22/06/2012 Newsnight


22/06/2012

Stories behind the headlines. Labour want to lower the number of foreigners a company employs. Practical policy or just noise? Plus, there is another Euro summit. With Gavin Esler.


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The Labour Government got it wrong on immigration. The party's leader

:00:15.:00:20.

Ed Miliband admits they did not recognise the cost to society. His

:00:20.:00:25.

solution? Companies to report if more than a quarter of their

:00:25.:00:29.

workers are from overseas. We return to Crewe to find out how

:00:29.:00:34.

that has gone down. They knew a long time ago they were wrong. That

:00:34.:00:39.

was before the Conservatives came into power. We debate whether any

:00:39.:00:43.

party is being straight with voters about immigration.

:00:43.:00:49.

In Warsaw the German Chancellor reacts to Greece leaving the euro,

:00:49.:00:53.

Surrey leaving Euro 2012. In Rome that there is another big

:00:53.:00:59.

sounding promise of action. Just how long can this game go on? We

:00:59.:01:03.

ask if we can keep on waiting for another solution just around the

:01:03.:01:09.

corner. Good evening. For politicians of

:01:09.:01:13.

the main parties the immigration debate has rarely been a

:01:13.:01:16.

comfortable one. When voters raise something they still passionately

:01:16.:01:22.

about, as happened to Gordon Brown, they can be dismissed as bigoted.

:01:22.:01:28.

When political leaders promise a brake on immigration, employers'

:01:28.:01:31.

organisations start fuming about the loss of reliable, foreign

:01:31.:01:35.

workers. His Ed Miliband's confession of past Labour mistakes

:01:35.:01:41.

the beginning of a new policy or an attempt to defuse the issue? Tim

:01:41.:01:49.

Whewell reports from Key Crewe, where in 2006 he fell hunt for

:01:49.:01:59.
:01:59.:02:02.

Newsnight on the social tensions. Where he made a film for Newsnight.

:02:02.:02:06.

He is a place that sums up how recent migration has changed the

:02:07.:02:11.

face of Britain, a place most people speed through, but where,

:02:11.:02:17.

eight years ago, thousands of Polish people suddenly and totally

:02:17.:02:25.

unexpectedly got off. The demography of a medium-sized

:02:25.:02:30.

town that had seen little previous immigration was transformed.

:02:30.:02:34.

According to the local council, at least 3000 Polish people have a

:02:34.:02:39.

right in this one town alone, immediately making up over 6% of

:02:39.:02:46.

the population. Families like the Roberts were not hostile to the

:02:46.:02:56.
:02:56.:02:57.

incomers, but they were remarkably prescient. It feels like a foreign

:02:57.:03:01.

country sometimes. If this continues, the bubble will burst

:03:01.:03:07.

and jobs will become scarcer. What happens then? What happens to where

:03:07.:03:13.

you have got British lads working alongside immigrant labour? Who

:03:13.:03:21.

gets the sack? The arrival of the migrants, following the Eastern

:03:21.:03:25.

expansion of the European Union, came as a complete surprise to the

:03:25.:03:29.

then Labour Government. It predicted net immigration from the

:03:29.:03:35.

new EU states would be between 50131000 a year. Some mistake. In

:03:35.:03:44.

fact, 576,000 arrived over the following seven years, peaking at

:03:44.:03:49.

112,000 in 2007 alone. Today, the present Labour leader, Ed Miliband,

:03:49.:03:55.

kind dog apologised. We too easily assumed that those who were

:03:55.:03:59.

worrying about immigration were stacked in the past, and realistic

:03:59.:04:06.

about how things could be different, even prejudiced. But Britain was

:04:06.:04:12.

experiencing the largest peacetime migration in history. People's

:04:12.:04:20.

concerns were genuine. For much of the last decade there was something

:04:20.:04:23.

missing between what people were talking about and what politicians

:04:23.:04:29.

were prepared to talk about at Westminster. The impact of European

:04:30.:04:34.

migration was not acknowledged and many felt that showed the elitism

:04:34.:04:37.

of the political class. They were not concerned about the problem

:04:37.:04:45.

because it did not affect them. But schools and other services came

:04:45.:04:52.

under unexpected strain and inevitably, as very few politicians

:04:52.:04:57.

