19/06/2012 Newsnight


19/06/2012

Kirsty Wark talks to Aung San Suu Kyi. Julian Assange seeks political asylum. Should striking doctors get paid? The EU plays whipping boy at the G20 summit in Mexico.


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Tonight, Aung San Suu Kyi in Britain, after more than 20 years,

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speaks to Newsnight, and for the first time, says that if the people

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desire it, she will lead her country. If I can lead them in the

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right way, yes. She tells us of the sacrifice her family made.

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family made a lot of sacrifices, in order to help me to do what I

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thought, and I believe, that I should do. The victory, in some

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ways, is in the endeavour. Also tonight, it emerges that some

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doctors who strike on Thursday over pension reforms, will still pick up

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their day's pay. But this man, who just stepped down as David

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Cameron's key adviser on public service reform says the Government

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needs to go further and faster. Julian Assange is tonight holed up

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in the Ecuadorian embassy in London, trying to avoid extradition in to

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Sweden, where he's wanted for alleged sex crimes. We're there.

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Julian Assange is in the building behind me tonight, he's grateful to

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the Ecuadorian ambassador for assistance, but we don't know if

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his attempt to avoid extradition will succeed. The crisis was not

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originated in Europe, since you mentioned in North America, this

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cry sifs originated in North America. As the G20 leaders go

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their separate way, has the summit exposed the weakness of the project,

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as emerging powers refuse to dip in our coverers to help the eurozone.

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The Russian oligarch will be here, and the Russian Prime Minister.

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In the last few moments, the death of former Egyptian President, Hosni

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Mubarak, will be announced by state media, we will have more as it

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comes? Good evening, Kyi keys return to

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the country, where she matter yod - - Aung San Suu Kyi's return to the

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country where she married and had her children has been a long time

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coming. Her emergance after long years of house arrest in Rangoon,

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as the country took tentative steps towards reform, has catapulted Aung

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San Suu Kyi on to the world stage. An icon for the campaign for

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Burmese democracy, she's also a politician in a, so far,

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undemocratic parliament, in a country riven with ethnic disputes.

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I spoke to her this morning. First an assessment of the battles ahead.

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# Happy birthday to you Warm wishes from students on her

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67th birth day, on the presentation of what is becoming a tradition at

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the London School of Economics, the baseball cap. One was presented to

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Nelson Mandela when he visited ten years a and Aung San Suu Kyi is now

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in the same league.Today the woman who has been in and out of house

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arrest for over 20 years, is now, at last, acknowledged as the leader

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of the opposition in the Burmese parliament. But, she reminded her

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audience, there is still a lot to be done.

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Unless we attend -- amend the constitution to take into account

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the aspirations of all the people in our country, we will never be

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able to bring about the kind of unity and peace we all desire. It

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always comes down to rule of law. Under the current constitution a

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quarter of the 600 seats in parliament are reserved for the

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military, and most other members support the Government. Aung San

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Suu Kyi finally entered parliament, after her party, the National

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League for Democracy, won 43 seats in by-elections in April. With a

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small minority, what can she done? They have around 6-7% of seats in

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the parliament. They are reaching out to other parties in the

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parliament as well. Really, their best hope, their strategy is to try

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to reach out to the military and persuade them of the need for

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further democratic reform, and eventually constitutional reform as

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well. In addition to demands for political reform, the Government is

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involved in fighting with rebel armies along the country's eastern

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borders. I visited the area earlier this

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year, and found hunger and despair among some 50,000 refugees who fled

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Government troops, with aid agencies claiming that they are not

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allowed to bring in supplies. Some leaders told me that they were

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disappointed that Aung San Suu Kyi hadn't spoken out about their might.

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Indeed, people are generally surprised that she hasn't said more

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about the on going ethnic conflict, which have the capacity to tear the

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country apart. She has been strangely quiet about a new

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emergency, which has recently broken out to the North West of

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Burma. There have been bloody race riots

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between Buddhists and Muslims living on the border with

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Bangladesh. The World Food Programme reported today that

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90,000 displaced people are in urgent need of aid. In the past

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year you have actually had an increase in human rights abuses

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taking place against the ethnic minorities in Burma. This is still

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a very critical situation there. The central Government has reached

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out and signed several ceasefires with the armed ethnic political

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groups, but so far is refusing to go for the next step, and enter

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into real deep political dialogue to address the root causes of the

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problems. There has been huge personal

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sacrifice for Aung San Suu Kyi. In 1991, her Nobel Peace Prize was

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collected by her husband and her sons. She refused to leave Burma,

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knowing that the military authorities would never let her

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return. Eight years later her husband, the Tibetan scolar,

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Michael Aris, died, she hadn't seen him for four years.

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She has always argued that her suffering, under house arrest, was

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nothing to others in her party, who have spent decades in jail. In

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Rangoon a few weeks ago, I met with the wife of a political prisoner.

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The National League for Democracy claim there are still up to 600

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political prisoners in Burma today. No wonder some criticise Aung San

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Suu Kyi for agreeing to work w and to trust the country's President,

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General Thein Sein. The cynics would argue that the

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generals have got Aung San Suu Kyi exactly where they want her, in a

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parliament dominated bit army, where she scarcely has a voice.

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Meanwhile they are being congratulated for bringing her into

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the fold. Sanctions on Burma have been suspended, and businesses are

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queuing up to get in there. In recent speeches, she has told

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international companies not to be too quick to invest in Burma,

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before they can be sure that the Road Map towards rule -- road map

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towards truly democratic elections in 2015, is being followed. These

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days I'm coming aloss a lot of what I would call reckless optimisim,

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that is not going to help you or us. As she herself has warned,

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everything is reversible, and the next two years will be crucial.

