20/07/2012 Newsnight


20/07/2012

As refugees pour out of Syria, what's going on inside? Why did the Batman killer do it? And is milk really too pricey? With Gavin Esler.


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Transcript


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Tonight, thousands of refugees are now flooding out of Syria, after a

:00:12.:00:16.

week of intense fighting. Government forces are battling to

:00:16.:00:21.

retake key areas of the capital Damascus. We're on the border.

:00:21.:00:25.

Here at Syria's main border crossing with Lebanon, there has

:00:25.:00:28.

been a tide of Syrians, fleeing the violence that has now reached the

:00:28.:00:35.

very heart of the capital, Damascus. We will hear from an activist, and

:00:36.:00:38.

ask if the Government is helping the rebels.

:00:39.:00:45.

The dark night of America, many killed in a lone gunman attack. Can

:00:46.:00:49.

we ever understand the monstrous. We will ask a leading psychiatrist.

:00:49.:00:53.

The Chancellor and the rest of us finding out the price of milk, as

:00:53.:00:58.

farmers protest they are being ripped off by the big supermarkets.

:00:58.:01:04.

These laid ease are queuing up to supply the breakfast tables, but is

:01:04.:01:09.

it the farmers who are being milked try. Dry.

:01:09.:01:12.

Thousands more refugees are streaming across the border between

:01:12.:01:15.

Syria and neighbouring countries, it follows the bomb blast on

:01:15.:01:19.

Wednesday, in which leaders of the regime's security apparatus were

:01:19.:01:23.

targeted. Reports of heavy fighting in the capital, Damascus. The

:01:23.:01:27.

United Nations, has, at last, reached some kind of agreement on

:01:27.:01:32.

renewing its mission in the country for a month. While the rebel Free

:01:32.:01:37.

Syrian Army claims the regime is now in its last days. We start in

:01:37.:01:40.

Lebanon and report from the Syrian border.

:01:40.:01:45.

On every border, at every crossing, Syrians are fleeing their country,

:01:45.:01:49.

escaping the growing violence and uncertainty. At this main crossing

:01:49.:01:53.

into Lebanon, everyone is carefully checked. Many of the vehicles are

:01:53.:01:59.

family cars, full of children, full of their fears. The border guards

:01:59.:02:03.

here tell us 18,000 crossed over in the past 48 hours. Some of the

:02:03.:02:07.

Syrians are wealthy enough to stay in hotels, some are lucky enough to

:02:07.:02:11.

have family members in Lebanon. But others don't know where they will

:02:11.:02:16.

stay, or for how long. That's a risk for the Lebanese, who

:02:16.:02:19.

have their own very delicate sectarian and ethnic balance to

:02:19.:02:26.

worry about. All of Syria's neighbours worry

:02:26.:02:30.

tensions will also cross borders, but Lebanon is especially risky, it

:02:30.:02:34.

has already lived through its own civil war. Lebanon's politicians

:02:34.:02:38.

and people take different sides in Syria's deepening conflict.

:02:38.:02:44.

It's now a war that's reach the very heart of Damascus. Today,

:02:44.:02:48.

after six days of the heaviest clashes in 16 months, Syrian forces

:02:48.:02:52.

fought their way back into central neighbourhoods like Midan, saying

:02:52.:02:55.

it was cleansed of terrorists. The rebels say it was only a tactical

:02:56.:03:03.

retreat, in what they call the final battle for Damascus.

:03:04.:03:08.

But the fight is far from over. Battles are still raging in many

:03:09.:03:13.

parts of the capital. Syrian state TV showed pictures of

:03:14.:03:21.

young men, they described as part of the called "Free Army", sprawled

:03:21.:03:25.

across a road in another Damascus neighbourhood. Today the regime

:03:25.:03:30.

buried three members of President Assad's inner circle, they were

:03:30.:03:35.

killed on Wednesday, on stunning attack on a highly-guarded security

:03:35.:03:38.

meeting. It was also a devastating blow to President Assad's authority,

:03:38.:03:46.

in an aura of instability. Even his main ally, Russia, suggested the

:03:46.:03:56.
:03:56.:03:56.

President would be willing to step down, so long as it was in order.

:03:56.:04:00.

TRANSLATION: There was a meeting in June, a final communique was for

:04:00.:04:03.

the transition, the final communique was accepted by Bashar

:04:03.:04:07.

