28/05/2012 Newsnight


28/05/2012

Tony Blair goes to Leveson. The massacres in Syria. Heathrow and Boris. Tom Hiddleston, Simon Schama and Mark Rylance on Shakespeare. With Jeremy Paxman.


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He might have been Prime Minister, but he didn't feel bold enough to

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take on the press. The people may send you to Downing Street, he says,

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but the press are something else. You fall out with them, and you

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watch out, because it is literally relentless and unremitting, once

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that happens. This Government seemed cowed by an old fast,ed

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press campaign too. Tonight a u- turn on both the pasty tax and the

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caravan tax. The worst atrocity yet in Syria,

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what realistically can the rest of the world do.

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And later on. We happy few, we Band of Brothers. What does Shakespeare

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teach us about the art and devilry of political leadership. Fresh from

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Henry V, Tom Hiddleston discusses with Mark Rylance, and Simon Schama.

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Is the Government creeping back towards a third runway at Heathrow.

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Boris Jonsson prefers a plan not involving his own back -- Sir

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Gordon Borrie Jonsson prefers a plan not involving his own back

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yard. It is good because it is off the map, because there are fewer

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votes to lose. There are fewer human beings.

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Two months ago it was an essential part of sorting out the tax system,

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tonight, the plan for imposing VAT on Cornish pasties has been

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abandoned. Game, set and match to a campaign in the press.

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We learned a lot more about the power of the press and how it looks

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in Downing Street, when Tony Blair took the stand at the Leveson

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Inquiry today. We learned too that whoever is paying for Tony Blair's

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large security detail and the administration of the inquiry, for

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example, you and me, isn't get especially good value for money. We

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learned why the former Prime Minister decided not to confront

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the press, but he said to try to manage it.

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He is The Godfather of Gloom, not just to one of Rupert Murdoch's

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children, but for many, The Godfather of Gloom of modern

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political media management. Half a decade out of power, and can he

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still draw a crowd. Today Mr Blair was at the heart of the story once

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again. I swear by Almighty God that the evidence I shall give shall be

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the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. He said as a

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political leader, witnessing the savagry of the press, he faced a

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choice, take on the power of the media, or attempt, some how, to

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harness it. It is not that, as it were, I was afraid of taking them

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on, in that sense, but I knew that if I did, you have to be very, very

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clear about this, and that was the debate I had with Alastair, and

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others within Government all the way through. If you take this on,

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do not think for a single moment you are not in a long, protracted

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battle that will shove everything else to one side whilst it is going

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on. Instead Mr Blair tried to get close, famously travelling to

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address a News Corporation meeting in Australia, in 1995.

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I wouldn't have been going, of course, not all the way around the

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world. I remember I had to go after one Prime Minister's Questions, and

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return for the next, if it hadn't been a very deliberate and

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strategic decision that I would go and try to persuade them. I had a

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minimum and maximum objective. The minimum objective was to stop them

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tearing us to piece, and the maximum objective, was to open the

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way to support. But, Mr Blair insisted, there was no deal with

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urd -- Rupert Murdoch's -- Rupert Murdoch or anyone else? I wouldn't

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have gone if I hadn't had a strong interest in us legislating on the

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media, absolutely, but im plied deal of media interest, absolutely

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not. I don't think we will miss you. During his decade in power, Mr

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Blair said he saw countless examples of the press trying to rip

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someone apart. Not least, he said, what amounted to a vendetta against

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his wife. Who, he revealed, has used lawyers to challenge stories

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about her on 30 separate occasions. Powerful people within these

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positions will say, right, we are going after that person, what

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happens is, they will go after you. As I say, it is full on, full

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frontal, day in, day out. That is not journalism. In my view. That is

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an abuse of power, actually. those tuning into Mr Blair

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expecting to hear revelation, well, it was something of a

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disappointment. We learned very little that hasn't already come out

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in numerous inquiries, and countless biographies and

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autobiographies of the Blair era. And part Lewis because he was in

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office, and partly because of his technophobe character. Mr Blair

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never had a mobile phone or e-mail while in Downing Street. So he

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didn't have to explain any of the chummy messages that other

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witnesses have been confronted with. This was n many ways, a classic

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Blair event. Whilst he looked very, very relaxed, others got very, very

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excited. He held up the Iraq Bank for �20 billion. A protestor some

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how found his way through the judges' door into the court....JP

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Morgan, after he left office, the man is a war criminal. Mr Blair

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deed nationwide the man's accusations, and the inquiry

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promised another inquiry as to how he got in. Mr Blair was famously on

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kissing terms with News International, today we learned

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that Rupert Murdoch and he had three telephone conversations in

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the days before the Iraq War. So what's the solution? Well, Mr Blair

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says the press are so soufrl, because when they turn it is not --

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so powerful, because when they turn it is not just their opinion and

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leader columns that get poisonous, but also their news coverage. He

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said they should be given a duty to separate the two. Three problems,

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according to critics, who decides where that line s who polices it,

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and what is the sanction for those who cross it.

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As he left pl, Blair knew he hadn't been tripped up or ripped --'s left,

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Mr Blair knew he hadn't been tripped up or ripped up by the

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inquiry, although he had got to say his side of things. But someone did

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get to throw an egg at him. Tessa Jowell and Stephen Glover,

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who has devoted a fair number of column inches to criticising the

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former Prime Minister. A man with land slight majorities in Downing

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Street, and the power to send troops to war and all the rest of

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it, complains about the press? don't think he complains about it,

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he was setting out throughout the whole of today and his evidence, a

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very clear strategic judgment, that you would reek havoc by trying to

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intervene and regulate the -- wreak havoc by trying to intervene and

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regulate the press. Instead you would try to manage the press, and

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get as much coverage for things as possible, but never live in hope.

