01/05/2012 Newsnight


01/05/2012

Parliament's Media Committee say Rupert Murdoch is unfit to run News Corp. So what of BSkyB? And who is the new England football manager? With Jeremy Paxman.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 01/05/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Talk about humble days. The man who runs the world's

:00:23.:00:27.

biggest media empire is declared unfit to do so. Rupert Murdoch is

:00:27.:00:31.

chastised, three of his Lieutenants are accused of misleading

:00:31.:00:34.

parliamentary investigators. Is this verdict going to achieve

:00:34.:00:37.

anything beyond giving politicians the chance to stamp their little

:00:37.:00:43.

feetd and settle a score or two? -- feet and settle a score for two?

:00:43.:00:48.

Many years since England last won a big title, the nation turns to the

:00:48.:00:58.
:00:58.:00:58.

man who took Finland and - but Dhabi to success.

:00:58.:01:05.

Tory ahoi, we go canvasing with the only Conservative councillor in

:01:05.:01:08.

Glasgow. We are work really hard to get more than one elected at this

:01:08.:01:18.
:01:18.:01:21.

election, to actually maybe hold the balance of power.

:01:21.:01:26.

As verdicts go it is damming. Rupert Murdoch, the most powerful

:01:26.:01:32.

media propriety in the world isn't fit to run an international company.

:01:32.:01:35.

The Parliamentary Committee that spent ten months investigating the

:01:35.:01:38.

phone hacking scandal was not unanimous, but it is highly

:01:38.:01:42.

embarrassing. Three senior figures in Mr Murdoch's business, faced the

:01:42.:01:45.

possibility of being humiliated in front of the House of Commons, for

:01:45.:01:55.
:01:55.:01:55.

misleading the committee. MPs have been investigating

:01:55.:01:58.

wrongdoing at News International for nearly a decade. They have

:01:58.:02:01.

pursued hundreds of lines of inquiry and seen scores of

:02:01.:02:04.

witnesses. They have asked thousands of questions. But, they

:02:04.:02:08.

say, many of those answers have been misleading. Worse, there has

:02:08.:02:13.

been an organised cover-up. The Culture, Media and Sport select

:02:13.:02:19.

committee has concluded that three named individuals misled them.

:02:19.:02:22.

First off, Les Hinton, he was executive chairman of News

:02:22.:02:28.

International. He agreed the pay- off of �243,000 to Clive Goodman,

:02:28.:02:31.

despite the fact that Goodman had been convicted and imprisoned for

:02:31.:02:35.

phone hacking. The committee, though, found Mr Hinton hadn't been

:02:35.:02:39.

honest about his role in awarding the payment, which some MPs have

:02:39.:02:43.

alleged was designed to buy Goodman's silence.

:02:43.:02:48.

When Les Hinton appeared before the committee in 2009, he was asked

:02:48.:02:52.

repeatedly about those payments, but the committee said he was

:02:52.:02:59.

startling vague -- startlingly vague and trying to play his role

:02:59.:03:02.

as passive. But the committee said he not only authorised the payments,

:03:02.:03:09.

but took the decision to make them in the first place. At this same

:03:09.:03:13.

hearing in 2009, the committee said they were misled on another matter,

:03:13.:03:17.

about the extent of which Les Hinton knew about evidence of

:03:17.:03:21.

widespread phone hacking at News of the World. This is what he said at

:03:21.:03:24.

the time. There was never firm evidence or suspicion provided that

:03:24.:03:28.

I am aware of that implicated anybody else other than Clive

:03:28.:03:32.

within the staff at News of the World. It just didn't happen, Paul.

:03:32.:03:38.

And had it, we would have acted. course, we now know that News

:03:38.:03:41.

International was, at the time Les Hinton said that, in possession of

:03:41.:03:45.

a wealth of evidence that showed that phone hacking went far beyond

:03:45.:03:55.
:03:55.:03:56.

one rogue reporter. Therefore, the That cover-up, according to the

:03:56.:04:00.

committee also extended to Tom Crone, legal manager of News Group

:04:00.:04:04.

newspapers, along with Colin Myler, who was editor of the News of the

:04:04.:04:07.

World. They, the committee concluded, gave misleading answers

:04:07.:04:13.

about what they knew. To put it politely, we have been led up the

:04:13.:04:16.

garden path by News International. But more importantly, so were the

:04:17.:04:21.

readers of its newspapers, the general public, and the victims of

:04:22.:04:28.

phone hacking. Two years ago, in our report, we found the

:04:28.:04:32.

organisation guilty of collective amnesia, and said it was

:04:32.:04:35.

inconceivable that one rogue reporter was involved. We were

:04:35.:04:40.

right. The big question, of course, is how far up the organisation did

:04:40.:04:45.

knowledge of this cover-up go? When they peered before the committee,

:04:45.:04:49.

both James and Rupert -- appeared before the commit year, both James

:04:49.:04:53.

and Rupert Murdoch claimed they had no inkling it was going on until

:04:53.:04:58.

very late in the day. The committee members agreed that this was simply

:04:58.:05:04.

astonishing, they say, that in failing to investigate properly and

:05:04.:05:07.

ignore widespread evidence of wrongdoing, News International and

:05:07.:05:10.

its parent company, News Corporation, exhibited willful

:05:10.:05:15.

blindness, for which the company's directors, including James Murdoch,

:05:15.:05:19.

and Rupert Murdoch, should ultimately be prepared to take

:05:19.:05:22.

responsibility. Corporately, the News of the World

:05:22.:05:27.

and News International had misled the committee, repeatedly, about

:05:27.:05:30.

the true extent and nature of the investigations that they claimed to

:05:30.:05:35.

have carried out in relation to phone hacking. And that they had

:05:35.:05:42.

failed to disclose documents, which would have revealed the truth.

:05:42.:05:45.

five Labour and one Lib Dem member of the committee wanted to go

:05:45.:05:51.

further. They inserted a line into the report that said "we conclude,

:05:51.:05:55.

therefore, that Rupert Murdoch is not a fit person to exercise the

:05:55.:05:59.

stewardship of a major international company". We found

:05:59.:06:04.