Al-Assad, he appointed his representative to conduct the

:04:07.:04:11.

negotiations with the opposition on that transition. In other words, he

:04:11.:04:17.

agrees to go, but in a civilised manner.

:04:17.:04:20.

State TV quickly denied the President was going anywhere, any

:04:20.:04:24.

time soon. But rumours keep squirreling about

:04:24.:04:29.

whether he's -- swirling about whether he's still in Damascus. If

:04:29.:04:33.

there ever was a peace plan, it now seems irrelevant. In New York the

:04:33.:04:37.

UN renewed the mandate of its monitoring mission for another

:04:37.:04:40.

month. But it is too dangerous to do much monitoring now, and the

:04:40.:04:44.

main players in this crisis are stuck in a war of words over what

:04:44.:04:50.

to do next. Diplomacy has been lagging behind developments on the

:04:50.:04:55.

ground. But it's not too late for diplomacy to catch up if the

:04:55.:04:59.

Russians come on board, and they do what they did with Milosevic, which

:04:59.:05:04.

is come and tell him the game is up, and get him out of there. Which

:05:04.:05:09.

needs a lot of international support, possibly military

:05:09.:05:15.

assistance also, to keep, to maintain order, and a co-ordinated

:05:15.:05:21.

effort with the regional powers. This is a war with winners and

:05:22.:05:24.

losers, in Syria and all of its neighbours.

:05:24.:05:28.

The biggest losers are the Syrians now fleeing their country, and

:05:28.:05:33.

those still trapped inside. Not knowing when and how this war

:05:33.:05:40.

will end. Shortly before we came on air I spoke with Lis on the border.

:05:40.:05:43.

Loot of people here have been talking about this week as if it

:05:43.:05:50.

were a turning point s is that how it is being seen where you are?

:05:50.:05:56.

These words "turning point" and "tipping point" often get used in

:05:56.:06:00.

protracted conflicts like this. But for anyone who has followed the 16-

:06:00.:06:04.

month uprising against Assad's rule, there is no question that this past

:06:04.:06:06.

week has been absolutely a turning point. We have seen the clashes

:06:06.:06:10.

that have been taking place in towns and villages across the

:06:10.:06:14.

country, finally reaching the heart, the very heart of Damascus, and the

:06:14.:06:18.

very heart of President Assad's inner circle. Every time I have

:06:18.:06:21.

been to Damascus, it was largely a bubble, unaffected by the tensions

:06:21.:06:26.

and the violence. But it has been growing steadily more unstable. And

:06:26.:06:30.

now, the people, for example, the people we have been talking to here

:06:30.:06:33.

today, who have been fleeing that violence, tell us that they simply

:06:33.:06:37.

were too scared to stay on. I spoke to children who said they heard

:06:37.:06:40.

loud explosions by night and day, of the helicopter gunship that is

:06:40.:06:44.

the Government is again using for the first time against rebel forces

:06:44.:06:47.

who are in central neighbourhoods of Damascus. They hear the

:06:47.:06:51.

explosions and the shooting. One woman said she felt like a prisoner

:06:51.:06:55.

in her own home, they didn't know who to trust. Whether the Free

:06:55.:07:00.

Syrian Army or the Government. diplomacy does indeed grind on, but

:07:00.:07:05.

is it your instinct that this is going to be settled by the gun?

:07:05.:07:11.

world has been watching in horror, as Syria is engulfed by more and

:07:11.:07:16.

more violence, more deadly violence, grotesque torture, horrific scenes

:07:16.:07:20.

over the past 16 months. It has always been said there is only one

:07:20.:07:25.

peace plan, the peace plan of Kofi Annan. That he is the envoy, and

:07:25.:07:28.

no-one dared to say that the peace plan wasn't working, because the

:07:28.:07:33.

reality is there is no other plan. If that fails, what is it? It's a

:07:33.:07:37.

war. And quite frankly, that is what it is now. It is a war. It is

:07:37.:07:40.

not just a war on the ground, it has turned into an increasing war

:07:40.:07:44.

of words between all the main players in this crisis, who haven't

:07:44.:07:49.

been able to agree on what they can do to resolve it.

:07:49.:07:55.

I'm joined now in the studio by the Turkish ambassador to the UK, and

:07:55.:08:00.

from Beirut by Dr Hassan Turkomani from the Syrian opposition group,

:08:00.:08:05.