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I met Kyi earlier today for her first television -- Aung San Suu

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Kyi earlier today for her first television since arriving back in

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the UK. Recently you said the important time for democracy in

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Burma is now, and you need to work now to ensure 2015 is what you want

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it to be, what exactly needs to happen, what are your priorities?

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First of all, we have to make sure there are new players on the scene.

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This is all about inclusiveness, democracy is about inclusiveness.

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Previously when there was a military deck Tateorship, only

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those connected to the military dictatorship were allowed to take

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part in the Government of the country, and the political process.

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Even in the economic scene, it was they who would dominant. We need

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new players coming in. What about a constitutional reform, at first,

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for the NLD, they argued it was undemocratic to have 25% of the

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seats in parliament for the army. Presumably that is one of your

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earliest priorities, to change the constitution. Quite recently the

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defence minister said at a conference in Singapore that the

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military had no intention of hanging on to the 25% forever. And

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when the time was right they would decrease their part in the role in

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parliament. That is not bad to begin with. This after we had said

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we wanted amendments to the constitution. Though they can still

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impose Martian law at will? This is where -- marshall law at will? This

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is why there needs to be an amendment. The NLD reckons there is

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up to 600 political prisoners, how quickly can you get them out?

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According to our list there are about 271 left, the others have

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been released. We have been in touch with the Ministry of Home

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affairs to find out what is happening about these other

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prisoners. I hear there is a move to release more prisoner, quite

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soon. Have you talked to Thein Sein about that? No, not in recent days,

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I have been in Europe, I wouldn't have been able to talk to him.

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said in your Nobel speech that absolute peace is unobtainable in

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our world, is that the same for Burma? It is internal and external

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peace, that is absolute peace, we can have peace in our country, and

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achieve political and national peace, but absolute peace each one

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will have to work at for himself or herself. In terms of absolute peace,

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your father wanted autonomy in internal administration for a

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number of Burma's hot spots is that doable? If it is part aspirations

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of the ethnic minorities, this is the only way to have a true union.

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Do you think in a country of more than 100 ethnic groups that it can

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be a co-heent state, or Burma -- coherent state, or Burma will have

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this peace? Over the years of trouble we have experienced how

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strong the unity between the ethnic nationalties can be, because our

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best and most reliable allies were the ethnic nationality parties. I

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think this is possible. I know from my own experience that this is

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possible. You are in a very different place

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politically now, is there a danger though, that you have been, in a

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way, a victim of a confidence trick that the Government has you where

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it wants you, and it has got what it wanted? Where has it got me?

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has got what it wanted in terms of the lifting, the immediate lifting

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of EU sanctions, and American sanctions? The suspension of

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sanctions, which is not the same as the lifting of sanctions. But it

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was not gradual, it was there, they have been suspended for a year. Is

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that what you talked about, the reckless optimisim? No, I was

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talking more in terms of investors bumming into Burma and not thinking

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about the consequence -- Burma -- coming into Burma and not thinking

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about the consequences for people there. For too long the Government

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has blamed sanctions for the mess the economy was in, and now they

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will have to prove that without sanctions they can really do

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something for the economy. And then the second reason is that I think

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we need to look for to our own resources, the internal resources

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of the country to bring about change, than to depend too much on

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external factors. The concern is that Burma accommodated you,

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because economically they wanted to open up the country. Now you have

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gimp them the key and the flood gates are open, Coca-Cola, WPP,

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General Electric, how will they help you get towards democracy?

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is not helping me, it is to help the people. That is why what I said

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we want democracy-friendly, human rights-friendly input into the

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country. If they are doing business with cronies, and those who will

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use their new economic powers to consolidate the grip of the

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Government, then I think we will have to expose them. I think we are

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in a position to do that in this world. But what power do you

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actually have now, what leverage do you have with this Government? If

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you have 50 million people who are now going to enjoy the fruits of a

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different kind of economy? Who is saying they are going to enjoy the

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fruits of a different kind of economy? This is exactly what I'm

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saying, if the new investment empowers the people, well and good.

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They will take care of getting democracy for themselves. If the

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new investment simply helps to make this Government, which is actually

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the heir of the previous military regime, stronger, that is not what

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they want, that is not what the people want either. Coca-Cola, are

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they really going to hold back? They are after their shareholders,

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aren't they? If they don't hold back, we can reach across to Coca-

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Cola customers all over the world. You remember what happened to

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PepsiCola it was not of anything done in Burma, but the threat of

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the students in American universities to boycott Pepsi that

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made them draw out. We have this access to the world that we have

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not had before W this access we can watch what the new investors are up

:14:17.:14:27.
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Finally, Aung San Suu Kyi, you were treated with great cruelly n way.

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Your late husband wrote in 1991, that you always used to say that if

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your people ever needed you, you would not fail them. If this is as

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far as you said, if Burma doesn't get democracy, will your family

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sacrifice have been worth it? didn't sacrifice my family. I don't

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think of it that way. My family made a lot of sacrifices in order

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to help me to do what I thought and I believed that I should do. And

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the victory, in some ways, is in the endeavour. I'm not the only one

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working for democracy in Burma. There are so many people who have

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worked for it, because they believed that this is the only way

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in which we can maintain the dignity for our people, that they

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will continue. And I don't quite understand your question, I do not

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see why we should think that Burma will not achieve democracy simply

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because we have opened up the economy. Many countries have opened

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up the economy, and that has helped them to achieve democracy quicker.

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But, with elections in 2015, you always say it is not about you, it

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is about the Burmese people. Would you be prepared, and do you want to

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lead your people? If I can lead them in the right way, yes. Aung

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San Suu Kyi, thank you very much indeed.

