25/06/2012 Newsnight


Jeremy Paxman with a Newsnight special: with the Eurozone heading for chaos or else ever closer union, is it still a club we want to be part of?

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We've been droning on about the euro crisis for weeks now. The


underlying assumption is that it is someone else's problem and we are


well out of it. But the attempts to find a solution raise questions


which affect us all. Should we be in or out? More involved or less?


We have a studio audience here. It is nearly 40 years since this


country decide it had could no longer remain a sceppered isle. We


joined a common market and now find ourselves part of a European Union.


If the eurozone needs a form of political union to save the kurn


tri, what will the politicians tell them? What does it say about us as


a nation. Are we depifrn or just deluded. We will try and get to the


Cyprus became the fifth eurozone state to stick its hand out and ask


for financial help today. How lucky Britain is to have decide today


stay out of the single currency you may say. Yet the British position


is we want the euro to survive, jobs and prosperity here depend on


T for that to happen it is increasingly recognised that there


will have to be greater central control of taxes and spending and


that looks to demand greater central political union from which


of course we should be excluded. Our relationship with Europe is a


huge issue on which the political class of this country seems adrift


from the people. In a minute Paddy Ashdown, Peter Hain, David Davies


and Nigel Farage, but first David Grossman.


Things are changing so fast in Europe right now that even by the


time these passengers arrive in Brussels or Paris, there's no great


certainty what sort of continent will await them. There's so many


different possible scenarios, will the euro still exist at all as a


currency? The wonders of foreign travel and


the invention of things like the Eurostar mean we have never been


better connected to the whole of the European mainland. At the same


time though, the complications going on in the eurozone mean we


have never been more politically detached from the whole European


project. The question is where is that project heading next and does


Britain want to be on board. In a perverse way I think it is a


great opportunity for Britain to actually look at our relationship


with Europe. We have been part of an institution which is incredibly


bureaucratic. It's made it difficult for us to be flexible and


to have the ability to do the things which our economy needs.


Pickly -- particularly in the economic crisis. We need to be


focusing on deregulating our economy. That is difficult when


Europe is moving in the opposite direction. Of course it would be


great to have all of the benefits of EU membership without having to


stump up for any of the cost. But say observers of matters EU, why


would our partners allow us on the train unless we are prepared to pay


for a ticket. Britain has always wanted the same thing, we want a


loose free trade arrangement. We don't like the high costs of red


tape. We don't like sending huge amounts of money to French farmers.


We have always wanted the same things. The problem is, that is not


how it works. Europe is a grand bargain. You get the free trade


membership of the single market in return for countries that are not


keen on free trade like France, getting other things for them too.


They want the rules and regulations to guarantee it isn't a race to the


bottom on standards. Last year David Cameron suggested that


Britain could use the eurozone crisis to force Brussels to give us


back some sovereignty. Treaty change can only happen if it is


agreed by all 27 member states of the European Union and any treaty


change, as the last treaty change did, is an opportunity for Britain


to vans our ntional interest. strategy wasn't exactly a


resounding success when Britain refused to sign the new fiscal


compact, the other member states went ahead any way. If you try and


seize the opportunity of others misfortune and when the others are


trying to redraft the treaties to sort out the eurozone crisis and


then we say you can't have your new treaty unless you give us AB and C,


opting out of social policy or whatever, that wouldn't go down


well. We would have no friends or allies in doing that. People would


tell us to go away. Then of course there is the small matter of what


sort of Europe the voters want. They seem less and less happy these


days to leave the driving to their political masters. We will discuss


whether we should have a referendum in a while, but first here with our


studio audience are four people with very different visions of our


future relationship with Europe. The leader of the UK Independence


Party Nigel Farage, David Davies from the Tory Party, and was


previously a Minister for Europe. Peter Hain former Labour cabinet


minister and Minister for Europe as well. Former leader of the Liberal


Democrats lord Paddy Ashdown. David Davies, how important is it


that at a time like this we try to redefine our relationship with


Europe?. It's It's going to become very important. The only way out of


the problem with the eurozone will be more federalism for some of the


European Union members, and more centralisation. We won't want that.


That will be something we have never sibbed up to -- signed up to


and we have to start deciding what we do want. This is a big moment.


very big moment. You would share that view I imagine Paddy Ashdown?


