23/08/2012 Newsnight


23/08/2012

With Emily Maitlis. GCSE pass rates have fallen for first time in 26 years. Are this year's students the victims of deliberate grade deflation? What are GCSEs today really worth?


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Tonight: Two decades of exam inflation ends - a revolution in

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England's classroom begins. GCSE results fall for the first time.

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Teachers cry foul. Somebody made a decision, I guess a political

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decision to alter the grade boundary. The can exam regulator

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say the exams are fair, we'll discuss how far the shakeup of

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education should go. Is the Leveson ceasefire over? The last few

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minutes, News International says it will publish the nude pictures of

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Prince Harry tomorrow. We'll have live reaction. The South African

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struggle for workers,' freedoms goes on, as the country remembers

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the shootings that killed 44. TRANSLATION: Living here with my

:01:06.:01:12.

husband was better. Now, I don't know how will I cope without my

:01:12.:01:18.

husband. We ask if enough has changed, 18 years after apartheid

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ended. It is shocking and disgraceful. That is the biggest

:01:24.:01:34.
:01:34.:01:36.

massacre since then, and we're ashamed to be South Africans.

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good evening. The Education Secretary, thinks GCSE grade

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inflation is bad. Exam grades deflate for the first time in two

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decades. What, the exam question might have read is the connection

:01:48.:01:52.

between the two statements? This afternoon, Michael Gove denied he

:01:52.:01:55.

put political pressure on the exam boards and the head of the

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independent regulator, Ofqual backed him up. Why then are schools

:01:59.:02:04.

across the country voicing the same message of anguish, the grades are

:02:04.:02:08.

marked down as a result of political manipulation, or was the

:02:08.:02:18.
:02:18.:02:26.

entire school of 2012 enept or # It's magic #

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. Since the GCSE came in, in the late 80s, grades had been going

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But today, the morning the music stopped. Sheffield is one of

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England's divided cities when it comes to wealth and education.

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David Bows is this charge of two different schools. Both becoming

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academies, results improved this year, but there was a sour edge.

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is depressing, that all of that hard work has gone in, and for some

:03:05.:03:09.

youngsters, that critical grade, a C grade has just not been achieved,

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not through dint of their work and application, but because somebody

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made a decision, I guess a political decision, to alter the

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grade boundary. This is tap ton, the school he led in an of fluent

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area, it has the best results in the city. This year's is not what

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they hoped for. English is down. got passness everything, but I got

:03:35.:03:44.

a D English, so toif retake it next year. It is annoying that, Philip

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has A stars, Bs and C in English literature, and we have predicted

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him for C in English language and we know he passed with a C on the

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written component but the control assessment, speaking and listening,

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he has been graded down, so the overall grade is now a D, which is,

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annoying, I think, is what we both say. The complaint from tap ton is

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a common one, after years of grades going up, the regulator, off quell,

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- Ofqual, said if grades rose, it would have to be compared. They

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said "we are confident that standards have been maintained and

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that the grades awarded are right. The performance required to achieve

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each grade is the same as last year". The Education Secretary,

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said he played no role. decision whether or not particular

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marks should be awarded and particular grades should be awarded

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is a matter for exam boards. I don't interfere, or put pressure on

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the regulator, I make it clear to the regulator, it is important to

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maintain standards, and how that's done is a decision for the

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regulator and exam boards and I like previous secretaries of state,

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properly, leave it to them. That's not the way it looks to teachers

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here, they say pupils need more marks for the same grades.

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submitted a classroom based element of the course, assumeing it would

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achieve a certain level of grades, so for example, a student who we

:05:25.:05:31.

thought with a C grade candidate, we would put their mark in, agreed

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a markss, but they've depressed the boundaries, which means the student

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has now achieved a D overall. Celebrations, at ch school N less

:05:44.:05:49.

advantageed, bright side, with compared to last year, the grades

:05:49.:05:54.

are better. This year's results have come as a shock to many, after

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years of ever rising GCSE grades. It is not just a setback for the

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individual students, these results can can have serious itch cases for

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schools, and their future. After rising for years, the proportion of

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students getting five good GCSEs, including English and maths is

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likely to fall. Last year the Government said each school needed

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35% of the students to achieve this. Now, that's 40% and it is going to

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rise to 50%, by 2015. Chauser, just missed this year's target. Itch the

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proportion of passes and top grades, is going to be fairly stat

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particular, so, what does that mean, for schools like Chauser, do you

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think, which are trying to reach this floor target? Well, it simply

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means, if that's what they have decided to do, then we will know

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that. And we will do our utmost to make sure that every youngster is

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able to be successful. If this year is the model for the future, only a

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certain proportion of students will ever pass or get top grades.

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Familiar to anyone, who sat O- levels, foreign to today's students.

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Everyone should be able to get an A, if they wanted it. They might put

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effort in, if they get a C, they may be underachieving. Many will

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welcome the end of rising GCSE grades, saying values been restored

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to the key qualification. But some schools and teachers are asking

:07:35.:07:39.

questions about exactly how that has been achieved. Sancha Berg

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there, earlier I put some of the allegation toss Glenys Stacey Chief

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Executive of Ofqual. Yes. We've had a solid set of exam

:07:51.:07:55.

results today and students should be proud of their results, very

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proud indeed. Would you like to commiserate with the students who

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have been shocked with what they've seen today and fear political

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manipulation? There are a few things I'd like to say about that.