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Not only will doctors strike on Thursday, for the first time in

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more than 40 years, some Healt Trusts have said they will be paid

:15:57.:16:07.
:16:07.:16:16.

for the day for not treating patients. The man who was the

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adviser on health service reform until a fortnight ago, it is the

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wider changes or lack of them is the problem. Sean Worth, who has

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joined the Policy Exchange, says the Government has to reach far-

:16:32.:16:37.

reaching changes fast, rather than being seen to slash services, or

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lose the argument. This leaflet is coming through your

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letterbox one day soon. When Nye Bevan said he had to stuff

:16:51.:16:54.

doctors' mouths with gold, he at least thought it was in return for

:16:55.:16:58.

work. The NHS's creation story, saw doctors wrangle with politicians

:16:58.:17:03.

over their pay and benefits. Nearly 70 years on it is no less true, in

:17:03.:17:07.

fact, gold is begetting gold. On Thursday when GPs take industrial

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action on their pensions, the first in 40 years, some of their number

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will still get paid. The Government has reneged on a

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deal. In 2008 they renegotiated the NHS pension scheme, for the

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entirety of the NHS, and doctors were asked to put more money into

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the scheme, which we willingly did. We were prepared to pay our fair

:17:29.:17:33.

share. That agreement was torn up by the Government in 2011. They

:17:33.:17:37.

just simply said we are no longer feeling bound by. That they are now

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asking to us pay even more in our contributions. We just feel that is

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fundamentally unfair. Their critics say it is a far cry

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from the conditions of those doctors in the early NHS. Now a

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doctor, retiring at 65, will get a pension of �53,000, if they retire

:17:56.:18:01.

at 68, they get a pension of �68 though though because this is later

:18:01.:18:04.

than scheduled and they will have contributed more over their

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lifetimes, the doctors are taking industrial action.

:18:10.:18:16.

It was reported today that nine of the 50 Primary Care Trusts across

:18:16.:18:20.

England, will not dock doctors' pay. Some hospital also salaries for

:18:20.:18:24.

those taking part on Thursday, but nonetheless, some Tory MPs are very

:18:24.:18:28.

displeased. When I first qualified as a doctor, doctors were

:18:28.:18:34.

overworked and underpaid. I often used to do 100-hour weeks, that is

:18:34.:18:37.

unacceptable. Now in the UK we have some of the highest-paid doctors in

:18:37.:18:45.

the world. The average GP now earns �1 10,000, and a GP partner will

:18:45.:18:49.

receive �35,000 on top of that bonus. Under Government reforms we

:18:49.:18:54.

will see doctors retiring on a pension of �68,000, mass a massive

:18:54.:18:57.

pension by anybody's standards, working in the private or public

:18:57.:19:00.

sector. It is quite right the doctors are asked to pay a little

:19:00.:19:06.

more towards that pension. What seems to me completely unconable,

:19:06.:19:10.

is there is looked to look after patients, will harm patients by

:19:10.:19:15.

going out on strike. Tonight the Health Secretary has written to the

:19:15.:19:18.

BMA, warning them of the consequences of their actions.

:19:18.:19:22.

Those consequences are, that if the GPs don't accept the pension

:19:22.:19:28.

changes, it will be nurses who accept, up to �100 extra a week.

:19:28.:19:32.

The Government see it as a trial of strength, the Labour Government,

:19:32.:19:35.

they say, flunked the test over GP pay, this time, they can't afford

:19:35.:19:43.

to flunk the test, they say. The British Medical Association has ban

:19:43.:19:46.

effective organisation since Nye Bevan. They are powerful and

:19:46.:19:49.

effective, back in the days of Labour, that was an area of huge

:19:49.:19:52.

expansion, of spending on the National Health Service. It was

:19:52.:19:57.

much easier to give more generous pay offers in terms of pay and

:19:57.:20:05.

pensions. Now in we are in an era of contraction, it is much tougher

:20:05.:20:09.

in pay and pensions. There is a lot of anger around the health service

:20:09.:20:13.

reforms. Doctors are very much against those. It is a mixture of

:20:13.:20:17.

emotional anger about that, plus there may be some quid pro quo, we

:20:17.:20:21.

are going to operate on this unpopular reform, you have to pay

:20:21.:20:26.

us more generously to do that. Doctors believe they have been

:20:26.:20:31.

wronged. Not just that they are effective in campaigning against

:20:31.:20:34.

being wronged. At the moment the NHS pension scheme is running in

:20:34.:20:37.

excess. There are more people contributing than people taking out.

:20:37.:20:43.

There is actually a surplus each year of �2 billion. That money does

:20:43.:20:46.

not go back into the pension pot, that money goes to the Exchequer.

:20:46.:20:51.

It helps pay the tax bills for all of us. So at the moment, yes, the

:20:51.:20:57.

Government is benefiting very much from the NHS pension scheme.

:20:57.:21:01.

As the Government squares up to the doctors, today one of the Prime

:21:01.:21:04.

Minister's closest advisers, who left Government two weeks ago,

:21:04.:21:08.

issues a collateralian call for something like the spirit of Bevan.

:21:08.:21:17.

More reform of health services, not less. Sean Worth takes aim, he says

:21:17.:21:21.

the trade unions have greater funding than political parties. He

:21:21.:21:26.

singled out the doctors' lead he isers, he said they are -- leaders,

:21:26.:21:36.
:21:36.:21:37.

he said they are not doctors, they are trade unions. In 1948 the

:21:37.:21:40.

