Browse content similar to 11/07/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Tonight, our banking model is broken, so how do we fix it? We're | :00:14. | :00:20. | |
above London's financial district to take a panoramic view, with the | :00:20. | :00:23. | |
Treasury Minister, Mark Hoban, an expert panel, and an audience of | :00:23. | :00:27. | |
City insiders. After the LIBOR crisis, is this the moment the | :00:27. | :00:36. | |
system is finally changed? It might be you need some sort of state- | :00:36. | :00:40. | |
backed institution to lend to longer term project that is are | :00:40. | :00:43. | |
difficult for private entrepeneurs to discount the returns on. I think | :00:43. | :00:47. | |
there is a case for all of those in a modern society. We will be | :00:47. | :00:50. | |
discussing what's wrong with the banks and trying to work out | :00:50. | :00:54. | |
whether there's an alternative to the way we do things now. | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
Also tonight, after a massive rebellion by Tory MPs on Lords | :00:57. | :01:01. | |
reform, it looks like the coalition's not responding. Or at | :01:01. | :01:06. | |
least not as it should. Does it need to shut down or be rebooted, | :01:06. | :01:10. | |
for trust to be re-established. coalition Government is moving | :01:10. | :01:13. | |
beyond, outside the original coalition agreement I think really | :01:13. | :01:17. | |
for party unity, and also in the national interest, it is important, | :01:17. | :01:21. | |
as with many other countries, that the agreement is reviewed mid-term. | :01:21. | :01:25. | |
The British company that made a fortune round the world selling | :01:25. | :01:28. | |
bomb detectors that didn't work. A Newsnight exclusive report. Now the | :01:28. | :01:38. | |
:01:38. | :01:42. | ||
police bring charges. Good evening. A cesspit, that's how | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
one Bank of England boss described the LIBOR scandal this week, and | :01:46. | :01:51. | |
it's not over. Bob Diamond, the former Barclays boss, hit back at | :01:51. | :01:56. | |
MPs today, saying claims he misled them were unfounded and "terribly | :01:56. | :02:00. | |
unfair". But it's now likely Mr Diamond will have to testify on | :02:00. | :02:05. | |
Capitol Hill, and meanwhile here, on this hill, this ancient, | :02:05. | :02:07. | |
venerable city behind me, there is pressure for faster and bigger | :02:07. | :02:14. | |
reform of the banks. But what kind of change? How will it come? In a | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
moment we will discuss things, where they go next, with a minister, | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
our panel of experts, and a small audience of people with, as they | :02:21. | :02:25. | |
say here in the City, skin in the game. | :02:25. | :02:30. | |
First, to the people at the cold face, starting with one banker, all | :02:30. | :02:39. | |
too notorious, in the business. Just like the bar it is set in, the | :02:39. | :02:44. | |
Alex cartoon, currently in the Telegraph, is a City institution. | :02:44. | :02:48. | |
But for the sharp-shouldered finance types, real and fictional, | :02:48. | :02:53. | |
the world is changing. I think the LIBOR scandal may be the last straw. | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
I think it has proved the straw that broke the camel's back. This | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
man, who writes the Alex cartoons, is all too aware of the impact of | :03:01. | :03:05. | |
the latest LIBOR scandal. Suddenly, there's all this focus on the City, | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
they are in the public eye, and Alex used to like that, he used to | :03:08. | :03:15. | |
like common people looking at his Porsche, and his suit and being | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
impressed by it. Now he doesn't like the scrutiny any more. | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
doesn't want to be scrutinised at all? Not the way he's being | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
scrutinised right now. And the change is not just coming from | :03:26. | :03:34. | |
regulators any more. Since the LIBOR scandal started two things | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
have changed, politicians have had it up to here with the banks, and | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
to regulation and rhetoric the gloves are off. And secondly, | :03:43. | :03:46. | |
ordinary savers have started to vote with their feet. Since January | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
half a million people have moved their money out of the five big | :03:49. | :03:55. | |
banks and into ethical, mutual, or local banks. In the past two weeks, | :03:55. | :04:04. | |
the Coe op has seen a 25% in-- Oc- Op has seen 25% increase. Ethical | :04:04. | :04:09. | |
banks are report ago 200% increase. LIBOR, it seems, has brought City | :04:09. | :04:12. | |
dodginess into the lives of millions. | :04:12. | :04:15. | |
People are obviously very upset about bonuses, they are concerned | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
about SME lending, they are concerned about stability and the | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
integrity of the financial system. What LIBOR has done is it has made | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
them start to question whether they are paying a fair price for the | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
products and services which they rely on, their mortgages, their | :04:29. | :04:34. | |
loans, their childrens' student loans and pension pots. They can | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
see their personal decision to bank with bank that is a mainstream | :04:37. | :04:43. | |
provider is starting to impact on the macro level concern. But could | :04:43. | :04:46. | |
Britain really switch to an alternative type of banking, | :04:46. | :04:51. | |
focused on people and businesses with non-astro no mamic bonuses, on | :04:51. | :04:56. | |
a human scale? Anne Paul's house was damp and cold, she needed a | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
loan to renovate it, she worked for a bank, but no bank would lend her | :05:00. | :05:04. | |
the money at affordable rates, despite her being a homeowner. | :05:04. | :05:10. | |
the winter, my son would see things, look mum, that wall isn't very good. | :05:10. | :05:16. | |
I would say we would try to put something in front of it and do the | :05:16. | :05:22. | |
best you can. Now she has the money from something called the London | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
Rebuilding Society a community- funded finance scheme. They have | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
changed their approach as seeing the customer as an individual, not | :05:29. | :05:34. | |
one of their customers just. It was this disconnect between Britain's | :05:34. | :05:39. | |
massive banks and the needs of people, that the Vickers report was | :05:39. | :05:44. | |
supposed to address. Only ring- fenced banks would supply the core | :05:44. | :05:49. | |
domestic retail banking services, taking deposits from individuals | :05:49. | :05:53. | |
and small businesses and extending overdrafts to them. Vickers | :05:53. | :05:57. | |
mandated Lloyd's to sell 650 branchs to encourage competition, | :05:57. | :06:02. | |
and he made one big proposal about the structure of our banks. The | :06:02. | :06:05. | |
Vickers' proposals would split the banks internally, but some | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
politicians want to go further, and separate retail and investment | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
banking completely. And, you have to whisper it in place like this, | :06:12. | :06:18. | |
there is even a proposal to abolish leverage, completely. | :06:18. | :06:21. | |
Leverage means a bank borrowing money against the cash it holds, | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
lots of it. And the problem is, it can go wrong for boring banks as | :06:25. | :06:30. | |
well as risky ones. The problem is the good bank is going to be invest | :06:30. | :06:37. | |
