15/05/2012 Newsnight


In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark.

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As the Greeks head for new elections, and edge closer to the


door marked "euro exit", the new French President meets the German


Chancellor, and suggests a new direction for Europe.


Sworn in and then his plane hit by lightning on route to Berlin, when


he finally stood beside Angela Merkel, he made no attempt to hide


their differences. TRANSLATION: Greeks must know that we will,


through measures of growth, support of activity, we will go towards


them. France and Germany tonight are at


odds, a formula that can easily unsettle the markets. And as the


head of the IMF openly talks about a messy Greek exit, how can we stop


the financial contagion spreading all the way to our shores. Also


tonight: I feel today is an attempt to use


me and others as escape goats, the effect of which will be to ratchet


up the pressure on my wife, who I believe to be the subject of a


witch-hunt. Rebekah Brooks and her husband charged with conspiracy to


pervert the course of justice, come out fighting.


The Employment Minister wants British firms to employ British


workers, like this one, why do they prefer migrant workers. He says he


can't have work, sometimes English people are lazy. Is it because they


are brighter, better or just cheaper?


Good evening, it was against the backdrop of the unfolding Greek


tragedy that Francois Hollande made his unexpectedly dangerous journey


to Berlin, changing planes after a lightning strike. His mission? To


live up to his election promises to set a new direction for Europe. In


the event, the joint conference between Hollande and Merkel was


fascinating, there was little attempt, especially by the French


President to disguise differences between them. Francois Hollande


said everything must be put on the table to promote growth, and hinted


there could be some room for manoeuvre over Greece. Is this a


real change in the mood music. Our diplomatic editor reports.


Oh la la, first he was drenched by a cloud burst laying a wreath, then


when Francois Hollande took to the air, heading for Berlin, his plane


was struck by lightning. All the while, another tempest, the


eurozone one gathers force. There is a belief on both sides a belief


of strong Franco-German relationship T has been strained by


different fill loss fees about austerity, and weaknesses in the


French economy, that mean it is no longer an equal relationship, and


there is a German suspicion that Germany will be asked to fund the


whole of the European Union, which they are not really up for.


Arriving delayed in Berlin, President Francois Hollande made it


clear he wants changes to the EU's Fiscal Compact, or austerity pact,


as well as a change from the old Merkozy style of political


management. TRANSLATION: I understand the


relationship between France and Germany, as a balanced and


respectful relationship. Balance between the two countries,


respectful of our political sensablities, and respectful of our


partners in Europe and European institutions. We want to work


together for the welfare of Europe. But through the mobilisation of all


the other countries of the union. France's new President, sworn in


this morning, is trying to set a fresh tone. His approach to the


euro crisis, like his Citroen, this morning, is a hybrid. He agrees


France must run a balanced budget, but he wants new spending to


stimulate growth, and suggested tonight he's prepared to revisit


existing agreements in order to get it. TRANSLATION: I have explained


that I want growth to be not only a word that can be uttered and


followed by tangible acts in truth, the best method is to put


everything on the table through the informal summit that will take


place on the 23rd of May, with the European council on the end of June.


The German Chancellorry are briefing out the line that there is


so much that unites the two leaders. There are differences, Mr Hollande


wants a new eurobond, a new type of debt. The Germans don't like that


idea at all. The two leaders disagree on how far they should


continue to help the banking sector. That issue is becoming all the more


vexed, because of the gathering crisis in Greece. After several


failed attempts to form a new Government committed to EU mandated


austerity measures, Greece today announced that it will be heading


back to the polls. Is its exit from the euro inevitable, the head of


the IMF gave this answer. certainly don't hope so, from the


IMF point of view. But we have to be prepared for anything. As I said,


with endorsement by the PASOK and the Conservative Party, we thought


that we had covered all the potential angles, clearly that was


not the case. So we have to be technically prepared for anything.


This evening, the new French leader told the Greeks he felt their pain.


But as for his formula of growth, Chancellor Merkel revealed a


certain scepticism about what it really meant. TRANSLATION: Growth


is a general term, and I'm pleased that we have agreed on talking


about the different ideas in terms of growth, and I'm not worried that


we could not have common ground. Possibly we have some different


opinions, but I'm really looking forward to our co-operation.