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That was a reasonable ambition? reasonable ambition to get on with

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the press. The trouble was he thought getting on with the press

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meant sucking up to Rupert Murdoch. And getting so close to Rupert

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Murdoch, that within the eight days before we went to war in Iraq they

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spoke many times on the telephone. Is there any modern country where

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that would happen. He spoke to other editors at that very

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sensitive time. Not to the same extent three days the Iraq War.

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Telegraph, and the Mirror, in order that their readers could also

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understand why this momentous decision had been taken.

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anything like to the same extent. I mean, there were very few cabinet

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ministers who spoke with Blair three times in the days before we

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went to war. This was a relationship very much much closer

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than any other editoral proprietor. You conceded when you were

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appointed, Culture Secretary, you said you went to see the Prime

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Minister, and said is there any deal with Murdoch to give him what

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he wants on media regulation? wouldn't say I conceded, I wanted

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to establish exactly what the brief was that I was taking on. Why did

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you find it necessary to go and ask the Prime Minister whether such a

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deal had been done? Because I needed to be clear that I had, as a

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new Secretary of State, complete free rein to decide. Why should

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you? In exactly the same as the other issue I sought assurance on,

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if I was to sort out the position with Wembley Stadium, then the

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Football Association wouldn't come and see the Prime Minister behind

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my back. You had spae civic anxiety about Rupert Murdoch? -- a specific

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anxiety about Rupert Murdoch? You must have done otherwise you

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wouldn't have asked? I had a specific question about Rupert

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Murdoch, which was a prerequisite to my doing the job properly.

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you also ask him if there was a deal done with the Guardian, the

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Independent, the mirror ob anybody else? I asked him -- Or anybody

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else? I asked him specifically about Rupert Murdoch. The fact was

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that the Prime Minister did not see him, and the legislation I took

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through parliament, and concluded in 2003, gave Rupert Murdoch

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virtually nothing that he had lobbied, or News International had

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lobbied. You can make a face like that. I only wanted to know why you

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wanted the assurance, or felt you needed to have the assurance?

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wanted the assurance, in order that I knew the terms on which I was

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going to negotiate, not just with News International, but all the

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other media companies that I saw oifr that time. You didn't ask --

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Over that time. You didn't ask any of the others, as you agreed today.

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Mr Blair saw the Mail has being a real enemy of his, he said today,

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he said he had an analysis done while in Downing Street of 100

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stories printed in the Mail, and all 100 were hostile to him? That

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may be, I don't know. The Mail was the only paper which new Labour

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couldn't win over. They tried to win it over in the late 1990s, they

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petitioned the propriety and the editor, and they didn't get very --

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proi proprietor, and the -- proprietor, and they tried the

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editor but they didn't win them all over. There was the time between

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the 1996 election and the 2001 election where the whole press was

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Blairite. Isn't the point conceded by Tony Blair, that there isn't any

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distinction between fact and comment in the Mail? The Mail is

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surely free to run comment articles, critical of Tony Blair, I have

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written a few in my time. He's saying there is no distinction?

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He's wrong about. That he didn't give any examples, he gave one

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example. He said there were 100 stories and all hostile? I don't

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know if 100 stories were, 100 pieces, articles, he didn't give

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specific examples about how comment had crept into news. He kept going

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on about it, but he didn't give any examples. An old fast,ed tabloid

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campaign seems to have done for the budget, its plans to intro-- --

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introduce a called pasty tax, and changes to the caravan tax. It was

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thought this announcement was made while ministers were on holiday to

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reduce embarrassment, according to the opposition. Pasty tax is dead?

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And the caravan tax. This story is both frivolous and serious, because

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talking about caravans and pasties isn't what any of us went into

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political journalism to do. It is serious for a number of reasons,

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this is a Government worried about its perceptions being out-of-touch,

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and the damage on these two and a series of things has already been

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done. It is also a serious thing because it looks like a Government

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that doesn't know its own mind. A few weeks ago they were talking

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about steadfast surety that they wouldn't backtrack on these, even

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though there was opposition from the get-go. There is the squeeze in

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how much life costs, when you can find �100 million to row back on

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caravan and pasty tax, but you can't find money on things like

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fuel duty, people will wonder about priorities. But it is the

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consequence, is it not, of a newspaper campaign? It is the

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consequence, but also of a series of MPs in the west of England who

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are feeling this isn't something they want to go back to ahead of

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the Jubilee weekend. I don't know if it is necessarily about

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newspapers, but they amplify, don't they. We would have liked to talk

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to a Treasury Minister, but no-one was available. But Stephen Glover

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this looks like the media exercising power and

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responsibility? It is comical, pasties and caravans, people say,

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but it is what it signifies? think the media spointing out a

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stupid an -- is pointing out a stupid anomally in the budget, and

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90% of the British public is probably on the media's side, they

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are reflecting what people think. The idea that the media will click

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its hands and the Government will change its mind, it is wrong,

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people are asking every day for the Government to stop doing what they

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are doing. This was clearly a cock- up, and the Government have

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sensibly stepped down. There is a massive area that is controversial

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in the budget, that is the 50p rate of tax going, that remains, but

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tweaks around the edges. What do you make of it? It is just a

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shambles. I mean I absolutely agree with the analysis. But I would like

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very quickly to touch on Stephen's point about newspaper campaigns, I

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think newspapers are entirely free, and should run campaigns. I think

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we, Stephen's paper ran a pretty ghastly campaign against the

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licensing act, against gambling legislation, they didn't win on

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either accounts. They won a campaign on Stephen Lawrence?

