11/06/2012 Newsnight


11/06/2012

Spain gets a bailout. Will Greece want a new deal too? Plus Gordon Brown at Leveson, and the death of Glasgow's Red Road housing estate. With Jeremy Paxman.


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They may have saved some of the Spanish banks for the time being,

:00:12.:00:18.

but the euro is still far from safe. It will take 100 billion euros to

:00:18.:00:23.

save the Spanish banking system. What's left of it.

:00:23.:00:27.

How much longer can the European elite keep the whole thing afloat?

:00:27.:00:32.

Are some nations being asked to accept more austerity than others?

:00:32.:00:40.

The media magnate under oath. said, well, your company has made,

:00:40.:00:45.

declared war on my Government. the former Prime Minister under

:00:45.:00:48.

oath. This conversation never took place.

:00:48.:00:51.

We will ask who is the one with the memory problem?

:00:51.:00:56.

Then there is this. No half measure about Glasgow

:00:57.:01:01.

housing, everything's looking up. They were built as the solution to

:01:01.:01:07.

Glasgow's housing crisis and some people grew rather fond of them.

:01:07.:01:15.

# I'm a scraper # I'm a skyscraper way

:01:15.:01:24.

# I live on the 15th floor. Why, less than half a century later is

:01:24.:01:28.

this happening to them? First thing today, markets all over

:01:28.:01:31.

the world seemed to bounce a bit under the impression that the

:01:31.:01:34.

latest crisis in the eurozone might have been resolved. They snapped

:01:34.:01:38.

out of it as the day wore on, though. Meanwhile, the news that

:01:38.:01:43.

Spain is getting all the relief of a bail out, without any of the pain

:01:43.:01:46.

of austerity measure, hasn't gone down well with countries like

:01:46.:01:50.

Greece or Ireland, wir which were told you couldn't have one -- which

:01:50.:01:55.

were told you couldn't have one without the other. The eurozone

:01:55.:02:01.

mess is alive and well. Let's join our Economics Editor on his tour of

:02:01.:02:09.

ruined economies, tonight he's in Madrid.

:02:09.:02:13.

Resist, we are the fourth power of the eurozone, we are not Uganda.

:02:14.:02:18.

That is what the Finance Minister was texted, as they struggled over

:02:18.:02:22.

the terms of the bail out. They said they were powerful and if they

:02:22.:02:28.

don't give in, the whole thing will go down. The result, a 100 billion

:02:28.:02:37.

bail out, no conditions, and crisis over, a victory, blames Mr Rajoy.

:02:37.:02:42.

The markets reacted with no euphoria, the euro fell against the

:02:42.:02:48.

dollar, Spain's cost of borrowing rose. Some think "victory" is not

:02:48.:02:51.

the right word. There is a misnaming on the part of the

:02:51.:02:54.

Government. They have not called it a rescue but called it a credit

:02:54.:02:58.

line. We are not fully aware of what it entails. Clearly there is

:02:58.:03:02.

going to be some loss of sovereignty, of ability to make our

:03:02.:03:09.

own decisions. That is what happens when a country sin capable of

:03:09.:03:17.

bailing out its own banks. Under the seal -- deal, Europe will pump

:03:17.:03:21.

100 billion euro noose the banks through the bank bail out fund,

:03:21.:03:25.

some will be nationalised and some merged. The money will count as

:03:25.:03:30.

national debt for Spain, which is already rising steeply, and set to

:03:30.:03:38.

hit 90% of GDP this year. It is a clear thing that the euro area is

:03:38.:03:43.

willing and able to tackle the remaining challenges. In this

:03:43.:03:50.

context, Europe is standing by Spain and supporting Spain in order

:03:50.:03:56.

to restructure the banking sector. On the streets of Madrid today, to

:03:56.:03:59.

some it did not feel like a victory. These workers protesting against

:03:59.:04:04.

cuts in wages, and pensions. The absence of strict austerity

:04:04.:04:07.

conditions came only because Spain is already implementing tough and

:04:07.:04:15.

rapid cuts like these. TRANSLATION: We're civil servants,

:04:15.:04:19.

who work in the courts. A rescue pack aing was requested, but only

:04:19.:04:21.

for the banks -- package was requested, but only for the banks.

:04:21.:04:25.

They keep cutting our pay and increasing our hours.

:04:25.:04:28.

Banks have done nothing for this country, and now they are being

:04:28.:04:33.

rescued. I would like to retire with 14 million euros, the problem

:04:33.:04:36.

for Rajoy is he says the bail out is for Spain, but no-one believes.

:04:36.:04:41.

That The Spanish opposition party was

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doubtful this would be the last bail out Mr Rajoy negotiates.

:04:46.:04:52.

needs to comply with the fiscal target, that means cutting 2.5%

:04:52.:04:55.

from here to the end of the year. That is something that hasn't

:04:55.:04:59.

happened in a structural deficit in any country in the EOCD in the last

:04:59.:05:03.

20 years. It is very difficult. Even more so when the economy is

:05:03.:05:07.

depressed. There is no economic activity. If you don't have

:05:07.:05:10.

revenues you need expenditure, one after another. First, of course,

:05:10.:05:18.

tough raise VAT, then there is going to be, well -- you have to

:05:18.:05:22.

raise VAT, and then there will be cuts in unemployment and pensions

:05:22.:05:27.

if that is not enough. At the centre of the problems, Spain's

:05:27.:05:33.

local savings banks, the cajas, they lent too much in the boom, and

:05:33.:05:40.

went on lending to show the appearance of prosperity. The

:05:40.:05:46.

management hit the scale of the losses in cajas Madrid, before

:05:46.:05:51.

pleading for a 21 billion rescue deal last month. So anyone with a

:05:51.:05:55.

stick in the Spanish banking system, this soon will not feel very much

:05:55.:05:58.

like a victory. Many branches like this one will close, many workers

:05:58.:06:02.

will be sacked. Many shareholders will be penalised, and a lot of

:06:02.:06:07.

savers actually bought shares. Plus, I understand, plil on the stable is

:06:07.:06:13.

the option of penal -- still on the able is the option of penalising

:06:13.:06:16.

the banks through what is called a bail-in. The economy is shrinking,

:06:17.:06:20.

one in four adults has no job. The fear remains that global investor

:06:20.:06:25.

also pull their money out of Spain, if the strategic problem of the

:06:25.:06:34.

eurozone remains unsolved. Clearly the current eurodesign is

:06:34.:06:39.

not sustainable. We need euro 2.0 we need a guiding light to say what

:06:39.:06:44.

it will look like in the next two years. We are in for major reforms.