British Medical Association was on the same side as the Tory Party,

:21:40.:21:44.

against reforms to healthcare, now they are ranged against each other,

:21:44.:21:51.

each telling the other, physician, heal thy self. With me first is

:21:51.:21:54.

Sean Worth, special adviser to David Cameron until last month, and

:21:54.:22:01.

working on health sector reform, he now works for the think-tank Policy

:22:01.:22:06.

Exchange. You worked closely trying to formulate these reforms, what is

:22:06.:22:09.

the problem? What I'm saying is currently we have a unique

:22:09.:22:16.

situation in the political cycle. We have a position where with

:22:16.:22:20.

necessity there has to be spending with restraint. Of course that

:22:20.:22:28.

affects public services. You reform them and get it better and get

:22:28.:22:32.

charities and new technology involved there. Or you have a

:22:32.:22:37.

programme that can be charicatured as just spending restraint. That is

:22:37.:22:42.

not positive enough. The biggest thing to me has been the fact that

:22:42.:22:46.

you can't seem to reform anything in this country without expending

:22:46.:22:50.

huge amounts of political capital, suicidal amounts almost, why is

:22:50.:22:54.

that? Why is that, is it because the Government's reform plan is

:22:54.:22:58.

simply not set out properly, it hasn't been worked on properly the

:22:58.:23:03.

tilt is always towards cuts rather than reform? Of course, your

:23:03.:23:06.

political opponents will use that charicature, but the big thing for

:23:06.:23:12.

me, having worked in Government and politics for many years has been

:23:12.:23:18.

the, when the nation is now coming together, at this very unique time,

:23:18.:23:22.

you have Government actually pushing through quite moderate

:23:22.:23:26.

reforms. Too moderate for you, do you think? Nobody's saying rip up

:23:26.:23:30.

the public sector, they are saying bring in charities, businesses,

:23:30.:23:33.

technology. The big issue is the trade unions, which have quite

:23:33.:23:37.

rightly always had a great role in this debate, have suddenly become,

:23:37.:23:43.

I think, a bit more perni,, they are crossing the line with with the

:23:43.:23:50.

propaganda they are putting out. While we can have a constructive

:23:50.:23:53.

debate around, in this very difficult time, how do we provide

:23:53.:23:57.

the best services for people, when there isn't the kind of money that

:23:57.:24:01.

has been ploughed into them in the past. How do we best do that. The

:24:01.:24:04.

problem is you are not getting anything constructive from the

:24:04.:24:07.

other side. Are you suggesting the Government is losing the argument

:24:07.:24:10.

on reform, because it is not, either presenting it properly, or

:24:10.:24:16.

it is not formulating it properly? You know, I personally worked in

:24:16.:24:22.

Government on this stuff. I didn't expect the huge volume of trade

:24:22.:24:26.

union campaign that you have to actually come up against. Do you

:24:26.:24:30.

think the Government really failed to anticipate the response? Look, I

:24:30.:24:33.

think, I don't think that anyone thought it would be easy. Tony

:24:33.:24:36.

Blair told us he had scars on his back from taking these guys on, and

:24:36.:24:41.

he was with the Labour Party. said had he scars on his back,

:24:41.:24:48.

surely the whole idea is to device a way in -- devise a way to promote

:24:48.:24:50.

reforms, produce better services and get the public on side. That is

:24:50.:24:56.

clearly what you think the Government has failed to do? Look,

:24:56.:25:02.

I 6 I -- I think you do burn political capital and you go fast

:25:02.:25:05.

and have to bring people but. The most important thing is to actually

:25:05.:25:10.

do it. We have a lot of ambition, currently, for bringing in those

:25:10.:25:16.

charities and businesses. The whole vision? Brilliant vision.

:25:16.:25:20.

Politically you come up against huegs opposition that isn't

:25:20.:25:24.

constructive. Everyone is in this together, we have an economy that

:25:24.:25:27.

needs to be put back on track. Thursday's strike by doctors will

:25:27.:25:32.

be an ideal example of how, they are talking about their own perks

:25:32.:25:34.

and interests, and we're all talking about how to get the

:25:34.:25:37.

economy back on track. Thank you very much indeed.

:25:37.:25:41.

Let's talk about that right now. To discuss it with Dr Hamish Meldrum,

:25:41.:25:44.

chair of the British Medical Association, which represents

:25:44.:25:49.

doctors, and is in favour of the strike. And Dr Sarah Wollaston,

:25:49.:25:54.

Conservative MP and member of the health select committee, who worked

:25:54.:26:01.

as a GP before entering parliament. Dr Meldrum, it is only the patients

:26:01.:26:06.

losing out on Thursday, but you are being paid? Doctors will be dealing

:26:06.:26:09.

with all urgent and emergency care and anybody who needs to be seen.

:26:09.:26:15.

They will not be working normally? That is true. Pick up on something

:26:15.:26:19.

that was said, -- picking up on something that was said, nobody is

:26:19.:26:23.

against reform, to put that to rest, we didn't need the huge structural

:26:23.:26:27.

reform that the NHS went through. That is not, it seems, what the

:26:27.:26:31.

doctors' main beef s the doctors' main beef seems to be, that they

:26:31.:26:35.

don't have enough money to fund their retirement? The reason I'm

:26:35.:26:38.

saying we are not against reform. We had a major reform of the NHS

:26:38.:26:42.

scheme only four years ago, in 2008, when doctors and nurses agreed to

:26:42.:26:47.

pay more, to work longer, and not only that, to make it sustainable,

:26:47.:26:52.

which taking the risk of any increase from the public sector

:26:52.:26:55.

purse, and freezing the public sector contributions to pension

:26:55.:27:03.

schemes. A very quick question, how does your, what would you say, go-

:27:03.:27:07.

slow going on Thursday, actually help patients? It doesn't help

:27:07.:27:11.

patients. I would apologise the impact on patients. Nobody wants

:27:11.:27:14.

that. I didn't go into medicine to do. That but when you are faced

:27:14.:27:18.

with a Government that doesn't really want to listen and negotiate,

:27:18.:27:22.

we have to represent the anger that is in the profession. It is not the

:27:22.:27:26.

