30/08/2012 Newsnight


30/08/2012

Why did London Met lose its licence to host non-EU students? Who will be prosecuted for the Murakami shootings? And how small can drones get? With Gavin Esler.


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Transcript


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Tonight, an immigration crackdown on British universities over

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possibly bogus students. London Metropolitan's mishandling of the

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rules, means more than 2,000 non-EU students could be thrown out of the

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country in two months. Is this measure a proportionate Government

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response, or an attack on one of Britain's biggest export industries.

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There is danger by choosing a single target of overall net

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migration, the Government has chosen a target they will never hit,

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and in trying to hit it they will do a lot of damage to the economy

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and the university sector. We will discuss with educationalists, and

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business alum nigh. The Mark of Caisn massacre, after South African

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security forces shot dead 34 striking miners, the authorities

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have brought charges, but against the miners themselves. Coming to

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the skies and studios near you, drones of all shapes and sizes,

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like this little monster, what are they looking at and why? With a

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huge increase in the amount of private companies, and institutions,

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able to use drones over our heads, who is going to stop people from

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watching us on our own property, and even in our own homes. There is

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no doubt that getting tough on illegal immigrants, including bogus

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students, is a very popular move for any British Government in

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recent years. But is revoking the license of the Metropolitan

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University to have foreign students the right way to proceed.

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Universities should check all classes and make sure all students

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have the right to be here in the first place, but with 2,000

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students facing a ticket home, is this the right response. And how do

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we encourage foreign students to come here and pay university fees.

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The English language is imbecile. Why do you say that? Because, all

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the people who say they speak English, they speak with accents so

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different. There was a time, many decades ago, when we thought

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teaching foreigners the vagaries of English, could only be a good thing.

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But in multiethnic London, 80 years on, we are not always so sure.

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London Metropolitan University, which attract as high number of

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students from abroad, has been told it can no longer accept them. The

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2,500 already here will be deported, unless another college will take

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them on. It is very difficult, because I'm to submit my thesis

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tomorrow. Only to be told that the license has been revoked, and that

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I have to leave the country within 60 days. That is very unfortunate.

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Today, students were protesting in Downing Street at the Government's

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decision to punish their university. After the UK Border Agency found

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many foreign students there weren't turning up to lectures, couldn't

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speak enough English, or didn't have permission to stay in Britain.

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But legitimate students will be affected too. After spending

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thousands of pounds with this university and he they came all the

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way from their home countries, their family had dreams, they had

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dreams, their friends there had dreams for these students, so

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everything is going in vain now. London Metropolitan, may be the

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first university to be tarted in this way, but the Government is

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sending out a clear warning to others. Rooting out bogus students

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helps reduce the number of foreigners studying in the UK. And

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that, for the Government, is one of the best ways of bringing down

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overall immigration, one of its key commitments. Of the 566,000 people

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estimated to have migrated to the UK in the year to December 2011,

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about 2323,000, or 41% came to -- 2 32,000, or 41%, came to study. The

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number of non-EU visas has increased dramatically. Now, in the

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last year, there has been a big drop of 21% in the number of

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student visas granted. But will that really help the Government

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achieve its aims? Overseas students are the biggest single category of

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immigration. But they are also very different from other types, they

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are much less likely to stay here. If you ask people what they really

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understand by immigration, a student who comes here for a year

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or two and then goes home isn't what they are worried about. There

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is a real danger by choosing a single target of overall net

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migration, which includes students as well as people who come here to

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work and family and everything else, the Government has ended up

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choosing a tart they will never hit, and in trying to hit it they will

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do a lot of damage to the economy and the university sector.

