25/06/2012 Newsnight


25/06/2012

Jeremy Paxman with a Newsnight special: with the Eurozone heading for chaos or else ever closer union, is it still a club we want to be part of?


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Transcript


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We've been droning on about the euro crisis for weeks now. The

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underlying assumption is that it is someone else's problem and we are

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well out of it. But the attempts to find a solution raise questions

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which affect us all. Should we be in or out? More involved or less?

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We have a studio audience here. It is nearly 40 years since this

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country decide it had could no longer remain a sceppered isle. We

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joined a common market and now find ourselves part of a European Union.

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If the eurozone needs a form of political union to save the kurn

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tri, what will the politicians tell them? What does it say about us as

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a nation. Are we depifrn or just deluded. We will try and get to the

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Cyprus became the fifth eurozone state to stick its hand out and ask

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for financial help today. How lucky Britain is to have decide today

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stay out of the single currency you may say. Yet the British position

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is we want the euro to survive, jobs and prosperity here depend on

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T for that to happen it is increasingly recognised that there

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will have to be greater central control of taxes and spending and

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that looks to demand greater central political union from which

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of course we should be excluded. Our relationship with Europe is a

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huge issue on which the political class of this country seems adrift

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from the people. In a minute Paddy Ashdown, Peter Hain, David Davies

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and Nigel Farage, but first David Grossman.

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Things are changing so fast in Europe right now that even by the

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time these passengers arrive in Brussels or Paris, there's no great

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certainty what sort of continent will await them. There's so many

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different possible scenarios, will the euro still exist at all as a

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currency? The wonders of foreign travel and

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the invention of things like the Eurostar mean we have never been

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better connected to the whole of the European mainland. At the same

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time though, the complications going on in the eurozone mean we

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have never been more politically detached from the whole European

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project. The question is where is that project heading next and does

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Britain want to be on board. In a perverse way I think it is a

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great opportunity for Britain to actually look at our relationship

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with Europe. We have been part of an institution which is incredibly

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bureaucratic. It's made it difficult for us to be flexible and

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to have the ability to do the things which our economy needs.

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Pickly -- particularly in the economic crisis. We need to be

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focusing on deregulating our economy. That is difficult when

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Europe is moving in the opposite direction. Of course it would be

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great to have all of the benefits of EU membership without having to

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stump up for any of the cost. But say observers of matters EU, why

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would our partners allow us on the train unless we are prepared to pay

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for a ticket. Britain has always wanted the same thing, we want a

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loose free trade arrangement. We don't like the high costs of red

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tape. We don't like sending huge amounts of money to French farmers.

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We have always wanted the same things. The problem is, that is not

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how it works. Europe is a grand bargain. You get the free trade

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membership of the single market in return for countries that are not

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keen on free trade like France, getting other things for them too.

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They want the rules and regulations to guarantee it isn't a race to the

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bottom on standards. Last year David Cameron suggested that

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Britain could use the eurozone crisis to force Brussels to give us

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back some sovereignty. Treaty change can only happen if it is

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agreed by all 27 member states of the European Union and any treaty

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change, as the last treaty change did, is an opportunity for Britain

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to vans our ntional interest. strategy wasn't exactly a

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resounding success when Britain refused to sign the new fiscal

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compact, the other member states went ahead any way. If you try and

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seize the opportunity of others misfortune and when the others are

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trying to redraft the treaties to sort out the eurozone crisis and

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then we say you can't have your new treaty unless you give us AB and C,

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opting out of social policy or whatever, that wouldn't go down

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well. We would have no friends or allies in doing that. People would

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tell us to go away. Then of course there is the small matter of what

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sort of Europe the voters want. They seem less and less happy these

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days to leave the driving to their political masters. We will discuss

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whether we should have a referendum in a while, but first here with our

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studio audience are four people with very different visions of our

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future relationship with Europe. The leader of the UK Independence

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Party Nigel Farage, David Davies from the Tory Party, and was

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previously a Minister for Europe. Peter Hain former Labour cabinet

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minister and Minister for Europe as well. Former leader of the Liberal

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Democrats lord Paddy Ashdown. David Davies, how important is it

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that at a time like this we try to redefine our relationship with

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Europe?. It's It's going to become very important. The only way out of

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the problem with the eurozone will be more federalism for some of the

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European Union members, and more centralisation. We won't want that.

