20/06/2012 Newsnight


20/06/2012

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Emily Maitlis, including paramilitaries meting out violent punishment in Northern Ireland.


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Transcript


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Tonight, ministers clash over whether foreigners studying in

:00:11.:00:17.

Britain are immigrants. Universities are worth an estimated

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�5 billion to the UK economy, but the Government's relying on cutting

:00:21.:00:24.

the number of overseas student, to meet the immigration target.

:00:24.:00:29.

We hear from a university Vice Chancellor, and the Immigration

:00:29.:00:36.

Minister. When the world economy is not

:00:36.:00:39.

enough, David Cameron passes judgment on the financial affairs

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of a comedian. Think of all those people who work hard, pay their

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taxes, and out of that post-tax income, save up to go and see Jimmy

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Carr, he's taking that money and stuffing it into something where

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doesn't have to pay taxes, that is not fair. Should the Prime Minister

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be wading in on an individual's tax arrangements.

:00:59.:01:05.

The UK city where rough justice is methed out by paramilitary -- meted

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out by paramilitary gangs, some how away from the rule of law. It is

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the hardest thing in my life I have done, to stand and watch my son

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getting shot. I was helpless and powerless, there was nothing I

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could do. Iguanas, tropical fish and tortoises, is the foplation of

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Ecuador about to be joined by a another strange creature, Julian

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Assange. The political deadlock continues in

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Syria, what can leaders in the Arab world do to end the violence, we

:01:36.:01:46.
:01:46.:01:48.

will ask Prince Hassan of Jordan. Good evening, would you risk a �5

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billion industry if you could cut the number of immigrants. Higher

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education is one of the Britain's biggest exports for the country.

:02:00.:02:05.

Should students be included in the immigration target? Newsnight's

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learned that one senior minister is pushing in private to have them

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exempted, a move that would instantly cut the numbers on paper,

:02:15.:02:19.

whilst preserve their right to study here. Practical solution or

:02:19.:02:29.
:02:29.:02:33.

shriet of hand. London is a down gearing up for the arrival of

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countless foreigner, spectators at the Olympics, New Street signs,

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nuclearer Tube maps. They will leave, what about those who have

:02:41.:02:50.

come and not gone. When polled by Tory private

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pollsters, after being out-of-touch and living standards, immigration

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is the issue dogging voters. At the last election this Government

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pledgeed it would act, net immigration, it said, would be down

:03:01.:03:11.
:03:11.:03:12.

to tens of thousands by 20156789 Am -- 2015. Ambitious, restrictions by

:03:12.:03:18.

Theresa May to keep others out have been brought back. It has preturbed

:03:18.:03:26.

many many, -- the Tories wanted only those earning just less than

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�30,000 able to come to Britain when marrying here. Certainly

:03:30.:03:36.

nobody who might be able to claim benefits. Lib Dems want a lower cap,

:03:36.:03:40.

now there is a fresh font. Newsnight understand that is David

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Willetts is battling the Home Secretary to have students removed

:03:44.:03:48.

from the cap. He's said to believe that students are not immigrants,

:03:48.:03:53.

and he's also said the public don't believe students are immigrant. He

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pointed out that 15% of students stay as long in this country as an

:03:59.:04:03.

average immigrant. He points out if we lose students we lose a huge

:04:03.:04:07.

amount of Exchequer, he's joined across Government by many who agree.

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The Home Secretary, May, and Damian Green -- Theresa May, and Damian

:04:12.:04:18.

Green, have done a huge amount in cracking down on bogus colleagues

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and bogus applications. This was a huge issue. But on the other hand,

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four of the world's best universities are in Britain, we

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have benefited in the country tremenduously that we have

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attracted brilliant studented from around the world here. Do we want

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to attract the next generation of world leaders, the blilt and others,

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they bring with -- built and others, they bring with them diplomat --

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Bill Clinton, and others, they bring with them diplomatic ties and

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other ties, we don't want to use this.

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The immigration balance is at 250,000 a year. The university for

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Public Policy Research showed of those students amount today 200,000.

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Because Government could provoke a stampede of students leaving in the

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critical years before an election, the Government could see many more

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than just 100,000 leave, reaching its target very quickly indeed. It

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is estimated for every 50,000 students who leave the country, �2-

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�3 billion is lost to the economy. We think this is a win-win

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situation for them, by removing students from the net migration

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figure, and only counting them at the point where they switch to more

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important catagories, to marry or to work, you are removing a large

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number of migrants from the net migration figure, which looks good,

:05:42.:05:46.

but also gaining a more accurate figure of migration trends in the

:05:46.:05:48.

country, which we don't have at the moment. The Home Secretary is

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determined to press ahead, and the signs are the Prime Minister does

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still agree with her. There is some amusement at the number of Tory MPs

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and ministers who think it is their special interest that should be

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exempted. Even so, allies of Cable and Willetts think there are a

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number of people in the Treasury mind today agree with them. That

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you can't block students from an economy and not expect GDP to be

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affected. The Prime Minister made a pledge by the 2015 election, the

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number of immigrants would be down to tens of thousands. There are

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people close to him that think currently they are not on track to

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meet. That it risks being as big a breach of promise as Nick Clegg's

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was over tuition fees. The opposition think the Government is

:06:29.:06:34.

in a cul-de-sac on this debate. The adverse effects of immigration come

:06:34.:06:37.

from EU immigration, they think. This is tricky territory for the

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Labour Party, many people think they, in part, lost the 2010

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election, because they didn't have enough to say about immigration. On

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Friday, Ed Miliband, the Labour leader, will make a speech on the

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issue. It is thought he will emphasise the problems are coming

:06:51.:06:56.

just as much from immigration within the EU, as it does without.

