26/06/2012 Newsnight

That tax rise, the Chancellor told us, was essential to getting the

economy back on track, it wasn't, it is not going to happen, not

necessary, apparently. The latest Budget Day backpeddling is on fuel

duty. Is this because the Government realised it couldn't get

away with it, or is it also in a bit of a panic about the figures.

Will it be health, education or defence to make up the half a

billion hole they just blew in the Government's finances.

No doubt the Treasury Minister, Chloe Smith, will be able to

enlighten us all. When the Queen visited Northern

Ireland on her silver Julilee, At the height of the Troubles, it

provoked this kind of thing. Is that generation of Republicans any

more pleased to see her now. If you got to meet the Queen, what

would you say to her? I wouldn't say anything, I wouldn't waste my

breath on her. And this. Hello citizens of the

world, we are anonymous. It is not just them, MI5 warns of

increasingly sophisticated and frequent attacks from all over

cyberspace. Who is behind it? What do they want? And how can we

protect ourselves. I'm joined by the 19-year-old who has won the

country's biggest cyber security challenge.

Our masterly, compassionate and thoughtful Chancellor of the

Exchequer has felt the pain of the British people and decided to

abandon his plans to raise the tax on fuel this summer, either that or

we are looking at the budget omnishambles number six or seven.

Last week the fuel rise was essential, this week, unnecessarily.

The minister said it would cost �1.5 billion to scrap the rise,

today the Treasury said it would cost only half a billion. Either

the Government is playing politics with the national economy, or the

economy is in such an appallingly chaotic state, it justifies panic

reactions like this. Our Economics Editor, Paul Mason, is here.

It is a good economy that whether or not this is part of a master

plan to save the British economy from doom, or it is something they

thought up this morning. We are told the cabinet met this morning

and didn't discuss any changes to the fuel duty rise. And then, at

12.30, Conservative MPs were sent something called a lines to take,

this is what MPs get sent from all parties, to tell them what to say.

They were told that the demand for the freeze, Labour's calls were

hypocrisy of the worst kind, then it came that the Government enact

add freeze on the duty. And it will cost, as they say, �550 billion to

do that. Unusually, this is not something balanced by an immediate

change in spending or tax elsewhere. It is something actually we don't

know how it will be paid for. If we were in an election we would hear

the Government being accused of an uncosted tax move. It is all to

play for. We might find out what is the situation soon. These U-turns

are coming thick and fast. To those waiting with bathed breath

for that favourite media catch phrase, "the U-turn", I have only

one thing to say, you turn if you want to! Actually, George Osborne

is for turning. Since the budget, he's U-turned on the pasty tax, the

caravan tax, the charities' tax, and today it was a planned tax on

petrol, fuel duty. I can tell people we will now stop any rise in

fuel duty this August, and freeze it for the rest of the year. This

means that fuel duty will be 10p a litre lower than plans by the last

Labour Government. The move came as Labour, the SNP and Plaid Cymru

were forcing a vote on the planned increase. It left the Shadow

Chancellor, not for the first time, performing the political equivalent

of a victory roll. We have now had a U-turn on pasties, caravans,

skips, churches, and now today a U- turn on fuel, which we welcome.

Though today's move follow as campaign by the Sun Newspaper, and

Tory backbenchers, there is more to this than populisim. Last week the

Government pumped �80 billion into the banks significant tem, and

there could be another �50 billion of money printing on the way. It

looks like there is a stimulus, and this bit, definitely is, fiscal.

The reason for that is clear, the Governor of the Bank of England

ripped up a forecast he made six months ago today, and went into his

full doomsayier act. We are in the middle of a deep crisis, with

enormous challenges to put our own banking system right, and

challenges from the rest of the world that they too are struggling

with. Sir Mervyn said he had no idea what is about to happen in the

your stkron, and predicting a return to -- in the eurozone, and

predicting a return to normality in Britain would be stab in the dark.