Building the Syrian State. How worried is turkey that we are not

:08:05.:08:09.

just seeing this imploding but exploding, and all the neighbouring

:08:09.:08:12.

countries, including your own, will suffer? All the signs indicate

:08:12.:08:17.

there is a growing humanitarian situation in the country, and it is

:08:17.:08:20.

now affecting the bordering countries, particularly Lebanon and

:08:20.:08:25.

turkey. In the last two weeks, I think we had more than 15,000

:08:25.:08:30.

refugees, and the number of refugees in Turkey is now over 43

:08:30.:08:33.

though though we have eight camps and they are not sufficient enough,

:08:33.:08:38.

so now we are building new camps to accommodate the newcomers, we are

:08:38.:08:43.

very much concerned that this refugee situation will become in

:08:43.:08:47.

the mass, that is, of course, very frightening. In what ways are you

:08:47.:08:51.

helping the free Syrian army, they are being co-ordinated out of

:08:51.:08:55.

Turkey, are you helping the weapons get through to them? We simply

:08:55.:08:59.

support the democratic rights of the Syrian people, and we want to

:08:59.:09:03.

find the solution to the problem in Syria, through peaceful means. That

:09:03.:09:06.

is the reason why we have been supporting the opposition groups,

:09:06.:09:10.

who have not chosen the violence. But the guns are getting in from

:09:10.:09:14.

somewhere, aren't they, and Turkey is the obvious candidate? Not from

:09:14.:09:18.

the Turkish borders, I can categorically reject the idea it is

:09:18.:09:25.

going through the Turkish border. You have always said you want a

:09:25.:09:28.

peaceful solution to this, have you now come to recognise this is, in

:09:28.:09:35.

effect, a fight to the death for the regime? Yes wrecks want a

:09:35.:09:39.

peaceful solution. The track we want to reach a solution should be

:09:39.:09:43.

peaceful. I don't see violence as a solution, to start W it is not

:09:43.:09:48.

going -- yes, we want a peaceful solution, the track we want to

:09:48.:09:54.

reach a solution should be peaceful. We don't want the violence to make

:09:54.:09:58.

everyone lose control of the situation, I don't think Turkey or

:09:58.:10:02.

the regime or the international community will be able to play any

:10:02.:10:07.

role if we descend to complete chaos. Isn't that, frankly, what's

:10:07.:10:10.

happening, there is a lot of guns getting in, and people within the

:10:10.:10:14.

Free Syrian Army are saying it is a fight for the future of Syria, and

:10:14.:10:18.

it will be a fight, no matter what the diplomats say? I disagree with

:10:18.:10:23.

them. They don't have the right to let us all be involved in this

:10:23.:10:28.

fight. While I do understand the people's right to defend themselves,

:10:28.:10:37.

however, using the army to overthrow the regime, and settle

:10:37.:10:40.

the problems with the regime is not the right way. We want all parties

:10:40.:10:44.

to stop fighting and a real ceasefire from everyone, and then,

:10:44.:10:47.

hopefully, kick starting a political solution. But for that to

:10:47.:10:51.

happen we need international consensus. We need Turkey to stop

:10:51.:10:56.

sending arms through the borders. It is not true what the ambassador

:10:56.:10:59.

is saying about Turkey supporting the democratic choice of the Syrian

:10:59.:11:04.

people. They interfered politically when they decided to make my choice

:11:04.:11:08.

for my representatives as a Syrian and say this is who represents me.

:11:08.:11:11.

They interfered politically through the opposition. They allowed lots

:11:11.:11:15.

of arms to go through the borders, whilst on the borders I spoke to

:11:15.:11:19.

many Syrian officials and defecting soldiers and generals, they told me

:11:19.:11:23.

how Turkey is helping in this. It is very disappointing, we want

:11:23.:11:27.

Turkey's support, but for the people, and democratic choice, and

:11:27.:11:31.

democracy doesn't come through arms. Let me put that to you, the guns

:11:31.:11:34.

are getting through Turkey, perhaps it is understandable, and it is

:11:34.:11:37.

understandable you don't want to say so, that is where they are

:11:37.:11:40.

coming from? I can simply say it is the position of the Government that

:11:40.:11:44.

we are not supporting the violent groups in Syria, who are trying to

:11:44.:11:49.

find the democratic solution to the problem. But, we have been

:11:49.:11:52.

supporting the opposition groups and we have been supporting the

:11:53.:11:57.

rights of the Syrian people, the democratic rights of the people,

:11:57.:12:02.

but only through peaceful means. We have been, that is true that we

:12:02.:12:07.

have been helping several opposition groups to get together

:12:07.:12:14.

in Turkey. To co-ordinate themselves. But not for the arms.