It is too early to start talking about a serious rift between France


and Germany. But, the eurozone storm clouds are gathering again


because of Greece. So the desire to reopen what was meant to be agreed


could easily produce more turbulence in the weeks ahead. As


you say, it is too early to talk about a serious rift, did you get a


sense of any real difference, of posturing and positioning? There


was posturing. Monsieur Hollande has been elected President, but his


Socialist Party is going in for the parliamentary elections in France


in a few weeks time. Everybody in Paris felt he couldn't step back


and roll over and accept a few general phrases from Mrs Merkel


today, he had to be true to his platform. Particularly looking


ahead to those elections. But, even if he was using stom some of those


phrases about re-- some of those phrases of revisiting the Fiscal


Compact, for underlying effect there are serious differences. If


people are talking about a new fund, a couple of hundred million euros,


who where will it come from. Monsieur Hollande suggests


eurobonds, Germany gets the feeling they will end up paying for those,


they are not keen on that idea. There are other serious divergences


of view, about serious sums of money, that could make it a


difficult relationship. One of the people advising the Syriza leader


in efforts to form a Government in Athens with us, and we have an


visor to President Hollande with us. You heard -- adviser to President


Hollande. You were listening to the speech and he said everything was


on the table and looking at policies for growth, was he serious


in suggesting something different than the Fiscal Compact with


Greece? I'm sorry I didn't get the end of your question. Was he


suggesting that there might be a change in the Fiscal Compact, or is


it going to be exactly the same position for Greece? I think in


Francois Hollande's platform, there was a commitment to steer Europe in


a new direction. It is very important for Francois Hollande to


put growth on the table, as he said. So Angela Merkel today was quite


open, maybe not to IRA negotiation of the treaty, but to an add dent


dumb, or another agreement, dealing with growth. Growth is on the top


of the agenda of Francois Hollande's agenda, and there might


be change in the coming weeks, and on the agenda of the French-German


relationship in. -- the future. In terms of Greece, did you get a


sense that he might change the Fiscal Compact or might be


approaching that? I didn't get that. The terms that Greece has signed up


to, did you get a sense that might be changed for Greece? About the


memorandum? Yes? No, I think the Francois Hollande said he was


waiting for the results of the elections, I think the conditions


for Greece to stay in the eurozone is on the memorandum. First of all,


Francois Hollande wants to know about the results of the election.


He said he would be respectful of the Greek people's votes. I think


for the moment he's waiting for the results. Do you get any sense that


there is going to be any change, it sounds as if it is business as


usual, you have to stick to the memorandum? Well, we hope that, I


mean after the fact that we are going to have elections in a you


few weeks in Greece. We hope that is the message we wanted to send as


a political party, in the previous elections, that we need a change in


the European strategy orientation. We need a change in order to


abandon all this austerity policies that have created all this crisis,


that does not resolve the debt crisis problem. We need a change in


these kinds of policies. We hope and we are optimistic with the


changes that have taken place in other countries in Europe, such as


in France, that there is hope in order to change this kind of policy.


But you say we don't want any of the austerity plans. The austerity


plans will be staying in place. The memorandum stays in place. You go


into elections, and the reality is, if you won't stick to the austerity


plans, you must be honest with the people and say you will leave the


euro, you will have to leave the euro, won't you? No, I don't


believe that. I would like to disconnect these two issues. For me


it is a totally different issue, remaining in the euro, and


abandoning the memorandum of austerity and bail out programme.