When they started most people, including ourselves, still didn't

believe we would be right in the middle and the thick of it five

years later. All the way through I said to this committee, I don't

think yet think we are half way through. That I have always said

that, and I'm still saying T that tells you a lot about how my

estimate how long this will go on for is expanding with time. With

the eurozone in recession, and a sense of crisis in Berlin, there is

a nightmare scenario, where the export market collapses, and the

growth slows here, and it goes off course. The tax yield this year is

lower than expected and the deficit higher already this year. Right now

George Osborne's credibility is a precious commodity. Billions upon

billions of pounds are riding on the fact that we have a Chancellor

that says what he means and means what he says. It doesn't help one

little bit for him to keep making U-turn after U-turn after U-turn on

this budget. U-turns don't seem to stop, we have had a month of them

now. Ultimately, this will undermine Osborne's credibility.

money terms, today's U-turn is bigger d in money terms, today's U-

turn is bigger than all the rest. It is �550 billion, and made up of

departmental spending cuts, education, health, who knows, it

won't be announced until November. The danger for Osborne is not

primarily that he looks weak and decisive, but on the big issue, the

deficit, he's sticking to Plan A. It is just when you launch and

cancel tax increase, at a rate of one a week, you can begin to look

incompetent. This is a followership, rather than leadership. They

basically came up with a plan, and if people didn't like it they came

up with another one. You can argue it is a great modern way of

governing with opinion polling and decision making, or you can argue

it is indecisive and undermining George Osborne's own judgment. If

he says he's going to do something, there is a lot of money now riding

on he's going to do it. Meanwhile drivers, pasty eerts, caravan

owners and chuggers unite, right now it feels like every day is

Budget Day. Chloe Smith, the Treasury Minister,

is here with us, when were you told of the change of plan? As a

minister in the Treasury, and dealing with fuel matters, this has

been under consideration for some time. When was the decision taken?

As I say, it has been under consideration for some time. When

was the decision taken? The Prime Minister and the Chancellor take

these decisions between them. were you told then? I have been

involved in this for some time. didn't take the decision, you say

the Chancellor and the Prime Minister did, when were you told?

We had a collective discussion of that in due course, and although I

can't give you the full glory details. Did you -- did it happen

today? I can't tell you the ins and the outs. Why isn't it appropriate?

You are coming here to defend a changele policy, and you can't even

tell me when you were told the change of policy was? As a minister

in the Treasury I have been involved in the discussions for

some time. As I said to you, the Prime Minister and the Chancellor

talk those decision, I can't give awe running commentry on who said

what. I'm not asking for that, I'm asking for the statement of fact of

when you were told, you were told some time today, clearly, was it

before or after lunch? I'm not going to give you a commentry on

who says what and when. I just want to know when were you told what the

change of policy was? This has been under discussion for some weeks.

