23/07/2012 Newsnight


23/07/2012

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Jeremy Paxman.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 23/07/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Tonight, is the way to crack down on clever but legal tax avoidance

:00:14.:00:17.

schemes, to name and shame those who profit from them. If there

:00:17.:00:20.

really is something so wrong with the schemes, why not change the

:00:20.:00:23.

law? You also need to remember to do

:00:23.:00:27.

your tax return on-line, pay anything you owe by the 31st of

:00:27.:00:30.

January...$$NEWLINE For those avoiding the tax man, the Treasury

:00:30.:00:34.

insists it is going to get tough. What can Government actually do.

:00:35.:00:38.

Treasury Minister, David Gauke s here to explain, and tell us why he

:00:38.:00:44.

thinks even paying tradesmen in cash is morally wrong.

:00:44.:00:47.

Female genital mutilation, the horrific butchery of young girls

:00:48.:00:50.

practised in some communities, is happening here in Britain. It is

:00:50.:00:54.

against the law, so why have there been no convictions. What would you

:00:54.:00:59.

do if the girl had blue eyes and blonde hair, would it be carrying

:00:59.:01:02.

on in the UK. Who would have thought problems in

:01:02.:01:07.

the lovely Spanish region of Valencia might rattle the whole of

:01:07.:01:12.

Europe? Paul Mason? Europe's politicians are staring at

:01:12.:01:14.

a 400 billion bail out they don't have the money for.

:01:14.:01:19.

On another day of fear and fighting on frontlines of Syria's war with

:01:19.:01:23.

itself, the Assad regime confirms it has chemical weapons. We have a

:01:23.:01:25.

special report from the Syrian border.

:01:25.:01:29.

TRANSLATION: They are trying to carry out sectarian cleansing, to

:01:29.:01:35.

push all the Sunni Muslims out of the villages, to create their own

:01:35.:01:42.

Alawite state. Good evening, the Treasury Minister,

:01:42.:01:46.

David Gauke, reminded us today that those who pay their taxes are

:01:46.:01:49.

extremely irritate bid those who don't. In talking about targeting

:01:49.:01:52.

aggressive tax avoidance schemes, which apyre to be legal, what does

:01:52.:01:56.

the Government really have in mind. If the schemes are so dodgy, why

:01:56.:02:01.

are they not outlawed. What of the views expressed on tomorrow's front

:02:01.:02:05.

pages, that paying traits tradesmen in cash is morally wrong. The

:02:05.:02:09.

minister will speak in a moment. First Allegra Stratton explains

:02:09.:02:18.

some of the Government's thinking. For the Olympic family visiting

:02:18.:02:23.

London the next three weeks should fly by in the lanes, the superfit

:02:23.:02:28.

and the superfit's hangers on, able to pass through the capital on

:02:28.:02:33.

lanes uncluttered by mere mortals. Going way back, the superrich have

:02:33.:02:37.

also enjoyed what could be called the economy zil lanes, finding the

:02:37.:02:41.

trap doors and escape hatch doors that slice through normal tax

:02:41.:02:47.

paying behaviour. A cut in the top rate of tax from 50p to 45p in the

:02:47.:02:50.

last budget suggesting an even smoother ride for the elite. Far

:02:50.:02:53.

from it, the Government insists. are building on the work we have

:02:53.:02:57.

already done to make life difficult for those who artificially, and

:02:57.:03:02.

aggressively reduce their tax bill. These schemes damage our ability to

:03:02.:03:05.

fund public services, and provide support to those who need them.

:03:05.:03:09.

They harm businesses by distorting competition, they damage public

:03:09.:03:13.

confidence, and they undermine the actions of the vast majority of

:03:13.:03:18.

tax-payers, who pay more in tax as a consequence of others enjoying a

:03:18.:03:26.

free ride. Jimmy Carr getting out of his car,

:03:26.:03:30.

and here just being revealed to have enjoyed quite a cheap ride, if

:03:30.:03:35.

not a free one. He was advised to pay his salary into a K2 offshore

:03:35.:03:41.

trust, which saw a lower rate of tax. Legal and fully disclosed to

:03:41.:03:44.

HMRC, the Prime Minister, nonetheless, described it as

:03:44.:03:47.

morally wrong, the comedian apologised. Government was already

:03:47.:03:52.

taking action to stamp out avoidance, with a new general anti-

:03:52.:03:56.

avoidance rule, met by fines of a million pounds if flouted. On

:03:57.:04:00.

Sunday research emerged showing �13 trillion is held in offshore

:04:00.:04:05.

accounts around the world. Today's consultation proposes closing some

:04:05.:04:09.

more bits of road. The Government believes 14% of all unpaid income

:04:09.:04:14.

tax is due to aggressive avoidance schemes. This is behaviour not

:04:14.:04:19.

illegal, but not very sporting, to use an on-trend adjective. It is

:04:19.:04:25.

for those who contriumph to short change the Exchequer. HMRC will get

:04:25.:04:30.

new powers to discover details of wealthy clients take advantage of

:04:31.:04:36.

schemes, and discover how all the tax avoidance schemes work, not the

:04:36.:04:39.

ones only criticised. If penalised, they will provide more information.

:04:39.:04:43.

There are all these tax accountants across the country, who live a

:04:43.:04:46.

little bit close to the edge, in terms of what's legal tax avoidance.

:04:46.:04:51.

What they are trying to do with this consultation is ask those tax

:04:51.:04:55.

advisers, who I like to think of as the mice in this scenario, to tell

:04:55.:05:00.

the cat, which is HMRC, a bit earlier on in the chase about where

:05:00.:05:03.

they are planning to run away to. And HMRC can give an earlier

:05:03.:05:06.

opinion as to whether or not this is going to be legal or not.