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He will struggle to show he has any solution that is go further than

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those of his predecessors. Great British jobs for great British

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workers. It is expected the Labour leader

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will announce policies, sources say, they believe could level the

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playing field between British and European workers. This could

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include looking at whether the labour market could be change today

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discourage factories, recruiting workers from abroad, so gazumping

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UK-based job centres. The summer's tourists will be here

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very soorpbgs but gone very quickly Labour and the Conservatives

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clearly believe the question of who is in or out of the country guide

:07:36.:07:46.

who is is in or out of power. Green is the immigration minister who

:07:46.:07:52.

doesn't want students exempted from the gap, Professor Acton, the Vice

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Chancellor of the university of East Anglia is here also. When

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people think of immigration, if they think of immigration as a

:07:59.:08:02.

problem, they don't think of the students here studying for a year?

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The vast number of people in this country do think uncontrolled

:08:06.:08:08.

immigration was a problem under the previous Government. It is one of

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the most popular things this Government is trying to do, to

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control immigration. They don't level the finger at a foreign

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student, do they? The definition of an immigrant, it is a UN definition,

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not mine or the Government's. It is somebody who comes and lives in

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another country for more than a year. Student, Conservative, count

:08:27.:08:31.

-- students, count, if they stay here for more than a year, the same

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way workers do. It is sensible they. Do if somebody is here for up to

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five years, then they are living somewhere, they are take up housing,

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they are using public transport, they may well be using the health

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service. So a student is a migrant? A student here for more than a year

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is. David Willetts doesn't seem to think so? I'm relying on a EU

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definition. It is something from the IPPR said in the piece, it is

:08:57.:09:01.

fine for the Government, they can redefine t thank will make

:09:01.:09:06.

immigration much easier. You can't redesign your way out of a real

:09:06.:09:10.

problem, that is old fashioned politicians fiddling with figures.

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You could say it is a more accurate picture of what is happening. If

:09:14.:09:18.

only 15% stay in the country, surely, by doing that, you give

:09:18.:09:22.

people a much more accurate picture? That 15% figure is wrong.

:09:22.:09:29.

We have done, the Home Office has done a cohort study of the 2004

:09:29.:09:32.

students, we discovered 20% were here five years later, not just

:09:32.:09:36.

three years later, which many think is the normal length of a

:09:36.:09:41.

university course. Anyone here more than a year counts as an immigrant,

:09:41.:09:46.

there are sensible reasons to count them as so, they are living here.

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I'm afraid it is terribly implausible for the Government to

:09:49.:09:55.

pretend its hands are tied by UN recommendations on international

:09:55.:10:00.

statistic tisks. It d statistics. It can and should continue to

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provide. That in a free and independent country like this, we

:10:04.:10:07.

exempt university-sponsored students, not all students at the

:10:07.:10:12.

moment. Because they have such a high compliance with visa

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regulation records, as the good minister has brornd to say.

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course the university will be saying, that because of course they

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are a massive stream of revenue for you? You could, but we must be

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careful, nationals interest here, do you know the estimate is for

:10:26.:10:30.

every ten international students we have here, they support six British

:10:30.:10:37.

jobs. Six British jobs in retail, entertainment, cafes as well as on

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campus. Six for every ten. Push those to Australia, as this

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Government is doing, Theresa May may well be celebrated in Australia,

:10:45.:10:50.

here it is penalising people. double-dip recession, that is a

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pretty punchy move?? In a double- dip recession where we have 300,000

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unemployed graduates. We need to look at British graduates. I don't

:11:02.:11:07.

want to discourage university students. The effects of the policy,

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the student visas have fallen considerably. More than 500

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colleges that used to bring people in don't any more, many, no doubt,

:11:16.:11:20.

bogus. While the reduction has been big, the percentage of students

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studying at university, has gone up from half of total foreign students

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to two thirds of foreign students. There is plenty of opportunity to

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remove the bogus ones and leave the real ones. That is what we have

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done. And taken legitimate students out of your camp? There were 20,000

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fewer student visas issued this year than there were. The

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percentage of remaining foreign students going to universities are

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much, much higher. That is exactly what we said we would do. He's

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wrong? This is a secondhand report of what David Willetts has said, he

:12:01.:12:06.

hasn't said it to me privately. don't think he does say that?

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think David is absolutely concerned to have a strong university sector,

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so am I. The point made, is actually, it is all very well

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talking about the revenue that foreign students bring in, what

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about the places they take up from British students? They absolutely

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don't. They pay full fee, and we have been capped until very

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recently under this Government, into how many student West can take.

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They keep plane of the scientific courses alive. They are critical

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for job creation, they are why Britain has the strongest

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university sector. What do you think will happen, paint us your

:12:44.:12:49.

scenario, if this goes ahead? this continues, negative message is

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notably in India, it will bite deeper and deeper. People will say

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Britain is not welcoming. We pick that up all the time. All the

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embassies know it. It is an extraordinary thing to be doing

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when all the EOCD countries are doing the very opposite. There is

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no way you the Immigration Minister can pick on this target of the

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student population, it is a soft target? It wasn't, the student visa

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was the single biggest loophole in the system up until now. We have

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cut 57,000 in the first year from student advise sa. Chinese student

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applications are up this year. -- visa. Chinese student

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applications are up this year. We talk ourselves into this problem,

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no Government minister is saying we don't want foreign students wrecks

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want genuine student -- students, we want genuine students. What I

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want is genuine students coming here to study, not to work, and

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doing it at genuine institutions. The university-sponsored ones,

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monitored with the precision that Stalin would have enjoyed. What I

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like to hear you say is you want the numbers to grow.