anything good assets, which can go bad. Which can become bad assets, | :06:37. | :06:43. | |
just like Italian bonds used to be very safe assets, and Lehman | :06:43. | :06:48. | |
Brothers' bonds were safe assets, now they are bad assets. The more | :06:48. | :06:53. | |
radical solution is known as "limited purpose banking", it was | :06:53. | :06:58. | |
considered as a blue skies option under Vickers, and then discarded. | :06:58. | :07:02. | |
Its designer thinks it is the only way forward. There is 10,000 | :07:02. | :07:08. | |
separate mutual funds in the US. The ones 100% equifinanced had no | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
trouble in the crisis. If you don't borrow any money you can't go broke. | :07:11. | :07:15. | |
If you have a financial system consisting of a lot of little | :07:15. | :07:21. | |
mutual funds, none of which are leveraged or borrowed, none of them | :07:21. | :07:26. | |
can fail. The plan says simply, all regulated banks, investment furnds, | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
hedge funds et cetera, become mutually owned. So your savings | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
account becomes like an investment, and it can be lent out to | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
businesses. But the bank itself can't go to the markets and borrow | :07:36. | :07:41. | |
money. To the extent that households and firms need to borrow, | :07:41. | :07:48. | |
to buy homes, or to invest in new products, that's where the real | :07:48. | :07:54. | |
advantage of leverage comes from in economics. It is not to have the | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
financial intermediaries to borrow and gamble. We don't need the | :07:58. | :08:04. | |
intermediaries to be leveraged. This week has not been happy for | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
the image of the City. Here is how the man who regulates it described | :08:08. | :08:12. | |
the LIBOR market. We can't be confident in anything after | :08:12. | :08:20. | |
learning about this. This cesspit. How did that go down? Jim O'Neil | :08:20. | :08:27. | |
manages �780 -- $780 billion of others money e manages the part of | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
Goldman Sachs that manages people's savings and pension funds. Do you | :08:30. | :08:35. | |
do people feel about this rush of negativity going on? Understandably | :08:35. | :08:39. | |
and justifiably some of the emotional language being used, | :08:39. | :08:45. | |
there is quite a bit of annoyance. The City ranges from people that | :08:45. | :08:50. | |
are doing jobs probably that most normal people don't get bonuses or | :08:50. | :08:56. | |
get paid that much, to those that are victimised in the populist | :08:56. | :09:01. | |
current mood. You have British institutions, whose prime purpose | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
is to support Britain's economy and Britain's role in the world. And | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
then you have a much larger number of institutions which includes | :09:09. | :09:14. | |
parts of those British institutions, whose purpose is primarily because | :09:15. | :09:19. | |
of the time zone, the English language, and serving the world's | :09:19. | :09:25. | |
needs. And they don't have to be in London. Despite that threat, he's | :09:25. | :09:31. | |
simple theyic to a bigger division of labour -- sympathetic to a | :09:31. | :09:34. | |
bigger division of labour in banking, and would go further on | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
one issue. With the most basic of lending to individuals and | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
companies, you need utility-type banks, and it looks like Vickers | :09:42. | :09:47. | |
has recognised that. We certainly need, despite the mood, investment | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
banks, now being divided as casino banks. You need those that can take | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
risks and risky things, you just don't need them to be big enough to | :09:55. | :09:58. | |
cause enormous problems. And it might well be that you need some | :09:58. | :10:05. | |
sort of state-backed institution, particularly to lend to longer term | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
projects, which are difficult for private entrepeneurs to discount | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
the returns on. Hold on a minute, we have the boss of Goldman Sachs, | :10:13. | :10:18. | |
saying it might be a good idea, if the state owned a bank? Well, I | :10:18. | :10:23. | |
think if you look around the world, some of the countries that have | :10:23. | :10:29. | |
with stood the crisis the best, happen to have those. | :10:29. | :10:34. | |
He has impuned my integrity. bankers, the politicians, and the | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
regulators have a massive image problem, formerly a cosy elite, | :10:39. | :10:44. | |
they are now finger-pointing like crazy as the anger mouoints. How is | :10:44. | :10:50. | |
this going down with the City's most iconic banker. Is he worried? | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
I think he has an escape plan somewhere. Where will he go? They | :10:54. | :10:59. | |
are all buying defensible land, they think there will be civil | :10:59. | :11:04. | |
unrest, they are buying private islands where they can have a | :11:04. | :11:08. | |
primary army on them. What is for sure, is that this particular | :11:08. | :11:18. | |
:11:18. | :11:19. | ||
island no longer feels the same about the money men. Joining me | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
here, with the City behind us, is Mark Hoban, secretary to the | :11:23. | :11:27. | |
Treasury. People are moving their money out of the high street banks, | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
and you heard there, a lot of people in the City behind us, most | :11:30. | :11:35. | |
of whom are honest people, furious with some of the emotive language | :11:35. | :11:38. | |
coming out of parliament about this industry. You are the Financial | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
Secretary, what are you doing about it? We are doing a range of things, | :11:42. | :11:47. | |
we are implementing the proposals of the Vickers Commission, to ring- | :11:47. | :11:52. | |
fence retail banks. Eventually? line with the timetable Vickers | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
announced. We are organise ago major overhaul of the financial | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
system in the City, we are promoting competition in the | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
banking sector to encourage more people to shop around. And they | :12:03. | :12:11. | |
are? And last Friday, we pubished a paper in the society sector toe | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
make them more attractive. And Lloyds Bank is negotiating the sale | :12:15. | :12:22. | |
of 650 branches to the Co-Op. many branches will that leave for | :12:22. | :12:25. | |
the big five remaining banks? will still have significant market | :12:25. | :12:30. | |
share, the key thing is to ensure there are new challenges in the | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
market. We sold Northern Rock to Virgin Money, we need to make it | :12:33. | :12:38. | |
easier for people to move their bank accounts. And the Independent | :12:38. | :12:40. | |
Commission on Banking made proposal about doing that. And people can | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
shift their money easier, and we can see a flourishing competitive | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
landscape. That will keep bankers' on their toes. It hasn't so far, | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
they are not on their toes? That is why we are starting the process. We | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
are also looking at the regulation of the City. We are giving the | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