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did, not all campaigns are won, and some campaigns, actually, have more

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integrity than others. You don't dispute their right to do it?

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don't dispute their right to do it. For one moment. It is perfectly

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true that newspapers don't always win their campaigns, I must say the

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Mail of completely right about gambling. Why new Labour fell in

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love with gambling, God only knows. New Labour never fell in love with

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gambling, it was in order to make the public safer at a time when

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many more people were gambling. Shall we talk about this another

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time. I think we better do that. Thank you very much.

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You can believe the United Nations or you can believe President Bashar

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Al-Assad's propaganda machine. The former UN Secretary-General, Kofi

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Annan, is trying publicly at least, to keep an open mind on who

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murdered over 100 people, nearly half of them children, in the

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Syrian town of Houla on Friday. The Russians, who have been Al-

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Assad's main international protector shifted ground slightly

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today, admitting that the regime was, at least, partially

:15:56.:16:01.

responsible for the killings. Our diplomatic editor is here. Are

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we any closer to finding out what happened in Houla? There have been

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more details, and they are pretty shocking, really. In the initial

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hours after the attack, we can look at a map over the region. It is an

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I can't remember to the North West of Homs, a place where there had

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been known to be a great deal of fighting and suffering already. Up

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there in Houla, in the hours initially afterwards, a lot of

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focus on state artillery, and after Friday payers and demonstrations

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there was artillery fired into howl LA soon it progressed to a town

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south of it Taldou an extended family clan, more than 60 of those

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killed were killed at close range by gunmen, with shots to the head.

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That is becoming clearer in the last couple of days from survivors'

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accounts. TRANSLATION: I swear to God, they

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killed my husband, they killed 12 members of my household. This baby

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is my niece, they killed her mother and her sister. The thugs made us

:17:07.:17:11.

come down stairs, they started their carnage, I lost four

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daughters and other family members. The attackers were dressed in

:17:15.:17:18.

military fatigue, and came in a white car, they stormed our homes

:17:18.:17:23.

and started a shooting spree. baby did survive, but not the rest

:17:23.:17:30.

of her family, of course. What's become clear from rebel accounts,

:17:30.:17:33.

resistance accounts, is these people were unofficial

:17:33.:17:38.

paramilitaries, murder squads, death squads, if you choose to call

:17:38.:17:43.

them that. The Syrian Government denied, that blaming it on called

:17:43.:17:48.

terrorists, US, and everybody else seems to accept that. These

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international phrases have been carefully worded, in, for example,

:17:51.:17:55.

the UN's statement over the weekend. The resistance seems to see this as

:17:55.:18:01.

a moment of truth where they can began vanise public opinion. This

:18:01.:18:05.

shocking image, a dead child, placed on the bonnet of one of the

:18:05.:18:09.

UN vehicles as they went into Houla at the weekend. It is a horrible

:18:09.:18:13.

incident. What has been the diplomatic response? Because of

:18:13.:18:17.

what happened, there was this urgent UN presidential statement,

:18:17.:18:19.

the Security Council presidential statement at the weekend. Now, some

:18:19.:18:23.

people feel this is part of a pattern of Russia and China, who

:18:23.:18:26.

had blocked serious action in the UN last year, coming closer to

:18:26.:18:30.

being on side. The Russians point out that they, for example, have

:18:30.:18:34.

agreed to the deployment of those monitor, they have signed up to the

:18:34.:18:38.

two presidential statements recently condemning Syria. In that

:18:38.:18:41.

spirit, William Hague, the British Foreign Secretary went to Moscow

:18:41.:18:44.

today, to try to get more out of the Russians and see if there was

:18:44.:18:49.

room to push this whole agenda forward of more robust action.

:18:49.:18:53.

Instead he found Sergey Lavrov, the Russian Foreign Minister, still

:18:53.:19:03.

apparently apportioning blame equally in Moscow today.

:19:03.:19:07.

TRANSLATION: We are dealing with a situation in which both sides

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participated in the killings of innocent civilian, including

:19:12.:19:18.

several small children and women. This district is controlled by the

:19:18.:19:21.

armed militants, at the same time it is encirleled by Government

:19:21.:19:31.
:19:31.:19:33.

forces. -- -- encirleled by Government forces. Where does it

:19:33.:19:39.

leave international mediation? of the reports seem to indicate

:19:39.:19:43.

escalation. The fact that money and weapons do seem to be getting

:19:43.:19:48.

through from Qatar, to the Free Syrian Army, the rebel forces, the

:19:48.:19:52.

fact that there is a complete diplomatic past Tiel, there was

:19:52.:19:55.

strong language at the weekend, but the Russians are still determined

:19:55.:20:00.

to hold on to a transition arrangement they want to call the

:20:00.:20:04.

shots upon. We must never forget in this the US presidential cycle

:20:04.:20:09.

seems to be determining a US attitude not to lead a strong

:20:09.:20:12.

international response to this, particularly if it might involve US

:20:12.:20:19.

troops. Bashar Al-Assad is the sort of bloody tyrant who might have

:20:19.:20:26.

been drawn by Shakespeare, Macbeth, Richard II II or tight Andronicus,

:20:26.:20:29.

we are reflected this week in Britain through the writings of

:20:29.:20:37.

three British authors, no better space to start with spaix peer --

:20:37.:20:40.

Shakespeare, on the question of leadership. What does he have to

:20:40.:20:45.

tell us about it, and do we care about it any longer. Two of our

:20:45.:20:48.

leading actors and a foremost historian will try to answer those

:20:48.:20:58.
:20:58.:21:07.