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The first thing is I represent Ofqual, we're independent regulator,

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established by Parliament. Parliament established Ofqual to

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make sure results wouldn't be politically manipulated and it is

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our job that standards are right and qualifications are right, and

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that's what you've seen happening this year and last year, at A-level

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and GCSE. What I'd say for students, that results have been remained

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steady. For most qualifications of GCSE results, they've stayed the

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same because qualifications have been comparable and the student mix

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has been the same. But we have seen, particular changes in GCSE science

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and in English. Wait a second, we've seen 24 years,

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consecretaryively of grade inflation, and now that is

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reversed? Has nothing happened? I say, there is an independent

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regulator now, looking closely to make sure results are right, and

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you're seeing our work Playout. We started this work in 2009, and 2010,

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and so on. What you're seeing at GCSE is a full set, if you like,

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the suite of GCSE results coming to fruition. You think these are the

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royalty grades? Right grades, absolutely. Did Michael Gove

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express his concern over grade inflation? Michael Gove expressed

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publicly his exasperation of grade inflation, I never had a

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conversation about him about it, I never raise it had with him and him

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with me. I'm sure he and others understand the regulator. Did he

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was the controversial with the colleagues? I'll say this one more

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time, Ofqual is an independent regulator, established by

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Parliament to make sure that standards are right, and what you

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are seeing is an independent regulator, doing the right job and

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making sure qualifications are right and grades are right and

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everyone, I hope will begin to have a confidence in that. Does it not

:10:05.:10:09.

strike you that Michael Gove says grades must go down, and grades do

:10:09.:10:14.

go down, and there's no link at all? I can't speak on behalf of the

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Education Secretary. But what I can do is speak on paf of Ofqual, what

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we have done is looked at the pattern of grades, over the last 20

:10:24.:10:30.

years, and we can see as can others, including researchers, it is hard

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to see adjust fiebl reason, for that continueed pattern. So, we've

:10:35.:10:39.

worked with assessment experts to understand that as well as we can,

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and develop the best approach to making sure we can ensure the right

:10:43.:10:47.

results, this year, last year and next year, and every year. What do

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you say to the schools they believe their grades have fallen off a

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cliff? What we're seeing in grades is that for most subjects, grades

:10:57.:11:01.

remaipd steady, in some suggests grades increased but we know

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reasons why. We're seeing particular changes at GCSE, science

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and English, and we know the reasons why, but those changes, are

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about 2% of grade C for science, and 1.5% of grade C for English.

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They are not Seismic shifts. some schools English is marked down

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by 10%. Is that nothing to do with the way it is marked? You are

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hearing some head teachers that's the case, but there are many

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schools result have improved and we're seeing evidence of that as

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well. We're seeing 1.5% shift overall for the reasons I've been

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complaining. But it will Playout differently, school by school,

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depending on their mix of students and readiness for the qul at the

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case and assessment. So it is the schools' fault? It is not as simple

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as that, as you know. What they are seeing is regulator is making sure

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that exam boards are consist nant the way they look at these and

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produce the right result and work with their examiners to set the

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best grade boundaries they've K on the evidence they can. Next year,

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will you be expecting more grade deinflation? Our job is to make

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sure standards are set and standards are maintained. That's

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what we've done. Last year, and this year, and that's what we'll

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certainly be doing next year. Talking to me earlier. Which ever

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way you look at it, and whatever actually happened, today's halting

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of the penen national grade inflation is welcome news foreign

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aeed case secretary, who stated he wanted the GCSE system reformed.

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What's the big plan for education of this Government? And are they

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with to realise it? Here is David Grossman.

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How do you explain the drop in the GCSE pass rates? Lovely to see you.

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Michael Gove refuse toss play the usual role of Education Secretary

:13:01.:13:04.

on results day. To be fair, he said he wouldn't.

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One of the things you won't get me doing is what previous Labour

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secretary did, looking at the results and saying what a good boy

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I am. These are risen, I'm doing the right thing, aren't I wonderful.

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The achievements of the children on the ground became debased. This

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chimes what some employers report. They may have the piece of paper,

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but when they're taken on and try to do tasks which require basic

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numeracy and literacy skills they just can't do that, and therefore,

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it is not very good for the employer. It is certainly not good

:13:43.:13:47.

for the young person. Here at the Department for Education, Michael

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Gove is attempting something of a revolution. Trying to smash what he

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calls "the cozy cartel made up of teachers, exam boards, education

:13:57.:14:02.

officials and yes, even in the past, ministers". Who together have all

:14:02.:14:07.

conspired to pretend that standards are rising faster than they

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actually are. We must now "be prepared for results to fall" he

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said. And fall they will, as changes to the way school

:14:15.:14:19.

achievement is measureed begin to kick in. For example Labour

:14:19.:14:24.

compared secondary schools on the basis of how many pupils passed

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five GCSEs A start to C grade or equivalent. It was those words or

:14:29.:14:32.

equivalent that critics say debauched the measure, more and

:14:32.:14:41.

more qul fae cases, such as horse care or nail technology or fish

:14:41.:14:45.

husbandry were equivalent to multiple GCSE, despite the fact

:14:45.:14:49.

employers saw them nothing of the kind. To many schools they were an

:14:49.:14:53.

easy route up the league tables. Michael Gove has slashed the number

:14:53.:14:57.

of the so-called, equivalent courses, from well over 3,000 to a

:14:57.:15:03.

few more than 100. In their place, put a far tougher measure of school

:15:03.:15:07.

attainment, one that Mr Gove says will reward schools that encourage

:15:07.:15:15.

students to take the subjects that both employers and universitys,

:15:15.:15:20.

value. It is called the English baccalaureate, it is a measure of

:15:20.:15:25.

how many students get GCSE grade C or better, in the academic core

:15:25.:15:29.

subjects. They need English, mathematics, history or George fee,

:15:29.:15:39.
:15:39.:15:43.