:12:14.:12:20.

Are you very irritated by the way Russia has acted in this?

:12:20.:12:24.

wouldn't say I'm irritated, but the international community needs to

:12:24.:12:27.

show solidarity. And unfortunately the United Nations Security Council

:12:28.:12:34.

has a big responsibility to take a decision about the the solutions of

:12:34.:12:37.

the problems. It seems that some members of the United Nations

:12:37.:12:42.

Security Council do not feel as the others do. That's the reason why we

:12:42.:12:51.

are not reaching a decision there. You're sitting in Lebanon, your

:12:51.:12:54.

thoughts are obviously with the people of Syria, but people in

:12:54.:12:58.

Lebanon too are obviously very worried. We know about the kind of

:12:58.:13:02.

fractious nature of that state. Are you worried that might spread to

:13:02.:13:08.

where you are now? People are very worried here, indeed, some people

:13:08.:13:12.

are still operating, on the day of the explosions there were still

:13:12.:13:17.

operations in Tripoli. Many people are worried in Beirut. I met people

:13:17.:13:20.

from Damascus, and they are extremely worried. I met people

:13:20.:13:24.

from the opposition who walked through the heart of Damascus today

:13:24.:13:27.

and yesterday, and said the only thing you can feel is absolute fear,

:13:27.:13:31.

where is this going? They don't know where the authority is, who is

:13:31.:13:37.

issuing the orders. If it descends into the chaos, it will spread

:13:37.:13:41.

across to Lebanon and Turkey and Iraq, the fear is regional. The

:13:41.:13:46.

heart of the fear is in Damascus, they are living in fear. We all

:13:46.:13:49.

failed Syria. The international community, the Syrian opposition,

:13:49.:13:54.

and indeed, first of all, the regime. I think we should all go

:13:54.:13:57.

back to rally around one solution. I don't understand what happened

:13:57.:14:01.

after Geneva's meeting. They all seemed to have agreed on something,

:14:01.:14:04.

and suddenly we see some of them going to the Security Council, and

:14:04.:14:07.

others talking about army the opposition again. That is not what

:14:07.:14:11.

Syria needs right now. We need to rally around one solution and push

:14:11.:14:16.

forward to it. We don't want it to become the subject of international

:14:16.:14:20.

conflict, while both the regime and other parties are reinforcing their

:14:20.:14:24.

position, while the rest of the world is fighting over Syria.

:14:24.:14:27.

Thank you very much, we are running out of time.

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There is something both utterly shocking and yet sadly familiar

:14:30.:14:37.

about the events late last night in Aurora, Colorado. A young man,

:14:37.:14:42.

presumably deeply troubled, arms himself and slaughters people to

:14:42.:14:48.

find one day of infamiliary. There will be the puzzlement about gun

:14:48.:14:51.

laws, but Anders Breivik proved America has no monopoly on the

:14:51.:14:55.

crime. The puzzle is, as usual, whether anything could have stopped

:14:55.:14:58.

Just after midnight last night, local time, 20 minutes after the

:14:58.:15:02.

start of one of the most anticipated movies of the summer,

:15:02.:15:06.

24-year-old James Holmes entered a cinema in Aurora, Colorado, from

:15:06.:15:11.

the back door. As the audience watched Batman, he set off two

:15:11.:15:16.

smoke bombs. Then he opened fire with an Assault Rifle, a shotgun

:15:16.:15:21.

and two pistols, killing a dozen people, wounding more than 70.

:15:21.:15:26.

suspect was dressed all in black. He was wearing a ballistic helmet,

:15:26.:15:36.
:15:36.:15:37.

a tactical balance list kal vest, a ballistic level, and a gas mask and

:15:37.:15:42.

black tactical gloves. Holmes was arrested just outside the theatre,

:15:42.:15:46.

he had dropped out of a PhD in neuroscience at the local

:15:46.:15:50.

university. Aurora won't comment on his motive, but the New York police

:15:50.:16:00.
:16:00.:16:13.