For me, right now, with these kinds of policies, the austerity policies


and the bail out policies, it is one way in order to make the crisis


much worse, much more intensive. Since this kind of policies have


been implement - these kinds of policies have been implemented in


other European countries, in Spain, Portugal, and Ireland, with these


kinds of policies, there is a very big, real threat for the eurozone


to be dissolved. In my point of view, the other policies,


abandoning the austerity policies, and encouraging pro-growth policies,


is the only way in order to have a viable eurozone. The only way to


try to create jobs, to boost growth, to stimulate investment. This is


the only way that the eurozone can deal with the debt crisis. Is there


any way, do you think, to renegotiate the Fiscal Compact for


the whole of the eurozone? I think it is going to be very difficult,


because it is -- Angela Merkel made it clear today that she was not


willing to reopen negotiations about the fiscal treaty, but maybe


the solution is a third way. I think, as I said before, we need to


steer Europe in a new direction, and austerity policies have proven


inefficient up until now, and we need to find a way to put growth on


the same level as the disciplines and social integration. I think if


not to renegotiate the treaty, but to put growth at the top in the


priorities of the agenda. Angela Merkel still holds the cards, if


there is no renegotiation of the Fiscal Compact, that is a central


thing. Hollande may get other things on the periphery, but not


the central thing he wants? know, the formal, the legal terms


of the agreements are not very important. The important thing is


what is inside the agreements. If it is not in the fiscal treaty, but


if we have an additional agreement, saying that growth is important,


that we need to boost the action of the European investment banks, that


we are going to implement this idea of project bonds, and that we


are...I'm Afraid we have lost the line to Paris. Thank you both very


much indeed. Contagion, like the title of a sci-


fi horror movie, is the word on the lips of politicians across Europe.


There is a deep uncertainty of the economies of every single European


country of Greece leaving the euro. Another election in that country,


is, on present opinion polling, is unlikely to turn up a result that


will change Greece's current direction of channel. Who will be


hit the hardest. Would a Greek contagion go with the exit? If for


whatever reason the Greek Government feels it can't or won't


meet the terms of the second bail out. That in itself would act as a


kind of trigger. The ECB, propping up the Greeks in the past couple of


years, won't give the money, the second trench from European


partners won't come. That on the ground will manifest into something


of a bank run. Not unlike what we saw four years ago in Northern Rock,


but on a far larger scale. The savers in Greece will want the hard


currency, in their hand, rather than potentially a soft currency


overnight in their bank account. The problem with that is it is


leading to a major problem on the ground .00 million euros has been


taken out of Greek banks yesterday alone -- 700 million euro has been


taken out of Greek banks yesterday alone. If that continues everything


will be gone in 100 days, that brings contagion. People in


Portugal, and Italy will say maybe I'm next, maybe I want my hard


currency in my mattress rather than in my account. They might move to


hard currency zones like Germany, the states, Switzerland or even


Britain. All the while the cost of borrowing for Spain, as it has done


for the past two days is starting to sore, making a bail out for


likely. What about the firewalls, how much money is there to put out


the fires? At the moment there is the EFSF, the European Financial


Stability Facility. This has remaining funds of �248 billion,


after bailing out -- 248 billion euros, this is after bailing out


Ireland. There is the ESM, with half a trillion euros, potentially,


depending on the contributions the member states might cough up, they


haven't all made the contribution yet. Then add in the IMF, that


usually makes a contribution in proportion to what the Europeans


have put on the able, for every two euros the European institutions put


on the table, the IMF will give one euro in bail out money as well.


British banks, how much are they in hock for? Not that much. Since the


major write-down of March, and the various different bail outs,


between them RBS, Lloyd's and Barclays, have about 800 million


direct exposure to Greece, and 8.3 to Spain. They have investments in


other banks and institutions that are heavily exposed to Greece and


Spain. For example, Credit Agricole, heavily exposed to Greece, their


shares are down 75% in the last six months. The contagion thing starts


to grow pretty big. Baroness Vadera is a former


investment banker and Business Minister who played a key role in


constructing Gordon Brown's response to the banking collapse of


2008. She went on to act as an visor for the G20. What did you --


advisor for the G20. What did you make of the meeting between


Hollande and Merkel and the tone of it tonight? Hollande is still in


election mode, that is something to remember. He has been election at


home to win. And there is no growth going to be readily agreed to. What


was interesting was his advisor, the interview you had with his


advisor, where she was pointing to the compromise direction, which is


a sort of addendum, saying we think growth is a very important thing,


we will have more money from the European investment bank. That is


all fine, but not necessarily going to magic some growth into Europe.


Frankly, if growth was that easy to magic, they would have done it


already. Though you have heard what Joe was


saying as well, from your own view, if Greece does essentially fall out


of the euro, do you think the rest of Europe will be able to cope.


What about the contagion? logical answer is they ought to be


able to cope. First of all, Greece is just 2% of the eurozone economy.