Another big change is in schools schools' inspection. Here is Sir

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Michael Wiltshire. He changed the regime. No longer with the third of

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four grades be called "satisfactory". Instayed it will

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said "requires improvement. Sir Michael ditched the 21 inspection

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criteria, that included such categories, whether a schools

:16:03.:16:06.

provision met local employment needs or contributed to community

:16:06.:16:10.

cohesion, and instead, schools will now be measureed on just four

:16:10.:16:15.

categories, achievement, teaching, leader, and behaviour. Michael Gove

:16:15.:16:21.

has taken steps to end what he calls "cull fewer of competitive

:16:21.:16:25.

dumbing down". The schools want to get as many pupils through the

:16:25.:16:30.

exams and hunt out the easiest exam boards. The exam boards need for

:16:30.:16:35.

their profits, to attract as many schools to their exams as possible

:16:35.:16:41.

and so, offer easier and easier exams. It is he says, a race for

:16:41.:16:47.

the bottom. So much so he is seriously considering scrapping

:16:47.:16:51.

GCSEs altogether and their replacement, the Mayor of London

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says, we should call them Gove levels. Joining me to discuss this

:16:56.:17:01.

S Lisa Freedman who runs a schools advisory service, and whose son got

:17:01.:17:07.

the results today. Joan McVittie, President of Association of School

:17:08.:17:15.

and College Leaders, wood side school, described by Gove as one of

:17:15.:17:19.

his favourites, Tony Ryan and Rachel Wolf former adviser to

:17:19.:17:23.

Michael Gove. Very nice of you all to come in.

:17:23.:17:27.

Thanks for joining us. Joan, does your school feel like one of

:17:27.:17:30.

Michael Gove's favourites after what you've seen today. It didn't

:17:30.:17:38.

feel like it, for some of my students today, particularly on the

:17:38.:17:42.

C/ D boundary. Some students anticipated they would pick up a C,

:17:42.:17:47.

and didn't, ended up with a D. they wrong to anticipate the C? Had

:17:47.:17:51.

they had their expectations, unfairly raised? Not at all. The

:17:51.:17:57.

students could take the exam in January. And he could actually pull

:17:57.:18:01.

down their GCSE at that point. If they pulled it down at that point,

:18:01.:18:07.

they had a C grade. They took the same exam in January, and could

:18:07.:18:11.

leave pulling the grade until June, which some students did, and

:18:12.:18:17.

pulling down on the same figures, actually then achieved a lower

:18:17.:18:22.

grade. Same students, same exam, same time. Was your experience to

:18:22.:18:27.

that similar? Very similar. We dropped in English, by 11% on

:18:27.:18:32.

preDicks. And my English department, are one of the best I ever worked

:18:32.:18:38.

with. I trust their predictions. This year was not abnormal in terms

:18:38.:18:43.

of the quality you're teaching. we work to a system and don't

:18:43.:18:46.

arrange the system or organise it, we get the system, we work to it,

:18:47.:18:51.

and get the best results we can for the students. I have about 25

:18:51.:18:55.

students who expected to get a C grade today who didn't. Do you

:18:55.:19:00.

think your pupils this year were used as political pawns, or ended

:19:00.:19:07.

up as? It is hard to see why students across the country, and I

:19:07.:19:14.

think, probably, you're looking at 600 schools, maybe more, I had a

:19:14.:19:19.

controversial, pickaxeel is an improvement group with 25 schools,

:19:19.:19:23.

we know there's over 100 schools affected by this, this is 2,000

:19:23.:19:27.

students who expected C grades and were probably right to expect C

:19:27.:19:31.

grades who haven't got them now. This will affect their future. I

:19:31.:19:36.

have no problem with changing the system, but give us time to work

:19:36.:19:42.

with it, don't spring it on us. are an advocate of what Michael

:19:42.:19:47.

Gove is thinking about. What do you make of what you're hearing?

:19:47.:19:52.

don't know what happened this year, but the current examination system

:19:52.:19:56.

isn't working. We have to recognise one of the reasons we have an exam

:19:56.:20:01.

system is to distinguish between pupils. If you have a system where

:20:01.:20:06.

every year, higher and higher per cent at that stage of pupils are

:20:06.:20:09.

getting higher grades, and employers are distinguished between

:20:09.:20:14.

them, that's difficult. This is becoming unbelieveably tough labour

:20:14.:20:19.

market and incredibly competitive one. We're competing with people

:20:19.:20:23.

overseas, and whether or not we're giving the grades, they are coming

:20:23.:20:27.

out and saying they're not working they're not qualified, we have to

:20:27.:20:30.

change something. You don't know what happened this year? Tony and

:20:30.:20:35.