News Corporation had an extensive cover-up of its rampent law-

:06:04.:06:07.

breaking. Its senior executives repeatedly misled parliament, and

:06:07.:06:12.

the two men at the top, Rupert and James Murdoch, in charge of the

:06:12.:06:16.

company, must now answer for that. In the view of the majority of

:06:16.:06:22.

committee members, Rupert Murdoch is not fit to run an international

:06:22.:06:25.

company like BSkyB. Conservatives voted against that

:06:25.:06:28.

line, when that failed they ended up voting against the entire report.

:06:28.:06:33.

We all felt that was wildly outside the scope of a select committee, it

:06:33.:06:38.

was an improper attempt to influence Ofcom, and to tread on

:06:38.:06:44.

areas that is not the province of a select committee, and our report,

:06:44.:06:47.

at least ostensibly, was about whether or not the prior committee

:06:47.:06:51.

had been misled. I put it to Tom Watson that by insisting about the

:06:51.:06:57.

line about Rupert Murdoch's fitness, Labour MPs had diluted the report's

:06:57.:07:00.

impact. Why was it so important to the get in that line about Rupert

:07:00.:07:05.

Murdoch being a fit person to run a major international company. When

:07:05.:07:09.

the expense has been, or the cost of getting that line in has been

:07:09.:07:13.

allowing opponents of this process to portray it as along party lines

:07:13.:07:17.

as political payback, or whatever? I understand your point, David,

:07:17.:07:21.

there is a judgment you have to make with these reports about

:07:21.:07:28.

whether you go for a weaker report, and gain unanimity, or whether you

:07:28.:07:36.

stand up for what you steadfastly believe. Where I came to, and

:07:36.:07:40.

obvious low the majority of non- Conservative members came to, was

:07:40.:07:46.

that we needed to raise the bar. What happens next, well, in the

:07:46.:07:50.

short-term, armed with this committee's report, the whole House

:07:50.:07:54.

of Commons will get to vote on what, if any, sanctions should be applied

:07:54.:07:59.

to those three individuals named as having misled parliament. The

:07:59.:08:02.

penalty for that isn't exactly clear.

:08:02.:08:05.

However, although this committee can claim with some justification

:08:05.:08:09.

to have started this whole process of investigating News International

:08:09.:08:13.

and phone hacking at News of the World. They won't get the last word.

:08:13.:08:18.

In a sense, their work has now rather been overtaken, not just by

:08:18.:08:22.

the Leveson Inquiry that is going on in parallel, but also by the

:08:22.:08:25.

criminal investigation by the police.

:08:25.:08:30.

To discuss what this means for the Murdoch empire, we can speak to the

:08:30.:08:34.

Conservative MP Louise Mensch, and we're joined from Glasgow by the

:08:34.:08:38.

Labour MP, Jim sherd Dan, both members of the select committee

:08:38.:08:41.

that delivered this pretty damming report today. They disagree on

:08:41.:08:45.

whether Rupert Murdoch is unfit to run a global company. Also here is

:08:45.:08:52.

the executive editor of the Times, and the BBC former director-general,

:08:52.:08:56.

Greg Dyke. What is your excuse of subverting what appeared to be a

:08:56.:09:01.

thorough inquiry with a bit of political sloganising? I don't

:09:01.:09:10.

accept that analysis, People will draw their own conclusions,

:09:10.:09:13.

including members of the committee. My own conclusion is this is an

:09:14.:09:17.

organisation responsible for criminal activity, with three

:09:17.:09:21.

senior executives involved in it. Rupert Murdoch was the head of that

:09:21.:09:25.

organisation, and as such you can only draw one of two on collisions,

:09:25.:09:28.

either he was complicit in everything that was going on, or he

:09:28.:09:33.

was completely ignorant, and taking his eye off the ball, if you draw

:09:33.:09:36.

either of those conclusions, you must draw the conclusion that he is

:09:36.:09:40.

not a fit person to run an organisation. That is fair point,

:09:40.:09:43.

isn't it Louise Mensch? I don't really think so, it wasn't up to us

:09:43.:09:46.

to make that judgment. If you look at the introduction of the report,

:09:46.:09:51.

it says it is an inquiry into whether the prior select committee

:09:51.:09:56.

was misled. It is worth that on the World Tonight, Jim has said he

:09:56.:09:59.

didn't base that conclusion on evidence presented to the committee,

:09:59.:10:02.

but only because Rupert Murdoch was the head of the company. He drew a

:10:02.:10:07.

conclusion. There are only two possible explanations, either he

:10:07.:10:11.

was complicit or ignorant, so he's not fit to run an empire? Fit and

:10:12.:10:17.

proper, they took out "proper" but left in "fit", is part of Ofcom's

:10:17.:10:23.

test to who hold as broadcast license. Where the Tories disaed

:10:23.:10:28.

greed, nobody disagreed that was wildly outside the remit of the

:10:28.:10:32.

committee. And it is Ofcom that makes fit and proper tests, not

:10:32.:10:35.

select commity. We have lost our chance to produce a unified

:10:36.:10:40.

credible report where we would have all agreed. If you are willfully

:10:40.:10:44.

blind, you are surely, by definition, not a fit person to run

:10:44.:10:51.

a company? I couldn't disagree more, Rupert Murdoch and his son are both

:10:51.:10:56.

admitting the failings of company over the journalistic practices

:10:57.:11:00.

that were clearly going wrong. All those have been dealt with and

:11:01.:11:04.

dealt with very thoroughly, a new chain of management, editoral and

:11:04.:11:09.

commercial have come in. He has admitted a great level of failure.

:11:09.:11:15.

The argument he's not a fit person, which is as Mr Watson said and Mr

:11:15.:11:20.

Sheridan says, these are opinions, it is nothing to do with fact, it

:11:20.:11:23.

was way outside receipt mit of the committee to do anything about it.

:11:23.:11:28.