financial conduct authority, the conduct regulator, much bigger | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
powers, more teeth, more intrusiveness. We saw some of that | :13:01. | :13:08. | |
the week before last, when it introduced measures to compensate | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
businesses who had been mis-sold complex interest rate ops. The this | :13:11. | :13:17. | |
year, in April, we had Barclays and the FSA in a bit of a conversation. | :13:17. | :13:21. | |
The FSA told Barclays they were aggressively, they had an | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
aggressive pattern of effectively pushing the rules beyond acceptable | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
limits. This was done, presumably, in private, I'm presuming, did you | :13:29. | :13:34. | |
know about that? The regulator is independent. They don't come to the | :13:34. | :13:37. | |
regulators and say one of the British banks is pushing the rules | :13:37. | :13:41. | |
here? We have an independent regulator, we make sure they have | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
the powers they need to take action. That is why one of the regulations | :13:44. | :13:46. | |
going through parliament at the moment, we are giving the Bank of | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
England and the financial conduct authority much more powers to take | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
action to tackle some of these practices. Hold a minute, we see, | :13:53. | :13:57. | |
now, thanks to the freedom of information requests, the way that | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
e-mails fly around on an hourly basis between Whitehall and the FSA | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
and the Bank of England and these banks. Are you seriously telling me | :14:04. | :14:06. | |
that the Government had no idea there was something wrong at | :14:07. | :14:11. | |
Barclays, which the FSA had actually identified? Look, you know, | :14:11. | :14:14. | |
the FSA is responsible for regulating financial services. | :14:15. | :14:19. | |
say they had no idea? We know what they are responsible? I don't think | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
you would like it Paul if Government ministers interfered in | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
the financial regulation of independent businesses t has to be | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
done independently at arm's length. We have to make sure they have the | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
powers they need to tackle wrongdoing in the City, we are | :14:32. | :14:36. | |
doing that. The point seems to be to outside observers, that the | :14:36. | :14:39. | |
Government is consistently behind the curve on these things, were you | :14:39. | :14:44. | |
shocked when you suddenly found out that LIBOR had been manipulated by | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
this major British bank, were you shocked? The reality is this | :14:48. | :14:50. | |
Government is taking action to reform depings service, and | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
Meredith Vickers said we are leading the world in attempts to | :14:54. | :14:57. | |
reform -- John Vickers said we are leading the world in attempts to | :14:57. | :15:01. | |
reform the banking system. That is why when we found out what was | :15:01. | :15:07. | |
going on in Barclays and LIBOR, we got the report done, how to | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
regulate LIBOR in the future, and how to ensure there are criminal | :15:10. | :15:13. | |
sanctions in place to prevent it happening to LIBOR again. We are | :15:13. | :15:17. | |
taking action to sort out this mess and make sure we have a City people | :15:17. | :15:25. | |
can be proud of. And one place that employees, it employs two million | :15:25. | :15:28. | |
people across the country, to make sure it thrives and service the | :15:28. | :15:33. | |
economy. We know it is an important employer, and we know that the | :15:33. | :15:36. | |
Vickers proposals may not have stopped what was going on in | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
Barclays. That the structure wasn't going to be stopped by creating a | :15:40. | :15:44. | |
ring-fence inside it, it was failure of regulation and | :15:44. | :15:47. | |
management. What more can you do, than what Vickers, what you have | :15:47. | :15:52. | |
accepted from Vickers, what more can you do to assure the British | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
public that there won't be mother banks like this, after, eventually | :15:56. | :16:02. | |
in 2019, Vickers is implemented? Vickers is range of things we are | :16:02. | :16:04. | |
doing to sort out the financial sector. It won't be enough in | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
itself to solve the problems, that is why we are radically reforming | :16:08. | :16:11. | |
financial regulation and giving the Bank of England more powers T will | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
take over the division of banks t will use its jupltd to intervene | :16:15. | :16:18. | |
and act. That is what people - judgment to intervene and act. That | :16:18. | :16:24. | |
is what people want to see. We have set up parliamentary inquiry on so. | :16:24. | :16:29. | |
Brorder issues flowing from the LIBOR-fixing scandal, -- broader | :16:29. | :16:33. | |
issues flowing from the LIBOR- fixing scandal. Something Vickers | :16:33. | :16:40. | |
has drawn back you will accept? What the parliamentary ip inquiry | :16:40. | :16:46. | |
is looking at is the ethic -- parliamentary inquiry is looking at | :16:46. | :16:50. | |
is the ethics in the banking system. There is a range of steps taking, | :16:50. | :16:55. | |
to change the banking structure and regulatory system, we have | :16:55. | :16:57. | |
identified problems that need to be tackled. You have given more power | :16:57. | :17:02. | |
to the Bank of England, your own colleague, Mr Andrew Tyrie, said to | :17:02. | :17:05. | |
the deputy Governor of the Bank of England, this week, this does not | :17:05. | :17:10. | |
look good, they have missed the Barclays LIBOR manipulation, | :17:10. | :17:15. | |
despite discussion it at committee in 2007. Do you think it looks good | :17:15. | :17:18. | |
the way the Government has handled the LIBOR communication? We need to | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
learn the lessons that are going on, that is why we need to act. People | :17:22. | :17:25. | |
want to see the action and see the mess sorted out. Thank you. Stick | :17:25. | :17:30. | |
around for main. We are going to talk to our panel of experts. I'm | :17:30. | :17:35. | |
joined by our panel to discuss their thoughts on how to fix our | :17:35. | :17:37. | |
broken banks. Martin Wolf, the Financial Times journalist, who sat | :17:37. | :17:43. | |
on the Vickers' commission. We have a specialist in industrial policy, | :17:43. | :17:48. | |
and from the industry body City UK, Chris Cummings. | :17:48. | :17:52. | |
Chris Cummings, the reputation of this industry is in shreds, despite, | :17:52. | :17:57. | |
as I say, the vast majority of the people working in it being honest, | :17:57. | :18:01. | |
hard working, talented people. What are you do about it? I think there | :18:01. | :18:06. | |
are a range of things we can do. Let me first of all say the fact | :18:06. | :18:09. | |
that some people tried to rig LIBOR is completely unacceptable. | :18:09. | :18:14. | |
Wrongdoing has happened, it has been traced by the regulator, and | :18:14. | :18:18. | |
the banks involved have co-operated. I come back to the point that you | :18:18. | :18:21. | |
made, this industry is a national employer, two million people work | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
in financial services, two-thirds of those outside London. This is | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
actually a national industry. Something that we want our public | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
to be proud of tkpwhin. We want our employees to be -- again. We want | :18:32. | :18:36. | |