People have had two years to provision themselves and to deal


with what their exposure to Greece would be. The problem is, that


every time politicians have said, this is isolated to Greece, the


next thing that has happened is Ireland, and then Portugal, now we


have Spain in trouble, Italy will be next. Actually there is no


credibility and plausability in the system. So there is a really


serious policek of conat that stage. You heard also the members of the


Syriza Party, they are not willing to accept the austerity measures,


it looks like the next election will throw up a similar problem. Do


you think Greece will leave. What is your best guess? It is logical


for Greece to leave, I don't think the structure of their economy


belongs in the euro. I don't think it is inevitable that they will


leave. Fundamentally they are making a false choice. They are


essentially saying 70% of Greeks would rather the euro than the


drachma, but they don't want to pay the price of it. You heard that.


They are facing a false choice. At some point they will be forced to


make a real choice, and we don't know how they will respond then.


You were talking about his advisor there, but when Hollande was saying,


they would come towards them, and policies, do you think there could


be any move to Greece to delay a repayment, or something, to ease


their pain? I'm sure there can be guestures to ease their pain. But


for Greece there is really no getting away are from the fact that


they have a structurally difficult economy that is not competitive,


and they can't live within the euro. If you are saying that we should be


quite prepared for this, but there is a lot more we could do. What


else can we do, do you think, to protect ourselves from any


contagion? I'm sure they would never say so. But I'm sure there is


a plan. The minute they say there is a plan, it creates the


impression that Greece is about to leave. So they won't say it. I'm


pretty sure there are plans in the banking system, with the ECB, and


for the use of the firewall, although the firewall is not


actually fully under funded. doesn't really exist. -- Fully


funded. It doesn't really exist. How about problems hitting our


shores? We have had some exposure to Greece, all of the provisions


have been made. I think our problem is not exposure directly to Greece,


but exposure to the European banking system, which is very


fragile, not just because of Greece, but Spain and Italy. Essentially


one of the pieces of collateral damage from the financing that the


European Central Bank has been providing, is that French and


German banks have dumped their Spanish and Italian bonds, and


Italian and Spanish banks have been buying them. They are holding them,


and that is very fragile. Thank you very much.


Rebekah Brooks, the former chief executive of News International,


faces the prospect of a jail sentence, fee if she's found guilty


of the three charges of conspiring to pervert the course of justice


brought towed by the Crown Prosecution Service. Her husband,


Charley Brooks, charged alongside her with perverting the course of


justice, during the phone hacking investigations, told the press his


wife was the victim of a witch-hunt. And so this already convoluted


omniscandal develops another complex curlicue. Rebekah Brooks,


her husband, and four others, charged with conspiracy to pervert


the course of justice. As we waited for the announcement from the Crown


Prosecution Service at 10.00, the official news was scooped ten


minutes beforehand, by a statement from Mr and Mrs Brooks. When the


couple appeared outside their solicitor's office, late this


afternoon, they were angry and defiant. I feel today is an attempt


to use me, and others, as scapegoats, the effect of which,


will be to ramp chet up the pressure on my wife -- ratchet up


the pressure on my wife, who I also believe is the subject of a witch-


hunt. One day the details of this case le emerge, people will see --


case will emerge, people will see today as nothing more than an


expensive side show, and a waste of public money, as a result of an


injust and weak decision. The Crown Prosecution Service were


handed the file by the Metropolitan Police on the 27th of March,


relating to seven suspects. Rebekah Brooks, her husband, Charles Brooks,


Cheryl Carter, Miss Brooks PA, Mark Hanna, head of security at News


International, there are Brooks chauffeur, employed by News


International, Paul Edwards, and Daryl Jorsling, and a seventh


suspect, both of whom provided security for Mrs Brooks Brookes,


and made by News International. The CPS applies a two-stage test, first,


if there is a realistic chance of conviction, and secondly, if the


prosecution is in the public interest. Today the CPS announced


its conclusions. In relation to all suspects, except the seventh, there


is sufficient evidence for there to be a realistic prospect of convibs.


I then considered the second stage of the test -- conviction. I then


considered the second stage of the test, and I have concluded a


prosecution is in the public interest in relation to the six.