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That will be something we have never sibbed up to -- signed up to

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and we have to start deciding what we do want. This is a big moment.

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very big moment. You would share that view I imagine Paddy Ashdown?

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Absolutely. Welcome to the question of referendum shortly. You also

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believe, therefore, that this country has to decide whether it is

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in or out long-term? Not now. No. I think the deal that's there on the

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table - by the way I was the first politician to say 15 years ago if

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there was to be a substantial move of powers to the EU that that ought

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to be the subject of a referendum. That is right. Let me see if we can

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identify this. 3.5 million jobs now depend on trade with Europe. Our

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major partners. Probably reduce the trade annually with a European

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Union, 40% of our trade, 2% with China, down to family basis. The

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important thing is that we make sure we do the right thing to

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ensure the EU survives. I agree with David Davies, that means

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deepening the institutions of Europe. At this stage, Britain

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cannot go along with that process. How we say we want to stand aside

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from the process at the moment is absolute lie crucial. We will

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explore that in a moment. Peter Hain, if Paddy Ashdown is right and

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there may be a mechanism for saving the euro, it is something that we

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want to see succeed isn't it? want to see the euro succeed. 40%

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of our trade is with the eurozone countries. Over half our trade is

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with the EU as a whole. We have to remind ourselves while we are in

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Europe. Why I voted yes in 1975. Because Europe has saved this

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continent, which we are part of, although an island off it, from war,

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and conflict of a kind which didn't visit any other part of the world.

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There would be war in Western Europe without the EU? I am saying

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it helped cement peace and prosperity after the second Second

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World War. When Paddy was a special representive in Bosnia or shortly

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before that, Croatia was at war and now it is actually establishing

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democratic procedures because of the EU. Let's not forget the big

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prize and prosperity it's brought to everybody. Having said that, the

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eurozone... Greece. Spain, it is a disaster zone economically.

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Uncompetitive with job regulations, environmental standards. Destroying

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jobs in Britain. If you think the eurozone with total unemployment at

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23% is a success, I would hate to see what failure is. I am not

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saying it is a success. I am saying the EU has brought the whole of

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Europe prosperity. The eurozone was designed on an entirely faulty

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basis. From the beginning. I voted against the ma trict treaty. --

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Maastricht Treaty. The idea that we would get out of Europe and not any

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more have access to emergency health care. This is silly. These

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arguments we are hearing tonight are 40 years out of date. The idea

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that we have to be part of a political union in order to buy and

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sell goods with French and German and Italian companies is an idea

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that belongs back in the '60s. We have been through global trade

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liberalisation through the World Trade Organisation and you should

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remember Paddy that we are the biggest export market for the EU in

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the world. They sell us far more than we sell them. If you think 3.5

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million jobs are dependent on our trade with Europe, there are 6

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million jobs in Europe dependent on their trade with us. Just to bring

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in the audience. I do wish the politicians read their history

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books. Prior to 1914, 40% of the English trade was done with Germany.

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It didn't stop at war. The idea that you can, that will not going

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to war with people you do trade with is ridiculous. No-one is

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suggesting that. Who feels them self to be a

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European? Puts your hands up. Why haven't you put your hand up?

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don't feel. I feel I am an Englishman and then a Briton second.

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European third perhaps? Possibly but very vaguely. The issue for me

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is I don't see why we can't trade with these countries, why we have

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to take part and be part of a growing federal super state, it's

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beyond me. I agree. I believe political and

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economyically we will always be tied to other countries but I feel

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the relationship of the ear ozone is too close. Let's have someone

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from here. Who feels it is a key moment in our relationship with

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Europe, because something is going on in Europe at the end, if it

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doesn't go away we are going to be in a dit of difficulty. It is a key

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moment for us at the moment. If we go towards more central powers and

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financial services go into Europe, we are in a horrible situation. If

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we leave and rely on our World Trade Organisation, we could be hit

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with trade tariffs. We are in a key position now to negotiate. Leaving

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wouldn't settle anything would it? If we leave, trade organisation

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would be our only sort of meshing nism to trade. The European Union

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has 63 trade deals, Mexico has a free trade deal with the EU. Are

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you telling me their biggest export market wouldn't have that deal.