:06:44.:06:49.

Banking union is mandatory and urgent we. Need to start making

:06:49.:06:55.

some -- urgent. We need to make headway in fiscal union and

:06:55.:06:58.

federation, without that the euro is doomed. This was bail out like

:06:58.:07:03.

no other. The Finns and the Dutch and the Germans demanded tough

:07:03.:07:06.

conditions, more Austerty. But the rest of Europe said, -- austerity,

:07:07.:07:11.

but the rest of Europe said enough austerity. Don't ring the bells too

:07:11.:07:21.
:07:21.:07:23.

loud, but it might work. This strange event is the first time

:07:23.:07:30.

Europe has bailed its debts. It has doubt Spain time and space. We will

:07:30.:07:37.

find out how much when the Greeks vote on Sunday.

:07:37.:07:41.

Paul Mason is still in Madrid. Does this mean the crisis has been

:07:42.:07:46.

avoided? None of you listened to some of the contingency planning

:07:46.:07:51.

that is going on inside the EU. The Reuters news agency today released

:07:51.:07:55.

a leak of what it said was some of those plans. I will give you a list

:07:55.:07:59.

of the things that are being considered. Limits on how much

:07:59.:08:07.

people can withdraw from ATMs, physical patrols at borders to

:08:07.:08:15.

prevent cash flowing over them. The temporary suspension of the shen

:08:15.:08:22.

began agreement. This is the worst -- sheng began agreement. This is

:08:22.:08:27.

the worst case scenario. If this bail out in Spain and whatever

:08:27.:08:32.

happens in Greece does not stablise the situation. I get the sense that

:08:32.:08:35.

something pretty profound has changed within the eurozone, hasn't

:08:35.:08:44.

it? It It has, this battle between Germany trying to impose austerity

:08:45.:08:49.

and rules on the game, and then southern Europe, seen in many parts

:08:49.:08:54.

of the world as victims of the austerity drive. That battle has

:08:54.:08:59.

gone into a little black box, what are the terms of the Spanish bank

:08:59.:09:03.

bail out. The battle is fought about who gets punished and gets

:09:03.:09:07.

money taken away from them. In that battle, one sense is the balance

:09:07.:09:13.

has shifted, President Holiday, alongside Barroso, alongside back

:09:13.:09:16.

room players, people like Peter Mandelson from Britain, still very

:09:16.:09:19.

much central to the whole discussions, they are winning an

:09:19.:09:26.

argument. The argument is, austerity could kill certain

:09:26.:09:31.

countries F it drives them out of the euro, the seismic ness of the

:09:31.:09:37.

event is such that you would have to think of some of the things I

:09:37.:09:40.

listed -- seismicness of the event is such that you would have to

:09:40.:09:43.

think of some of the things I was talking about. What sort of

:09:43.:09:49.

timetable are we talking about? are looking now at next Sunday's

:09:49.:09:52.

Greek election. The polls there stop. It is illegal to do an

:09:52.:09:56.

opinion poll in Greece a certain time before the elections. We don't

:09:56.:10:01.

know how this is played out. It is pretty obvious, from the contacts I

:10:01.:10:05.

have in Greece, that it has strengthened the hand of the left

:10:05.:10:09.

in Greece. Who are saying, if you text each other, as Mr Rajoy did

:10:09.:10:13.

with his economics minister, saying look, we can push a button and

:10:13.:10:18.

destroy the whole thing, people tend to listen to you. We are all

:10:18.:10:22.

waiting to find out what poll that matters, and that is the one on

:10:22.:10:25.

Sunday. If the Greeks vote, and it is entirely possible, 50-50, for

:10:25.:10:29.

them to vote for a left Government. That Government does not want to

:10:29.:10:33.

leave the euro, but it will scrap the austerity plan and then it will

:10:33.:10:37.

be the ball in the court of Mrs Merkel.

:10:37.:10:43.

Thank you. Corbett is righthandman to the

:10:43.:10:48.

President of the European Council, Mitt Romney. He's in Brussels. Can

:10:48.:10:54.

you help us -- Mr Van Rompuy. What is this deal with Spain, is it a

:10:54.:11:00.

bail out or a rescue? It is a loan, from other eurozone countries to

:11:00.:11:04.

help Spain gain time to deal with its banking problem. Where did you

:11:04.:11:14.

find the money? It is from the European financial stablisation

:11:14.:11:18.

fund, which was set up a couple of years ago. It was a tool that

:11:19.:11:22.

didn't exist before this crisis. Now the European Union, or the

:11:22.:11:27.

eurozone, has set up this fund, through which it can lend money to

:11:27.:11:30.

countries that need money to gain time. It is a loan, it is not a

:11:30.:11:35.

gift, it is not grant, it has to be paid back in due course. It gives

:11:35.:11:40.

the countries time to turn the situation around. This money comes

:11:40.:11:44.

from other members of the eurozone? The other members of the eurozone

:11:44.:11:50.

back the fund. They are guarantors for it. It is not that tax-payers

:11:50.:11:54.

in other countries are giving money away, they are guarantors for the

:11:54.:11:58.

loans, loans which will, of course, in due course, have to be paid back.

:11:58.:12:02.

It is possible, presumably, that one of the people backing the loan

:12:02.:12:11.

is Spain herself? Yes, all the eurozone countries contribute to it.