BMA, in that sense, leading this. We balloted our members, over 50%

:27:26.:27:31.

of them responded, and of those who responded, over 70% wanted to take

:27:31.:27:35.

this action. Isn't the problem what you have, you are not getting the

:27:35.:27:38.

arguments across, you are actually banging up against the doctors, and

:27:38.:27:41.

it is possibly a fight that you won't win? I think we have to win

:27:41.:27:46.

this fight, as Sean says. There is no doubt doctors do a great job and

:27:46.:27:49.

they are very well paid. This isn't a dispute about knocking doctors.

:27:49.:27:52.

This is about having fairness here. I think it is plain wrong for

:27:52.:27:57.

doctors to go on strike, because it is going to feel like a strike if

:27:57.:28:02.

your operation is cancelled, let as face it, it is very wrong for

:28:02.:28:05.

doctors, who are very well paid, amongst the best paid in the public

:28:05.:28:10.

sector, to go on strike over their pensions. Doctors, I mean everybody

:28:10.:28:15.

said they had great pay rises in early 200, they were reasonable.

:28:15.:28:18.

Since then, we are in the third year of a pay freeze, we have

:28:18.:28:21.

already reformed the public sector, where we are paying more, and the

:28:21.:28:24.

Government is tearing up that scheme. Andrew Lansley is saying

:28:25.:28:33.

doctors are generally, in terms of actuarily, will be in retirement

:28:33.:28:37.

longer than they are working, everyone is taking a hit. If you

:28:37.:28:43.

get more, the nurses will get less? Nobody is saying we want more at

:28:43.:28:49.

the expense of the nurses, we have already taken the hit, we have

:28:49.:28:53.

moved the retirement age to 65, and pay more, and taken the hit in

:28:53.:28:57.

terms of any increase on the public purse. That was all dealt with in

:28:57.:29:01.

2008. You know a lot of doctors, if you were a doctor still wouldn't

:29:01.:29:04.

you be feeling the same? Nobody wants to pay more and work longer.

:29:04.:29:08.

That is the reality, the world has changed since 2008, everybody knows

:29:09.:29:12.

that, everybody else across the public sector is waking up to the

:29:13.:29:16.

reality of our pension situation. So doctors will be worse off than

:29:16.:29:21.

they would be under the plans for example in 2008? Let's put it in

:29:21.:29:24.

context. A doctor who is 40 now will be working for two extra years

:29:24.:29:29.

to get the same deal as they get now. A new doctor coming in at 24,

:29:29.:29:33.

this is in 2015, will have to work until they are 65. I don't think

:29:33.:29:37.

that's a bad deal. The doctor is going to have to be paying an awful

:29:37.:29:41.

lot for more that. They will have to be paying double of what the

:29:41.:29:43.

equivalent civil servant will be paying for the same pension, that

:29:43.:29:50.

is not fair. Just before we finish on this. Lots of surveys show, that

:29:50.:29:54.

if it comes to the public trusting people, at the moment they trust

:29:54.:29:58.

doctors, more than they trust politicians. So aren't you going to

:29:58.:30:01.

have to be very careful about this one? Indeed, I would say, having

:30:01.:30:05.

been both, I think the thing that you really notice when you change

:30:05.:30:10.

your letter from GP to MP, you notice how it feels to be on the

:30:10.:30:13.

more chilly end of public opinion. I think that doctors will really

:30:13.:30:16.

pay the price, if they lose the public's trust over this strike.

:30:16.:30:20.

Andrew Lansley says there is no budging on this pension, is that

:30:20.:30:23.

absolutely the last word? That is absolutely the last word. It has to

:30:23.:30:26.

be the last word. Thank you very much indeed, all of

:30:26.:30:29.

you. WikiLeaks founder, Julian Assange,

:30:29.:30:34.

is tonight sheltering in the Ecuadorian embassy in London, in an

:30:34.:30:37.

attempt to avoid extradition to Sweden were he faces allegations of

:30:37.:30:42.

rape and sexual assault, made by two former WikiLeaks's volunteers

:30:42.:30:46.

in 2010. The Ecuadorian Foreign Minister says his request for

:30:46.:30:51.

asylum is being considered, and if granted t would avoid the posthablt

:30:51.:30:54.

Sweden would accede to American demands that Assange would be

:30:54.:31:00.

shipped to the US to face the trial for the avalanche of WikiLeaks. I'm

:31:00.:31:05.

joined by Tim Whewell, outside the Ecuadorian embassy tonight. What is

:31:05.:31:11.

going on there tonight? Tonight, so far all we know is that Julian

:31:11.:31:15.

Assange has expressed his gratitude to the Ecuadorian ambassador for

:31:15.:31:20.

offering to help. But, of course, consultations are really only just

:31:20.:31:24.

beginning and will continue tomorrow about what to do. The

:31:24.:31:29.

background to this is the Supreme Court here, last week, said a final

:31:29.:31:35.

no to Assange's legal attempt to avoid extradition to Sweden were he

:31:35.:31:40.

faces charges of rape and sexual assault. Of course Assange has

:31:40.:31:43.

always denied those charges. But what he fears much more is if he

:31:43.:31:48.

goes to Sweden, it is then that he would be, there would be an attempt

:31:48.:31:52.

by the United States to extradite him to the United States, on much

:31:53.:31:58.

more serious charges of espionage, arising out of the WikiLeaks

:31:58.:32:01.

themselves. The understanding certainly in his camp, is the

:32:01.:32:06.