Holmes apartment was subsequently found to be heavily booby trapped,

:16:13.:16:16.

the injuries of some of the wounded are said to be critical. The death

:16:16.:16:21.

toll of the latest American mass shooting could well rise. I'm

:16:21.:16:27.

joined now by a leading forensic psychiatrist, and Dave Cullen, who

:16:27.:16:32.

wrote the book, Columbine, about the High School killings there.

:16:32.:16:36.

When these things happen, is there a common pattern in the kind of

:16:36.:16:41.

people who do it? Yes, there certainly is. Invariably, the

:16:41.:16:47.

people who do mass murder have got very strong anger, usually rage,

:16:47.:16:52.

and most often that is distorted through the lens of paranoia. They

:16:53.:16:55.

are blaming other people for the problems that are typically of

:16:55.:17:00.

their own making. A second trait they share is a willingness to die,

:17:00.:17:06.

and by the end of the day, 50% do die. What do you make of this

:17:06.:17:14.

thought that Mr Holmes was acting as if he were the Joker, the enemy

:17:14.:17:19.

of Batman in the movies, does that make any sense to you? It does. It

:17:19.:17:25.

seems to me an identification with the anti-hero, and, of course, this

:17:25.:17:33.

way of going about a mass murder, which I name, pseudo commando, in

:17:33.:17:40.

1985, was created originally by the Texas tower shooter, Charles

:17:40.:17:43.

Whitman, they take multiple weapons with them, they are prepared, as if

:17:43.:17:48.

it is a tactical assault. We see that in all of his behaviour.

:17:48.:17:52.

Cullen, when you heard the news, did you think, oh, it's just

:17:52.:17:56.

another Columbine, it is the same kind of person, it is the same kind

:17:56.:18:05.

of thing? No, not really. Because there are several different types,

:18:05.:18:12.

and, like Park said, there are a lot of similarities, but there are

:18:12.:18:17.

also different one. At Columbine we had two different types, Eric

:18:17.:18:24.

Harris was a clinical psychopath, and Klibel was depressed. At

:18:24.:18:29.

Virginia Tech we had Joe, deeply, mentally ill, probably out-of-touch

:18:29.:18:33.

with reality, and then we have terrorists, and those seem to be

:18:33.:18:37.

the major ties. The people of different types behave very

:18:37.:18:42.

differently, and with driven drives. I'm always curious what's driving

:18:42.:18:48.

this person, and we don't have a whole lot of clues yet. I mean, we

:18:48.:18:51.

have possibilities, but the only thing it looks like we can say for

:18:51.:18:55.

sure is he planned, and planned it in advance, but that is almost

:18:55.:18:59.

always true, and he was ruthless about it. In the way he went about

:18:59.:19:04.

it. But people from each of those different types can be ruthless. I

:19:04.:19:10.

think it is still early to know. Dietz, I was struck listening to

:19:10.:19:16.

President Obama today, talking about evil senseless violence, and

:19:16.:19:20.

Mitt Romney spiking about a sense of helplessness. Is there --

:19:20.:19:23.

speaking about a sense of helplessness, is there no policy

:19:23.:19:28.

response from the politicians that would work in these situations, or

:19:28.:19:32.

do we have to throw our hands up in the face of this kind of evil?

:19:32.:19:35.

There will not be an effective policy response, because the things

:19:35.:19:39.

that would be effective are outside the reach of Government. They have

:19:39.:19:45.

to do with who will reproduce, how parenting will be done, who will

:19:45.:19:51.

have access to weapons, who news coverage there will be of copycat

:19:51.:19:56.

crimes of this sort? I disagree some what with what Dave said. I

:19:56.:20:01.

believe all the examples he gave, except terrorists, were depressed,

:20:01.:20:08.

paranoid people, or at least angry people. And we found that Klebold

:20:08.:20:13.

and Harris, were both, when we did psychological autopsies on the

:20:13.:20:17.

Columbine killers, there is a lot of similarity between the pseudo

:20:17.:20:20.

commando mass murders, we have to recognise there are depressed,

:20:20.:20:24.

paranoid, armed people, watching this and every broadcast about

:20:24.:20:31.

these crimes, a few of whom will say, they can beat the body count.

:20:31.:20:38.