"Be not afraid of greatness, some are born great, some achieve

:21:07.:21:15.

greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them". "Uneasy lies the

:21:15.:21:25.
:21:25.:21:25.

head that wears the crown ". "Men of few words are the best men".

:21:25.:21:30.

"The smallest worm will turn, being trodden on".

:21:30.:21:35.

When we are not out on the street, calling for our leaders to depart

:21:35.:21:39.

the stage at the first available opportunity, we are indulging in

:21:40.:21:44.

other colourful traditions of our island story, like celebrating the

:21:44.:21:48.

anniversary of a popular sovereign, coming to the throne.

:21:48.:21:54.

Who would be a leader, at the mercy of our whims and appetites.

:21:54.:22:01.

By being seldom seen, I could not stir, but like a comet, I was

:22:01.:22:10.

wondered at. Sir Richard Eyre has been directing

:22:10.:22:17.

Henry IV, as part of a Jubilee season of Shakespeare plays for the

:22:17.:22:21.

BBC. All Shakespeare has become proverbial, it is there, thank God,

:22:21.:22:29.

as part of the DNA of British life. Sketch writers, voters, we often

:22:29.:22:32.

see politicians in Shakespearian terms, do you think they do

:22:32.:22:37.

themselves? I think most of them aspire, and it is not a very close

:22:38.:22:47.
:22:48.:22:49.

reading of the play, to hen vee V. We few, -- Henry V. We few, we

:22:49.:22:54.

happy few, we Band of Brothers. is the exemplary piece of political

:22:55.:22:59.

rhetoric, they all see themselves, at party conference, standing up

:22:59.:23:06.

and rousing the troops in that way. We are Conservatives, we will speak

:23:06.:23:13.

of pride, of honour, of valour in battle, and yes, of glory.

:23:13.:23:17.

The voice of the real people, with real needs, is louder than all the

:23:17.:23:23.

boos. Education, education, and education. As with Henry V, it is

:23:23.:23:29.

quite cynical, and it doesn't solve the problem of how to govern. How

:23:29.:23:33.

to govern is the constant preoccupation, in play after play,

:23:33.:23:39.

after play, after play, of Shakespeare's, it is how do you

:23:39.:23:47.

manage a society that has internal dissent.

:23:47.:23:53.

Shakespeare is brilliantly perceptive about the virus of power.

:23:53.:23:56.

The laughable in British politics, it is always in the House of

:23:56.:24:00.

Commons you see aggressive opposition. That is absolutely

:24:00.:24:04.

endemic. If we listened to the muttering idiot sitting opposite

:24:04.:24:11.

me... I'm taking the Shakespeare Way, which goes from Stratford to

:24:11.:24:17.

London. And passes through Chipping Norton. It has been one of the most

:24:17.:24:21.

important centres of power in the country, home to David Cameron and

:24:21.:24:26.

his influential friends. The whole Chipping Norton set thing is so

:24:26.:24:30.

interesting, it is something that would have been unremarkable 50 or

:24:30.:24:33.

100 years ago, when Harold Macmillan was swaning around

:24:33.:24:36.

clubland or something. Nobody thought anything of it. Now we live

:24:36.:24:42.

in this populist, individualistic, democratic age, where people almost

:24:42.:24:45.

slightly resent the idea that everybody at the top knows one

:24:45.:24:50.

another, there is this pat tricks world that ordinary people are shut

:24:50.:24:56.

out of. The idea of leadership has become quite suspect. We live in a

:24:56.:24:59.

completely different intellectual world from the one that Shakespeare,

:24:59.:25:03.

or even someone like Gladstone inhabited. We live in an age of

:25:03.:25:08.

universal literacy s mass education, and so on, where your opinion is as

:25:08.:25:12.

good as the next man's, you won't be talked down to and led, that

:25:12.:25:19.

kind of eno sir makes it hard for somebody to -- -- that kind of

:25:19.:25:25.

ethos makes it hard for somebody to stand up and say I will lead and

:25:25.:25:29.

guide you. The Shakespeare Way runs from Chipping Norton to Oxford,

:25:29.:25:33.

David Cameron travelled in the opposite direction. But in common

:25:33.:25:38.

with many frontline politicians, he likes to play down his prestigious

:25:38.:25:42.

education, preferring to advertise his taste for a humble snack, which

:25:42.:25:48.

was around in Shakespeare's time. In search of further clues about

:25:48.:25:53.

Shakespeare and leadership, I have come to the historic city of Oxford,

:25:53.:26:00.

to a hallowed spot, forever associated with the Bard. An

:26:00.:26:06.

absolutely steeped place in his offerings, it is just above the

:26:06.:26:12.

bookmakers. Believe it or not, this was once a

:26:12.:26:17.

hotel room, and the swan of Avon himself once stayed here, scuffed

:26:17.:26:20.

and partially hidden behind a sliding panel, these walls are

:26:20.:26:24.

thought to be largely unchanged since his time. Shakespeare bedded

:26:24.:26:28.

down here with the common man and woman. He understood their desires

:26:28.:26:32.

couldn't always been indulged by a good leader.

:26:32.:26:36.

Leadership is sometimes about uncompromising, and other times it

:26:36.:26:42.

is about a dialogue. I'm very struck in the case of David Cameron,

:26:42.:26:47.

that he has this extraordinary valuation of friendship, that he

:26:47.:26:53.

will standby his friends, whatever happens. But an essential part of

:26:53.:26:57.

leadership, has to be being a good butcher. Henry V is a good butcher.