United States grand jury, in secret, has already indicted him on those

:32:06.:32:10.

charges. Why does he think the Ecuadorian embassy is a

:32:10.:32:19.

particularly good bet? Ecuador has a left-wing administration. It has

:32:19.:32:22.

had various disputes with the United States before. It is obvious

:32:22.:32:26.

there have been talks between the Assange camp and Ecuador. What

:32:26.:32:30.

Ecuador is saying, the Ecuadorian embassy is saying tonight it will

:32:30.:32:34.

consult with Britain, Sweden and the United States before deciding

:32:34.:32:40.

what to do. But my understanding is that what Julian Assange is most

:32:40.:32:43.

hoping for, is that Ecuador would act, if you like, diplomatically,

:32:43.:32:53.

as an honest broker, maybe as way of trying to persuade Sweden to

:32:53.:32:56.

reject any American extradition requests, if Assange did go to

:32:56.:33:00.

Sweden. This is very hypothetical, but it is still more likely than

:33:00.:33:05.

the even more unlikely event usual possibility that Assange could

:33:05.:33:08.

physically be smuggled out of this country under diplomatic cover to

:33:08.:33:14.

Ecuador. Here to talk about all of this is a

:33:14.:33:20.

former Lib Dem leader, Menzies Campbell. First of all, if this

:33:20.:33:24.

Assange tactic works, what does it say about the whole British

:33:24.:33:30.

extradition process? It doesn't say anything about it. As long as he's

:33:30.:33:34.

in the Ecuadorian embassy he's protected. The moment he steps

:33:34.:33:40.

outside the embassy, even if Ecuadorian Government has given him

:33:40.:33:44.

asylum, he will be arrested. Even if's in a diplomatic car on the way

:33:44.:33:50.

to the airport? That might be a more difficult circumstance, at one

:33:50.:33:53.

stage he would have to step on to British soil, at that point the

:33:53.:33:57.

arrest warrant can be effective. What do you make of the conjecture

:33:57.:34:02.

that it is possible, using the Ecuadorians as a broker to try to

:34:02.:34:08.

persuade the Swedes, that if he goes to Sweden he won't go to

:34:08.:34:11.

America? What the Swedish Government have said in the past is

:34:11.:34:14.

this, if there was any question of the Americans wanting to have him

:34:14.:34:20.

extradited to the United States, they would be able tro lie on the

:34:20.:34:23.

European Convention of Human Rights. His allegation is he can't get a

:34:23.:34:31.

fair trial, and would be subject to cruel and inhumane punishment. The

:34:31.:34:35.

European Convention of Human Rights would be to his advantage. He has

:34:35.:34:39.

until the 28th of June to take his present case to the European Court

:34:39.:34:42.

of Human Rights. There has been no talk of that, he seems to have

:34:42.:34:45.

moved towards this rather than going down that road. Is there

:34:45.:34:48.

anything at all the British Government can do, why would the

:34:48.:34:52.

Ecuadorians consider consulting the British Government on this?

:34:53.:34:55.

Ecuadorians have behaved very properly so far. They have said the

:34:55.:34:59.

United Nations convention, anyone who applies for asylum has to have

:34:59.:35:03.

his or her case carefully considered. That is what they are

:35:03.:35:06.

doing at the moment. There is one other matter, worth keep anything

:35:06.:35:10.

mind, of course, one of his objections is the fact that in

:35:10.:35:14.

Sweden you can use extradition to get someone back for questioning.

:35:14.:35:19.

Where as, of course, in the United Kingdom, or the United States, for

:35:19.:35:23.

that matter, charges have to be on the table. Part of the argument is

:35:23.:35:28.

that the Swedish system allows someone to be extradited against a

:35:28.:35:32.

lower standard than would be necessary in other parts of the

:35:32.:35:37.

world. It could be possible that we could see Julian Assange camping

:35:37.:35:41.

out in the Ecuadorian embassy for hereafter? I think there was a

:35:41.:35:46.

Cardinal who went into the American semcy -- embassy in Poland during

:35:46.:35:51.

the Cold War. And more recently we have had the case of the Chinese

:35:51.:35:54.

dissident who went into the American Embassy. His presence was

:35:54.:35:58.

an embarrassment for the Chinese Government. Therefore, they were

:35:58.:36:02.

susceptible for an arrangement with the United States. But it doesn't

:36:02.:36:05.

necessarily follow that Mr Assange's presence in the

:36:05.:36:07.

Ecuadorian embassy, would have the same kind of impact on the British

:36:07.:36:11.

Government. Thank you very much.

:36:11.:36:16.

At the end of the G20 Summit, entirely dominated by the eurozone

:36:16.:36:20.

debt crisis, has it exposed an inherent weakness of the whole

:36:20.:36:23.

project. Pressure has been put on the eurozone leaders by other world

:36:24.:36:28.

leaders to sort the mess out. Because, as President Obama said,

:36:28.:36:32.

Europe's economic problems reverberate in economies around the

:36:32.:36:40.

globe. With the BRIC countries reluctant to dip into the covers.

:36:40.:36:46.