:12:11.:12:16.

So Spain is lending herself money? Just as Britain does with the IMF.

:12:16.:12:19.

Like many countries across the world we contribute to the IMF. It

:12:19.:12:24.

is not unknown, hissor clear, For us to borrow from the I --

:12:24.:12:28.

historically for us to borrow from the IMF. But Spain is one of the

:12:28.:12:31.

countries lending money to Spain? Spain is one of the countries

:12:31.:12:35.

backing the fund, which in this case shrending money back to Spain,

:12:35.:12:39.

as happens -- is lending money back to Spain, as happens in all such

:12:39.:12:43.

cases. Can you help us what with what the Spaniards have to do to

:12:43.:12:48.

justify this loan, do they have to impose austerity measures? Spain

:12:48.:12:55.

has already undertaken a lot of measures to get rid of its deficit.

:12:55.:13:00.

Remember Spain's overall debt levels are not nearly as high as

:13:00.:13:04.

Greece or some other countries. Spain went into this crisis with

:13:04.:13:09.

lower public debt than Germany, even. So it has a certain margin of

:13:09.:13:12.

manoeuvre. The problem here, is with the banking sector in Spain,

:13:12.:13:16.

which, a part of which has gone belly-up. Just as happened a couple

:13:16.:13:22.

of years ago in Ireland. The state has had to bail out the banking

:13:22.:13:28.

sector, to help them also gain time to recapitalise. That is what is

:13:28.:13:32.

happening here. It is a very different case from that of Greece.

:13:32.:13:35.

So the Spanish Government won't be required to cut Government spending

:13:35.:13:42.

in order to justify this loan? Governments are normally required

:13:43.:13:47.

do is cut their deaf sirbgts how they do, that cutting spending --

:13:47.:13:50.

deficit. How they do that is cutting taxes and raising spending.

:13:51.:13:54.

They are sovereign Governments, that is up to them. But Spain,

:13:54.:13:58.

let's not forget, that is already taken measures to bring their

:13:58.:14:01.

deficit level down. Their accumulated debt level over the

:14:01.:14:04.

years much lower than other countries, but their deficit in

:14:04.:14:08.

recent years shot up. And they are gradually bringing that down over

:14:08.:14:15.

the next two or three years, as planned.

:14:15.:14:20.

When they have to repay this money, who gets priority? Those are the

:14:20.:14:24.

details that will now be negotiated as the small print of this deal is

:14:24.:14:34.
:14:34.:14:35.

put together. You have no views on who gets priority? I haven't looked

:14:36.:14:42.

into that aspect myself. whether the EU ought to get

:14:42.:14:45.

priority over bondholders? That is subject to the negotiations of the

:14:45.:14:48.

small print of the deal. The key thing is the principle of the deal

:14:48.:14:53.

has been agreed. Very quickly the new mechanism is working. The money

:14:53.:14:57.

is there to lend when needed to a country that needs it. To help give

:14:57.:15:01.

them time to turn the corner. The details still need to be looked at.

:15:01.:15:07.

When the Greeks or the Irish or anybody, whose Governments have had

:15:07.:15:09.

to impose austerity measures in order to get money from Europe,

:15:09.:15:17.

when they look and say Why do they not have to do what we have to do,

:15:17.:15:22.

will they be entitled to renegotiate their loans? Each loan

:15:22.:15:26.

is tailored to the particular problem of the country concerned.

:15:26.:15:31.

As I said earlier, in Spain it is not an overall problem of

:15:31.:15:34.

accumulated public debt. It is a problem of their banking sector

:15:34.:15:37.

that needs helping out and bailing out for a certain period of time.

:15:37.:15:42.

It is quite different from some of the other countries that have

:15:42.:15:46.

received loans. You can't come back and renegotiate? In all case, you

:15:46.:15:50.

refer to austerity being imposed by the European Union, supposedly.

:15:50.:15:54.

Imagine for one moment that these loans were not being given to the

:15:54.:15:58.

countries concerned. Then they would be facing far worse austerity,

:15:58.:16:01.

much more difficult to turn the situation around. The loans give

:16:01.:16:09.

them time to put their house in order, or over a longer period of

:16:09.:16:12.

time with less difficulty than there would otherwise be.

:16:12.:16:16.

The same consideration, of course, applies to Spain, doesn't it?

:16:16.:16:20.

course, yes. To anyone. And not just countries within the your Roy

:16:20.:16:27.

zone. You never -- eurozone. You never hear much about the countries

:16:27.:16:32.

outside the eurozone, Romania, Turkey, who have had loans from the

:16:32.:16:36.

IMF. It is not necessarily to do with being in the euro, or a crisis

:16:36.:16:42.

of the euro as such. Some countries in the eurozone and outside, have

:16:42.:16:46.

problems of deficits and debts. They are being helped with loans.

:16:46.:16:51.

Reuters was reporting earlier today that there have been contingency

:16:51.:16:56.

plans drawn up over there. For what will happen if Greece does tumble

:16:56.:17:02.

out of the euro. These apparently include the suspension of the

:17:02.:17:08.

shengian agreement, limits on the amount of money withdrawn from the

:17:08.:17:12.

cash machines and similar emergency measures. Have such measures been

:17:12.:17:18.

drawn up? We are not planning for a Greek exit from the country, that

:17:18.:17:23.

would make a bad situation worse. The question of whether there are

:17:23.:17:28.

certain consingcy scenarios being looked -- contingency scenarios

:17:28.:17:32.

being looked into by different Government, I would imagine there

:17:32.:17:35.

are. That is different from planning for it to happen or hoping

:17:35.:17:43.

it will happen. The firm view is an actual exit of Greece from the

:17:44.:17:48.

eurozone would compound bad situation and make it worse.

:17:48.:17:54.