:05:06.:05:11.

you see why people think that these practices should just be made

:05:11.:05:16.

illegal rather in this ambiguous territory of being morally

:05:16.:05:20.

outrageous? They do make things illegal after the fact. HMRC spends

:05:20.:05:25.

a lot of time in the Finance Bill trying to close loopholes. This

:05:25.:05:29.

scheme would give earlier notice of what the intended events are, in

:05:29.:05:33.

terms of getting round the loopholes. The issue around bring

:05:33.:05:39.

anything law, is that law, people, accountants, barristers, will find

:05:39.:05:44.

ways around that law. It will be game of cat and mouse, as you find

:05:44.:05:49.

a way through, Government then has to refine that law and close it

:05:49.:05:55.

down. That is very expensive for parliament, it takes a lot of time,

:05:55.:05:58.

keep trying to think about it and closing down what the next route is

:05:58.:06:02.

going to be. One of the significant things about

:06:02.:06:05.

this morning's speech is it is a Conservative minister making the

:06:05.:06:09.

case for tax avoidance clampdown, not a Lib Dem. The Chancellor and

:06:09.:06:13.

Prime Minister have said plenty in this area, but orderly it is the

:06:13.:06:16.

Lib Dems who get to announce the new policies. The trouble is, since

:06:16.:06:20.

the budget and the cut in the 50p rate, the Tories know the sense

:06:20.:06:23.

that they are the friends of the rich and powerful is even greater.

:06:23.:06:26.

It is they who have to be seen to be getting back as much as they

:06:26.:06:32.

have given away. Some critics think the Government is just skimming the

:06:32.:06:36.

surface. A significant percentage of the world's tax havens are

:06:36.:06:39.

actually UK overseas territories or crown dependencies. For example,

:06:39.:06:45.

Jersey, the Isle of Man, the Kayman eye lafrpbds. These are places we -

:06:45.:06:51.

- Kayman islands, these are the places we have the right to

:06:51.:06:54.

legislate for. It is something to keep the press aware, or in the

:06:55.:06:59.

press, aware of what the Government want. But in reality, it does have

:06:59.:07:04.

no teeth to it. The Government wants the superrich,

:07:04.:07:08.

including even donors and friends in the City, to think they are

:07:08.:07:12.

running out of road. Their efforts may be no match for the sat-navs of

:07:12.:07:17.

the very wealthy. The Treasury Minister, David Gauke,

:07:17.:07:22.

is here to give his account of what be achieve pbl in tackling all of

:07:22.:07:26.

this. You talked about name -- achievable

:07:26.:07:29.

in tackling all of this. You talked about naming and shaming the

:07:29.:07:33.

advisers, go ahead, what are the names of these people? I'm not in a

:07:33.:07:37.

position to run through a list of names here and now. Why not? That

:07:37.:07:42.

is not how the system currently works, what we are looking at doing

:07:42.:07:47.

is strengthening the disclosure of tax avoidance schemes rules, so

:07:47.:07:53.

there is more information available to HMRC at an early stage. Where

:07:53.:07:56.

HMRC are able to take action if they need to change the law, or we

:07:56.:08:00.

need to change the law in order to close a loophole, we can do so at

:08:00.:08:06.

an early stage. If a scheme is ineffective and very often they are,

:08:06.:08:10.

HMRC can take litigation action at an early stage and warn off people.

:08:10.:08:13.

When you talk about naming and shaming, you don't really mean that,

:08:13.:08:17.

we have due process in this country, and you can't have a Government

:08:17.:08:21.

minister or HMRC tarting people and saying, publicly, we don't like how

:08:21.:08:27.

you do your tax stuff, you do it privately and it ends up in a tax

:08:27.:08:32.

tribunal? When something goes to a tax tribunal, and HMRC succeeds,

:08:32.:08:36.

they are in a position to put out information about these are the

:08:36.:08:39.

promoters, who for example have promoted a scheme that doesn't work.

:08:40.:08:44.

After? Yes. And next time someone is approached and says this is a

:08:44.:08:47.

fantastic scheme, they have the ability to look and see, here is

:08:47.:08:51.

the same of someone, this person has -- the name of someone who is

:08:51.:08:54.

promoting dodgy schemes. That information ought to be out there.

:08:54.:09:00.

That is wonderful, except for one flaw, the backlog is 20,000 tax

:09:00.:09:05.

tribunal cases which HMRC says at the current rate could take 38

:09:05.:09:09.

years to clear up. You could put the money in getting people through

:09:09.:09:14.

tax tribunals and then name and shame? That story isn't right. It

:09:14.:09:17.

sounds a lot, but there are a lot of lead cases, when one case is

:09:17.:09:22.

dealt with, a lot of other cases fall away. There isn't a particular

:09:22.:09:25.

problem that we need to be overly worried about. There is a new

:09:26.:09:29.

system in place that is settling in all right. I don't think there is a

:09:29.:09:34.

big issue with that. HMRC have got more resources to deal with tax

:09:34.:09:38.

avoidance and evasion, than they have had in the past. The focus is

:09:38.:09:42.

to a greater extent on avoidance and evasion, they have the

:09:42.:09:45.

capability. They are having a good run in terms of litigation, a lot

:09:46.:09:50.

of these schemes are failing. HMRC are having a lot of success here.

:09:50.:09:55.

We want to put out more information to tax-payers, so they can see if a

:09:55.:09:59.

scheme isn't working. Also, that we are able to respond quickly f we

:09:59.:10:04.

need to close down a scheme. I want to talk to you about tomorrow

:10:04.:10:08.

morning's front pages, you have already seen the Telegraph saying

:10:08.:10:13.

it is morally wrong, attributed and quoted to you, to pay tradesmen

:10:13.:10:18.

cash in hand? What does that mean f the window cleaner comes round you

:10:18.:10:23.

can't pay them in cash? Of course you do and people will continue to

:10:23.:10:27.

do. The specific points, I'm not sure the article reflects that. The

:10:27.:10:32.

specific point I was making is when a tradesman says, here is a 20%

:10:32.:10:38.

discount on your bill f you pay me cash-in-hand, that is facilitating

:10:38.:10:43.

the hidden economy. That is as big a problem in terms of loss to the

:10:43.:10:48.

Exchequer as tax avoidance. That is meaning that revenue isn't being

:10:48.:10:54.

paid that should be paid. You have never done, that unlike millions of

:10:54.:10:57.

people presumably across Britain? have never said to a tradesman if I

:10:57.:11:02.

pay you cash can I get a discount, no. Do you think any of your

:11:02.:11:05.

colleagues have done that? I don't know. If people Diamonds Will Do

:11:05.:11:10.

that, they have to do so with -- do that -- if people do that, they

:11:10.:11:14.

have to do it with the recognition taxes will be higher for the rest.