:14:07.:14:11.

It is hard to imagine any circumstance in which a parent

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would hand over their child to be shot. But in a koorn of Northern

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Ireland, Londonderry, a dark side - - corner of Northern Ireland,

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Londonderry, dark side is emerging. A group is dishing out hard

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punishment to those, they say, are dealing drugs. Said to be

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responsible of the murder of one, and shooting of at least 40, RAAD

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have been advising parents to bring their children to be shot by

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appointment to spare them something more serious.

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On the western edge of the United Kingdom, this will be centre stage

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next year, as the National City of Culture. A break with its divided

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past. In pockets of Derry, we have heard about a divided present, in

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which some families are forced to part. When one of them is ordered

:15:05.:15:10.

to move away. Or even when a parent is asked to present their child to

:15:10.:15:15.

be shot in the legs. It is probably the most hardest thing I have done

:15:15.:15:19.

in my life. To stand and watch my son getting shot. I think that if

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this continues on f they don't allow him back, they will shoot him

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dead. This is barbaric what they are doing. They shoot a young man

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down, and leave two young children without father. The violence is

:15:32.:15:39.

centered on the nationalist areas of Craigen and the Bogside, those

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responsible used to be members of the Provisional IRA. Now they are

:15:41.:15:46.

own as RAAD, Republican Action Against Drugs. They claim they

:15:46.:15:56.

target drug dealers. Some of their victims say otherwise. Three months

:15:56.:16:00.

ago there was a punch-up outside this bar, two cousins got into a

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fight with a member of RAAD. Afterwards their familiar --

:16:08.:16:12.

families were told they would be shot. The father of one insisted

:16:12.:16:16.

his son had nothing do with drugs. He was forced to make an appalling

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decision. One he's willing to talk about. We sat down as a family and

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we discussed our options. Option one, leave the country, which I'm

:16:27.:16:30.

not doing. Option two, go to the police, which I can't do, for

:16:30.:16:34.

obvious reasons. They shoot me or shoot my wife or shoot my son dead

:16:34.:16:39.

for going to the police, and the easiest one was get him shot. We

:16:39.:16:44.

had to sit, as a family, and discuss the easiest way. That was a

:16:44.:16:49.

long, long night. Why couldn't you go to the police? I could have went

:16:49.:16:53.

to the police, I chose not to go to the police. If I wanted the police

:16:53.:16:58.

I would not be sitting here now. Kieran had one thing going for him.

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As a former member of the IRA himself, RAAD were willing to do an

:17:03.:17:09.

old comrade a favour. They said they would shoot your son once?

:17:09.:17:14.

because of my background as a Republican. How good much them. My

:17:14.:17:19.

son is left with a bullet lodged in his leg for the rest of his life.

:17:19.:17:23.

Other parents also make the same desperate calculation. For this

:17:23.:17:29.

woman anything to spare her son the dreaded six-pack, bull kets in the

:17:29.:17:36.

elbows, knee -- bullets in the elbow, knees and ankles. He was

:17:36.:17:41.

going to get very severely done, I thought the best thing would be to

:17:41.:17:45.

bring him forward and go with him. That's what he did, he went down

:17:45.:17:49.

the lane, when he got to the bottom he saw the men coming towards him.

:17:49.:17:53.

I turned around, then I heard the two shots, and I started, I ran

:17:53.:17:57.

down the lane. He was just lying on the ground. That's when I thought

:17:57.:18:04.

he really has been shot. There was blood just lying there. I said are

:18:04.:18:14.
:18:14.:18:14.

you all right, he said's already, mamy. The gun men have little

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difficulty enforcing their will on the people, in a community that is

:18:20.:18:25.

afraid of reprisals for talking about them. It turns out people

:18:25.:18:29.

don't have a lot of choice, come to them and they will use a small

:18:29.:18:33.

calibre handgun, or if they have to come and get you, it will be with a

:18:33.:18:37.

shotgun, and the injuries will be far worse, even life-threatening.

:18:37.:18:42.

This woman's son who has a long history of drug and social problems,

:18:42.:18:47.

has been ordered out of Derry. been put out of his own home. He

:18:47.:18:51.

has now had to go somewhere where he doesn't know anybody. It is

:18:51.:18:56.

really hard for him, he has a lot of problems as well. He's always

:18:56.:19:02.

had my support. Now he's got no support whatsoever.

:19:02.:19:06.

Since 2008, more than 40 young men have been shot, dozens more have

:19:06.:19:09.

been ordered to leave the city. Terroristised by people they know,

:19:09.:19:15.

but who remain faceless to the outside world. Through an

:19:15.:19:19.

intermediary, I arranged to meet them.

:19:19.:19:24.

I have just met and interviewed two members of RAAD's leadership, they

:19:24.:19:28.

refused to be filmed, but agreed to answer all my questions. Both claim

:19:28.:19:32.

to be former members of the Provisional IRA. They also said

:19:32.:19:37.

their group had weapons and explosions and the same capability

:19:37.:19:42.

that the provisionals had before the ceasefire. That last claim is

:19:42.:19:46.

described as lacking all credibility by the police. We have

:19:46.:19:52.

reconstructed the meeting with actors. I asked the men to justify

:19:52.:19:56.

their assertion that the community is behind them. This isn't just

:19:57.:20:00.

exprovos, these are people at university, people at work in call

:20:00.:20:05.

centres, unemployed, women, house wives, the whole community. They

:20:05.:20:09.

store arms, weapons, explosions, cars, they provide us with meeting

:20:09.:20:15.

houses, safe houses, wash houses. We're in contact with our community

:20:15.:20:19.

