Browse content similar to 02/05/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Over 2,000 senior figures in the public service are employed on | :00:11. | :00:16. | |
deals that may allow them to pay less tax. This letter, leaked to | :00:16. | :00:19. | |
Newsnight, makes plain the extent of special arrangements that | :00:19. | :00:23. | |
trouble the Treasury. How do these deals get done? How | :00:24. | :00:28. | |
much might it cost the taxpayer to end them? | :00:28. | :00:31. | |
Virtually impossible he did it himself, but no indication of who | :00:31. | :00:36. | |
else might have been involved, an inquest leaves the death of an MI6 | :00:36. | :00:41. | |
operative, an abiding mystery. The coroner today blamed the | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
Intelligence Service and the police for mistakes that may have made | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
this case harder to solve. And she said she believed it was an | :00:48. | :00:51. | |
unlawful killing. The two men wrestling for the | :00:51. | :00:55. | |
presidency of France slug it out this evening, we review their | :00:55. | :00:59. | |
performances. A last flush of campaigning in the | :00:59. | :01:04. | |
elections in Wales tomorrow. Although there are some obstacles | :01:04. | :01:14. | |
:01:14. | :01:17. | ||
to overcome. See you on Thursday. That is if I'm awake, mind. In his | :01:17. | :01:21. | |
budget statement the Chancellor described aggressive tax avoidance | :01:21. | :01:25. | |
as morally repugnant, yet now we learn there are thousands of senior | :01:25. | :01:28. | |
figures in the public sector, who knows maybe even in the Treasury, | :01:28. | :01:32. | |
maybe even in George Osborne's office, working on arrangements | :01:32. | :01:36. | |
which do not require them to pay tax at source. Newsnight as | :01:36. | :01:40. | |
obtained the results of the inquiry, ordered after we revealed that the | :01:40. | :01:46. | |
boss of Student Loans Company was on a similar deal. | :01:46. | :01:52. | |
It is a letter to the Chancellor, George Osborne, from the Chief | :01:52. | :01:56. | |
Treasury Secretary, Danny Alexander. It is marked "restricted", no | :01:56. | :02:00. | |
wonder. It contains the information that over 2,000, highly-paid, | :02:00. | :02:05. | |
senior public servants, are working off the payroll, avoiding tax. | :02:05. | :02:10. | |
The tax arrangements of the head of the student lone company, Ed Lester, | :02:10. | :02:15. | |
raised a stink earlier this year, when we revealed he was being paid | :02:15. | :02:20. | |
by the Government through a private company, based on his home on the | :02:20. | :02:25. | |
Thames t reduced his tax bill by the thousands. It seems over 2,000 | :02:25. | :02:30. | |
other public servants are doing the same. I am completely shocked. When | :02:30. | :02:34. | |
Newsnight first broke this story, I thought it was a rogue individual. | :02:34. | :02:39. | |
What we have now learned from this letter is it is endemic across the | :02:40. | :02:42. | |
senior Civil Service. This is particularly important here, | :02:42. | :02:47. | |
because what the public sector should be doing is leading by | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
example. The Whitehall letter was first obtained by David Hencke was | :02:51. | :02:58. | |
investigative website Xaro News, he says the thousands the Government | :02:58. | :03:06. | |
has identified as "off-payroll" is larger. It it doesn't include the | :03:06. | :03:11. | |
whole of the NHS or the academy schools and other places. It is far | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
worse than 2000, you suspect? worse. And it is extraordinary that | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
we have had a Government in for two years, and this has been going on, | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
without ministers having the slightest clue, that this was | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
happening. Election Alexander, who signed off | :03:26. | :03:32. | |
on Ed Lester arrangements, suggests, in his leaked letter, he's shocked | :03:32. | :03:40. | |
by the sheer scale of the "off- payroll deals" involving civil | :03:40. | :03:44. | |
servants, that is people earning a certain amount of money. He wants | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
board members and senior officers to be compelled to go on staff. He | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
wants full details of income tax and national insurance for anyone | :03:52. | :03:57. | |
engaged for more than six months and paid more than �220 a day, he | :03:57. | :04:02. | |
wants it all brought in in three months. A Treasury adviser told me | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
at least they are doing something, the last Government did nothing, | :04:06. | :04:13. | |
after being questioned about the leak. This is a cabinet that has | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
called excessive tax avoidance as morally repugnant. But they could | :04:17. | :04:23. | |
be biting off more than they can chew looking at these payroll deals. | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
Base cost is the national insurance that Government would have to find. | :04:27. | :04:35. | |
On �58,200, that would bring in, per person, an additional �8 though | :04:35. | :04:45. | |
:04:45. | :04:46. | ||
031, of cost, -- �8,031, and brings an extra cost in. That is only that | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
amount, if they were earning more than that? If the earnings are | :04:49. | :04:56. | |
greater, I would have expected the average to be between �75,000- | :04:56. | :05:01. | |
�80,000 a year, with a number of that 2,000 earning well in excess | :05:01. | :05:06. | |
of �100,000. What will the cost be in national insurance contributions | :05:06. | :05:08. | |
overall? The cost in national insurance would be in the region of | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
�30 million a year. On top of that there are pensions, holiday pay, | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
and a variety of statutory employment rights. The danger is, | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
if it is not handled carefully, recouping lost tax revenue could | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
cost the country a fortune. Meanwhile, what's the position of | :05:22. | :05:30. | |
the people whose job it is to chase down tax avoidance? I find it | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
astonishing that the Revenue & Customs don't seem to have spotted | :05:33. | :05:40. | |
this. Either they knew all about it, and like Ed Lester approved it all, | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
or else they didn't seem to be doing their job very well. Because | :05:43. | :05:48. | |
how have all these people, who may only have one major controlling job, | :05:48. | :05:55. | |
managed to escape tax and national insurance. A story that began at Ed | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
Lester's private company on the Thames, has dredged up thousands of | :05:59. | :06:01. | |
tax avoidance deals in the Government. The Treasury Secretary | :06:01. | :06:09. | |
believes he can change it all in three months. An ambitious man. | :06:09. | :06:14. | |