noticed at the time, wages were driven down. Now that process is

:04:57.:05:01.

continuing as early migrants become more settled and new ones arrive

:05:01.:05:06.

from further afield. Brian Roberts has worked in the building industry

:05:06.:05:13.

for 45 years. I just spoke about an instance today with a colleague of

:05:13.:05:23.

mine who said a gang of Romanians weather gang master paid exactly

:05:23.:05:32.

half of what he was getting paid. That wage which they were taking

:05:32.:05:38.

home was well below the basic minimum wage. It was recruitment

:05:38.:05:42.

agencies that fuelled migration to Crewe. For a while this one had a

:05:42.:05:45.

branch in Poland and was single- handedly responsible for attracting

:05:45.:05:51.

many of the new workers. Our name was being published in the

:05:51.:05:54.

equivalent of almost the Daily Times in Poland, not to our

:05:54.:06:01.

knowledge. Suddenly, we were getting 400 e-mails a week.

:06:01.:06:07.

firm, which has since changed hands, has always paid the minimum wage or

:06:07.:06:11.

above. Labour now wants a new regulation to ensure recruitment

:06:12.:06:16.

agencies do not exclude British workers. But they say they never

:06:16.:06:21.

did, they just do not get enough local applications. The reason

:06:21.:06:24.

Labour did not talk much about European migration is not just

:06:24.:06:28.

because of blindness or political correctness, it is because there

:06:28.:06:33.

are no easy solutions. Most EU citizens have a right to work here

:06:33.:06:38.

and as recruitment agencies will tell you they are often more polite

:06:38.:06:43.

and more punctual than local job- seekers and more willing to do jobs

:06:43.:06:51.

that locals often will not take on. Filling the local skills gap in the

:06:51.:06:54.

electrical trade is one way to create a more level playing field

:06:54.:06:58.

in employment. More apprentices like this are being trained, but

:06:58.:07:04.

they still face competition from incomers. They are willing to work

:07:04.:07:10.

for a lot less, people from other countries. Do you see that? You see

:07:10.:07:16.

it from time to time on site. like many similar places up and

:07:16.:07:22.

down Britain, is now more mixed ethnically than ever before. Most

:07:22.:07:26.

locals accept that, but they wish they had had more warning.

:07:26.:07:30.

He is this really a complete change of heart from Labour? I have been

:07:30.:07:35.

speaking to Labour's Shadow Communities Secretary Hilary Benn.

:07:35.:07:39.

To be clear, this is the Labour Party saying there are too many

:07:39.:07:45.

immigrants in this country? No, it is not that. What Ed Miliband said

:07:45.:07:49.

is that in relation to the accession States we got it wrong in

:07:50.:07:54.

not putting in place transitional controls. Looking back on it, we

:07:54.:07:58.

should have done and had we done so, fewer people would have come from

:07:58.:08:02.

those countries. So there are not too many immigrants in this

:08:02.:08:06.

country? You got it wrong about the numbers, but there are not too

:08:06.:08:12.

many? This is all about innuendo? could not disagree with you more.

:08:12.:08:18.

This is about recognising the benefits and the consequences and

:08:18.:08:22.

understanding when people see communities that changing very fast,

:08:22.:08:26.

they feel uncomfortable. It does not mean they are bigots. It is

:08:26.:08:31.

also about looking at the way in which the economy works. There is

:08:31.:08:37.

also evidence this immigration has had an impact on wage rates. Some

:08:37.:08:40.

recruitment agencies say they only recruit people from certain Eastern

:08:40.:08:45.

European countries and that cannot be right. It is also looking about

:08:45.:08:49.

the skills that people in this country have so they also can

:08:49.:08:53.

participate in the labour market. You are accepting there is a

:08:53.:08:58.

cultural issue. A parent can say in leaves, my local school, more than

:08:58.:09:02.

half the children do not speak English as a first language and I

:09:02.:09:09.

am worried about that. To say that is not bigoted? I do not sign

:09:09.:09:13.

constituents saying that. They talk about housing and jobs. In some

:09:13.:09:17.

parts of the country they talk about the pace at which their

:09:17.:09:21.

community has changed. It is right we should be debating it and

:09:21.:09:27.

looking at practical solutions, for example whether people are from the

:09:27.:09:32.