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you are going to consign us to the position of Norway, outside or

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Switzerland... Make our own trade deals... Norway has had to enact

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75% of European legislation to remain a trader in the single

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market. Completely wrong. Out of Europe but run by Europe, that is

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what you are proposing. Let me give you an argument for the future. I

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dare say it isn't popular but it is true. The position of Europe has

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now now funed amountally changed. - - Fundamentally changed. We have a

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Russian President, prepared to use tanks, you have a rising China and

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rising India. If Europe doesn't realise the right reaction for the

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new circumstances is to deepen the institution of our defence, foreign

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affairs and economy, we are bloody fools. Get rid of our democracy!

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Let me say this to you. If you do not realise, if you really want to

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consign all the countries of Europe to the perfect sovereignty of corks

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floating around other people's ocean liners help yourself but in

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the world you are about to come into, getting together with our

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European partners, and pooling our sofr at this is the way we give

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ourselves a powerful voice in a world that is going to be more

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turbulent. Why shouldn't we leave? We should renegotiate our position.

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Let me take one point. Paddy has a point that we want to maintain a

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trading relationship with Europe. I don't accept the price is the one

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he puts up. We should have a relationship which allows us to

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trade with them, which has co- operation agreements but not

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subordination. They should be co- operation arrangements. What should

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we renegotiate with Europe? It is the whole package. The whole thing?

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The whole package. In a In effect, Merkel has told us something

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already. They see they are going down a route that does not suit us.

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They know that and they are going to have to come to a new

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relationship. What it will be is a very difficult guess. If they don't

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should we leave? There's no reason why all the other countries are

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going to say we will give you what you want and you can have exactly

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the free trade arrangements you want but you don't have to make any

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of the rules or be part of all of that. It doesn't seem to me to be

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practical common sense. Are you in favour of renegotiating our our

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arrangement with Europe? It is important we learn from Greece, and

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everyone is properly in the EU or out of it. When one member state,

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when its financials or goes bankrupt, there are serious

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ramifications for the other members so we are either all in together or

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half out. There is a halfway house and we are in it, we are not in the

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euro but in the European Union. Your point is? There is no halfway

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house. There are 60 halfway houses. 60 trade deals. If we separate

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trade and politician, we can have a trade relationship without being

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members of the political union. are the people pretty much in a

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sticky dilemma, the main threat to our sofr at this is hardly other

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nations, it is large multi- nationals who can dictate to us our

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fiscal policies otherwise they will go somewhere else. The alternative

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to that is ganging up with the EU and wider and that we know is

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fairly undemocratic. That we know is very much captured by the same

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sector. But some kind of change is our only hope against something

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like debt servitude. I was going to say that all the

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conversations so far has been control, about trade, but you asked

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the question earlier who feels like a European. To me the EU project is

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more about binding, breaking down barriers, taking away traditional

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hostilities, to me a large reason to be part of it and to remain part

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of it and to strengthen and deepen the relationship is things like the

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experience of my son, who has graduated from the University of

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Geneva. That wouldn't have been possible for me at my time when I

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was at university. I am talking about a situation in which across

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Europe, including some countries not in the EU, we have seen a

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tendency for countries to come together and break down barriers.

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Actually the north and south are breaking away and being very rude

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about each other. Do you feel this is a democratic institution? Do you

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feel you have a say over how it behaves? No. Does anybody?

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Absolutely not? This is a specifically selected audience to

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represent public opinion. Does anyone feel they have control of

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the EU or their views are represented? It is a false die cot

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We elect politicians to represent us and we have politicians in

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Britain and politicians in Europe who do that. Were I to show you a

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picture of a European politician or Mr Barrossi, would you know him, du

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know him? Not at all. One or two people do know him. You can't

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remove them. I wonder if you put every member of the cabinet up

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there would people know. He hasn't been voted for and we can't remove

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him. This is a debate, not a shouting match. It is accepted that

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the democratic democratic institutions of Europe need

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reforming, so do they at Westminster. The fact that the

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democracies in these institutions is not up to the standards we would

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wish to see is not a reason for abandoning them. The American state,

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United States has now agreed to begin trade negotiations with the

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EU. Our two primary trading partners. Nigel wants us not to be

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at the table at all. A third of the population of the globe who offered

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us seven years ago a free trade deal... Be serious Nigel.