More bad memories are on display at the Leveson Inquiry of the

:17:54.:17:58.

relationship between press and politicians. Everyone there

:17:58.:18:03.

testifys under oath, and the former Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, had a

:18:03.:18:07.

very different version of events than the Murdochs. The political

:18:08.:18:10.

class of this country keep asserting that the public doesn't

:18:10.:18:17.

really give a toss about the relationship. David Grossman does.

:18:17.:18:21.

This inquiry has heard from many who say they were victims of the

:18:21.:18:26.

press. Today it heard from another. Gordon Brown says it was his

:18:26.:18:29.

determination to frustrate news corporation's commercial ambitions

:18:29.:18:33.

that turned them against him. To the advantage of the Conservatives,

:18:33.:18:38.

who he says were only too willing to get cosy. There was a red line

:18:38.:18:42.

in everything I ever did, there was a line in the sand across which I

:18:43.:18:50.

could never cross. If there was any question a vested from interest was

:18:50.:18:52.

trying to promote something that was against the public interest, I

:18:52.:18:57.

could have nothing to do with that. I think you can serve up dinner,

:18:57.:19:03.

but you don't need to serve up BSkyB as part of the dinner.

:19:03.:19:07.

Brown was asked about a story that ran on the front page of the Sun

:19:07.:19:13.

newspaper, on November 2006. It was to do with the health of his then

:19:13.:19:17.

four-month-old son. Previously News International has said it received

:19:17.:19:24.

explicit permission from the Browns to run the story. Today, Mr Brown

:19:24.:19:28.

flatly contradicted them. I ask you if any mother or father was

:19:29.:19:33.

presented with a choice as to whether a four-month-old son's

:19:33.:19:37.

medical condition, your child's medical condition, should be

:19:37.:19:40.

broadcast on the front page of a tabloid newspaper, and you had a

:19:40.:19:44.

choice in this matter, I don't think there is any parent in the

:19:44.:19:48.

land would have made the choice that we are told we made, to give

:19:48.:19:52.

explicit permission for that to happen.

:19:52.:19:56.

Let's remember what Rebekah Brooks has previously told the inquiry.

:19:56.:20:01.

She was the editor of the Sun at the time the story ran. Did you

:20:01.:20:04.

have the express agreement of the Brown, freely given, to publish

:20:04.:20:09.

this story about their son? Absolutely. If the Browns had asked

:20:09.:20:13.

me not to run it, I wouldn't have done. Why did your wife in

:20:13.:20:17.

particular remain good friends with Mrs Brookes, to the extent of

:20:17.:20:22.

arranging a 40th birthday party in Chequers for her in June 2008,

:20:22.:20:27.

attending her birthday party in 2008, and Mrs Brookes we had

:20:27.:20:32.

anything June 200, if what you say is correct? -- 2009, if what you

:20:32.:20:37.

say is correct? Sarah is one of the most forgiving people I know, she

:20:37.:20:42.

finds the good in everyone. versions of events there, two

:20:42.:20:45.

versions of a phonecall that perhaps happened or didn't happen

:20:45.:20:50.

in the autumn of 2009. In it, Gordon Brown told Rupert Murdoch

:20:51.:20:54.

that he was declaring war on the Murdoch empire. Or, perhaps he said

:20:54.:20:59.

no such thing. Here's what Rupert Murdoch

:20:59.:21:05.

previously told the inquiry that Mr Brown had said. Your company has

:21:05.:21:11.

made, declared war on my Government. And we had no alternative but to

:21:11.:21:16.

make war on your company. How could Mr Brown have declared war on your

:21:16.:21:21.

company? I don't know, I don't think he was in a very balanced

:21:21.:21:27.

state of mind. And here, is what Mr Brown told the inquiry today.

:21:27.:21:31.

conversation never took place. I'm shocked and surprised that it

:21:31.:21:35.

should be suggested, even when there is no evidence of such a

:21:35.:21:39.

conversation that it should have happened, but there was no such

:21:39.:21:42.

conversation. And the contradictions didn't end there. If

:21:42.:21:46.

you look back at the press cuttings, or indeed, thumb through any one of

:21:46.:21:50.

a number of biographies and autobiographies of the Blair years,

:21:50.:21:55.

you would have thought that whilst at the Treasury, Gordon Brown ran a

:21:55.:21:58.

merciless political briefing operation. Designed, not only to

:21:58.:22:03.

dispatch Tony Blair, sooner than he wanted to go, but also make sure

:22:03.:22:07.

no-one else but Gordon Brown stepped into Number Ten in his

:22:07.:22:16.

place. Today, we learned that was not what happened at all. Were your

:22:16.:22:20.

aides involved in using the media to attempt to force Mr Blair's

:22:20.:22:23.

resignation, this was in 2006? would hope not. Were they involved?

:22:23.:22:29.

I would hope not. I have no evidence of that.

:22:29.:22:34.

Did you authorise your aides to brief against Mr Blair? No. Do you

:22:34.:22:37.

think they may have done so without your explicit approval, even with

:22:37.:22:41.

your knowledge? If they did so, it was without my authorisation.

:22:41.:22:46.

Next up was the Chancellor, George Osborne. He told the inquiry that

:22:46.:22:52.

at the time he had no view on the BSkyB News Corp bid and he

:22:53.:22:56.

dismissed the idea that there was some sort of grand conspiracy,

:22:56.:22:59.

where the Conservatives gave Rupert Murdoch their support for the bid

:22:59.:23:04.

in return for the Sun's endorsement. It is complete nonsense. The facts

:23:04.:23:08.

simply don't bear it out. We had no idea that they wanted to bid for

:23:08.:23:11.

Sky before the general election. When the general election had

:23:11.:23:16.

happened, Dr Vince Cable, a Lib Dem, is put in charge. And you have to

:23:17.:23:23.

be a real fantasist to believe that come these events we knowingly

:23:24.:23:27.

allowed Vince Cable to be secretly recorded. We knowingly allow the

:23:27.:23:30.