UK or if they come from abroad they get at minimum wage. Looking at the

:09:32.:09:38.

work of the gang masters' Licensing Authority which we set up in the

:09:38.:09:46.

way of that tragedy in Morecambe. If your proposals go through, if a

:09:46.:09:50.

work force contains more than one in four emigrants, the Jobcentres

:09:50.:09:55.

should get involved. That would apply to a lot of hospital wards,

:09:55.:10:00.

wouldn't it? Let's be clear, the country has gained a lot from

:10:01.:10:05.

immigration. In Leeds many people have come from all over the world.

:10:05.:10:09.

Can you say is there any upper limit to the number of immigrants

:10:09.:10:13.

who should be allowed into this country because of the social

:10:13.:10:18.

strains and consequences you have talked about? We have said we will

:10:18.:10:22.

look at the question of caps, but you have got to be straight about

:10:23.:10:26.

Eastern European migration because there is no control over that. That

:10:27.:10:31.

is why we said clearly, we should have put those controls in place.

:10:31.:10:36.

The problem with the Government's cap is it only applies to a very

:10:36.:10:41.

small proportion of migration. We did put in place the points based

:10:41.:10:45.

system which allows people to coming weather is a skills shortage

:10:45.:10:49.

and that is sensible and the Government has carried on with it.

:10:49.:10:54.

What about non EU immigration which some people feel is culturally more

:10:54.:10:57.

difficult to assimilate and that is not a matter that you have

:10:58.:11:02.

discussed? With respect the points based system applies to non e

:11:03.:11:08.

migration and that is something we thought it was right we should be

:11:08.:11:13.

looking at what the skill needs are and if there is a shortage and if

:11:13.:11:16.

it is important for the economy, you can allow people in, but you

:11:16.:11:21.

should be able to control immigration at immigration control.

:11:21.:11:25.

The Government has continued with that because it was the right thing

:11:25.:11:33.

to do. Deborah Mattinson runs the Opinion Research Company Britain

:11:33.:11:37.

Thinks and Ian Birrell was a speechwriter for David Cameron in

:11:37.:11:41.

the 2010 campaign, but thinks they are getting it wrong on immigration.

:11:41.:11:47.

First of all, do you see this announcement by Ed Miliband as him

:11:47.:11:51.

saying, actually, we have got a political problem and it is a vote

:11:52.:11:58.

user for Labour? I think he is, yes. Basically, the situation Labour

:11:58.:12:02.

finds itself in his we have seen a lot of disillusionment with the

:12:02.:12:07.

Government, but people not yet rushing towards Labour. They are

:12:07.:12:12.

not yet ready. Labour does not have the licence to be heard yet and it

:12:12.:12:17.

will not have that until it really accepts responsibility for some of

:12:17.:12:21.

the things people think it got wrong the last time and immigration

:12:21.:12:25.

is one of them. When you did focus groups through the last Government,

:12:25.:12:33.

does it come up a lot? Yes, and we saw a real change as well. In 1999,

:12:33.:12:38.

fewer than 5% said immigration was one of the top problems facing the

:12:38.:12:44.

country. It is now a number two only to the economy. People are

:12:44.:12:49.

really, really worried about it. you think there is actually among

:12:49.:12:54.

the main parties a bit of a political consensus about this?

:12:54.:12:58.

They head like his immigration spiralling out of control and

:12:58.:13:02.

something must be done and there is a fundamental agreement? All the

:13:02.:13:06.

parties have accepted this is an issue that needs to be addressed.

:13:06.:13:10.

But I thought the speech day was disingenuous drivel. All the

:13:10.:13:14.

parties are coming out with the same rhetoric and promises, but it

:13:14.:13:19.

is down to economics and there is very little they can do. What Ed

:13:19.:13:22.