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European Union is on our doorstep. You have never worked in the real

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world but most of our business is done on telephones.

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I am with Lord Ashdown about the earlier arguments about the peace,

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prosperity and stability that Europe has brought. Certainly the

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recent history of Europe in terms of Yugoslavia, the fragmentation,

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the nationalisms and hatred, that was indicative of what happens when

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nations... Are forced together against their will... The point is

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the issue about integration surely is is about stability, acceptance

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of respect for human rights and Rule of Law and the Copenhagen cry

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tear ya. The countries that came from the former Eastern bloc to

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escape Soviet totalitarianism, which has been corrupted by the way

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the political class has characterised it... Suppose the

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members of the eurozone do manage to save their currency by going to

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a fiscal union, taxing union and political decision-making union,

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would it it still be an organisation worth belonging to?

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think it would be. I think it is important at the centre. What seems

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likely is we are seen as a serious power in Europe, when we negotiate

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with the eurozone we get the best deal for Britain, instead of

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exercising vetoes which the Prime Minister did.

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We would have no say in that central core. We could have

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influence in it. I don't any anybody in Britain wants to join

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the eurozone. I think some people do. Tony Blair seemed to be saying

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we should think about it. What I think I do say and what separates

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me from Nigel and David is this: if it becomes in Britain's interests

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to join the euro in the future, I think we should do so. They think

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they wouldn't want to. They are not going to want to join the euro if

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it is not in our interests. If it was in Britain's to join the euro,

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would you join it. The euro is headed for a disaster. We should

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never give up control of our own economy. It's becoming increasingly

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widely accepted in euroland that for the currency to work there will

:22:45.:22:52.

have to be an integration of taxes. That implies an integration of

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politics and political institutions. The government has promised a frism

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if there is any significant transfer of power to Europe. It is

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time to hear again from David If you are a British voter under 55,

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you may have noticed you have never been given a direct say in our

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membership of the EU. You can judge how far attitudes have shifted

:23:24.:23:28.

since 1975 by looking at how newspapers that are now hostile to

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the EU then welcomed the yes vote. The yes vote that even Margaret

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Thatcher campaigned for. Unlike some countries who see the EU is

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bringing about a new age of freedom and democracy, Britain has has

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always been more hot head headed. We were going to make a better

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living for ourselves S now that living has been thrown into doubt

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by the eurozone crisis, well, many in Britain believe that British

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voters should be given a say on what sort of future Europe has.

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I speak as someone who will make a business defence of the single

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market and EU membership. I used to work in Brussels for five years and

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I watched them lose the referendums on the institution and then turn it

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into a new treaty to avoid further referendums, and that was an anti-

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democratic act. If someone says to me Europe basically isn't a very

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democratic project, I am afraid I have to agree with you. I

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completely understand why there is a real desire to let the people in

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on this process, because it is felt like a conspiracy of the elite and

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that at the moment is in desperate shape. I completely understand that.

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I have my own moment to think we should do this and have a

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referendum. The big question with a referendum is what would the big

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referendum question be, what would the public be asked. There are no

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specific specific treaty changes under discussion now. This is the

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political difficulty which David Cameron is facing at the moment,

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deciding what that question might be. The public are fretty clear

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they do -- pretty clear they do want a referendum, whether you

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frame it in terms of in or out is the question.

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In an ideal world, the simplest way of doing it would be a radical

:25:27.:25:30.

renegotiation which takes us back to something which is more akin to

:25:30.:25:33.

simply a free trade relationship. The difficulty you have there is

:25:33.:25:37.

getting the rest of Europe to agree to that. I think at the moment it

:25:37.:25:41.

is looking increasingly unlikely that we would get what we want in

:25:41.:25:45.

that renegotiation. What terrifies the politicians is

:25:45.:25:50.

however they try to contain anti-EU sentiment, and channel it into a

:25:50.:25:58.

safe sort of referendum, it will end up as a de facto in out

:25:58.:26:02.

referendum. And Britain could end up out of the EU and none of the

:26:02.:26:07.

main party leaders right now wants to risk that. Let's be clear, there

:26:07.:26:14.

aren't safer options. Almost any referendum you do offer, will be an

:26:14.:26:20.

in or out referendum. Despite many uncertainties over the form the

:26:20.:26:23.

referendum will take, what the negotiated terms will amount to,

:26:23.:26:29.

the campaign has already started. That is just as true today. The

:26:29.:26:32.

background campaigning on the referendum we may or may not get is

:26:32.:26:36.

already going on. The The politics is moving in one direction only.