employees to be proud of. Yes we want to work with the regulator and | :18:36. | :18:39. | |
the Government, in order to address these problems. But actually, what | :18:39. | :18:45. | |
we need to be inculcating is a reputation where it is not enough | :18:45. | :18:50. | |
to obey the rules, we have to do the right thing, that is more | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
important. Presumably you will stop quibbling about Vickers, and | :18:54. | :18:58. | |
spending money on lobbyists to tweak the edges of the Vickers' | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
proposals to become more acceptable to members S that a promise? | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
industry is working very closely with Vickers. We know, and the | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
result is it is watered down? is a range of views out there. | :19:09. | :19:12. | |
There are certain things we want to see s and working with the | :19:12. | :19:15. | |
timetable laid out. I think it is for the industry to prove good | :19:15. | :19:19. | |
faith, that is really what we have been doing. You will accept it, in | :19:19. | :19:24. | |
full, you will stop the rear guard action, you will accept the | :19:24. | :19:30. | |
implications, your members will, of a fairly hard, eventual 2019, break | :19:30. | :19:34. | |
within these banks. They won't be gaining that? We need proposals | :19:34. | :19:39. | |
that work in practice what can look like rear guard action, is actually | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
significant discussions on the detail to make sure we have a | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
banking system that is as robust that everybody wants to see, but | :19:46. | :19:48. | |
which still enables small businesses to get the loans they | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
want to see, individuals to get the banking services they want. That is | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
the heart of the industry's discussion with regulators and | :19:56. | :20:03. | |
Government, on highly complex and technical matters. The senior bosss | :20:03. | :20:06. | |
in your industry spend considerable time in dinners together, they have | :20:06. | :20:12. | |
time and privacy. When they do this, do they discuss the culture at all. | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
If so, why are they constantly shocked when it is revealed that a | :20:15. | :20:20. | |
whole desk worth of people n this bank or other, is fiddling the | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
system. Do they ever do anything about the culture. Do they even | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
recognise it? Talk to any chief executive, in the City or across | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
the country today, whether that's in banking, insurance, whether in | :20:30. | :20:34. | |
Asset Management, in pensions. The one thing that everybody is | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
concerned about these days is delivering a better culture. One | :20:38. | :20:41. | |
that focuses on helping people get the loans they need, the savings | :20:41. | :20:45. | |
that they want, and small businesses. So it really is at the | :20:45. | :20:48. | |
heart of matters today. We will come back to you. | :20:48. | :20:53. | |
You sat on this Vickers' commission, could it have stopped what happened | :20:53. | :20:57. | |
at Barclays? No, they weren't designed to. They were asked to | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
look at the structure of the banking system to make it more | :21:01. | :21:05. | |
resilient, and to improve competition. I think we have given | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
sensible recommendations on that. There are many matters of the | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
conduct of financial institutions, which is essentially what this is | :21:13. | :21:16. | |
about, which clearly didn't fall been that view. There were | :21:16. | :21:20. | |
important issues that were affected by global and European regulation, | :21:20. | :21:24. | |
which we obviously couldn't do anything about, so we focused very | :21:24. | :21:28. | |
clearly on what we were asked to look at, and this sort of behaviour | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
would not have been eliminated by that. That's for somebody else to | :21:32. | :21:37. | |
look after, as you said, that is a profound cultural issue, we weren't | :21:37. | :21:42. | |
asked to sort out the culture of banks. We have a regulatory | :21:43. | :21:46. | |
structure where the Bank of England sits on top of it, you saw Paul | :21:46. | :21:51. | |
Tucker at the committee, it didn't look very good, Andrew Tyrie, the | :21:51. | :21:57. | |
chair of it. The regulatory system, do we have the new one up to | :21:57. | :22:04. | |
scratch to learn about further malfesiants? It is absolutely clear | :22:04. | :22:08. | |
that the ball slipped between all these hands. Now it is absolutely | :22:08. | :22:13. | |
clear who is responsible, pretty well, it is the bank. The bank, | :22:13. | :22:18. | |
before the crisis, basically wanted to get rid of regulation, they | :22:18. | :22:20. | |
weren'ted interested. Now they surely are interested. I don't | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
think look -- they weren't interested, now they surely are | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
interested, I don't think looking at the past will tell us what to do. | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
I would expect regulation for the next ten or 15 years to be really | :22:31. | :22:36. | |
fierce, everybody knows how stupid they look as a result of these | :22:36. | :22:41. | |
series of catastrophys. The horse has bolted. You heard Jim O'Neil of | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
Goldman Sachs, surprisingly to me, suggest a state investment bank, | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
this is something you and the people you work with in your | :22:47. | :22:52. | |
research proposed. What would it do and add to the mix. We have heard | :22:52. | :22:55. | |
people leaving mainstream banks, why do you need a state one? | :22:55. | :23:01. | |
two different reasons. One is the one we have been hearing there, a | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
counter cyclical lender, because private banks and businesses lend | :23:04. | :23:07. | |
or spend too much during the booms and too little during the bust. You | :23:07. | :23:13. | |
need the counter cyclical state policy in terms of bank lending. | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
What is not said is you also need a state investment bank, we are | :23:17. | :23:23. | |
seeing that in China and Brazil, to provide courageous capital in high- | :23:23. | :23:26. | |
risk areas. What is interesting, is these investment bankers, as well | :23:26. | :23:32. | |
as venture capitalists, talk about themselves as loving risks, they | :23:32. | :23:34. | |
are entreprenurial, they are out there to look at the great types of | :23:35. | :23:39. | |
investment that is might actually be nurturing long-term growth. If | :23:40. | :23:44. | |
you look at where they have been investing, it is not in areas that | :23:44. | :23:48. | |
created Silicone Valley. What would you do on the wider issue. You are | :23:48. | :23:51. | |
somebody who is listened to people on both sides of parliament, for | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
the wider issue of the industry, what is the number one thing would | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
have to happen now? We have open up the debate about a state investment | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
bank. We have the RBS, which is the skeleton there that we could | :24:03. | :24:07. | |
transform very quickly. The point is not again just to talk about an | :24:07. | :24:10. | |
institution and say where weather it is good ored bad, it is about | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
the ecology of what type of banking system we need, to provide the | :24:14. | :24:17. | |