, we report on big developments emerging out of the G20. What is

:36:46.:36:49.

the latest on decisions taken? in Athens, the Conservatives are

:36:49.:36:53.

trying to form a coalition, with two other parties, the two other

:36:53.:36:56.

parties don't want to put any ministers into the coalition. Such

:36:56.:37:01.

are the joys of running a bailed out country. What has just happened

:37:02.:37:08.

in Los Cabos, at the G20 Summit, is specifically the world and the

:37:08.:37:11.

eurozone, has stepped back from the kind of bail out that put Greece

:37:11.:37:14.

into the trouble that it is in. What we understand is this, that

:37:14.:37:20.

agreement has been reached to use the 7 autobillion euros worth of

:37:20.:37:25.

bail out money that has been assembled and pledged, not any

:37:25.:37:30.

longer to bail out specific countries, such as Spain and Italy,

:37:30.:37:34.

deemed to be on the point of needing a bail out, but to go into

:37:34.:37:39.

markets and to buy their bonds. The aim that have is to redowse the

:37:39.:37:46.

interest rate on those -- reduce the interest rate on those

:37:46.:37:49.

Governments' borough. But they will go into the most important market

:37:49.:37:53.

in the world and abolish it. They will abolish market forces in the

:37:53.:37:59.

pricing of sovereign debt for the most striken countries. Instead of

:37:59.:38:03.

the rigmarole of lending them the money, on stringent conditions,

:38:03.:38:07.

that creates the death spiral. That is the agreement we understand. We

:38:07.:38:12.

are still waiting for the communique. Is there any sense in

:38:12.:38:13.

which the eurozone countries themselves have plan? Yes, they

:38:14.:38:19.

have been working on a bit more of a plan. This is the banking reform.

:38:19.:38:24.

The banking union, the wording of the leaked draft says "they intend

:38:24.:38:30.

to consider concrete steps towards a banking union". But the steps

:38:30.:38:36.

they outline, which are, the most important one is the pan-European

:38:36.:38:40.

guarantee for every depositor. These are important steps if they

:38:40.:38:45.

get their act together to do them. We could be in a week or two

:38:45.:38:49.

looking at a coherent thing coming out of Europe, that actually does

:38:49.:38:53.

finally put the block on this crisis but at the huge cost,

:38:53.:38:58.

effectively, of pooling the resources of Europe. As I say, more

:38:58.:39:01.

or less abolishing market forces in the pricing of sovereign debt.

:39:01.:39:05.

These are big steps. Do you think they have turned the corner in

:39:05.:39:10.

terms of confidence in this crisis? We saw yesterday the President of

:39:10.:39:14.

the European Commission Mr Barroso lecturing the rest of the world,

:39:14.:39:18.

saying don't tell us about democracy and political leadership,

:39:18.:39:22.

the euro is a strong project. I think they were trying to project

:39:22.:39:28.

some element of a fightback. Where all this comes from, is the end, a

:39:29.:39:33.

month ago of Merkozy, of President Sarkozy, and Angela Merkel, the two

:39:33.:39:37.

at the centre of the austerity project. That no longer exists, the

:39:37.:39:40.

balance of forces with the Americans pushing hard at the

:39:40.:39:44.

summit for a growth strategy, and the Japanese and the Chinese. Very

:39:44.:39:49.

important voices there, it has put Angela Merkel into a box. The thing

:39:49.:39:52.

we reported at the top of the segment, the idea that they will

:39:52.:40:01.

spend 7 autobillion euros, buying debt in -- 750 billion euros buying

:40:01.:40:06.

debt in the market, up to today she was resisting it. We have the

:40:06.:40:12.

Latvian Prime Minister, and here in the studio the Russian financial

:40:12.:40:17.

magnate, and pro-democracy campaigner. Do you think the bigger

:40:18.:40:22.

picture here is the shine has come out off the European post-war

:40:22.:40:27.

project. This was the enlightenment and edifice for the rest of the

:40:28.:40:32.

world, and everyone looking towards that democracy, do you think it has

:40:32.:40:36.

changed? I don't think so, I'm on Barroso's side. Nobody can deny

:40:36.:40:42.

that Europe being united have achieved must more prosperity and

:40:43.:40:47.

political problems. Its governance standard, if you compare it to in

:40:47.:40:52.

where I where in the world, is something to be -- anywhere in the

:40:52.:41:01.

world is to be desired. Russia has donated to Europe loot of money. If

:41:01.:41:06.

you look at the ECB directive about money misappropriated in the world

:41:06.:41:12.

economy last year, it is $1.2 trillion in one years. That was

:41:12.:41:16.

what I was expecting from the G20, something as regards setting up a

:41:16.:41:20.

new international body to stand up against global corruption. By the

:41:20.:41:26.

way, it was promising in 2010 that they would organise a commission to

:41:26.:41:29.

eradicate corruption, God knows what that commission is doing.

:41:29.:41:33.

we see is, actually, the economies of the countries, for whom

:41:33.:41:38.

democracy is not a priority, are stronger than the economies of the

:41:38.:41:43.

countries where democracy is the biggest preert, in Europe? There is

:41:43.:41:49.

no doubt -- Priority, in Europe? think Europe is experiencing

:41:49.:41:52.

temporary problems, there is enough fire power financially or

:41:52.:41:57.

politically, and hopefully the G20 is a turning point, in Europe

:41:57.:42:04.

finding its way to overcome the temporary difficulties. From the

:42:04.:42:07.