All have been informed of my decisions this morning. This is a


complex case with the need for more than one highlighter pen. The first


charge relates to all six suspects. Rebekah Brooks, between the 6th and


19th of July 2011, conspired with Charles Brooks, Cheryl Carter, Mark


Hanna, Paul Edwards, Daryl Jorsling and persons unknown, to conceal


material from officers of the Metropolitan Police Service.


the charges don't end there, charged two refers to simply


Rebekah Brooks and her former PA, Cheryl Carter, that between the 6--


9th of July 2011, they conspired together to permanently remove


seven boxes of material from the archives of News International.


Indeed all the charges relate to a very short period of time, just two


weeks in the summer of 2011, when there were, almost daily


revelations and developments in the phone hacking saga.


The period the offences are alleged to have taken place begins on the


6th July last year. Two days previously, the Guardian Newspaper,


carried allegations that the News of the World hacked Milly Dowler's


phone, and deleted some of her messages, giving her parents false


hope. More allegations followed the next day, Madeline McCann's parents


and victims of the 7/7 offences had their phones hacked too. Then David


Cameron committed to public inquiries into media practices in


phone hacking and the police. On the day after that, the 7th July,


News International announces it is closing the News of the World. The


following day, Andy Coulson was arrested in connection with


allegations of phone hacking and corruption. On the 15th of July,


Rebekah Brooks resigned as chief executive of News International.


Two days later she was arrested, and questioned for 12 hours, before


being released on police bail. The two-week period ends on 19th of


July, the day Rebekah Brooks gave evidence to a select Commons


committee. The final charge relates to the final four days of the


period. Rebekah Brooks, Charles Brooks, Mark Hanna, Paul Edwards


and Daryl Jorsling, conspired together and with persons unknown,


between the 15th-9th July, together to conceal papers and computers


from officers of the Metropolitan Police. The penalty is life


imprisonment at its maximum. It is something the courts make certain


they are not interfered with. far these are only charges, all of


the suspects are presumed innocent. Even so, that doesn't mean this


isn't politically embarrassing for David Cameron, who, until recently,


like previous prime ministers before him, was a friend, who


texted and socialised with someone now charged with such a serious


crime. Are foreign workers a more


attractive prospect for British employers than British-born workers.


Will the figures out for unemployment, particularly for


youth employment, have anything to do with the ready supply of


immigrant labour. Chris Grayling says it is easy to find an


immigrant labourer with five years experience, but there is workers


close to home too. We will discuss that with our


guests in a moment. First Allegra Stratton.


He's a rolling stone now, but once someone like Paul would have been


into rolling stock. It's late morning in the centre of


Crewe, and back in the day a thousand pools would knock out one


locomotive a week, now this man is without work, why? If someone said


to you the trouble is foreign workers have lots of skills, and


with the best will in the world you are not as skilled as them? It is


not always the truth. How not? Because there is people who are


qualified and that at jobs, but just can't get the jobs.


There are things about how you work that are more reliable than how


some Brits work? You have a get-up- and-go, which some Brits do not


have. Paul, behind us, says he can't get work, because of somebody


like you? He can get work. He says he can't? Not possible. Sometimes


English people are lazy. I don't know why they don't want to go


working in the agencies. Because they think that this is a lower


level, yeah. No, everybody can work in England, no problem.


The charge is this, the number of foreign workers in the UK went up


at the same time as the number of British workers in employment went


down. One cafe, Pret A Manger, had been found to employ entirely


foreign workers, not a Brit amongst them. We are lazy, not pubgt actual,


and not industrious, that is the problem. This is a stark graph of


Migrationwatch, a think-tank concerned by unchecked immigration,


puts it like this. They call it a remarkable coincidence that from


2004, and the arrival of eastern European workers, to 201, the


number of even European workers rose by 600,000, the unemployed


young rose by 450,000. Why don't you work in a warehouse? I have


done that. How long did it last? About two weeks. Why not longer?


Not many of my friends were there, and they only spoke Polish, they


talked around you, I don't like that. There is a job, this one here,


it looks all right, why not go for something like that, just to show


you can hold something down? would go for that, I have done bar


work, the thing is, when I send my CV and application, they will


refuse it. Why? There is probably better CVs out there than mine.