Absolutely. Welcome to the question of referendum shortly. You also


believe, therefore, that this country has to decide whether it is


in or out long-term? Not now. No. I think the deal that's there on the


table - by the way I was the first politician to say 15 years ago if


there was to be a substantial move of powers to the EU that that ought


to be the subject of a referendum. That is right. Let me see if we can


identify this. 3.5 million jobs now depend on trade with Europe. Our


major partners. Probably reduce the trade annually with a European


Union, 40% of our trade, 2% with China, down to family basis. The


important thing is that we make sure we do the right thing to


ensure the EU survives. I agree with David Davies, that means


deepening the institutions of Europe. At this stage, Britain


cannot go along with that process. How we say we want to stand aside


from the process at the moment is absolute lie crucial. We will


explore that in a moment. Peter Hain, if Paddy Ashdown is right and


there may be a mechanism for saving the euro, it is something that we


want to see succeed isn't it? want to see the euro succeed. 40%


of our trade is with the eurozone countries. Over half our trade is


with the EU as a whole. We have to remind ourselves while we are in


Europe. Why I voted yes in 1975. Because Europe has saved this


continent, which we are part of, although an island off it, from war,


and conflict of a kind which didn't visit any other part of the world.


There would be war in Western Europe without the EU? I am saying


it helped cement peace and prosperity after the second Second


World War. When Paddy was a special representive in Bosnia or shortly


before that, Croatia was at war and now it is actually establishing


democratic procedures because of the EU. Let's not forget the big


prize and prosperity it's brought to everybody. Having said that, the


eurozone... Greece. Spain, it is a disaster zone economically.


Uncompetitive with job regulations, environmental standards. Destroying


jobs in Britain. If you think the eurozone with total unemployment at


23% is a success, I would hate to see what failure is. I am not


saying it is a success. I am saying the EU has brought the whole of


Europe prosperity. The eurozone was designed on an entirely faulty


basis. From the beginning. I voted against the ma trict treaty. --


Maastricht Treaty. The idea that we would get out of Europe and not any


more have access to emergency health care. This is silly. These


arguments we are hearing tonight are 40 years out of date. The idea


that we have to be part of a political union in order to buy and


sell goods with French and German and Italian companies is an idea


that belongs back in the '60s. We have been through global trade


liberalisation through the World Trade Organisation and you should


remember Paddy that we are the biggest export market for the EU in


the world. They sell us far more than we sell them. If you think 3.5


million jobs are dependent on our trade with Europe, there are 6


million jobs in Europe dependent on their trade with us. Just to bring


in the audience. I do wish the politicians read their history


books. Prior to 1914, 40% of the English trade was done with Germany.


It didn't stop at war. The idea that you can, that will not going


to war with people you do trade with is ridiculous. No-one is


suggesting that. Who feels them self to be a


European? Puts your hands up. Why haven't you put your hand up?


don't feel. I feel I am an Englishman and then a Briton second.


European third perhaps? Possibly but very vaguely. The issue for me


is I don't see why we can't trade with these countries, why we have


to take part and be part of a growing federal super state, it's


beyond me. I agree. I believe political and


economyically we will always be tied to other countries but I feel


the relationship of the ear ozone is too close. Let's have someone


from here. Who feels it is a key moment in our relationship with


Europe, because something is going on in Europe at the end, if it


doesn't go away we are going to be in a dit of difficulty. It is a key


moment for us at the moment. If we go towards more central powers and


financial services go into Europe, we are in a horrible situation. If


we leave and rely on our World Trade Organisation, we could be hit


with trade tariffs. We are in a key position now to negotiate. Leaving


wouldn't settle anything would it? If we leave, trade organisation


would be our only sort of meshing nism to trade. The European Union


has 63 trade deals, Mexico has a free trade deal with the EU. Are


you telling me their biggest export market wouldn't have that deal.


you are going to consign us to the position of Norway, outside or


Switzerland... Make our own trade deals... Norway has had to enact


75% of European legislation to remain a trader in the single


market. Completely wrong. Out of Europe but run by Europe, that is


what you are proposing. Let me give you an argument for the future. I


dare say it isn't popular but it is true. The position of Europe has


now now funed amountally changed. - - Fundamentally changed. We have a


Russian President, prepared to use tanks, you have a rising China and


rising India. If Europe doesn't realise the right reaction for the


new circumstances is to deepen the institution of our defence, foreign


affairs and economy, we are bloody fools. Get rid of our democracy!


Let me say this to you. If you do not realise, if you really want to


consign all the countries of Europe to the perfect sovereignty of corks


floating around other people's ocean liners help yourself but in


the world you are about to come into, getting together with our


European partners, and pooling our sofr at this is the way we give


ourselves a powerful voice in a world that is going to be more


turbulent. Why shouldn't we leave? We should renegotiate our position.