:26:36.:26:40.

All the parties under increasing pressure to commit to that

:26:40.:26:44.

referendum in their next manifestoes. None wants to be the

:26:44.:26:50.

last to agree. Our panel and audience are still

:26:50.:26:54.

here. Just as a matter of interest among the audience here, how many

:26:54.:26:58.

people would like to see a referendum sometime when we can

:26:58.:27:03.

frame the question in the next few weeks or months? You in the green

:27:04.:27:08.

shirt, have you nothing interesting to say on the referendum? I have,

:27:08.:27:15.

we already had a referendum, I voted, there was two million for

:27:15.:27:25.

and one million again. There are 32 million of us I didn't vote, I was

:27:25.:27:30.

11. The question was about a common market not a European Union. Which

:27:30.:27:35.

is why mar threat Thatcher made it so large that it wasn't possible to

:27:35.:27:42.

work very efficiently. There is an overwhelming majority who do want

:27:42.:27:47.

some sort of say on the subject. Is that what you are going to say.

:27:47.:27:53.

point I am going to make is the fact that I, too, voted for it, but

:27:53.:28:00.

I voted purely and simply for trade. I didn't vote for a political union,

:28:00.:28:04.

I didn't vote for this country to lose its sovereignty. I didn't vote

:28:04.:28:08.

for the amount of money which the EU is costing us and quite clearly

:28:08.:28:16.

I do agree with Nigel Farage's that I have watched on U tube. Thank

:28:16.:28:21.

you! I think if the European project is

:28:21.:28:26.

to succeed, it has to take the people with it. The people in

:28:26.:28:32.

Europe in France and Germany are getting more and more anti-EU

:28:32.:28:36.

projects because it's seen what it is costing them. Furthermore, you

:28:36.:28:40.

cannot just wipe away 1,000 years of history in all these countries.

:28:40.:28:44.

They speak different languages, they have different cultures. It is

:28:44.:28:48.

not a question of trade and human resources and silly rules coming

:28:48.:28:53.

over from Brussels. It is a lot more than that, that involves the

:28:53.:28:57.

entire population. The lady is right. It is a point we didn't

:28:57.:29:03.

cover. You have 27 different views of what you want out of Europe. We

:29:03.:29:06.

talk about democracy when the Greeks came in, it was after the

:29:06.:29:12.

colonels. When the Spanish came in, it was after Franco. We came in

:29:12.:29:16.

with a fully formed democracy. Paddy doesn't like it, but it is a

:29:16.:29:20.

fully formed working democracy. Nothing like the EU. We have

:29:20.:29:27.

something to lose in this, which others perhaps didn't have. So you

:29:27.:29:32.

are in favour of a referendum. Absolutely. In out referendum?

:29:32.:29:37.

have to have the negotiation first and yes when it comes down to it,

:29:37.:29:41.

it probably does have to be an in and out referendum, once people

:29:41.:29:46.

have seen what the New Deal is, but you have to have a new deal first.

:29:46.:29:49.

Before we get to referendums. There are some things we will lose. But

:29:49.:29:55.

there are sings we will gain as well. This is going to be a very,

:29:55.:30:01.

very, very turbulent, bloody decades ahead of it. There is

:30:01.:30:05.

nothing I would like the British people to have that we cannot get

:30:05.:30:12.

better than work being our parters and the mechanism for doing that is

:30:12.:30:18.

the EU and if we abandon that, and commit ourselves to the perfect

:30:18.:30:23.

sovereignty of small small nations drifting around, our capacity to

:30:23.:30:26.

have the voice to be able to deliver the security I want for the

:30:26.:30:32.