And at some point during those several weeks, they communicated to

you that there had been a decision to change the policy? Indeed, and

today in front of parliament we revealed to parliament, as is right

and proper, to parliament, that we were planning to help households

and businesss in this way. Is it hard for you to defend a policy you

don't agree with? It is not that injure me nice question, I do agree

with it. You didn't in May? Go on. In May you said, it was not certain

that cutting fuel duty would have a positive effect on families or

businesses so, what's happened? think the point to be made out of

that, and out of what has then been said today, is it is important to

do what you think you can to help households and businesses in a

world we are facing, I this think your introduction pulled some of

those themes out N a world we are facing which is very hard for

households and businesses, you have to do what you can and in good

faith so, they can get the help they need in hard times. You said

it wasn't certain that cutting fuel duty would have a positive effect

on families and businesses, that was on the 23rd of May, what has

happened between then and now, the 25th of June? I don't think many

things are certain in this world. There are a lot of uncertainties

here? Families or businesses could save the money saved on the fuel

duty, there is lots of ways it could pan out for them. Why didn't

the Government only know about it yesterday? It is very important

that the Government acts on concerns it hears. As I said about

who, what and when, the Government will make its policy, and

importantly comes to parliament with it. Isn't the cost petrol in

people's cars a matter of legitimate interest to the

Transport Secretary, who didn't know yesterday? Of course it is

matter of legitimate interests to households and businesses. As you

know taxes or the Chancellor, and in this case, the Chancellor and

the Prime Minister took the decision. It is going to cost you

say now, about �550 million, in contrast with your figure on the

2rd of May, which was about �1.5 billion. You just got the sums

wrong, did you? They refer to two slightly different things. The

question being asked in May, I believe, was about a full

cancellation, and of course, as you will be aware from today, we have

been talking of deferring the cough rise to January, the two are

different -- the rise to January. The two are different. You say it

is now �550 million, can you tell us from which departments that gap

will be made up? It will be made up, it will be drawn from, and around

�500 million is the correct figure, because we are talking about a

deferral. It will be drawn from underspending in departmental

budgets. Where? There are a number of those available. We know for

example, this year, if you look at the public sector data relosed only

today, we know that under-- released only today, we know that

the rate of spending is less than the OBR was forecast. Those figures

are there today. Where? Last year there were �4 mill billion of those.

Which department will it come from? They fall across in different ways.

That figure will progress in the year. Name a few departments?

won't do, that we will give the full details soon. Are you waiting

to be told that as well? No. know do you, you know which

departments have underspent (it is not possible to give awe full

breakdown Undersuspect? It is not possible to give a fall -- under

spent? It is not possible to give a full figure there? It is not

possible at the moment to do that. Presumably you know which

departments but are choosing not to? It is an aggregate figure.

are choosing not to tell us which Government departments have

underspent? It is an aggregate figure, that is what is important.

The figure says there is enough underspend to do this. When we see

that kind of funding available, we want it for the good of households

and businesses. Can you confirm to us that the number one priority of

your Government is reducing the deficit? It is indeed. That is the

number one priority? The fact of using underspends for this, means

our plan is absolutely intact, that is rightly what we seek to use for

the credibility of our fiscal plan. Is this some sort of joke. How can

you possibly have as a number one priority cutting the deficit, when

you choose to spend and underspend in funding a tax cut o failure to

implement a tax rise, which was -- or failure to implement a tax rise,

which was on schedule? The plan overall has not changed, it remains

the departmental budgets as laid out. We are look to go uets

underspends in a way that is -- to use the underspends in a way that

is valuable, and anyone who drives a car knows that. We heard today

that Government borrowing increased by �3 billion in may? Do you want

me to answer that or are you finishing the sentence.

wondering why you didn't use the money to pay that down? The figures

on the other side of that public sector data released today, are

interesting in themselves, they relate to one-off factors,

specifically in when payments were made in May and June. That is

interesting in a different conversation. The fact is here we

are sticking to the overall plan and taking the opportunities we

have to help households and businesses. Do you ever wake up in

the morning and think, my God, what will I be told today? I wake up in

the morning and know that some of my constituents will really value

not having to pay that little bit more on fuel price, come August,

because the cost of living is pretty tight at the moment,

everybody does know. That I think this move today is valuable. It is

not just a Westminster village story, it is real money in real

people's pockets. We all understand that? Good. Do you ever think you

are incompetent? I think it is valuable to help real people in

this way, I do think that is valued by people who drive.

Thank you. Later in the programme, Paul Mason

will be back to explain why the European Prime Minister is

threatening to make Angela Merkel an offer she can't refuse. Tomorrow

the Queen will meet amicablely with Martin McGuiness, a former member

of the organisation that killed her cousin, Lord Mountbatten. The Queen

drew crowds today. It is a real testament to how things have

changed in that corner of the kingdom. Peter Taylor reported

throughout the Troubles in Northern Ireland, including a response to

the Queen that was quite different. The Queen set foot in a Northern

Ireland that was a world away from the troubled province she visited

35 years ago, on her Silver Jubilee. Back then, in 1977, I made this

controversial film about the Queen's tour, which took place

through one of the most violent periods of the conflict. In this

improving atmosphere, those with different beliefs and aspirations,

understand that if this community is to survive and prosper, they

must live and work together in friendship and forgiveness.