There is clearly a problem when young people are unemployed and


there is jobs available and they are going to migrants. I don't


think it tells us stopping immigration will solve youth


unemployment, it tells us that young people may not be qualified,


the jobs may be insecure and at low wages, and there may be a whole


load of other reasons why young people aren't getting the jobs.


If the foreign workers, 160,000 hadn't come to the country, you


couldn't say 160 young people could have been in work. That is not how


it works. But critics of the Government, who don't like the link,


think there is something in the fact that a steady supply of keen


immigrants means there is less incentive for places to train up


British workers, like Pete Waterman has done here.


Waterman has a philosophy, help the local kills burnish their careers,


by burnishing the local industry. What was the one skill you realised


you were not good at, notlessly a mechanical one? Getting up on time,


getting here and lasting the day. At no point when at the Jobcentre,


did you not say I clearly have a work ethic, I don't know what the


problem is? They weren't interested, they wanted to to be you off with


cleaning jobs, engineering is something I have always wanted to


do. They were just, it is just shocking to me, there is an


engineering shortage in this country, they should have


encouraged you. Do you think they didn't tailor your job search to


you? Not at all. They try to to be you off, cleaning jobs, because


there is lots of them about. Some urge a closer examination.


That sharp increase in the top line shows youth unemployment climbing


up during the recession. As the bottom line, net immigration from


Eastern Europe, plateaus. All agree we have a youth


unemployment problem, economic recession, and immigration. A


troubling trifecta has aligned. The Employment Minister, Chris


Grayling is here, along with the entrepeneur, Luke Johnson, who owns


high street patisseries, Nicola Smith, and a supplier of Polish


food for supermarkets, and Pete Waterman. What are British


employers to do, take second best British workers? The reality is it


is often easier, quicker, more straight forward to hire somebody


in their mid-20s, who has come half way across the continent to find


work, and has that level of get-up- a-go, compared with someone coming


out of college or university and struggling without experience. If


you give those people a chance and get them into an apprenticeship, we


can help turn their lives around. Businesses are having it tough


themselves, sometimes they don't have the time to make that choice,


they need good workers, working fast, well and imaginatively


straight away? I was out in my constituency last week, a local


house builder, big development, they have 500 apprenticeships,


because they have seen eastern workers -- eastern European workers


going elsewhere for the jobs. You can't be sure the workers will


always be there. What is your opinion on hiring? I'm in favour of


hiring locals where you can, we to in various of my companies. We are


on our way to creating 1,000 jobs a year, they are tough to fill. There


are times when you feel, perhaps, there isn't a culture here of a


work ethic, and perhaps some people are having a sense of entitlement,


it is a concern. You can be offering a thousand jobs in the


catering industry? Yeah, the fact is a lot of British people look


down on jobs in particular in the hospitality industry. That is a


problem. Attitude problem? I think the facts don't back that up. There


are one million people in the UK today working in hospitality in


retail. That is one third of all young people employed. There is


absolutely no evidence that British workers don't have the work ethic,


every month, 300,000 workers, moving off jobseeker's allowance,


we have far fewer jobs than before the recession. You are someone


looking for employees all the time, you are expanding your business, do


you think there is a problem with the work ethic among British


workers? A huge one, try to find British people who want to work on


Saturday evening or Sunday, or Christmas Day, or New Year's Eve,


they want to go out on those days, and somebody has to work. I suppose


you might say, that is a hole I dark are you prepared to


renumberate them well for working the decision days, -- renumerate


them for working on special days, or is it just foreign workers who


will do that? There is always minimum wage jobs, there is a


question of flexibility, attitude and multitasking. Let me put that


to Chris Grayling, there is an entrepeneur in this country, two,


in fact, not finding the right staff here? There is certainly a