Let's discuss this with the Conservative MP Richard Bacon, with | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
Emma Boon of the Taxpayers' Alliance, and the General Secretary | :06:18. | :06:23. | |
of the FDA, the trade union for top civil servants. 2,000, are you | :06:23. | :06:29. | |
surprised it is so high? actually, when we last discussed it, | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
I said it was wider than we expect. I think it is rife across the local | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
Government and health service. health service isn't even included | :06:35. | :06:40. | |
in these figures? Indeed it is not, but the letter today suggests the | :06:40. | :06:42. | |
Health Secretary and the Education Secretary should take a close look | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
in their areas, that is right. Goodness knows it may even be | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
possible that one or two people are doing it in the BBC. Quite possible, | :06:50. | :06:55. | |
I don't know who? I don't either. But there are people like Reed | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
Consulting, and Henar, who are employing people who work for the | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
BBC. There is a lot of it going on, I think it is wrong. Where people | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
are public servants they should pay tax. Hang on a second, some of | :07:07. | :07:13. | |
these people may be your members, is it legitimate? At senior levels, | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
this should not be happening. If you are at a board level | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
appointment, in the Civil Service, you should be fully employed by the | :07:19. | :07:22. | |
department. In fact, I think most people R I think we will find that | :07:22. | :07:27. | |
most of these 2,000 people are not in senior roles, many of them, in | :07:27. | :07:33. | |
fact, will not be in the Civil Service, they will be in arm's | :07:33. | :07:37. | |
length quangos or bodies, they will be technical consultants, IT and HR | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
and other technical professions. That does happen in the wider | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
economy, where you have short-term posts. What I found disturbing was | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
the length of time some of these people had been in this kind of | :07:48. | :07:53. | |
role, paid off the books. As you know, Ed Lester, this was a senior | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
figure, he ran the Student Loan Company? I don't know if anybody | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
will defend that, actually. Most is senior civil servants were pretty | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
upset about it. Most people pay their taxes, and expect to, they | :08:05. | :08:08. | |
think it is very unfair if colleagues are not being treated in | :08:08. | :08:12. | |
exactly the same way. From a Taxpayers' Alliance point of view, | :08:12. | :08:17. | |
this may actually be saving the taxpayer money? I don't think it is, | :08:17. | :08:21. | |
though. We don't know? First of all, it is the sense of unfairness about | :08:21. | :08:26. | |
it is an important fact. You can't look at this blindly from an | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
economic perspective and say is this saving us money. The situation | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
here, these people are claiming that they are consultants, these | :08:34. | :08:38. | |
people n many cases, have been working for up to two years in the | :08:38. | :08:43. | |
same post. 40% of them over two years? May have only had one client, | :08:43. | :08:47. | |
being paid in this way, and not paying your tax through PAYE and | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
having it deducted at source, and paying national insurance | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
contributions, as you should, and sitting alongside people in the | :08:54. | :08:57. | |
same office, doing a very similar role, who are paying a lot more tax | :08:57. | :09:02. | |
than you are, is unfair, and secondly of all, these people claim | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
they are consultants. They are clearly doing something that should | :09:06. | :09:10. | |
be as a salaried role, they should pay through PAYE, like everybody | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
else. We don't know precisely what they are doing, do we? We do need | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
more details about that. What happens next? Two marks out of | :09:18. | :09:22. | |
three, certainly one-and-a-half marks out of three for the Treasury | :09:22. | :09:27. | |
part starting to dig into this and get to the Bart -- starting to dig | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
into this and get to the bottom of it. It is all very well for an | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
edict to come out of the Terek and I welcome it, today the equality | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
and Human Rights Commission, I was told today agreed an existing 17 | :09:40. | :09:43. | |
interims to be continued for a further year. It is one thing for | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
the Treasury to say something, but for it to actually happen on the | :09:46. | :09:51. | |
ground is another. I would expect there are a lot of people in the | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
administration who would like to continue in the old sweet way | :09:54. | :09:59. | |
continuing for many years, it will big rigour and political drive from | :09:59. | :10:05. | |
the top to deal with it. I hope George Osborne will go further, | :10:05. | :10:08. | |
David Cameron is very concerned about this, he wrote me a letter | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
saying that, they have to take this very, very seriously. You think | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
there is a good chance that the Government will break contracts | :10:14. | :10:20. | |
that it has legally entered into it? It is not easy to break | :10:20. | :10:26. | |
contracts, it depending on what they say, you don't want to make | :10:26. | :10:30. | |
lawyers rich. In the interim they should be able to break and get rid | :10:30. | :10:35. | |
of with break clauses fairly easily. These people can't have it both | :10:35. | :10:40. | |
ways, they can't be paid as interim staff and then claim the rights of | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
people on the payroll, it is a different way of being employed. | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
it is necessary to change the law, we changed the law in shopping | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
hours for the Olympics and in the last few minutes of the last | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
session in parliament. If they want a quick bill they can have one, I | :10:54. | :11:01. | |
can get it through. We might be able to put on bells and whistles | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
and get a bypass for my area as well. If you look at how long this | :11:05. | :11:08. | |
has been going on, according to the letter 40% of these people have | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