This was purely about an anti- Murdoch animosity, that infuse as

:11:28.:11:32.

lot of people, political and commercial opponents. The good work

:11:32.:11:36.

of the committee has been hijacked by a campaign. We will come back to

:11:36.:11:41.

that in a second or two. Greg Dyke, before we do, what impact will this

:11:41.:11:47.

sort of form of words have upon Mr Murdoch's position in BSkyB, for

:11:47.:11:53.

example? I doubt whether this will have any impact at all. Ofcom can

:11:53.:12:00.

have impact and Ofcom are investigating this, and Ofcom will

:12:00.:12:05.

apply the proper fit and proper test. I suspect they will come to a

:12:05.:12:10.

similar conclusion, but be based on a set of evidence that they receive.

:12:10.:12:18.

So you think it will have a serious impact? I think, in the end, it is

:12:18.:12:23.

difficult to see how the News International, the Murdoch

:12:23.:12:29.

corporation, can continue to own the number of shares it owns in

:12:29.:12:33.

BSkyB. I think in the end, and I think that will be in the interests

:12:33.:12:38.

of BSkyB, to actually offload News International and the Murdochs. I

:12:38.:12:43.

think they are now damaging to BSkyB, and BSkyB is a really good

:12:43.:12:47.

business. Mr Sheridan, on how many of the, the committee I believe

:12:47.:12:50.

voted on all sorts of contentious points in this report, on how many

:12:50.:12:55.

of those points did you disagree with your party colleagues? On the

:12:55.:12:59.

voting I never disagreed with any of them. And there were

:12:59.:13:03.

Conservatives who disagreed among themselves, weren't there? I do

:13:03.:13:07.

believe there were some disagreements amongst them. So I

:13:07.:13:11.

suggest to you that what you were doing is hijacking a parliamentary

:13:11.:13:16.

inquiry for party advantage? may say that, Jeremy, I don't agree

:13:16.:13:19.

with you. It is worth saying that in all the time the select

:13:19.:13:24.

committee discussed the phone hacking report, never in even one

:13:24.:13:28.

discussion, did we ever discuss, even for a minute, whether or not

:13:28.:13:31.

Rupert Murdoch was a fit person to run News Corporation. That was

:13:31.:13:35.

literal never discussed, even one time, in any discussion. But it was

:13:35.:13:40.

hijacked into the final report. Let's just check that Mr Sheridan

:13:40.:13:43.

has the same recollection, that is the case isn't it? I missed you

:13:44.:13:47.

there. Jim, I'm saying in all our discussions on the phone hacking

:13:47.:13:51.

report, never even once did we as a committee discuss whether or not

:13:51.:13:55.

Rupert Murdoch was fit to run News Corporation, that never came up in

:13:55.:13:59.

any of our discussions while we considered the report, until the

:13:59.:14:03.

final meeting? That's when people draw their final conclusions, in

:14:03.:14:06.

the final meeting. You drew a conclusion without having discussed

:14:06.:14:13.

it? It was discussed. The whole issue of. You have just conceded it

:14:13.:14:16.

wasn't discussed until the final conclusions meeting? The whole

:14:16.:14:22.

issue of the Murdochs in this whole inquiry was extensively discussed,

:14:22.:14:26.

privately and publicly. Whether he was a fit person, as Mr Sheridan

:14:26.:14:29.

has agreed, was absolutely never discussed. Obviously it is not

:14:29.:14:34.

within a remit of a select committee, as Mark Lewis, the

:14:34.:14:37.

victims' lawyer has confirmed tonight, it is Ofcom's remit, and

:14:38.:14:44.

nothing to do with us. Labour have shot themselves into a foot, by

:14:44.:14:48.

taking a report that could have been hitting the target. There is

:14:48.:14:50.

not a cigarette paper between you and I, the only difference between

:14:50.:14:54.

you and I, you don't want to apportion any blame on Rupert

:14:54.:14:58.

Murdoch. If this was the BBC you would be champing at the bit to

:14:58.:15:02.

blame Mr Thomson. You would be champing at the bit. You simply

:15:02.:15:06.

cannot accept that Mr Murdoch has nothing to do with this. That is

:15:06.:15:09.

completely false. I seem to remember when Labour were in

:15:09.:15:12.

Government doing precisely what they were talking about there. This

:15:12.:15:19.

is serious stuff, this. I do think it has turned into a bit of

:15:19.:15:22.

knockabout stuff, that is a shame. It is a serious thing. Anybody who

:15:22.:15:26.

watched the evidence. In the end you have to make a judgment of, do

:15:26.:15:30.

you believe what Mr Murdoch and his son said. I have to say I find it

:15:30.:15:34.

very difficult to believe. But unless there is evidence to prove

:15:34.:15:38.

otherwise, one has to accept it. How does it feel where you are, as

:15:38.:15:45.

part of this enormous organisation, there must come a point where the

:15:45.:15:48.

Murdoch connection and involvement, the Murdoch overlordship is an

:15:48.:15:52.

embarrassment? Come off it, what Rupert Murdoch has done for this

:15:52.:15:56.

country over three decades in terms of maintaining the press, keeping

:15:56.:16:01.

the press alive, developing television. Underlining the

:16:01.:16:03.

political system. It hasn't undermined the political system.

:16:03.:16:07.

Who are you kidding. Please, that just hasn't happened. What are you

:16:07.:16:12.

saying, people wouldn't have voted Labour? I'm saying our political

:16:12.:16:17.

system has been de distorted by the way in which the Murdoch operation

:16:17.:16:23.