job to be done in turning around the lives of some young people. We


have large numbers of young people growing up in communities or


families where no-one has worked. They are entering a world they


haven't known about. We have to do that. We have to help them take


those steps, by getting them into apprenticeships, and take a big


step forward in their careers and learn it can be a positive


experience in work. You did take, as it were, the slow


train to do it, Pete Waterman, you had to turn them around, you were


in a position where you could do that? I take a different attitude,


I take the attitude that if you train somebody properly, you have a


better worker. I have experienced exactly what we hear here, we start


at 7.30 in the morning, you say to kids you have to be at work at


7.30am, they don't understand what that is. Reuben nef lant? I started


work in certain circumstances, people were good to me, I believe


that if I get that respect and strength back, those two guys, you


saw in that film, particularly that girl, was seven years unemployed. I


was told she was unemployable. I have to tell you, she is my star


apprentice, she is my only female, not because I won't take female,


but she wanted the job. You want people who want to work. It is four


years, they need to work for me for four years, it is 15 months, two


years before I see a penny from them. But you can afford that?


can, because they have turned my business round. It is 15 months


before Pete Waterman will see a penny, for people in business just


now, that is a long time to wait? It is, it is very tough. We are not


in recession, we are close to one. A lot of companies are close to the


edge. You need people to be productive. Carrying workers who


are not delivering is an expense many businesses can't afford.


about the bigger principle, that a lot of foreign workers don't inject


as much into the economy as domestic workers do, because they


are repatriateing money, and they are not here for long, they won't


have as big an impact on the economy. Can you have that come


into our thinking? Immigration is important in all aspect of the


economy. We need students, we need brains, we need talent here. We


shouldn't start erecting barriers to immigration, because of


prejudice. I think this is a very bad error. Is that not a danger, if


you say British jobs for British workers, that is dangerous stuff?


It is not about British jobs for British workers, it is about


investing in the next generation. We can't afford to say, these gies,


they are 18, growing up in difficult circumstances, let's


forget about them. We have to turn their lives around. I keep meeting


people who have taken on young people, from difficult backgrounds,


turned them round and had exact low the same kind of story that Pete


has had. I agree, we need to take on more unemployed people, but the


best thing is to get the economy growing again. We saw in 2010, a


strong period of economic growth, over that period 300 jobs were


created in the private sector, two- thirds of which went to young


people. Strong jobs growth is best for young people, not stagnating


economy. We don't have a problem with the growth of the economy in


the UK. We have the problem with mental problems, people are


thinking young people, especially young people, who always have


everything, whatever background they are from, they are usually not


hungry, they didn't have to worry about delivering newspapers when


they were 10 or 11, they were given everything, they have education,


and they just think that they should get everything from life.


They don't have to work. Is there an issue with employee rights, are


people coming into the country more flexible, willing to take less and


put up with more? We have a million more unemployed people than four


years ago, that is not because people are laceier, but a


structural problem in the economy. I do agree employers have to do


more. If you look at the numbers of employers offering apprenticeships,


it is only 8%, we need help for those facing long-term unemployment,


getting rid of migrants won't help. There is lots of Government


incentives, but we have to offer jobs at the end. You can't ask


somebody to do all of this and there is nothing at the end. That


girl you saw, had been on seven schemes w no job at the end, that


is not right. Do you think workers coming are from other countries are


more willing, not to waive rights, but willing to do the double and


triple shift, where other people have kids to go home to, because


they are older, whatever, that actually it is a problem for


British workers, because they lose out for those kind of reasons?