It was due to be shown in peak time, on the last day of her visit. Then,

ten minutes before it was due to go on air, ITV's regulators stopped

the film's transmission. It later trickled out over the network in a

late night slot. The ostensable reason for stopping

the film was a legal problem over the inflammatory words spoken by a

militant Republican, we weren't allowed to hear his voice. But I

have always believed the real reason for stopping the film, was

because its message was in direct conflict of the spin that the then

Labour Government of the day wanted to place on the visit. Ministers

wanted to present the Queen as the great healer of the division

between the two communities. Historically she was symbolic of

the division itself. I saw how the visit highlighted the

bitter empty between loyalists and republicans. There was to be no

healing here. Which don't accept a British Queen, we never will accept

a British Queen. We don't want her here at all. She is not our Queen.

The second day of the visit, just before the royal helicopter was due

to land...In 1977, security was so precare yu, that Her Majesty wasn't

allowed to spend -- precarious, that Her Majesty wasn't allowed to

spend a night in the province. She was helicoptered in, having spent a

night offshore. Cheer was was from a carefully selected crowd. While

the Queen was being welcomed at Hillsborough, the Provisional IRA

mounted a roadblock in an estate a few miles away. We were told

earlier in the day a snub to the Queen was planned. This was it,

more propaganda than military exercise. Perhaps more our benefit

or a morale booster for supporters. It lasted more than five minutes,

but within half a mile of an army post out of sight. 3,000 supporter

of the IRA hailed "Queen Elizabeth of death" down the road.

organised a march to show she had no support in this area of Belfast.

We weren't allowed in the city centre, the march was banned.

After the preliminary skirmish, battle commenced. The army snap

squad tries to outflank the rioters, but is driven back. This is the

ugly face of Ulster. This is the In 1977, the unionist politician,

John Taylor, told me the IRA was on the run. Five years earlier he had

been machine gunned by the official IRA.

How do Protestants regard the Queen's visit? They were delighted

she has come, for several years they were complaining that there

appeared to be little interest by the Royal Family and the problems

we were having in Northern Ireland. They are thrilled. It comes when

changes are taking place in Northern Ireland, and it does

appear that the IRA are in retreat. John Taylor's predictions proved

premature, two years later the IRA murdered the Queen's cousin, Lord

Mountbatten, when they blew up his boat. A bomb also killed two family

relatives and a member of the crew. The IRA followed up the attack by

killing 18 soldiers on the same day, in a double bombing at Warren Point.

It was to be almost another 20 bloody years before the IRA ended

its campaign, and Sinn Fein finally signed up to the Good Friday

Agreement. I reminded John Taylor, now Lord Killcluney, of what he

told me all those years ago. Why did you say that? Morale was under

attack, by the British majority in Northern Ireland, they had attacks

from the terrorist organisations, likewise the nationalist community

was increasing in numbers, so politically the British majority

were under attack. And there was a suspicion that the English, Tory

and Labour, could not be relied upon. So the fact that Her Majesty

was coming was great for morale amongst the British majority in

Northern Ireland. In 1977, I filmed the funeral of

Paul McWilliams, an IRA teenager who had been shot by the army. I

interviewed some of the women who had followed his coffin. We don't

regard ourselves as British subjects, we are not British

subjects. Do you think she's not a brave lady for coming to Belfast?