Joan are not disagreeing, with what your bigger point is. You don't

:20:35.:20:40.

know what happened this year? of us know what happened this year.

:20:40.:20:44.

Obviously we've heard from Ofqual, saying they're independent. I don't

:20:44.:20:48.

know, I don't know I don't work for the Government. In the long-term we

:20:48.:20:57.

have to change. We're talking about 11% drops, at Tony's school and

:20:57.:21:05.

we're talking about C/ D boundaries, which is confusing, do you not

:21:05.:21:09.

think none is deliberate? I don't know, I have not been involved in

:21:09.:21:15.

the system and it is wrong for me to comment. We recognise in the

:21:15.:21:20.

lormer term these things need to be fixed. I don't think there should

:21:20.:21:26.

be GCSE, I'm Canadian, my son spent all summer with his Canadian

:21:26.:21:31.

cousins of course were not sitting exams last year, wasting their time.

:21:31.:21:36.

Our school leaving age will rise, next year, and in two years' time,

:21:36.:21:41.

everybody will leave school or full time education, at the age of 18.

:21:41.:21:45.

Why we have four years of public exams, wasting public money,

:21:45.:21:49.

causing stress to children, to teachers, to schools, disruption,

:21:49.:21:54.

it is a completely lunatic system. I'm not going to embarrass you, but

:21:54.:21:59.

your son got Stella grades, is that a waste of time? From his point of

:21:59.:22:03.

view, I don't think they produce, first of all, he could have been,

:22:03.:22:08.

as he said to me, I spent the whole of my summer terms doing exams.

:22:08.:22:14.

would scrap the GCSE for what? don't see why you need an exam. The

:22:14.:22:19.

Canadianss, who perform better, do not have exams, in year 11. Why

:22:19.:22:24.

would you have exams in year 11. Would you be radical? I can give

:22:24.:22:29.

awe quick answer, this country there, are a huge number of schools,

:22:29.:22:33.

that run from 11-16, unless you have a measure at 16, as they

:22:33.:22:39.

believe those schools, then, really, children could go through, without

:22:39.:22:47.

making progress. Do you not believe teacher assessment is OK. Do you

:22:47.:22:53.

not believe your own teachers can make a legitimate and valid,

:22:53.:22:57.

external assessment, without the Government intervening. Absolutely,

:22:57.:23:01.

there is a portion of GCSE which they do their coursework, et cetera.

:23:02.:23:05.

But they need an external benchmark, otherwise they would not be picked

:23:05.:23:10.

up by employers. Is this a move away from the GCSE,

:23:10.:23:14.

towards an O-level or something of the nature. Is that where it is

:23:14.:23:19.

going? One of the interesting things we've seen with the Free

:23:19.:23:26.

Schools, a significant proportion are not doing GCSE. They're looking

:23:26.:23:29.

at partly because employers and parents are saying, they're

:23:29.:23:33.

increasingly, placing more value on alternative qualifications, because

:23:33.:23:39.

it is tougher and more rigorous, rather than putting kids that

:23:39.:23:43.

independent schools and people choose not doing, we have to make

:23:43.:23:49.

sure it is good for all communities. Essentially, you have to start

:23:49.:23:52.

differentiating a tough labour market for the people who are

:23:52.:23:57.

extremely capable and those cruiseing? I don't think any head

:23:57.:24:01.

teacher would argue with that. You can't have 4 years of grade

:24:01.:24:07.

inflation and keep going. There has to come a time, you cap it, and we

:24:07.:24:11.

want the creme de la creme to the top and get the A grades. This year

:24:11.:24:15.

a mistake has been made. If this leads to more schools put in a

:24:15.:24:20.

position, where they might be deemed as failing, that is turned

:24:20.:24:25.

into academy stayed tus or special measures concerns, is that such a

:24:25.:24:29.

bad sning Is it a bad thing that schools are put in that category,

:24:29.:24:33.

every school is seeking to improve. I don't think any school is not

:24:33.:24:37.

seeking to improve. My concern today is a mistake has been made

:24:37.:24:42.

there. Are 2,000, plus students across the country, and that

:24:42.:24:45.

mistake needs to be addressed. Moving forward is a different

:24:45.:24:50.

debate. It is these students I'm concerned about. It this year took

:24:50.:24:55.

a hit for wider, more important reform S that worth it? This is the

:24:55.:25:00.

start of a real, look at education, now we need to take a look at those

:25:00.:25:05.

schools that are close to failing or failing, and sort them out?

:25:05.:25:11.

agree, with proposals on rigour, no issues with that, and if we change

:25:11.:25:15.

the system, fine. But we need opportunity to work towards that,

:25:15.:25:19.

and ensure that children, are on a level playing field. The big issue,

:25:19.:25:24.

is if the outcome of this is we have more failing schools, I can

:25:24.:25:29.

tell you, there will be no head teachers or teachers who will want

:25:29.:25:33.

to be recruited in the schools. Any schools siting to the close 40%

:25:33.:25:41.

mark, you won't be able to recaut a head teacher. What about the sense,

:25:41.:25:46.