Miliband should have done is apologise because they are not

:13:22.:13:28.

telling the truth about immigration. Immigration benefits our public

:13:28.:13:33.

services because immigrants are more likely to pay taxes, it helps

:13:33.:13:38.

our pension crisis, and it is good for the British economy. That is

:13:38.:13:42.

not what they are saying and that is why the public is in such a mess

:13:42.:13:47.

on theirs. Politicians have not stood up and said, immigration is

:13:47.:13:50.

beneficial for us, we need it and there is not much we can do about

:13:50.:13:54.

it. People think politicians have not been straight because they have

:13:55.:14:01.

not allowed a debate. It is not that they are not making the right

:14:01.:14:06.

noises, they are not talking about it at all. The discussion has

:14:06.:14:12.

closed down. If you raise it, you are regarded as a bigot. This it

:14:12.:14:18.

that or is it that there is no easy solution as you suggest?

:14:18.:14:22.

endlessly here there is no debate. We hear is when people are debating

:14:22.:14:30.

it. We had Margaret Hodge talk about the pressure on social

:14:30.:14:36.

housing which led the BNP to power in her local area. We have had

:14:36.:14:40.

Gordon Brown and David Blunkett raised it. There is nothing we can

:14:40.:14:45.

do about it because it is economics and it is good for the country.

:14:45.:14:49.

That is a message a lot of people are not prepared to listen to.

:14:49.:14:55.

People see it as a problem. have to start with where people are.

:14:55.:15:00.

There are a lot of good points to make about immigration, economic,

:15:00.:15:04.

but if you do not start where people are, they are not going to

:15:04.:15:09.

listen or be persuaded. What Ed Miliband has done today, quite

:15:09.:15:15.

successfully, is to say, I understand how you feel. I

:15:15.:15:19.

understand the problems. He has also talked about the benefits in

:15:19.:15:29.
:15:29.:15:30.

It's rubbish. We will have this early warning system when we get

:15:30.:15:35.

recruitment company which gets up to 20%. When I saw Hilary Benn

:15:35.:15:41.

being asked what he would do about it, he had no answer. It's figure

:15:41.:15:44.

leaf solutions. They should say out loud and proud that immigration is

:15:44.:15:48.

very good for the country. That we need. It it helps our public

:15:48.:15:55.

services. One of the things that he said, let's be honest, let's not

:15:55.:15:58.

overpromise. If leading politicians made that argument, what would

:15:58.:16:01.

happen? People would close down. They wouldn't listen to it. What

:16:02.:16:06.

they are saying, at the moment, people feel that it causes more

:16:06.:16:10.

problems than it offers solutions. Unless you start were they are, at

:16:10.:16:14.

the problem end of things, you are not going to be able to persuade

:16:14.:16:19.

people of the solutions. We never hear anything... All we hear from

:16:19.:16:23.

politicians are the problems, never the solutions. That is not true.

:16:23.:16:26.

The politicians failed it give leadership on this issue what so

:16:26.:16:32.

ever. That is why the public has myths and misconceptions because of

:16:32.:16:36.

the appalling political leadership in all parties. Do you accept there,

:16:36.:16:40.

is as I tried to explore with Hilary Benn, a cultural issue.

:16:40.:16:46.

People see their communities changing it causes fear and concern.

:16:46.:16:50.

It's legitimate? There are concerns and issues. It's wrong for

:16:50.:16:54.

politicians to come out with this shallow rhetoric that we hear today.

:16:54.:16:59.

Yes, there is a plus side to it. It is good for our schools. A study

:16:59.:17:04.

came out if there is Polish kids in schools, schools do better. Not bad

:17:04.:17:10.

for housing. 25% of the population think if you weren't born in this

:17:10.:17:13.

country you shouldn't be educated by the state. That is were people's

:17:13.:17:17.

views are at the moment. That is the way politicians have been

:17:17.:17:22.

handling this. That is because of the lack of leadership. It make it

:17:22.:17:26.

is far worse. What he said carefully today is, let's not over

:17:26.:17:30.

promise. He was critical of what David Cameron has said because it's

:17:30.:17:35.

not deliverable. We will leave it there. Here's another one of those

:17:35.:17:39.

notorious BBC repeats. Everyone is terrified by the euro crisis. The

:17:39.:17:42.

top leaders in Europe get together and decide something must be done

:17:43.:17:47.

to save the euro. They announce something big, but a few days later

:17:47.:17:51.

people decide it wasn't that big after all. Everyone returns to

:17:51.:17:55.

being terrified. Today's big sounding announcement was another

:17:55.:17:57.

