Browse content similar to 24/07/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Tonight, is Britain becoming the European capital for female genital | :00:13. | :00:16. | |
mutilation. It has been illegal here for decades, but there has | :00:16. | :00:21. | |
never been a single prosecution. In a Newsnight investigation, we | :00:21. | :00:25. | |
show how in France, while the authorities take a very tough line | :00:25. | :00:29. | |
on those who do the cutting. Doctors offer medical aid to the | :00:29. | :00:33. | |
victims. The French campaign against female | :00:33. | :00:35. | |
genital mutilation is thorough and long-term. If a child slips through | :00:35. | :00:41. | |
the net, or if a woman immigrant arrives in the country who has been | :00:41. | :00:45. | |
mutilated, reconstructive surgery is at hand. Tonight activists tell | :00:45. | :00:50. | |
us parents are coming to this country instead. People from other | :00:50. | :00:54. | |
European countries, they will go to the UK and circumcise their | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
daughters there. We will ask why a blind eye is being turned to the | :00:58. | :01:05. | |
horrific multlation of young women here, with the Home Office minister, | :01:05. | :01:12. | |
Lynne Featherstone, and a MoDp who went under as a child, and a | :01:12. | :01:16. | |
representative of the Somali children. How do the children of | :01:16. | :01:18. | |
the affected communities feel about this tradition. We will ask some of | :01:18. | :01:23. | |
the young people who helped us with our investigation. | :01:23. | :01:28. | |
Also tonight, Rebekah Brooks, Andy Coulson and others are charged with | :01:28. | :01:31. | |
phone hacking. Anybody who knows me or has worked with me, knows that I | :01:31. | :01:34. | |
wouldn't, or didn't do anything to damage the Milly Dowler | :01:34. | :01:42. | |
investigation. Good evening, if it was girls with | :01:43. | :01:46. | |
blonde hair and blue eyes being cut, what would the Government do, that | :01:46. | :01:51. | |
is a question a student from Bristol wants to ask David Cameron. | :01:51. | :01:55. | |
Who question assumes it is racism behind the fact that despite female | :01:55. | :01:59. | |
gentital mutilation being illegal in Britain since 1985, there have | :01:59. | :02:03. | |
been no prosecutions, and no shortage of stories about it | :02:03. | :02:05. | |
happening here. Tonight we will explore why girls in the UK are | :02:05. | :02:08. | |
having their genitals cut, and what the Government can and should do | :02:08. | :02:16. | |
about it. Sue Lloyd Roberts has been | :02:16. | :02:18. | |
investigating female gentital mutilation from around the world. | :02:18. | :02:23. | |
Her shocking report from Egypt earlier in the year showed how | :02:23. | :02:27. | |
women there have been mutilated, even though it was banned. Some | :02:27. | :02:29. | |
estimates suggest more than 20 though young girls are at risk in | :02:29. | :02:34. | |
the UK each year. Tonight we look at the tough stance taken in France, | :02:34. | :02:39. | |
where around 100 parents and practitioners have been prosecuted | :02:39. | :02:42. | |
for FGM, we hear from activist who is say parents are travelling to | :02:42. | :02:47. | |
the UK specifically to get their daughters cut here. First, here is | :02:47. | :02:57. | |
:02:57. | :03:05. | ||
Sue Lloyd Roberts, her report Paris is a city which most ofs us | :03:05. | :03:14. | |
associate with romance, love and sexual adventure. But for many of | :03:14. | :03:16. | |
the country's African immigrant women, a cruel mutilation, carried | :03:16. | :03:21. | |
out in the name of tradition, when they were children, has left them | :03:21. | :03:30. | |
insensitive to such attractions. TRANSLATION: I realised things were | :03:30. | :03:35. | |
not right with my sexuality, with my partner, and it was to do with | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
the cutting. Fatou had already been mutilated when she came to Paris | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
from the Ivory Coast as a child. Her clitoris had been removed, | :03:43. | :03:49. | |
affecting her sex life, and the vaginal area sewn together, causing | :03:49. | :03:54. | |
severe complication when she gave birth to her son. TRANSLATION: | :03:54. | :03:59. | |
want to say to the people who do this to us that it can ruin your | :03:59. | :04:03. | |
life, your happiness. It damages you psychologically, physically and | :04:03. | :04:13. | |
:04:13. | :04:25. | ||
sexually. Yasmin was born and mutilated in Paris. TRANSLATION: | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
happened when I was very little. I was two or three years old in the | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
apartment where I lived with my parents. I can't tell you how it | :04:32. | :04:37. | |
was done, because I can't remember. But I can tell you one thing, I | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
still wake up screaming with the same nightmare, of a bath tub | :04:41. | :04:50. | |
filled with blood. It is possible that Yasmin might | :04:50. | :04:59. | |
have been mutilated by Hawa, working as a practiceer in of FGM | :04:59. | :05:06. | |
at the time. Does she know -- practitioner of FGM, does she know | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
how many she cut? TRANSLATION: could I know, I'm not like the | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
French and you, I don't write everything down. I started cutting | :05:14. | :05:20. | |
because in Mali my grandmother did it, but she was ill, I was told to | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
cut my niece, and then I continued here. I have seen a lot of girls | :05:23. | :05:28. | |
cut here, many died. Even here, in this building, I have seen girls | :05:28. | :05:34. | |
who got ill and lost a lot of blood. Now I discourage people from doing | :05:34. | :05:41. | |
it. After years of practising her trade, the neighbours finally | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
complained about the screaming that came from her flat, and called the | :05:45. | :05:55. | |
:05:55. | :06:03. | ||
police. In a trial which gripped the country, 13 years ago. Hawa was | :06:03. | :06:08. | |
charged on 48 counts of cutting and sent to prison. In all, there have | :06:08. | :06:13. | |
been some 100 such convictions in France. TRANSLATION: It is OK what | :06:13. | :06:23. | |
:06:23. | :06:38. | ||
they did to me, they had to send me to prison, they did their job. | :06:38. | :06:42. | |
bears surprisingly little rancour after several years in jail, and | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