24-hours a day, seven days a week. We are in and out of people's

:20:19.:20:23.

houses. But they are scared you have? No. No. That's not it. They

:20:23.:20:29.

had this to say about their method. We don't beat anybody, we never

:20:29.:20:35.

have. No, no, we don't. It is a thing we don't do. We shoot people.

:20:35.:20:40.

We have not beaten anybody. We class our people as volunteers and

:20:40.:20:45.

soldiers. We give them weapons of war to do their job.

:20:45.:20:49.

It's long been the language of paramilitary groups across Northern

:20:49.:20:54.

Ireland. While the tactics have been to resist the police. At a

:20:54.:21:00.

recent protest, a BBC crew captured the moment when RAAD bombed a PSNI

:21:00.:21:04.

vehicle. They told us there would be similar

:21:04.:21:11.

attacks unless police searches stopped. The PSNI have a delem

:21:11.:21:16.

marks how do they police a community where people -- dilemma,

:21:16.:21:19.

how do they police a community where people won't give evidence

:21:19.:21:23.

and their officers may not be safe. We have been brought into the area

:21:23.:21:27.

with hoax devices planted, and when police officers go in there is

:21:27.:21:30.

petrol bombs. That means when police officers go in, they have to

:21:30.:21:34.

be equipped in numbers to protect themselves. That can create an

:21:34.:21:38.

imagery associated with the past, that these groups seek to exploilt

:21:38.:21:41.

employment. People who think the police can't people them come here

:21:41.:21:46.

for support. At Rosemount community centre, Hugh Grady, another former

:21:46.:21:52.

IRA man, has -- Brady, another former IRA man, has intercedeed in

:21:52.:21:56.

112 cases in the last 12 months. There is still people who believe

:21:56.:22:00.

we don't have a proper policing service. In those areas, what they

:22:00.:22:05.

have turned to are people like RAAD, to deal with drug dealers. We

:22:05.:22:10.

talked about the instant justice, the difficulty in this community at

:22:10.:22:13.

the moment is a drug dealer is arrested by the police, they are

:22:13.:22:18.

charged, they are out on bail the next day. And they continue to deal

:22:18.:22:24.

drugs. Now the community don't see the process of law and justice, all

:22:24.:22:32.

they see is a drug dealer back on the street. Back into the community

:22:32.:22:38.

delivering drugs to their children. So far RAAD have maintained a

:22:38.:22:42.

distinct identity from the called dissident Republican groups like

:22:42.:22:45.

the Real IRA. That was blurred recently, when they appeared

:22:45.:22:48.

together in a protest against policing.

:22:48.:22:52.

RAAD refused to comment on any links between them and the

:22:52.:22:57.

dissident groups. Saying their only aim is to tackle drug dealing, and

:22:57.:23:00.

the anti-social behaviour it brings. Wefrpblgts know we are never going

:23:00.:23:05.

to eradicate -- We know we will never eradicate the drugs problem

:23:05.:23:08.

and people will always make profits from other people, but we will make

:23:08.:23:11.

it dangerous for them. The group boasts they have the means to d

:23:11.:23:15.

that. We have no way of checking the credibility of their claims.

:23:15.:23:20.

We're strong enough that we can operate in Derry, Donegal, Strabane,

:23:20.:23:24.

Dungiven, we have more weapons in the IRA than the IRA had prior to

:23:24.:23:28.

the ceasefire. We can do everything the IRA used to do we have that

:23:28.:23:33.

capability. To encourage people to speak out

:23:33.:23:37.

against RAADa new confidential helpline has been launched. In the

:23:38.:23:44.

meantime, the gunmen remain judge, jury, and in one case, executioner.

:23:44.:23:50.

Andrew Alan was first exiled from Derry, then followed over the

:23:50.:23:56.

border into the Republican lick of Ireland and murdered. They are

:23:57.:24:01.

saying -- Republic of Ireland and murdered. They are saying he was a

:24:01.:24:04.

drug dealer and anti-social behaviour, that is their way of

:24:04.:24:09.

justifying what they done. Andrew's family were adamant that although

:24:09.:24:15.

he could traibgt trouble, he was not involved with drugs. His --

:24:15.:24:17.

could attract trouble, he was not involved in drugs. His mother wants

:24:17.:24:23.

to speak out against this. How can we call this a culture if this is

:24:23.:24:30.

going on. Next year Derry will show itself off as a vibrant place, but

:24:30.:24:34.

ever present too is its other culture, of violent republicanism,

:24:34.:24:42.

people who have kept their weapons and are prepared to use them.

:24:42.:24:45.

Northern Ireland's justice minister David Ford, joins us from Belfast.

:24:45.:24:50.

Did you know this was going on? has been clear there have been

:24:50.:24:53.

small numbers of people, as the report says in pockets in Derry,

:24:53.:24:57.

who are resisting the move towards political and peaceful progress

:24:57.:25:01.

that the vast majority of our society is moving on. We shouldn't

:25:01.:25:11.
:25:11.:25:12.

exaggerate what it is, nor should we underplay it. You saw man who

:25:12.:25:18.

took his son at an appointed time to be shot. You sae saw done in

:25:18.:25:23.

that film and her son was killed. How can this happen? The police

:25:23.:25:26.

service, in contux with the Department of Justice, announced

:25:26.:25:31.

the campaign last week against these paramilitary assaults.