Michael Gove has a cozy flawed system, when you have uens,

:25:46.:25:51.

teachers, politicians all seeing grades rise, every year, search

:25:51.:25:56.

happy, nobody changes the system? do think the reason they've risen

:25:56.:26:00.

is because we have far better teachers, better qualifications, in

:26:00.:26:05.

terms of the training for the techchaers and children who are

:26:06.:26:08.

more motivated. We have to recognise that, that's what we've

:26:08.:26:13.

seen the changes over the years. Thank you all very much. Now the

:26:13.:26:16.

past few minutes, News International said it will publish

:26:16.:26:21.

the naked pictures of Prince Harry, in the Vegas hotel room, tomorrow.

:26:21.:26:25.

Most people will have checked them out on the internet by now, so it

:26:25.:26:30.

is deliberate message of come kind. But what, two fingers up to the

:26:30.:26:36.

Leveson Inquiry, or palace who tried to ban them, or boost

:26:36.:26:39.

circulation figures. The managing editor of the News International

:26:39.:26:43.

gave his reason for publishing the reasons? For us it is about the

:26:43.:26:47.

freedom of the press. This is about the ludicrous situation, where a

:26:47.:26:52.

picture can be seen by hundreds of millions of people around the world

:26:52.:26:57.

on the internet but can't be seen in the nation's favourite paper,

:26:57.:27:03.

read by 8 million people every day. That was the managing editor of the

:27:03.:27:09.

News of the World speaking earlier. We have Kelvin MacKenzie.

:27:10.:27:15.

And, we've Chris Black does Hurst from the independent. Kelvin,

:27:15.:27:20.

presumably, you would have done the same thing, would you? Funnily,

:27:20.:27:23.

enough, I would have done it yesterday not today. Why do you

:27:23.:27:28.

think he waited? I don't know, I should imagine, if-in- the end of

:27:28.:27:33.

the day, the picture like that, can't have been published without

:27:33.:27:38.

Rupert Murdoch getting involved. The issues are too large and

:27:38.:27:44.

controversial, and I salute Rupert for not being coward by effectively

:27:44.:27:49.

the establishment on this issue. Labour MP said, the Sun's made a

:27:49.:27:53.

grave mistake printing the pictures, wanted to know if they paid the

:27:53.:27:58.

pictures and questioned the public interest case. Do you think they

:27:58.:28:03.

paid the pictures? Well, I doubt whether they paid for the pictures

:28:03.:28:06.

myself, because all around the world, the pictures have been

:28:06.:28:13.

published. And they were just taken off the website. Fortunately,

:28:13.:28:17.

America is known as the land of the free, which is the opposite

:28:17.:28:21.

position of the UK uction where you're starting to get prime

:28:21.:28:26.

ministers, like Cameron, wheeling out judges like Leveson and

:28:26.:28:31.

Parliament, who want to gang up exclusively on newspapers, in the

:28:31.:28:37.

UK. Whereas readers in every other part of the world, and on every

:28:37.:28:41.

website in the world, including major news organisations like CNN

:28:41.:28:46.

have been published these pictures for the last 36 hours. It really is

:28:46.:28:51.

shocking. I'm unsure, why the establishment hate newspapers so

:28:51.:28:56.

much. But what I'd like to see is editors get off their knees, and

:28:56.:29:00.

start pushing back against the curtailments in what will

:29:00.:29:04.

eventually, I promise you, lead to the closure of newspapers. If

:29:04.:29:10.

Prince Harry with no clothes on N a Las Vagas hotel room, surrounded by

:29:11.:29:15.

one naked woman anyway and a load of other people, he met in a

:29:15.:29:19.

drinking striping game, it is not a story, then it is hard to know what

:29:19.:29:24.

is. And people should stop worrying about privacy and start worrying

:29:24.:29:29.

about what free speech will mean to the country, if the Leveson, and

:29:29.:29:36.

Camerons, have their way. You are on your knees,? I am on my knees,

:29:36.:29:41.

we've taken the decision from the very off we're not going to publish

:29:41.:29:44.

these pictures. They were taken in a private place, private party. We

:29:44.:29:48.

thought there was an issue of privacy, and that's where we are.

:29:48.:29:51.

guess you could say the Independent would always have taken that

:29:51.:29:56.

decision, and the Sun might always have taken the others. Kelvin is

:29:56.:30:00.

right to the respect if this isn't a tabloid newspaper story, then

:30:00.:30:05.

what is? He's right, yes, we are at the opposite ends of the spectrum,

:30:05.:30:08.

there's no question about that. What I say, is look, here is a

:30:08.:30:13.

young man, he's done nothing wrong, nothing illegal that we know of. He

:30:13.:30:17.

wasn't wearing a Nazi uniform, and not that shocking pictures,

:30:18.:30:23.

actually. He's with friends having a party, it's a private thing. He

:30:23.:30:28.

didn't think it was going to be photographed. He was doing what a

:30:28.:30:32.

lot of Sun readers do on stag parties and don't expect to be on

:30:32.:30:36.

the front page of the morning's papers. I haven't seen the

:30:36.:30:40.

editorial in the paper, but do you think there will be a moral, a

:30:40.:30:46.

judgment, being made by the Sun, do you dislike Harry, disapprove of

:30:46.:30:51.

this? No. They made it is quite clear, the managing director, made

:30:51.:30:59.

it clear, that the Sun, like probably 99.9% of this country,

:30:59.:31:04.

really likes Prince Harry. They don't give a damn about this kind

:31:04.:31:08.

of thing. He's basically the Boris Johnson of the Royal family and

:31:08.:31:13.

people enjoy his humour and like his party-loving. But getting a

:31:13.:31:17.

tackle out, in front of a rather surprised, I suspect, American

:31:17.:31:23.

guests who he never met before, actually I suspect crosses the line.