�100 billion for investment in growth. Will it make any

:17:57.:18:06.

difference? Here is Paul mason. Confidence in Europe is burning.

:18:06.:18:15.

Time is running out. Men the -- when the IMF says you are facing a,

:18:15.:18:18.

"Critical stage" you had better believe. Christine Lagarde laid

:18:18.:18:23.

down a challenge to the way Europe and, above all, Germany has faced

:18:23.:18:27.

the crisis. She called for immediate concrete steps to form a

:18:27.:18:32.

banking union. For the ECB to begin printing money. An end to

:18:32.:18:37.

austerity-driven bail outs and the direct bail out of the Spanish

:18:37.:18:43.

banks from money from the ESM. In Rome today, at the pre-meeting of

:18:43.:18:48.

the eurozone's four big economies they decided to do none of the

:18:48.:18:52.

above. TRANSLATION: I think that in

:18:52.:18:55.

European politics and culture a new awareness has grown up that growth

:18:55.:19:00.

can be based only on budgetary discipline, but that budgetary

:19:00.:19:04.

discipline is not sustainable economically and politically if

:19:04.:19:09.

there are no possible conditions for growth and employment. Against

:19:09.:19:15.

the rumble of protests across Europe today, the leaders are

:19:15.:19:19.

proposing a stimulus package worth 130 billion euros. It sounds a lot.

:19:20.:19:25.

It's worth 1% of the eurozone's GDP. The political pressure now is on

:19:25.:19:29.

Angela Merkel, asked to release central bail out funds to help

:19:29.:19:35.

Spain she said simply this. TRANSLATION: If I simply gave money

:19:35.:19:39.

to a Spanish bank or other bank I can't say what that bank should

:19:39.:19:42.

change because I'm not responsible, I'm the German Chancellor. I can

:19:43.:19:46.

only say that to my banks. That is the problem I vfplt it's not that I

:19:46.:19:52.

do not want to help, but we set up them under such conditions. That is

:19:52.:20:01.

how we will condition. There is a German word for all that, it is

:20:01.:20:06.

nien. Paul is with me now. How long have they got? Well, month Monti,

:20:06.:20:11.

the Prime Minister of Italy said today, a week to save the euro. He

:20:11.:20:15.

is not normally given to high peshly. That is probably right. We

:20:15.:20:21.

started this week in Mexico at the G20. What happened? The Germans

:20:21.:20:25.

gave a positive signal about two things that everybody knows we need

:20:25.:20:29.

to do. Europe needs to get a decision on. One is banking union.

:20:29.:20:34.

The idea of various steps, whether it is guaranteeing everybody's

:20:34.:20:38.

deposits or pan-European regulation. They have said, they have flagged

:20:38.:20:42.

up very strongly, there will be a deal on that at the end of next

:20:42.:20:45.

week at the summit in Brussels. The thing the Germans have been

:20:45.:20:53.

resisting on, that is using the bail out fund of Europe, to pump

:20:53.:21:00.

money into Europe's banks direct. Merkel had up to now said, no, in

:21:00.:21:04.

Mexico on Monday she said it was possible. The whole of the

:21:04.:21:07.

broadsheet press of the world took that as a signal that, by now, by

:21:07.:21:11.

Friday, in Rome, the scheduled pre- summit we might be hearing some

:21:11.:21:15.

kind of maybe. Instead, as you saw in my package she said, no, we are

:21:15.:21:20.

not going to do it. Now, you can only watch history unfold like a

:21:20.:21:24.

car crash with four drivers, as we have done, and conclude there will

:21:24.:21:28.

be an impact unless they steer away from the problem by next Friday.

:21:28.:21:34.

Well, OK. We are joined now by the Financial Times' Gillian Tett,

:21:34.:21:37.

Maria Margaronis of The Nation and Dr Imke Henkel of Germany's Focus

:21:37.:21:41.

Magazine. Economics first. Does this pre-summit summit get us

:21:41.:21:48.

anywhere at all? We are back to were we where before. Frustration

:21:48.:21:52.

and disappointment in the markets and amongst other world leaders. As

:21:52.:21:56.