-- been distorted by the way in which the Murdoch operation has

:16:23.:16:27.

influenced politicians, it is going on for 30 years, thankfully it is

:16:27.:16:32.

ending now, and that makes it a healthier democracy. I challenge

:16:32.:16:36.

that, Mr Murdoch was endlessly pursued by politicians, it was not

:16:36.:16:42.

the other way round. Anyone who believes that must be in cuckoo

:16:42.:16:45.

land. If you believe the line where he says he didn't ask for anything,

:16:45.:16:50.

who believes that. To say the Murdochs have tainted this country

:16:50.:16:56.

as one of these great things, couldn't be more wrong. Look at the

:16:56.:17:00.

nature of British sport, Joey Barton is coming up, look at

:17:00.:17:03.

football on television. We are talking about democracy and

:17:03.:17:09.

politics, there is no doubt that over many years that the Murdochs

:17:09.:17:13.

had an influence over politics in this country which was damaging to

:17:13.:17:18.

our political system and structure. I certainly think that politicians

:17:18.:17:22.

should, and politicians and journalists should be distant from

:17:22.:17:25.

each other. Louise Mensch are you worried that your party now seems,

:17:25.:17:29.

yet again, to be looking after Murdoch's interests? No, not

:17:29.:17:32.

particularly. I don't think so. What Jim says is completely not

:17:32.:17:37.

true. The report before it was amended in this hysterical and

:17:37.:17:41.

over-the-top way was highly critical of James Murdoch and

:17:41.:17:43.

Rupert Murdoch and News Corporation corporately, there was strong

:17:43.:17:46.

criticisms in the report as drafted, which we all would have signed up

:17:46.:17:51.

to. Nobody is trying to say that there weren't failure of both James

:17:51.:17:54.

and Rupert Murdoch and News Corporation, which they admit

:17:54.:17:58.

themselves, it is the degree and the over-the-topness, and the

:17:58.:18:01.

hijacking of the report that has caused the credibility to be lost.

:18:01.:18:06.

What do you think is the future of James and Rupert Murdoch in this

:18:06.:18:11.

country? I think it is over. If you have had the degree of political

:18:11.:18:15.

power and influence that they had, and then suddenly it is gone, I

:18:15.:18:19.

don't think you can get it back. I don't think the Murdochs will ever

:18:19.:18:22.

be the power they were then. The moment David Cameron stood up in

:18:22.:18:26.

the House of Commons and said, come on, we have all been at it, and it

:18:26.:18:34.

is time to end, it is ended. Can I go back to the fundamentals, Rupert

:18:34.:18:37.

Murdoch was a very successful businessman, part of that success

:18:37.:18:41.

was based on him tapping into private telephone calls, people's

:18:41.:18:45.

private lives, that is why he has been such a successful business. It

:18:45.:18:49.

is not because he's a magic person. If people want to tap into other

:18:49.:18:51.

people's lives, that is unforgiveable, that is the reason

:18:51.:18:54.

why we had this inquiry, that is why we will have the Leveson

:18:54.:18:59.

Inquiry as well. What do you think, if Greg Dyke is right, and it is

:18:59.:19:02.

all over for the Murdochs in this country, what will be the

:19:02.:19:05.

consequences? I don't think it is all over. You have got a

:19:05.:19:08.

flourishing newspaper business, you have got a flourishing television

:19:08.:19:13.

business, and I don't see why Rupert Murdoch should walk away. He

:19:13.:19:22.

loves his papers, he does. He might well be told, Ofcom might say that

:19:22.:19:26.

News International are not a fit and proper person to control BSkyB,

:19:27.:19:30.

and 39%, in the law in this country, is control, at the very least they

:19:30.:19:36.

could have to sell to 29%, they could be told to sell the lot, that

:19:36.:19:41.

wouldn't surprise me, it might anybody their interests. BSkyB is a

:19:41.:19:44.

fantastic channel and the activities it does, it is

:19:44.:19:47.

enormously good for this country. It has never really used what it

:19:47.:19:51.

developed, the power and money to turn itself into an international

:19:51.:19:55.

media company based here. It never could, because it always had to be

:19:55.:19:57.

part of the Murdoch operation. Murdoch always controlled it T you

:19:57.:20:02.

know that, I know that. What do you think is the future of

:20:02.:20:05.

the Murdochs in this country? is partly for Ofcom to determine,

:20:05.:20:12.

not for my commity. But I do note that even: You have inquired into

:20:12.:20:16.

this pretty thoroughly and arrived at a view? We have, and held News

:20:16.:20:19.

Corporation's feet to the fire. It is worth saying that the management

:20:19.:20:22.

and Standards Committee of News Corporation, better late than never,

:20:22.:20:25.

are finally coming clean and bringing forward information all

:20:25.:20:29.

the time. They do appear to have taken some of these lessons on

:20:29.:20:34.

board. It is worth saying that Rupert Murdoch is a great newspaper

:20:34.:20:37.

man, who has run newspapers in this country before mobile phones were

:20:37.:20:43.

even invented. Even in the report as it stood, not even Tom Watson or

:20:43.:20:46.

any Labour member found that either Rupert or James Murdoch had misled

:20:46.:20:54.

our committee, that is important to say. They were not found guilty of

:20:54.:20:58.

misleading parliament. I'm all for media equality, we need a strong

:20:58.:21:02.

freedom of the press, and a strong independent press that doesn't hack

:21:02.:21:08.

people's phones or use operation Motorman-tile, hacking et cetera,

:21:08.:21:10.

that was not confined to News International.

:21:10.:21:14.

The new manager of the England football team was formally unveiled

:21:14.:21:19.

today, if that is the right words, Roy Hodgson has a glorious few days

:21:19.:21:22.

before discovering most of the population in these islands think

:21:22.:21:25.

they could do the job better than him. They are not afraid to say so.

:21:25.:21:30.

It is not a bad opportunity on the edge of your 65th birthday. In a

:21:30.:21:35.

moment we will talk about the appointment with QPR captain and

:21:35.:21:41.

some time England international, Joey Barton. First Steve Smith.

:21:41.:21:46.

It is the result that not even the most perspicacious, or dare we say

:21:46.:21:51.

it, veteran football commentator, managed to predict.

:21:51.:21:54.

Here are tonight's classified football results, read for

:21:54.:22:00.

Newsnight, by me, James Alexander Gordon.

:22:00.:22:05.

Football Association 1, Football Pundits 0. That's right, ashen-

:22:05.:22:10.

faced football hacks have been eating their words, after nobody's

:22:10.:22:14.

favourite, Roy Hodgson, was elevated from unfashionable West

:22:14.:22:20.