:11:14.:11:18.

That hidden economy is a large part of the issue. Do you think the BBC

:11:18.:11:22.

has got it wrong in paying some people through service companies,

:11:22.:11:26.

they shouldn't do it? I think the point I would make on that is that

:11:26.:11:31.

it does depend on the specific circumstances. There are perfectly

:11:31.:11:33.

reasonable circumstances where someone may be paid through a

:11:33.:11:37.

service company. But if, as a matter of course, an employer,

:11:37.:11:41.

whether the BBC or anybody else, pays people who are essentially

:11:41.:11:47.

employees, working full-time for them, not going off to other

:11:47.:11:51.

organisations, through service companies, for the purposes of

:11:51.:11:53.

reducing national insurance contribution liability, I think

:11:53.:11:59.

that is wrong. You think the BBC may have been doing this? I'm not

:11:59.:12:07.

in a position to comment on the specific circumstances of an

:12:07.:12:11.

individual case. If you try to get round the usual tax system that

:12:11.:12:15.

applies to employees, but using service companies instead, so you

:12:15.:12:18.

pay less in national insurance contributions, then there clearly

:12:19.:12:23.

is artificial tax avoidance. That is wrong. One final quick question,

:12:23.:12:28.

which also falls within your gambit, the Trade Minister in charge of

:12:28.:12:33.

HSBC, when it was accused of money laundering, a serious offence,

:12:33.:12:36.

taken up very seriously in the United States. When do you think he

:12:36.:12:41.

should give an account of what he knew and when he knew it? I'm sure

:12:41.:12:45.

Lord Green will give a full account at the appropriate time. I'm sure

:12:45.:12:52.

he will want to respond at the right time. And you should do.

:12:52.:12:58.

Allegations have clearly been made against HSBC. But, yeah, I think

:12:58.:13:02.

Lord Green is someone with a reputation for integrity, I'm sure

:13:02.:13:06.

he will want to set out his case in due course. You would like to hear

:13:07.:13:10.

it? I'm sure he will set out his case in due course.

:13:11.:13:15.

Now, thousands of women and girls living here in the UK have been

:13:15.:13:19.

subjected to the practice of female genital mutilation, the custom of

:13:19.:13:24.

FGM, as it is known, is widely practised in some ethnic minority

:13:24.:13:28.

communities in Britain, and made illegal 30 years ago. Since then

:13:28.:13:31.

not a single prosecution has been brought. Now there are reports that

:13:31.:13:36.

some young girls are brought to Britain to be mutilated.

:13:36.:13:40.

We have been investigating, on learning of this report, the head

:13:40.:13:43.

of the Crown Prosecution Service has said he is determined to find

:13:43.:13:48.

way to prosecute those guilty of cutting young girls and some. Some

:13:48.:13:53.

of the imimages in this report are explicit, you may find them

:13:53.:14:03.
:14:03.:14:05.

upsetting. Parliament outlawed female genital

:14:05.:14:08.

mutilation nearly 30 years ago. Specialist units were set up at

:14:08.:14:11.

major hospitals throughout the country to help those already

:14:11.:14:18.

mutilated. Later, it was made an offence to

:14:18.:14:22.

take a British-born girl abroad for the purposes of mutilation.

:14:22.:14:27.

And yet, thousands of girls in the UK today are still at risk.

:14:28.:14:33.

My legs were spread, I thought this is not right, then I felt this pain,

:14:33.:14:37.

I remember just screaming and I think everyone was just shocked, it

:14:37.:14:44.

was like I had 50 pairs of hands cover my mouth my nose, I was

:14:44.:14:52.

fighting, fighting, fighting. I can hear it the sound, just the cutting.

:14:52.:14:55.

Emma explained she was 14 when she was taken from Brixton to Sierra

:14:55.:15:00.

Leone to be cut. She's at the FGM clinic at St Thomas's, because

:15:00.:15:04.

she's about to get married and she's worried. I realise a part of

:15:04.:15:08.

me was musing, then I started to feel -- missing, and then I started

:15:09.:15:12.

to feel very different from anybody else. If I'm with all my

:15:12.:15:16.

girlfriends, I feel different. There are certain things that they

:15:16.:15:24.

can feel that I may never get to experience. Comfort Momoh, the

:15:25.:15:29.

country's expert on FGM, says most of the women she sees has what's

:15:29.:15:37.

known as Type 3. This is a typical example of Type 3, as you can see

:15:37.:15:42.

the clitoris is missing here, and the closure here, and leaving a

:15:42.:15:46.

small opening there. Out of which urine, menstrual blood, everything

:15:46.:15:52.

has to come. Even having sexual intercourse will be so painful. And

:15:52.:15:56.

for some women to achieve penetration can take up to six

:15:56.:16:00.

months, unfortunately. She travels the UK explaining how to repair

:16:01.:16:05.

women who have been cut. To ease sexual intercourse and childbirth.

:16:05.:16:10.

And finds that the facilities available for the task vary.

:16:10.:16:15.

England we have about 17 clinics that support women and girls. I do

:16:15.:16:22.

travel a lot. I provide support to other midwives, doctors, and

:16:22.:16:26.

professionals, but I feel that in Scotland they are not ready for the

:16:26.:16:29.

number of immigrants that they are receiving and they need lots of

:16:29.:16:38.

support. Scotland's experience with

:16:38.:16:44.

communities who practice FGM is very new. It was only ten years ago,

:16:44.:16:48.

with the Government's refugee dispersal policy, that the tower

:16:48.:16:52.

blocks of Glasgow filled with new immigrants, from those countries,

:16:52.:16:56.

like Somalia, where women are routinely mutilated, in the name of

:16:56.:17:00.

purification. To ensure that they experience no

:17:00.:17:08.

sexual pleasure. Having intercourse was more painful

:17:08.:17:12.

than giving birth. I did shout and scream, but he didn't care, all he

:17:12.:17:16.

wanted to know was if I'm a virgin or not. The Africans, some of them

:17:16.:17:23.

believe it is something that should be done, like every woman needs to

:17:23.:17:30.

be circumcised. Others don't believe in it.