Paul says, in Mexico last week there was a feeling there would be

:21:56.:21:59.

a breakthrough. Certainly the Americans have been pushing very,

:21:59.:22:06.

very hard. There were rumours about a five-part plan doing the rounds

:22:06.:22:12.

growth pact, the hopes have been dashed. What we are seeing is that

:22:12.:22:16.

Angela Merkel is caught between a rock and a hard place right now.

:22:16.:22:19.

She is under intense pressure from the markets and international

:22:19.:22:23.

leaders to do something. The political opposition inside Germany

:22:23.:22:27.

itself to bailing out other parts of the eurozone is rising too.

:22:27.:22:31.

that fair. If she is blinking, she is blinking in such a way that

:22:31.:22:36.

people can't really notice it, she is not moving it at all?

:22:36.:22:41.

description is very fair. It is interesting, it is not just the

:22:41.:22:45.

opposition that we used to have that we don't want to pay for it.

:22:45.:22:50.

Which she should have started arguing against far earlier because

:22:50.:22:54.

Germany profited hugely from the euro. She should have brought it in

:22:54.:22:58.

a way to pay it back. There is another position growing this is

:22:59.:23:03.

the fear that is what going to further and further integration

:23:03.:23:10.

will be undemocratic beast. That is quite interesting. The German

:23:10.:23:15.

Parliament will vote end of next week on the fiscal compact. They

:23:15.:23:20.

will pass it. That won't ab problem. The President won't sign it because

:23:20.:23:26.

they are now looming quite a few calls in the constitution court

:23:26.:23:30.

that might bring it down or at least will change it. As the Greeks

:23:30.:23:32.

watch this, also watch the football tonight, perhaps, with the same

:23:33.:23:37.

kind of feeling, you must feel that the politics of this, never mind

:23:37.:23:41.

the economics, is not going your way at all? No, I think the

:23:41.:23:45.

question is people are asking, is how long will European policy be

:23:45.:23:49.

held hostage by German domestic politics. It feels clear the

:23:49.:23:55.

blockage is in Germany. Maybe for forever. Given that rock and the

:23:55.:24:00.

hard place argument Mrs Merkel may not move at all? She may not. If

:24:00.:24:06.

you look further down-the-line, we either have dissenter gracious of

:24:06.:24:10.

the eurozone or greater political union, givenlet gap between the

:24:10.:24:13.

northern and southern countries, which is worse than it was two

:24:13.:24:18.

years ago, how is it going to happen Is the big solution is so

:24:18.:24:24.

elusive, there is no big solution. It's politically impossible. These

:24:24.:24:29.

are nation states remaining nation states and this rhetoric we need

:24:30.:24:36.

more Europe is simply that. Fear is gluing them together. The political

:24:36.:24:42.

elite know if the project falls apart it will be very nasty indeed

:24:42.:24:46.

if Greece leaves the eurozone. You could say the European Union was

:24:46.:24:51.

driven by fear of committing the sins of World War II. A project was

:24:51.:24:54.

designed to heal those wounds. Tragically a project designed to

:24:54.:24:58.

heal the wounds of World War II is re-opening them. Look at all the

:24:58.:25:02.

rhetoric coming out of Germany and Greece right now. A project that is

:25:02.:25:07.

glued together by fear, without any positive vision for the future,

:25:07.:25:10.

it's debilitating. Nobody today in the eurozone doing what you hear

:25:10.:25:13.

from a place like America saying, this is the American dream. What is

:25:13.:25:19.

the European dream today? What is the positive image the voters can

:25:19.:25:25.

cling to. Mrs Merkel will say, it's more Europe. What do Germans think

:25:25.:25:33.

of that? For Germany it's connected to what was said 20 to 30 years ago,

:25:33.:25:39.

more democracy. What Merkel is saying is more Europe is in fact

:25:39.:25:43.

quite contrary. It will be less democracy. It will be... Or some

:25:43.:25:53.
:25:53.:25:53.

people... It's aiming towards an entity that will have augtisim to

:25:53.:25:58.

rule over national budget that will take away sovereignty from national

:25:58.:26:02.

budgets. It will, in the end, have far less democracy and far less

:26:02.:26:06.

rights for the European citizens. The implications of that,

:26:06.:26:09.

presumably if you are sitting in Greece and worried about where the

:26:10.:26:14.

next pay cheque is coming from, is more German control. Where the

:26:15.:26:20.

nationalism comes in More German control and much less democracy.