:25:31.:25:35.

did it announce a campaign last week, when these assaulting have

:25:35.:25:39.

been going on since 2008, and the police force has been in place for

:25:39.:25:47.

ten years? A police force has been in place for longer than that. What

:25:47.:25:50.

you also have to acknowledge is the picture across Northern Ireland,

:25:50.:25:52.

include anything Derry, police officers are able to operate in

:25:52.:25:55.

places they couldn't a few years ago. When I was in Derry a couple

:25:55.:26:01.

of months ago, I heard about the efforts each house on the West Bank,

:26:01.:26:05.

including Bogside and craven, has the phone number and name of their

:26:05.:26:08.

local police officer, that is something impossible ten or 15

:26:08.:26:13.

years ago. There are clearly no-go areas that have city? There are no

:26:13.:26:18.

no-go areas. Why aren't they going there and stopping this from

:26:18.:26:21.

happening? Would you suggest that rioting happens in parts of London

:26:21.:26:28.

or crime happens in parts of Birmingham and Glasgow the police

:26:28.:26:33.

couldn't go there. The rioting hasn't gone on for four years?

:26:33.:26:38.

realise that organised crime in GB has been going on for a number of

:26:38.:26:42.

years. No police service can stop action like this, what is clear is

:26:42.:26:48.

there is positive work going on by the police service, supported by

:26:48.:26:51.

other agencies. The reference at the end of the clip referred to

:26:51.:26:55.

Derry and the progress that is being made and the work being done

:26:55.:27:02.

towards City of Culture next year. Their clean-up rate on

:27:02.:27:05.

paramilitary-style attacks 4%, don't you find that pathetic?

:27:05.:27:08.

you have to look at the circumstances in which this is

:27:08.:27:11.

happening. That is why the particular initiative is being

:27:11.:27:14.

announced by the police to deal with this. That is why you heard

:27:14.:27:20.

the mother of Andrew Alan, murdered by RAAD, talking about working to

:27:20.:27:24.

change things. You are talking about a community that is too

:27:24.:27:27.

scared to come to the police or approach the state. They take their

:27:27.:27:32.

children to be shot, because they are too scared not to? We are not

:27:32.:27:35.

talking about a community that is too scared. We are talking about a

:27:35.:27:39.

certain number of families too scared to do anything else. You are

:27:39.:27:42.

in danger of exaggerating what is clearly a very significant problem,

:27:42.:27:45.

a problem that is being addressed by the relevant agencies, and which

:27:45.:27:48.

support is needed from the community to back up the work being

:27:48.:27:53.

done by the police. To suggest that entire communities are suffering

:27:53.:27:59.

for this is to grossly exaggerate the issue. We shouldn't exaggerate

:27:59.:28:04.

it, as we shouldn't understatement How have the tax affairs of a

:28:04.:28:10.

comedian become the concern of the Prime Minister. David Cameron today

:28:10.:28:17.

branded the tax exploits of Jimmy Carr as morally reprehensible, as

:28:17.:28:22.

it wasry re- veeld he puts his money in an offshore K2 scheme. The

:28:22.:28:27.

tax he pays amounts to 1%. Where does tax prudence become tax

:28:27.:28:30.

avoidance, where does legal behaviour, moral or otherwise,

:28:30.:28:36.

become a matter for the PM. It is not morally acceptable. I put

:28:36.:28:39.

it like this. Think of all the people who work hard, and pay their

:28:40.:28:45.

taxes, out of that post-tax income save up to go and see Jimmy Carr.

:28:45.:28:52.

He's taking that money and putting it in places where he doesn't have

:28:52.:28:56.

to pay taxes. That is not fair or right. Newsnight managed to speak

:28:56.:29:01.

to Jimmy Carr, unfortunately he didn't want to do an interview. We

:29:01.:29:05.

will hear more of what he said a few moments ago. Why do you think

:29:05.:29:09.

David Cameron waded in on this one, and what will be the political

:29:09.:29:13.

consequence of this? We should get one thing clear. The reason we are

:29:13.:29:16.

talking about it now is an individual was involved. They have

:29:16.:29:21.

talked about taxes and moral issues before the budget, it has Frances

:29:21.:29:26.

Osborne talking about sorts of avoidance -- George Osborne talking

:29:26.:29:31.

about sources of avoidance being morally repugnant. There are all

:29:31.:29:34.

sorts of things going on with Switzerland, they do think their

:29:34.:29:40.

record is fairly good. If you are trying to show there is a problem

:29:40.:29:45.

at the bottom of the society, and at the top, by the same way in

:29:45.:29:50.

cutting the autop tax, they are happy to be associated with unnamed

:29:50.:29:53.

individuals behaving the same way as Jimmy Carr does. The Prime

:29:53.:29:58.

Minister felt he had to wade in. In a consequence he hasn't computed,

:29:58.:30:02.

because he's slightly tired because of a trip to Mexico, or they aren't

:30:02.:30:07.

thinking a way ahead, now you have named an individual everyone is

:30:07.:30:12.

fair game, that is including the Prime Minister's family. The papers

:30:13.:30:18.

are calling it back to basics for tax. The press will have loads of

:30:18.:30:27.

fun going at you again and again. I have my guest with me now

:30:27.:30:32.