:17:30.:17:36.

Faceded with a new population of thousands of mutilated women, and

:17:36.:17:39.

as many children at risk, the Scottish Government rushed through

:17:39.:17:43.

laws, some years after they were passed in England. Making FGM

:17:43.:17:51.

illegal here, and for parents to take their children abroad to do it.

:17:51.:17:55.

Nicky Loughran, a lawyer specialising in asylum, meets with

:17:55.:18:00.

immigrants regularly. She says she knows the law forbidding FGM is

:18:00.:18:05.

being broken. We cannot assume it suddenly stops when family crosses

:18:05.:18:11.

a border, that they suddenly lose their culture of centuries. And

:18:11.:18:15.

they suddenly become "British" in their way of thinking and in their

:18:15.:18:20.

attitude to their daughters, and in their attitude to virginity and

:18:20.:18:25.

monogamy, cleanliness, all reasons, all stated reasons for continuing

:18:25.:18:29.

circumcision in girls. Do they know the law, do they know it is illegal

:18:29.:18:34.

in this country? No, I don't think so. People need to know the law

:18:34.:18:39.

will be enforced. There hasn't been a single

:18:39.:18:46.

prosecution against FGM in Scotland, or in the UK as a whole.

:18:46.:18:50.

Ayanna told me of two recent incidents of girls being cut in

:18:50.:18:55.

Glasgow. One was three, and the other one was just about two weeks.

:18:55.:19:00.

By whom? Mostly by the elderly women, the parents' mums. What

:19:00.:19:06.

method do they use? Scissor, blade or a sharp knife. Who is making the

:19:06.:19:10.

community feel this way, is it the women or the men? It is the choice

:19:10.:19:15.

of the man, if the man is wanting to marry a woman, he needs a woman

:19:15.:19:21.

that has been circumcised. So they force the women to circumcise their

:19:21.:19:31.

daughters, in order for them to marry their daughters.

:19:31.:19:35.

What do the men say? In a local hangout for Somali men, I asked

:19:35.:19:40.

them, do they really want their women mutilated? No, most of them

:19:40.:19:45.

said, it is their mothers who want it. Not the woman, it is the mother

:19:45.:19:48.

of the children, they do their children. Others said they didn't

:19:48.:19:52.

much care either way. If you want to do it, you can do it, if you

:19:52.:19:56.

don't want, you don't do it, you know.

:19:56.:20:01.

You wonder why the two sexes don't talk to one another. Some mothers

:20:01.:20:07.

they cannot be understanding. group of Somali women, all who have

:20:07.:20:10.

been cut, say they wish the authorities would do more to help.

:20:10.:20:15.

By getting the anti-FGM message across. If the authorities can help

:20:15.:20:20.

us to make these people to stop t I would be very happy. Since I came

:20:20.:20:24.

here I have never heard about it. I have had two years in this country,

:20:24.:20:28.

I have never heard of this. They need classes telling what happens,

:20:28.:20:37.

what is right, what is wrong. women also want help when they

:20:37.:20:41.

return to their country of origin for holidays, where many

:20:41.:20:46.

mutilations take place. The authorities, they say, could

:20:46.:20:49.

threaten to check girls on their return.

:20:50.:20:54.

It is dangerous if families go back to Africa, because the child will

:20:54.:20:57.

spend time with the grannies more than you. They may take your

:20:57.:21:00.

daughter, there is nothing you can do about it. All they will tell you

:21:00.:21:10.
:21:10.:21:10.

is they have done it, that's it, that's it.

:21:10.:21:14.

Many newly-arrived mothers, who have been mutilated, don't attend

:21:14.:21:18.

antenatal clinics. Doctors are confronted with a woman who needs

:21:18.:21:24.

to be unstitched urgently, only when she arrives at the hospital in

:21:24.:21:30.

labour. If a baby girl is born to a mother who comes from a community

:21:30.:21:40.
:21:40.:21:46.

that routinely does GFM mutilation. But should that child be placed on

:21:46.:21:50.

an "at-risk" register and kept up with. When I spoke to the midwives

:21:50.:21:54.

concerned in Glasgow I was told I couldn't, but was assured that

:21:54.:21:58.

policies and protocols are in place. When I wanted to interview social

:21:58.:22:03.

workers to ask they keep an eye on girls who could be at risk, I was

:22:03.:22:07.

told there were no social workers available, with sufficient

:22:07.:22:13.

experience of FGM. When I asked to talk to head

:22:13.:22:18.

teachers, I was told I couldn't, there were no guidelines issued to

:22:18.:22:24.

schools on FGM. Why does no-one want to talk?

:22:24.:22:28.

wish that people did talk about it more, so that the subject is raised.

:22:28.:22:33.

I'm amazed that you are meeting a wall of silence from the very

:22:33.:22:36.

professionals that I would think would really want to grapple with

:22:36.:22:46.
:22:46.:22:49.

it, in the best interests of the child.

:22:50.:22:54.

Is the situation any better across the border in England? Where laws

:22:54.:22:59.

against FGM were introduced back in the 1980s.

:22:59.:23:03.

A lot of people thought it was taboo, a lot of people would be

:23:03.:23:06.

like it's women's bits, you shouldn't be talking about that in

:23:06.:23:10.

public. A group of schoolgirls, here in Bristol, are so frustrated

:23:10.:23:14.

by the way people don't talk about FGM, that they have made their own

:23:14.:23:24.
:23:24.:23:26.

film. The Silent Scream depicts a family

:23:26.:23:29.

where the parents are at odds over whether to mutilate their youngest

:23:29.:23:33.

daughter, whom the older sister is trying to protect. We live in the

:23:33.:23:37.