was friendly with the lawyer who acted for the children in her trial, | :06:46. | :06:54. | |
how come they are friends? TRANSLATION: The reason I trusted | :06:54. | :07:03. | |
her is that she told the truth, and I like that. The law is the same | :07:03. | :07:08. | |
for everybody. When a black child is hurt, it is exactly the same as | :07:08. | :07:13. | |
if a white child is hurt, so the law, I wanted the law to be | :07:13. | :07:19. | |
enforced, in order to protect children. They now campaign against | :07:19. | :07:27. | |
FGM together. The lawyer believes that trials have helped, fewer | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
cases are now coming to court. She dispayers that across the channel | :07:31. | :07:37. | |
no-one has ever been -- despairs that across the channel no-one has | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
been prosecuted. In Great Britain I heard that no-one had the guts to | :07:41. | :07:48. | |
report that a little girl in that family, or that family has been cut. | :07:48. | :07:54. | |
Either in Great Britain or either during holidays abroad. Why? That's | :07:54. | :08:04. | |
:08:04. | :08:08. | ||
the wonder. The French believe in total asimulation for their | :08:08. | :08:15. | |
immigrants, who come mainly from Franco Africa, Senegal, Mali and | :08:15. | :08:21. | |
the Ivory Coast. The French scoff at what they call "British cultural | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
sensitivites". We have seen bans here on headscarves, burkas, forced | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
marriage and female genital mutilation, of all, they say the | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
last is most serious, French society simply will not accept the | :08:35. | :08:39. | |
mutilation of children. All French mothers are expected to attend | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
mother and child clinics for regular check-ups until the child | :08:42. | :08:47. | |
is six years old. Where doctors have no inhibition about examining | :08:47. | :08:56. | |
a girl's genitalia. TRANSLATION: After six years old, when we can no | :08:56. | :09:01. | |
longer monitor girls here, we liaise with the school health | :09:01. | :09:03. | |
inspector, who visit schools regularly, so they can check on | :09:03. | :09:13. | |
:09:13. | :09:14. | ||
girls from families considered most at risk. If we find a young woman | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
who has been mutilated, we offer her medical and psychological | :09:18. | :09:28. | |
:09:28. | :09:29. | ||
support, and also surgery, if she wants. I will reconstruct the | :09:29. | :09:34. | |
clitoris, the gland of the clitoris and put it in place, it takes | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
approximately half an hour. This doctor operates on about 50 women a | :09:38. | :09:43. | |
month. Women come from all over the world, including from the UK, | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
though the majority are French immigrants. For them he operates | :09:46. | :09:56. | |
:09:56. | :09:56. | ||
for free, the state pays the cost. So, we are able to restore a normal | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
living clitoris. Although the visible clitoris was cut from the | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
women as a child, part of it remains in the body. The doctor can | :10:03. | :10:09. | |
bring that to the surface. I will be able to restore the labia, the | :10:09. | :10:14. | |
upper part of it, it is very important for intercourse to have a | :10:14. | :10:19. | |
normal sexuality, and it is also very important for normal | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
conditions of livery. It is not quite normal, but it is a good | :10:23. | :10:29. | |
restoration. Fatou had the operation a few | :10:29. | :10:37. | |
months ago. TRANSLATION: I feel a complete person, at last, after my | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
operation. Now I need gradually to get to know my sexuality. This is | :10:42. | :10:51. | |
:10:52. | :11:06. | ||
what I'm doing now, and it's going The French approach to FGM is | :11:06. | :11:16. | |
nothing if not thorough, in contrast to the UK. The director of | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
an organisation that fights FGM here told me how she was tipped off | :11:19. | :11:25. | |
by a family member of an ethnic community, who told her that two | :11:25. | :11:35. | |
:11:35. | :11:37. | ||
little girls were at risk of being taken to London. Someone of this | :11:37. | :11:41. | |
community called our organisations to say the family have train | :11:42. | :11:51. | |
tickets to take the Eurostar to go to London, two girls will go in a | :11:51. | :11:57. | |
way to undergo FGM. We received the information on the Friday, and | :11:57. | :12:02. | |
decided to put the girl on the train on Saturday, so it was a | :12:02. | :12:08. | |
necessity to be very, very quick to do something. Why is London a | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
preferred destination for your immigrant communities? In England | :12:12. | :12:17. | |
you are very respectful about traditions of every community who | :12:17. | :12:23. | |
lives in your country. In our country it is totally different, | :12:23. | :12:29. | |
because when migrants arrive in France, they are having the | :12:29. | :12:34. | |
necessity to integrate into our law, our traditions our everything like | :12:34. | :12:43. | |
that. But it is hard to see how the French approach, such as routinely | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
examining the sexual organs of little girls, could transfer easily | :12:47. | :12:56. | |
to the UK. It is generally agreed that we need to toughen up. But | :12:56. | :13:06. | |
:13:06. | :13:11. | ||
more along the lines taken by The French argue that their "zero | :13:11. | :13:15. | |
tolerance" approach towards FGM is working. But many would say it is | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
too extreme. The British Government favour the Dutch model, which many | :13:19. | :13:25. | |
would claim it is more respectful towards the ethnic communities. The | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
difference in the Dutch approach, explains Zara, a spokesperson for | :13:29. | :13:34. | |
the Somalis here, is that the Government consults with the ethnic | :13:34. | :13:39. | |
communities. Routine examination of children was rejected, but the | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