been on these kind of contracts for at least two years, going back to | :11:12. | :11:15. | |
the previous Government as well. There are long-term issues here as | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
well. For those people in senior roles, rather than the contractors, | :11:18. | :11:22. | |
there is an issue about pay levels in the senior Civil Service, which | :11:22. | :11:25. | |
often are below, this is being used as a way of getting round some of | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
the pay levels. We need an intelligent debate about fair | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
levels of pay in senior roles.S That the argument used to justify | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
this sort of arrangement, that it is the only way to get people in | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
from the private sector? I don't think it justifies that, I think it | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
highlights that there is an issue about where we set pay levels. | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
Public sector pay levels will never mirror the private sector, I don't | :11:50. | :11:55. | |
think most people will say they should, you have to have an | :11:55. | :11:58. | |
intelligent debate. Recently we have had a different approach to | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
recruitment bans and freezes, we need to get round it. We need to be | :12:02. | :12:05. | |
intelligent about it, you shouldn't be holding a senior management role | :12:05. | :12:09. | |
and being paid in this way, it is unethical. If the consequence was | :12:09. | :12:12. | |
you drove away talented people who said they wouldn't work here any mo, | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
they will go back to the private sector or wherever they have come | :12:15. | :12:21. | |
from, that would be bad from a tax- payers' point of view, wouldn't it? | :12:21. | :12:23. | |
Nobody will say we will drive away talented people, there is a | :12:24. | :12:29. | |
difference between want to go hire and retain staff at a senior level | :12:29. | :12:33. | |
of the Civil Service, and want to go renumerate them well and pay a | :12:33. | :12:38. | |
pension and retain them. And short- term contracts like an IT expert, | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
for a short period of time in a specific project, paying them in a | :12:42. | :12:46. | |
different way and they make their own tax arrangements, these are | :12:46. | :12:52. | |
different things that shouldn't be confused. How is it that the Civil | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
Service is still the fast stream, we take the brightest people into | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
the Civil Service, but the career formation and the way the culture | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
is structured as such, that 20 years later, they are not all, by | :13:01. | :13:04. | |
any means n a position to take top management roles. They don't have | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
the management skills to marshall the combination of people, money | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
and time and technology in the way that any manager has to do to fill | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
the top roles. That is why 40% of director-generals are coming from | :13:16. | :13:20. | |
the outside. It is a good thing providing fresh blood. But at the | :13:20. | :13:25. | |
bottom of the Civil Service, with the fast stream, there is still a | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
big unresolved issue there in terms of career formation, it needs to be | :13:29. | :13:33. | |
addressed. There are other issues around skills formation. Why isn't | :13:33. | :13:37. | |
Government able to generate good IT people, for example. To be fair I | :13:37. | :13:41. | |
don't think we have been very successful in some of the HR roles. | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
We need to stand back and see what skills you need in central | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
Government and the wider public sector over the next five to ten | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
years. Generate the people with the skills and pay them in a way that | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
keeps them and doesn't just leave them trained up and then rushing | :13:53. | :13:58. | |
out into the private sector to get very much higher pay. For you the | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
decisive thing is do these people have managerial responsibility as | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
opposed to being a specialist? think that is important, if you are | :14:07. | :14:10. | |
in a senior management role, board level or below that, there is no | :14:10. | :14:13. | |
question these arrangements shouldn't operate. That should be | :14:13. | :14:17. | |
the same in the arm's length bodies. The Ed Lester case, without the | :14:17. | :14:21. | |
detail of that, highlighted an anomily, it was not right, it | :14:21. | :14:24. | |
shouldn't have happened, it was clearly happening under the last | :14:24. | :14:26. | |
Government, it is continuing under this Government, it shouldn't be | :14:26. | :14:31. | |
the case. We also have to recognise on the short-term, technical | :14:31. | :14:38. | |
specialists, this is an economy- wide issue. A coroner trying to | :14:38. | :14:42. | |
decide how a brilliant young MI6 operative met his death has failed | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
to come up with an answer. The best she could manage was a narrative | :14:46. | :14:50. | |
verdict. How Gareth Williams ended up naked and dead inside a locked | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
bag remains a mistreatment the inquest did disclose some unusual | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
behaviour by the MI6 man, by one of the world's crack intelligence | :14:58. | :15:01. | |
agencies and by the police. Someone else must have been involved. But | :15:01. | :15:11. | |
:15:11. | :15:12. | ||
there is no answer as to who. Our diplomatic editor reports. Williams, | :15:12. | :15:19. | |
a maths prodigy who joined GCHQ aged 21, with a degree and PhD | :15:19. | :15:25. | |
under his belt. Fit, brilliant but complex, when sent on attachment to | :15:25. | :15:30. | |
MI6, unhappy with work. Even after a week's hearings, his death is | :15:30. | :15:40. | |
:15:40. | :15:53. | ||
little clearer. The coroner, Fiona Little comfort, then, for a family | :15:53. | :15:59. | |
still morning its loss. Our grief is exacerbated by the failure of | :15:59. | :16:04. | |
his employers at MI6 to take even the most basic inquiries as to his | :16:04. | :16:08. | |
where abouts and welfare, which any reasonable employer would have | :16:08. | :16:11. | |
taken. We are also extremely disappointed over the reluctance | :16:11. | :16:16. | |
and failure of MI6 to make available relevant information. | :16:16. | :16:25. | |
This was the scene at an MI6 flat in PIMCO in cough 2010. -- August | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
2010 women's designer clothing lay carefully bagged, and arrayed on | :16:29. | :16:34. | |