Let me take one point. Paddy has a point that we want to maintain a


trading relationship with Europe. I don't accept the price is the one


he puts up. We should have a relationship which allows us to


trade with them, which has co- operation agreements but not


subordination. They should be co- operation arrangements. What should


we renegotiate with Europe? It is the whole package. The whole thing?


The whole package. In a In effect, Merkel has told us something


already. They see they are going down a route that does not suit us.


They know that and they are going to have to come to a new


relationship. What it will be is a very difficult guess. If they don't


should we leave? There's no reason why all the other countries are


going to say we will give you what you want and you can have exactly


the free trade arrangements you want but you don't have to make any


of the rules or be part of all of that. It doesn't seem to me to be


practical common sense. Are you in favour of renegotiating our our


arrangement with Europe? It is important we learn from Greece, and


everyone is properly in the EU or out of it. When one member state,


when its financials or goes bankrupt, there are serious


ramifications for the other members so we are either all in together or


half out. There is a halfway house and we are in it, we are not in the


euro but in the European Union. Your point is? There is no halfway


house. There are 60 halfway houses. 60 trade deals. If we separate


trade and politician, we can have a trade relationship without being


members of the political union. are the people pretty much in a


sticky dilemma, the main threat to our sofr at this is hardly other


nations, it is large multi- nationals who can dictate to us our


fiscal policies otherwise they will go somewhere else. The alternative


to that is ganging up with the EU and wider and that we know is


fairly undemocratic. That we know is very much captured by the same


sector. But some kind of change is our only hope against something


like debt servitude. I was going to say that all the


conversations so far has been control, about trade, but you asked


the question earlier who feels like a European. To me the EU project is


more about binding, breaking down barriers, taking away traditional


hostilities, to me a large reason to be part of it and to remain part


of it and to strengthen and deepen the relationship is things like the


experience of my son, who has graduated from the University of


Geneva. That wouldn't have been possible for me at my time when I


was at university. I am talking about a situation in which across


Europe, including some countries not in the EU, we have seen a


tendency for countries to come together and break down barriers.


Actually the north and south are breaking away and being very rude


about each other. Do you feel this is a democratic institution? Do you


feel you have a say over how it behaves? No. Does anybody?


Absolutely not? This is a specifically selected audience to


represent public opinion. Does anyone feel they have control of


the EU or their views are represented? It is a false die cot


We elect politicians to represent us and we have politicians in


Britain and politicians in Europe who do that. Were I to show you a


picture of a European politician or Mr Barrossi, would you know him, du


know him? Not at all. One or two people do know him. You can't


remove them. I wonder if you put every member of the cabinet up


there would people know. He hasn't been voted for and we can't remove


him. This is a debate, not a shouting match. It is accepted that


the democratic democratic institutions of Europe need


reforming, so do they at Westminster. The fact that the


democracies in these institutions is not up to the standards we would


wish to see is not a reason for abandoning them. The American state,


United States has now agreed to begin trade negotiations with the


EU. Our two primary trading partners. Nigel wants us not to be


at the table at all. A third of the population of the globe who offered


us seven years ago a free trade deal... Be serious Nigel.


European Union is on our doorstep. You have never worked in the real


world but most of our business is done on telephones.


I am with Lord Ashdown about the earlier arguments about the peace,


prosperity and stability that Europe has brought. Certainly the


recent history of Europe in terms of Yugoslavia, the fragmentation,


the nationalisms and hatred, that was indicative of what happens when


nations... Are forced together against their will... The point is


the issue about integration surely is is about stability, acceptance


of respect for human rights and Rule of Law and the Copenhagen cry


tear ya. The countries that came from the former Eastern bloc to


escape Soviet totalitarianism, which has been corrupted by the way


the political class has characterised it... Suppose the


members of the eurozone do manage to save their currency by going to


a fiscal union, taxing union and political decision-making union,


would it it still be an organisation worth belonging to?


think it would be. I think it is important at the centre. What seems


likely is we are seen as a serious power in Europe, when we negotiate


with the eurozone we get the best deal for Britain, instead of


exercising vetoes which the Prime Minister did.