:26:57.:27:03.

If it comes to it, he chooses the right course for his country, even

:27:03.:27:08.

if it that means betraying, destroying, his friends.

:27:08.:27:15.

This is London. And so is this. the Second World War, another

:27:15.:27:21.

leader, who understood the rallying power of Shakespeare's prose,

:27:21.:27:26.

commissioned this famous version of Henry V, from Laurence Olivier.

:27:26.:27:32.

Once more unto the breach. Prime Minister Churchill wanted to

:27:32.:27:38.

inspire the troops serving on D-Day, the film was even dedicated to them.

:27:38.:27:46.

Charge, cry God for Harry, England and St George.

:27:46.:27:51.

Motivation when it works is like an adrenaline shot, it pumps people up,

:27:51.:27:56.

so that at the end, when he says "cry God, for Harry, England and St

:27:56.:28:02.

George". They are saying, let's go. Olivier's son, Richard, uses the

:28:02.:28:05.

same ringing oratory to teach management skills to business

:28:05.:28:10.

leaders. Many leaders, in our experience, on day 90 of the

:28:10.:28:16.

campaign, given Henry's situation, do not say, "Once more unto the

:28:16.:28:22.

breach", they come in with a detailed report of the performance

:28:22.:28:27.

indicators of the first three months of the siege.

:28:27.:28:33.

Human beings need purpose and leaders who tell a good story, hold

:28:34.:28:38.

that for us. There does seem to be a contempt for leaders, can

:28:38.:28:42.

Shakespeare help us out of it? biased, I think Shakespeare can

:28:42.:28:46.

guide us through pretty much anything, if you find the right

:28:46.:28:50.

play and look at it in the right way. There is that absolute sense,

:28:50.:28:56.

in people, that we want better leaders. Unfortunately, I would

:28:56.:29:00.

probably also say we tend to get the leadership we deserve. What are

:29:00.:29:04.

we not doing, what are we not developing in our leaders, what

:29:04.:29:10.

permission are we giving them to be greedy, or rapacious, who is

:29:10.:29:14.

rewarding them? The good news for today's politicians is that they

:29:14.:29:18.

rarely have to settle their differences as they did in

:29:18.:29:21.

Shakespeare's plays, and the worst they have to fear is a clash of

:29:21.:29:26.

personalities. Rile royal rile, as well as

:29:26.:29:29.

starring in the smash hit, Jerusalem, has played more

:29:30.:29:34.

Shakespearian characters than most of us have had hot dinners, he's

:29:34.:29:38.

here with fellow actor, Tom Hiddleston, who has just finished

:29:38.:29:43.

shooting a new production of Henry V, and Simon Schama, historian,

:29:43.:29:50.

whose latest series, Shakespeare and Us, broadcasts next week. What

:29:50.:29:53.

does Shakespeare teach us about leadership? They are all human

:29:53.:29:58.

beings, and he so loves opposites, that even in a character like

:29:58.:30:04.

Richard II I, he gives him a remarkable speech of conscience,

:30:04.:30:09.

Macbeth has a large speech of conscience, Henry V is a very

:30:09.:30:13.

responsible leader, but there are two plays before where he's most

:30:13.:30:17.

irresponsible, doing the equivalent n my mind, of taking ecstacy, and

:30:17.:30:23.

going out every nightclubing. He shows is humanity. I wonder if we

:30:23.:30:28.

expect our leaders to be perfect in all fields. A leader in another

:30:28.:30:36.

area, like Dogg ery, in Much Ado About Nothing, a village constable,

:30:36.:30:42.

so was the plot, he finds, through ineptitude, the evil going on. Is

:30:42.:30:46.

it right, I have been thinking, is it right to expect our leaders to

:30:46.:30:52.

be very strong in every area. If Martin Luther King had been alive

:30:52.:30:58.

now, under the scrutiny of the press now, and we learned about his

:30:58.:31:02.

infidelties and misbehaviour, would he have ever got to the capital and

:31:02.:31:05.

made the speech. Would we have been better off to have known everything

:31:05.:31:09.

about him and rejected him. This question of the humanity, that the

:31:09.:31:12.

person is not only the office but they are a human being, is

:31:12.:31:18.

something, as Mark remarks, is something that has been, until very

:31:18.:31:21.

recently, is something very hard for people to deal with? It was an

:31:21.:31:26.

issue for the Elizabethan, because the Queen, Elizabeth I, very

:31:26.:31:32.

unusually, in the Tilbury speech, for example, her entire authority

:31:32.:31:34.

was predicated, not on her remoteness, but actually the

:31:34.:31:40.

illusion, at least, that she was one of everybody else. So already

:31:40.:31:45.

that dilemma of how do you actually be familiar, and yet Auguste, and

:31:45.:31:53.

the two, those two -- aug ust, and those two role models, endlessly

:31:53.:31:55.

grinding against each other, goes through Shakespeare all the time.

:31:55.:32:01.

He lived in both world, he's an actor, he roughs it a bit where he

:32:01.:32:08.

lives, but he also plays abefore the court. You have played the most

:32:08.:32:13.

inspirational of the lot, Henry V? The thing is it dramatises the

:32:13.:32:21.

tussle between the responsibility of public office, and the private,

:32:21.:32:24.

almost torment, of personal accountability, are very aware. One

:32:24.:32:31.

of my favourite lines from the play, is on the eve of ago again court,

:32:31.:32:37.