the bed. Mr Williams had spent more than �20,000 on his collection. | :16:34. | :16:39. | |
There was a red wig too, and other personal collections. These | :16:39. | :16:49. | |
:16:49. | :16:55. | ||
discoveries soon leaked out, the In the bathroom, his naked body lay | :16:55. | :17:00. | |
in a zipped up waterproof sports bag. It had festered for eight days | :17:01. | :17:08. | |
in the August heat, before it was finally found. But why had his MI6 | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
bosses allowed so much time to pass before getting the police involved. | :17:12. | :17:17. | |
They apologised for that today, and insisted they would change their | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
procedures. I think the delay that happened in reporting the fact that | :17:21. | :17:24. | |
he was missing was highly unfortunate, it is very disturbing | :17:24. | :17:28. | |
that it happened. To be fair to the Secret Intelligence Service, they | :17:28. | :17:31. | |
themselves have acknowledged that was a serious fault. They have | :17:31. | :17:34. | |
apologised for that. They are making sure that kind of thing | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
can't happen again. I have no reason to believe it was systemic. | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
But it certainly shouldn't have happened on that occasion. | :17:42. | :17:47. | |
coroner's court saw evidence like this, an expert trying to zip | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
himself into the bag and lock it. The witnesses felt it was virtually | :17:51. | :17:57. | |
impossible to do that alone. Was he forced in, or was it consensual, | :17:57. | :18:02. | |
maybe a sex game gone wrong. Forensic experts would have found | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
that question easier to answer, if the body had been found after just | :18:05. | :18:13. | |
a day or two. The body, particularly in a summer months and | :18:13. | :18:18. | |
warm environment, starts to undergo changes after death quite rapidly, | :18:18. | :18:24. | |
within a day or so. Particularly if the body is enclosed within another | :18:24. | :18:29. | |
compartment, such as a suitcase, or a bag or something like that. | :18:29. | :18:34. | |
Because there is no air currents there, and therefore, the botty | :18:34. | :18:40. | |
will become discoloured. Marks such as bruises, scratches, that kind of | :18:40. | :18:45. | |
thing, will not be visible. It also emerged this week, that MI6 | :18:45. | :18:50. | |
was in possession of computer flash drive, memory device, and a similar | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
sports bag used by Mr Williams. The investigating detectives hadn't | :18:53. | :18:59. | |
known about that. Because the specialist police liaising with MI6 | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
hadn't told them. The coroner was unhappy about it. But could the | :19:03. | :19:08. | |
police have pushed harder? I think you do have quite a difficult | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
procedural problem, that always applies in a democracy, where you | :19:11. | :19:16. | |
have Secret Services, which by their nature handle information | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
that simply cannot be brought into the public domain, without real | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
damage to the national security interest. And a police inquiry, or | :19:23. | :19:27. | |
the normal interests of justice. We are always grappling with how you | :19:27. | :19:32. | |
create struck tour that is meet that requirement. Summing up today, | :19:32. | :19:36. | |
the coroner avoided a specific verdict, and said much was still | :19:36. | :19:46. | |
:19:46. | :19:53. | ||
unclear. Yet at the end of her At the end of her narrative, the | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
coroner expressed her sympathies to Mr Williams family. And her voice | :19:57. | :20:03. | |
faltered with emotion as she did so. In truth, of course, this inquest, | :20:03. | :20:08. | |
because it has failed to answer so many key questions, will not give | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
the former intelligence officer's family the closure they desire. It | :20:12. | :20:17. | |
will also leave the way open for those who wish to spin conspiracy | :20:17. | :20:22. | |
theories about his death. Outside the police were adamant their | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
investigation goes on. And their appeal to someone who may have been | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
with Gareth Williams that August night, revealed something about | :20:30. | :20:35. | |
their assumptions of how he may have died. It's highly likely that | :20:35. | :20:41. | |
a third party was involved in Gareth's death. I urge anyone who | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
knows Gareth, who had contact with him, to search their conscience and | :20:46. | :20:53. | |
come forward with any information about what happened that night, on | :20:53. | :20:57. | |
the 16th of August 2010. The last hours of Gareth Williams and the | :20:57. | :21:03. | |
events in his flat will continue to excite comment to the sorrow of his | :21:03. | :21:06. | |
family. But investigators believe there could still be a good chance | :21:06. | :21:11. | |
of solving the case, even if that takes years. | :21:11. | :21:17. | |
Philip Davies is director of the Brunel Centre for Intelligence and | :21:17. | :21:22. | |
Security Studies, Harry Ferguson is a former MI6 officer. This is | :21:22. | :21:26. | |
highly embarrassing for MI6? coming on top of rendition and the | :21:26. | :21:30. | |
Iraq war it is a series of incidents. The problem being, in | :21:30. | :21:35. | |
large part, that MI6, or SIS, does not seem like a concerned employer, | :21:35. | :21:40. | |
it took them a terribly long time to realise that he was gone. Then | :21:40. | :21:44. | |
to snotify anybody, and then there is -- notify anybody, then there is | :21:44. | :21:48. | |
all the other events afterwards? can see a couple of possible | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
factors that might have been driving it. One of them might be | :21:52. | :22:00. | |
that he was a GCHQ officer, on se connedment to SIS, the operations | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
have been high because of Afghanistan, it is conceivable | :22:04. | :22:10. | |
people might have thought he was yanked back to GCHQ, and waiting | :22:10. | :22:14. | |
for a memo. If they thought he was doing something risky and | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
inappropriate, they would have rather than make a report and a | :22:17. | :22:22. | |
security vetting process, and ruin his career, they thought they would | :22:22. | :22:27. | |
take it up with him informally. didn't turn up to a meeting? | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
Sometimes people don't. What do you make of it? Somebody dropped the | :22:31. | :22:36. | |
Bill ball. You wouldn't allow that kind of -- Somebody dropped the | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
ball. You wouldn't allow that kind of thing happening in any | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
organisation. He could have been kidnapped, extremist groups in this | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