Telegraph not to publish information. That information

:23:30.:23:34.

emerges in the middle of the afternoon. We then, all as part of

:23:34.:23:38.

this cunning plan, put Mr Hunt in charge. Mr Osborne too was asked

:23:38.:23:42.

about the appointment of Andy Coulson as Downing Street's

:23:42.:23:48.

Director of Communications. I have seen people suggest that the reason

:23:48.:23:52.

we hired him was because of his connections with the Murdochs or

:23:52.:23:56.

Rebekah Brooks, or his knowledge of the internal workings of News

:23:56.:23:58.

International, that was not a consideration. Over the next three

:23:58.:24:03.

days we will be hearing from more senior political figure,

:24:03.:24:06.

culminating in the Prime Minister himself on Thursday.

:24:06.:24:11.

Let as discuss now with Phil Hall, a former editor of the News of the

:24:11.:24:14.

World, the Conservative MP, Louise Mensch, and Steve Richards of the

:24:14.:24:18.

Independent, who also produced a documentary series for the BBC on

:24:18.:24:21.

Gordon Brown's time as Prime Minister. We did ask countless

:24:21.:24:25.

former associates of Mr Brown to comment on his testimony, but most

:24:25.:24:30.

appeared more inclined to run repeatedly into an electric fence.

:24:30.:24:35.

Now, Louise Mensch, there are so many contradictory versions here,

:24:35.:24:40.

they can't all these people be telling the truth? No they can't.

:24:40.:24:45.

They absolutely can't. Who do you believe? In the matter of Gordon

:24:45.:24:49.

Brown's child, I believe Gordon Brown, and I think it is a complete

:24:49.:24:52.

red herring whether permission was given or not, because the privacy

:24:52.:24:57.

of a young child was grossly invaded. In the matter of this call

:24:57.:25:02.

with Mr Murdoch, I believe Rupert Murdoch, if only because Gordon

:25:02.:25:05.

Brown's testimony that he never briefed against Tony Blair ever,

:25:05.:25:09.

and didn't authorise his aides to do it was so lacking in credibility

:25:09.:25:12.

that it undermined everything else he said. If you looked on social

:25:12.:25:15.

media today, the reactions of the whole political lobby in

:25:15.:25:20.

Westminster, left and right, from every single paper, poured scorn on

:25:20.:25:25.

this. Did you believe Gordon Brown today? In relation to the specific,

:25:25.:25:28.

I don't know. I have no idea whether he said this to Rupert

:25:28.:25:31.

Murdoch, I have no idea what happened there. I don't think it

:25:31.:25:34.

matters very much. Do you have an idea about whether he briefed or

:25:34.:25:37.

his people briefed against Tony Blair? What I know is he was

:25:37.:25:44.

obsessed with the media, and he was being utterly disengineous to

:25:44.:25:49.

declare a sort of indifference to the media. When he said he wasn't

:25:49.:25:53.

reading papers? He read every paper, someone told me he used to read, as

:25:53.:26:00.

Prime Minister, the papers at 5.00am, by 5.30am he was incredibly

:26:00.:26:04.

depressed. But someone did say you are the only person who reads all

:26:04.:26:08.

the papers, so that is a distorted view of how you are perceived. What

:26:08.:26:12.

he should have said is I'm obsessed by the media, and totally justified

:26:12.:26:17.

in being so, because they remain a powerful shaper of opinion. I think

:26:17.:26:22.

if George Osborne and others...He Didn't say? He undermined the

:26:22.:26:27.

validity of an argument about the power of a media by affecting an

:26:27.:26:32.

indifference to it. Hall, did you believe what he had to say? Not --

:26:32.:26:37.

Phil Hall, did you believe what had he to say? Not a word. There was an

:26:37.:26:40.

interesting clip there, Rebekah Brooks said she didn't have any

:26:40.:26:46.

permission from the Brown, she said if they asked me not to run it, I

:26:46.:26:49.

wouldn't V I think she went to him, and they are very close, the heart

:26:49.:26:53.

of the Leveson thing is how close were leading politicians and the

:26:53.:26:59.

Prime Minister to rooxrooxroox and News International -- Rebekah

:26:59.:27:07.

Brooks, and and News International. I would imagine they went and said

:27:07.:27:10.

they are going to run it and the Browns were afraid.

:27:10.:27:14.

If they had gone to the press commission it wouldn't have money,

:27:14.:27:20.

Tony Blair used it on several occasions. Would you have run it?

:27:20.:27:23.

No, the Press Complaints Commission, I use it now all the time, if you

:27:23.:27:26.

overstep the mark, newspapers won't run the story. I don't see how that

:27:26.:27:30.

has anything to do with it. The privacy of the child was invaded, I

:27:30.:27:33.

don't know that permission could rightly have been given to

:27:33.:27:36.

undermine the privacy of that child's health which will follow

:27:36.:27:40.

him for the rest of his life. journalist has the right to ask a

:27:40.:27:45.

parent if they can run the story. four-month-old baby. He was

:27:45.:27:50.

appallingly treated? The parent has a right to say no and stop the

:27:50.:27:54.

story. I can tell you, 30 years of this, I know many parents who bring

:27:54.:27:57.

these issues to the public, and talk about them to highlight the

:27:57.:28:01.

issues around treatment of children, the media ka and if sillties

:28:01.:28:08.

available to them -- medical facilities available to them.

:28:08.:28:13.

was right to raise the bizarre tax on Afghanistan. The Sun could have

:28:13.:28:17.

gone for them on a few issues, and weirdly, Rebekah Brooks said that

:28:17.:28:21.

was the reason they decided to switch sides. He was obsessed about

:28:21.:28:24.

dealing with Afghanistan, partly actually, to reassure the Murdoch

:28:24.:28:27.

newspaper that is he could deal with this in the same way that Tony

:28:27.:28:34.

Blair did. He was right to say that some of the focus on him in

:28:34.:28:40.

relation to, that and his personal integrity on that was utterly

:28:40.:28:47.

unfair. It was pointed out by Robert Jay, that he had an absolute

:28:47.:28:52.

disgust with Rebekah Brooks, he went to a 40th birthday party and a

:28:52.:28:58.

wedding and his wife joined a bizarre pyjama party. That is a

:28:59.:29:03.

valid point about, I put "they", because he wasn't the only one.