No, I class her any braver than I, I think I'm braver than her, I have

to live here, while the British soldiers are on about shooting

people down. No I wouldn't give her any medals for coming over to

Northern Ireland. I finally tracked down Eileen Shaw,

and replayed the interview I did with her in 1977. Have you changed

your views now, given that the Queen is about to come to Belfast

again? No. In fact it has got stronger. I'm getting older,

nothing's changed. The Queen is the figurehead of repression. Strip-

searches and the condition of iconic republican prisoners like

Marian Price, are among the issues that fuel dissidents' anger. If you

got to meet the Queen what would you say to her? I wouldn't waste my

breath on her. The arrival of the Queen and her

Silver Jubilee visit, was cause for great celebrations in the back

streets of the loyalist Shankill road. I have watched every news

bulletin, read all the papers, we are proud to be British and proud

to have her as our Queen. Helen Greg died some time ago, I visited

the Shankill women's centre to see if royal fervour was as strong as

ever. When I showed them the film, it was no surprised that it proved

undiminished. But, unable to get one of the

10,000 free tickets for the royal garden party tomorrow, they had at

least won a cow in a charity competition, and will decorate it

in Jubilee colours. I just love the Queen. I love all the Royal Family.

I'm glad to see she's coming here. But will will loyalist war drums

fall silent when Martin McGuiness shakes the hand of the Queen

tomorrow. I would be very pleased to see him do that. It would mean

the world to me, so it would. It would mean the world to a lot of

people. Because the IRA murdered her cousin, Lord Mountbatten,

shaking hands may be difficult for the Queen too. Yes, I think it

would be a major ask on the Queen's part as well. And this is maybe

massive one for the Queen to take. But it will certainly send out a

strong and clear message to the people of Northern Ireland. But the

Queen would shake his hand, I have no doubt whatsoever. Because of the

lady that she is, she will do this. Today, the dark clouds of 1977 seem

a million miles away. Private Harrison was the 270th soldier to

die in Northern Ireland. Another 233 were to follow, before peace

finally came. When Martin McGuiness shakes the Queen's hand tomorrow,

it will be a historic event of enormous significance for both

communities. Do you hope Mr McGuiness shakes Her Majesty's

hand? I would hope so. I have never shaken his hand, I'm a politician,

and I feel more hesitant about shaking the hands of IRA people,

especially since I got ten bullets through my head at one time. Do you

think Martin McGuiness should shake the Queen's hand? As a republican I

have no objections in Martin McGuiness, as a joint First

Minister, he also has to remember he's representing all of the

community, and not just our republicanism.

But, not all sections of the republican community are prepared

to welcome the Queen. Last Saturday, dissidents made it abundantly clear

that the Queen was an unwelcome foreign visitor.

If Martin McGuiness were to meet the Queen, and shake her hand, what

would your reaction be? My reaction would be Martin, wake up and smell

the coffee, you're telling us your republican, you told those lads

years and years ago, you don't recognise the court, you don't

recognise the Queen, and a lot of people dead, young lads, mothers

sitting like me, probably, sitting crying thinking about their

children, and he's going to shake the hand of the woman who put them

there. On his head be it, if he calls himself a republican, God

help Ireland. The attitude of many republicans towards the Queen began

to change when she visited Dublin last year. And laid a wreath at the

memorial to those who died fighting for Irish independence. What I

actually was impressed at her going to the Garden of Remembrance, in

that circumstance, it did have a healing effect, unlike, in complete

contrast to 1977, where it was viewed as triumphalist, and we were

still being driven into the ground. I look forward to the day when we

may return to enjoy, with the people of Northern Ireland, some of

the better and happier times, so long awaited, and so richly

deserved. When Martin McGuiness shakes the

Queen's hand tomorrow, it may suggest that day has finally come.

To explore the significance of this meeting are the author and film

maker, Kevin Toulise, who has written one of the most detailed

accounts of the IRA. And joined by former prisoner and hunger striker

Tommy Mckeany. What harm is there in a handshake? Ultimately you

could say there is no harm in it. But it is political theatre, and a

symbolism that has little meaning overall. And ultimately, I think

what is happening here is this is displaysing the need for real

politics in Northern Ireland, to examine the real issues that are

dividing us. The lack of employment, the coming of austerity that has

been produced by London. Those are the real issues that need to be

addressed, that will ultimately bring this community together. This

type of gesture politics, we have had 10, 15 years of gesture,

symbolism, we are weighed down with symbolism. What we need now is real

politics, we need to be mature enough to sit down and look at what

is happening. Instead of being presented with one more gesture,

this type of theatrical operation that is going to take place

tomorrow, that won't really address the issues in the slightest. Why is

he doing this tomorrow? I think it is a good question. You have to

think of what are the republicans seeking to get out of it. I think

it is part of their political strategy geared towards the sou.