patient and committed finance. That, by the way. If we look at the | :24:18. | :24:21. | |
eurozone, why is Germany so competitive? Why is it a surplus | :24:21. | :24:24. | |
country, where as Portugal, Italy and Greece are in this terrible | :24:25. | :24:30. | |
situation? They have a state investment bank as well as these | :24:30. | :24:35. | |
regional banks that have been lending, not only counter | :24:35. | :24:39. | |
cyclically, but also better companies. | :24:39. | :24:45. | |
You think it is a rubbish idea, what do you think? I think some of | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
those banks are the worst in the world. I started my life in | :24:48. | :24:52. | |
development, I recognise the good cases, there have been some very | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
good state investment banks, and there have been a lot of | :24:55. | :25:00. | |
unbelievably bad ones. If you promise me it will be a very good | :25:00. | :25:06. | |
bank in the UK, state investment, I wouldn't buy it, I wouldn't be | :25:06. | :25:11. | |
easily convinced of it. A couple of members of the audience. Gemma, you | :25:11. | :25:16. | |
work for a wealth manager, Brooks McDonald, how does this feel to you, | :25:16. | :25:19. | |
your colleagues out there watching this tonight and crying into their | :25:19. | :25:24. | |
champagne, what does it feel like? Banks need to earn back our respect, | :25:24. | :25:30. | |
but we can't use a sledgehammer to correct a house of cards. The | :25:30. | :25:35. | |
challenge is that low level regulation hasn't worked, but | :25:35. | :25:38. | |
heavy-handed regulation could be as damaging, and hit the man on the | :25:38. | :25:44. | |
street hardest, in terms of higher borrowing costs, reduced credit | :25:44. | :25:46. | |
availability, and potential job losses as well. You are | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
representing Move Your Money, people winding up this getting your | :25:50. | :25:53. | |
money out of Barclays, et cetera. What would you say to the | :25:53. | :25:59. | |
Government right now? I would say to listen to customers, half a | :25:59. | :26:03. | |
million people have moved their money this year already, out of the | :26:03. | :26:07. | |
big high street banks, and into alternatives, like mutuals, local | :26:07. | :26:12. | |
Credit Unions, and ethical banks. I would ask the Government to carry | :26:12. | :26:20. | |
on making it easier for people to move their money, and to release | :26:20. | :26:23. | |
regulations that make it hard for these banks. They work for local | :26:23. | :26:27. | |
communities, and for the UK economy, to make it easier for them to grow. | :26:27. | :26:31. | |
We will come back to you Mark Hoban in a moment. I wonder if anybody | :26:31. | :26:37. | |
else on the panel, there is an he can sis tension problem here, we | :26:37. | :26:40. | |
all -- existential problem here, we know these guys are struggling to | :26:40. | :26:43. | |
try to defend the industry, which is a strategic industry for this | :26:43. | :26:47. | |
country, like it or not. Not doing a great job of it, let's put it | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
that way. What would you do, what is the number one thing you would | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
do to bring the situation to a head? I think that we should | :26:53. | :26:57. | |
implement our proposals in full. And there are some important areas | :26:57. | :27:00. | |
where they weren't being implemented in full. One of the | :27:00. | :27:04. | |
most important, which directly relates to a scandal, you mentioned, | :27:04. | :27:08. | |
is we felt retail banks, should not be selling derivatives to people | :27:08. | :27:13. | |
who don't understand them. That is exactly what has happened in this | :27:13. | :27:18. | |
very important case, and the Government has, unfortunately, | :27:18. | :27:21. | |
ignored that recommendation F we implement the proposals in full, it | :27:21. | :27:24. | |
will make a difference in the determine to how the banks operate. | :27:24. | :27:33. | |
There is a danger if we accept rate -- separate commercial and | :27:33. | :27:39. | |
investment banking, we are assuming small businesses will use the small | :27:39. | :27:43. | |
banks, we need investment. We need to ask what sort of companies we | :27:43. | :27:50. | |
want in the country, innovative companies that are producing jobs. | :27:50. | :27:52. | |
Most SMEs don't create net employment, there is a small | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
percentage of them, these high- growth, innovative companies, they | :27:56. | :27:59. | |
need proper investment banking, they are not going to be satisfied | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
by low-scale commercial banks. are out of time. Quickly to throw | :28:03. | :28:06. | |
this to Mark Hoban. You do recognise this is a turning point, | :28:06. | :28:10. | |
it has been a torrid couple of weeks for the place behind me and | :28:10. | :28:13. | |
people who keep their money in banks? It has been a difficult few | :28:13. | :28:18. | |
weeks. The important thing is tone sure we take the action needed, -- | :28:18. | :28:22. | |
to ensure we take the action needed so the banks with underpin the | :28:22. | :28:26. | |
economy, they can lend money to businesses, take long-term | :28:26. | :28:29. | |
decisions to promote growth, to offer good deals to consumers. We | :28:30. | :28:33. | |
want to see people shop around, so there is more competition on the | :28:33. | :28:36. | |
high street and businesses. Let's get a better outcome for the city, | :28:36. | :28:40. | |
and the two million people across the UK who work in financial | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
services. We all live in hope for all of that. That is all from us | :28:44. | :28:47. | |
here in the Financial Times building in central London. Thanks | :28:47. | :28:53. | |
to all my guest, back to you in the studio. | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
Maybe it is that tetchy, end of term feeling, at the close of a | :28:57. | :29:00. | |
parliamentary session. As MPs prepare to leave for their holidays, | :29:00. | :29:03. | |
their grumpiness over Lords reform turned to questions about the very | :29:03. | :29:07. | |
future of the coalition Government itself. The Prime Minister told his | :29:07. | :29:11. | |
MPs today that he make one more attempt to win them over on Lords | :29:11. | :29:15. | |
reform in the autumn, and then draw a line and move on. Liberal | :29:15. | :29:19. | |
Democrats do have the nuclear option of bringing down the whole | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
coalition, with potentially dire consequences for their party in any | :29:22. | :29:25. | |
general election. What happens now? Our political editor, Allegra | :29:25. | :29:31. | |
Stratton is here. Are they all could have chillaxing this summer? | :29:31. | :29:35. | |
What I find interesting is the Olympics and Jubilee, were always, | :29:35. | :29:40. | |
the people like me were told, is the rebooting moment for the | :29:40. | :29:45. | |
coalition and a feeling of happy Britain, Richard Curtis-esque, and | :29:46. | :29:48. | |
the Prime Minister would preside over it, it would be great moment | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
for the coalition and trying to achieve majorities in the future | :29:51. | :29:55. | |
for the Prime Minister. And what will happen with the Olympics is | :29:55. | :29:58. | |
you and I will be watching it, but the machinery of the Conservatives | :29:58. | :30:02. | |
will have to press very hard on the Tory rebels that rebelled in such | :30:02. | :30:06. | |
large numbers last night, to get them on to side. We got a sense of | :30:06. | :30:08. | |
it in our discussion last night with David Laws and others, that | :30:08. | :30:11. | |
they weren't going to leave this, they were going to come back. You | :30:11. | :30:14. | |
have had, this evening, the Prime Minister say, we are going to have | :30:14. | :30:19. | |
one last try. Somebody described it to me, when you are trying to | :30:19. | :30:23. | |