We would have no say in that central core. We could have


influence in it. I don't any anybody in Britain wants to join


the eurozone. I think some people do. Tony Blair seemed to be saying


we should think about it. What I think I do say and what separates


me from Nigel and David is this: if it becomes in Britain's interests


to join the euro in the future, I think we should do so. They think


they wouldn't want to. They are not going to want to join the euro if


it is not in our interests. If it was in Britain's to join the euro,


would you join it. The euro is headed for a disaster. We should


never give up control of our own economy. It's becoming increasingly


widely accepted in euroland that for the currency to work there will


have to be an integration of taxes. That implies an integration of


politics and political institutions. The government has promised a frism


if there is any significant transfer of power to Europe. It is


time to hear again from David If you are a British voter under 55,


you may have noticed you have never been given a direct say in our


membership of the EU. You can judge how far attitudes have shifted


since 1975 by looking at how newspapers that are now hostile to


the EU then welcomed the yes vote. The yes vote that even Margaret


Thatcher campaigned for. Unlike some countries who see the EU is


bringing about a new age of freedom and democracy, Britain has has


always been more hot head headed. We were going to make a better


living for ourselves S now that living has been thrown into doubt


by the eurozone crisis, well, many in Britain believe that British


voters should be given a say on what sort of future Europe has.


I speak as someone who will make a business defence of the single


market and EU membership. I used to work in Brussels for five years and


I watched them lose the referendums on the institution and then turn it


into a new treaty to avoid further referendums, and that was an anti-


democratic act. If someone says to me Europe basically isn't a very


democratic project, I am afraid I have to agree with you. I


completely understand why there is a real desire to let the people in


on this process, because it is felt like a conspiracy of the elite and


that at the moment is in desperate shape. I completely understand that.


I have my own moment to think we should do this and have a


referendum. The big question with a referendum is what would the big


referendum question be, what would the public be asked. There are no


specific specific treaty changes under discussion now. This is the


political difficulty which David Cameron is facing at the moment,


deciding what that question might be. The public are fretty clear


they do -- pretty clear they do want a referendum, whether you


frame it in terms of in or out is the question.


In an ideal world, the simplest way of doing it would be a radical


renegotiation which takes us back to something which is more akin to


simply a free trade relationship. The difficulty you have there is


getting the rest of Europe to agree to that. I think at the moment it


is looking increasingly unlikely that we would get what we want in


that renegotiation. What terrifies the politicians is


however they try to contain anti-EU sentiment, and channel it into a


safe sort of referendum, it will end up as a de facto in out


referendum. And Britain could end up out of the EU and none of the


main party leaders right now wants to risk that. Let's be clear, there


aren't safer options. Almost any referendum you do offer, will be an


in or out referendum. Despite many uncertainties over the form the


referendum will take, what the negotiated terms will amount to,


the campaign has already started. That is just as true today. The


background campaigning on the referendum we may or may not get is


already going on. The The politics is moving in one direction only.


All the parties under increasing pressure to commit to that


referendum in their next manifestoes. None wants to be the


last to agree. Our panel and audience are still


here. Just as a matter of interest among the audience here, how many


people would like to see a referendum sometime when we can


frame the question in the next few weeks or months? You in the green


shirt, have you nothing interesting to say on the referendum? I have,


we already had a referendum, I voted, there was two million for


and one million again. There are 32 million of us I didn't vote, I was


11. The question was about a common market not a European Union. Which


is why mar threat Thatcher made it so large that it wasn't possible to


work very efficiently. There is an overwhelming majority who do want


some sort of say on the subject. Is that what you are going to say.


point I am going to make is the fact that I, too, voted for it, but


I voted purely and simply for trade. I didn't vote for a political union,


I didn't vote for this country to lose its sovereignty. I didn't vote


for the amount of money which the EU is costing us and quite clearly


I do agree with Nigel Farage's that I have watched on U tube. Thank


you! I think if the European project is


to succeed, it has to take the people with it. The people in


Europe in France and Germany are getting more and more anti-EU


projects because it's seen what it is costing them. Furthermore, you


cannot just wipe away 1,000 years of history in all these countries.


They speak different languages, they have different cultures. It is


not a question of trade and human resources and silly rules coming


over from Brussels. It is a lot more than that, that involves the


entire population. The lady is right. It is a point we didn't


cover. You have 27 different views of what you want out of Europe. We


talk about democracy when the Greeks came in, it was after the


colonels. When the Spanish came in, it was after Franco. We came in


with a fully formed democracy. Paddy doesn't like it, but it is a


fully formed working democracy. Nothing like the EU. We have


something to lose in this, which others perhaps didn't have. So you


are in favour of a referendum. Absolutely. In out referendum?


have to have the negotiation first and yes when it comes down to it,


it probably does have to be an in and out referendum, once people


have seen what the New Deal is, but you have to have a new deal first.