:31:23.:31:29.

I'm not trying to make a moral judgment, but, it is bizarre. He is

:31:30.:31:33.

a massively famous and powerful person, and on that basis it is a

:31:33.:31:36.

story. It is a story under all circumstances and one of the

:31:36.:31:42.

reasons why, the Independent isn't doing as well as the Sun is its

:31:42.:31:47.

decision not to publish pictures, not under your expert editorship.

:31:47.:31:51.

You know what it is like to lose popularity. If this loses the Sun a

:31:51.:32:00.

lot of popular readers, will it have been worth it? Well, I suspect

:32:01.:32:05.

that it certainly wornt have the Hillsborough, effect if that's the

:32:05.:32:09.

point you're making and it will abone-day wonder. Next week, it

:32:09.:32:16.

will be fish and chips, accept for a load of politically motivated MPs,

:32:16.:32:22.

who fancy appearing on Newsnight. There's no such thing as fish and

:32:22.:32:29.

chips, because everything stays on the internet. Would you expect the

:32:29.:32:36.

palace to treat this with rig gor, the press complaints at this point?

:32:36.:32:41.

They were saying please don't run these pictures. Do you think that's

:32:41.:32:45.

made it worse? I would have thought that's not the wiseest thing for

:32:45.:32:51.

them to have done, it haes made an issue of press versus the palace.

:32:51.:32:55.

One thing I disagree S because it is on the internet and people seen

:32:55.:32:59.

it, therefore we owe it to our readers to see it. What I say S

:32:59.:33:02.

there's a lot of material on the internet, that people can freely

:33:02.:33:08.

see, which no newspaper, not even the Sun, would ever dream of

:33:08.:33:11.

printing. That's a speechless argument. What would be your

:33:11.:33:17.

message then, to the Sun as it stands? Is that just about dying

:33:17.:33:21.

circulation figures? No they've made a mistake this morning. I'm

:33:21.:33:26.

puzzleed why, what's change fred today, from tomorrow, rather than

:33:26.:33:31.

this morning. The story hasn't advanced. What did happen, is they

:33:31.:33:38.

had an intern take her clothes off, she Z she was photographing one of

:33:38.:33:41.

their employees, and that was on the front page, I thought that was

:33:42.:33:46.

mocked up and tawdry, so, tomorrow, they've gone and published the real

:33:46.:33:51.

thing. It has to be about sales. It has to

:33:51.:33:57.

be, I suspect that rue port Murdoch got involved. He's in no mood what

:33:57.:34:01.

the establishment are saying. Labour MPs, are going to stop

:34:01.:34:06.

Murdoch, that's the last thing that will stop him right now. Not just

:34:06.:34:10.

Labour MPs, but is this a big two fingers up to Leveson do you think?

:34:10.:34:14.

I hope so. I certainly hope so, because it is

:34:14.:34:21.

about time somebody did. I find, Leveson, gut-churning, in most

:34:21.:34:26.

respects. I hated him when he said I hoped the Leveson effect wouldn't

:34:26.:34:32.

end with the end of his tribunal. And actually, I wish more people

:34:32.:34:38.

had stuck their fingers up to him, and I salute Rupert to do that.

:34:38.:34:44.

Even if a 27-year-old lad, who is having fun, not doing any harm,

:34:44.:34:50.

becomes the victim of that? Well, it is not unwitting victim. You

:34:50.:34:55.

know, he must realise, that with his rather important role as a

:34:55.:35:00.

Prince of our country, and he's number three on the throne, he has

:35:00.:35:04.

to carry various responsibilities with him, which I suspect a young

:35:04.:35:09.

producer on Newsnight wouldn't have. To find equivalence between him and

:35:09.:35:15.

the guy down on the Dough and Duck who has been extra two pints of

:35:15.:35:21.

strong bow is right. He knows when he walks warned bodyguards and when

:35:21.:35:29.

he gets performance at the Olympics, he knows, I would be grateful if he

:35:29.:35:34.

stopped getting his tackle out. ran out of time just at that moment.

:35:34.:35:39.

As South Africa mourned hits dead miners, victims of a crackdown of

:35:39.:35:44.

forces, after a industrial action, President Jacod Zuma set out terms

:35:44.:35:49.

for a judicial inquiry. It began as demand of wage increases for those

:35:49.:35:56.

doing deadly work, but now it is a turf war, simic of a country deeply

:35:56.:36:02.

ill at ease and request for workers freedoms, 18 years after apartheid.

:36:02.:36:12.
:36:12.:36:13.

After the killings and bitter recriminations, time to remember

:36:13.:36:18.

the dead. This morning, in an enormous

:36:18.:36:28.
:36:28.:36:28.

marquee, set up beside shacks, all sides came together at last.

:36:28.:36:35.

Nandipha Guniza lost her husband four weeks ago. Across the aisle,

:36:35.:36:39.