I wonder what your thoughts r we can't not cover a major news event,

:20:38.:20:42.

but some people, as Dr Dietz says, will be some how encouraged to beat

:20:43.:20:47.

it? Yes, there are, I agree with most of what he said, of the early

:20:47.:20:55.

part. That's one of those things, I think we need to be careful about

:20:55.:20:59.

how we, in the media, portray these people, and not to sensationalise

:20:59.:21:05.

it, not to make them appear heroic. But, I don't think there is any

:21:05.:21:09.

putting that lid in the world we live in now and keeping it from

:21:09.:21:12.

people, that this is happening. I think that information will be out

:21:12.:21:22.
:21:22.:21:22.

there, and the best that we can do is treat it responsibly. You know,

:21:22.:21:27.

most of these people, as Dr Dietz said, most of them don't live

:21:27.:21:32.

through it. Most of these, even the people who are after glory, they

:21:32.:21:39.

tend to aid very ingloriously, often pathetically. Columbine was,

:21:39.:21:43.

in their own minds, what they intended was a complete disaster,

:21:43.:21:48.

not what they intended happened. They were trying to blow up the

:21:48.:21:52.

school. People die in miserable ends, in most of these cases. If we

:21:52.:21:59.

could communicate the truth of that, we are not going to stop all the

:21:59.:22:04.

copycaters, but at least we will diminish the possibility they will

:22:04.:22:08.

see it as an opportunity. One final thought, I know there will be a lot

:22:08.:22:13.

of viewers in Europe who will say this is mostly an American disease

:22:13.:22:17.

to do with gun control, what are your thoughts on, that when

:22:17.:22:25.

obviously in Norway we had a pretty horrific crime last year? There

:22:25.:22:28.

have been a number round the globe, and we have too plane. If we are

:22:28.:22:32.

going to answer it sensibly, we have to compare -- too many. If we

:22:32.:22:37.

are going to answer it sensibly we have to compare the US and nor way.

:22:37.:22:42.

Both have widespread firearm ownership, the US is less orderly

:22:42.:22:45.

and has more of a wild west mentality.

:22:45.:22:48.

Thank you very much for your expertise and knowledge.

:22:48.:22:51.

A few weeks ago a backbench Conservative MP, Nadine Dorries,

:22:51.:22:54.

chastised the Prime Minister, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as

:22:54.:22:58.

two posh boys who don't know the price of milk. Today the Chancellor,

:22:58.:23:02.

George Osborne, did a bit of remedial work, by visiting a farm,

:23:02.:23:06.

to hear firsthand about the difficulties many farmers are

:23:06.:23:10.

having, as they claim the big supermarkets and major milk process

:23:10.:23:15.

sores, are cutting prices to unsustain -- processors are cutting

:23:15.:23:18.

prices to unsustainable levels. We have been to find out what it is

:23:19.:23:24.

all about. Dairy farmers like Peter, cannot

:23:24.:23:29.

simply take a day off. The cows must be milked, if not they get

:23:29.:23:35.

sick, and that means vet's bills or worse. The sad economic truth is

:23:35.:23:39.

every litre that comes from these cows loses the couple money. Why do

:23:39.:23:42.

they carry on? Having invested so much in the herd and equipment,

:23:42.:23:46.

they are just desperate for something to turn up.

:23:46.:23:51.

If I could go back, I wouldn't have come into dairy, when my father-in-

:23:51.:23:55.

law was young, they had a good life, they were still struggling, but not

:23:55.:23:58.

dealing with what they are dealing with now. Everyone out there wants

:23:58.:24:02.

a cut. Everyone makes money out of the dairy farmers, except the dairy

:24:02.:24:07.

farmer. We just can't take it any more. What is wrong with this

:24:07.:24:10.

industry depends entirely who you speak to, for the farmers it is a

:24:10.:24:15.

simple matter, the supermarkets and the processors have all the kards,

:24:15.:24:18.

they dictate the terms -- cards, they dictate the terms and say what

:24:18.:24:25.

price they are going to pay, and they won't pay a penny more. For

:24:25.:24:30.

others it is oversupply, too many farmers, too efficient and

:24:30.:24:35.

producing too much milk. It is argued some of them will have to

:24:35.:24:40.

move on and do something else. Farmers have taken to direct action,

:24:40.:24:47.

with blockades all over the country. Many see Wim Duisenberg dairy as

:24:47.:24:53.

one of the biggest criminal, they have been taking over by Muller in

:24:53.:24:58.