Before we get to referendums. There are some things we will lose. But


there are sings we will gain as well. This is going to be a very,


very, very turbulent, bloody decades ahead of it. There is


nothing I would like the British people to have that we cannot get


better than work being our parters and the mechanism for doing that is


the EU and if we abandon that, and commit ourselves to the perfect


sovereignty of small small nations drifting around, our capacity to


have the voice to be able to deliver the security I want for the


British people will be massively diminished. We are living in an age


where what needs to be done cannot be done by national governments


alone. I agree with the lady here, I think a referendum on Europe is


now in or out referendum, is unstoppable. I think secondly,


although I shall be... How far off do you think it might be? I think


we will have to see the result of these negotiations. Then we have to


see whether or not that shifts power to Europe from Britain. If it


doesn't we will have to decide whether or not Britain is


advantaged for disadvantaged by that. In the end what it comes down


to is an in our out referendum. I have to say I think think those who


argue the case are going to find it very, very difficult to win a yes


vote. Surely the question on the ballot paper should be do you want


to be ruled by Berlin. We have to look at the future and


Nigel taking over this discussion and changing the rhetoric out there,


the British population is being influenced by this minority against


Europe. What we are arguing is there is no European demos. Even


the introduction tonight said is Britain being silly and deluded.


This argument is happening all over Europe. We want a Europe of trade


and co-operation, not one that costs us a fortune. Not one whose


courts overrule ours. On the referendum specifically, I think a


referendum is almost inevitable. If people want a referendum,


politicians should not deny them one, but this is going to be a big


big decision. It shouldn't be now because Europe is in crisis. If you


suddenly put... Don't know what you are voting on now. You could


emergency the chaos -- imagine the chaos. We have to see where we get


to as a result of this crisis. I am not frightened of a referendum. I


don't think the Labour Party should be frightened of one. If people


want a referendum, they will get one. We were the party who gave


people a vote in 1975, the Tories having taken us in without one. We


will give people a vote if that is what they want. When do you suggest


this referendum would be run. Lord Ashdown said maybe we have two or


three decades of turmoil. No I didn't say that. Are you suggesting


that we wait until calm waters and then decide whether we want to be


in or out. I agreed with David Davies, when the negotiations are


finished, we see what the balance of powers are. If this country is


going to be disadvantaged by that, then a referendum... On a point of


clarification, is it possible that Britain could be significantly


disadvantaged, a shift of power, which was not actually a passing of


a power from our parliament to a European institution but was


disadvantaged by the existence, creation of some political union


that involves the other members of the euro. It is possible. That


could trigger a referendum? If this country believes because of the new


arrangements for Europe, we believe that there is a danger that will be


disadvantaged, that may be the circumstances in which a referendum


needs to be. That shouldn't be a ministerial judgment. Who is going


to decide, The Sun newspaper? The government is made to decide.


should be a referendum either way, whatever the outcome of the


negotiation, there should be a referendum, because we are already


in a transform circumstance. We are already -- Paddy may not have said


it. Do you trust David Cameron and Nick Clegg to make that judgment?


Any nition in power is -- politician is power is going to


have to make the call in favour of a referendum. Do you trust them to


make an adequate call? I think they will.


The danger is what we get is not a referendum. The political class


will play the truck on us -- trick of us, they will say you can have a


trade deal with Europe, and they will ask us to vote yes to stay


part of a single market. That is my big fear with us. Let's have a


proper in, out referendum. I hope the government gets the best deal


for Britain. What I fear is we will have a government which turns its


back on the negotiations and says we are just walking away. Then they


go and do a deal like they are doing on financial transactions tax


which may be prejudicial to Britain's interests and in this


case our finance. We have to be right at the centre. This is about


power and whether Britain is serious about being with our


neighbours, against China and India and Russia and negotiating...


you renegotiated a good deal would you give us an referendum on the


negotiations, that is the key here? I do not think you can dodge the


issue of the referendum. Thank you. That simple binary choice in or out


is the distilation of 1,000 years of history of wars endured and


holidays enjoyed, cultural traditions and eating enthusiasm.


All our ideas of whether we want to be part of the European project are


based on who we think we are. Here We will fight on the beaches, we


will fight on the landing grounds, we will fight in the fields and in


the streets, we shall fight in the hills. We shall never surrender.


Can you stop talking about the war. You started it! You invaded Poland!


He wanted the commission to be the executive and he wanted the Council


of Ministers to be the Senate. No. We have let the politicians have


their say but Europe isn't just a political issue. Here to discuss


the cultural aspects of Britain's relationship with Europe are Tony


Parsons and Jeanette Winterson and Annalisa Piras.


What is it with the British in Europe do you think Tony? I think


it's other people have said tonight, we voted for one thing, as I did,


first time I voted in 1975, voted to be part of a trading block,


voted to be part of a common market and a lot of people in this country


feel as though they have had something else rammed down their


throats and they object to that. It's nothing to do with not feeling


European. You can feel like a European without wanting to be part


of an EU we never voted for. When you look at it from as a foreigner


among us, how do you see it? Bemused. I am really, really


bemused, by the way you relate to the problem. I have been living in


this country for 15 years and I have been constantly puzzled by how


a country that is normally so rational and intelligent, when it


comes to Europe, it's like if there was a blind spot. All the ational


arguments go out the door and you start talking about things that


relate very, very little with the real issues that are on the table.


How does it seem to you? Everything I heard tonight I found disturbing,


because we haven't been talking about people. We talk about


policies and politics. But what about people in Europe in Britain.


A lot of the things that happened, it seems to me, from our union with


Europe, have been very positive, particularly for women. We haven't


heard the word woman at all tonight. We have an invited audience here,


six women out of 24. We had a bunch of guys lined up here as we always


do. We need to talk about what happens to people and to women. It


is a useful argument. Maternity leave, childcare rights, that is


things that have come out of the European Union. You are not saying


these improvements would not have occurred had we not been members of


the EU? I am, yes. She's right. What do you make of that argument?


What I think different shaits this country from the rest, where we are


different our history and our memory. In 75 when we had our


referendum when I voted to be part of a trading block, I spent a year


travelling and was in Spain of General Franco and in the Greece of


the colonels. I travelled across Europe where memories were fresh of


Nazi occupation. We haven't had that in this country. We have had a


different experience of freedom and democracy and I think that really


sticks in the throat of a lot of British people, when things are


done, when we can't kick someone like cat like Abu ka taed da out of


our country. It's something about being on an island, without having


land borders, There is a lot of people in Munich and Athens and a


lot of people in Madrid and Milan that feel like we do. It's wrong to


paint the British as these xenophobic island race.


geography of Britain certainly matters in the attitude towards


Europe. This is the island nation. Since when has been Ince lar been a


crime? It is not a crime, but affects the way you look at the


continent. Do you remember the Ealing comedy


passport to Pimlico, where a few British people decide they are in


Burgundy and it's great because in the pubs all night and then they


are back in Britain and it's raining. There is that mentality


here. We always focus on the negative. That is one of the bad


things about being British. In all this discussion tonight, I haven't


heard what's been good about the EU. I would like to hear a little bit


of that because by no means is it all bad. Quick whiz round the


audience, who can think of good things about the EU? No capital


punishment. Good wine. Better food.


Freedom of movement from one country to another. Civil


partnerships. Better employment legislation.


Creativity. Low cost flights. Now we are


talking about people. 15% of young people in Spain have got a job. 50%


that haven't got a a job but we don't want to mention them. Let's


stick with the positives. Low cost flights is a direct consequence of


Europe. Millions of people would not have been able to travel. You


have 23 fascist MPs in parliament. It seems to be rational to some


people, the distinction between a relatively Middle East elite...


EasyJet, Ryanair, that is not for... When the monetary union was first


talked about we were given this argument that it would be easier


when you went abroad, it is an infant isle argument. The monetary


union has been the greatest catastrophe in this continent of


our lifetime. That is not true. I have to stop you there, because


creating a kurn sigh from nothing and having this kun this currency


becoming the second in the world, this is not a disaster. What is


happening in this country - you are confusing the crisis of the


eurozone which is happening nourks which is a consequence of a credit


crunch by started in the United States. That is absolute tripe. The


eurozone problem is entirely the consequence of the way it was


designed and implemented. There was a flaw in the design of it. Thank


you. The euro is not a failure. flaw is in the common market


agricultural policy. These have been disasters. You want to vote on


a democratic institution. They cannot be got rid of. You can


change your MP. It doesn't make a difference. We are in a fantasy of


democracy. It would be good for the British people to be involved in


something instead of side lined. would be like kicking a dying man


in the head, having a referendum at the moment. We have waited 37 years.


I am going to stop you there. That is it for now. The English football


team collected their bagfuls of retentions from the carousel this


afternoon. Their manager making the profound observation that we have


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