Was he riot to step in and call this -- right to step in and call

:30:32.:30:37.

this morally unacceptable? Whether he stepped in and simply answered a

:30:37.:30:39.

question is something I don't know. The Prime Minister is right to

:30:39.:30:44.

answer questions. But I think I would quote Lord collide from 1929

:30:44.:30:49.

who set out the legal -- Lord Clyde on from 1929 who set out the legal

:30:49.:30:53.

position on this. He said no man in this country is under the smallest

:30:53.:30:58.

obligation, moral or others, save to arrange his legal relations to

:30:58.:31:04.

his business or property, to enable the revenue to put the largest

:31:04.:31:08.

possible shovel into his stores. That is the moral and legal

:31:08.:31:12.

position. We have a moral duty to obey the law, but not to pay more

:31:12.:31:18.

tax than the law requires. The I can't help thinking the

:31:18.:31:22.

person David Cameron wants to distance himself from right now s a

:31:22.:31:29.

Lord from 1929? But it was a judgment in a legal case in case on

:31:29.:31:32.

the Inland Revenue. It is still the law of the land. We have to look at

:31:32.:31:38.

the law in this case not high terms about what people may or may not

:31:38.:31:42.

want. Of course we have to deal with the law, but the coalition

:31:42.:31:45.

agreement was clear at the beginning, wu one of the things we

:31:45.:31:48.

brought to the discussions -- one of the things we brought to the

:31:48.:31:53.

discussions, that we have to deal with tax avoidance to tax evasions.

:31:53.:31:59.

From the very first budget money was put in by the Treasury, just �1

:31:59.:32:04.

billion to collect �7 billion of uncollected taxes. Then there was

:32:04.:32:09.

the attempt to get around the stamp duty of Asia, where people had put

:32:09.:32:13.

their money into an offshore company. We are not talking about

:32:13.:32:17.

evasion, but about something that is utterly legal, from a law maker

:32:17.:32:23.

who could change the law f he so thought? The answer is, of course

:32:23.:32:32.

it has to be dealt with by the law. From all I know the Government is

:32:32.:32:34.

absolutely determined to make sure everybody pays a decent proportion

:32:34.:32:39.

of their wages in taxes, and the clever ones and the rich ones, and

:32:39.:32:44.

the ones with a lot of local and accountany advice, don't manage to

:32:44.:32:47.

get out of the obligation that ordinary people referred to by the

:32:47.:32:51.

Prime Minister meet every day. Maybe that is how laws changed, you

:32:51.:32:54.

get the feel from the public for something they don't like. Maybe

:32:54.:32:59.

this is the beginning of what will be achange in the law? That is

:32:59.:33:01.

completely unreasonable, for tax- payers, they need to know whether

:33:01.:33:05.

they owe tax or not. They can't think does the country think I

:33:05.:33:11.

should pay a bit more or a bit less. Some tax avoidance...There Is no

:33:11.:33:14.

morality for you at all in this country? I think it is a legal

:33:14.:33:20.

question. The Government can change the law. I happen to think...If

:33:20.:33:25.

earn �3 million and you are earning 1%, do you find anything about that

:33:26.:33:31.

reprehensible? I think Mr Carr will find as Ken dod did, it is

:33:31.:33:34.

interesting comedians get in trouble with their tax apayers,

:33:34.:33:44.
:33:44.:33:45.

that what he's doing isn't within the law. I -- tax-payers -- tax

:33:45.:33:50.

problems, what he is doing isn't within the law. I remember the

:33:50.:33:55.

phrase George Osborne used in the budget, that was about excessive

:33:55.:34:00.

tax avoidance, as if a little bit is OK, we have talked about ISAs

:34:00.:34:04.

and pensions, and a lot isn't OK. Who is drawing the line? This is a

:34:04.:34:08.

debate within Government. But the Government, I disagree

:34:08.:34:13.

fundamentally with Jacob and his position. The position is the

:34:13.:34:15.

Government have identified, for example, that there were people

:34:15.:34:19.

working for the Government as individuals who were organising

:34:19.:34:22.

their affairs, so they weren't paid directly as salaries. And therefore,

:34:22.:34:26.

paying the tax in the normal way, pay as your concern, they were

:34:26.:34:30.

managing their affairs to pay less. That has been ended, the Government

:34:30.:34:35.

is to track down where they are, and everybody will pay tax properly.

:34:35.:34:39.

I have discovered there are increasing numbers of organisations,

:34:39.:34:43.

companies, whoa work for the gofpl, they do public -- who work for the

:34:43.:34:49.

Government, they do public services. They pay far less than they would

:34:49.:34:54.

under corporation tax. There must be an absolute ruthless

:34:54.:34:57.

determination to make sure people don't evade or avoid tax. And

:34:57.:35:01.

individuals must be subject to the same rules. That is why the debate

:35:01.:35:05.

earlier this year by the called tycoon tax. Everybody should be

:35:05.:35:11.

expected pay a don't proportion of their income earned in this country

:35:11.:35:18.

into the revenue pockets. Do you think this will work out to be tax

:35:18.:35:23.

evasion? I think the scheme that was reported in the Times, sounds

:35:23.:35:27.

too good to be true. It is therefore extremely unlikely it is

:35:27.:35:33.

allowed by revenue rules. What Mr Hughes said was very important, on

:35:33.:35:35.

the Government employees paid through their companies. He said

:35:35.:35:40.

they weren't correctly paid. That is the point. If it is inderbgt it

:35:40.:35:45.

should be -- incorrect it should be stopped F it is legal, people

:35:45.:35:51.

should not be able and encouraged to pay their views.