:29:03.:29:06.

They were frightened of the power of people like her, Rebekah Brooks.

:29:06.:29:10.

They did everything they possibly could to keep her, or get her on

:29:10.:29:15.

side. I'm not sure it was just being frightened. I remember Rupert

:29:15.:29:18.

Murdoch at the select committee testifying clearly that the Prime

:29:18.:29:21.

Minister he was closest to was Gordon Brown. The person he felt he

:29:21.:29:25.

had most in common w and the strongest friendship he formed with

:29:25.:29:30.

recent Prime Ministers. The great contrast was with the way George

:29:30.:29:34.

Osborne appeared today. A much more polished performance in the opinion

:29:34.:29:42.

of many observers, and yet very revealing of a kind of inner moral

:29:42.:29:49.

vacuousness, surely, on the the question of the Murdoch role in

:29:49.:29:53.

BSkyB. The only consideration apparently was holding the

:29:53.:29:55.

coalition together. That is a serious consideration. You have to

:29:55.:29:59.

take it on value, as George said, the facts, the deal was given to

:29:59.:30:06.

Vince Cable. I don't think the most far fetched News Corporation

:30:06.:30:09.

conspiracy therapists, could think that giving it to Vince Cable would

:30:09.:30:12.

advance Rupert Murdoch's interests. You believe that the Chancellor of

:30:12.:30:18.

the country has no view on the ownership of BSkyB? He gave his

:30:18.:30:21.

view today, it was an honest one. He said it was an inconvenience, it

:30:21.:30:26.

may be code for something we can't repeat on the BBC. As he rightly

:30:26.:30:29.

said, he knew he would get into trouble with one set of media

:30:29.:30:32.

groups or the other. If you please News Corporation, you displease the

:30:32.:30:37.

BBC, the Telegraph, the Mail, the other media companies, the

:30:37.:30:43.

Independent, who didn't want to see News Corp take over. It was a

:30:43.:30:46.

political performance and he came out of it well. He treated it as a

:30:46.:30:49.

conversation and followed the arguments. The arguments were

:30:49.:30:53.

pretty valid. They have all got a strong argument. I think Cameron

:30:53.:30:57.

will have an easy day on Thursday, when, basically they say, of course

:30:57.:31:03.

we want to get a better press, we had our ideas that we wanted to be

:31:03.:31:07.

put out in the most benevolent climate ever. I don't blame them

:31:07.:31:10.

trying to do. That that is in relation to the Andy Coulson

:31:11.:31:14.

appointment, part of his interrogation today. On BSkyB I

:31:14.:31:17.

never believed the idea they did a deal before the election. It would

:31:17.:31:21.

have been absurd, he explained very clearly why that was the case.

:31:21.:31:25.

There remains the murky area of the switch from Vince Cable to Jeremy

:31:25.:31:29.

Hunt, which I think still remains murky and there are questions to be

:31:29.:31:33.

answered. He suggested that was Jeremy Heywood's idea? I don't

:31:33.:31:39.

think he will appear actively culpable. He was delighted, because

:31:39.:31:43.

we have seen the texts. In the Leveson evidence, the texts and e-

:31:43.:31:47.

mails are more revealing than the one-to-one interrogation. He didn't

:31:47.:31:51.

appear to think that Cable had done anything wrong, it was merely a

:31:51.:31:54.

question of balance within the coalition? He wanted to make sure

:31:54.:31:58.

that Vince Cable remained part of the cabinet. I think he dealt with

:31:58.:32:01.

that in quite a sensible way, which is to be open about it. He didn't

:32:01.:32:06.

want a crisis in the coalition by Vince Cable leaving, that was an

:32:06.:32:10.

honest and wise answer. What did you make of George Osborne's pitch

:32:10.:32:15.

today? I thought he was very comfortable in his own skin. I

:32:15.:32:19.

think because his involvement was fairly narrow, yes he had a

:32:19.:32:22.

conversation with Coulson at the very beginning. In the end the

:32:22.:32:25.

decisions were made by the Prime Minister. I don't agree, I don't

:32:25.:32:31.

think he will get an easy ride. David Cameron? I think he will have

:32:31.:32:35.

to explain his relationship with Rebekah Brooks and whether he was

:32:35.:32:42.

right to send mess js with "lol" in them. He is a smooth operate to I'm

:32:42.:32:47.

sure he will handle it well, but I think he will get a rough ride.

:32:47.:32:52.

They were friends, that is what he will say. I gave George Osborne

:32:52.:32:56.

lots of brownie points when asked if he was a friend of Andy Coulson,

:32:56.:33:00.

he said yes he was and still will be a friend of Andy Coulson but he

:33:00.:33:04.

hasn't been able to speak to him for a year. People appreciate that

:33:04.:33:10.

honesty. There was stark contrast and noticable today approaching

:33:10.:33:13.

various people who were very close to Gordon Brown. Not one of them

:33:13.:33:17.

wanted to come out and talk. This was a man who was Prime Minister

:33:17.:33:20.

only a couple of years ago. What has happened? A lot of the people

:33:21.:33:24.

who went through the trauma of the Premiership, and the build-up to

:33:24.:33:28.

the Premiership, with the whole Blair-Brown rivalry, are simply

:33:28.:33:33.

still getting through it all. There is no doubt there have been many

:33:33.:33:37.

fallings out. The problem he had to today in relation to that, was if

:33:37.:33:41.

he had started saying, yes, there were briefings, yes, Tony Blair and

:33:41.:33:45.

I were falling out all over the place. Someone as obsessed about

:33:45.:33:49.

the headlines as he is, would know that would have been the headlines

:33:49.:33:53.

for tomorrow. He wanted the headlines to be about News

:33:53.:33:57.