January, and has cut the prices, and another 1.7p cut is due next

:24:58.:25:01.

month. The reason farmers are finding things so difficult at the

:25:01.:25:04.

moment, is the two price cuts that have happened through the spring

:25:04.:25:09.

and summer, which were 2p each, adding up to 4p, that has come at

:25:09.:25:13.

the same time as their costs of production have gone up. So, fuel

:25:13.:25:17.

and fertiliser costs have gone up. And they have also had a period of

:25:17.:25:22.

very bad weather, which has meant, in many dairy farming areas, the

:25:22.:25:26.

farmers have had to bring their cows back inside into the sheds and

:25:26.:25:30.

are feeding them full winter rations, their costs of production

:25:30.:25:34.

have gone up. Those two factors together mean that from a place

:25:34.:25:40.

where the average dairy farmer was probably at about break even, this

:25:40.:25:44.

April they are now losing between 5p-6p a litre of milk that they

:25:44.:25:47.

produce. The price that farmers get for milk,

:25:47.:25:52.

per ly theer, is pretty much back at what it was in the mid-1990s,

:25:52.:25:55.

the industry has responded by getting much more efficient. This

:25:55.:26:05.
:26:05.:26:10.

is what the average dairy cow was producing back in 200 0.

:26:10.:26:14.

You can't take a holiday, you are here every day, seven days a week.

:26:14.:26:17.

And yet, you are not making money on that? We haven't made any money

:26:17.:26:22.

in the last 14 years. Do you see a prospect of a change?

:26:22.:26:26.

None whatsoever. If the Government doesn't deal with it this time, and

:26:26.:26:31.

the Government says their hands are tied. The Government needs to sit

:26:31.:26:35.

in and give us an adjudicator. Saying these are reasonable terms

:26:35.:26:39.

and these are not? And to say to the processors you can't do this to

:26:39.:26:43.

farmer, make it fair, they can't drop the price when they feel like

:26:43.:26:46.

it. Name and shame all the retailers doing it. So the pressure

:26:46.:26:51.

is on everyone, for the supermarkets to show they are

:26:51.:26:56.

paying a fair price. Today, the Co- Op, have announced they will

:26:56.:27:00.

increase what they pay. Earlier in the week, Asda was tell MPs, they

:27:00.:27:04.

too, will increase what they pay. I'm delighted with the press

:27:04.:27:09.

release from Asda, that milk is going up 2-3p to the farmer. How

:27:09.:27:14.

did we get here in the first place. 2010 you slashed your prices in

:27:14.:27:22.

Asda from �1.53 for four pints of milk to a �16789 all very well for

:27:22.:27:28.

Asda to run milk as a loss leader who will pay for it? The farmer.

:27:28.:27:32.

have a duty and obligation at both endss of the chain, we have a duty

:27:32.:27:35.

and obligation to the farmer, and the customer, particularly at a

:27:35.:27:40.

time when they are finding it difficult to make ends meet.

:27:40.:27:43.

the ends aren't meeting on this hold anything sury. There may be

:27:43.:27:49.

some gold mine dairy arms in Britain, this clearly isn't one of

:27:49.:27:55.

them. -- dairy farms in Britain, this clearly ain't one of them.

:27:55.:28:04.

you are hiding any Rolls-Royces you are doing it very well? I'm waiting

:28:04.:28:10.

for my car to pack up, the bull had a go it. We're in Glasgow with the

:28:10.:28:15.

review show in a minute. Tonight on the review show we have

:28:15.:28:20.

a proper knees up out east, with the new exhibition of David

:28:20.:28:24.

Bailey's photographs of his old stomping ground, the highlights of

:28:24.:28:28.

the Olympic Park, and the sporting extravaganza, and new films in the

:28:28.:28:33.

likes of Mike Leigh and Ramsay ra.. Join me and my guests in a -- Lynne

:28:33.:28:37.

Ramsay, join me and my guests in a moment.

:28:37.:28:47.
:28:47.:29:26.

That's all from Newsnight tonight, we couldn't leave you without mark

:29:26.:29:30.

ago very good for the anglo-Saxons in France, Mark Cavendish won

:29:30.:29:33.

today's stage of Tour de France, and barring some kind of disaster,

:29:33.:29:38.

Bradley Wiggins is more or less assured, of winning the whole event

:29:38.:29:45.

on Sunday. He will be the first- ever winner.

:29:45.:29:50.