:35:52.:35:57.

-- dues. I know the Times is looking into Gary Barlow, just

:35:57.:36:01.

received an honour for the Jubilee concert, do you think that should

:36:01.:36:08.

be revised if it turns out to be right? I don't think you can undone,

:36:08.:36:12.

in normal circumstances, about what has been done. There is a situation,

:36:12.:36:16.

and I can't comment on the tax arrangements of the two named

:36:16.:36:22.

people T seems we have an honours scrutiny committee that rewards

:36:22.:36:25.

people for public service. If those people aren't paying their public

:36:25.:36:29.

dues in the normal way, and trying to reduce them to nothing or almost

:36:29.:36:32.

nothing. There is a question for the honours committee in the future

:36:32.:36:37.

asking are they the sort of people we should honour. I wish this was a

:36:37.:36:42.

column in the honours' committee work that was ticked to make sure

:36:42.:36:49.

they pay taxes properly at the level people would expect.

:36:49.:36:55.

havens for free speech go, Ecuador doesn't natural low jump to the top

:36:55.:36:59.

of the list. That makes Julian Assange's choice for asylum a

:37:00.:37:05.

little more odd.'S holed up there, to avoid extradition to Sweden

:37:05.:37:15.

where he's wanted for sex all racial gaigss. Why Ecuador, --

:37:15.:37:19.

Allegation. Why Ecuador, the relationship that started with a

:37:19.:37:24.

conversation over it. Tfts perfect place for Charles Darwin to study

:37:24.:37:29.

the origin of species, it is perfect for oil spectators and

:37:29.:37:36.

banana planters. Why is Ecuador one of the best places of the called

:37:36.:37:42.

heads of freedom of expression have resided. Few irthan -- few people

:37:42.:37:46.

have access to the web. Their President, Rafael Correa, according

:37:46.:37:53.

to the a leading human rights organisation. Frequently rebukes

:37:53.:37:58.

journalists and media that criticise him. And has taken

:37:58.:38:03.

reporters to court on the ierb you auto. He has just gone to Ecuador

:38:03.:38:08.

to ask for political asylum, given that the Ecuadorian Government is

:38:08.:38:15.

not so friendly with the journalists. The lead in equatorial

:38:15.:38:20.

newspapers was fine with $40 million, and a sentence of three

:38:20.:38:25.

years to the three directors. Julian Assange isn't always picky

:38:25.:38:32.

about his friends. While hosting a show on Russia Today, widely seen

:38:32.:38:39.

as a Kremlin mouth piece. He became pally with Ecuador's public leader.

:38:39.:38:46.

TRANSLATION: It is a pleasure to meet you Julian, welcome to the

:38:46.:38:55.

club of the persecuted. Ecuador has been on a left-wing and anti-

:38:55.:39:00.

America course. Pursuing disputes with Chevron, and most importantly

:39:00.:39:06.

for Assange, expeling the American ambassador over WikiLeaks leaks

:39:06.:39:11.

allegations. There is support among the public and towards others is

:39:11.:39:16.

great. Perhaps encouraging Assange suits Ecuador's leader, and his

:39:16.:39:20.

regional ambitions. If he take as lead on this, that will put him in

:39:20.:39:25.

a very strong political position, in the whole region, the whole

:39:25.:39:31.

Latin American region. Also next year there are elections in Ecuador,

:39:31.:39:35.

that will boost his popularity. Lawyers can't think of any similar

:39:35.:39:39.

recent case, where someone's asked for political asylum in an embassy

:39:39.:39:44.

in London. Julian Assange's disappearance into

:39:44.:39:49.

this building yesterday was an act of desperation. Moated if he goes

:39:49.:39:54.

to Sweden he will be extradited from there to the United States, on

:39:54.:40:00.

charges of he is peenags naj. The chances of him making -- espionage,

:40:00.:40:04.

the chances of him making it out are slim.

:40:04.:40:10.

He would have to persuade Ecuador, the grounds of%cation, the legal

:40:10.:40:14.

grounds for asylum, and get out of this building without being

:40:14.:40:20.

arrested for jumping bail. That would be dependant on whether

:40:20.:40:26.

Ecuador would risk the diplomatic incident to arise, to have a

:40:26.:40:31.

fugutive in an ambassadoral car, I don't think the people would be

:40:31.:40:36.

prepared to cause that international incident. Perhaps

:40:36.:40:39.

Sweden, where he faces rape allegations, could protect him

:40:39.:40:46.

since the US authorities? I can't manage any circumstances where weed

:40:46.:40:51.

or any other country would give a prospective guarantee that in no

:40:51.:40:57.

way it would extradite an individual. Does that mean he's

:40:57.:41:03.

bound by an espionage title in the States. It is hard to know if they

:41:03.:41:10.

want to do that and put him on trial for espionage allegations, it

:41:10.:41:15.

is difficult to know. Will Julian Assange find himself back on the

:41:15.:41:24.

British streets? I wouldn't be surprised tomorrow if the

:41:24.:41:31.

Government don't push pressure on them. Assange is making his case

:41:31.:41:39.

again today?'S Upcalm and calm and optimistic. As the British people

:41:39.:41:43.

wait outside, even man as resourceful as Julian Assange hey

:41:43.:41:48.

be running out of actions. The Red Cross says its teams are still

:41:48.:41:52.

waiting to enter the Syrian city of Homs, where hundreds of civilians

:41:52.:41:58.

are in desperate need of help. Government forces and rebels agreed

:41:58.:42:03.

to a two-hour ceasefire because of things going through. Meanwhile in

:42:03.:42:09.