Henry V, disguised under the cloak of one of his captains, gets into a

:32:37.:32:42.

debate with a soldier with kingship and responsibility, and this

:32:42.:32:44.

character Williams is casting various aspersions about, it will

:32:44.:32:48.

be a black matter when all the arplgs and legs chopped off in

:32:48.:32:53.

battle said they would died in such a place, it is a black matter for

:32:53.:32:58.

the king who led them to it. Henry's response is every subject's

:32:58.:33:01.

duty is the king's, but every subject's soul is his own.

:33:01.:33:09.

How do you think, you have just played it now, for this BBC series.

:33:09.:33:14.

Did you think about how the mood of the times made it a different sort

:33:14.:33:19.

of person you were portraying, to, for example, Olivier there in 1944?

:33:19.:33:25.

Yes, I did. I was in no way going to match or compete with Olivier's

:33:25.:33:33.

portrayal, I think. I think because, and I have discussed this a lot, I

:33:33.:33:38.

think in our society, we don't trust rhetoric in the same way. We

:33:38.:33:46.

are all used to seeing. This is interesting, Dominic Sandbrook, in

:33:46.:33:49.

the piece there, talking about society now, we are not willing to

:33:49.:33:53.

indulge a belief in the magical properties of leaders, in the way

:33:53.:33:56.

that perhaps some leaders Oregan rations were, or we think they

:33:56.:34:01.

were? -- or generations were, or we think they were? The thing about

:34:01.:34:05.

Henry V, that distinguishes him from contemporary leaders, that the

:34:05.:34:08.

men and women in the highest positions of power, were also the

:34:08.:34:13.

men and women physically leading their armies to battle. Henry V is

:34:13.:34:20.

able to give the speech, and thump on the horse and ride into battle -

:34:20.:34:24.

- jump on the horse and ride into battle himself. I live in America

:34:24.:34:29.

all the time, and whether or not Obama's rhetoric, who is a master,

:34:29.:34:37.

is an asset or liability, it was a grey asset in 2008, we don't know,

:34:37.:34:42.

he has the ability to produce rhetorical rabbits from the hat.

:34:42.:34:46.

Rhetoric does change power, Churchill's rhetoric changed what

:34:46.:34:51.

the cabinet said it would do. It is in Shakespeare's own time, that

:34:51.:34:58.

regular kids in village grammar schools were taught rhetoric, books,

:34:58.:35:03.

The Garden of Eloquence. You could be a lower person from a lower

:35:03.:35:06.

middle-class background, and suppose you could not get through

:35:06.:35:10.

school unless you spoke. This is why my dad, when I was nine, forced

:35:10.:35:14.

me to do a speech, standing on chair in my mother's lounge, as we

:35:14.:35:20.

called it. I never did that, did you? No. That is why you are actors,

:35:20.:35:25.

and I'm not. Do you think it is hard to be a leader, we live in a

:35:26.:35:29.

very, very different time, where people are much more inclined to

:35:29.:35:33.

make their own judgments about more or less everything, everything

:35:33.:35:36.

become a more difficult people to lead? I always think, Jeremy, when

:35:36.:35:40.

I was a young man I used to drive too fast sometimes, people would

:35:40.:35:44.

tell me slow down, and I wouldn't. One day I was driving too fast in

:35:44.:35:49.

Kent, and someone in the back, a young woman said, look, I had an

:35:49.:35:53.

accident six months ago, would you please slow down, because it is

:35:53.:35:57.

frightening me. And I slowed down. Because she spoke from experience.

:35:57.:36:01.

And so many, like that wonderful quote, and that wonderful scene,

:36:01.:36:05.

that these leaders were able to go amongst the people, and get

:36:06.:36:09.

experience. Not like Diana and Fergie, going out to have a party,

:36:10.:36:14.

but you think of the Duke in Measure For Measure, so many, Ross

:36:14.:36:19.

land, and all these Princesses, are able to go into a situation in

:36:19.:36:22.

disguise and find out about it truthfully, and they learn from

:36:22.:36:32.
:36:32.:36:33.

that. Or live wildly as Henry V do, part of his experiences mean that

:36:33.:36:37.

now we couldn't elect him. understands who he is leading.

:36:37.:36:41.

Because of the rough experiences he goes through. The fact is s I don't

:36:41.:36:45.

want to harp on the Virgin Queen, why not, she's the only one who has

:36:45.:36:51.

done it. She did go on progress, and she did this in great carriages,

:36:51.:36:54.

trundling along, surrounded by courtiers, but she had the common

:36:54.:36:59.

touch. When there was a little geezer in Warwick, at that progress,

:36:59.:37:03.

who couldn't barely get the words out of greeting to the between. She

:37:04.:37:08.

said come hiter, whatever his name was, she absolutely, whatever it

:37:08.:37:15.

was about her, that has never happened since in that way. She was

:37:15.:37:19.

taught by a tutor, who taught her rhetoric, it was a hard thing to

:37:19.:37:23.

pull off. When I came into the profession, I had a real aversion

:37:23.:37:28.

to actors who sang Shakespeare, I think it goes hand-in-hand with the

:37:28.:37:31.

kind of rhetoric people do believe, in the case of someone like George

:37:31.:37:35.

Bush, who can't even put a sentence together, the man can't be pulling

:37:35.:37:40.

the wool over our ears, because he can hardly speak. That is a form of

:37:40.:37:46.

reverse rhetoric, that convinced a lot of people that he was honest.

:37:46.:37:51.

But eloquence, the meaning in the dictionary so to speak in way that

:37:51.:37:55.

affects the mind and moves the emotion, with force, fluency and

:37:55.:38:00.

appropriateness. "appropriateness" is the remarkable and hard thing

:38:00.:38:04.

that it is hard for politicians, speakers, not just politicians, but

:38:04.:38:07.

leaders of corporations, the manager in your shop to learn,

:38:07.:38:11.

unless you learn it through experience. Do you, as people very

:38:11.:38:15.

familiar with the text, when you hear politicians speaking, there

:38:15.:38:20.

was a clip of Michael Portillo there, there were a couple of other

:38:20.:38:24.

things. Do you detect the resonances of Shakespeare in the

:38:24.:38:29.

way our political leaders behave? Richard rightly said there, that

:38:29.:38:34.

often Henry V is quoted with a rather lazy reading of the play.

:38:34.:38:38.

The play itself is an incredibly brutal, shocking, violent piece of

:38:38.:38:44.

work. Examining the nature of warfare through the eyes of one man

:38:44.:38:54.
:38:54.:38:55.

as he experiences it. The Cripins Day speech on the morning of ago

:38:55.:39:01.

again court comes out of despair, he's on the brink, he has nothing

:39:01.:39:04.

left, the men are dying of starvation and dysentery, they are

:39:04.:39:09.

going to lose. It is an amazing piece of pragmatic genius, turning

:39:09.:39:13.

weaknesses into strength, we are out numbered, we happy few. And a

:39:14.:39:19.

second stroke of begin yu, to say "He who is with me will be my

:39:19.:39:23.

brother", the illusion you are democratically promoted by sharing

:39:23.:39:27.

your wounds with the king, that is total, political genius. Do you

:39:27.:39:33.

think the modern equivalent of that, is the demotic, that our

:39:33.:39:38.

politicians effect now? Alas it is. It is partly because Shakespeare

:39:38.:39:44.

had so many lives, he was a fantastic listener in the pub. It

:39:44.:39:51.

wasn't like an Eatonian chomping on a pasty for the sake of effect.

:39:51.:39:55.

Steadty of, we have one. I hold my hands up. He lived that Russian he

:39:55.:40:01.

had a voice for the gutter in a way -- he lived that, he had a voice

:40:01.:40:06.

for the gutter in a way, when deployed in the play it had

:40:06.:40:13.

credibility. I was only making faces. Making faces for fun? I'm an

:40:13.:40:18.

actor. I thought you wanted to speak. You wanted to say something.

:40:18.:40:22.

Only that Shakespeare had enormous empathy, compassion and wisdom,

:40:22.:40:27.

about not just the man of the gutter, but every man. That is why

:40:27.:40:31.

he's so extraordinary, he's able to think and feel himself into the

:40:31.:40:35.

hearts and minds of an entire people, so kings and queens are

:40:35.:40:43.

represented, seemingly truthfully, as are men of the gutter, Falstaff,

:40:43.:40:47.

and Mistress Quickly. On tomorrow's programme we will consider what

:40:47.:40:51.

Charles Dickens has to tell us about modern day Britain with the

:40:51.:40:55.

help of the Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams. What

:40:55.:41:01.

one of Shakespeare's least happy political role models, Macbeth,

:41:01.:41:05.

calls vaulting ambition is a prerequisite of power. The last

:41:06.:41:10.

time I asked Boris Johnson if he wanted David Cameron's old job, he

:41:10.:41:20.
:41:20.:41:24.

was all cripes andia radio, and he was warning off any moves towards

:41:24.:41:29.

another runway. But the Government seems to be tiptoeing back to the

:41:29.:41:32.

idea. He has been speaking to our political editor.

:41:32.:41:37.

It is a building made to be seen from the sky. But this site, the

:41:37.:41:42.

one from the air, is the one the current mayor believes too many

:41:42.:41:48.

people see. London's airport set up is all wrong, Boris Johnson thinks,

:41:48.:41:52.

too much traffic comes in over the city T he tells Newsnight he would

:41:52.:41:55.

move things east. If you land at Heathrow, you have to come in,

:41:55.:42:03.

because the wind is coming this way, you land like this. So you approach,

:42:03.:42:08.

your approach over west London there are two great walls, and they

:42:08.:42:12.

approach like that, and go in like that, there is an approach like

:42:12.:42:16.

that. There is a north and south stack. The map in the basement of

:42:16.:42:21.

City Hall proves rather useful. Where would a third runway go?

:42:21.:42:25.

would go, basically through here. Instead he wants a new Heathrow,

:42:25.:42:29.

double its size, in Kent. It is very nice that your idea is

:42:29.:42:35.

completely off the map. There is no votes to lose. There are fewer

:42:35.:42:40.

human beings. His idea, he believes, would see

:42:40.:42:47.

fewer people move home. But it is expensive. Look, I'm open to all

:42:47.:42:51.

solutions, I don't think you can avoid having, there has to be a

:42:51.:42:58.

fight now, and they have got to grasp the nettle. If we had a bit

:42:58.:43:02.

of get-up-and-go in this country we would be done in six years. That is

:43:02.:43:07.

how long it took in Singapore and Hong Kong. You just need...Doesn't

:43:07.:43:10.

The Prime Minister have get-up-and- go? Of course he does, of course he

:43:10.:43:14.

does. The Government is consulting on new airport capacity in the

:43:14.:43:18.

south-east, the problem for it, is it is ham strung by its own

:43:18.:43:21.

pronouncements in this area. They have ruled out in the coalition

:43:21.:43:24.

Government the expansion of a third runway at Heathrow. They have also

:43:24.:43:29.

ruled out more runways at Stanstead and GATT which, they are left

:43:29.:43:35.

looking at the -- Gatwick, they are left looking at a an idea that was

:43:35.:43:40.

seen as fantastical, Boris Island. It needs a stop-gap solution,

:43:40.:43:45.

looking at ideas once completely off the able. There is now a risk

:43:46.:43:53.

that the Government will tip toe behind the back -- -- the electric

:43:53.:43:57.

fence of the third runway. You can see ministers are testing the water,

:43:57.:44:02.

to mix my metaphors. Water and electricity not good? When they get

:44:02.:44:06.

to that electrified fence, they will have a most powerful shock. It

:44:06.:44:11.

is not deliverable, now, or in the future, the third runway is, as

:44:11.:44:17.

they say in Brussels, kadook, it is dead, over, move on. Is that your

:44:17.:44:21.

message to George Osborne? It is. But the coalition Government rules

:44:21.:44:25.

out another runway at Stanstead and Gatwick, you have ruled out a third

:44:25.:44:29.

runway, what is the solution? Though you have excluded some

:44:29.:44:33.

options there which I don't think are necessarily excluded. They are

:44:33.:44:37.

excluded in the coalition agreement? There are other options

:44:37.:44:41.

as well. Don't forget the -- forget the coalition has moved some way in

:44:41.:44:46.

the last couple of years. They began with the policy of no more

:44:46.:44:50.

runways anywhere ever in the south- east. That was not economically

:44:50.:44:54.

sustainable. This place used to be covered with docks and cranes and

:44:54.:44:59.

whatever, that all collapsed because capacity died. There was

:44:59.:45:02.

not enough capacity for the docks to accommodate the new containers

:45:02.:45:07.

that came. It all moved out to other ports, Felixstowe, Rotterdam,

:45:07.:45:12.

that kind of thing, London lost out. OK, we get it t what's his plan?

:45:12.:45:17.

London, the UK, would have a 24- hour hub airport. This is the key

:45:17.:45:21.

point, that would allow us to communicate with the big growth

:45:21.:45:26.

cities of the Far East, particularly, of Latin America.

:45:26.:45:30.

What your idea is this huge expansion of capacity, more than

:45:30.:45:33.

actually we need? I don't think. Familiar with these arguments?

:45:33.:45:40.

understand that point, but there again, don't forget we're only now

:45:40.:45:46.

upgrading the sewers that Basil Jet put in, he had the foresight to

:45:46.:45:49.

make them twice as big as he thought was going to be necessary.

:45:49.:45:54.

If you went up to the capacity that four runways would allow you, that

:45:54.:45:58.

would take you over the carbon emissions line that you are so keen

:45:58.:46:04.

to stay in? I'm not sure that is the case. I think you can have

:46:04.:46:07.

another 80 million passenger movements, without getting over our

:46:07.:46:12.

commitments under Kyoto. Grand plans may be, but they are not

:46:12.:46:16.

speedy plans? In reality you are looking at something like ten to 15

:46:16.:46:19.

years. That is with the planning laws as they stand, and the

:46:20.:46:23.

Government being a bit lackadaisical? I think that is with

:46:23.:46:26.

a certain amount of electroconvulsive shock therapy to

:46:26.:46:29.

the whole system. Without shock therapy, what does he think the

:46:29.:46:35.

Government will do? Let me explain what is happening, they are trying

:46:36.:46:39.

to long-grass it. The strategy is this is too difficult, it is

:46:39.:46:42.

difficult because they have to appease their environmentalists,

:46:42.:46:45.

ideolgical wing, some in the Tory Party, some in the Liberal

:46:45.:46:51.

Democrats, they want to keep every ball in the air until past 2015,

:46:51.:46:55.

that is the strategy, as I understand it. That is my hunch,

:46:55.:47:00.

OK? We find out whether the grass is long or short fairly soon. The

:47:00.:47:03.

Government publishes its airport strategy in the summer.

:47:03.:47:07.

That's it for now, I could tell you some more of what's in store

:47:07.:47:10.

tomorrow, actually I couldn't, any way, it would spoil the surprise.

:47:10.:47:15.

Here's what happened when the light projector artist of urban screen

:47:15.:47:22.

were let loose on the Sydney Opera House. Good night.

:47:22.:47:26.

# In the velvet darkness # Of the blackest night

:47:26.:47:35.

# Burning bright # There's a guiding star

:47:35.:47:45.
:47:45.:47:46.

# No matter what or who # Who you are

:47:46.:47:53.

# There's a light # Over at the breaking star

:47:53.:48:03.
:48:03.:48:09.

Good evening, the heat and humidity set off a few thunderstorms today,

:48:09.:48:12.

they are easing away across East Anglia. Most into the morning will

:48:12.:48:15.

be dry. More cloud across central eastern Scotland and the eastern

:48:15.:48:19.

coast of England. Some bright and sunny spells, ease lated showers

:48:19.:48:23.

burning through the day. Temperatures in the North West with

:48:23.:48:27.

sunny spells, down the eastern coastal counties, a good deal

:48:27.:48:32.

cooler, with the cloud coming and going all day. An isolated shower

:48:32.:48:35.

with a rumble of thunder. Most staying dry, fairly bright with

:48:36.:48:39.

sunshine, the vast majority of England and Wales. On the coast of

:48:39.:48:43.

Devon and Cornwall, around good parts of Wales. A risk of some

:48:43.:48:48.

misty sea fog, coming in on shore every now and then. Coming and

:48:48.:48:53.

going throughout the afternoon. Northern Ireland, dry and bright,

:48:53.:48:57.

Tony Blair goes to Leveson. The massacres in Syria. Heathrow and Boris. Tom Hiddleston, Simon Schama and Mark Rylance on Shakespeare. With Jeremy Paxman.


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