21st century, things have changed, can't you see that. Break-away from

:23:37.:23:42.

our tradition. Who will want to marry her if she doesn't. Men don't

:23:42.:23:52.
:23:52.:23:57.

want it. That is what you say, Those statistics show how little

:23:57.:24:04.

the Government is doing to stop FGM. They are so terrified, and they are

:24:04.:24:07.

using cultural sensitivity as a barrier to stop themselves from

:24:07.:24:11.

really doing anything. What would you do if the girl had blue eyes

:24:11.:24:15.

and blonde hair, would FGM still be carrying on in the UK. Do you have

:24:15.:24:21.

a message for David Cameron? grow a pair and do something about

:24:21.:24:25.

FGM! If you can't handle the issue, then there is no point of you doing

:24:25.:24:30.

your job. They say the majority of women in

:24:30.:24:35.

their community are mutilated, and that the girls get cut at FGM

:24:35.:24:41.

parties in Bristol. They have the parties like all in one go, all the

:24:41.:24:47.

girls come together with the parents, the party is because it is

:24:47.:24:50.

cheaper and get it all over at the same time. Who is doing the

:24:50.:24:54.

cutting? Either the mothers, or they get the mum who is experienced

:24:54.:25:04.
:25:04.:25:04.

in cutting, an elder in the community to come and do it T

:25:05.:25:12.

Their film ends with the fact that everyone finds bewildering.

:25:12.:25:17.

At Scotland Yard they say they have had 82 incidents of FGM reported to

:25:17.:25:27.
:25:27.:25:28.

them. Why don't they prosecute? not necessarily sure that the the

:25:28.:25:32.

availability of a stronger sense of the likelihood of being prosecuted

:25:32.:25:38.

will necessarily change it for the better.

:25:38.:25:44.

The police claim that the lack of prosecutions is due, in part, to

:25:44.:25:49.

the difficulty in investigation. In France, where there have been some

:25:49.:25:54.

100 convictionings for FGM, all school-aged children are inspected.

:25:54.:26:00.

Why don't we do that here? convictions for FGM, why don't we

:26:00.:26:08.

do that here? Inspection in our times could be considered a form of

:26:08.:26:12.

abuse. We need to be careful with the law in this country that we

:26:12.:26:17.

should not encourage behaviour towards a child, against their will,

:26:17.:26:22.

even in their personal interest, if that behaviour itself amounts to

:26:22.:26:30.

something that is child abuse. And that has been the received

:26:30.:26:35.

wisdom in this country for nearly 30 years.

:26:35.:26:39.

Meanwhile, the latest figures released on FGM in the UK suggest

:26:39.:26:46.

that the number of mutilations taking place is increasing.

:26:46.:26:49.

Tomorrow Sue will be reporting on how France takes a much tougher

:26:49.:26:54.

line on FGM than the UK. We will have a special studio debate,

:26:54.:26:57.

including the Home Office Minister, we will be asking what more needs

:26:57.:27:02.

to be done to stop FGM. Well, it was groundhog day, one more time

:27:02.:27:07.

again today on the European money markets, as the long-running soap

:27:07.:27:14.

opera of the euro, again unsettled nervous traders. It was the region

:27:14.:27:17.

of Valencia, looking for cash from the Spanish Government, pushing

:27:17.:27:22.

Spain's bond yields into the disaster zone. And pushing down the

:27:22.:27:26.

major stock market measure down by 5% at one point. Paul Mason has

:27:26.:27:30.

been looking at the chronic de disease that won't go away. What

:27:30.:27:34.

unsettled the markets today? people who decided who wants to

:27:34.:27:40.

hold Spanish debt, they said this economy is shrinking by 1.5% per an

:27:40.:27:45.

number, the regions are slowly going bust, they are -- per year,

:27:46.:27:49.

the regions are slowly going bust, they provide merge he is services

:27:49.:27:58.

and the Government is coming out with one statement of denial after

:27:58.:28:01.

another. This is the cost of borrowing on the market over the

:28:01.:28:07.

past six months. Today, at 7.5% is the highest it has ever been in the

:28:07.:28:13.

eurozone, it is a signal where the time may come where Spain can't

:28:13.:28:19.

borrow on the markets. That had an impact on Spanish stock markets,

:28:19.:28:23.

the shares fell by up to 5%, and the Government stepped in and

:28:23.:28:27.

banned short selling. We remember short selling from the Lehman

:28:27.:28:33.

Brothers days, that is a signal of crisis. The German stock market

:28:33.:28:39.

fell 3%, some German banks were hammered. Greece topped off the day

:28:39.:28:44.

with a one-day fall of 7%, it would be remarkable if it were not a time

:28:44.:28:49.

where it keeps on happening. It is still startling how Greece can

:28:49.:28:53.

still unsettle the markets? Greece, the noises coming from

:28:53.:28:57.

German politicians, unnamed sources in the IMF, all saying the new

:28:57.:29:02.

Government, the coalition of everybody but the left supposed to

:29:02.:29:07.

sort things out, it isn't happening fast enough, the fiem time may come

:29:07.:29:12.

to pull the plug on Greece. It is more uncertainty. What about Spain?

:29:12.:29:19.

It has to borrow 150 billion euros in two years, another 150 billion

:29:19.:29:23.

for sister, another 160 billion caused by overborrowing, the deep

:29:23.:29:29.

trepidation in Spain that they can't do it. A 400 euro bail out,

:29:29.:29:32.

that is what it would need, is money the ruen European Union just

:29:32.:29:37.

doesn't have at the moment. We have -- the European Union just doesn't

:29:37.:29:41.

have moment. We have ratings agency talking about Germany and Holland,

:29:41.:29:43.

talking about downgrading your sovereign debt rating because of

:29:43.:29:51.

this. Lovely, thank you very much. With me now is Megan Green, and the

:29:51.:29:58.

economist Ken Rogoff also joins us. The Spanish economy minister is

:29:58.:30:04.

saying Spain doesn't need a full bail out, do you think he's right?

:30:04.:30:10.

I don't it will turn out they don't need a bail out. Spain will end up

:30:10.:30:16.

needing money. Things are clearly going down hill. The Spanish rekals

:30:16.:30:22.

transabout accepting a bail out, German ambivalence about giving one,

:30:22.:30:26.

and France's dubts about having a political union, all mean we can't

:30:26.:30:30.

get aic -- Downing Street about having a political union, all means

:30:30.:30:37.

we can't have but have Downing Street about this. Surely the whole

:30:37.:30:43.