and there is always a trade-off, I'm not suggesting for a second


that foreign workers are always better than local workers, I agree


employers need to invest. If we are saying to ourselves there is no


issue about work ethic, whatsoever, in the culture of this country,


that is misguided. There is a huge difference between


somebody who is 25, 26, coming half way across the continent to work in


the UK, somebody who has just left school coming from a difficult


background, no be work experience. We talk about a difficult


background, that is an element, but just in terms of general work


ethic? We need a transformation of our welfare state, that is what we


are doing at the moment. We have to have a situation where the welfare


state is not somewhere you can expect to live, it is a ladder up


where you climb. All the incentives have to push you towards work. That


is we are changing the benefits system so work pays, tougher rules


for those not trying to find a job. All that has to happen, we need the


employers to provide the opportunities too. People are


saying immigration for all sorts of reasons is a good thing. You seem


to be saying, and there is a co- relation, a lot of British young


people are out of work and a lot of immigrants are in work, you think


the two things, they are two sides of one coin? I don't think you can


prepare an exact mirror of the two, I'm convinced there is a link


between the growth and the number of people coming to Britain to work


and some of the unemployment challenges we face, I'm sure of


that. You feel the growth in immigration has contributed to


unemployment. Do you think it was a mistake to let people in from the


European community? There is a direct link. I think the previous


Government should have had transitional controls, every other


country did. You talk about a million young people unemployed, is


immigration leading to higher unemployment? The evidence shows


immigration has a small positive impact on employment levels in the


UK. We have immigrants creating jobs and growth, that is happening


in the UK. There are two things from the chart. Firstly, at the


point where unemployment was increasing, levels of migration


were stagnating or falling, there is not a co-relation. Secondly,


areas of high unemployment in the UK, are areas of the lowest my igs


gra. We talk about immigrants, let's talk about British people who


haven't got jobs. Kids leave school with no idea of what they are doing.


How can we expect kids leaving school, 17 and 18, they have no


idea what the profession is. Work is actually fun. You have been here


for a long time, you can see it coming up through the schools and


attitudes, where does the problem lies? There is a mental problem,


first of all, British people, because of many different reasons,


but basically because you have a huge empire, and half of the world,


or the whole world belonged to you, many British people think that they


are better than the rest of the world. And they think that they are


too good for certain jobs. And somebody else should be doing them.


That is exactly what Luke Johnson was saying, the attitude is we


don't have a great record in service, and we see a lot of people


coming to this country who are much more interested in looking after


other people. And they are saying that we don't have it in our


culture, in us is this attitude of entitlement? There are clearly


people out there who are not trying. But the unemployment people I meet,


the long-term unemployed I meet going around the country are


desperate to work. The real challenge is match those people


with opportunities and find employers willing to give them the


chance. There are people who would love to walk into work tomorrow,


who would work extremely hard for an employer who will give them a


chance. As we have been discussing, getting people off benefits and


back to work is one of the coalition Government's most


cherished goals. Embarrassing today, they announced the termination to


do just that, under A4e. The Government has been auditing its


commercial relationship with the company, and said one such contract


in the south-east of England would end, because continuing it would be


too great a risk. Chris Grayling is still here. We ask him about that.


The findings of the audit identified no evidence at all of


fraud in the company. Pretty desperate failure of judgment in


hiring this company? My view, and I have said it from the start, with


all of the contracts. If people don't fulfil the terms of the


contracts we are prepared to terminate them. We have done that.


Took a long time to do that? found out there was a problem two


months ago, we have sent in an audit team, we have not identified


fraud, but we have identified lax management practice, bringing them


into breach of contract, and we have taken a decision to terminate


it. I expect contractors to operate within the letter of the agreement


reached with us, and if they don't, we are prepared to act. That is the


end of the line, there is no contact between the Government and


that company? This is one of the contracts. Had we discovered


fraudulent behaviour, we would have finished all the contracts. We can


trust everything else is in order? Everything else is in order, the


work programme has had thumbs up for from those looking at it. We


will look carefully at all contractors to make sure there is


no problems in the future. Thank you very much. That is all from


Newsnight. In China they can build a three storey building in nine


days, maybe they will branch out to It's cold out there, a touch of


frost first thing, would you believe. It will be a sunny start,


it is said to be a fine day. There will be one or two showers, nothing


like the extent or the ferocity of showers some of us have seen over


the last couple of days. Dry and bright sums it up for most of us.


Lighter winds and more sunshine feeling warmer. Temperatures up to


14 degrees. Showers inland from the south coast of England, along the


South Downs, a shower or two. South-west England had a nice day


on Tuesday, more of the same on Wednesday. Broken cloud, sunny


spells, fairly light winds as well. Some of the best of the sunshine


across Wales will be towards the west coast. More cloud developing


inland. For Northern Ireland it will tend to cloud over, with rain


knocking on the door. By the time we reach the end of the afternoon.


Some of that cloud will be spreading into the west of Scotland


as well. Further east we hold on to the brightness through the


afternoon too. Enjoy it, on Thursday it turns wet, across many


northern parts of the country. Wet and chilly, some places struggle to


get out of single figures all day long. Further south, well the cloud


will increase, but hopefully the rain will hold off, so if you are


going to the first day of the first test at Lords, you will see some


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