figure out what the grounds for consensus will be, it is incredibly | :30:23. | :30:27. | |
difficult, they say a 3-D chess board being shaken, there is so | :30:27. | :30:30. | |
many different interests and grounds for consensus that may or | :30:30. | :30:33. | |
may not be possible. That is what the Prime Minister and his team | :30:33. | :30:36. | |
will be trying to figure out over the summer. I don't suppose anybody | :30:36. | :30:39. | |
seriously thinks the Government will end, or the coalition will end. | :30:39. | :30:44. | |
But there is a risk of tit for tat meanness, point scoring on both | :30:44. | :30:49. | |
sides? I think that the Liberal Democrats believe if they don't get | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
Lords reform there won't be boundaries. This brings us back to | :30:53. | :30:57. | |
the idea of how the Tories think they will get their majority in the | :30:57. | :31:01. | |
future. Boundary review is very important for them, they think it | :31:01. | :31:04. | |
delivers them anything between 15- 20 MPs t makes it more difficult | :31:04. | :31:08. | |
for Labour to win majorities in the future. The Liberal Democrats are | :31:08. | :31:13. | |
saying we will simply block that. They don't mind if the public think | :31:13. | :31:22. | |
that is at this timeor at that time, that could also be -- think that | :31:22. | :31:30. | |
could be tit for tat, they think that could be construed as strength. | :31:30. | :31:33. | |
What about Ed Miliband? principle he's in favour, he's | :31:33. | :31:36. | |
having a good summer, but he's blocking it because of the | :31:36. | :31:41. | |
practicalities of this. For some that is not edifying politics. | :31:41. | :31:45. | |
molt we will hear from three politic -- in a moment they will | :31:45. | :31:53. | |
hear from three political insiders. And now an issue rarely centre of | :31:53. | :31:57. | |
how MPs are dealing with it. You might have noticed there have | :31:57. | :32:00. | |
been a few gliches with the coalition recently, little problems | :32:00. | :32:04. | |
with the budget, little disagreements over Europe. | :32:04. | :32:07. | |
Problems with the LIBOR scandal, and last night, of course, that | :32:07. | :32:12. | |
battle over Lords reform. Time, some believe, for something | :32:12. | :32:18. | |
of a coalition reboot. Now is a good time to have a cool, | :32:18. | :32:21. | |
calm reflection, on what remain of the coalition, by taking it and | :32:22. | :32:24. | |
having a review of the Government itself. David Cameron's first | :32:24. | :32:29. | |
problem is many of his backbenchers aren't very happy right now. | :32:29. | :32:37. | |
Last night's vote was a as -- as much a symptom of that over the | :32:37. | :32:41. | |
disquiet over specifics of Lords reform. Not only do they feel | :32:41. | :32:46. | |
valued, but there is no chance of promotion, and they don't get | :32:46. | :32:49. | |
called in for a chat any more. They don't feel under any obligation to | :32:50. | :32:53. | |
support David Cameron when he needs them to. Crunch the numbers and | :32:53. | :32:58. | |
last night's rebellion looks even more spectacular. Out of 171 | :32:58. | :33:04. | |
Conservative backbenchers, who voted last night, only 80 voted for | :33:04. | :33:09. | |
the Government. 91 voted against, and a further 19 abstained, some of | :33:09. | :33:15. | |
them may have simply been unable to attend. Many of us fear...Connor | :33:15. | :33:20. | |
Burns was one of ten MPs who had to leave their junior jobs after | :33:20. | :33:25. | |
voting against the Lords Reform Bill. I resigned yesterday, I voted | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
loyally for every vote for this Government and the coalition since | :33:28. | :33:31. | |
I was elected a member of parliament. I'm going away more | :33:31. | :33:37. | |
unhappy than I have been for a very long time. I didn't want to resign, | :33:37. | :33:42. | |
I resigned over something in the last parliament, many members of | :33:42. | :33:47. | |
Government voted for and remained in Government. Do you think | :33:47. | :33:51. | |
backbenchers feel taken for granted? What you see often in | :33:51. | :33:53. | |
television discussions, you will see somebody speaking for the | :33:53. | :33:57. | |
coalition and the Liberal Democrats, and there is a sense that we need | :33:57. | :34:00. | |
sometimes people who are speaking for the Conservative Party. This is | :34:00. | :34:02. | |
a coalition for both the Conservatives and the liberal | :34:02. | :34:06. | |
leadership, but there is also a coalition within each party, | :34:06. | :34:11. | |
between the leadership and the backbenchers. That needs work. | :34:11. | :34:14. | |
Today was the last Prime Minister's Questions of the parliamentary term, | :34:14. | :34:20. | |
and Mr Cameron was rather teased by the Labour leader about what | :34:20. | :34:25. | |
happened last night, particularly over an apparent bust up he had | :34:25. | :34:31. | |
with the unofficial head of the rebels, the Lib Dem MP, Jessie | :34:31. | :34:34. | |
Norman. He lost control of his party, and not for the first time, | :34:34. | :34:40. | |
he lost his temper as well. We understand it was fisty cuffs in | :34:40. | :34:45. | |
the lobby, with the member for Hereford and south Hertfordshire. I | :34:45. | :34:48. | |
notice that the posh boys have ordered him off the estate today, | :34:48. | :34:53. | |
he doesn't seem to be here. Who does the Prime Minister blame | :34:53. | :34:57. | |
most for the disarray in his Government? The Lib Dems or his own | :34:57. | :35:02. | |
backbenchers. If the best he can do today is a | :35:03. | :35:08. | |
bunch of tittle tattle and rumour, how utterly pathetic. In fact, the | :35:08. | :35:14. | |
MP in qi, -- question, Jessie Norman, wasn't in hiding, but | :35:14. | :35:17. | |
meeting the Queen in his constituencies, he declined to | :35:17. | :35:22. | |
discuss his row with the PM. Ask I ask you what Mr Cameron said to you | :35:22. | :35:27. | |
yesterday? No it is a private matter. Apparently he's furious | :35:27. | :35:31. | |
with you? No comment. Meanwhile the Lib Dems feel a bit bounced too, by | :35:31. | :35:35. | |
Conservative MPs, who they say, are ignoring the coalition agreement. | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
deal is a deal, and it is important you stick to that deal and to the | :35:39. | :35:43. | |
contract, if you like, that you have entered into, that is why I | :35:43. | :35:47. | |
think it is important, not least because so far both parties have | :35:47. | :35:51. | |
stuck to that deal very effectively, that we continue to do so. That is | :35:51. | :35:54. | |
why it is important we deliver House of Lords reform, it is a | :35:54. | :36:00. | |
clear commitment in the coalition agreement. By contrast, today, one | :36:00. | :36:03. | |
of Mr Cameron's own backbenchers said what should happen is the | :36:03. | :36:06. | |
coalition agreement should be reviewed. The whole issue around | :36:06. | :36:11. | |
Lords reform is because it was felt that this wasn't clearly defined in | :36:11. | :36:15. | |
the coalition agreement, this agreement is specific, it is 400 | :36:15. | :36:20. | |
pages long. And yet this wasn't clearly defined in that it said we | :36:20. | :36:25. | |
should reach consensus, and then bring forward proposals. It didn't | :36:25. | :36:28. | |
talk about legislation and consensus hasn't been reached. It | :36:28. | :36:30. | |
is sometimes felt that the coalition Government is moving | :36:30. | :36:34. | |
beyond, outside the original coalition agreement. For party | :36:34. | :36:37. | |
unity, and also in the national interest, it is important, as with | :36:37. | :36:40. | |
many other countries, that the agreement is reviewed, mid-term. | :36:40. | :36:44. | |
Tonight, at a meeting with his party, Mr Cameron said he was | :36:44. | :36:48. | |
prepared to give Lords reform one more try, but then would draw a | :36:48. | :36:52. | |
line under the matter. However, not many expect the Liberal Democrats | :36:52. | :36:58. | |
to be so willing to drop the issue. With me now to give their own end | :36:58. | :37:06. | |
of term report are three wise heads of Westminster, Danny Finkelstein, | :37:06. | :37:11. | |