Brom to the England manager's job. It is a very proud day for me. I'm

:22:20.:22:25.

a very happen kwhree man to be offered the -- happy man to be

:22:25.:22:29.

offered the chance to manage my country. I'm looking forward to the

:22:29.:22:34.

task ahead, it is not an easy one. I'm hoping everybody, fans,

:22:34.:22:37.

supporters, everybody in the country, will get behind the team,

:22:37.:22:45.

it is the team that kounds. Andrew Rodger 1, Harry Redknapp 0.

:22:45.:22:50.

Colourful Spurs boss Harry Redknapp was going to be England boss,

:22:50.:22:55.

according to everyone, particularly after he was cleared of tax charges.

:22:55.:23:03.

I feel sorry for Harry, he's a wheeler dealer, a boy, believing in

:23:03.:23:09.

rapid football. I'm not saying that Roy Hodgson doesn't, if we wanted a

:23:09.:23:12.

European Championships, Harry was the man.

:23:12.:23:17.

Roy Hodgson was managed club and national sides around the world.

:23:17.:23:21.

But his spell at Liverpool wasn't seen as a triumph. Many fans felt

:23:21.:23:25.

he didn't think big enough for a club that was once accustomed to

:23:25.:23:30.

greatness. He left after just six months. Roy Hodgson may not have

:23:30.:23:32.

had a particularly happy time at Liverpool, I believe the fans

:23:32.:23:37.

didn't give him a chance, because from day one they weren't on his

:23:37.:23:40.

side, which is very important. I don't think that should ever

:23:40.:23:45.

detract from his capablities as a manager, or if you look at what he

:23:45.:23:49.

has achieved at the clubs, he has proved he's a good manager. I think

:23:49.:23:53.

he will do a very good job for England. The last coach couldn't

:23:53.:23:59.

speak the language when he took the job. His successor faced a test on

:23:59.:24:05.

his diplomatic skills, after a question about his playing in South

:24:05.:24:09.

Africa under the apartheid system. I didn't think about the politics,

:24:09.:24:17.

it played no part in my decision. It is slightly unfair in today's

:24:17.:24:21.

world, where we are discussing racism, to go back 40 years and

:24:21.:24:26.

criticise a decision I made for purely football reasons.

:24:26.:24:31.

By all accounts, Hodgson's's more rounded individual today. Perhaps

:24:31.:24:34.

even a Newsnight type, no we don't mean he's always banging on about

:24:34.:24:40.

politics and economics, he enjoys the arts, and literature. He is a

:24:41.:24:47.

cultured man. He loves Puccini, where as Harry would think that was

:24:47.:24:51.

an Italian football player he would sign. He can speak five languages

:24:51.:24:57.

Roy, he can swear in all of them. When it comes to a press conference,

:24:57.:25:06.

I'm afraid he can be rather grey, rather saturine and rather

:25:06.:25:10.

withdrawn. So how will the new boss get on in his first big test,

:25:10.:25:13.

managing the egos in England's squad at the European

:25:13.:25:16.

Championshipss this summer. Will he turn out to be like another

:25:16.:25:22.

English leader, who came unstuck over Europe. Major was grey, wasn't

:25:22.:25:27.

he, really, I can't imagine Roy Hodgson wearing Y-fronts and eating

:25:27.:25:33.

peas off a knife, he would be rather talking about something like

:25:33.:25:43.

spaghetti a la vong ola in the bay of Naples. He has to get it across,

:25:43.:25:46.

it is all right being intelligent, but it is as it does, and Roy

:25:46.:25:54.

doesn't impress you as the brain of Britain. Why did I give it up? The

:25:54.:26:00.

WAGs wouldn't leave me alone. reflect on the appointment of Roy

:26:00.:26:05.

Hodgson and the state of football in England generally, is Joey

:26:05.:26:11.

Barton, he can both over 1.4 million followers on twitter and

:26:11.:26:15.

captains QPR, he has a couple of convictions for violence and plays

:26:15.:26:17.

for England. What does this appointment tell us about the state

:26:17.:26:26.

of English football? I mean, for me, I think the Englishman in the

:26:26.:26:30.

street wanted an English manager. We straight away limited our appeal.

:26:30.:26:34.

I think it is a very shrewd appointment by the FA. They head-

:26:35.:26:38.

hunted him almost, to the point where they have said they have not

:26:38.:26:41.

interviewed any other candidates, I think Roy Hodgson has the track

:26:41.:26:45.

record. He has coached international football before,

:26:45.:26:49.

which is a complete and total different entity to club football.

:26:49.:26:55.

You have a lot less involvement with the players on a daily basis.

:26:55.:26:58.

And also, you are managing other managers' players, it is not a

:26:58.:27:04.

straight forward role. I think Roy has a wealth of experience, not

:27:04.:27:10.

only in England, but abroad, and at major tournaments. It will bode

:27:10.:27:15.

well. He seems to be a quiet, thoughtful guy? I wouldn't know

:27:15.:27:19.

without, I haven't worked with him personally, although I have come

:27:19.:27:25.

across him in the game. He is a straight forward guy. I think he's

:27:25.:27:31.

a very qulturd Englishman. He has coached inter-- cultured Englishman,

:27:31.:27:35.

he coached Inter Milan, and Switzerland into number three in

:27:35.:27:40.

the FIFA world rankings, and Finland and Abu Dhabi. He has

:27:40.:27:44.

managed big clubs, Liverpool is a massive club, Inter Milan is a

:27:44.:27:48.

massive club. He has a wealth of experience. It is a very shrewd

:27:48.:27:52.

appointment by England. It is a heck of a management of

:27:52.:27:57.

expectations he has to deal with, though, isn't it? Do you think we

:27:57.:28:00.

take football too seriously in this country? That is difficult for me

:28:00.:28:05.

to say as a footballer. The fact that I have over a million

:28:05.:28:10.

followers, most of them I have never met on Twitter, shows that

:28:10.:28:13.

football is taken seriously in this country. Too seriously do you think

:28:13.:28:17.

sometimes? It is our national gamement we are very proud of

:28:17.:28:21.

England, and I think -- game. And we're very proud of England, that

:28:21.:28:24.

is why we get so much media coverage. Why aren't we doing

:28:24.:28:27.

better? That is a difficult question, unless I was appointed

:28:27.:28:30.

England manager, it is difficult to answer, why aren't we doing better,

:28:30.:28:37.

in terms of what? I think, for me, we have the best export in global

:28:37.:28:41.

football in the Premier League. From that standpoint we do

:28:41.:28:45.

fantastic. Do you think, there used to be an argument, that good club

:28:45.:28:50.

football was some how the energy of a good national team? Yeah, and I

:28:50.:28:55.

think as the Premier League has grown over the last 20 years, I

:28:55.:29:01.

think England, to your average Englishman has slipped maybe a

:29:01.:29:08.

little bit. The club becomes really important, and interclub rivalries

:29:08.:29:13.

have grown beyond the national ideaty. In the country there is a

:29:13.:29:18.

massive north and south divide. The fact that England play at Wembley

:29:18.:29:22.

predominantly and the amount of money spent on Wembley, I think

:29:22.:29:28.

people in the north of the country feel like England has become a

:29:28.:29:38.
:29:38.:29:40.

northern-based entity really. English football has become

:29:40.:29:44.

southern-based? Team England. should have? I think it should be

:29:45.:29:48.

addressed. I have been on record saying England should be a touring

:29:48.:29:51.

side. They are a representation of the whole of the country, they

:29:51.:29:54.

should tour the country. We have some great stadiums all round the

:29:54.:29:58.

country. I think, you know, I think we should take advantage of that.

:29:58.:30:01.

Obviously it will be very difficult because of the amount of the money

:30:01.:30:06.

the FA put into the new stadium, which is magnificent at Wembley,

:30:06.:30:12.

that is the reason the big matches play there. Is it something about

:30:12.:30:15.

the way the authority is exercised in the game? There is so much money

:30:15.:30:18.

involved, when money gets involved at the level it does, I think you

:30:18.:30:22.

know what it is like, the bureaucrats sort of have to feel

:30:22.:30:27.

they have to do something, in order to justify salaries that they are

:30:27.:30:32.

paid. They are generally sticking their noses in, sometimes where it

:30:32.:30:38.

is better to let the main experts and people who know the game. The

:30:38.:30:41.

paperwork and that kind of thing can get in the way. I think the

:30:41.:30:46.

higher up the chain you go, I think obviously that comes into more and

:30:46.:30:49.

more. It is difficult, because sometimes you have just got to let

:30:49.:30:53.

people do what you employed them to do. Hopefully, for Roy Hodgson, he

:30:53.:30:57.

gets the chance to do that. Do you think there is a case for a

:30:57.:31:03.

generational shift in the team, that maybe needs to go down ten

:31:03.:31:10.

years or something? You are talking like an expert there, I couldn't

:31:10.:31:13.

say there. It is your age group that is coming over the hill, which

:31:13.:31:19.

is a bit ripe for me? My process towards England as a patriotic

:31:19.:31:24.

proud Englishman, wanting England to do very well at major

:31:24.:31:26.

tournaments, because it keeps me interested, certainly, in the

:31:26.:31:31.

summer watching it, the longer they stay in it. I would say maybe it is

:31:31.:31:38.

the time to give Roy the license to shake it up a bit, in terms of to

:31:38.:31:41.

bring some young exciting players, which we have a lot of in this

:31:41.:31:48.

country, and take them to a major championship. There is the European

:31:48.:31:52.

Championships will be, and build for the next world and European

:31:52.:31:55.

Championshipss. Germany did it just before the World Cup out in Germany,

:31:55.:32:00.

I think it was in 2006, the tournament previous to that, which

:32:00.:32:04.

was the European Championshipss, I think in Portugal, they blooded a

:32:04.:32:10.

lot of young players in the process of taking them to the next World

:32:10.:32:15.

Cup, and giving them that major tournament experience, and also

:32:15.:32:18.

giving them probably the height of expectation and the media interest,

:32:18.:32:23.

all that comes with the game. You don't fancy it yourself? No, I

:32:23.:32:29.

have got pressing issues at QPR, we are in a relegation fight, that is

:32:29.:32:34.

my sole focus at the minute, you know, that is where my mind is set.

:32:34.:32:38.

Joey Barton, thanks a lot. The day after tomorrow lots of us

:32:38.:32:41.

get the chance to express ourselves on paper in local elections in

:32:41.:32:46.

England, Scotland and Wales. They are often treated as the poor

:32:46.:32:48.

relations in general elections, even though what local Government

:32:48.:32:53.

does often has a more direct impact on people's lives. They also

:32:53.:32:57.

resonate way beyond city, town or county boundaries, nowhere and more

:32:57.:33:02.

so than in Scotland, where all 32 local authorities are up for grabs,

:33:02.:33:05.

and there is said to be the real prospect of Labour losing places

:33:05.:33:09.

they were once so confident of. They hardly needed a canvas.

:33:09.:33:19.
:33:19.:33:19.

We're in Glasgow. If in places like Glasgow they

:33:19.:33:24.

normally weigh the vote, not count it, this Thursday they will have

:33:24.:33:30.

shipped in the most ultra sensitive calipers and tape measures to

:33:30.:33:32.

ajudicate the way this council goes. Across the country the Westminster

:33:33.:33:37.

Government thinks the opposition will to the up respectable games --

:33:37.:33:43.

tot up respectable games, but they hope to bring down Labour's wins.

:33:43.:33:46.

Glasgow council has been run by Labour for 32 years, this city

:33:47.:33:50.

played a special role in the formation of the Labour Party, in

:33:50.:33:54.

1914 workers rose up in this square in complaint of working conditions.

:33:54.:33:58.

The Government in Westminster sent tanks, they felt it was a

:33:58.:34:05.

revolution, it it wasn't, but something like Red Collideside was

:34:05.:34:11.

brought in and Glasgow became central to Labour's life.