ANC minister, Collins Chabane whose committee on the tragedy organised

:36:39.:36:44.

this event. Here the minister of police, and the outspoken Bishop of

:36:44.:36:48.

preteara, who has been trying to broker an toned the strike, which a

:36:48.:36:52.

volatile situation which police and miners accrues each other of

:36:52.:36:57.

violence. Two policemen were among ten others killed, during a feud

:36:57.:37:02.

between rifle mining unions. Originally, there were to be two

:37:02.:37:06.

rival memorial services, one official event attended by the mine

:37:06.:37:09.

owners and Government and second service, organised by the striking

:37:09.:37:14.

miners themselves. The two sides have been brought together, after

:37:14.:37:17.

last-minute negotiations involving senior clergy. A rare and welcome

:37:17.:37:21.

sign of unity in a community bitterly divided since the killings

:37:21.:37:26.

here last week. This is where the 24 miners were killed, close to the

:37:26.:37:30.

service. They came, charging down from that

:37:30.:37:34.

rocky outcrop towards the police lines. What happened next was the

:37:34.:37:44.
:37:44.:37:46.

most bloodiest security operation, It's clear from the pictures that

:37:46.:37:50.

police opened fire with assault rifles, but it is hard tore tell

:37:50.:37:55.

whether the miners had guns and traditional weapons like machetes.

:37:55.:38:02.

Where in the world, have you seen people confronting the police.

:38:02.:38:06.

Remember, we lost policemen, a lot of people have been killed by the

:38:06.:38:10.

instruments. There's nothing traditional about the spear, when

:38:10.:38:16.

you are facing into your eyes. So, ANC the commission will

:38:16.:38:21.

revolutionise things, what went wrong, who was wrong, who was right.

:38:21.:38:27.

These are killings that shocked South Africa. Bishop of preteara

:38:27.:38:33.

and President of South African councils. It was the bloodiest

:38:33.:38:36.

operation since apartheid. What does it mean for South Africa?

:38:36.:38:44.

is shocking, and disgraceful. That is the biggest misker and we're all

:38:44.:38:50.

ashamed to be South Africans. Miners come to Marikana, in the

:38:50.:38:55.

platinum belt of the north west Province from all ofrt country and

:38:55.:38:59.

beyond, simply because there is work. Though there are complaints

:38:59.:39:04.

about conditions and wages. Rock drillers earn less than �100 a week,

:39:04.:39:09.

and are on strike because they want that tripleed. Nandipha Guniza came

:39:09.:39:14.

from the Eastern Cape, far from the south to follow her husband, a rock

:39:14.:39:19.

driller shot dead last week. She lives in one room W a young son and

:39:19.:39:26.

two week old baby. TRANSLATION: My husband was there

:39:26.:39:31.

and wanted a living wage. Because they were underpaid by the mines,

:39:31.:39:35.

and they are working through difficult conditions. What are you

:39:35.:39:40.

going to do now? TRANSLATION: Living here with my

:39:40.:39:46.

husband was better. Now, I don't know how will I cope without my

:39:46.:39:55.

husband. Because the only person that was next to me was my husband.

:39:55.:39:59.

Long minute say 4,000 people flif hostels, convert to single and

:39:59.:40:05.

double units. Thousands live in the informal settlements and are paid a

:40:05.:40:09.

housing allowance, for their rent. The conditions here are basic,

:40:09.:40:14.

puting it mildly. I was shown around the area, known as wonder

:40:14.:40:19.

cop, by Goodman Masiko one of the striking miners. Familys here, he

:40:19.:40:25.

said had just one room. Everything you cook here, living here, wash

:40:25.:40:30.

here. Sometimes, water is coming out. It is difficult. Very

:40:30.:40:34.

difficult. Sometimes you find seven people in one room. Maybe three,

:40:34.:40:43.

sometimes, two, with children. Depends on the situation. Rt Rev Dr

:40:43.:40:49.

Jo Seoka is quietly arranging meetings between the management and

:40:49.:40:52.

miners. He is sympathetic to the mineser problems. He is chairman of

:40:52.:40:55.

the benchmarks foundation, which monitors the living conditions of

:40:55.:41:04.

the mine workers. The conditions of miners have not changed much. In

:41:04.:41:10.

fact, there is evidence that living allowances are not efficient and

:41:10.:41:15.

the workers are living in appalling conditions. Appalling conditions?

:41:15.:41:22.

Yes. It is not different from the hostels, during the apartheid.

:41:22.:41:25.

Should the ANC be blamed for housing conditions on the mines?

:41:25.:41:29.

The ministers suggest the mine companies should be doing more.

:41:29.:41:34.

We'd like the mining houses, or any employer for that matter, to

:41:34.:41:40.

provide for facility, for the workers, where they can, and ensure

:41:40.:41:45.

they are a state, in maintaining better living standard. Can you put

:41:45.:41:53.

pressures on companies like long minute. We thr is no law, this is a

:41:53.:41:56.

lawful society. It is democratic. You cannot force anyone to do

:41:57.:42:02.

anything, which is unlawful. Unless we're changing our laws.

:42:02.:42:06.

killings ensure this will become far more than a dispute about mine

:42:06.:42:12.

wages. The ANC are in power for 18 years now. And are increasingly

:42:12.:42:18.

criticised for not delivering on jobs or public services. Its

:42:18.:42:26.

leaders oven - often seen as elite. How big a crisis is this for the

:42:26.:42:29.

ANC. The ANC reputation has been damaged by the strike and not just

:42:29.:42:35.

because of the killings. The strike is led by the break away, AMC union,

:42:35.:42:41.

which accused the established, MUNN close to the ANC and mine owners

:42:41.:42:47.

and getting support at Americaa. I'm supporting, AMCU, because these

:42:47.:42:53.

are the ones that are staying with us. People are saying the MUN is

:42:53.:43:00.

close to the ANC. Do you think this is making the people less scene on

:43:00.:43:05.

the ANC? It is, people don't trust ANC any more because of the these

:43:05.:43:13.

things. If MUM is having shares in the company, and ANC is the part of

:43:13.:43:18.

the MUC, and they told the police to come and shoot at us. Another

:43:18.:43:23.

problem the ANC face is the firebrand, Julius Malema once

:43:23.:43:28.

leader of the ANC youth league but now expelled from the party. He

:43:28.:43:34.

called from President Zuma to resign and mines to be nationalised.

:43:34.:43:39.

When we met him he was with the police station, laying charges of

:43:39.:43:43.

the police for the killings. I have the those people had weapons, and

:43:43.:43:47.

therefore they were dangerous, it is not true. You must look at Mr

:43:47.:43:52.

President Zuma's pictures, every time he is at home, when he gets

:43:52.:43:59.

married all the time he careies the same weapons, as the workers. Is he

:43:59.:44:03.

carrying dangerous weapons during wedings. That's not true. There is

:44:03.:44:07.

nothing dangerous about the weapons sthoox the police will say,

:44:07.:44:14.

presumably the workers were charactering at them? There was an

:44:14.:44:20.

argument a worker was the first one to shoot. Let's say there was such

:44:20.:44:23.

a worker, highly trained police should have the capacity to

:44:23.:44:29.

identify that worker, amongst the workers. Isolate him and take him

:44:29.:44:33.

on. The ANC are clearly aware of the potential damage caused by the

:44:33.:44:36.

strike and killings. President Zuma who faces re-election as party

:44:36.:44:41.

leader at the end of the year, visited the mine, there's to be an

:44:41.:44:44.

interministerial and judicial inquiry. It was announced today it

:44:44.:44:49.

will be looking at the role of long minute, rival unions and police.

:44:49.:44:52.

You're confident the ANC hasn't lost backing because of this?

:44:52.:44:57.

don't think so. But, obviously, in elections you can only judge that

:44:57.:45:02.

by the elections, not even by service. By elections themselves.

:45:02.:45:12.
:45:12.:45:12.

But the mop is not so confident. He argues the strike and killings are

:45:12.:45:17.

symptomatic of South Africa. have greed which led to serious

:45:17.:45:22.

challenge of corruption. Greed from the management, greed from whom?

:45:22.:45:29.

Management, they want to make more money. And give very little to the

:45:29.:45:34.

workers. Our politicians are not doing as much as they promised to

:45:34.:45:40.

do. They're saying that the poor must be looked of. Wealth must be

:45:40.:45:45.

shared. But that's not what is happening. How serious could this

:45:45.:45:49.

be become if the problem is not addressed? It could lead to

:45:49.:45:54.

conflict. It could lead the poor rising up against the rich. It is

:45:54.:45:57.

an extraordinary, and frightening week for Marikana mine and South

:45:57.:46:02.

Africa. It started with a killings at this rocky outcrop, and ended

:46:02.:46:08.

with soul-searching over problems that affect the entire country.

:46:08.:46:12.

Well, a look at tomorrow's front pages. One in particular, making

:46:12.:46:17.

pages. One in particular, making headlines all on its own. The Sun.

:46:17.:46:23.

BBC decide not to show the picture. Op the mirror's front page, Harry

:46:23.:46:28.

with clothes on, Charles tears a strip off Harry as the Vegas girl

:46:28.:46:36.

reveals wild party secrets. Elizabeth Murdoch is on the front

:46:36.:46:42.

of the guardian, she rounds on her brother which spoke a couple of

:46:42.:46:52.
:46:52.:47:21.

years ago, and praises the BBC. Rain on the menu for this weekend.

:47:21.:47:24.

Disappointing for many, but sunshine at times. We start Friday

:47:25.:47:29.

with a mixture. Showers pushing up across parts of England and

:47:30.:47:36.

Scotland. In between, some drier and brighter

:47:36.:47:44.

spells, across a chunk of England. East Anglia and far south-east.

:47:44.:47:49.

Clouds looming close to London, wet weather sweeping in, much of Wales,

:47:49.:47:53.

might clear up across Devon and Cornwall, but don't bank on that

:47:53.:47:57.

one. Thunder mixed in with this heavy rain and gusty winds. The wet

:47:57.:48:02.

weather will be pushing up through the Irish Sea, knockingen a the

:48:02.:48:10.

door of County Down. Scotland is not shaping up too badly. One or

:48:10.:48:14.

two showers, most places will be reasonably dry and bright.

:48:14.:48:19.

Looking into Saturday, disturbed spell of weather, just for all of

:48:19.:48:23.

us. Heavy showers, prolonged rain, and across southern counties, gusty

:48:23.:48:28.

winds, particularly along the south coast. These could cause problems

:48:28.:48:33.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Emily Maitlis. GCSE pass rates have fallen for first time in 26 years. Are this year's students the victims of deliberate grade deflation? And what are GCSEs today really worth?


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