:26:20.:26:24.

Gillan talks about the wounds of World War II opening up. We have

:26:24.:26:30.

real ghosts for this party called Golden Dawn, beating migrants on

:26:30.:26:34.

the streets and working hand in hand in Athens with the police and

:26:34.:26:39.

is very frightening indeed. Do you think your country is a democracy?

:26:39.:26:45.

No, I don't. Not at this point. The economic programme imposed on

:26:45.:26:49.

Greece was not designed. They are not choosen. The last election was

:26:49.:26:54.

fought on the grounds of fear. Two German newspapers published Greek

:26:54.:26:59.

editorials in Greeks telling Greeks which way to vote as if they were

:26:59.:27:04.

dropping leaflets on an occupied city. I'm sure that went down

:27:04.:27:09.

really well. I wonder if they know what they are doing. We learnt

:27:09.:27:11.

after Lehman Brothers collapsed that extraordinarily unexpected

:27:11.:27:13.

things can happen in financial and economic terms. What we are

:27:13.:27:17.

learning right now in Europe is that something extraordinarily

:27:17.:27:20.

unexpected things can happen in political terms too. Who would have

:27:20.:27:23.

imagined, think back a year or two years ago, just as we find it

:27:23.:27:29.

impossible to imagine a big bank collapsing, who would imagine that

:27:29.:27:33.

this think you are hearing about in Greece and Germany could have

:27:33.:27:37.

happened. It's extraordinary. Just how much further can it go?

:27:37.:27:42.

other terror in Germany, apart from not having a sound currency, it

:27:42.:27:49.

produces political extremism in Germany itself? In Germany itself

:27:49.:27:53.

as well. Political extremism isn't a big danger in Germany. We have

:27:54.:27:58.

other parties who are more funny than extreme. I wonder, I say you

:27:58.:28:03.

are quite right in asking that, does Merkel, do they know what is

:28:03.:28:08.

going on in Greece? Do they really feel that they might be responsible

:28:08.:28:15.

for the Greek right and -- right emerging and becoming more popular.

:28:15.:28:18.

We watched the football tonight when we were trying to do work.

:28:18.:28:21.

When you see Angela Merkel celebrating, as is her right, she

:28:21.:28:25.

is a German Chancellor, supporting a German team. Do you think that

:28:25.:28:29.

gets, that in itself strikes a serious raw nerve as well in

:28:29.:28:34.

Greece? I don't think it's so much Angela Merkel celebrating. People

:28:34.:28:37.

in Greece feel so ground down. So exClarence Housed at this point

:28:37.:28:41.

that the football has a symbolic meaning. I was in Athens last week

:28:41.:28:45.

when Greece beat Russia. There was this moment of, kind of, a day

:28:45.:28:49.

before the election. Somebody sitting next to me in a cafe said,

:28:50.:28:58.

"If we win the party will win tomorrow" of course they didn't. It

:28:58.:29:04.

will be depressing for the Greeks. Paul, your sense of this. Listening

:29:04.:29:09.

to what Mario Monti had to say and the politicians getting it in the

:29:10.:29:16.

neck now. Is this when economic unrest is spreading into a wider

:29:16.:29:19.

political discontent? What Maria Margaronis said there, I spent the

:29:19.:29:27.

last two weeks in Spain and Greece, you are right there is a tangible

:29:27.:29:30.

fear of being beaten up and the police standing back and doing

:29:30.:29:34.

nothing. The Greeks voted for parties that were Europeanists.

:29:34.:29:40.

Even the left party, Europeanists. If the Europeans abandon them, what

:29:40.:29:44.

an example to Spain, which is next up. We will have to leave it there.

:29:44.:29:48.

In a minute Kirstie will be presenting the Review Show from

:29:48.:29:54.

Glasgow. What do we have? Tonight, it's move over Malcolm Tucker the

:29:54.:30:01.

Veet is coming through. Julie Walters as a hippie trippy old in

:30:01.:30:06.

Labour want to lower the number of foreigners a company can employ. Practical policy or just noise? And another day, another Euro summit. With Gavin Esler.


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