:34:11.:34:16.

Gordon Matheson was one of the men thought to fight for that. 55p of

:34:16.:34:20.

every pound you paid in rent went to servicing debt, because that was

:34:20.:34:23.

removed that has meant that investment has been possible. So

:34:23.:34:29.

there is new cladding, new door central heating, new kitchens.

:34:29.:34:32.

not saying Labour is doing a bad job, from my point of view, and a

:34:32.:34:38.

lot of people's point of view, you are not guaranteed a vote, you have

:34:38.:34:42.

to fight for it, you have to persuade me, you are doing a good

:34:42.:34:46.

job, perhaps you will get my vote. That is the difference, 20 years

:34:46.:34:51.

ago you have the vote, now you are up against a good party. In the

:34:51.:34:56.

suburbs, the lesser spotted Conservatives are festooned with

:34:56.:35:00.

falling blossom as they knock on doors. What about the Tories'

:35:00.:35:06.

chances, why are they bothering? think around about here they have a

:35:06.:35:09.

good chance. Your friends are persuaded by them? Yes. Would you?

:35:09.:35:13.

No. The nature of this election means smaller parties could be as

:35:13.:35:17.

critical as the one-time Labour core vote ever was. This chap could

:35:17.:35:21.

be a king maker in a coalition. But at the moment you are out of the

:35:21.:35:26.

picture, it is a two-way battle, is SNP-Labour? That is the way it is

:35:26.:35:29.

portrayed, when you think about it, this election will be close and the

:35:29.:35:33.

Conservatives could play a role in the next administration, we are

:35:33.:35:36.

working really hard to get more than one elected at this election

:35:36.:35:42.

to hold the balance of power. Displaying an early ability to kol

:35:42.:35:49.

build, David bumps into a political panjandrumwauarking his dog, the

:35:49.:35:56.

Labour Party chairman back when things were rosy in 199 1.

:35:56.:36:01.

issue is whether these Des deselected Labour candidates will -

:36:01.:36:04.

these deselected Labour candidates will affect the Labour vote, that

:36:04.:36:07.

they will take votes from Labour, most of them won't get elected

:36:08.:36:11.

themselves, but they might then just take enough votes from Labour

:36:11.:36:17.

to let the SNP through. Tommy Morrison is leader of that

:36:17.:36:22.

group, Glasgow First, pushed away, they believe, when Labour asked old

:36:22.:36:27.

timers, 20 of them, not to stand again. I think that the city is

:36:27.:36:32.

looking forward to one of the biggest elections it will ever have,

:36:32.:36:38.

in the past 40 years. The Labour Party deselected 18 of its

:36:38.:36:43.

councillors, for no reason that we can find out. When we are trying to

:36:44.:36:48.

go through the system we were basically told we were dead wood.

:36:49.:36:54.

That we weren't part of the A-team, and we weren't part of the new

:36:54.:36:59.

Labour set-up. My colleagues and I have never been part of the new

:36:59.:37:04.

Labour set-up. We consider ourselves not old Labour, but not

:37:05.:37:09.

new Labour, but the real Labour Party. The Labour Party think that

:37:09.:37:11.

on Thursday they will lose overall control of the council, but they

:37:11.:37:15.

will remain the largest party. They think that, in a system that is

:37:15.:37:18.

being fought on proportional voting s a minutey miracle. But their

:37:18.:37:23.

colleagues, the ones -- mini- miracle, but their colleagues, the

:37:23.:37:30.

ones he they chucked out think they will be lucky, and think that the

:37:30.:37:35.

Conservatives will hold the power. The SNP is in bullish mood. We have

:37:35.:37:39.

been working hard, our objective is obviously to win these elections,

:37:39.:37:42.

we have had a great team across the city. We are building on the

:37:42.:37:45.

achievements of the SNP Government over the last few years. We have

:37:45.:37:48.

the record, the team and the vision for Glasgow. I think you can see

:37:48.:37:53.

the work that we have done has been really impressive, all across the

:37:53.:37:56.

city. Local councillors over the last five years have been building

:37:56.:37:59.

up a really good reputation of being hard workers. Tell me David,

:37:59.:38:03.

why is it that your leader, Alex Salmond, has not been heavily

:38:03.:38:07.

visible in this place? This is obviously a local election, it is

:38:07.:38:13.

about local issues. Alex Salmond is the leader of the party, he has

:38:13.:38:16.

been in Glasgow, but this is a local issue, local campaigns and

:38:17.:38:23.

local people. The smaller parties feel they will

:38:23.:38:27.

be overshadowed? We will be skwuesed by the two massive parties

:38:28.:38:31.

clouting over their -- squeezed by the two massive parties clouting

:38:31.:38:35.

each other over the head, and all the other parties are fighting hard

:38:35.:38:40.

to be re-elected, the people in our target seats are good local people

:38:40.:38:42.

delivering locally. In these election results, look at the

:38:42.:38:46.

numbers across the country and look at London, remember George Square

:38:46.:38:50.

and the next episode in Scottish Labour history, a story that began

:38:50.:38:55.

nearly 100 years ago. Margaret Curran is the Shadow

:38:55.:39:00.

Scotland Secretary, she's a Glasgow MP and joins us there, in the

:39:00.:39:10.
:39:10.:39:12.

dunddy studio is the SN -- dunddy studio is the SN P MP, Stewart

:39:12.:39:18.

Hosie. You are issued a manifesto with 100 promises, which includes

:39:18.:39:22.

making Glasgow a child-friendly city, why have you not done that

:39:22.:39:26.

before now? There is no denying we are facing a challenge in Glasgow,

:39:26.:39:32.

particularly after last year's elections where the SNP outpolled

:39:32.:39:37.

us. We have strong policies and strong leadership. I'm hopeful we

:39:37.:39:41.

will do better in these elections and could be the largest party.