European economy isn't dependant on a few Spanish municipalities paying

:30:44.:30:48.

their bills? You have Catalonia, the economy the size of Portugal

:30:48.:30:54.

that might need a bail out from Spain. Their public debt is

:30:54.:30:57.

untenable, but its external debt position is completely

:30:57.:31:00.

unsustainable, I don't see any way that Spain can afford a bail out.

:31:00.:31:05.

When Spain gets a bail out, unfortunately, Italy is right

:31:05.:31:08.

behind it. The big picture here, we have been talking about this, all

:31:08.:31:14.

of us, with monotonous regularity for a few years, is the big picture

:31:14.:31:17.

there is no structural solution to the eurozone's problems, because it

:31:17.:31:21.

was never conceived to deal with this, and the politicians haven't

:31:21.:31:28.

really got a clue? Nobody knows. They clearly need much more of a

:31:28.:31:31.

political union, eventually, to stablise things. They have to put

:31:31.:31:36.

that on the map, they have to put that on the horizon for anything to

:31:36.:31:40.

work. You need unlimited support here, that doesn't have credibility

:31:40.:31:43.

without movement towards a political union. I think they have

:31:43.:31:48.

a lot of cards to play. I would be very reluctant to say it is about

:31:48.:31:54.

to fall apart tomorrow. The problem is, it is such an existential risk,

:31:54.:31:59.

nobody knows how it will play out f it does blow up, it really unnerves

:31:59.:32:02.

markets. They are nowhere near settling things, because they just

:32:02.:32:06.

don't have agreement on the fundamentals. Aren't they on the

:32:06.:32:11.

road, they say, to some kind of political union. We have gone

:32:11.:32:15.

through the French election, we have had all the nice warm words,

:32:15.:32:18.

they constantly tell us they are on the road to sorting it. They have

:32:18.:32:21.

solved the immediate problem, and in the long-term there will be this

:32:21.:32:29.

union that you talk about? I think the French election was a giant

:32:29.:32:34.

step backwards, the French basically rejected a lot of the

:32:34.:32:37.

movement towards a more centralised Europe, and yet, there is no

:32:37.:32:41.

solution in the long run without doing that. I think it is clearly

:32:41.:32:46.

that this experiment of trying to have the euro ahead of the

:32:46.:32:50.

political union was not a good idea. Either it is going to blow up, or

:32:50.:32:55.

they are going to move towards union. All these financial

:32:55.:32:59.

engineering solutions, the euro bonds, the European Central Bank

:32:59.:33:02.

coming in, they are tempising measures. Don't think it is

:33:02.:33:09.

necessarily going to end now. These temporising measures, they could

:33:09.:33:15.

work for a while, this could drag out for years. That is a happy note.

:33:15.:33:19.

Megan, you were nodding through that, you agree with that?

:33:19.:33:22.

Political union is the first step, they really need a banking and

:33:22.:33:27.

fiscal union, and then the ECB might be willing to actually step

:33:27.:33:30.

in and provide some support as a bridge. Unfortunate he loo, all of

:33:30.:33:33.

the countries in the eurozone aren't agreed on the end game, or

:33:33.:33:39.

on any of the details. Haven't we got used to it, in a way, this

:33:39.:33:42.

stuff about kicking the can down the road, maybe they can do that

:33:43.:33:46.

for the next eight years? I think Kenneth is right, they are going to

:33:46.:33:50.

buy time with a number of policy rabbit that is they pull out of

:33:50.:33:55.

hats. We are going to lurch from crisis to crisis the euro zone

:33:55.:33:58.

isn't -- eurozone isn't about to fall apart, but if you take

:33:58.:34:03.

everything to extremes there are only two possible outcomes, it

:34:03.:34:08.

disintegrates or moves towards closer union. The core of all this

:34:08.:34:12.

is Germany, and what they are prepared to do and what their

:34:12.:34:17.

Supreme Court finds constitutional to do? That's right, the German

:34:17.:34:21.

constitutional court is waiting until September, they are on summer

:34:21.:34:27.

vacation, to rule whether the latest bail out will be legal. The

:34:27.:34:33.

German politician would argue they are already skirting that they can

:34:33.:34:38.

do constitutionally. I agree with Megan, they need a fast fiscal and

:34:38.:34:42.

banking union, that is saying they are in a political union. You need

:34:42.:34:48.

legitimacy for that, it has to come at every level, it is a mess.

:34:48.:34:51.

The Syrian Government has publicly admitted what many other

:34:51.:34:54.

Governments in the region already knew, they have chemical weapons.

:34:54.:34:59.

But they said they would be use the only against foreign agressors, not

:34:59.:35:02.

against their own civilian population. It is not much of a

:35:02.:35:07.

comfort, however, especially as they are on record as blaming

:35:07.:35:10.

foreign agressors for much of the trouble in the first place.

:35:10.:35:14.

Today, they are watching the destruction in Syria on TV, but

:35:14.:35:19.

they have lived through it themselves. Some have been damaged

:35:19.:35:24.

beyond repair. This rebel fighter is now recuperating in a flat

:35:24.:35:28.

across the border in Turkey. He lost his leg to a schrapnal wound,

:35:28.:35:31.

after the house he was sheltering in his home province, was shelled

:35:31.:35:38.

by a Government tax. TRANSLATION: I was moved to the

:35:38.:35:46.

field hospital. This bone was smashed, they put a metal plate in

:35:46.:35:51.

there. And also in this food, my left knee was smashed too, and they

:35:51.:35:56.

put wire to keep it straight, like that I was moved to Turkey, but

:35:56.:35:59.

they didn't operate. I spent five- and-a-half months in the hospital

:35:59.:36:05.

here. And then I pound I had gangrene.

:36:05.:36:10.