British people will be massively diminished. We are living in an age

:30:32.:30:38.

where what needs to be done cannot be done by national governments

:30:38.:30:44.

alone. I agree with the lady here, I think a referendum on Europe is

:30:44.:30:48.

now in or out referendum, is unstoppable. I think secondly,

:30:49.:30:55.

although I shall be... How far off do you think it might be? I think

:30:55.:30:59.

we will have to see the result of these negotiations. Then we have to

:30:59.:31:04.

see whether or not that shifts power to Europe from Britain. If it

:31:04.:31:08.

doesn't we will have to decide whether or not Britain is

:31:08.:31:12.

advantaged for disadvantaged by that. In the end what it comes down

:31:12.:31:19.

to is an in our out referendum. I have to say I think think those who

:31:19.:31:24.

argue the case are going to find it very, very difficult to win a yes

:31:24.:31:30.

vote. Surely the question on the ballot paper should be do you want

:31:30.:31:40.
:31:40.:31:44.

to be ruled by Berlin. We have to look at the future and

:31:44.:31:50.

Nigel taking over this discussion and changing the rhetoric out there,

:31:50.:31:56.

the British population is being influenced by this minority against

:31:56.:32:03.

Europe. What we are arguing is there is no European demos. Even

:32:03.:32:08.

the introduction tonight said is Britain being silly and deluded.

:32:08.:32:15.

This argument is happening all over Europe. We want a Europe of trade

:32:15.:32:22.

and co-operation, not one that costs us a fortune. Not one whose

:32:23.:32:29.

courts overrule ours. On the referendum specifically, I think a

:32:30.:32:32.

referendum is almost inevitable. If people want a referendum,

:32:32.:32:37.

politicians should not deny them one, but this is going to be a big

:32:37.:32:41.

big decision. It shouldn't be now because Europe is in crisis. If you

:32:41.:32:50.

suddenly put... Don't know what you are voting on now. You could

:32:50.:32:57.

emergency the chaos -- imagine the chaos. We have to see where we get

:32:57.:33:02.

to as a result of this crisis. I am not frightened of a referendum. I

:33:02.:33:06.

don't think the Labour Party should be frightened of one. If people

:33:06.:33:10.

want a referendum, they will get one. We were the party who gave

:33:10.:33:15.

people a vote in 1975, the Tories having taken us in without one. We

:33:15.:33:20.

will give people a vote if that is what they want. When do you suggest

:33:20.:33:25.

this referendum would be run. Lord Ashdown said maybe we have two or

:33:25.:33:32.

three decades of turmoil. No I didn't say that. Are you suggesting

:33:32.:33:37.

that we wait until calm waters and then decide whether we want to be

:33:37.:33:43.

in or out. I agreed with David Davies, when the negotiations are

:33:43.:33:47.

finished, we see what the balance of powers are. If this country is

:33:47.:33:53.

going to be disadvantaged by that, then a referendum... On a point of

:33:53.:33:58.

clarification, is it possible that Britain could be significantly

:33:58.:34:02.

disadvantaged, a shift of power, which was not actually a passing of

:34:02.:34:07.

a power from our parliament to a European institution but was

:34:07.:34:12.

disadvantaged by the existence, creation of some political union

:34:12.:34:16.

that involves the other members of the euro. It is possible. That

:34:16.:34:20.

could trigger a referendum? If this country believes because of the new

:34:20.:34:24.

arrangements for Europe, we believe that there is a danger that will be

:34:24.:34:26.

disadvantaged, that may be the circumstances in which a referendum

:34:26.:34:36.
:34:36.:34:38.

needs to be. That shouldn't be a ministerial judgment. Who is going

:34:38.:34:45.

to decide, The Sun newspaper? The government is made to decide.

:34:45.:34:48.

should be a referendum either way, whatever the outcome of the

:34:48.:34:52.

negotiation, there should be a referendum, because we are already

:34:52.:34:56.

in a transform circumstance. We are already -- Paddy may not have said

:34:56.:35:00.

it. Do you trust David Cameron and Nick Clegg to make that judgment?

:35:00.:35:04.

Any nition in power is -- politician is power is going to

:35:04.:35:09.

have to make the call in favour of a referendum. Do you trust them to

:35:09.:35:13.

make an adequate call? I think they will.

:35:13.:35:18.