They want to represent themselves, not as the churlish, childish

protest, who protested against the Queen last year, but as a future,

potential Government. A mature statesmanlike party. Doesn't it

recognise the institutionalising of the border? I think you have to

remember that republicans would move to the right, to the left,

they would sup with the devil himself, if they thought that was a

means of getting the Brits out of Ireland. And in this case, Martin

McGuiness is perfectly prepared to shake the hand of the living symbol

of all that he has opposed in his life. They are still intent on

coming to power in Ireland. What do you make of that, as an approach?

mean, I can see some logic in what Kevin is saying, it is quite

possible that this is really viewed by Sinn Fein as something that will

enhance their position in the Republic of Ireland. It would be

doing at the cost, I would argue, to progress here in Northern

Ireland. That's ultimately that there is a serious question mark

hanging over the validity and value of this meeting which is what is

ultimately the institution that is the British monarchy. An

institution that is redolent of hereditary power and privilege, not

something that will address the problems we are faced with. The

whole idea of the Monarch coming here, in terms of the unqualified

support, for example, that the monarchy heralds for the British

military establishment, with all the destructiveness that brings

internationally not just in Ireland. It is a means to answered, he

saying, a means to answered, that's all? I don't believe it is a means

to an end. I think there are certain flaws in the reading of

this situation, that it undermines what is a very legitimate

republican position, a democratic republican position. Not just an

Irish republican position, but republicans internationally have a

grave ves vaigs s about -- grave reservations about the hereditary

monarchy. That is another point and can be argued over any country on

earth. But in this particular context of Irish republicanism,

where do you judge majority opinion lies? In terms of the south, or?

terms of the north? I think really that Sinn Fein have almost mined

out the north. They have won as much political support as they are

likely to achieve, and their depol is the south. Gerry Adams is --

their goal is the south. Gerry Adams is a rising political figure,

they have moved very quickly in terms of number two in polls of the

political parties. The plan, really, is that in 2016, the 100th

anniversary of the Easter Rising, a man will come down the steps of the

GPO, he will stand on the steps and read the Easter proclamation, and

Gerry Adams want s to be that man. He will be the leader of 26

counties and not 32? He will be the party in the north as well. It is a

way of dissolving the border. If he can't change the constitution by

bombs and bullets, or change the political process in Ireland, it

will be through this device. I don't think anyone should fool

themselves that the goal of Sinn Fein, Gerry Adams and Martin

McGuiness s to get a united Ireland, by hook or by crook, and get the

Brits out. That is what they are there for. That is your objective

too, isn't it? It is my objective, but it is also a democratic and

socialist Republic is my objective. My concern with Sinn Fein and the

Republic is, is they are moving towards the centre. That their

politics will no longer be able to address the very real issues that

are facing us. The issues I referred to at the outset. The real

issues relating to Ireland are not relating to the monarchy and the

royals, it is to the financial disaster coming to us, not just in

Ireland, but right across Europe. Those are issues that will get

worse and worse, we have to have an answer to that. Not through this

type of symbolism, and Sinn Fein's move to the centre, Sinn Fein's

move possibly to the right, will not bring with it the message and

the means to address those issues, and Sinn Fein may not actually move

in that position that Kevin is outlining. What Kevin is outlining

is very close to the argument being made within Sinn Fein for moving in

the direction that they are moving now. I think time will prove that

this is a mistake. Thank you very much indeed.