community asked for help to stop the many mutilations which take | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
place, when a child goes with her parents back to their country of | :13:46. | :13:52. | |
origin for a holiday. We have something in our hand, because the | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
pressure from the family back home is very high. They now have these | :13:56. | :14:00. | |
travel documents, which parents who don't want to mutilate their | :14:00. | :14:05. | |
daughters can take with them. is a document which is signed by | :14:05. | :14:14. | |
the minister of health, the minister and it is a Government | :14:14. | :14:19. | |
document, and it shows them we are helping our families back home | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
financially, no-one wants their children to go to prison. | :14:23. | :14:29. | |
The documents are helping, she says, along with anti-FGM publicity. But | :14:29. | :14:34. | |
many parents who still believe in FGM are moving to Britain. More | :14:34. | :14:38. | |
than 10,000 Somalis move to the UK in the last few years, because | :14:38. | :14:44. | |
there is no information, there is no campaign. Although FGM is not | :14:44. | :14:49. | |
legal in the UK, but still the people are doing it underground. So | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
even so many people from other European countries they are going | :14:53. | :15:03. | |
:15:03. | :15:04. | ||
to the UK and they are circumcising their daughters there. | :15:04. | :15:07. | |
Activists in Holland and France claim that parents who want to | :15:07. | :15:17. | |
:15:17. | :15:18. | ||
mutilate their daughters are coming to the UK. They ask that we | :15:18. | :15:21. | |
urgently reinforce the message against FGM on our side of the | :15:21. | :15:28. | |
channel. Today a petition was presented to | :15:28. | :15:31. | |
the Home Office Minister, Lynne Featherstone, signed by over 70,000 | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
people, calling on the Government to find and prosecute those | :15:35. | :15:38. | |
responsible for mutilating women and girls in the UK. She joins us | :15:39. | :15:44. | |
now. Along with the former model and human rights campaigner, Waris | :15:44. | :15:48. | |
Dirie, Baroness Ruth Rendell, the French lawyer, Weil-Curiel cushion | :15:48. | :15:52. | |
and Omer Ahmed from the Council of Somali Organisations. Also here are | :15:52. | :15:57. | |
Dr Comfort Momoh, the UK expert on FGM, and an audience of students | :15:57. | :16:02. | |
involved with the charity Integrate Bristol, which campaigns to prevent | :16:02. | :16:07. | |
FGM in the UK. You had this done when you were five years old, I | :16:07. | :16:17. | |
:16:17. | :16:18. | ||
just wondered what affect that has had on you? What affect? I'm not | :16:18. | :16:23. | |
quite understanding what affect it changes your life. Did it? | :16:23. | :16:29. | |
changes your life forever from that moment on. And nothing quite seemed | :16:29. | :16:34. | |
the same. Like that little girl just said, physically, mentally, | :16:34. | :16:41. | |
sexually, spiritually you are bankrupt. You just, you know, not | :16:42. | :16:46. | |
only that, there are a lot of complication and sickness comes | :16:46. | :16:51. | |
with it. You have health problems? All the way through, yes. Where was | :16:51. | :16:56. | |
the pressure to do it? You were a little girl, was it a family thing? | :16:56. | :17:05. | |
Yes, it was right in my mother's lap, unfortunately. Like you will | :17:05. | :17:10. | |
hear it, a million times, it was just a normal thing for these | :17:10. | :17:16. | |
people who practice it, these families. You, as a child, trust in | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
your own parents, thinking whatever they do they are doing it right, or | :17:20. | :17:24. | |
they are doing good, you don't really know what is going on. | :17:24. | :17:26. | |
have heard some people say, my mother did it because she really | :17:26. | :17:30. | |
loved me, and she thought it was a good thing, and my grandmother had | :17:30. | :17:37. | |
it, and my great-grand mother s that true? It is a true fact, sad | :17:37. | :17:43. | |
to say, it is. You can say, I ask you this, I can tell you this, that | :17:43. | :17:50. | |
I have a little daughter that I adopted from Somali that I wanted | :17:50. | :17:54. | |
to save from this mutilation two years ago. Two days ago I asked her | :17:54. | :17:59. | |
how she feels about this, I explained it for two years I teach | :17:59. | :18:04. | |
her, she looked at me and said I would have done it without no fight, | :18:04. | :18:11. | |
I would have had to accept it. So that's what it is for the child. | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
it the women within the Somali community demanding this rather | :18:14. | :18:19. | |
than the men, is there pressure from men to do it? Fathers? | :18:19. | :18:23. | |
Historically it would have been some historical support for that | :18:23. | :18:28. | |
within the male community. But in the UK certainly not. This is | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
almost entirely driven by women, there isn't demand, it is not | :18:32. | :18:38. | |
supported by the male population. It is, in fact, always condemned, | :18:38. | :18:43. | |
it is condemned in the mosques. There is no Koranic justification | :18:43. | :18:47. | |
for it, it is not a Muslim thing? It is a cultural practice, I think | :18:47. | :18:53. | |
Imams have been on TV, and in posks, and have stressed that point -- | :18:53. | :18:57. | |
mosques and stressed that point. There is now theological | :18:58. | :19:01. | |
justification. It is a cultural thing in the Somali community, even | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
in the UK, even though you say it is completely abhorrent to you? | :19:05. | :19:10. | |
only is it that, it is important to get it into context, it is | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
extremely minute proportion of the Somali community that may still | :19:13. | :19:17. | |
practice this. How do you know that, that is certainly not we are | :19:18. | :19:23. | |
hearing. We will go to the figures in a empt mo, how do you know it is | :19:23. | :19:30. | |
a minute proportion, people -- in a moment, how do you know it is a mew | :19:30. | :19:33. | |
newt proportion? 20 years ago it was much more prevalent, I'm trying | :19:33. | :19:39. | |
to get across that over a period of time, through education, that has | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