International. But not surprisingly, therefore, you don't get many

:33:57.:34:00.

people coming out to depend. That I think that was what was happening

:34:00.:34:06.

today. A piece of modern social engineering has come to a dramatic

:34:06.:34:11.

end. The Red Road housing estate in Glasgow was designed as part of the

:34:11.:34:15.

solution to that city's problems of overcrowding of slums and tenement.

:34:15.:34:21.

A big, bright, futuristic answer to a generations old problem. In the

:34:21.:34:25.

1960s, the new tower blocks were the solution to poor housing.

:34:25.:34:29.

Within decades they were the problem of poor housing, and

:34:29.:34:33.

yesterday they succumb today high explosive. Catrin Nye reflects on

:34:33.:34:43.
:34:43.:34:46.

how you -- utopia became distopia. Red Road, for more than 40ies these

:34:46.:34:50.

vast imposing structures have loomed -- 40 years these vast

:34:50.:34:53.

imposing structures have loomed over Glasgow. They were homes, the

:34:53.:34:57.

solution to a post-war housing crisis they will be mourned as

:34:57.:35:07.

something greater. You are part of something big and grand. Look at

:35:07.:35:10.

the size of these. This will all disappear from the face of the

:35:10.:35:20.
:35:20.:35:21.

earth. Weather through years of neglect, -- whether through years

:35:21.:35:25.

of neglect, loathed as they were loved. A big dumping ground, big

:35:25.:35:29.

grey stones. But to their very end, they have provided the sanctuary

:35:29.:35:34.

for which they were created. man is 60 years old, he labours on

:35:34.:35:40.

usual all the buildings, is there to the last in 1969. He builds the

:35:40.:35:47.

concrete castle for the paths to go from building to building. Sleek,

:35:47.:35:52.

space age, mammoth, Rid Road says his mother, Red Road, houses for

:35:52.:35:57.

thousands. There aren't many blocks of flats

:35:57.:36:03.

that can claim a novel, a film, and countless artworks dedicated to

:36:03.:36:06.

their memory. But Red Road was always some what unique. The

:36:07.:36:10.

initial plans for these buildings were fairly modest. By the time

:36:10.:36:15.

they were completed in 1969, they had become something of an

:36:15.:36:19.

architectural experiment. The highest tower blocks in kwhruep,

:36:19.:36:26.

home to almost 5 -- Europe. Home to almost 5,000 people. For each of

:36:26.:36:35.

the residents, an entirely different new way of living.

:36:35.:36:39.

# My heart's on fire # Elvira

:36:39.:36:44.

These were the very first of those residents, and they have stuck with

:36:44.:36:53.

Red Road until the very end. Jean McGeough moved in on day one,

:36:53.:36:58.

she picked a ticket at random, and on it was her flat number and floor.

:36:58.:37:07.

They got offered in St Peter's drive, we walked from there --

:37:07.:37:11.

Petershill Drive, we walked up from there, we thought they would be

:37:11.:37:14.

left. And they said look at the crowds. People were out taking

:37:14.:37:21.

pictures and doing this and that. I went, oh my goodness. They went

:37:21.:37:26.

are you going to be a tenant? I said I hoped so. I had my neighbour

:37:26.:37:33.

with me, I said you pick. She said no, pick it yourself. So I picked 9,

:37:33.:37:37.

so I'm quite happy I got it and I was happy. I'm very happy there.

:37:37.:37:43.

Very, very, very happy. No half measures about Glasgow

:37:43.:37:48.

housing, everything's looking up at the development. Red Road came in

:37:48.:37:54.

the latter part of the boom years for high rise. 4,500 people will

:37:54.:37:59.

have a pilot's eye view of the great city, and enjoy it in modern

:37:59.:38:03.

comfort. Immediately post Second World War, Glasgow was faced with

:38:03.:38:13.
:38:13.:38:13.

an acute housing shortage problem. Some Soviet delegates studying

:38:14.:38:18.

rehouse pring in the party. flats created the ultimate in

:38:18.:38:21.

communal living, a project on the scale you wouldn't see today.

:38:22.:38:31.
:38:32.:38:41.

cost, so far, more than �6 million. Look at the housing, they are

:38:41.:38:45.

amazing, on a formal level, they will never exist in the world again.

:38:45.:38:49.

The sheer size of the buildings is symbolic of the post-war social

:38:49.:38:54.

consensus. The idea that what you had in Glasgow, was these

:38:54.:38:57.

overcrowded inner city tenements, and there was the idea that people

:38:57.:39:00.

were going to get better housing and move out. They were going to

:39:00.:39:04.

get this light, this modernist ideal of light and fresh air, and

:39:04.:39:08.

so forth. But there was still the idea, of course, of the social, the

:39:08.:39:11.

community. That is what you have here. You have 5,000 people, but it

:39:11.:39:14.

is a community that is here. It might be created artificially. But

:39:14.:39:19.

that is essentially what the welfare state was. The recreation

:39:19.:39:24.

of communities from these delap dated and poverty-striken

:39:24.:39:33.

communities that we find in the earlyly to mid-20th century.

:39:33.:39:41.

Road had purpose built pubs and shobs and even an underground bingo

:39:41.:39:46.

hall. It was a golden period, all the problems with high rise mere

:39:46.:39:50.

quirks of life. The shift to this way of living was so significant

:39:50.:39:57.

for Glasgow, it earned a place in the city's folk history.

:39:57.:40:02.

# I'm a skyscraper # I live on the 19th floor

:40:02.:40:08.

# But I'm not gonna play You can see it in the culture,

:40:08.:40:13.

there is the idea that the culture of kids coming home from school, in

:40:13.:40:16.

the old tenement areas, their mother would throw them out a

:40:16.:40:21.

sandwich, a piece, they call it, from first, second, third, fourth

:40:21.:40:25.

floor, there is a song about that saying you can't fling pieces out

:40:25.:40:31.

of a 20 storey flat. Your mother won't throw a story down 8 floors

:40:31.:40:36.

to you. One of the pigeons or -- 28 floors. One of the pigeon also get

:40:36.:40:43.

it before you do. # The odds against reaching it

:40:43.:40:50.