country could have decided to nab something, it is a big enough | :22:48. | :22:57. | |
building, it is not the Cold War, but seven days is a long time. All | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
organisations make mistakes, like managers make mistakes, it is clear | :23:00. | :23:05. | |
from the inquest that no action was taken against line managers. That | :23:05. | :23:09. | |
SIS didn't feel any action was necessary to correct this. That is | :23:09. | :23:13. | |
worrying. What should they have done? They should have immediately | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
sent someone around to the flat and found out where he was. I was on a | :23:17. | :23:21. | |
radio programme earlier on, an old hand in the 1960s, he said in his | :23:21. | :23:26. | |
day, if you were an hour late for work, somebody was out trying to | :23:26. | :23:31. | |
find out where you were. Classic Cold War times, but even so. This | :23:31. | :23:37. | |
was a guy on attachment from GCHQ, it is not as if he was a top secret, | :23:37. | :23:44. | |
he was a spy? That was a guy so valuable he was to assist on SIS | :23:44. | :23:50. | |
operations from GCHQ, he had knowledge through cryptography, | :23:50. | :23:52. | |
extremely valuable. You have somebody not part of your | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
organisation, you are responsible for them. It is like a guest in | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
your family. If they go missing you should know. It is like looking | :23:59. | :24:01. | |
after somebody else's child. It is very important. Because he worked | :24:01. | :24:06. | |
in a small unit, and he's an outsider, they let this go. What do | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
you imagine will be going through the mind of senior people in the | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
Intelligence Service now? I would imagine there will be serious | :24:14. | :24:18. | |
thinking about their own security protocols, revisiting vetting | :24:18. | :24:23. | |
standards. They may be wondering if there were things to be picked up | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
during his regular vetting top-ups. The other thing to keep in mind is | :24:27. | :24:37. | |
:24:37. | :24:40. | ||
he's a GCHQ guy on se connedment to SIS, I conned -- se conneded to SIS, | :24:40. | :24:44. | |
I wonder what the relations are like between the two groups, he was | :24:44. | :24:49. | |
in their care. Are you not uncomfortable about the stuff about | :24:49. | :24:52. | |
his private life that was leaked? We don't know enough about how or | :24:52. | :24:56. | |
why it was leaked. I don't want to say more before I have formed any | :24:57. | :24:59. | |
particular judgment about that. It was odd, but on the whole, the | :24:59. | :25:04. | |
whole evidence trail, part of this problem has been handled relatively | :25:04. | :25:07. | |
poorly. The say SIS handled material that should have been | :25:07. | :25:11. | |
subject to chain of evidence standards. And the SO15 officer | :25:11. | :25:15. | |
should have been more attentive to these things. It was suggested that | :25:15. | :25:20. | |
the S015 guy was there as an intelligence liaison Counter | :25:20. | :25:23. | |
terrorism policing and SIS operational activities. If you | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
think people are doing CID chain of evidence responsibilities, that is | :25:27. | :25:30. | |
a slightly different professional interest. And entirely different | :25:30. | :25:36. | |
sort of policeman one might say? The police do seem to have acted | :25:36. | :25:40. | |
oddly in this? It is very difficult for them. You are dealing with a | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
secret organisation, you can't go in and use a search warrant, you | :25:44. | :25:48. | |
can't question witnesses, you have to rely on what you told. Yvette | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
Cooper said in the Intelligence Security Committee, the problem is | :25:52. | :25:58. | |
you can't control what you are told, you are told by the people what you | :25:58. | :26:01. | |
need to know about, that is the problem for the police, it is a | :26:01. | :26:06. | |
closed world. A lot of the officers are star struck by the fact they | :26:06. | :26:10. | |
are dealing with spooks for real, and don't push it hard enough when | :26:10. | :26:14. | |
they are investigating. This is even a more peculiar quality about | :26:14. | :26:20. | |
this, of course we had the police, mostly in the form of indoctrinated | :26:20. | :26:26. | |
Special Branch practitioners, go into Vauxhall Cross, as part of the | :26:26. | :26:30. | |
death of Princess Diana. They had effectively free run of the central | :26:30. | :26:34. | |
registry. They were able to talk to the relevant officers and officials | :26:34. | :26:38. | |
involved. They had, it had to be conducted inside the headquarters. | :26:38. | :26:43. | |
The first point we said is that SIS has a precedent in being able to | :26:43. | :26:48. | |
take another investigation to come in and handle it. Possibly the | :26:48. | :26:50. | |
police are more familiar with how to do this now, than they would | :26:50. | :26:55. | |
have been in the old days. In which case, it is even more bizarre, even | :26:55. | :27:01. | |
more singular, that given you have got that legacy, that they handled | :27:01. | :27:03. | |
the investigatory chain of evidence side of things so poorly in The | :27:04. | :27:08. | |
Willy will case. It is more inconsistent with precedent. What | :27:08. | :27:14. | |
about all the stuff about visits to websites, and women's dresses and | :27:14. | :27:21. | |
all that sort of stuff. Are you surprised by that? Personally? Yes. | :27:21. | :27:29. | |
But not in terms of the service. In the 1970s Morris Oldfield, who some | :27:29. | :27:34. | |
believe was the basis for Smiley in the books, was found to be a | :27:34. | :27:39. | |
homosexual in later life, despite being vetted numerous times. The | :27:39. | :27:42. | |
new enhanced vetting process should put an end to this, you are | :27:42. | :27:45. | |
supposed to be honest, and once you are honest you are not | :27:45. | :27:48. | |
blackmailable. Not that he had these tendencies, if he did, but | :27:48. | :27:53. | |
the fact he never received the pastoral support a lonely guy, away | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
from home, should have received. He worked in a small unit, and from | :27:57. | :28:02. | |
all the evidence given to the unit, he was left pretty much to his | :28:02. | :28:05. | |
devices. That is a security breach waiting to happen, even if it is | :28:05. | :28:09. | |
not a personal tragedy, as it is in this case. I agree with that. I | :28:09. | :28:14. | |
will leave it with that. I agree with that entirely. Do you think we | :28:14. | :28:18. | |
will ever get to the bottom of this? It is very, very rare that | :28:18. | :28:22. | |
something remains a mystery indefinitely? It could be quite a | :28:22. | :28:27. | |
long time before we do. If they have opened up new alternative | :28:27. | :28:30. | |
routes for conducting the investigation, there is a decent | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
chance they will come to the end of the trail. There is a non-zero | :28:34. | :28:39. | |