Amber Elliott and Steve Richards. First of all, when you talk to Tory | :37:11. | :37:16. | |
MPs, why did so many of them, 91 of them, feel so emboldened or annoyed | :37:16. | :37:19. | |
to rebel? There are two things, they don't like the scheme, they | :37:19. | :37:23. | |
think it will lead to a bad House of Commons, as a Home Office Lords | :37:23. | :37:26. | |
that will challenge the House of Commons, they don't believe in the | :37:26. | :37:29. | |
principle of election, even though they are elected themselves. I | :37:29. | :37:33. | |
suppose the other thing they are not committed theelojically as the | :37:33. | :37:36. | |
Liberal Democrats are to the coalition deal. The Liberal | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
Democrats went to the party and got the whole party committed behind | :37:39. | :37:42. | |
the coalition deal, people felt a sense of investment in it. The | :37:42. | :37:47. | |
Conservatives didn't go through the same process, so their MPs feel | :37:47. | :37:52. | |
more justified in their own lines to rebel. Shouldn't David Cameron | :37:52. | :37:57. | |
have thought of that before? certainly have got to look at your | :37:57. | :38:01. | |
party management when you have lost so many MPs. But, on the other hand, | :38:01. | :38:04. | |
this was always going to be very difficult. It was the reason why it | :38:04. | :38:07. | |
wasn't a priority for the Tories, it splits the Conservative Party. | :38:08. | :38:12. | |
In terms of where it leaves the coalition, do you think the | :38:12. | :38:15. | |
relations are bound to be pretty tetchy into the summer and autumn? | :38:15. | :38:18. | |
Someone described it to me as we're at the bump in the road, we know | :38:18. | :38:23. | |
the bump is there, we know we have to get over it, we don't quite know | :38:23. | :38:28. | |
how yet. I saw Nick Clegg this evening, he was sort of a lot more | :38:28. | :38:31. | |
downhearted, shall we say, about the future of Lords reform than he | :38:31. | :38:35. | |
was previously. He was saying, look it is up to David Cameron to sort | :38:35. | :38:39. | |
it out over the summer. We are going to go away and come back to | :38:39. | :38:42. | |
it, but I won't agree to it unless we get the programme motion which, | :38:42. | :38:48. | |
is the timetable for Lords reform. How far do you think trust is | :38:48. | :38:52. | |
necessary in this. It is obviouslinessry at the very top | :38:52. | :38:58. | |
between Nick Clegg -- obviously very necessary at the very top | :38:58. | :39:05. | |
between Nick Clegg and Cameron, does it matter elsewhere or does it | :39:05. | :39:08. | |
become tribal? They are two separate parties running in a | :39:08. | :39:12. | |
coalition. When it is said, rightly, that Conservative MPs feel strongly | :39:12. | :39:16. | |
about this as a matter of principle. It is admirable they are sticking | :39:16. | :39:22. | |
up for Nair beliefs and threatening their ministerial careers. -- their | :39:22. | :39:26. | |
beliefs and threatening their ministerial careers. However there | :39:26. | :39:30. | |
was an agreement, and I understand why Nick Clegg is feeling down, he | :39:30. | :39:35. | |
has delivered on many issues that were difficult for the Lib Dems, | :39:35. | :39:40. | |
tuition fees and other things. It is difficult for them to have a | :39:40. | :39:43. | |
profound sympathy for the Conservatives, when they had to | :39:43. | :39:49. | |
jump some of their deeply-held beliefs to back other areas of the | :39:49. | :39:57. | |
coalition. There is another issue as well, that is that with | :39:57. | :40:01. | |
electoral reform, that was a painful moment for Nick Clegg, but | :40:01. | :40:05. | |
Cameron delivered the referendum, he ruthlessly won it, he delivered | :40:05. | :40:08. | |
it, that was the deal. This was delivery on the substance, and he | :40:08. | :40:14. | |
can't do it. I think there are causes for real tension now. Do you | :40:14. | :40:20. | |
think the worry is there will be reprisal, that some Lib Dems will | :40:20. | :40:24. | |
be unwhippable, and party at the top might be irritated? If you part | :40:24. | :40:27. | |
company with the them you are in unchartered territory. If you look | :40:27. | :40:31. | |
at what is in front of the coalition, if you end up not having | :40:31. | :40:35. | |
the Lords, the Lib Dem leaving the Government to vote against the | :40:35. | :40:39. | |
boundary reviews, you are looking at a coalition spliting up over | :40:39. | :40:42. | |
issues that the public don't care about. That is not doable for the | :40:42. | :40:45. | |
Liberal Democrats or the Conservatives. You need a | :40:45. | :40:48. | |
compromise, either they drop both those things, or David Cameron is | :40:48. | :40:51. | |
going to be able to come back to Conservative MPs with something on | :40:51. | :40:54. | |
the Lords they will accept, and that Nick Clegg will accept too. | :40:54. | :41:00. | |
There must be a range of such compromises, because Nick Clegg | :41:00. | :41:03. | |
cannot possibly and David Cameron cannot possibly allow the | :41:03. | :41:06. | |
Government to fall on such an issue. Do you broadly agree with that, | :41:07. | :41:10. | |
that the Government will not fall on this issue, but some how they | :41:10. | :41:13. | |
have to stagger on for the next two years? I can't see them falling | :41:13. | :41:16. | |
over this issue. For the last two years we have had the Liberal | :41:16. | :41:18. | |
Democrats saying they are in the Government for the greater good, it | :41:18. | :41:21. | |
is because of the public they are doing this. Although they could be | :41:21. | :41:26. | |
in a burning building with no exits, Danny was suggesting that today? | :41:26. | :41:30. | |
The problem is they could turn around and say that is enough, you | :41:30. | :41:34. | |
haven't delivered it and we are out of here, it looks like they were in | :41:34. | :41:39. | |
it for self-interest. They are in a difficult place. Nick Clegg is | :41:39. | :41:43. | |
trying to distance himself from Lords reform, saying it is up to | :41:43. | :41:46. | |
David Cameron to sort it out, we have delivered t you co-signed the | :41:46. | :41:50. | |
word in the white paper, you are in it, whether you like it or not. | :41:50. | :41:53. | |
Where does it leave the leader, the Times had a story suggesting that | :41:53. | :41:57. | |
Nick Clegg after the AV referendum failed was offered by David Cameron, | :41:58. | :42:02. | |
something, what do you want. The Tories, apparently, accord together | :42:02. | :42:05. | |
story thought he would say scupper NHS reform, he didn't, he went for | :42:06. | :42:10. | |
this, that could be a big mistake in his own judgment? If you don't | :42:10. | :42:14. | |
get it, having put yourself so closely in line with a particular | :42:14. | :42:18. | |
issue and you don't get it. Obviously it is devastating on many | :42:18. | :42:21. | |
levels, you have to explain it to your party that you failed to do it. | :42:21. | :42:25. | |
He will have an answer, that it is not his party, they are all united | :42:25. | :42:28. | |
behind it. But the others, however, it is still not deliverable for him. | :42:29. | :42:34. | |
And so, it is very difficult for him. As I say, having failed to get | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
electoral reform, to note get this, and meanwhile have to explain why | :42:38. | :42:41. | |
you are endorsing more of the sort of policies associated with the | :42:41. | :42:44. | |
Conservatives, puts him in a very difficult position. What about | :42:44. | :42:47. | |
David Cameron's position on this, does the size of the rebellion, and | :42:47. | :42:51. | |
also the coverage that has suggested there were nods and winks | :42:52. | :42:59. | |
saying we wouldn't be tooishcated - - ircated by this? It isn't the | :42:59. | :43:05. | |
issue for them is the aren't they stkpnt get AV is nobody -- didn't | :43:05. | :43:11. | |
get AV is nobody isn't interested. This isn't the issue that is a | :43:11. | :43:15. | |
problem for them. The problem in Nick Clegg's case is to be seen to | :43:15. | :43:18. | |
be supporting responsibly, as a governing party, that can be | :43:18. | :43:23. | |
trusted in a coalition. The issue for David Cameron is he seen to be | :43:23. | :43:27. | |
in touch and competent, and those are issues about the real economy, | :43:27. | :43:33. | |
and this is just an issue they have got to sort out between the -- them, | :43:33. | :43:37. | |
because the electorate doesn't mind. For Ed Miliband, a few months ago a | :43:37. | :43:41. | |
lot of columnists were writing him off, not now? We have had the | :43:41. | :43:45. | |
situation with Tony Blaired today. I think the problem for Ed Miliband | :43:45. | :43:49. | |
s he has to find way to be constant. He has big highs, like bark close | :43:49. | :43:57. | |
and Levy, and then he has lows. -- Barclays and lefson, and then he | :43:57. | :44:02. | |
has lows. Until he is seen by the public as a trustworthy figure he | :44:02. | :44:07. | |
has problems. He has to say he's a man that is better for you than | :44:07. | :44:11. | |
David Cameron and you can trust me more on situations like the economy. | :44:11. | :44:13. | |
In that sense, since the budget, that may have changed one or two | :44:13. | :44:19. | |
things. I have talked to a few Tory MPs who are a bit irritated | :44:19. | :44:23. | |
defending certain things that were reversed S that all good news for | :44:23. | :44:27. | |
Miliband? -- is that all good news for Miliband? I slightly disagree. | :44:27. | :44:30. | |
On the whole he has been a pretty constant performer, it is | :44:30. | :44:34. | |
interesting that the way he is perceived has changed. Today at | :44:34. | :44:37. | |
Prime Minister's Questions, I noticed a lot of commentators | :44:37. | :44:42. | |
tweeting that it was a brilliant performance from Ed Miliband. It | :44:42. | :44:45. | |
wasn't that much different from performances six months ago, but | :44:45. | :44:49. | |
the context has changed. When you have a Prime Minister who can't | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
deliver his own parliamentary party, and the Deputy Prime Minister | :44:53. | :44:56. | |
feeling betrayed by the Prime Minister for not doing so, as | :44:56. | :45:00. | |
leader of the opposition you were in a stronger position than you | :45:00. | :45:05. | |
were, which has always been pretty good. Is Lords reform dead in the | :45:05. | :45:08. | |
water? I think they could find a compromise. They have either got to | :45:08. | :45:13. | |
do that or drop t they can't possibly break up over it. I think | :45:13. | :45:17. | |
he's looking to have 120 elected peers by 2015, that is what he will | :45:17. | :45:22. | |
push on and Cameron hopes so too. Dead or alive? In the end they will | :45:22. | :45:25. | |
find a compromise that won't really please any of them, but might get | :45:25. | :45:31. | |
them through this particular hurdle. A British businessman is to face | :45:31. | :45:34. | |
criminal charges over a supposed bomb detector he sold to countries | :45:34. | :45:39. | |
around the world, including Iraq, which paid �50 million for the | :45:40. | :45:44. | |
devices. Jim McCormick has been remanded in custody and will appear | :45:44. | :45:49. | |
in a London court tomorrow, charged with multiple counts of fraud. A | :45:49. | :45:53. | |
Newsnight investigation revealed the product made by Mr McCormick | :45:53. | :45:59. | |
didn't work. This is how the called bomb | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
detector was sold, with extraordinary claims about how it | :46:02. | :46:07. | |
can detect explosives, powered only by the use of static electricity. | :46:08. | :46:13. | |
The device didn't come cheap. Iraq, one of Jim McCormick's biggest | :46:13. | :46:20. | |
customers, spent $85 million on t at a cost of around $40,000 each. | :46:20. | :46:23. | |
They are still used at police checkpoints today. Jim McCormick, | :46:23. | :46:28. | |
shown here on a visit to Baghdad, runs a security company, based in | :46:28. | :46:33. | |
Somerset. Filmed by BBC Points West in 2009, Jim McCormick claimed that | :46:33. | :46:38. | |
these cards are the key to how the device work, and they can detect | :46:38. | :46:42. | |
everything from explosives to dollar bills and ivory. Ideal | :46:42. | :46:47. | |
conditions you can be up to one kilometer away. So this card will | :46:47. | :46:53. | |
help this device spot explosive as kilometer away. Under ideal | :46:53. | :46:59. | |
conditions, yes. After a string of deadly bombs in | :46:59. | :47:02. | |
Baghdad, we began investigating the device, which Jim McCormick has | :47:02. | :47:08. | |
said he has sold to some 20 countries around the world. In | :47:08. | :47:12. | |
early 2010, we managed to obtain a set of Mr McCormick's special cards, | :47:12. | :47:15. | |
and brought them to Cambridge University's computer laboratory, | :47:15. | :47:19. | |
to analyse them for us. There is nothing to programme in these cards, | :47:19. | :47:24. | |
there is memory, no microcontroller, these are shop theft prevention | :47:24. | :47:29. | |
cards. It couldn't be programmed then to detect TNT? Absolutely not. | :47:29. | :47:33. | |
We told the Government the results of our investigation, and it | :47:33. | :47:38. | |
immediately banned the export of the ADE-651 and similar device, to | :47:38. | :47:43. | |
both Iraq and Afghanistan. Now, after a long and complex | :47:43. | :47:48. | |
international investigation, Jim McCormick has been charged. He will | :47:48. | :47:53. | |
face six charges under the Fraud Act 2006. Three count of possession | :47:53. | :47:58. | |
or having under his control a device for use in the course of use | :47:58. | :48:01. | |
for fraud. A further three counts of manufacturing or supplying a | :48:01. | :48:04. | |
device, knowing that it was designed to be used in the | :48:04. | :48:07. | |
commission of a fraud. McCormick has been remanded in | :48:07. | :48:12. | |
custody, and due to appear at a court in London tomorrow. | :48:12. | :48:22. | |
:48:22. | :48:41. | ||
That's all tonight, we leave you with news that the man who brought | :48:41. | :48:45. | |
bunga-bunga into the English language, Silvio Berlusconi mayk | :48:45. | :48:49. | |
staging a comeback, despite charges -- bay be staging a comeback, | :48:49. | :48:54. | |
despite charges of having sex with a 17-year-old hanging over them, it | :48:54. | :49:04. | |
:49:04. | :49:08. | ||
is thought he may make a bid for # The Italian | :49:08. | :49:14. | |
# Take a chance # And try to steal a fiery kiss | :49:14. | :49:21. | |
# The Italian # When you hold me | :49:21. | :49:31. | |
:49:31. | :49:34. | ||
# Don't just hold me Hello there. There is a brief | :49:34. | :49:37. | |
window of fine weather for most of us on Thursday, but not everywhere. | :49:37. | :49:40. | |
A little bit of rain across the north-east of Scotland. Rain | :49:41. | :49:44. | |
pushing into the south western parts of England as well. Inbetween | :49:44. | :49:48. | |
a fair amount of dry and at times fairly sunny weather to be enjoyed. | :49:48. | :49:52. | |
That is difficult to find in recent days. Temperature-wise, still | :49:52. | :49:55. | |
fairly disappointing, getting up into the high teens, possibly the | :49:55. | :50:00. | |
low 20s in one or two of the brighter spots. The rain moving in | :50:00. | :50:05. | |
well across south Hampshire, and heavy by then across parts of Devon, | :50:05. | :50:09. | |
Cornwall and Somerset. The rain edging into South Wales, along with | :50:09. | :50:12. | |
a freshening breeze. For North Wales you might well hang on to | :50:12. | :50:14. | |
sunny skies into the afternoon, and across Northern Ireland, | :50:14. | :50:18. | |
essentially, it is a fine day, with spells of sunshine, lingering on. | :50:18. | :50:22. | |
But still disappointing temperatures, 14 or 15 degrees, | :50:22. | :50:26. | |
western Scotland still dry, rain badly needed across the Western | :50:27. | :50:31. | |
Isles, a persistent drought here, 12 degrees in Inverness, very poor | :50:31. | :50:35. | |
here. It doesn't get warmer here as we go into industry as well. | :50:36. | :50:40. | |
Edinburgh struggling 13 degrees, the high with cloud hey skies and a | :50:41. | :50:45. | |
cool breeze to go -- cloudy skies and a cool breeze to go with it. It | :50:45. | :50:50. |