The danger is what we get is not a referendum. The political class

:35:18.:35:24.

will play the truck on us -- trick of us, they will say you can have a

:35:24.:35:28.

trade deal with Europe, and they will ask us to vote yes to stay

:35:28.:35:36.

part of a single market. That is my big fear with us. Let's have a

:35:36.:35:42.

proper in, out referendum. I hope the government gets the best deal

:35:43.:35:48.

for Britain. What I fear is we will have a government which turns its

:35:48.:35:52.

back on the negotiations and says we are just walking away. Then they

:35:52.:35:56.

go and do a deal like they are doing on financial transactions tax

:35:56.:35:59.

which may be prejudicial to Britain's interests and in this

:35:59.:36:03.

case our finance. We have to be right at the centre. This is about

:36:03.:36:06.

power and whether Britain is serious about being with our

:36:06.:36:15.

neighbours, against China and India and Russia and negotiating...

:36:15.:36:19.

you renegotiated a good deal would you give us an referendum on the

:36:19.:36:23.

negotiations, that is the key here? I do not think you can dodge the

:36:23.:36:29.

issue of the referendum. Thank you. That simple binary choice in or out

:36:29.:36:35.

is the distilation of 1,000 years of history of wars endured and

:36:36.:36:40.

holidays enjoyed, cultural traditions and eating enthusiasm.

:36:40.:36:44.

All our ideas of whether we want to be part of the European project are

:36:44.:36:54.
:36:54.:37:03.

based on who we think we are. Here We will fight on the beaches, we

:37:03.:37:09.

will fight on the landing grounds, we will fight in the fields and in

:37:09.:37:18.

the streets, we shall fight in the hills. We shall never surrender.

:37:18.:37:28.
:37:28.:37:30.

Can you stop talking about the war. You started it! You invaded Poland!

:37:30.:37:34.

He wanted the commission to be the executive and he wanted the Council

:37:34.:37:44.
:37:44.:38:07.

of Ministers to be the Senate. No. We have let the politicians have

:38:07.:38:11.

their say but Europe isn't just a political issue. Here to discuss

:38:11.:38:17.

the cultural aspects of Britain's relationship with Europe are Tony

:38:17.:38:20.

Parsons and Jeanette Winterson and Annalisa Piras.

:38:20.:38:26.

What is it with the British in Europe do you think Tony? I think

:38:26.:38:31.

it's other people have said tonight, we voted for one thing, as I did,

:38:31.:38:35.

first time I voted in 1975, voted to be part of a trading block,

:38:35.:38:39.

voted to be part of a common market and a lot of people in this country

:38:39.:38:42.

feel as though they have had something else rammed down their

:38:42.:38:47.

throats and they object to that. It's nothing to do with not feeling

:38:47.:38:52.

European. You can feel like a European without wanting to be part

:38:52.:38:59.

of an EU we never voted for. When you look at it from as a foreigner

:39:00.:39:06.

among us, how do you see it? Bemused. I am really, really

:39:06.:39:11.

bemused, by the way you relate to the problem. I have been living in

:39:11.:39:17.

this country for 15 years and I have been constantly puzzled by how

:39:17.:39:21.

a country that is normally so rational and intelligent, when it

:39:21.:39:26.

comes to Europe, it's like if there was a blind spot. All the ational

:39:26.:39:30.

arguments go out the door and you start talking about things that

:39:30.:39:34.

relate very, very little with the real issues that are on the table.

:39:34.:39:39.

How does it seem to you? Everything I heard tonight I found disturbing,

:39:39.:39:43.

because we haven't been talking about people. We talk about

:39:43.:39:48.

policies and politics. But what about people in Europe in Britain.

:39:48.:39:52.

A lot of the things that happened, it seems to me, from our union with

:39:52.:39:56.

Europe, have been very positive, particularly for women. We haven't

:39:56.:40:02.

heard the word woman at all tonight. We have an invited audience here,

:40:02.:40:07.

six women out of 24. We had a bunch of guys lined up here as we always

:40:07.:40:10.

do. We need to talk about what happens to people and to women. It

:40:10.:40:16.

is a useful argument. Maternity leave, childcare rights, that is

:40:16.:40:22.

things that have come out of the European Union. You are not saying

:40:22.:40:27.

these improvements would not have occurred had we not been members of

:40:27.:40:36.

the EU? I am, yes. She's right. What do you make of that argument?

:40:36.:40:40.

What I think different shaits this country from the rest, where we are

:40:40.:40:47.

different our history and our memory. In 75 when we had our

:40:47.:40:51.

referendum when I voted to be part of a trading block, I spent a year

:40:51.:40:56.

travelling and was in Spain of General Franco and in the Greece of

:40:56.:41:01.

the colonels. I travelled across Europe where memories were fresh of

:41:02.:41:05.

Nazi occupation. We haven't had that in this country. We have had a

:41:05.:41:09.

different experience of freedom and democracy and I think that really

:41:09.:41:15.

sticks in the throat of a lot of British people, when things are

:41:15.:41:25.
:41:25.:41:26.

done, when we can't kick someone like cat like Abu ka taed da out of

:41:26.:41:36.
:41:36.:41:37.

our country. It's something about being on an island, without having

:41:37.:41:41.

land borders, There is a lot of people in Munich and Athens and a

:41:42.:41:48.

lot of people in Madrid and Milan that feel like we do. It's wrong to

:41:48.:41:57.

paint the British as these xenophobic island race.

:41:57.:42:01.

geography of Britain certainly matters in the attitude towards

:42:01.:42:08.

Europe. This is the island nation. Since when has been Ince lar been a

:42:08.:42:14.

crime? It is not a crime, but affects the way you look at the

:42:14.:42:21.

continent. Do you remember the Ealing comedy

:42:21.:42:30.

passport to Pimlico, where a few British people decide they are in

:42:30.:42:33.

Burgundy and it's great because in the pubs all night and then they

:42:33.:42:38.

are back in Britain and it's raining. There is that mentality

:42:38.:42:42.

here. We always focus on the negative. That is one of the bad

:42:42.:42:45.

things about being British. In all this discussion tonight, I haven't

:42:45.:42:49.

heard what's been good about the EU. I would like to hear a little bit

:42:49.:42:55.

of that because by no means is it all bad. Quick whiz round the

:42:55.:43:04.

audience, who can think of good things about the EU? No capital

:43:04.:43:14.

punishment. Good wine. Better food.

:43:14.:43:18.

Freedom of movement from one country to another. Civil

:43:18.:43:23.

partnerships. Better employment legislation.

:43:23.:43:29.

Creativity. Low cost flights. Now we are

:43:30.:43:35.

talking about people. 15% of young people in Spain have got a job. 50%

:43:35.:43:40.

that haven't got a a job but we don't want to mention them. Let's

:43:40.:43:48.

stick with the positives. Low cost flights is a direct consequence of

:43:48.:43:53.

Europe. Millions of people would not have been able to travel. You

:43:53.:44:00.

have 23 fascist MPs in parliament. It seems to be rational to some

:44:00.:44:10.

people, the distinction between a relatively Middle East elite...

:44:10.:44:17.

EasyJet, Ryanair, that is not for... When the monetary union was first

:44:18.:44:21.

talked about we were given this argument that it would be easier

:44:21.:44:26.

when you went abroad, it is an infant isle argument. The monetary

:44:26.:44:31.

union has been the greatest catastrophe in this continent of

:44:31.:44:35.

our lifetime. That is not true. I have to stop you there, because

:44:35.:44:42.

creating a kurn sigh from nothing and having this kun this currency

:44:42.:44:45.

becoming the second in the world, this is not a disaster. What is

:44:45.:44:49.

happening in this country - you are confusing the crisis of the

:44:49.:44:53.

eurozone which is happening nourks which is a consequence of a credit

:44:53.:45:03.

crunch by started in the United States. That is absolute tripe. The

:45:03.:45:06.

eurozone problem is entirely the consequence of the way it was

:45:06.:45:10.

designed and implemented. There was a flaw in the design of it. Thank

:45:11.:45:20.
:45:21.:45:25.

you. The euro is not a failure. flaw is in the common market

:45:25.:45:35.
:45:35.:45:40.

agricultural policy. These have been disasters. You want to vote on

:45:40.:45:48.

a democratic institution. They cannot be got rid of. You can

:45:48.:45:55.

change your MP. It doesn't make a difference. We are in a fantasy of

:45:55.:46:01.

democracy. It would be good for the British people to be involved in

:46:01.:46:05.

something instead of side lined. would be like kicking a dying man

:46:05.:46:09.

in the head, having a referendum at the moment. We have waited 37 years.

:46:09.:46:13.

I am going to stop you there. That is it for now. The English football

:46:13.:46:18.

team collected their bagfuls of retentions from the carousel this

:46:18.:46:21.

afternoon. Their manager making the profound observation that we have

:46:21.:46:25.