Before the war he was a decorator, he will not be able to do that

:36:10.:36:15.

again. This man, who arrived two days ago, worked in a clothes shop,

:36:15.:36:19.

he wasn't a fighter, just a protestor. But he still got shot in

:36:19.:36:25.

the stomach, he says, by the pro- regime militia, the Shabiha, the

:36:25.:36:29.

bullet, from a Russian-made heavy machine gun, ripped through his

:36:29.:36:34.

intestines. TRANSLATION: They were shooting

:36:34.:36:38.

everyone who left their house, not just me, but everyone they saw in

:36:38.:36:43.

the street, the whole area was surrounded by the Shabiha. And

:36:44.:36:50.

anyone who left the house was shot. They are all from Hama province, in

:36:50.:36:55.

central Syria, but the war is also going on much closer. Even in the

:36:55.:37:02.

part of Syria you can see from the parliamentary party window.

:37:02.:37:07.

-- the apartment window. There has been talk of a buffer zone along

:37:07.:37:11.

the hills of the border, but Turkey and its western allies have balked

:37:11.:37:16.

at the idea. Today smoke is rising, apparently from Syrian army

:37:16.:37:21.

shelling of rebel positions. The land behind me in northern Syria is

:37:21.:37:25.

still a battleground there are villages and stretches of

:37:25.:37:28.

countryside that have been in rebel hands for months. Inbetween the

:37:28.:37:33.

main roads and some towns are still controlled by the Government. The

:37:33.:37:39.

members' hopes are pinned partly on establishing a single, unbroken

:37:39.:37:42.

expanse of territory from which they could advance, they haven't

:37:42.:37:47.

achieved that yet. Today fighting continued in the northern city of

:37:47.:37:50.

Aleppo, with a Government tank set on fire, and rebel fighters moving

:37:50.:37:53.

through the streets. As they were celebrating their advance, there

:37:53.:37:58.

was a veiled warning to outside powers, from a Government spokesman

:37:58.:38:03.

in the capital, Damascus, acknowledging, for the first time,

:38:03.:38:08.

Syria's chemical weapons stockpile. TRANSLATION: Chemical weapons will

:38:08.:38:13.

not be used during the crisis in Syria, irrespective of developments.

:38:13.:38:17.

These weapons are stored and safeguarded by Syrian forces. They

:38:17.:38:25.

will not be used at all, unless Syria is attacked by foreign forces.

:38:25.:38:28.

But even without foreign intervention, which has effectively

:38:29.:38:35.

been ruled out. The regime's days, most believe, are numbered. Western

:38:35.:38:40.

powers are already considering a post-Assad Syria. The regime will

:38:40.:38:44.

fall, but it will leave Syria in a difficult position. We need to

:38:44.:38:48.

focus on what to do the day after, we don't know when that day will

:38:48.:38:54.

come, but it will come. For the 2,500 Syrians in this sprawling

:38:54.:38:57.

refugee camp in southern Turkey, that day can't come soon enough,

:38:57.:39:01.

although they don't know what they will return to. Many of the people

:39:01.:39:06.

in this camp have been here for more than a year, they hope with

:39:06.:39:09.

the rebels' recent successes that they Maysoon be able to go hom.

:39:09.:39:14.

There are fears that even the fall of the regime in -- home. There are

:39:14.:39:19.

fears that even with the fall of the regime in Damascus, may not end

:39:19.:39:23.

the conflict in their countries. In in this tent is a young Sunni

:39:23.:39:30.

Muslim who fled from the heartland of President Assad's Alawite sect a

:39:30.:39:34.

week ago. He fears his family may suffer if he shows his face.

:39:34.:39:37.

TRANSLATION: They are trying to carry out sectarian cleansing, to

:39:37.:39:42.

push all the Sunni Muslims out of the villages, to create their own

:39:42.:39:47.

Alawite state. It is a new plan, when we left everyone left, no

:39:47.:39:56.

women, no children, the area is deserted.

:39:56.:39:59.

Some think that Bashar Al-Assad will make a final stand in his

:39:59.:40:04.

family region along the coast. It is unlikely he will take up the

:40:04.:40:07.

offer from the Arab League of safe passage out of the country.

:40:08.:40:13.

Whatever happens, this war will alter relations between Syria's

:40:13.:40:17.

Sunni majority, and the Alawite minority, forever. TRANSLATION:

:40:17.:40:20.

Before the revolution relations with the Alawites were normal,

:40:20.:40:27.

after the revolution is changed. If we go on the protest and chant,

:40:28.:40:32.

they will come from the next village and shoot us, for them it

:40:32.:40:39.

is God, Syria and Assad, for them he's like God. Back in the flat in

:40:39.:40:44.

southern Turkey, the wounded rebels are cared for by a dentist from

:40:44.:40:48.

another Syrian minority, he's a Christian, and supports the

:40:48.:40:52.

uprising, but doesn't trust the opposition's exiled leadership, the

:40:52.:40:58.

Syrian National Council. He's worried about sectarian in a post-

:40:58.:41:01.

Assad Syria. TRANSLATION: The force which is dominating the Syrian

:41:01.:41:05.

National Council has the same mentality as the regime. That force

:41:05.:41:08.

is the Muslim Brotherhood. And they are a sectarian group, who base

:41:09.:41:12.

everything on religion. They treat the population like children. We

:41:12.:41:15.

have many secular people in the National Council, highly educated

:41:15.:41:20.

people, but they are sidelined by the Muslim Brotherhood, who want to

:41:20.:41:24.

control everything. Syria's rebels have fought hard, but it is not yet

:41:24.:41:27.

clear who will profit most from their struggle, or what new Syria

:41:27.:41:34.

will emerge. The BBC's commentator has just made

:41:34.:41:38.

it into Aleppo, and a short while ago gave us his assessment of the

:41:38.:41:45.

situation there, he was speaking on a videophone. What you are looking

:41:45.:41:49.

at are burning barricades set up by hundreds of rebel fighters who have

:41:49.:41:53.

just moved into the city itself, from the Aleppo countryside. We

:41:53.:41:57.

have to use night vision, which explains the picture quality, just

:41:57.:42:02.

because it is unsafe to turn major lights on. The rebel fighters were

:42:02.:42:07.

following orders, and poured in from various towns and cities

:42:07.:42:11.

around the Aleppo countryside, because they believed...there as

:42:11.:42:14.

many as six neighbourhoods now up in arms against the regime. Today

:42:14.:42:20.

we saw shelling, certainly of one of the districts, and the sound of

:42:20.:42:24.

heavy gunfire. They feel they have the initiative, the truth is, they

:42:24.:42:29.

are still outmanned and outgunned by the Syrian army, they are

:42:29.:42:33.

waiting to see how they will respond in this particular area.