possibility, I wouldn't rule it out rbgts but the trail may lead abroad | :28:39. | :28:44. | |
--, but the trail may lead abroad, the third party may not be from the | :28:44. | :28:47. | |
UK, there could be a foreign interest here. What is your feeling, | :28:47. | :28:54. | |
will it ever be satisfactorily answered? No, SIS is a closed world, | :28:54. | :28:56. | |
there is no mechanism for investigating fully. The | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
intelligence committee was set up in the early days, they had an | :28:59. | :29:03. | |
investigator, he was quickly disposed of. You will never be able, | :29:03. | :29:08. | |
unless the right mechanisms are introduced, you will never get what | :29:08. | :29:10. | |
was really happening there. With the question of whether or not | :29:10. | :29:14. | |
there was someone involved, there was a failure of management and | :29:14. | :29:17. | |
Pastoral support here. That is the real worry. | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
In a moment we will have reaction to the French presidential debate | :29:21. | :29:25. | |
that finish add few moments ago, a mere two-and-a-half hours after it | :29:25. | :29:27. | |
started. While the people of France are | :29:27. | :29:29. | |
preparing to choose their President, the people of Wales are readying | :29:29. | :29:33. | |
themselves to pick new local authorities. The entire country, | :29:33. | :29:37. | |
apart from Anglesey, which is caught in some space time | :29:37. | :29:41. | |
discontinuum, and doesn't have elections until next year, gets to | :29:41. | :29:44. | |
choose tomorrow. There will be a big troubling question for Wales, | :29:44. | :29:47. | |
not answered by tomorrow's elections, sadly, is what on earth | :29:47. | :29:52. | |
has gone wrong with education there. Since it got its own Government, | :29:52. | :30:02. | |
:30:02. | :30:11. | ||
relative achievement has plummeted. On a sodden May Day in Caerphilly, | :30:11. | :30:16. | |
even Tommy Cooper, the town's funnyiest son, is looking too grey | :30:16. | :30:20. | |
to lift spirits. With the prospects of tomorrow's local elections it is | :30:20. | :30:25. | |
hard to spot. But Caerphilly, fought over before, is again a key, | :30:25. | :30:35. | |
:30:35. | :30:37. | ||
if not a lower key battleground. Labour is key to regain this | :30:37. | :30:42. | |
council, in a valleys heartland, before four years of a Plaid Cymru | :30:42. | :30:45. | |
administration. Keen enough to combat the rain and a certain lack | :30:45. | :30:49. | |
of voter commitment. Thank you very much for your time. I'll be there. | :30:49. | :30:56. | |
See you on Thursday. That's if I'm awake! Strictly local problems will | :30:56. | :30:59. | |
help decide the election. So too will views on questions which | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
affect all of Wales, such as schools. Education is an important | :31:04. | :31:09. | |
issue in the campaign. Pupils' attainment level in Wales have | :31:09. | :31:13. | |
fallen steadily since devolution, they are now lower than in England, | :31:13. | :31:19. | |
Scotland or Northern Ireland. The question now, does Wales need more | :31:19. | :31:22. | |
English-style reforms, testing, league tables, independence for | :31:22. | :31:29. | |
schools, or should it preserve its own, more comprehensive approach? | :31:29. | :31:33. | |
Tests of a sample number of Welsh 15-year-olds, under the | :31:33. | :31:39. | |
international assessment, show a decline in reading ability between | :31:39. | :31:49. | |
:31:49. | :31:58. | ||
The Welsh Education Minister said it was an unacceptable performance | :31:58. | :32:02. | |
in overall attainment. These pupils show what can be achieved. Their | :32:02. | :32:07. | |
school is one of the best in Wales. 85% here are from families classed | :32:08. | :32:17. | |
:32:18. | :32:18. | ||
as deprived. Science, like all other objects, except English, is | :32:18. | :32:23. | |
taught in Welsh. Only 2% of pupils in this school speak Welsh at home. | :32:23. | :32:26. | |
But Welsh education, here and in other parts of Wales, is | :32:26. | :32:34. | |
increasingly popular. Bileft-wing usualism itself promote | :32:34. | :32:41. | |
-- biling ualism itself promotes cognitive thinking. They might read | :32:41. | :32:44. | |
it in English and discuss it in Welsh, they have to understand the | :32:44. | :32:47. | |
work to do that, it is not reproducing. Bringing all schools | :32:47. | :32:53. | |
up to the standards of this school will take a lot of extra cash. | :32:53. | :32:57. | |
Currently Wales spends �600 less a year on each pupil than England. | :32:57. | :33:01. | |
Labour says it will reduce the shortfall by spending at least 1% | :33:01. | :33:05. | |
more on education than the block grant the Welsh Government gets | :33:05. | :33:10. | |
from Westminster. It will give schools more control over the money. | :33:10. | :33:14. | |
It is about further investment going in, whether that is school | :33:14. | :33:18. | |
buildings or going into initiatives such as the foundation phase, such | :33:18. | :33:23. | |
as Flying Start, to look at their very young children and give that | :33:23. | :33:27. | |
extra support, at that age, and continue in the investment. It is | :33:27. | :33:33. | |
not a short-term fix, it is, over the long-term, and Welsh Labour are | :33:33. | :33:40. | |
in there for the long-term. Labour is bringing in other reforms too, | :33:40. | :33:44. | |
Wales abolished SATs tests and league tables, it is placing | :33:44. | :33:51. | |
schools into bands, according to reviews. Plaid Cymru shared power | :33:51. | :33:55. | |
with Labour until last year. There is several things we should be | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
doing, not to introduce the free market happening in England. We | :33:58. | :34:02. | |
were against academys, and banding that the Welsh Labour Government is | :34:02. | :34:06. | |
doing, we need to concentrate more on core skills, that is the reading | :34:06. | :34:10. | |
and writing skills, ensuring those are there and safely there. | :34:10. | :34:16. | |
The Welsh Assembly in Cardiff Bay was set up to enable Wales to find | :34:16. | :34:19. | |
distinctively Welsh solutions to Welsh problems. But in the fierce | :34:19. | :34:23. | |
debates here, over education, some have questioned whether the country | :34:23. | :34:28. | |
has now diverged too far in policy. Welsh Conservatives want schools | :34:28. | :34:32. | |
all still council controlled, to be able to free themselves from the | :34:33. | :34:37. | |
local authorities as they can in England. We have to look at what | :34:37. | :34:41. | |
suits Wales. Where I am uncomfortable, is we will look at | :34:41. | :34:45. | |
anything, anything, as long as it is not exactly the same as England. | :34:45. | :34:51. | |
Because that, I think, is totally self-defeating. If we want to be | :34:51. | :34:55. | |
the best of the best, we must look at the best of the best and | :34:56. | :34:58. | |
implement that. Liberal Democrats talk more of working through local | :34:58. | :35:02. | |
authorities. Our view is that there is a need to look at the inspection | :35:02. | :35:06. | |
regime, and the quality of school leaders. And, perhaps, to have more | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
robustle cha eing, the reality as far as local Government is | :35:09. | :35:14. | |