Egypt, the post-revolutionary turmoil continues. The election

:42:09.:42:11.

authorities have delayed the announcement of the winner of the

:42:11.:42:16.

presidential election, which was due tomorrow.

:42:17.:42:21.

Prince Hassan of Jordan has joined to us discuss this. Syria, does it

:42:21.:42:27.

seem to you that what we are dealing with is a revolution, or a

:42:27.:42:31.

civil war? It is a revolution at the present time, being induced by

:42:31.:42:37.

the Security Council itself. If I can be outspoken. On the one side

:42:37.:42:42.

you have Russia and China, adamant they will not see a fighting end to

:42:42.:42:52.
:42:52.:42:52.

this war. As President Vladimir Putin it, and the Mexican President,

:42:52.:42:57.

at the G20, they need a political solution, which means dialogue, and

:42:57.:43:01.

the fighting. Of course, the western countries on the other side

:43:01.:43:06.

were talking about Chapter seven and upgrading the military

:43:06.:43:10.

intention potential. If there is no movement from China, can a solution

:43:10.:43:18.

be found? The solution cannot be found. We know on the nuclear issue,

:43:18.:43:23.

nothing has moved on Iran in the Moscow talks. And on July 1st, the

:43:23.:43:30.

nuclear issue is being discussed. On July we have the situation of

:43:30.:43:35.

terror on terror, the traditional states in the gulf, supporting the

:43:35.:43:44.

Sunni against the Shia from Iran. In Iraq Syria and Lebanon they have

:43:44.:43:48.

fear of that access. And there is the basic issue of Iran, any action

:43:48.:43:55.

against Syria could bring Iran in. Should Bashar Al-Assad go, is

:43:55.:44:02.

Syria's leader the root use of it? Definitely he should go, as

:44:02.:44:07.

President Putin has made it clear. He should go as a result of the

:44:07.:44:11.

wishes of the Syrian people. As you know, the UN, and rash league,

:44:11.:44:16.

negotiator is Kofi Annan. You think he's a force for bad in that

:44:16.:44:20.

country? There is so many force force bad, if one could put it in

:44:21.:44:24.

simplistic terms. In terms of Presidents all over the world. I

:44:24.:44:28.

think the effect of his going in a vacuum could lead to that civil war

:44:28.:44:34.

you asked about initially. What you think, itst that fragmentation of

:44:34.:44:39.

the region or the country? I think of the region. Sectarian violence

:44:39.:44:44.

that would be unbelievable. One observer put it, the eurocrisis may

:44:44.:44:51.

be a disaster, but something along those lines in our region would be

:44:51.:44:55.

mayhem...Post-election, In Egypt, do you think of Egypt as being a

:44:55.:45:01.

success story of the Arab Spring? The Arab Spring grew from things

:45:01.:45:08.

that we all believed in, they are no longer runnings the show. The

:45:08.:45:15.

military have stepped in and the Islamic Muslim Brotherhood have

:45:15.:45:21.

become front runners. Was it worth it, people who were not involved in

:45:21.:45:24.

the process in the first place, are now claiming they have a right to

:45:24.:45:28.

rool. That must be something many young people are asking -- rule.

:45:28.:45:32.

That must be something everyone is asking themselves about. You knew

:45:32.:45:38.

Hosni Mubarak, we know he lies on his death bed now, for many in the

:45:38.:45:44.

west he was the acceptable face of Arab leadership in. Do you wonder

:45:44.:45:50.

about the choice that has been made and ask why tfps? I got back to the

:45:50.:45:54.

question about sad leadership, you can't in the west say so and so is

:45:54.:45:59.

good, because he's pro-western. And his own people will rise up against

:45:59.:46:07.

him and call for change, will the military step in.

:46:07.:46:17.
:46:17.:46:17.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 50 seconds

:46:17.:47:08.

That is all tonight, good evening, plenty more tonight.

:47:08.:47:18.
:47:18.:47:20.

Heavy downpours and thunderstorms across the southern half of the UK

:47:20.:47:23.

tonight. The wet weather spreads north during tomorrow. The far

:47:23.:47:27.

North West of Scotland may stay dry, elsewhere expect downpours,

:47:27.:47:31.

something brighter in the south. The sunshine may spark further

:47:32.:47:37.

heavier showers across the Midlands, even England during the afternoon.

:47:37.:47:41.

Brightness could lift the temperatures up to 20. It is cloudy

:47:41.:47:45.

in the afternoon across the south west. Thunderstorms here at the

:47:45.:47:50.

moment, they disappear and dry up. The same goes across South Wales,

:47:50.:47:56.

dryer for the time here but another spell of hot weather during the

:47:56.:48:00.

afternoon. Heavy showers in Northern Ireland and temperatures

:48:00.:48:08.

significantly lower than Wednesday. Warmer across the highlands for a

:48:08.:48:13.

time. Turning cloudy here, concentration on eastern Scotland.

:48:13.:48:18.

More wet weather to come on Friday, North Wales, North West England and

:48:18.:48:22.

Scotland. That could build up and may cause a few problems. Further

:48:22.:48:30.

Wikileaks founder Julian Assange has taken refuge in the Ecuadorian embassy in London, seeking Asylum to avoid extradition to Sweden where he faces allegations of rape and sexual assault. And the paramilitaries meting out violent punishment in Northern Ireland. Emily Maitlis presents.


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