actually reduced, the prevalence of it has reduced significantly. You | :19:42. | :19:47. | |
know I wouldn't say how do I know, from being in the community, my | :19:47. | :19:51. | |
contacts within the community, but also contacts in the health service | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
suggests the prevalence is reducing significantly. I come to Dr Comfort | :19:55. | :20:01. | |
Momoh, you treat people after this has happened, I wonder what the | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
health consequences were, sort of things you see? We see lots of | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
women with complication, immediate complication such as heamorrhage | :20:10. | :20:15. | |
that occurs, excessive bleeding. What we see with the pregnant women | :20:15. | :20:19. | |
that we see, they present with infertility problems, which is | :20:19. | :20:26. | |
related to infection over a period of time. They have inclusions cysts, | :20:26. | :20:33. | |
or they have recurring urinry tract infection, as well as vaginal | :20:34. | :20:36. | |
infection, period pain. And when they get married, to achieve | :20:37. | :20:41. | |
penetration will take a long time, and they have the emotional and the | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
psychological problems. There is physical, emotional, psychological, | :20:46. | :20:49. | |
sexual, basically every problem. Yes. I suppose you can't put a | :20:49. | :20:55. | |
figure on it, do you see more of it, a lot of it? I see more. I disagree | :20:55. | :21:01. | |
with Omarn the sense that, we still -- Omar, in the sense that we still | :21:02. | :21:05. | |
see a significant number of women and girls here in the UK. At my | :21:05. | :21:11. | |
clinic we see about 400 women and girls with FGM-related problems. To | :21:11. | :21:18. | |
me this is significant, and that's why we need to have a proper data, | :21:18. | :21:22. | |
we need more research in terms of getting proper figures here in the | :21:22. | :21:27. | |
UK. Let me ask you those of you who have helped us so much with the | :21:27. | :21:32. | |
research here. I wonder what pressure you feel, some young women | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
in your community feel from parents and others to have this down, you | :21:36. | :21:39. | |
were very outspoken yesterday, do you hear about a lot of pressure to | :21:40. | :21:45. | |
have this done? Most girls that are born here will think whatever my | :21:45. | :21:50. | |
parents say is right. But I guess most of us have grown up with this | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
mentality now where we're thinking no we are hafrpling our own bodies, | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
and -- harming our own bodies and we shouldn't be doing. That now | :21:58. | :22:01. | |
parents are more understanding. They don't have so much pressure | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
under them compared to going back to Africa, for example, they | :22:05. | :22:08. | |
probably feel so much more pressure that they have to mutilate their | :22:08. | :22:12. | |
girls. Here they have far more freedom. They feel that here they | :22:12. | :22:16. | |
can protect their girls easier. But, saying that, not enough is being | :22:16. | :22:20. | |
done to protect these girls. The Government has no statistics. Omar | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
over there says there is a minority that are practising it, and Comfort | :22:24. | :22:28. | |
Momoh says she sees an increasing number of girls coming into her | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
clinics. But there are no statistics, this is where the NHS | :22:32. | :22:38. | |
is going wrong in this country. Anybody else want to come in on | :22:38. | :22:44. | |
that? Do you hear a lot about it, do people talk about it a lot more? | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
If you have FGM done you wouldn't really want to talk about it, you | :22:47. | :22:52. | |
feel it is embarrassing. You are not normal. You think like oh that | :22:52. | :22:56. | |
person it going to think I'm not normal any more. You keep it to | :22:56. | :22:58. | |
yourself, you don't tell anyone about it. The doctors, they might | :22:58. | :23:05. | |
not even know about it. They look for FGM type 3, they don't think | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
type 1 is that important. What is that, more serious complication | :23:10. | :23:16. | |
with type 3? Type 3 is where they get all of it done, type 1 is more | :23:16. | :23:26. | |
common, and type 2 as well. Anybody else there? They don't really talk | :23:26. | :23:30. | |
about it, especially when they have it done, they are scared that the | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
doctors, or whoever they talk to about it, they don't really know | :23:33. | :23:37. | |
what they are doing, they are losing faith in the NHS, or if they | :23:37. | :23:41. | |
talk to a teacher, like if they confide in a teacher, they are | :23:41. | :23:44. | |
losing confidence in the teacher, because they don't know what they | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
are talking about. If the people were educated and know what types | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
of FGM there are, and what it is, and the complication and | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
implications of having it done are, then they are more likely to come | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
out and speak out about having the procedure done. But if people don't | :23:58. | :24:01. | |
know about it, no-one is going to talk about it, they will be like, | :24:01. | :24:08. | |
OK, this has happened to me, no-one else has had it done. | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
Lynne Featherstone, why are there no statistics, why does nobody | :24:12. | :24:17. | |
collect figures on this? Firstly, let me say, this is an abhorrent | :24:17. | :24:20. | |
practice, it is an abusive practice. While you say we turn a blind eye, | :24:20. | :24:24. | |
actually that is not the truth. As soon as we came into Government we | :24:24. | :24:27. | |
published an action plan a call to end violence against women and | :24:27. | :24:32. | |
girls, which includes a whole section on FGM, it is a huge issue. | :24:32. | :24:37. | |
But you don't know how big? don't know how big, but we are | :24:37. | :24:41. | |
looking at how we may begin to get statistics. Data from the National | :24:41. | :24:46. | |
Health Service has always been an issue in the sense that if people | :24:46. | :24:49. | |