concerned. Is that ultimately they are responsible for those school | :35:14. | :35:17. | |
improvement services. Certainly there is a lot of work to be done. | :35:17. | :35:21. | |
The decisions of the assembly and the Welsh Government wofpbt be | :35:21. | :35:24. | |
directly affected by tomorrow -- won't be directly affected by | :35:24. | :35:28. | |
tomorrow's elections, the vote will certainly reflect the changing | :35:28. | :35:32. | |
political mood, in a country whose confidence in its ability to | :35:32. | :35:35. | |
educate its young people, has now been severely shaken. | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
The last big event of the fight for the presidency of France ended a | :35:39. | :35:43. | |
few minutes ago. Nicolas Sarkozy and his socialist challenger, | :35:43. | :35:47. | |
Francois Hollande, squared up on television for a knock them down, | :35:47. | :35:51. | |
drag them out debate, which mattered more to Sarkozy than | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
Hollande. Not a single poll has shown Sarkozy will hang on to the | :35:55. | :35:58. | |
presidency. Hollande might have had a charisma bypass, but he offers | :35:58. | :36:04. | |
France, and he says the rest of Europe, an alternative to austerity. | :36:04. | :36:14. | |
:36:14. | :36:18. | ||
Who can forget thiser receiptically charged classic of French cinemas | :36:18. | :36:24. | |
seen here on a lovingly curated print from the Newsnight vaults. On | :36:24. | :36:31. | |
TV screens across France tonight, another red-hot tete-a-tete, not | :36:31. | :36:38. | |
Belle De Jour this time, mais non, it is beau de jour, as France | :36:38. | :36:42. | |
decides who will be her consort for the next five years. First to | :36:42. | :36:50. | |
arrive for a televised debate, the French socialist, Francois Hollande, | :36:50. | :36:57. | |
nicknamed flamy, because he's sweet and comforting, no bland and a bit | :36:57. | :37:01. | |
wobbly. Then the incumbent, Nicolas Sarkozy, accompanied by his wife, | :37:01. | :37:05. | |
the former model, Carla Bruni, who seemed to take her low-key | :37:05. | :37:15. | |
:37:15. | :37:16. | ||
sartorial cue, from her husband. As a giant clock ensured equal time | :37:16. | :37:18. | |
for interlocuteurs, Hollande accused Sarkozy of passing the buck | :37:19. | :37:23. | |
for the country's problems. TRANSLATION: It is never your fault, | :37:23. | :37:27. | |
5-10% of unemployment is not your fault either, it is the fault of | :37:27. | :37:30. | |
the crisis. You are never responsible, are you. Watched by | :37:30. | :37:33. | |
their pert, Prime Minister time hosts, the two men also traded | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
views on the safety or otherwise of nuclear power, following the | :37:37. | :37:42. | |
disaster in Japan. TRANSLATION: have the safest nuclear energy in | :37:42. | :37:50. | |
the world, it is recognised as such, in Fukasima it was not the energy, | :37:50. | :37:56. | |
it was the tsunami, as you know. As part of our commitment to | :37:57. | :38:00. | |
covering the French elections, Newsnight has these exclusive | :38:00. | :38:05. | |
pictures from inside a French restaurant in London tonight. | :38:06. | :38:09. | |
Where supporters of Monsieur Sarkozy have been following the | :38:09. | :38:15. | |
debate and emotions are running high. Back in the French capital, | :38:15. | :38:20. | |
the exchanges were growing increasingly tense, and personal. | :38:20. | :38:25. | |
TRANSLATION: You can't stop people to vote for me, no more than I can | :38:25. | :38:30. | |
call for your, the people who support you to vote in your favour. | :38:30. | :38:37. | |
But having said that, you wanted to be a victim of five years, France | :38:37. | :38:42. | |
has been hurt, divided, has suffered. So many words have been | :38:42. | :38:47. | |
said, not by some of your assistants, but by yourself. In | :38:47. | :38:50. | |
that kind of debate. Please let me tell you. | :38:50. | :38:54. | |
TRANSLATION: In that kind of debate, please, let me tell you, enough | :38:54. | :38:58. | |
difficulties are a problem, enough things I have managed to do, others | :38:58. | :39:04. | |
I have not succeeded to do. We don't need to add outrageous words | :39:04. | :39:08. | |
and lies. The politicians also clashed over immigration, and | :39:08. | :39:16. | |
France's cultural identity. Quite a warm-up for Sunday's decisive vote. | :39:16. | :39:21. | |
Here now, different to the agenda, but simply divided, two candidates | :39:21. | :39:24. | |
hoping to be the first member of the French National Assembly | :39:24. | :39:27. | |
representing the seat of northern Europe. French people living | :39:28. | :39:31. | |
everywhere from Iceland to Finland, since most of them live in west | :39:31. | :39:35. | |
London, it is known as the constituency to most as south | :39:35. | :39:42. | |
Kensington. What for you was the most exciting | :39:42. | :39:46. | |
point of this debate? I think the first time Nicolas Sarkozy could | :39:46. | :39:50. | |
ask the real questions to Francois Hollande. Until now he didn't want | :39:50. | :39:54. | |
to answer any questions, he was complete low avoiding any debate. | :39:54. | :39:58. | |
It was a good -- completely avoiding any debate. It was a good | :39:58. | :40:03. | |
starting point to have finally a debate. You take a complete low | :40:03. | :40:07. | |
contrary view, being of the opposite persuasion. What was the | :40:07. | :40:12. | |
exciting moment in it? It was all in all to see that Mr Hollande has | :40:12. | :40:17. | |
a very strong personality. He was both firm, stable, convincing, | :40:17. | :40:22. | |
straight forward, where as Mr Sarkozy appeared as irrational, | :40:22. | :40:28. | |
nervous, he was both patronising and appearing as a victim. That's | :40:28. | :40:34. | |
not what we want as President. is Francois Hollande so dull, then, | :40:34. | :40:39. | |
if he's so charasmatic in this debate? I think he has started his | :40:39. | :40:44. | |
campaign one year ago, he has defined a programme, he's sticking | :40:44. | :40:49. | |
to his line, sticking to his ideas. He has very convincing arguments, | :40:49. | :40:52. | |
and he doesn't keep changing his mind just like Mr Sarkozy has been | :40:52. | :40:56. | |
doing. There is also a chance he might be a bit nicer about Britain | :40:56. | :41:01. | |
than Mr Sarkozy has been? I think Francois Hollande is changing his | :41:01. | :41:06. | |
mind, he's proposing things which actually are not correct. Even the | :41:06. | :41:11. | |
number he presented time were not correct. So how could you trust | :41:11. | :41:16. | |
someone who doesn't know what he's talking about, and start to make | :41:16. | :41:18. | |
announcements and criticising Nicolas Sarkozy who is trying to do | :41:19. | :41:23. | |
his best to save France during the financial crisis. Interesting isn't | :41:23. | :41:26. | |
it that most French people don't share your analysis, not a single | :41:27. | :41:30. | |
poll showing Sarkozy will win? Today we had an extra point on the | :41:30. | :41:35. | |
poll today. We can see the French people start. Not enough to still? | :41:35. | :41:40. | |
We will see on Sunday. OK. I'm intrigued by the two of you, you | :41:40. | :41:44. | |
are sitting in the studio in London, discussing French politics, about | :41:44. | :41:49. | |
to face off against each other in a constituency which actually is not | :41:49. | :41:53. | |