# Are 99-1 From that initial wave of hope, soon came a far more harsh

:40:51.:40:55.

reality for Red Road. The high rise towers became symbols of poverty

:40:55.:40:58.

and alienation. The very problems from which they were designed to

:40:58.:41:08.
:41:08.:41:14.

Like many of the first residents, Jeanne moved out of Red Road, and

:41:14.:41:21.

by the time, as Alan Peter lived there in the late 1980, it had a

:41:21.:41:29.

very different kind of community. No longer a desirable place, they

:41:29.:41:34.

were housing those with nowhere to go. As Alan's neighbours robbed for

:41:34.:41:38.

a living, people weren't taking it in turns to clean the hallways any

:41:38.:41:44.

more. Black cab dropped us off at the back of the building, when you

:41:44.:41:49.

get out and you see this big huge monster building. You were like is

:41:49.:41:54.

this it, and the entrance is around the front.

:41:54.:42:00.

Two residents beforehand, who stayed there before me, had both

:42:00.:42:06.

jumped out the kitchen wind development was it a QikSave. When

:42:06.:42:11.

you look out of the kitchen window you could see where they landed.

:42:11.:42:17.

the late 1980s there was a lot of unemployment. Hair win was coming

:42:17.:42:21.

back in. It was rough. -- Heroin was coming back in. It was rough,

:42:21.:42:24.

there was a lot of unemployment, they were closing down the

:42:24.:42:30.

shipyards as well. There was no no jobs about. Crime

:42:30.:42:34.

seemed to be the easiest way to pay for things. If you were a single

:42:34.:42:38.

guy and you put your name down for flat, you would get shoved here.

:42:38.:42:48.
:42:48.:43:00.

That is just the way it is. It was In the early 1970s, there would be

:43:00.:43:03.

queues for the lifts in the morning for men going to work, in the

:43:03.:43:07.

shipyards. But coming into the 1980s, there was no problem getting

:43:07.:43:11.

a lift in the morning to go to work. There was the idea of despair, the

:43:12.:43:16.

idea that things were coming to an end, there was no future in places

:43:16.:43:24.

like this. We get this problem word, residualisation, which really

:43:24.:43:34.
:43:34.:43:41.

This could have been the end of the story for Red Road. There is

:43:41.:43:44.

another, final chapter, created as much by international developments,

:43:44.:43:50.

as those locally. The flats became a home for asylum

:43:50.:43:56.

seekers, initially those fleeing Kosovo, but residents from as many

:43:56.:44:03.

troubled countries as you can name. Congalese, Libyan, huge numbers of

:44:03.:44:08.

Chinese, fleeing politicians. There are more horror stories, family of

:44:08.:44:14.

Russians jumped to their deaths from the flats in 2010.

:44:14.:44:18.

For some, though, Red Road has echoed its original purpose, a

:44:18.:44:26.

place that inspires awe, that creates communities.

:44:26.:44:30.

This man arrived in 2007 from Pakistan. What did your family

:44:30.:44:36.

think of their new home? It is just like what you see in the aeroplane.

:44:36.:44:42.

You just see down. You think that you are just in the aeroplane. We

:44:42.:44:48.

can see all the city of Glasgow from our flat. If we go to the

:44:48.:44:52.

kitchen there is a view of mountains, if we come to the living

:44:52.:44:58.

room there is a view of the whole city. The families were just

:44:58.:45:04.

together. My younger daughter was born here. She was born in the Red

:45:04.:45:08.

Road flats. You have a Red Road baby? Yeah.

:45:08.:45:15.

We have a Red Road baby. And so on, and so on, and so on.

:45:15.:45:21.

Till the tenants were gone and the buildings only steel and girders

:45:21.:45:31.
:45:31.:45:45.

That report was from Catrin Nye. And tomorrow morning's front pages

:45:45.:45:49.

now. The Financial Times has news that Jose Manuel Barroso of the

:45:49.:45:54.

European Commission would like to see all European banks, right

:45:54.:45:58.

across the European Union regulated by the same superviser. The

:45:58.:46:01.

Independent has pictures of the England football team who managed a

:46:01.:46:05.

1-1 draw with France this evening. Doctors face a ban on denying

:46:05.:46:15.
:46:15.:46:33.

treatment to the elderly. According That's it for tonight. Parting is

:46:33.:46:43.
:46:43.:47:08.

The rain will ease a little bit overnight across southern counties,

:47:08.:47:13.

it won't be as intense as over the last 24 hours. Still there in the

:47:13.:47:16.

morning. Heavy showers once again developing across Wales, south-west

:47:16.:47:19.

England and Northern Ireland. Much of northern England will be dry

:47:19.:47:23.

with brightness. Temperatures could reach 16-17, cooler on the east

:47:23.:47:27.

coast. A dryer day across the Midland and East Anglia, eventually

:47:27.:47:30.

drying up across the south-east. Some rain in Kent and Hampshire

:47:30.:47:35.

until late in the day. In the south west of England, slow-moving, heavy,

:47:35.:47:38.

thundery showers could develop, as they could across parts of west

:47:38.:47:42.

Wales, like today. They will be very much hit and miss, but some

:47:42.:47:48.

places could get a real soak. For Northern Ireland expect heavy,

:47:48.:47:51.

intense downpours, not everywhere catching one. Some places in the

:47:51.:47:56.

east will stay dry. Much of Scotland will stay dry, showers few

:47:56.:48:01.

and far between. But temperatures struggling into double figures. Not

:48:01.:48:04.

much warmer on Wednesday. The likelihood of heavy showers for

:48:04.:48:07.

Northern Ireland. Further south for parts of Wales and south-west

:48:07.:48:12.

England. There could well be some lively downpours across Wednesday.

:48:12.:48:15.

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