come there is an issue about if they think they are going to be | :24:49. | :24:52. | |
reported, or if anything will be done, they may not present when | :24:52. | :24:56. | |
they have complication. It is cultural sensitivites as we heard | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
from some of our French interviewees? The health service | :25:00. | :25:04. | |
has always said treat someone first, it is the same as if you are | :25:04. | :25:10. | |
attacked with a knife. If it is a case of paedophilia, you have a | :25:10. | :25:14. | |
responsibility to the charge, this is abuse? It is safeguarding issue. | :25:14. | :25:17. | |
They report paedophilia, but not this? They should report it, and | :25:17. | :25:22. | |
the police should take it seriously, they have a duty of safeguarding, | :25:22. | :25:26. | |
local councils have a duty. There has not been a single prosecution? | :25:26. | :25:29. | |
Indeed, that is over 25 years, we have been in Government two years, | :25:29. | :25:32. | |
and we are taking action. We are moving forward. When you say there | :25:32. | :25:35. | |
is not a single prosecution, we have heard from the girls and from | :25:35. | :25:40. | |
others on the film, how difficult it is to get people to come forward. | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
It would help if the authorities, if they feel they are taken | :25:44. | :25:47. | |
seriously, if there isn't this cultural sensitivity and you do | :25:47. | :25:50. | |
something about it? I am doing something about it T I agree, I | :25:50. | :25:54. | |
think there has been, in general, in the past, an overcautious | :25:54. | :25:58. | |
approach to reporting, and I'm holding a Round Table actually with | :25:58. | :26:01. | |
the police and the health authorities in October to discuss | :26:01. | :26:07. | |
this very part of this issue. have campaigned on this for a long | :26:07. | :26:11. | |
time, Ruth Rendell, I wonder how big a problem you think it is now, | :26:11. | :26:15. | |
and why we don't have these statistics. We have statistics on | :26:15. | :26:21. | |
all kinds of other things? I have campaigned for about 12 years. I | :26:21. | :26:25. | |
have made many speeches in the House of Lords, instituted many | :26:25. | :26:29. | |
debates, asked questions, I have asked the Government to set up a | :26:29. | :26:35. | |
national register, to record everybody who has seen to have FGM, | :26:35. | :26:39. | |
so it can be noted. I have suggested to the them that all | :26:39. | :26:47. | |
teachers should undergo a course so that they could spot children who, | :26:47. | :26:51. | |
they could detect a childlikely to be on a holiday at this time of | :26:51. | :26:55. | |
year, to be taken out of this country, to the Horn of Africa, on | :26:55. | :27:04. | |
a kould holiday. To stop T I have - - called holiday. To stop it. I | :27:04. | :27:08. | |
have alerted the Government to how bad it is. They don't seem to be | :27:08. | :27:12. | |
listening, Lynne Featherstone says they are listening now? I don't | :27:12. | :27:17. | |
think they have listened. Just a second. Why haven't they been | :27:17. | :27:21. | |
listening, and in what way? I wish I knew, I have asked them and even | :27:21. | :27:25. | |
had promises of setting up various committees and so on to look into | :27:25. | :27:30. | |
it. In all that time I have never had any response of that kind. | :27:30. | :27:34. | |
minister is here? In terms, I think you are absolutely right, the | :27:34. | :27:37. | |
summer holiday are a very dangerous time, and last year the police were | :27:37. | :27:41. | |
at the airports intervening with families with girls going to those | :27:41. | :27:46. | |
countries. I have also, last week, had my officials, in Africa, | :27:46. | :27:50. | |
talking to counsuls from every consular place across Africa to | :27:50. | :27:53. | |
give them the information and leaflets and guidance that is | :27:53. | :27:56. | |
practice, to put it up so people coming for visas will have some | :27:56. | :28:00. | |
information, and know that it is illegal in this country. So we are | :28:00. | :28:05. | |
taking action. What do you think about that? I really don't | :28:05. | :28:10. | |
understand what's going on with the Government. What they plan is, and | :28:10. | :28:15. | |
the truth, the plain truth is they don't give a damn. That is | :28:15. | :28:20. | |
ridiculous. I was there 15 years ago, in the house of parliament, I | :28:20. | :28:26. | |
spoke about this, I wrote a book, there is movies, there is nothing | :28:26. | :28:33. | |
changed. So I don't know what you do. Sorry. I want to talk a little | :28:33. | :28:36. | |
bit about what is happening in France, why is France different, is | :28:36. | :28:39. | |
it just different culturally because this is the way you are, | :28:39. | :28:44. | |
and you are less culturally sensitive to ethnic minorities? | :28:44. | :28:54. | |
:28:54. | :28:54. | ||
Maybe, I feel the channel is really wide now. Why is it different? We | :28:54. | :29:04. | |
are very careful of the health of little children. We have asked | :29:04. | :29:08. | |
doctors to show the parents, the mothers, who come to the family | :29:08. | :29:15. | |
centres, how a little girl is made. How are their sexual parts, and the | :29:15. | :29:19. | |
use that the girl will have for this. They do it naturally for the | :29:19. | :29:23. | |
boys. They check their three pieces, you know, little things. To make | :29:23. | :29:27. | |
sure it is all there. Make sure, every time. Systematically. | :29:27. | :29:31. | |
girls, do you think it is an education problem. You also have a | :29:31. | :29:36. | |
big stick, people can go to prison as we have seen for this, and they | :29:36. | :29:42. | |
do? It is the doctor's duty to inform the authority, the | :29:42. | :29:47. | |
prosecutor, if he notices that the child has been hurt, in any way, | :29:47. | :29:54. | |
beaten black and blue, broken arm, sexually abused, sexually mutilated. | :29:54. | :29:58. | |
Do parents ever object and say no, we don't want our children to be | :29:58. | :30:05. | |
exampled? Of course not. They couldn't, it is for the child's | :30:05. | :30:08. | |
sake. Lynne Featherstone can we do that here? I don't think that would | :30:08. | :30:14. | |
be acceptable here, I think it is incredibly intrusive. I would not | :30:14. | :30:18. | |
want my daughter examined annually before the age of six, I wouldn't | :30:18. | :30:22. | |
want her examined every time she came back from abroad, her | :30:22. | :30:26. | |
genitalia to be examined. However, we are following, as we saw in the | :30:26. | :30:29. | |
film, we are following the Dutch route with an equivalent to the | :30:29. | :30:33. | |
Dutch health passport, which we will be trialing later this year, | :30:33. | :30:36. | |
which actually does pretty much what you saw in the film, and | :30:36. | :30:41. | |
actually gives them a piece of paper when they go to countries to | :30:41. | :30:45. | |
be mutilated, which says, this is illegal, you are breaking the law, | :30:45. | :30:49. | |
even if you it is done in another country. It is happening here, that | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
is part of the problem? I was interested in your film, I haven't | :30:53. | :30:56. | |
heard about this tourism for mutilation before your film tonight. | :30:56. | :31:01. | |
I would very much like anyone who knows people coming to this country, | :31:01. | :31:06. | |
for goodness sake, inform us, we don't have this information. | :31:06. | :31:10. | |
that point about explanations and, you know, you said about who do you | :31:10. | :31:14. | |
tell, do you talk to a teacher and so on. Would you or anybody you | :31:14. | :31:17. | |
know object to those kinds of things, would it be OK if it was | :31:17. | :31:21. | |
done at school, with a doctor, like the one sitting next to you, would | :31:21. | :31:24. | |
you object? I don't understand why anyone would object. When you are | :31:24. | :31:28. | |
older you are going to be looked at any way, you will have the smear | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
test done. What's the problem having it done when you are younger, | :31:31. | :31:34. | |
just being looked at. It is not like you are being sexually abused | :31:34. | :31:38. | |
or anything. You are making sure everything is fine and there is no | :31:38. | :31:41. | |
complication, and there is nothing wrong with you. It is helping you | :31:41. | :31:45. | |
in the long run, I don't understand why there is an objection to having | :31:45. | :31:50. | |
someone examine you, especially when it is a qualified doctor. | :31:50. | :31:53. | |
Providing it is a qualified doctor. What do you think about it? I think | :31:54. | :31:58. | |
it is, you know, when you are examining a child, you are thinking | :31:58. | :32:02. | |
about their safety, no the fact that this is too culturally | :32:02. | :32:06. | |
sensitive, this is a child's life at risk. About the prosecutions, | :32:06. | :32:08. | |
the Sunday Times did a quick investigation and they quickly | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
found about four people who are willing to mutilate girls, police | :32:13. | :32:16. | |
officers could have done that very easily, the Government could have | :32:16. | :32:20. | |
helped them, they haven't. Do you accept, you are putting everything | :32:20. | :32:24. | |
on the Government, I will come back to the minister in a second, there | :32:24. | :32:27. | |
is obviously a responsibility in the community, it might demand some | :32:27. | :32:31. | |
girls, your age or younger, having to testify about their parents, | :32:31. | :32:35. | |
about somebody who does this to them, about their grandparents, | :32:35. | :32:38. | |
that is really difficult? The thing is the Government are not helping | :32:38. | :32:43. | |
these girls, the community are the perpetrators, with any other form | :32:43. | :32:46. | |
of abuse, the community wouldn't be asked to deal with the subject. | :32:46. | :32:52. | |
When it comes to FGM the community have to deal with it, that is wrong. | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
This is abuse. It is important to recognise when the doctor, for | :32:55. | :32:59. | |
example, says we are picking up increasing numbers of women coming | :32:59. | :33:05. | |
to clinics, that is actually a good thing. That shows that the NHS is | :33:05. | :33:10. | |
working and picking these issues up. It also tells you something about | :33:10. | :33:14. | |
the statistics. You ask where are the statistics coming from, what | :33:14. | :33:19. | |
you are actually seeing is today the younger generation, those who | :33:19. | :33:25. | |
are being, have undergone FGM, back in Somalia, who are now reaching | :33:25. | :33:29. | |
their 20s and 30s, now facing these complication, who are now | :33:30. | :33:32. | |
increasingly turning to the NHS. I think some of the points that Lynn | :33:32. | :33:35. | |
made about the work the Government is doing. The Government has done a | :33:35. | :33:40. | |
lot of work, I think probably testament to the efforts of the | :33:41. | :33:45. | |
Baroness. But the CPS have very rigorous guidelines to their | :33:45. | :33:52. | |
prosecutors in terms of spotting FGM and how to tackle it. They are | :33:52. | :33:56. | |
so rigorous they haven't tackled a single one. The French prosecutors | :33:57. | :34:01. | |
who have rigorous guidelines managed to spot 100. With respect | :34:01. | :34:07. | |
if we take the approach, the idea that you could, and I'm totally | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
with Lynn on this h the idea that you would some how forcibly, there | :34:11. | :34:16. | |
is no issue of choice here, take children randomly, whom you are | :34:16. | :34:21. | |
identifying by their race, we will not say that, we will say we will | :34:21. | :34:26. | |
identify them by virtue of their risk factors. We are talk about by | :34:26. | :34:31. | |
their race. It is not forcible? at all. People can object if they | :34:31. | :34:36. | |
want? They correction but why should they? The doctor is there to | :34:36. | :34:41. | |
take care of the child. Do you accept there is a degree of | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
profiling, in other words, you are not saying it to Polish immigrants | :34:44. | :34:48. | |
or Chinese immigrants, you are looking at certain ethnic groups? | :34:48. | :34:53. | |
Not at all, we are asking the doctors to examine any child, they | :34:53. | :35:00. | |
all deserve the same service. has to be every child. Of course. | :35:00. | :35:04. | |
There aren't going to be so many going to that particular part of | :35:04. | :35:10. | |
the world, under a certain age. But obviously you cannot select | :35:10. | :35:13. | |
children according to race. That can't be, but it can be children, | :35:13. | :35:17. | |
as you were saying, Chinese, whatever it is, all children. | :35:17. | :35:20. | |
minister, you heard some of the girls saying, it is their personal | :35:20. | :35:25. | |
views, they wouldn't have a problem with it, they don't see why anybody | :35:25. | :35:29. | |
would. The bigger issue in the prosecution sense, it is very, very | :35:29. | :35:32. | |
difficult to get girls to come forward and give evidence. There | :35:32. | :35:35. | |
has been training for prosecutors, we are actually having a year's | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
worth of referrals that didn't get to court analysed to see why they | :35:39. | :35:42. | |
have fallen down. People used to say this about rape, you know, | :35:42. | :35:45. | |
there was a difficulty about getting people to come forward. | :35:45. | :35:48. | |
What's the difficulty. It is a matter for the authorities? As I | :35:48. | :35:51. | |
said, I'm holding this meeting in October, with police and health | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
authorities, to see how we can move forward on this. But, you know, | :35:55. | :36:00. | |
prosecution, we prosecute rape, and we prosecute theft, and it hasn't | :36:00. | :36:03. | |
stopped rape or theft, unfortunately. This is about, in | :36:03. | :36:09. | |
the end, a huge change, a huge shift. I waent to Ethiopia recently, | :36:09. | :36:14. | |
on -- I went to Ethiopia recently on a mission to tackle violence | :36:14. | :36:19. | |
against women and met with them there tackling FGM, very prevalent | :36:20. | :36:28. | |
in those countries they are using different things to tackle whole | :36:29. | :36:31. | |
communities and it is much more productive. Do you think there is | :36:31. | :36:35. | |
an issue within communities, you are showing us by being here and | :36:35. | :36:40. | |
making the film. I ask, who are you trying to protect, the parents or | :36:40. | :36:42. | |
the kids. Obviously if the parents have something to hide, they will | :36:42. | :36:46. | |
say to you, no, we don't want our child to be examined. You want the | :36:46. | :36:50. | |
child's safety to be first, so you should be thinking about that, not | :36:50. | :37:00. | |
what the parents say. I absolutely agree. This is a child's life here, | :37:00. | :37:04. | |
upsetting the parents, you think be about upsetting the parents, and | :37:04. | :37:07. | |
probably insulting them. If this was any other form of abuse, would | :37:07. | :37:11. | |
you be thinking about upsetting the parents, you would be thinking | :37:11. | :37:14. | |
about the child's life first. you think your generation is | :37:14. | :37:17. | |
different, and you are standing up and saying what you think in a very | :37:17. | :37:20. | |
clear way, this is a cultural practice that we will not see in | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
the future do you think? generation is different, we were | :37:24. | :37:29. | |
educated, they were told, you know, the harmful effects of FGM, some of | :37:30. | :37:32. | |
our great-grand parents or grandparents, they didn't have | :37:32. | :37:35. | |
these opportunities. But schools are still not doing enough to | :37:35. | :37:38. | |
protect these girls. Do you think it is time, though, for British | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
schools, British people, to assert British values. This is clearly | :37:42. | :37:47. | |
unacceptable in this country? Absolutely. We mustn't tip toe | :37:47. | :37:52. | |
around it? There has been far too much sensitivity, we can't tip toe | :37:52. | :37:57. | |
around it. These girls are the hope for the future. I met with | :37:57. | :38:02. | |
Integrate Bristol a few weeks ago, they are fiercesome. They made a | :38:02. | :38:06. | |
film, The Silent Scream, that was your film, truly remarkable. You | :38:06. | :38:09. | |
yourselves said, did you not, that your whole community turned on you | :38:09. | :38:18. | |
for actually having the bravery to speak out. I'm trying to indicate | :38:18. | :38:22. | |
how very difficult it is within the community. Are you encouraged by | :38:22. | :38:25. | |
what you have heard over here? I was with them, I helped them all | :38:25. | :38:32. | |
the way I can. And I will. Yes I'm with them, and what they do is what | :38:32. | :38:37. | |
everybody should do, not just them. Starting with the Government of the | :38:37. | :38:41. | |
place. Thank you very much. Now, the names | :38:41. | :38:45. | |
of Hollywood stars, Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie were read out | :38:45. | :38:48. | |
alongside those from football, Wayne Rooney and Sven-Goran | :38:48. | :38:53. | |
Eriksson, joining them on the list was the murdered schoolgirl of | :38:53. | :38:58. | |
Milly Dowler. The role call, unconnected, was the crime of phone | :38:58. | :39:03. | |
hacking. Eight people, including the former Downing Street | :39:03. | :39:06. | |
communications chief, Andy Coulson, and former newspaper chief, Rebekah | :39:06. | :39:10. | |
Brooks, would be charged in relation to hacking of voicemails. | :39:10. | :39:16. | |
After months of investigations, the dodgy practices of newspapers and | :39:16. | :39:23. | |
their links with political leaders will come to trial. | :39:23. | :39:27. | |
Justice appears in various eulogises, today it came in the | :39:27. | :39:31. | |
form of Alison Levitt of the Crown Prosecution Service. Tremulous in | :39:31. | :39:35. | |
tone, yet certain in their purpose. This was the culmination of 19 | :39:35. | :39:42. | |
months of police investigations. The eight who will be charged are, | :39:43. | :39:51. | |
Rebekah Brooks, Andy Coulson, Stuart Kuttner, Glenn Mulcaire, | :39:51. | :39:55. | |
Greg Miskiw, Ian Edmondson mond, Neville Thurlbeck and James | :39:55. | :40:02. | |
Weatherup. They will face a total of 19 charges in all. | :40:02. | :40:08. | |
Once a private investigator, mull mull, others senior editoral | :40:08. | :40:11. | |
figures at News of the World. All charged with conspiring to hack the | :40:11. | :40:16. | |
phone of more than 600 people, over a period of six years. The alleged | :40:16. | :40:20. | |
victims range from Paul McCartney to Angelina Jolie, John Prescott | :40:20. | :40:25. | |
and David Blunkett, to the murdered Milly Dowler. The ramifications are | :40:25. | :40:30. | |
enormous, with two of those charged, both former editors, having enjoyed | :40:30. | :40:34. | |
close relationships with the Prime Minister. Rebekah Brooks was David | :40:34. | :40:40. | |
Cameron's personal friend, while Andy Coulson was a righthandman. | :40:40. | :40:43. | |
After resigning from the News of the World, Andy Coulson was | :40:43. | :40:47. | |
appointed Mr Cameron's communications director. Like so | :40:47. | :40:51. | |
many others embroiled in this scandal, both Cameron and Coulson | :40:51. | :40:55. | |
have given evidence to the Leveson Inquiry, which, by coincidence, | :40:55. | :40:59. | |
listeneded today. Last month at Leveson, David Cameron was asked | :40:59. | :41:04. | |
why he had employed Andy Coulson. He had left his last job after | :41:04. | :41:06. | |
resigning because of the things that happened. That was, obviously, | :41:06. | :41:13. | |
as I have said in my evidence, I was giving him a second chance. The | :41:13. | :41:17. | |
second reason, it was, there was controversy, is this was a tabloid | :41:17. | :41:22. | |
editor. Leveson also heard from the man who recommended Coulson to | :41:22. | :41:27. | |
Cameron, the Chancellor, George Osborne. I would suggest to you | :41:27. | :41:32. | |
that everything that's happened since, no-one has ever mounted a | :41:32. | :41:35. | |
serious complaint about the way he was, the Director of Communications | :41:35. | :41:39. | |
for the Conservative Party, or subsequently for the Government. | :41:39. | :41:42. | |
This afternoon Andy Coulson emerged from his home to declare his anger | :41:42. | :41:48. | |
at now facing five criminal charges. I'm obviously extremely | :41:48. | :41:54. | |
disappointed by the CPS decision today. I will fight these | :41:54. | :41:56. | |
allegations, when they eventually get to court. But I would like to | :41:56. | :42:00. | |
say one thing today about the Milly Dowler allegations. Anyone who | :42:01. | :42:04. | |
knows me, or who has worked with me, will know that I wouldn't, more | :42:04. | :42:08. | |
importantly, that I didn't, do anything to damage the Milly Dowler | :42:08. | :42:12. | |
investigation. Rebekah Brooks issued a statement saying she was | :42:12. | :42:16. | |
innocent and angry. At Leveson, the Prime Minister had been asked about | :42:16. | :42:21. | |
country suppers with Brooks, and why she had once texted him before | :42:21. | :42:25. | |
a speech, saying "professionally, we're in this together". We were, | :42:25. | :42:29. | |
as she put it, friends, but professionally me as leader of the | :42:29. | :42:33. | |
Conservative Party, her in newspapers, we were going to be | :42:33. | :42:38. | |
pushing the same political agenda. For the Prime Minister, questions | :42:38. | :42:44. | |
over his judgment will continue, while his friend face charges which | :42:44. | :42:50. | |
carry two-year jail terms. Allegra Stratton is here, does this remain | :42:50. | :42:53. | |
slightly awkward for the Prime Minister? It is awkward, it is | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
inconvenient. You have a sunny day, a day with the Olympics approaching, | :42:57. | :43:02. | |
and a day where he had three former prime ministers of all the two | :43:02. | :43:07. | |
different parties in Downing Street, and yet he's reminded of this | :43:07. | :43:09. | |
incredibly uncomfortable problem on his doorstep. It is something that | :43:09. | :43:14. | |
doesn't go away. Today we had an indication from both Rebekah Brooks | :43:14. | :43:18. | |
and Andy Coulson that they intend to fight the charges incredibly | :43:18. | :43:23. | |
fiercesomely. And that sense that it will be long, and keep on going. | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
You have a Prime Minister trying to go into the middle part of this | :43:26. | :43:29. | |
parliament, with some confidence. Now he knows that's going to have a | :43:29. | :43:34. | |
very long trial going on in the background. Does it have the | :43:34. | :43:38. | |
capacity to hurt him, or is it just that kind of irritation factor? | :43:38. | :43:42. | |
Another thing we learned today suggests it does. The Milly Dowler | :43:42. | :43:47. | |
case was the reason why he called for a public inquiry, and the Milly | :43:47. | :43:51. | |
Dowler case has been name checked as a reason why these individuals | :43:51. | :43:55. | |
are being charged. It is the exact link that has now been made, that | :43:55. | :43:58. | |
is the problem. It was the Milly Dowler case that turned this into | :43:58. | :44:02. | |
an issue that people cared about, because it involved normal people, | :44:02. | :44:06. | |
rather than involving celebrities who are, in some ways normal, but | :44:06. | :44:11. | |
in some ways not. Let's have a quick look at tomorrow morning's | :44:11. | :44:17. | |
front pages, the Times has Boris Johnson saying he pays cash for odd | :44:17. | :44:27. | |
:44:27. | :44:28. | ||
Apology for the loss of subtitles for 40 seconds | :44:28. | :45:08. | |
jobs, unlike the Government That's all from Newsnight tonight, | :45:08. | :45:16. | |
we leave you with three-year-old Sophia Dickson from louk borrow, | :45:16. | :45:21. | |
whose wall climbing skills have gained her a place on YouTube, and | :45:21. | :45:25. | |
maybe a place in the Olympics. can do it, I can do it, I can do | :45:25. | :45:35. | |
:45:35. | :45:42. | ||
it! I can do this, I can do it, I can do it! | :45:42. | :45:47. | |
# I want to be a man, man cub # And stroll right into town | :45:47. | :45:53. | |
# And be just like the other men # I'm tired of mugging around | :45:53. | :46:02. | |
Good evening, another hot day in southern areas, with the highest | :46:02. | :46:06. | |
temperature of the year recorded. More sunshine to come through the | :46:06. | :46:09. | |
day on Wednesday, across the southern half of the UK. Our | :46:09. | :46:13. | |
weather front, that has been bringing cloud and rain is going to | :46:13. | :46:17. | |
fizzle away, by Wednesday afternoon we have a good deal of sunshine | :46:17. | :46:20. | |
across parts of northern England. The very small risk of a light | :46:20. | :46:24. | |
shower across the north and Midlands, for most it will be a dry | :46:24. | :46:29. | |
day. We might get to 31 or 32 degrees across the south-east | :46:29. | :46:34. | |
corner. Cooler and fresher around the coast, with sea breezes | :46:34. | :46:38. | |
developing. Moving further inland you will see the heat. Cloud in | :46:39. | :46:43. | |
Wales, but another fine, dry day on Wednesday. For Northern Ireland | :46:43. | :46:47. | |
much brighter, sunshine around, temperatures climbing to the mid- | :46:47. | :46:52. | |
to-high teens, across Scotland, again a good deal of dry, bright | :46:52. | :46:55. | |
weather, cloudier around the Aberdeen coastline. Temperatures in | :46:55. | :47:01. | |
Inverness reaching highs of 18 degrees, 19 in Edinburgh, with well | :47:01. | :47:03. | |
broken cloud giving sunshine. We may start to see the cloud | :47:03. | :47:07. | |
increasing through the day on Thursday. Keeping the sunshine on | :47:07. | :47:09. | |
Bristol, where temperatures on Wednesday and Thursday will reach | :47:09. | :47:14. | |
the high 20, well above average for the time of year. You will see the | :47:14. | :47:17. |