Now, if there ever was a time when MI5 officers wore trenchcoats and

brimed hats, it is long gone. The head of the agency has disclosed

that businesses in this country are under sustained attack by cyber

warriors, it is investigating attack ones large companies, who

the companies are he didn't say nor the companies behind them. It is

computer maths and algorithms are much more use now than dead

letterboxes and invisible ink. The group that calls itself Anonymous,

claims "credit", if that is the word, for attacks on the systems in

the Vatican, Interpol and the Chinese Government, and earlier

this year, the Home Office. Butt the real scale of cybercrime is

much more extensive and shadowy. From credit card fraud to loss of

business, the cost of tacking is enormous. �800 million for just one

firm, according to the MI5 boss. Evidence of state-sponsored hacking

for political purposes is growing. The computer virus, Stucksnet is

now the to have been cooked up by the US or Israeli states, to

undermine the Iranian systems. Whatever they did is open up panned

Dora's box, they allowed the tacking community and others to

peer into a world of developing cyber weapons. How to tackle it,

the British head of cyber-security said the answer lies in getting

cybersophisticates to work for the good eulogise. GCHQs is one of the

sponsors of a yearly competition to encourage cyber-talent. In the face

of daily takes on Government systems, could that be enough.

19-year-old Jonathan won this year's cyber-security competition.

James is a veteran of cyber-defence and in Edinburgh we have our guest

with lofts contact with our anonymous hackers, in the course of

writing book on the subject. Let's analyse what the problem is?

have three major areas, firstly, massive number of new computer

viruses out there, designed to steal money from the public,

listeners of this show. Secondly, a rise in be habgtvavisim, breaking

into system, brandishing with tags and raising awareness. Thirdly, the

increasing sack racial of state- sponsored malware attacks to steal

military secrets or other information. You believe all three

are these are real threats? three of these are very real

threats. In terms of national security? Absolutely. The grandma

jort lie in the first category -- grand majority lie in the first

category, all about stealing money. How might a cyber-attack work?

There is lots of ways. The most common is you would visit a website

on your computer, because you are not patched and up-to-date, in the

background the guys in the background are able to load a vie

Russian without your permission, they will have a camera looking at

what is going on, if you access your bank they will be able to get

on and do that. If you have links with the group Anonymous, let's not

get into the details of what they are said or said not to have done.

What is the motivation for a group like that? There is a wide range of

motivations. For one thing it isn't strictly a group, it is more of a

process, and a culture of people, and an ever-shifting crowd of

people on-line. You have people people, if you were going to divide

it into two catches, there are people who want to disrupt on-line

data for fun and pranks. And those with a more sociopolitical activist

message. One thing I would say is one of the reasons we are seeing a

growth in this kind of if he Nomura, is the art of hacking and

distrupting on-line data is becoming -- disrupting on lion data

is becoming easier. You have web tools freely available on-line,

that anyone can download, that automate a cyber attack. The people

part of Anonymous, are not superskilled hackers, but people

who have grown up in internet culture, they are internet savvy,

they understand how to get things done through social networks. This

is one reason why traditional institutions like MI5, and other

authorities, find it really hard to wrap their heads round how these

guys work. As well as what they are doing effectively on-line, they are

organising themselves so quickly and so openly. One can understand,

I think, from the point of view of a subversive young person, the

thrill of trying to get into something, where is the thrill in

trying to stop somebody doing that? Well, I would say that to properly

be able to defend a system from being subverted, you very much need

to understand in what ways it is going to be subverted. Which means

that you need to look at the system that is you are trying to defend,

and try to think, what line of attack would I take would, that

work. It is not hacking, as such, as it is not actually, it is

obviously not breaking anybody else's system. It is looking into

your own, and very much focusing on patching up the holes. It is

equally rewarding, because you are still, essentially, looking at it,

finding the challenge and trying to break things. You obviously don't

face the risk of going to jail? That is a major bonus. In other

words, you are not -- on the other hand you are not as school as the

hacker? Arguably, but if you are not in jail, you are a step ahead

of them! There is a lot of people in the security industry, that I

talk to, who got into security through very ease sow terrik roots,

not as direct as Jonathan has had the opportunity. They have these

altruistic motivations, want to go stop their friends and family being

hacked on-line. It is an interesting vein going through T

but applying the skills without going to jail is a big perk.