:42:33.:42:37.

Why does Aleppo matter? It is Syria's second largest city, and

:42:37.:42:41.

the economic hub, it accounts for half of all industry and commerce

:42:41.:42:45.

for the country. If, and it is a large if, President Assad were to

:42:45.:42:49.

lose power here, that would present a significant blow to his control

:42:49.:42:53.

of the country. Our apologise for the poor sound quality.

:42:53.:42:59.

I have also been speaking to Melissa Feming of the UN refugee

:43:00.:43:06.

agency, UNHCH. What are your people on the ground selling you about the

:43:06.:43:10.

situation in Sir -- telling you about the situation in Syria now?

:43:10.:43:14.

The situation in Syria has been very tense for a time. Now the

:43:14.:43:17.

deadly violence is spreading, it has spread to Damascus now. Once

:43:18.:43:23.

considered a haven for people inside the country trying to escape

:43:23.:43:26.

silence from homes. Now what is happening is people are fleeing

:43:26.:43:31.

Damascus in droves. We saw, just last week, in one go, in two days,

:43:31.:43:36.

18,000 people fleeing across the border, into Lebanon. We are

:43:36.:43:43.

reporting tonight allegations of sectarian cleansing of non-Alawites

:43:43.:43:46.

in the area around there, do you have any information on that or

:43:46.:43:50.

similar examples of the killings of people, just because of their faith

:43:50.:43:57.

or background? UNHCR does have 250 staff inside Syria, we do not have

:43:57.:44:02.

staff in that location, so we can't coroborate that. But Iraqis, the

:44:02.:44:06.

people that we have been taking care of, the refugees that have

:44:06.:44:11.

been, for many years, seeking shelter and safety inside Syria,

:44:11.:44:17.

have now been bombarding our hot- lines with tales of terror,

:44:17.:44:22.

actually many of them feel targeted, they say they have been getting

:44:22.:44:28.

death threats, others say they are terrified by the violence, they

:44:28.:44:33.

want to move back to Iraq a place they were not ready to go until now.

:44:33.:44:38.

But bus loads of Iraqis are now going back home. Into all this mix,

:44:38.:44:42.

we heard from the regime theself today, they have confirmed they

:44:42.:44:47.

have chemical weapons. I wonder how that -- regime themselves today,

:44:47.:44:50.

they have confirmed they have chemical weapons, I wonder how that

:44:50.:44:55.

affects your duty of care for your staff? We are concerned for our

:44:55.:45:01.

staff, most of our staff are Syrian nationals. 250UNHCR staff, the

:45:01.:45:06.

majority coming from the region. Many actually already deciding to

:45:06.:45:12.

flee. Chemical weapons, that would be the absolute worst possible

:45:12.:45:17.

scenario. We have no actual plans for that taking place, but we do

:45:17.:45:23.

have stockpiles, huge warehouses full of equipment and full of basic

:45:23.:45:28.

needs for people who are displaced, that is really what UNHCR is all

:45:28.:45:33.

about. If, as you said, there are some 80,000 Iraqis who are worried,

:45:33.:45:36.

having gone to Syria for safety, many now thinking of going back

:45:36.:45:40.

home to Iraq, the scale of this, in terms of the overall Syrian

:45:40.:45:43.

population, and the strain that will put on neighbouring countries,

:45:43.:45:47.

we haven't seen anything like this in that region for quite some time?

:45:47.:45:52.

Certainly in that region, this is quite an operation. What we are

:45:52.:45:56.

seeing is Syrian displacement, inside the country, there could be

:45:56.:46:04.

as many as one million to 11.5 million Syrian citizens who have --

:46:04.:46:09.

1.5 million Syrian citizens who have fled their homes and crossed

:46:09.:46:11.

border, they are difficult to reach, they are staying with people they

:46:11.:46:16.

know or family or relatives, but the supplies will fast run out,

:46:16.:46:19.

this is becoming an increasingly desperate situation. Every day, at

:46:20.:46:24.

least 1,000 people are crossing international borders to seek

:46:24.:46:34.

shelter and safety in other countries. Just a quick look at the

:46:34.:46:42.

front pages. The Telegraph has the morally wrong act of paying

:46:42.:46:52.
:46:52.:47:11.

That's all from us tonight. We will be back with the special report on

:47:12.:47:21.
:47:22.:47:38.

female genital mutilation tomorrow, female genital mutilation tomorrow,

:47:38.:47:48.
:47:48.:47:52.

good night. Sizzling day it was across southern

:47:52.:47:55.

parts of the UK. Different further north, some cloud and outbreak of

:47:55.:47:59.

rain. That is the story again as we go through Tuesday, with the north-

:47:59.:48:02.

south divide, outbreaks of rain for Northern Ireland, Scotland, the far

:48:02.:48:06.

north of England. Further south, with the clear blue skies, the

:48:06.:48:11.

light winds and sunshine, temperatures again will sore. By

:48:11.:48:15.

mid-afternoon we are looking -- soar, by mid-afternoon we are

:48:15.:48:20.

looking for high temperatures. In the beaches there will be cooling

:48:20.:48:24.

sea breezes, temperatures there could be several degrees lower.

:48:24.:48:28.

Pleasant enough. A nice day for most of Wales, away from the far

:48:28.:48:35.

North West. Where there will be cloud and heavy rain for a time

:48:35.:48:38.

across parts of Northern Ireland. Particularly down in Armagh. Dry

:48:38.:48:41.

towards the north coast, the north western half of Scotland

:48:41.:48:48.

brightening up nicely, further south further outbreaks of rain.

:48:48.:48:53.

Some dry weather, esently, a little cloud around -- eventually, a

:48:53.:48:56.

little cloud around. The heat continuing through Wednesday,

:48:56.:48:59.

across many southern areas, temperatures nudging 30 degrees in

:48:59.:49:03.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS