24/07/2012 Newsnight


24/07/2012

The French crackdown on female circumcision - why doesn't the UK follow suit? Plus, big name charges for phone hacking, and the man who polices the Olympics. With Gavin Esler.


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Transcript


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Tonight, is Britain becoming the European capital for female genital

:00:13.:00:16.

mutilation. It has been illegal here for decades, but there has

:00:16.:00:21.

never been a single prosecution. In a Newsnight investigation, we

:00:21.:00:25.

show how in France, while the authorities take a very tough line

:00:25.:00:29.

on those who do the cutting. Doctors offer medical aid to the

:00:29.:00:33.

victims. The French campaign against female

:00:33.:00:35.

genital mutilation is thorough and long-term. If a child slips through

:00:35.:00:41.

the net, or if a woman immigrant arrives in the country who has been

:00:41.:00:45.

mutilated, reconstructive surgery is at hand. Tonight activists tell

:00:45.:00:50.

us parents are coming to this country instead. People from other

:00:50.:00:54.

European countries, they will go to the UK and circumcise their

:00:54.:00:58.

daughters there. We will ask why a blind eye is being turned to the

:00:58.:01:05.

horrific multlation of young women here, with the Home Office minister,

:01:05.:01:12.

Lynne Featherstone, and a MoDp who went under as a child, and a

:01:12.:01:16.

representative of the Somali children. How do the children of

:01:16.:01:18.

the affected communities feel about this tradition. We will ask some of

:01:18.:01:23.

the young people who helped us with our investigation.

:01:23.:01:28.

Also tonight, Rebekah Brooks, Andy Coulson and others are charged with

:01:28.:01:31.

phone hacking. Anybody who knows me or has worked with me, knows that I

:01:31.:01:34.

wouldn't, or didn't do anything to damage the Milly Dowler

:01:34.:01:42.

investigation. Good evening, if it was girls with

:01:43.:01:46.

blonde hair and blue eyes being cut, what would the Government do, that

:01:46.:01:51.

is a question a student from Bristol wants to ask David Cameron.

:01:51.:01:55.

Who question assumes it is racism behind the fact that despite female

:01:55.:01:59.

gentital mutilation being illegal in Britain since 1985, there have

:01:59.:02:03.

been no prosecutions, and no shortage of stories about it

:02:03.:02:05.

happening here. Tonight we will explore why girls in the UK are

:02:05.:02:08.

having their genitals cut, and what the Government can and should do

:02:08.:02:16.

about it. Sue Lloyd Roberts has been

:02:16.:02:18.

investigating female gentital mutilation from around the world.

:02:18.:02:23.

Her shocking report from Egypt earlier in the year showed how

:02:23.:02:27.

women there have been mutilated, even though it was banned. Some

:02:27.:02:29.

estimates suggest more than 20 though young girls are at risk in

:02:29.:02:34.

the UK each year. Tonight we look at the tough stance taken in France,

:02:34.:02:39.

where around 100 parents and practitioners have been prosecuted

:02:39.:02:42.

for FGM, we hear from activist who is say parents are travelling to

:02:42.:02:47.

the UK specifically to get their daughters cut here. First, here is

:02:47.:02:57.
:02:57.:03:05.

Sue Lloyd Roberts, her report Paris is a city which most ofs us

:03:05.:03:14.

associate with romance, love and sexual adventure. But for many of

:03:14.:03:16.

the country's African immigrant women, a cruel mutilation, carried

:03:16.:03:21.

out in the name of tradition, when they were children, has left them

:03:21.:03:30.

insensitive to such attractions. TRANSLATION: I realised things were

:03:30.:03:35.

not right with my sexuality, with my partner, and it was to do with

:03:35.:03:39.

the cutting. Fatou had already been mutilated when she came to Paris

:03:39.:03:43.

from the Ivory Coast as a child. Her clitoris had been removed,

:03:43.:03:49.

affecting her sex life, and the vaginal area sewn together, causing

:03:49.:03:54.

severe complication when she gave birth to her son. TRANSLATION:

:03:54.:03:59.

want to say to the people who do this to us that it can ruin your

:03:59.:04:03.

life, your happiness. It damages you psychologically, physically and

:04:03.:04:13.
:04:13.:04:25.

sexually. Yasmin was born and mutilated in Paris. TRANSLATION:

:04:25.:04:29.

happened when I was very little. I was two or three years old in the

:04:29.:04:32.

apartment where I lived with my parents. I can't tell you how it

:04:32.:04:37.

was done, because I can't remember. But I can tell you one thing, I

:04:37.:04:41.

still wake up screaming with the same nightmare, of a bath tub

:04:41.:04:50.

filled with blood. It is possible that Yasmin might

:04:50.:04:59.

have been mutilated by Hawa, working as a practiceer in of FGM

:04:59.:05:06.

at the time. Does she know -- practitioner of FGM, does she know

:05:06.:05:10.

how many she cut? TRANSLATION: could I know, I'm not like the

:05:10.:05:14.

French and you, I don't write everything down. I started cutting

:05:14.:05:20.

because in Mali my grandmother did it, but she was ill, I was told to

:05:20.:05:23.

cut my niece, and then I continued here. I have seen a lot of girls

:05:23.:05:28.

cut here, many died. Even here, in this building, I have seen girls

:05:28.:05:34.

who got ill and lost a lot of blood. Now I discourage people from doing

:05:34.:05:41.

it. After years of practising her trade, the neighbours finally

:05:41.:05:45.

complained about the screaming that came from her flat, and called the

:05:45.:05:55.
:05:55.:06:03.

police. In a trial which gripped the country, 13 years ago. Hawa was

:06:03.:06:08.

charged on 48 counts of cutting and sent to prison. In all, there have

:06:08.:06:13.

been some 100 such convictions in France. TRANSLATION: It is OK what

:06:13.:06:23.
:06:23.:06:38.

they did to me, they had to send me to prison, they did their job.

:06:38.:06:42.

bears surprisingly little rancour after several years in jail, and

:06:42.:06:46.

was friendly with the lawyer who acted for the children in her trial,

:06:46.:06:54.

how come they are friends? TRANSLATION: The reason I trusted

:06:54.:07:03.

her is that she told the truth, and I like that. The law is the same

:07:03.:07:08.

for everybody. When a black child is hurt, it is exactly the same as

:07:08.:07:13.

if a white child is hurt, so the law, I wanted the law to be

:07:13.:07:19.

enforced, in order to protect children. They now campaign against

:07:19.:07:27.

FGM together. The lawyer believes that trials have helped, fewer

:07:27.:07:30.

cases are now coming to court. She dispayers that across the channel

:07:31.:07:37.

no-one has ever been -- despairs that across the channel no-one has

:07:37.:07:41.

been prosecuted. In Great Britain I heard that no-one had the guts to

:07:41.:07:48.

report that a little girl in that family, or that family has been cut.

:07:48.:07:54.

Either in Great Britain or either during holidays abroad. Why? That's

:07:54.:08:04.
:08:04.:08:08.

the wonder. The French believe in total asimulation for their

:08:08.:08:15.

immigrants, who come mainly from Franco Africa, Senegal, Mali and

:08:15.:08:21.

the Ivory Coast. The French scoff at what they call "British cultural

:08:22.:08:26.

sensitivites". We have seen bans here on headscarves, burkas, forced

:08:26.:08:30.

marriage and female genital mutilation, of all, they say the

:08:31.:08:35.

last is most serious, French society simply will not accept the

:08:35.:08:39.

mutilation of children. All French mothers are expected to attend

:08:39.:08:42.

mother and child clinics for regular check-ups until the child

:08:42.:08:47.

is six years old. Where doctors have no inhibition about examining

:08:47.:08:56.

a girl's genitalia. TRANSLATION: After six years old, when we can no

:08:56.:09:01.

longer monitor girls here, we liaise with the school health

:09:01.:09:03.

inspector, who visit schools regularly, so they can check on

:09:03.:09:13.
:09:13.:09:14.

girls from families considered most at risk. If we find a young woman

:09:14.:09:18.

who has been mutilated, we offer her medical and psychological

:09:18.:09:28.
:09:28.:09:29.

support, and also surgery, if she wants. I will reconstruct the

:09:29.:09:34.

clitoris, the gland of the clitoris and put it in place, it takes

:09:34.:09:38.

approximately half an hour. This doctor operates on about 50 women a

:09:38.:09:43.

month. Women come from all over the world, including from the UK,

:09:43.:09:46.

though the majority are French immigrants. For them he operates

:09:46.:09:56.
:09:56.:09:56.

for free, the state pays the cost. So, we are able to restore a normal

:09:56.:09:59.

living clitoris. Although the visible clitoris was cut from the

:09:59.:10:03.

women as a child, part of it remains in the body. The doctor can

:10:03.:10:09.

bring that to the surface. I will be able to restore the labia, the

:10:09.:10:14.

upper part of it, it is very important for intercourse to have a

:10:14.:10:19.

normal sexuality, and it is also very important for normal

:10:19.:10:23.

conditions of livery. It is not quite normal, but it is a good

:10:23.:10:29.

restoration. Fatou had the operation a few

:10:29.:10:37.

months ago. TRANSLATION: I feel a complete person, at last, after my

:10:37.:10:41.

operation. Now I need gradually to get to know my sexuality. This is

:10:42.:10:51.
:10:52.:11:06.

what I'm doing now, and it's going The French approach to FGM is

:11:06.:11:16.

nothing if not thorough, in contrast to the UK. The director of

:11:16.:11:19.

an organisation that fights FGM here told me how she was tipped off

:11:19.:11:25.

by a family member of an ethnic community, who told her that two

:11:25.:11:35.
:11:35.:11:37.

little girls were at risk of being taken to London. Someone of this

:11:37.:11:41.

community called our organisations to say the family have train

:11:42.:11:51.

tickets to take the Eurostar to go to London, two girls will go in a

:11:51.:11:57.

way to undergo FGM. We received the information on the Friday, and

:11:57.:12:02.

decided to put the girl on the train on Saturday, so it was a

:12:02.:12:08.

necessity to be very, very quick to do something. Why is London a

:12:08.:12:12.

preferred destination for your immigrant communities? In England

:12:12.:12:17.

you are very respectful about traditions of every community who

:12:17.:12:23.

lives in your country. In our country it is totally different,

:12:23.:12:29.

because when migrants arrive in France, they are having the

:12:29.:12:34.

necessity to integrate into our law, our traditions our everything like

:12:34.:12:43.

that. But it is hard to see how the French approach, such as routinely

:12:43.:12:47.

examining the sexual organs of little girls, could transfer easily

:12:47.:12:56.

to the UK. It is generally agreed that we need to toughen up. But

:12:56.:13:06.
:13:06.:13:11.

more along the lines taken by The French argue that their "zero

:13:11.:13:15.

tolerance" approach towards FGM is working. But many would say it is

:13:15.:13:19.

too extreme. The British Government favour the Dutch model, which many

:13:19.:13:25.

would claim it is more respectful towards the ethnic communities. The

:13:25.:13:29.

difference in the Dutch approach, explains Zara, a spokesperson for

:13:29.:13:34.

the Somalis here, is that the Government consults with the ethnic

:13:34.:13:39.

communities. Routine examination of children was rejected, but the

:13:39.:13:42.

community asked for help to stop the many mutilations which take

:13:42.:13:46.

place, when a child goes with her parents back to their country of

:13:46.:13:52.

origin for a holiday. We have something in our hand, because the

:13:52.:13:56.

pressure from the family back home is very high. They now have these

:13:56.:14:00.

travel documents, which parents who don't want to mutilate their

:14:00.:14:05.

daughters can take with them. is a document which is signed by

:14:05.:14:14.

the minister of health, the minister and it is a Government

:14:14.:14:19.

document, and it shows them we are helping our families back home

:14:19.:14:23.

financially, no-one wants their children to go to prison.

:14:23.:14:29.

The documents are helping, she says, along with anti-FGM publicity. But

:14:29.:14:34.

many parents who still believe in FGM are moving to Britain. More

:14:34.:14:38.

than 10,000 Somalis move to the UK in the last few years, because

:14:38.:14:44.

there is no information, there is no campaign. Although FGM is not

:14:44.:14:49.

legal in the UK, but still the people are doing it underground. So

:14:49.:14:53.

even so many people from other European countries they are going

:14:53.:15:03.
:15:03.:15:04.

to the UK and they are circumcising their daughters there.

:15:04.:15:07.

Activists in Holland and France claim that parents who want to

:15:07.:15:17.
:15:17.:15:18.

mutilate their daughters are coming to the UK. They ask that we

:15:18.:15:21.

urgently reinforce the message against FGM on our side of the

:15:21.:15:28.

channel. Today a petition was presented to

:15:28.:15:31.

the Home Office Minister, Lynne Featherstone, signed by over 70,000

:15:31.:15:35.

people, calling on the Government to find and prosecute those

:15:35.:15:38.

responsible for mutilating women and girls in the UK. She joins us

:15:39.:15:44.

now. Along with the former model and human rights campaigner, Waris

:15:44.:15:48.

Dirie, Baroness Ruth Rendell, the French lawyer, Weil-Curiel cushion

:15:48.:15:52.

and Omer Ahmed from the Council of Somali Organisations. Also here are

:15:52.:15:57.

Dr Comfort Momoh, the UK expert on FGM, and an audience of students

:15:57.:16:02.

involved with the charity Integrate Bristol, which campaigns to prevent

:16:02.:16:07.

FGM in the UK. You had this done when you were five years old, I

:16:07.:16:17.
:16:17.:16:18.

just wondered what affect that has had on you? What affect? I'm not

:16:18.:16:23.

quite understanding what affect it changes your life. Did it?

:16:23.:16:29.

changes your life forever from that moment on. And nothing quite seemed

:16:29.:16:34.

the same. Like that little girl just said, physically, mentally,

:16:34.:16:41.

sexually, spiritually you are bankrupt. You just, you know, not

:16:42.:16:46.

only that, there are a lot of complication and sickness comes

:16:46.:16:51.

with it. You have health problems? All the way through, yes. Where was

:16:51.:16:56.

the pressure to do it? You were a little girl, was it a family thing?

:16:56.:17:05.

Yes, it was right in my mother's lap, unfortunately. Like you will

:17:05.:17:10.

hear it, a million times, it was just a normal thing for these

:17:10.:17:16.

people who practice it, these families. You, as a child, trust in

:17:16.:17:20.

your own parents, thinking whatever they do they are doing it right, or

:17:20.:17:24.

they are doing good, you don't really know what is going on.

:17:24.:17:26.

have heard some people say, my mother did it because she really

:17:26.:17:30.

loved me, and she thought it was a good thing, and my grandmother had

:17:30.:17:37.

it, and my great-grand mother s that true? It is a true fact, sad

:17:37.:17:43.

to say, it is. You can say, I ask you this, I can tell you this, that

:17:43.:17:50.

I have a little daughter that I adopted from Somali that I wanted

:17:50.:17:54.

to save from this mutilation two years ago. Two days ago I asked her

:17:54.:17:59.

how she feels about this, I explained it for two years I teach

:17:59.:18:04.

her, she looked at me and said I would have done it without no fight,

:18:04.:18:11.

I would have had to accept it. So that's what it is for the child.

:18:11.:18:14.

it the women within the Somali community demanding this rather

:18:14.:18:19.

than the men, is there pressure from men to do it? Fathers?

:18:19.:18:23.

Historically it would have been some historical support for that

:18:23.:18:28.

within the male community. But in the UK certainly not. This is

:18:28.:18:32.

almost entirely driven by women, there isn't demand, it is not

:18:32.:18:38.

supported by the male population. It is, in fact, always condemned,

:18:38.:18:43.

it is condemned in the mosques. There is no Koranic justification

:18:43.:18:47.

for it, it is not a Muslim thing? It is a cultural practice, I think

:18:47.:18:53.

Imams have been on TV, and in posks, and have stressed that point --

:18:53.:18:57.

mosques and stressed that point. There is now theological

:18:58.:19:01.

justification. It is a cultural thing in the Somali community, even

:19:01.:19:05.

in the UK, even though you say it is completely abhorrent to you?

:19:05.:19:10.

only is it that, it is important to get it into context, it is

:19:10.:19:13.

extremely minute proportion of the Somali community that may still

:19:13.:19:17.

practice this. How do you know that, that is certainly not we are

:19:18.:19:23.

hearing. We will go to the figures in a empt mo, how do you know it is

:19:23.:19:30.

a minute proportion, people -- in a moment, how do you know it is a mew

:19:30.:19:33.

newt proportion? 20 years ago it was much more prevalent, I'm trying

:19:33.:19:39.

to get across that over a period of time, through education, that has

:19:39.:19:42.

actually reduced, the prevalence of it has reduced significantly. You

:19:42.:19:47.

know I wouldn't say how do I know, from being in the community, my

:19:47.:19:51.

contacts within the community, but also contacts in the health service

:19:51.:19:55.

suggests the prevalence is reducing significantly. I come to Dr Comfort

:19:55.:20:01.

Momoh, you treat people after this has happened, I wonder what the

:20:01.:20:05.

health consequences were, sort of things you see? We see lots of

:20:06.:20:10.

women with complication, immediate complication such as heamorrhage

:20:10.:20:15.

that occurs, excessive bleeding. What we see with the pregnant women

:20:15.:20:19.

that we see, they present with infertility problems, which is

:20:19.:20:26.

related to infection over a period of time. They have inclusions cysts,

:20:26.:20:33.

or they have recurring urinry tract infection, as well as vaginal

:20:34.:20:36.

infection, period pain. And when they get married, to achieve

:20:37.:20:41.

penetration will take a long time, and they have the emotional and the

:20:41.:20:46.

psychological problems. There is physical, emotional, psychological,

:20:46.:20:49.

sexual, basically every problem. Yes. I suppose you can't put a

:20:49.:20:55.

figure on it, do you see more of it, a lot of it? I see more. I disagree

:20:55.:21:01.

with Omarn the sense that, we still -- Omar, in the sense that we still

:21:02.:21:05.

see a significant number of women and girls here in the UK. At my

:21:05.:21:11.

clinic we see about 400 women and girls with FGM-related problems. To

:21:11.:21:18.

me this is significant, and that's why we need to have a proper data,

:21:18.:21:22.

we need more research in terms of getting proper figures here in the

:21:22.:21:27.

UK. Let me ask you those of you who have helped us so much with the

:21:27.:21:32.

research here. I wonder what pressure you feel, some young women

:21:32.:21:36.

in your community feel from parents and others to have this down, you

:21:36.:21:39.

were very outspoken yesterday, do you hear about a lot of pressure to

:21:40.:21:45.

have this done? Most girls that are born here will think whatever my

:21:45.:21:50.

parents say is right. But I guess most of us have grown up with this

:21:50.:21:54.

mentality now where we're thinking no we are hafrpling our own bodies,

:21:54.:21:58.

and -- harming our own bodies and we shouldn't be doing. That now

:21:58.:22:01.

parents are more understanding. They don't have so much pressure

:22:01.:22:05.

under them compared to going back to Africa, for example, they

:22:05.:22:08.

probably feel so much more pressure that they have to mutilate their

:22:08.:22:12.

girls. Here they have far more freedom. They feel that here they

:22:12.:22:16.

can protect their girls easier. But, saying that, not enough is being

:22:16.:22:20.

done to protect these girls. The Government has no statistics. Omar

:22:20.:22:24.

over there says there is a minority that are practising it, and Comfort

:22:24.:22:28.

Momoh says she sees an increasing number of girls coming into her

:22:28.:22:32.

clinics. But there are no statistics, this is where the NHS

:22:32.:22:38.

is going wrong in this country. Anybody else want to come in on

:22:38.:22:44.

that? Do you hear a lot about it, do people talk about it a lot more?

:22:44.:22:47.

If you have FGM done you wouldn't really want to talk about it, you

:22:47.:22:52.

feel it is embarrassing. You are not normal. You think like oh that

:22:52.:22:56.

person it going to think I'm not normal any more. You keep it to

:22:56.:22:58.

yourself, you don't tell anyone about it. The doctors, they might

:22:58.:23:05.

not even know about it. They look for FGM type 3, they don't think

:23:06.:23:10.

type 1 is that important. What is that, more serious complication

:23:10.:23:16.

with type 3? Type 3 is where they get all of it done, type 1 is more

:23:16.:23:26.

common, and type 2 as well. Anybody else there? They don't really talk

:23:26.:23:30.

about it, especially when they have it done, they are scared that the

:23:30.:23:33.

doctors, or whoever they talk to about it, they don't really know

:23:33.:23:37.

what they are doing, they are losing faith in the NHS, or if they

:23:37.:23:41.

talk to a teacher, like if they confide in a teacher, they are

:23:41.:23:44.

losing confidence in the teacher, because they don't know what they

:23:44.:23:47.

are talking about. If the people were educated and know what types

:23:47.:23:51.

of FGM there are, and what it is, and the complication and

:23:51.:23:54.

implications of having it done are, then they are more likely to come

:23:54.:23:58.

out and speak out about having the procedure done. But if people don't

:23:58.:24:01.

know about it, no-one is going to talk about it, they will be like,

:24:01.:24:08.

OK, this has happened to me, no-one else has had it done.

:24:08.:24:12.

Lynne Featherstone, why are there no statistics, why does nobody

:24:12.:24:17.

collect figures on this? Firstly, let me say, this is an abhorrent

:24:17.:24:20.

practice, it is an abusive practice. While you say we turn a blind eye,

:24:20.:24:24.

actually that is not the truth. As soon as we came into Government we

:24:24.:24:27.

published an action plan a call to end violence against women and

:24:27.:24:32.

girls, which includes a whole section on FGM, it is a huge issue.

:24:32.:24:37.

But you don't know how big? don't know how big, but we are

:24:37.:24:41.

looking at how we may begin to get statistics. Data from the National

:24:41.:24:46.

Health Service has always been an issue in the sense that if people

:24:46.:24:49.

come there is an issue about if they think they are going to be

:24:49.:24:52.

reported, or if anything will be done, they may not present when

:24:52.:24:56.

they have complication. It is cultural sensitivites as we heard

:24:56.:25:00.

from some of our French interviewees? The health service

:25:00.:25:04.

has always said treat someone first, it is the same as if you are

:25:04.:25:10.

attacked with a knife. If it is a case of paedophilia, you have a

:25:10.:25:14.

responsibility to the charge, this is abuse? It is safeguarding issue.

:25:14.:25:17.

They report paedophilia, but not this? They should report it, and

:25:17.:25:22.

the police should take it seriously, they have a duty of safeguarding,

:25:22.:25:26.

local councils have a duty. There has not been a single prosecution?

:25:26.:25:29.

Indeed, that is over 25 years, we have been in Government two years,

:25:29.:25:32.

and we are taking action. We are moving forward. When you say there

:25:32.:25:35.

is not a single prosecution, we have heard from the girls and from

:25:35.:25:40.

others on the film, how difficult it is to get people to come forward.

:25:40.:25:44.

It would help if the authorities, if they feel they are taken

:25:44.:25:47.

seriously, if there isn't this cultural sensitivity and you do

:25:47.:25:50.

something about it? I am doing something about it T I agree, I

:25:50.:25:54.

think there has been, in general, in the past, an overcautious

:25:54.:25:58.

approach to reporting, and I'm holding a Round Table actually with

:25:58.:26:01.

the police and the health authorities in October to discuss

:26:01.:26:07.

this very part of this issue. have campaigned on this for a long

:26:07.:26:11.

time, Ruth Rendell, I wonder how big a problem you think it is now,

:26:11.:26:15.

and why we don't have these statistics. We have statistics on

:26:15.:26:21.

all kinds of other things? I have campaigned for about 12 years. I

:26:21.:26:25.

have made many speeches in the House of Lords, instituted many

:26:25.:26:29.

debates, asked questions, I have asked the Government to set up a

:26:29.:26:35.

national register, to record everybody who has seen to have FGM,

:26:35.:26:39.

so it can be noted. I have suggested to the them that all

:26:39.:26:47.

teachers should undergo a course so that they could spot children who,

:26:47.:26:51.

they could detect a childlikely to be on a holiday at this time of

:26:51.:26:55.

year, to be taken out of this country, to the Horn of Africa, on

:26:55.:27:04.

a kould holiday. To stop T I have - - called holiday. To stop it. I

:27:04.:27:08.

have alerted the Government to how bad it is. They don't seem to be

:27:08.:27:12.

listening, Lynne Featherstone says they are listening now? I don't

:27:12.:27:17.

think they have listened. Just a second. Why haven't they been

:27:17.:27:21.

listening, and in what way? I wish I knew, I have asked them and even

:27:21.:27:25.

had promises of setting up various committees and so on to look into

:27:25.:27:30.

it. In all that time I have never had any response of that kind.

:27:30.:27:34.

minister is here? In terms, I think you are absolutely right, the

:27:34.:27:37.

summer holiday are a very dangerous time, and last year the police were

:27:37.:27:41.

at the airports intervening with families with girls going to those

:27:41.:27:46.

countries. I have also, last week, had my officials, in Africa,

:27:46.:27:50.

talking to counsuls from every consular place across Africa to

:27:50.:27:53.

give them the information and leaflets and guidance that is

:27:53.:27:56.

practice, to put it up so people coming for visas will have some

:27:56.:28:00.

information, and know that it is illegal in this country. So we are

:28:00.:28:05.

taking action. What do you think about that? I really don't

:28:05.:28:10.

understand what's going on with the Government. What they plan is, and

:28:10.:28:15.

the truth, the plain truth is they don't give a damn. That is

:28:15.:28:20.

ridiculous. I was there 15 years ago, in the house of parliament, I

:28:20.:28:26.

spoke about this, I wrote a book, there is movies, there is nothing

:28:26.:28:33.

changed. So I don't know what you do. Sorry. I want to talk a little

:28:33.:28:36.

bit about what is happening in France, why is France different, is

:28:36.:28:39.

it just different culturally because this is the way you are,

:28:39.:28:44.

and you are less culturally sensitive to ethnic minorities?

:28:44.:28:54.
:28:54.:28:54.

Maybe, I feel the channel is really wide now. Why is it different? We

:28:54.:29:04.

are very careful of the health of little children. We have asked

:29:04.:29:08.

doctors to show the parents, the mothers, who come to the family

:29:08.:29:15.

centres, how a little girl is made. How are their sexual parts, and the

:29:15.:29:19.

use that the girl will have for this. They do it naturally for the

:29:19.:29:23.

boys. They check their three pieces, you know, little things. To make

:29:23.:29:27.

sure it is all there. Make sure, every time. Systematically.

:29:27.:29:31.

girls, do you think it is an education problem. You also have a

:29:31.:29:36.

big stick, people can go to prison as we have seen for this, and they

:29:36.:29:42.

do? It is the doctor's duty to inform the authority, the

:29:42.:29:47.

prosecutor, if he notices that the child has been hurt, in any way,

:29:47.:29:54.

beaten black and blue, broken arm, sexually abused, sexually mutilated.

:29:54.:29:58.

Do parents ever object and say no, we don't want our children to be

:29:58.:30:05.

exampled? Of course not. They couldn't, it is for the child's

:30:05.:30:08.

sake. Lynne Featherstone can we do that here? I don't think that would

:30:08.:30:14.

be acceptable here, I think it is incredibly intrusive. I would not

:30:14.:30:18.

want my daughter examined annually before the age of six, I wouldn't

:30:18.:30:22.

want her examined every time she came back from abroad, her

:30:22.:30:26.

genitalia to be examined. However, we are following, as we saw in the

:30:26.:30:29.

film, we are following the Dutch route with an equivalent to the

:30:29.:30:33.

Dutch health passport, which we will be trialing later this year,

:30:33.:30:36.

which actually does pretty much what you saw in the film, and

:30:36.:30:41.

actually gives them a piece of paper when they go to countries to

:30:41.:30:45.

be mutilated, which says, this is illegal, you are breaking the law,

:30:45.:30:49.

even if you it is done in another country. It is happening here, that

:30:49.:30:53.

is part of the problem? I was interested in your film, I haven't

:30:53.:30:56.

heard about this tourism for mutilation before your film tonight.

:30:56.:31:01.

I would very much like anyone who knows people coming to this country,

:31:01.:31:06.

for goodness sake, inform us, we don't have this information.

:31:06.:31:10.

that point about explanations and, you know, you said about who do you

:31:10.:31:14.

tell, do you talk to a teacher and so on. Would you or anybody you

:31:14.:31:17.

know object to those kinds of things, would it be OK if it was

:31:17.:31:21.

done at school, with a doctor, like the one sitting next to you, would

:31:21.:31:24.

you object? I don't understand why anyone would object. When you are

:31:24.:31:28.

older you are going to be looked at any way, you will have the smear

:31:28.:31:31.

test done. What's the problem having it done when you are younger,

:31:31.:31:34.

just being looked at. It is not like you are being sexually abused

:31:34.:31:38.

or anything. You are making sure everything is fine and there is no

:31:38.:31:41.

complication, and there is nothing wrong with you. It is helping you

:31:41.:31:45.

in the long run, I don't understand why there is an objection to having

:31:45.:31:50.

someone examine you, especially when it is a qualified doctor.

:31:50.:31:53.

Providing it is a qualified doctor. What do you think about it? I think

:31:54.:31:58.

it is, you know, when you are examining a child, you are thinking

:31:58.:32:02.

about their safety, no the fact that this is too culturally

:32:02.:32:06.

sensitive, this is a child's life at risk. About the prosecutions,

:32:06.:32:08.

the Sunday Times did a quick investigation and they quickly

:32:09.:32:13.

found about four people who are willing to mutilate girls, police

:32:13.:32:16.

officers could have done that very easily, the Government could have

:32:16.:32:20.

helped them, they haven't. Do you accept, you are putting everything

:32:20.:32:24.

on the Government, I will come back to the minister in a second, there

:32:24.:32:27.

is obviously a responsibility in the community, it might demand some

:32:27.:32:31.

girls, your age or younger, having to testify about their parents,

:32:31.:32:35.

about somebody who does this to them, about their grandparents,

:32:35.:32:38.

that is really difficult? The thing is the Government are not helping

:32:38.:32:43.

these girls, the community are the perpetrators, with any other form

:32:43.:32:46.

of abuse, the community wouldn't be asked to deal with the subject.

:32:46.:32:52.

When it comes to FGM the community have to deal with it, that is wrong.

:32:52.:32:55.

This is abuse. It is important to recognise when the doctor, for

:32:55.:32:59.

example, says we are picking up increasing numbers of women coming

:32:59.:33:05.

to clinics, that is actually a good thing. That shows that the NHS is

:33:05.:33:10.

working and picking these issues up. It also tells you something about

:33:10.:33:14.

the statistics. You ask where are the statistics coming from, what

:33:14.:33:19.

you are actually seeing is today the younger generation, those who

:33:19.:33:25.

are being, have undergone FGM, back in Somalia, who are now reaching

:33:25.:33:29.

their 20s and 30s, now facing these complication, who are now

:33:30.:33:32.

increasingly turning to the NHS. I think some of the points that Lynn

:33:32.:33:35.

made about the work the Government is doing. The Government has done a

:33:35.:33:40.

lot of work, I think probably testament to the efforts of the

:33:41.:33:45.

Baroness. But the CPS have very rigorous guidelines to their

:33:45.:33:52.

prosecutors in terms of spotting FGM and how to tackle it. They are

:33:52.:33:56.

so rigorous they haven't tackled a single one. The French prosecutors

:33:57.:34:01.

who have rigorous guidelines managed to spot 100. With respect

:34:01.:34:07.

if we take the approach, the idea that you could, and I'm totally

:34:07.:34:11.

with Lynn on this h the idea that you would some how forcibly, there

:34:11.:34:16.

is no issue of choice here, take children randomly, whom you are

:34:16.:34:21.

identifying by their race, we will not say that, we will say we will

:34:21.:34:26.

identify them by virtue of their risk factors. We are talk about by

:34:26.:34:31.

their race. It is not forcible? at all. People can object if they

:34:31.:34:36.

want? They correction but why should they? The doctor is there to

:34:36.:34:41.

take care of the child. Do you accept there is a degree of

:34:41.:34:44.

profiling, in other words, you are not saying it to Polish immigrants

:34:44.:34:48.

or Chinese immigrants, you are looking at certain ethnic groups?

:34:48.:34:53.

Not at all, we are asking the doctors to examine any child, they

:34:53.:35:00.

all deserve the same service. has to be every child. Of course.

:35:00.:35:04.

There aren't going to be so many going to that particular part of

:35:04.:35:10.

the world, under a certain age. But obviously you cannot select

:35:10.:35:13.

children according to race. That can't be, but it can be children,

:35:13.:35:17.

as you were saying, Chinese, whatever it is, all children.

:35:17.:35:20.

minister, you heard some of the girls saying, it is their personal

:35:20.:35:25.

views, they wouldn't have a problem with it, they don't see why anybody

:35:25.:35:29.

would. The bigger issue in the prosecution sense, it is very, very

:35:29.:35:32.

difficult to get girls to come forward and give evidence. There

:35:32.:35:35.

has been training for prosecutors, we are actually having a year's

:35:35.:35:39.

worth of referrals that didn't get to court analysed to see why they

:35:39.:35:42.

have fallen down. People used to say this about rape, you know,

:35:42.:35:45.

there was a difficulty about getting people to come forward.

:35:45.:35:48.

What's the difficulty. It is a matter for the authorities? As I

:35:48.:35:51.

said, I'm holding this meeting in October, with police and health

:35:51.:35:55.

authorities, to see how we can move forward on this. But, you know,

:35:55.:36:00.

prosecution, we prosecute rape, and we prosecute theft, and it hasn't

:36:00.:36:03.

stopped rape or theft, unfortunately. This is about, in

:36:03.:36:09.

the end, a huge change, a huge shift. I waent to Ethiopia recently,

:36:09.:36:14.

on -- I went to Ethiopia recently on a mission to tackle violence

:36:14.:36:19.

against women and met with them there tackling FGM, very prevalent

:36:20.:36:28.

in those countries they are using different things to tackle whole

:36:29.:36:31.

communities and it is much more productive. Do you think there is

:36:31.:36:35.

an issue within communities, you are showing us by being here and

:36:35.:36:40.

making the film. I ask, who are you trying to protect, the parents or

:36:40.:36:42.

the kids. Obviously if the parents have something to hide, they will

:36:42.:36:46.

say to you, no, we don't want our child to be examined. You want the

:36:46.:36:50.

child's safety to be first, so you should be thinking about that, not

:36:50.:37:00.

what the parents say. I absolutely agree. This is a child's life here,

:37:00.:37:04.

upsetting the parents, you think be about upsetting the parents, and

:37:04.:37:07.

probably insulting them. If this was any other form of abuse, would

:37:07.:37:11.

you be thinking about upsetting the parents, you would be thinking

:37:11.:37:14.

about the child's life first. you think your generation is

:37:14.:37:17.

different, and you are standing up and saying what you think in a very

:37:17.:37:20.

clear way, this is a cultural practice that we will not see in

:37:20.:37:24.

the future do you think? generation is different, we were

:37:24.:37:29.

educated, they were told, you know, the harmful effects of FGM, some of

:37:30.:37:32.

our great-grand parents or grandparents, they didn't have

:37:32.:37:35.

these opportunities. But schools are still not doing enough to

:37:35.:37:38.

protect these girls. Do you think it is time, though, for British

:37:38.:37:42.

schools, British people, to assert British values. This is clearly

:37:42.:37:47.

unacceptable in this country? Absolutely. We mustn't tip toe

:37:47.:37:52.

around it? There has been far too much sensitivity, we can't tip toe

:37:52.:37:57.

around it. These girls are the hope for the future. I met with

:37:57.:38:02.

Integrate Bristol a few weeks ago, they are fiercesome. They made a

:38:02.:38:06.

film, The Silent Scream, that was your film, truly remarkable. You

:38:06.:38:09.

yourselves said, did you not, that your whole community turned on you

:38:09.:38:18.

for actually having the bravery to speak out. I'm trying to indicate

:38:18.:38:22.

how very difficult it is within the community. Are you encouraged by

:38:22.:38:25.

what you have heard over here? I was with them, I helped them all

:38:25.:38:32.

the way I can. And I will. Yes I'm with them, and what they do is what

:38:32.:38:37.

everybody should do, not just them. Starting with the Government of the

:38:37.:38:41.

place. Thank you very much. Now, the names

:38:41.:38:45.

of Hollywood stars, Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie were read out

:38:45.:38:48.

alongside those from football, Wayne Rooney and Sven-Goran

:38:48.:38:53.

Eriksson, joining them on the list was the murdered schoolgirl of

:38:53.:38:58.

Milly Dowler. The role call, unconnected, was the crime of phone

:38:58.:39:03.

hacking. Eight people, including the former Downing Street

:39:03.:39:06.

communications chief, Andy Coulson, and former newspaper chief, Rebekah

:39:06.:39:10.

Brooks, would be charged in relation to hacking of voicemails.

:39:10.:39:16.

After months of investigations, the dodgy practices of newspapers and

:39:16.:39:23.

their links with political leaders will come to trial.

:39:23.:39:27.

Justice appears in various eulogises, today it came in the

:39:27.:39:31.

form of Alison Levitt of the Crown Prosecution Service. Tremulous in

:39:31.:39:35.

tone, yet certain in their purpose. This was the culmination of 19

:39:35.:39:42.

months of police investigations. The eight who will be charged are,

:39:43.:39:51.

Rebekah Brooks, Andy Coulson, Stuart Kuttner, Glenn Mulcaire,

:39:51.:39:55.

Greg Miskiw, Ian Edmondson mond, Neville Thurlbeck and James

:39:55.:40:02.

Weatherup. They will face a total of 19 charges in all.

:40:02.:40:08.

Once a private investigator, mull mull, others senior editoral

:40:08.:40:11.

figures at News of the World. All charged with conspiring to hack the

:40:11.:40:16.

phone of more than 600 people, over a period of six years. The alleged

:40:16.:40:20.

victims range from Paul McCartney to Angelina Jolie, John Prescott

:40:20.:40:25.

and David Blunkett, to the murdered Milly Dowler. The ramifications are

:40:25.:40:30.

enormous, with two of those charged, both former editors, having enjoyed

:40:30.:40:34.

close relationships with the Prime Minister. Rebekah Brooks was David

:40:34.:40:40.

Cameron's personal friend, while Andy Coulson was a righthandman.

:40:40.:40:43.

After resigning from the News of the World, Andy Coulson was

:40:43.:40:47.

appointed Mr Cameron's communications director. Like so

:40:47.:40:51.

many others embroiled in this scandal, both Cameron and Coulson

:40:51.:40:55.

have given evidence to the Leveson Inquiry, which, by coincidence,

:40:55.:40:59.

listeneded today. Last month at Leveson, David Cameron was asked

:40:59.:41:04.

why he had employed Andy Coulson. He had left his last job after

:41:04.:41:06.

resigning because of the things that happened. That was, obviously,

:41:06.:41:13.

as I have said in my evidence, I was giving him a second chance. The

:41:13.:41:17.

second reason, it was, there was controversy, is this was a tabloid

:41:17.:41:22.

editor. Leveson also heard from the man who recommended Coulson to

:41:22.:41:27.

Cameron, the Chancellor, George Osborne. I would suggest to you

:41:27.:41:32.

that everything that's happened since, no-one has ever mounted a

:41:32.:41:35.

serious complaint about the way he was, the Director of Communications

:41:35.:41:39.

for the Conservative Party, or subsequently for the Government.

:41:39.:41:42.

This afternoon Andy Coulson emerged from his home to declare his anger

:41:42.:41:48.

at now facing five criminal charges. I'm obviously extremely

:41:48.:41:54.

disappointed by the CPS decision today. I will fight these

:41:54.:41:56.

allegations, when they eventually get to court. But I would like to

:41:56.:42:00.

say one thing today about the Milly Dowler allegations. Anyone who

:42:01.:42:04.

knows me, or who has worked with me, will know that I wouldn't, more

:42:04.:42:08.

importantly, that I didn't, do anything to damage the Milly Dowler

:42:08.:42:12.

investigation. Rebekah Brooks issued a statement saying she was

:42:12.:42:16.

innocent and angry. At Leveson, the Prime Minister had been asked about

:42:16.:42:21.

country suppers with Brooks, and why she had once texted him before

:42:21.:42:25.

a speech, saying "professionally, we're in this together". We were,

:42:25.:42:29.

as she put it, friends, but professionally me as leader of the

:42:29.:42:33.

Conservative Party, her in newspapers, we were going to be

:42:33.:42:38.

pushing the same political agenda. For the Prime Minister, questions

:42:38.:42:44.

over his judgment will continue, while his friend face charges which

:42:44.:42:50.

carry two-year jail terms. Allegra Stratton is here, does this remain

:42:50.:42:53.

slightly awkward for the Prime Minister? It is awkward, it is

:42:53.:42:57.

inconvenient. You have a sunny day, a day with the Olympics approaching,

:42:57.:43:02.

and a day where he had three former prime ministers of all the two

:43:02.:43:07.

different parties in Downing Street, and yet he's reminded of this

:43:07.:43:09.

incredibly uncomfortable problem on his doorstep. It is something that

:43:09.:43:14.

doesn't go away. Today we had an indication from both Rebekah Brooks

:43:14.:43:18.

and Andy Coulson that they intend to fight the charges incredibly

:43:18.:43:23.

fiercesomely. And that sense that it will be long, and keep on going.

:43:23.:43:26.

You have a Prime Minister trying to go into the middle part of this

:43:26.:43:29.

parliament, with some confidence. Now he knows that's going to have a

:43:29.:43:34.

very long trial going on in the background. Does it have the

:43:34.:43:38.

capacity to hurt him, or is it just that kind of irritation factor?

:43:38.:43:42.

Another thing we learned today suggests it does. The Milly Dowler

:43:42.:43:47.

case was the reason why he called for a public inquiry, and the Milly

:43:47.:43:51.

Dowler case has been name checked as a reason why these individuals

:43:51.:43:55.

are being charged. It is the exact link that has now been made, that

:43:55.:43:58.

is the problem. It was the Milly Dowler case that turned this into

:43:58.:44:02.

an issue that people cared about, because it involved normal people,

:44:02.:44:06.

rather than involving celebrities who are, in some ways normal, but

:44:06.:44:11.

in some ways not. Let's have a quick look at tomorrow morning's

:44:11.:44:17.

front pages, the Times has Boris Johnson saying he pays cash for odd

:44:17.:44:27.
:44:27.:44:28.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 40 seconds

:44:28.:45:08.

jobs, unlike the Government That's all from Newsnight tonight,

:45:08.:45:16.

we leave you with three-year-old Sophia Dickson from louk borrow,

:45:16.:45:21.

whose wall climbing skills have gained her a place on YouTube, and

:45:21.:45:25.

maybe a place in the Olympics. can do it, I can do it, I can do

:45:25.:45:35.
:45:35.:45:42.

it! I can do this, I can do it, I can do it!

:45:42.:45:47.

# I want to be a man, man cub # And stroll right into town

:45:47.:45:53.

# And be just like the other men # I'm tired of mugging around

:45:53.:46:02.

Good evening, another hot day in southern areas, with the highest

:46:02.:46:06.

temperature of the year recorded. More sunshine to come through the

:46:06.:46:09.

day on Wednesday, across the southern half of the UK. Our

:46:09.:46:13.

weather front, that has been bringing cloud and rain is going to

:46:13.:46:17.

fizzle away, by Wednesday afternoon we have a good deal of sunshine

:46:17.:46:20.

across parts of northern England. The very small risk of a light

:46:20.:46:24.

shower across the north and Midlands, for most it will be a dry

:46:24.:46:29.

day. We might get to 31 or 32 degrees across the south-east

:46:29.:46:34.

corner. Cooler and fresher around the coast, with sea breezes

:46:34.:46:38.

developing. Moving further inland you will see the heat. Cloud in

:46:39.:46:43.

Wales, but another fine, dry day on Wednesday. For Northern Ireland

:46:43.:46:47.

much brighter, sunshine around, temperatures climbing to the mid-

:46:47.:46:52.

to-high teens, across Scotland, again a good deal of dry, bright

:46:52.:46:55.

weather, cloudier around the Aberdeen coastline. Temperatures in

:46:55.:47:01.

Inverness reaching highs of 18 degrees, 19 in Edinburgh, with well

:47:01.:47:03.

broken cloud giving sunshine. We may start to see the cloud

:47:03.:47:07.

increasing through the day on Thursday. Keeping the sunshine on

:47:07.:47:09.

Bristol, where temperatures on Wednesday and Thursday will reach

:47:09.:47:14.

the high 20, well above average for the time of year. You will see the

:47:14.:47:17.

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