Let's explore the question, the head of MI5 was talking about how

you go about acquiring an army of cyberwarriors to defend yourself,

where do you find them? That is the huge challenge, organisations

aren't finding them through the direct hiring roots. It is finding

people with a certain way of thinking, it is not about a certain

set of qualifications you can look up on a CV. You have to go to

different forums and exchanges. Looking at different technologies

we were talking about, and pose challenges that appeal to their

intellect. Jonathan didn't know he wanted to be in cyber-security, we

had to find a way of getting him interested without him coming to us.

What is your thought about where you find this army of cyber-

sophisticated, who are capable of withstanding the risk posed either

by criminal organisations or indeed foreign Governments? I think they

are everywhere. They will be mostly young people. We're looking at a

generation now that are growing up with the Internet. People who have

known it all their lives. Many, many more young people know how to

programme and code. I think it is a matter of going on-line to find

them. Going to different forums. One of the reasons why many people

find Anonymous attractive, is people who tend to be most

passionate about it tend to be drifting a little bit. They find it

community and purpose, they latch on to it. That is very attractive

for people. If something like that can be offered as well as engagment,

it is a matter of attracting these people in that way. What do you

make of it? I very much would say that you do need to find the

alternative roots through the cyber-security challenge. Really

attract them through ways that very much engage them. Much more than,

as James was saying, looking for the qualifications so much. It is

very much about the apt tued, looking for a way of -- aptitude,

looking for a way of thinking. sense of belonging? You don't need

to be in illegal group to long. There is the good and bad, and you

belong to one of the sides. It is not just, there is not only one way

of belonging. Thank you all very much.

Before we look at tomorrow's front pages. There are some alarming

briefings coming from Rome in the run up to the crucial European

Summit. Paul Mason has come back. Jeremy, it has been one of those

interesting days in the non- resolution of the eurocrisis. The

first thing that happened is Mr Von Rumpuy, decided to publish the

summit, with the fiscal and the political European eventually, the

whole -- political union, eventually the whole of the groups

getting together. Mrs Merkel chose to make a speech to one of their

political parties, which said there would be no pooling of debt, namely

eurobonds, as long as she is alive. It prompted a shout from from the

audience, "long may you live", at Mrs Merkel. The Italian Prime

Minister, appointed, you remember, last year, in a great technocratic

coup against Italy and Greece, it looks like he's on his last legs.

He can't come home in the summer without some resolution. He lickly

renounced the bogs of the German -- publicly renounced the boss of the

Germany bank. Silvio Berlusconi, the former Prime Minister, is

getting ready to move against Mr Monti, the technocrat, unless

something happens. So we have got a day-and-a-half until the summit,

and then something better happen. Thank you very much.

Tomorrow morning's front pages. Most going with George Osborne's

latest U-turn. This time on the That's all from Newsnight tonight,

I will leave you with the spectacle of the daily constitutional taken

by the 5,000 ducks longing to Mr Hong Minshun, from Taishou, we

break all four of our self-imposed rules for film clicks at the end of

the broke, no animals, no events that didn't happen today, no

A really warm and humid night, I really haven't seen many of those

this summer. Outbreaks of rain across Northern Ireland, northern

England and zone Scotland for a good part of the day. Further south

grey and mist year, brightening up, any sunshine across the midlands

and eastern England could striinger heavy and thundery showers. --

trigger heavy and thundery showers. Temperatures could get into the low

20s. Around the coast of south-west England it could stay dull and

misty, temperatures will struggle. Inland across Wales t should

brighten up and feel humid. Temperatures stuck at 13 or 14 on

the west coast if it turns dull and misty. A wet start in Northern

Ireland, dryer and brighter here in the afternoon. Cloudy with

outbreaks of rain across the day. The Highlands turning dryer. More

rain across southern Scotland and Northern Ireland on Thursday. That

is cause for concern. The rain building up over the next couple of

days. Further south, well it will be warm and humid, particularly