Latvian perspective, why would Latvia want to join a club that is

:42:08.:42:14.

in a bit of trouble at the moment? Good evening, certainly as this is

:42:14.:42:18.

a question which is often being asked. But, still, we think that

:42:18.:42:27.

the current crisis we are seeing, it is not so much a euro crisis, or

:42:27.:42:32.

eurozone crisis, it is a financial and economic crisis in certain

:42:32.:42:35.

eurozone countries, not following basic macro-economic rules. This

:42:35.:42:39.

needs to be corrected, and we don't think that there is something

:42:39.:42:44.

fundamentally wrong with the euro, or the eurozone. So we still think

:42:44.:42:50.

it is a good idea for Latvia to join the eurozone, and plan to do

:42:50.:42:56.

so as of January 1st, 2014. Is your reason for joining more a political

:42:56.:43:00.

reason, in a sense, than an economic one, as a bulwark against,

:43:00.:43:08.

as it were, the former oppressors? Well, I wouldn't really say that it

:43:08.:43:14.

is so many political reasons. Of course, strategic decisions for

:43:14.:43:20.

Latvia has been sper graigs into the EU and NATO -- integration into

:43:20.:43:25.

the EU and NATO, if you want N this sense we will be seeking to be in a

:43:25.:43:30.

core of Europe. If there are debates about having a two-speed

:43:30.:43:35.

Europe or a multiple-speed Europe, Latvia's intention will be at the

:43:35.:43:38.

core of the European developments. In this sense, of course, there is

:43:39.:43:42.

a political dimension to this, but the eurozone accession, first and

:43:43.:43:48.

foremost, it is still an economic question, and economic decision.

:43:48.:43:52.

From that purpose we also studied carefully the example of Estonia,

:43:52.:43:58.

that joined in 2011. Also, already during the eurozone crisis, we see

:43:58.:44:02.

it still served as a positive signal about financial and economic

:44:02.:44:10.

stability in Estonia. We would expect a similar effect in Latvia.

:44:10.:44:17.

Do you not get a sense of power shifting to the BRICs countries, to

:44:17.:44:20.

the emerging economies, that the whole European project is not the

:44:21.:44:25.

shining example it was. And actually, it is more like, it is

:44:25.:44:32.

perfectly possible that Greece will exit any way, and we will see a lot

:44:32.:44:36.

of unravelling? There is a lot of learning from the institutions in

:44:36.:44:43.

Europe, either at the EC level or the unilateral levels of the most

:44:43.:44:47.

developed countries, obviously. If Russia joins the EC tomorrow, which

:44:48.:44:52.

is an overexaggeration, there would be a great effect on the judicial

:44:52.:44:56.

system in Russia, and the rule of law, and the parliament overlooking

:44:56.:45:01.

the executive, and finally anti- corruption campaigning. I think it

:45:01.:45:05.

is only globally we can give a serious answer to global corruption,

:45:05.:45:08.

because most of that is international. Just on the broader

:45:08.:45:12.

point of it, it would be a very strange thing, would it not, to be

:45:12.:45:16.

seen, China is giving money to Europe at the moment. To see

:45:16.:45:19.

emerging countries giving money to European countries who may have

:45:19.:45:23.

actual low squadered a lot of what they had? I don't believe Europe

:45:23.:45:27.

does need a lot of assistance from those countries. There is still a

:45:27.:45:34.

lot of money in the local covers, if you look at the -- coffers, if

:45:34.:45:38.

you look at the Germans they were more reluctant a month ago, but

:45:38.:45:42.

they are becoming more used to the necessity of their assisting

:45:42.:45:47.

countries in Europe. From Latvia's perspective, Prime Minister, what

:45:47.:45:51.

do you think Europe would look like, or the European Union would look

:45:51.:45:56.

like a decade from now. Would it embrace even more countries, or

:45:56.:46:01.

will it, perhaps, stick, Latvia may well join, former Balkan countries,

:46:01.:46:06.

but no further. Do you think there is an optimum size for Europe, and

:46:06.:46:10.

it cannot take any poorer economies into it?

:46:10.:46:16.

As we currently see developments in Europe, it is clear that

:46:16.:46:19.

enlargement doesn't seem to be on top of the agenda. In fact, quite a

:46:19.:46:23.

few countries they are talking about enlargement fatigue and

:46:23.:46:30.

things like this. In the next decade we could expect western

:46:30.:46:34.

Balkans countries joining, but not much more. But, of course, what is

:46:34.:46:39.

more important is it is not only this process on enlargement, but

:46:39.:46:44.

what the design of the EU will be. Currently we are probably also

:46:44.:46:52.

seeing that the eurozone, having a monetary union, you also need to

:46:52.:46:58.

work more closely towards economic things. We will probably expect

:46:58.:47:02.

more economic operation in the EU. I have to stop you both there. We

:47:02.:47:06.

go straight back to the news that the Egyptian state TV announcement,

:47:06.:47:09.

that the disgraced former Egyptian President, Hosni Mubarak, has died.

:47:09.:47:18.

It seems it is not that simple. We're in Tahrir Square in Cairo we

:47:18.:47:23.

join it now. What is happening? is a night of confusion. Over the

:47:23.:47:26.

past few hours there have been conflicting report about the poor

:47:26.:47:30.

health of the former President, Hosni Mubarak. About an hour ago

:47:30.:47:35.

the state news agency and state television both report that Hosni

:47:35.:47:38.

Mubarak was clinically dead. Clinically dead after he had been

:47:38.:47:44.

moved from the prison to the military hospital in Madi, but now,

:47:44.:47:48.

in the last half hour, we are getting other reports carried by

:47:48.:47:52.

news agencies, such as Reuters, saying the former President is not

:47:52.:47:57.

clinically dead, that he suffered the heart attack, they used a

:47:57.:48:01.

defibrillator, he was unconscious, but he was still alive. That is the

:48:01.:48:04.

latest. We are waiting for new information, obviously watching it

:48:04.:48:09.

very closely. We now have conflicting reports. There was a

:48:09.:48:11.

moment here in Tahrir Square were the protests stopped, but they are

:48:11.:48:14.

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