:39:41.:39:46.

asking about your 100 proim misses here, the manifesto -- promises,

:39:46.:39:50.

the manifesto, the promise number nine is Labour targeting

:39:50.:39:55.

irresponsible dog owners who foul our parks and streets, 40 years to

:39:55.:40:00.

get that far? Picking up on the child issue, if you say that, one

:40:00.:40:02.

of the difficulties that Glasgow has had, is the SNP Government and

:40:03.:40:06.

their lack of leadership in childcare has meant that Scotland

:40:06.:40:10.

is now behind England in terms of childcare provision. Nonetheless,

:40:10.:40:13.

Glasgow City Council, under Labour's leadership, has made

:40:13.:40:17.

important strides in the city, we have still much more work to. Do we

:40:17.:40:22.

want to improve childcare provision. You have dog mess to clear up?

:40:22.:40:26.

fouling matters to people. I wonder why you spent 40 years not dealing

:40:26.:40:30.

with it? Some action has been taken, but not enough. We would say with

:40:30.:40:35.

the the Tories in power at Westminster, the SNP neglecting

:40:35.:40:39.

Glasgow and Edinburgh, we have a fight on our hands, we will do our

:40:39.:40:42.

best to represent the best interests of the people of Glasgow.

:40:42.:40:46.

Stewart Hosie, your leader in Glasgow says taking Glasgow would

:40:46.:40:51.

be the first stepping stone to independence, is he serious?

:40:51.:40:54.

then went on to say the focus is on Glasgow, I have heard that quote

:40:54.:41:02.

before, it is normally a misquote. It is no surprise that I campaign

:41:02.:41:06.

like Alison Hunter wants Scotland to be independent. It is not a

:41:06.:41:09.

surprise that a nationalist wants Scotland to be independent. Is it a

:41:09.:41:13.

stepping stone to independent? is a stepping stone to controlling

:41:13.:41:18.

Glasgow and making the people's lives better. Is it a stepping

:41:18.:41:22.

stone for independence? If you are asking me if it is a referendum on

:41:22.:41:25.

independent, no it is about who is best to run the city of Glasgow.

:41:25.:41:30.

The question of turnout, it is widely predicted that for various

:41:30.:41:34.

reasons we don't needing to into now, there is a danger of a very

:41:34.:41:37.

low turnout, what would you consider to be a turnout that was

:41:37.:41:43.

so low that the outcome was really illegitimate? I wouldn't put a

:41:43.:41:47.

finger on it. There have been by- elections, I think Hillary Benn in

:41:47.:41:52.

Leeds some years ago, it was incredibly low. From memory it was

:41:52.:41:57.

less than 20%. The people have the right not to vote, so we need to be

:41:57.:42:00.

very careful about legitimacy in terms of turnout numbers. What do

:42:00.:42:04.

you think? Of course I wouldn't put a figure on it at all. We need to

:42:04.:42:08.

make sure we are fighting for every vote, and motivate people that big

:42:09.:42:13.

issues are at stake in this election. Unlike what the SNP say,

:42:13.:42:16.

it is fundamentally about the great city of Glasgow and the services

:42:16.:42:19.

that are at stake. If we motivate people and feel they understand

:42:19.:42:26.

that, and think about this we can increase it. When you are out

:42:26.:42:28.

campaigning, what is the most exciting and enthusiastic thing you

:42:28.:42:32.

have heard people say about Ed Miliband's leadership of your

:42:32.:42:35.

party? I think what people are beginning to recognise is Ed is

:42:35.:42:39.

very much leading the agenda, he was the first to take on the issue

:42:39.:42:43.

about the Murdochs in stark contrast to Alex Salmond, that is

:42:43.:42:47.

coming up on the doorsteps a lot. It is about what the Tory

:42:47.:42:51.

Government is doing, more interested in millionaires and Ed

:42:51.:42:55.

Miliband is speak beg fairness, that is resonating on the doorsteps.

:42:55.:42:59.

All the people you have spoken on the many doorsteps you have been on,

:42:59.:43:03.

what is the most exciting thing someone has said about Ed Miliband?

:43:03.:43:06.

That he's warm and engaging and talking about the issue that matter

:43:06.:43:10.

to them. Some people find that exciting, even if perhaps you don't.

:43:10.:43:14.

Stewart Hosie, how much enthusiasm do people express on the doorsteps

:43:14.:43:24.
:43:24.:43:24.

about the cuts being introduced by the SNP Government? Who people on

:43:24.:43:28.

the doorsteps o out there understand is we are in the middle

:43:28.:43:32.

of the biggest depression in many years. They are delighted the

:43:32.:43:35.

Scottish Government has frozen the council tax, kept 1,000 extra

:43:35.:43:41.

police on the beat, and introduced a small business bonus that sees

:43:41.:43:45.

40% of businesses paying reduced or no rates at all to try to grow the

:43:45.:43:49.

economy out of the recession and out from underneath the austerity

:43:49.:43:54.

measures of the UK Government. big a loss would Glasgow be, do you

:43:54.:43:59.

think? It depends how you define loss. If we are not the overall-

:43:59.:44:05.

party, that may be interpreted somebody who don't understand

:44:05.:44:09.

proportional representation as a loss. I tell you the ruins are good,

:44:09.:44:15.

we are getting positive feedback on the doorsteps, I'm hopefully can

:44:15.:44:18.

run and good campaign in Glasgow. What is your reading of the way

:44:18.:44:21.

things are going, Stewart Hosie? have set one target, which was to

:44:21.:44:27.

overtake Labour in terms of the number of votes cast. You said your

:44:27.:44:33.

target was to win Glasgow outright. No Margaret. Yes it was. I know

:44:33.:44:36.

what the SNP target was. I have heard it as well, are you changing

:44:36.:44:40.

your story? We want to be the largest party in terms of votes,

:44:40.:44:44.

going along with the largest party in terms of councillors, as we are

:44:44.:44:49.

at the present time. In relation to Glasgow, we are contesting 43

:44:49.:44:52.

candidates with 22 councils at the moment. We need all of them elected

:44:52.:44:57.

to wifpblt we are trying extremely -- win that. We are trying

:44:57.:45:00.

extremely hard to do that, and people are working flat out and

:45:00.:45:03.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS