24/08/2012 Newsnight


24/08/2012

How does liberal Norway deal with a mass murderer. Has the Sun gone too far with the Prince Harry photos? Why was cyclist Lance Armstrong banned? With Emily Maitlis.


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Declared sane - Norway's mass murderer is made accountable for

:00:08.:00:12.

his actions. Victims greets the verdict with relief - but so does

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Breivik. How should a liberal society respond to killings that

:00:17.:00:24.

came from within? I wish to apologise to all militant

:00:24.:00:28.

nationalistness Norway and Europe, that I wasn't able to kill more

:00:29.:00:33.

people. 850 complaints to the press

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commission, after the Sun newspapers publishes nude photos of

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Harry. Has the papers actions made Leveson's job easier. It did the

:00:45.:00:48.

death nel for people who print on trees.

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And Lance Armstrong is striped off his Tour de France title and banned

:00:52.:01:02.
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for life. What proof of doping did Hello, good evening, can a man who

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killed 77 people in cold blood ever be deemed sane? Yes, came the

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emphatic answer from a nor weepbl court today. Judging the raveings

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of Anders Breivik to be world views, not psychotic delusions. The

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hearings in Oslo put not just one man but entire country's legal

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system on trial before the world. The court sentence, Breivik 21

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years in prison, but he sees him as a political prisoner and vows to

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continue his extremist cause under lock and key.

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It is the victims we should be talking about today. There were 77

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of them. Some blown up by a car bomb, most gunned down at a summer

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camp. People whose names most of us still haven't learned. People

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murdered by a former nobody whose name is known right around the

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world. In the mind of brick brick brick, that alone is a victory -

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Anders Breivik is a victory. So too using a courtroom as a platform for

:02:12.:02:18.

his hate-filled views. Something the judge prevented him doing today.

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TRANSLATION: I wish to apologise to all militant nationalists in Norway

:02:22.:02:28.

and Europe, that I wasn't able to kill more people...

:02:28.:02:38.
:02:38.:02:38.

TRANSLATION: No wonder he left the courtroom pleased. As far as he's

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concerned he is a political prisoner, he avoided being declared

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insane, a fate he would be worse than death n jail, where he will

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spend 21 years, he will have three cells to himself. One is for

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exercise, another is to for reading and writing, and though his

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computer won't be on-line, he can use it to write messages, his

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followers can take away and distribute around the globe. So is

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this trial a fiasco, a triumph for the man in the dock? Actually no.

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I don't think it is a victory for him, no. If it is a victory for him,

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it is not important. Primarily it is a victory for the system and

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accepting that he is a political terrorist, and not a mad man. You

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could say that's a victory for him but it is the truth. We can't deny

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the truth just because he wants it. Some people athe system bent over

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backwards, was it too generous, with standards for somebody who

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hates those standards? You could say so. But it is proud we didn't

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choing our laws, after this incident. Every democratic society

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faces the same delema. How far to apply its own tolerant values, to

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people who despise those values, and would destroy them. This case,

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where unusually liberal country faced an enemy highlighted that

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dilemma in an extreme form. Today's result has seen Norway reaffirm its

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own values. Even the decision to declare Breivik sane, as he himself

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wanted has been good, many believe, for society, forcing it to confront

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his views, and not dismiss them. The demise of his views, doesn't

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come from the court, but it comes from the blowings, the debates, the

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public discourse, all over Europe these days, that claims many of the

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ideas that Anders Breivik claims. It claims we are at war and Muslims

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are taking over. Hopefully, this verdict will take Norwegian society

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face up to the political aspects of his deeds. How Breivik became the

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man responsible for this cold- blooded carnage. Was much analysed

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in court. How he lost contact with his father,

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frightened his own mother, spent years without a job, obsess civil

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playing video Games. And claimed to be an member of a anti-Islamic

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group, but something, his biographies irrelevant. We've

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looked in his eyes and asked who are you. We should ask how did you

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become a right-wing extremist terrorist, what is in our society

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that made you become that. After the massacre, Norwegians came

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together to denounce any intolerance in their midst. Their

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reply, many said would be more openness, more multi-culturalism.

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We survived Breivik, we did better at integrating more immigrants,

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having more tolerance and democracy. Many say, hostility to immigrants

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is on the rise again. With demands for refugees to be deported.

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hasn't changed Norway at all. What's happened is these, this

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debate has become more cemented, harder and also, strangely enough

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the people who agree with Anders Breivik, like to blowing a few, in

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the defence league, they have now become a part of mainstream media

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in Norway. It is natural to want something good to come out of such

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horror. But nor weeks will have to summon up all the virtues to keep

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asking of themselves, and their society, and not remain, as we all

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so often are fixated by the killer. Joining us from Oslo now is Asne

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Seierstad award winning aur author and journalist, who is writing

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about this case. Thanks for joining us. That same verdict then, broadly

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welcomeed by victims and also, by Breivik himself. But, it allows

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himself to treat himself as a political prisoner, a legitimacy?

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Yes. But this was not a political trial. It was not a political

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verdict. And I think it was the right verdict. It was actually a

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sane verdict because this was a sane man. It didn't mean he did

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good actions, the opposite, he executed this, planned this, and

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knew what he was doing, he was not psychotic, and this was the right

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verdict and this is a verdict that Norway can be at peace with.

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Does it worry you, that he can still use a political platform from

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inside prison, he can talk to those who calls his followers?

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definitely worries me if that will be as it has been from tomorrow on.

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We don't know that. Nobody has been able to answer us that, but the

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fact is that until now, he has had his computer, personal printer, he

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has been able to post, with stamps to communicate with bloggerers with

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followers, around the world, to put his opinions on the web. But, I

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hope, and most Norwegians with me, hope now, this computer will be

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taken from him, because it is rare, a prisoner has a computer in his

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cell. It is only at the end of the sentence, if he does education, or

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if he is preparing to get back to ordinary life. But the reason why

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he's had so many privileges in the cell S that he is a good

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manipulator and negotiator, and the first thing he said, when he was

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captured on the island, was a policeman sitting on on top of him,

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he said as soon as we start talking we can negotiate. What he wanted

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was a computer, a printer, and another, a certain other demands.

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And he got that, until now. I think maybe now that was the right

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decision to make him co-operate. But it is a new reality now. It's

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very interesting, because what we've heard in the piece S a man

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who has unfortunately as this may be, got his own way. You've given

:09:14.:09:19.

an example. We heard about hostility, potentially on the rise

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towards immigrants, that some of these slightly extremist bloggers,

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are encourageed into the mainstream immediatea. Are these changes that,

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Norway welcomes? Well, I I don't really agree with that report. I

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don't think we have more hostility in Norway, than towards immigrants

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than any other country. I think this man, Breivik, he could have

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appeared in any European country. He did appear in our country so. We

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have to deal with it. And we have to take it seriously. But, I don't

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really say that, I wouldn't say there's hostility on the rise

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against immigration, yes there is tension, there are different

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opinions, in Norwegian society, but this is still, the most non-violent

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society in Europe, with a less murders, and crime. So I don't

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think we should exaggerate and think Norway has become any more

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dangerous, because of this one person. Do you think Norway has

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changed? It is a cliche to say, that it has emerged stronger

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through this. But do you think there has been a fundamental shift

:10:32.:10:38.

in the country and the way it cease itself? We have changed, because

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this is a wound that struck us, and we will have to try and heal it. Of

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course, a heart of a country doesn't really change so quickly.

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But, definitely, we have, we now have to question ourselves, serious

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questions about how we deal with the others, the immigrants, those

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from the outside world. And definitely, this is one of the core

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issues across Europe. I think that whether we emerge stronger, it's

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too early to tell. We're in the middle of it. Let me ask you one

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last thought, he said he wants to destroy the Labour Party, this has

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been one of his goals. Do you think he is succeeding? Is there a sense

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that the Labour Party is in trouble as a result of the actions it's

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witnessed? Well, the Labour Party is definitely in trouble for the

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moment. The Government is in trouble. For several reasons, it's

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in office for eight years, but also the devastating inquiry, the

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independent inquiry looking at how Norway, the nor week police forces

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and Norwegian authorities and crisis committees, they did not

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work. There was a total failure and collapse of the system.

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Unfortunately, so many lives were lost, also, because of the failure

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of the system. Of course, the Government is taking part of the

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blame. And whether Breivik is sitting there rejoicing in his cell,

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in the next election, which is in a year's time, seeing the Labour

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Party going down to a right-wing Government, there's still a year to

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go, to see that. It really depends, it is important what the Labour

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Party is doing within the next year. Thank you very much. Riding to the

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rescue of press freedom came the Sun. Its symbol sawed truth, trusty

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shield of fair play was nude pictures of a Prince, most people

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had seen on-line. 850 people complained to the Press Complaints

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Commission for the decision to run them. While Boris Johnson said it

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was deafings indifference, many people in the industry expressed

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frustration, as it would give ammunition to the Leveson, with new

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regulation. It was the Sun, what done it. Today, three days after

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the pictures first appeared on-line, the best selling tabloid decide

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today publish and be damned. But by that time, more tan 13 million

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Brits had searched for Harry's nude pictures on the internet. Whether

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or not this is in the public interest, there's no doubt the

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prick are interested. Well, most of us, anyway. It is a kind of

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deafening indifference, I don't know what my view, a kind of

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spectacular... A scandal would be if you went to Las Vagas, and

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didn't misbehave in some trivial way. Now the pictures have rld of a

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an old-fashioned press, the debate of privacy has ratcheted up again.

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The Sun said readers had a right to see the pictures, because they're

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already on-line The pictures are a mouse click away from 77% of

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households with internet access, it is absurd in the internet age

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newspapers like the Sun could be stopped from publishing stories and

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pictures, already seen by millions on the free-for-all that is the

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web". Jiefplt this shows us from 2004:. Some digital gurus, agree.

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Public interest is the public interest. And while we may say they

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breached the laws or privacy concerns around this, when we see

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the massive indication and people absorbing the news story from all

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over the news, journalist integrity requires that they do this story

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and they cover it appropriately, because the public declared their

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interest, we have the tools to monitor that and track it. Now we

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have those available, we should be using them in setting our news

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agendas. There's a sense of editors the Sun has not only thumbed its

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nose at the law, but the rest of the industry. None of the tabloid

:15:07.:15:11.

editors I spoke to would go on the record but privately they were

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furious. One editor said to me "we all decided together that none of

:15:15.:15:19.

the papers were going to publish these pictures, now the Sun has

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broken rank, for purely commercial reasons. At a time when we're

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desperately trying to prove we can be trust today regulate ourselves".

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Another one said "they've handed Leveson a loaded gun." 850 people

:15:34.:15:39.

have tkphraind to the PCC but there are others who say somebody had to

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break rank before the UK began to look like a dictatorship. As far as

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the photographs are evidence to that story, on balance, it has to

:15:49.:15:54.

be published. Imagine the Leveson Lion, the post-Leveson Lion, were

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drawn here, in other words you couldn't publish privacy

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infringeing material, even where there was an argueable case in the

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public interest, even where there was an argueable interest, you

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would leapfrog France and end up in abduer zie stand. There's a clear

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law of privacy here, there was a case, jofg Jamie theeck son, and

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that established the fact that newspapers, publishing images, is

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far more intrusive than telling a story. As a result if you were

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going to publish an intrusive image of somebody, you have to have a

:16:36.:16:40.

very clear, public interest, which justifies not just the telling of

:16:40.:16:44.

the story, but also, the publication of that image. In this

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case, everybody has told thetor story but nobody has been able to

:16:48.:16:52.

cast around and find a public interest which justifies the

:16:52.:16:55.

publication of the actual image. That's a clear distinction in the

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law and which one the Sun has chosen to ignore. While Harry

:17:02.:17:07.

kavortd in red Bermudas, lit does he know, what happens in Vegas,

:17:07.:17:14.

doesn't always stay in Vegas. Who needs the paparazzi, when you have

:17:14.:17:18.

new best friend with camera phones. The regulators need to catch up

:17:18.:17:21.

with the Facebook generation. They're looking at the issues to

:17:21.:17:25.

find a new framework. And then instead of focusing on the

:17:25.:17:28.

negatives around that, they should be looking at the positive aspects

:17:28.:17:32.

what it could mean to open up this news agenda and allow media

:17:32.:17:36.

organisation toss make those ethical choices. It is difficult in

:17:36.:17:39.

the context of the Leveson Inquiry and phone hacking and all the

:17:39.:17:42.

things that have come before, recently, but it is about time we

:17:42.:17:46.

look at this. Back at the palace this afternoon it was keep calm and

:17:46.:17:53.

carry on as they released a video of Harry, fully clothed, paying

:17:53.:18:00.

tribute to Paralympians. Paralympics torve relay is a

:18:00.:18:05.

curtain to the Games, :. It was a stark contrast the image on the

:18:05.:18:10.

fropt page of the Sun. So was their decision to defy the PCC a bold

:18:10.:18:15.

move to show the regulators there's life in the old tabloid dog yet? Or

:18:15.:18:24.

have they, just handed Lord Leveson a loaded gun? John Prescott who

:18:24.:18:28.

suffered privacy invasion, joining us from Hull. Here in the studio,

:18:28.:18:32.

the former executive of News of the World, currently on police bail as

:18:32.:18:36.

part of the phone hacking investigation, thus unable to

:18:36.:18:42.

answer questions related to that this evening Neil Wallace do you

:18:42.:18:45.

feel News International have done a whole British press a service

:18:45.:18:52.

today? Yes. Of course I do. Yes. It is interesting to see that the BBC

:18:52.:18:56.

take ago typical neutral stance? The way we're presenting this

:18:56.:19:00.

discussion tonight. What I think is the truth of the matter is this is

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Leveson's worse night mare. It is exactly the situation he wouldn't

:19:04.:19:07.

have wanted, because the truth of the matter is these pictures were

:19:07.:19:13.

published all over the world, and it is bonkers, and affront to

:19:13.:19:16.

natural justice to suggest you can't print them on paper in this

:19:16.:19:22.

country, when the rest of the world is looking at them. Lord Prescott?

:19:22.:19:28.

Well, Neil Wallace was in the News of the World which got closed down

:19:28.:19:32.

because of its activities of releasing information on to the

:19:32.:19:35.

internet and using as a justification, in the Max Moseley

:19:35.:19:43.

case to print. What is going on here? 8 70 people complained,

:19:43.:19:47.

they're useless as we've been pointing out zsh the PCC but the

:19:47.:19:52.

editors actually said, what they wanted to do was shorpen up the

:19:52.:19:57.

editors code, they were going to act together, get a definite of

:19:58.:20:02.

public interest. As soon as they meet one day, and agree this is a

:20:02.:20:07.

breach of the editor's code, and wouldn't print, some agreed and

:20:07.:20:12.

changed its mind. And now talks about public interest. Do you

:20:12.:20:17.

concede Neil's point we end up looking ridiculous, when we make a

:20:17.:20:20.

difference pictures circulating you will over the place on the internet,

:20:20.:20:25.

and one newspaper, one bit of paper. Leveson is beginning to look at

:20:25.:20:29.

these things. Don't lose sight, all the editors got together and agreed

:20:29.:20:34.

this was a breach of the editors code. The industry still wants to

:20:34.:20:37.

keep self-regulation and work the editors code. So obviously they

:20:37.:20:43.

want to put the best face on. The Sun changes its minds, within a 24

:20:43.:20:47.

hours, and Murdoch, who is upset how they're treated here. They've

:20:47.:20:52.

changed and raised the question now, can the editors code work in self-

:20:53.:20:56.

regulation? No it cannot Why would you break rank when the industry is

:20:56.:21:02.

over trouble over an issue like this? Can I just say, that that is

:21:02.:21:08.

the biggest load of garbage I have heard in a long time. You come from

:21:08.:21:12.

the News of the World, God blimey. What you have is here, a news

:21:12.:21:16.

reporter who says she's spoken to a number of editors. I spoken to

:21:16.:21:21.

those editors over the last two days, and let me tell you, they

:21:21.:21:24.

gave me a different version. You have a group of editors, who

:21:24.:21:28.

haven't run the story. Most of them didn't run the story because they

:21:28.:21:34.

were told note to. As indeed the sup was by the xeef executive.

:21:34.:21:37.

These journalists all champing at the bit, and all in the bidding for

:21:37.:21:40.

the pictures, but the decision came from on high, because of Leveson,

:21:40.:21:49.

they should not do it. You're on high as well, Murdoch. Let's just

:21:49.:21:54.

cut to the chase, our reporter talked to people, saying you have

:21:54.:21:58.

done Leveson's job for them. I say you, News International, because

:21:58.:22:04.

you made it easy for him This is leaf Leveson's night mare, because

:22:04.:22:08.

how can you castigate newspapers, that are simply following the rest

:22:08.:22:14.

of the world's media? It wasn't the Sun, the Mirror, the BBC the

:22:14.:22:16.

Telegraph who discovered these pictures, they were published,

:22:17.:22:21.

there will 200 million hits on the pictures around the world. Are you

:22:21.:22:24.

trying to intelligently tell me, they shouldn't be print on bits of

:22:25.:22:30.

paper in this country. It is farcical, and the idea you have an

:22:30.:22:33.

elderly politician trying to say that young people of today should

:22:33.:22:38.

not enjoy the privileges of, that he did of a free press is frankly

:22:38.:22:42.

insulting and stupid. Lord Prescott you can come back on that one,

:22:42.:22:48.

isn't it better to defend the big problems, than to worry about this

:22:48.:22:53.

one. We have Leveson to look at it. Is Neil saying ignore the law and

:22:54.:22:57.

whatever our law says privacy and public interest, as long as it is

:22:57.:23:01.

on the internet and they push it in the internet sometimes ahead of the

:23:01.:23:06.

story, it is our law cannot apply. It is hard, isn't it, to make an

:23:06.:23:09.

argument about privacy, when he clearly invited a lot of people he

:23:09.:23:13.

didn't know, into a public space? Well, I mean, that sounds silly to

:23:13.:23:18.

me, but it happened. The editors code, which the editors agreed,

:23:18.:23:24.

presumably, Neil should be aware of it, you cannot without consent

:23:24.:23:27.

print a picture, without the private circumstances. That isn't

:23:27.:23:32.

true. It is untrue, that's not what the code says. Tifplt does. Read

:23:32.:23:38.

the code. I've read the code. not what it says. It is use useless

:23:38.:23:41.

in controlling you guys, and everybody accepted we have to

:23:41.:23:44.

change it. Because you people in the News of the World and Murdoch,

:23:45.:23:51.

didn't care a damn about the law. If you were now waveed goodbye to

:23:51.:23:56.

self-regulation over over a case like this, would it be a waste?

:23:56.:24:03.

Please, let's be sensible. Around the world, the British press have

:24:03.:24:08.

followed, a story that went around the world. This is what Leveson has

:24:08.:24:12.

stood there and said. So everyone had seen it. What's the point of

:24:12.:24:18.

coming in there so late? So the BBC are suggesting along with elderly

:24:18.:24:22.

Labour politicians that we should now cens sore the press S that

:24:22.:24:29.

where you're coming from? This is ageism. Why did the Sun change its

:24:29.:24:38.

mind tell us that? Because Rupert Murdoch realised how Murdoch was

:24:38.:24:42.

the one who gave instruction, the man before our courts and inquiries.

:24:42.:24:49.

For God sake. Thank you very much. There are thierd American cyclist

:24:49.:24:54.

has been striped of the seven titles, banned from competitive

:24:54.:25:01.

cycling for life, the OCDA. The cyclist declares his innocence but

:25:01.:25:07.

weary of fighting the allegations. Allegations he has been fighting

:25:07.:25:12.

for years. Lance Armstrong's never failed an official drugs test we

:25:12.:25:17.

know off, except when he was cleared in '99. The evidence

:25:17.:25:22.

against him has yet to be published. But it may be the testimony of

:25:22.:25:27.

other cyclists, and fresh examination of old samples. US

:25:27.:25:32.

doping authorities of course say it is them who have the authority and

:25:32.:25:36.

so does the sports governing body who have yet to comment and see the

:25:36.:25:40.

evidence. The anti-doping boss, described that as the fox guarding

:25:40.:25:49.

the hen house. It is not clear the US za, can clear, there's eight

:25:49.:25:54.

year of statistics, only two of the titles fall within that window.

:25:54.:25:58.

And will the runners up to Armstrong inherit his titles? Well,

:25:58.:26:02.

probably not. Apart from anything else, some of the cyclists have

:26:02.:26:06.

also been banned for doping, it looks like there are no winners

:26:06.:26:12.

here. Well, Andy Parkinson, Chief Executive of UK anti-doping, is

:26:12.:26:16.

here. Are you surprised he pulled out of the fight? I am somewhat

:26:16.:26:20.

surprised. If I was a clean athlete, what I would want to do, is test

:26:20.:26:23.

the evidence put against me. And obviously, as of today, that's not

:26:23.:26:27.

going to happen. But he says, he's innocent and taken numerous tests,

:26:27.:26:32.

nothing has actually been found, there's about no evidence against

:26:32.:26:36.

him. If he says he's weary, you'd have sympathy wouldn't you? Yeah, I

:26:36.:26:41.

can see that argument. I think the flip side of that, is gone are the

:26:41.:26:44.

days when anti-doping authorities relied on positive tests. We rely

:26:44.:26:48.

on a multitude of different evidence we package up. And the

:26:48.:26:54.

United States authoritys have said they've got overwhelming evidence,

:26:54.:26:58.

from eyewitness statements that, corob rate doping. It can't be

:26:58.:27:01.

enough to take eyewitness statements when you have scientific

:27:01.:27:05.

ways of proving or disapproving can it? It is a balance. What you

:27:05.:27:09.

ideally have a positive test, because it is simple to prosecute.

:27:09.:27:13.

But, in the criminal justice system, you rely on eyewitness statements

:27:13.:27:19.

and test the evidence, and that was the purpose of the tribunal that

:27:19.:27:26.

Lens has opted out tf. The US za, asked a question to hand over the

:27:26.:27:30.

anti-doping case, they say it is like a fox guarding the hen house,

:27:30.:27:35.

so essentially what the authorities, are part of the problem? What the

:27:35.:27:38.

United States authorities said is we have the evidence, we've got

:27:38.:27:42.

joust diction to prosecute, we don't need you the cycling

:27:42.:27:46.

federation, and also, we have to bear in mind there's a wider

:27:46.:27:52.

conspiracy case going on, and the cycling federation has an appeal of

:27:52.:27:57.

any result of that. Do you think they're part of the problem?

:27:57.:28:02.

don't know. And what we haven't seen is that evidence tested

:28:02.:28:06.

because Mr Armstrong has withdrawn from the case. When you take, into

:28:06.:28:10.

account the idea you can't even hand those titles, to the sort of

:28:10.:28:13.

next in line, necessarily, because there are doping problems, all over

:28:13.:28:20.

the place, I mean, what a murky period, potentially, for cycling,

:28:20.:28:25.

that whole time was? Yeah it is probable matic, I have to say, the

:28:25.:28:30.

redistribution of those titles. But, it was murky. The late 90s, was a

:28:30.:28:34.

very difficult time for cycling. Can we not trust any of the tests

:28:34.:28:39.

that are being done? What we can do is trust the, that at the time the

:28:39.:28:46.

test was taken with the substances we were able to analyse this were

:28:46.:28:51.

negative tests. What we cannot say is negative test means no doping.

:28:51.:28:57.

We had the same example around the Olympic Games. The only people who

:28:58.:29:01.

can tkpwrarn tee the performance sincere the athletes. If Lance

:29:01.:29:05.

Armstrong is not willing to clear his name, and he backed out, what

:29:05.:29:09.

happens, does that investigation go on without him, will you still

:29:09.:29:13.

bother to pursue that now? United States authorities, remember

:29:13.:29:17.

there's a conspiracy case of five other individuals, all based on the

:29:17.:29:25.

same evidence, so that case will continue. And, in tirms of the

:29:25.:29:29.

again public, we'll start to see the transparency once the hearings

:29:29.:29:34.

have been held. Thank you very much for coming in. We're going to bring

:29:34.:29:39.

you the front of the papers in a second. But I haven't got them. So

:29:39.:29:45.

second. But I haven't got them. So this will be interesting. Telegraph

:29:45.:29:49.

is first, minister signals Heathrow expansion, and the hen party

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surprised by lack of security to the Prince, that's the Vegas story

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there. The stiems, the Government sends in

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the Scouts to right hot spots. Scouts guides and police, to go

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into private hot spoots. The start of the countdown to the Paralympics

:30:07.:30:17.
:30:17.:30:17.

Independent, GCSE row, Michael Gove threatened with legal action over

:30:17.:30:23.

the C/ D boundary, we had last night. And Charles summons Harry

:30:23.:30:31.

for crisis talks. A heart to heart talk. The FT weekend, Greece has

:30:31.:30:36.

not been written off as Merkel welcomes Samaras to Berlin. That's

:30:36.:30:40.

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