in France at all. This is a very, very odd state of affairs, isn't | :41:53. | :41:57. | |
it? I don't know if it is odd, I think it is quite interesting and | :41:57. | :42:02. | |
progressive, this idea that French citizens can live abroad, so they | :42:02. | :42:06. | |
travel with their passport, and their right to vote. They keep this | :42:06. | :42:10. | |
political link to their country. What do you think of this, don't | :42:10. | :42:16. | |
you find it slightly bizarre? at all, for the last 30 years | :42:16. | :42:22. | |
French people have been asking to have a representative for French | :42:22. | :42:28. | |
people living abroad. I think it is a good step. One thing that is very | :42:28. | :42:31. | |
important, Francois Hollande actually voted against it t the | :42:31. | :42:37. | |
socialists are against it, so today it is very good. People are within | :42:37. | :42:40. | |
their rights to move out of France, because they find the tax regime, | :42:40. | :42:43. | |
for example, a bit burdensome, and still retain the right to choose | :42:43. | :42:49. | |
the Government there? It is no question of leaving the country to | :42:49. | :42:52. | |
avoid tax. For whatever reason they leave the country, some of them do | :42:52. | :42:59. | |
leave for that reason, as you know? That is onlyers of the expats. For | :42:59. | :43:04. | |
the 99 % of other French people living abroad, they represent | :43:04. | :43:08. | |
France, and work in French companies, or bring their expertise. | :43:08. | :43:13. | |
Also they come back to France. They have got another% pective of what | :43:13. | :43:17. | |
is going on in France -- perspective of what is going on in | :43:17. | :43:21. | |
France. Nicolas Sarkozy thinks the French people living abroad are | :43:21. | :43:25. | |
very important. Given how we know that French public opinion has | :43:25. | :43:29. | |
appeared to have divided thus far on the basis of the first round, | :43:29. | :43:33. | |
18% going to the French National Front. Isn't it very odd to see a | :43:33. | :43:39. | |
socialist candidate trying to get some of that vote? People who would | :43:39. | :43:41. | |
otherwise vote National Front? Believe me, if you watched the | :43:41. | :43:44. | |
debate this evening, you wouldn't think that Mr Hollande tried to | :43:45. | :43:51. | |
attract any votes. What he said is that he would be fair and tough on | :43:51. | :43:56. | |
security, just like the last socialist Government has been. But | :43:56. | :44:01. | |
he hasn't followed the line of Mr Sarkozy, which has been in the last | :44:01. | :44:09. | |
few weeks, talking about halal meat, swimming pools, women and men being | :44:09. | :44:15. | |
divided in swimming pools. Things that are not real concerns for the | :44:15. | :44:19. | |
French people. Your candidate, Mr Sarkozy, knows he needs to get some | :44:19. | :44:22. | |
of this National Front folk doesn't he? There is no question of getting | :44:22. | :44:27. | |
the vote of the National Front. It is a question of responding to 18% | :44:27. | :44:31. | |
of the population, who has those questions. In the real world he has | :44:31. | :44:35. | |
to get some of that vote in order to be in with a chance, right now | :44:35. | :44:40. | |
it doesn't looks a if he has much of a chance? We will see on Sunday. | :44:40. | :44:45. | |
In the real world, the Telegraph described the National Front as a | :44:45. | :44:52. | |
racist party, that is what it is. Aren't you uncomfortable at the | :44:52. | :44:56. | |
idea of trying to court that vote? A lot of people vote National Front, | :44:56. | :45:01. | |
not because they were for Marine Le Pen, it is because they wanted to | :45:01. | :45:06. | |
show they were not happy about some policies. They want some issues | :45:06. | :45:11. | |
related to immigration, because it is a big problem in France. Until | :45:11. | :45:16. | |
now, the immigration was only the issue of the National Front, and it | :45:16. | :45:18. | |
is now 18% of the population complaining about it. | :45:18. | :45:25. | |
We have to do something about it. Do you think when Monsieur Hollande | :45:25. | :45:29. | |
says he's going to offer Europe another model for how to deal with | :45:29. | :45:35. | |
this economic crisis, is he serious? I think he is. If he gets | :45:35. | :45:40. | |
elected by over 20-25 million French people, I think he would | :45:40. | :45:46. | |
benefit from a strong democratic legislative to put forward some new | :45:46. | :45:52. | |
proposals. He doesn't necessarily want to ask 25 other states to | :45:52. | :45:56. | |
forget about what they have agreed. He does claim there will be a | :45:56. | :46:02. | |
model? Yes, but he says he agrees with fiscal responsibility, he | :46:02. | :46:04. | |
thinks it is very important. He also reminded the French people | :46:04. | :46:08. | |
tonight that the public debt has been doubled under the right-wing | :46:09. | :46:14. | |
Government in France in the last ten years. So fiscal responsibility | :46:14. | :46:20. | |
is not necessarily where he is...That Is not right, it is | :46:20. | :46:30. | |
incorrect. It is incorrect. 250 billion were debts carried on since | :46:30. | :46:35. | |
1974. Also 200,000 billion of debts also from the financial crisis, and | :46:35. | :46:40. | |
all the other countries of Europe had it. So it is not that it is | :46:40. | :46:43. | |
coming from the five years of Nicolas Sarkozy. | :46:43. | :46:46. | |
Thank you very much. Tomorrow morning's front pages, | :46:46. | :46:52. | |
some of them, the Guardian goes with the story of the SIS operative | :46:52. | :46:59. | |
who was found dead in the suitcase, and the coroner unable to discern | :46:59. | :47:09. | |
:47:09. | :47:17. | ||
That's all from Newsnight tonight, Kirsty is here tomorrow after the | :47:17. | :47:27. | |
:47:27. | :47:48. | ||
polls close. Good evening, after a respite from | :47:48. | :47:51. | |
the rain it returns tonight into the morning, across the Midland, | :47:52. | :47:55. | |
southern England and Wales. Heavy downpours in places. Risks of | :47:55. | :47:59. | |
further flooding in one or two spots. Brightening up in the south | :47:59. | :48:06. | |
coast, north of the rainband a fine day. North West of England fine. | :48:06. | :48:10. | |
Feeling cool under the rainband, it should continue to affect parts of | :48:10. | :48:13. | |
the Midland, East Anglia into the afternoon. The southern most | :48:13. | :48:14. | |
They will be rain in the counties, after a bit of rain in | :48:14. | :48:21. | |
the morning, a largely dry day in store. Sunny spells possible, not | :48:21. | :48:24. | |
especially warm, any sunshine and temperature also lift a little. | :48:24. | :48:28. | |
Still remaining cloudy in Wales, further rain into the afternoon. | :48:28. | :48:33. | |
North Wales staying largely dry and bright. You couldn't rule out a few | :48:33. | :48:37. | |
spots of rain. For Northern Ireland there will be sunny spells to take | :48:37. | :48:43. | |
us throughout the day. Western areas a fine day in store. | :48:43. | :48:52. | |
Cloud gathering to the far north later on. Northerly winds really | :48:52. | :48:54. | |
digging in, they will eventually get to southern parts of England | :48:54. | :48:58. | |
and Wales, Friday could be a bit warmer for some of you, with dry | :48:58. | :49:01. | |
conditions around for you for a time. Not completely dry, a few | :49:01. | :49:04. |