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official figures show that 20% of students do stay on illegally,

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changing their status by marrying, or finding work. Students form by

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far the largest proportion of those who stay on here for long-term

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migration in one form or another. There is something like half a

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million, including student visitors, who come here each year. If 20% of

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those stay on beyond five years, that makes a lot of people. We also

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know that there are those who stay on illegally. So it's, without

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question, the number of students who become long-term immigrants is

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significant, and absolutely right that the Government does something

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about it. The Government's now removed the automatic right for

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students to stay on and seek work after their courses. But

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immigration is falling only very slowly. Net migration in the year

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to December 2010, was 25 2,000. Today we learned that figure

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dropped to 216,000 the following year. A fall of 36,000. But the

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Government still is a long way from achieving its target of a maximum

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of 100,000 by 2015. But even if it can succeed, isn't it odd to reduce

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overseas student numbers when Britain is also trying to sell the

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benefits of our education system. Overseas students contribute

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billions of pounds of fees to the university sector at a time when

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universities are under pressure, because of the public spending cuts,

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which we all know are inevitable. They also spend money in the

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communities where they stay. The total estimates of the economic

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benefit, not just the fees, but the money they spend, the Government's

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own estimates, in 2011, were they contribute well over �10 billion.

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Surely that won't be affected by removing bogus students? They admit

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the decision they have made today will affect genuine students and

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those who aren't genuine, they don't know which. They think it

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will be useful to have a symbol of how tough they are being. That is

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understandable from a domestic political point of view, that

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signal is interpreted differently in the countries where people are

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thinking about coming to the UK or another country to study. Here in

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North London, certainly, the welcome students once experienced

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has run cold. We have our guests here. A former student of

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university in London, and creator of Cobra beer.

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And my other guests. Were you aware of problems when you were teaching

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there? There are always student who is didn't show at all, or who came

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infrequently. I was pretty much told by the programme director to

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assume that students that didn't show up at all hadn't entered the

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country, or there was nothing you could do about students not

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attending very much. Often for issues of work. Did you think that

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maybe they had entered the country, but weren't attending lessons

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because they were bogus students? There didn't seem to be any way of

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checking it or any will to check it. The UK Border Agency has increased

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the requirements since then. But obviously, London Metropolitan,

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hasn't met those requirements. That is why the current situation is as

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it is. But I don't think it is just London Metropolitan University, my

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experience elsewhere in other London universities was similar.

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that note, we will move on, was it your sense that these students,

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whether they turned up or not, had paid. In other words, the

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university got the money, and was therefore reasonably happy whether

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they turned up or not? You only had to pay the first part of it. To be

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on the books. In other words, I suppose, what we're hearing there

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is, that it is possible to abuse the system, it is possible to come

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in. I wonder whether you feel it is kind of unfair for 2,000 students,

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many of whom are here, presumably, perfectly legally, and in the

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middle of degree courses, to have their whole future wrecked on this?

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We have gone beyond the state of it might be possible, we have a

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serious problem here. We have two issues, firstly, how the rules

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operate against those who are genuine students is unsatisfactory,

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and unacceptable. Clearly the Government needs to change that.

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The idea that there are people who are participating in courses, who

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are progressing their degrees, or tickets already bought to come here

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for next year, and going to be refused, is not acceptable. But,

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likewise, this university, and maybe, other universities, have got

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some answering to. Do the spotlight shouldn't just be what the

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Government is up to, it should be up to what the universities are

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doing. This university must have done more damage to the position of

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British universities seeking overseas students than any other

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action you could imagine. We z I should make clear, we did ask the

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Government if they would like to attend. Rather like some of your

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students, they decided not to bother. Do you think London Met is

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toxic and it is a real problem for the whole system. Why would anyone

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want to go there from abroad? don't recognise the account that

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was given by Linda, and she was decribing a situation which pre-

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dated some quite significant changes to the Border Agency rules.

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Now the standards are extremely high. Not at London Met, because

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they didn't enforce it? I can't comment on the circumstances, we

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simply do not know what was going on there. Are you saying there is

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no other university in this country, where there may be quite a lot of

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bogus students who don't turn up for lectures, and just come here as

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immigrants? There is no suggestion of universities taking on bogus

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students. At Universities UK, we have made it clear we want to work

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with the Government to eliminate any problems in the system. If

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there are bogus students, they have to leave. What is the problem

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today? We simply don't know the facts as to what was happening in

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London Metropolitan Police university, and the circumstances

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that -- London Metropolitan, and the circumstances that Linda

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outlined pre-dates this issues today. What happened yesterday and

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today, is Government's decision has impacted on large numbers of

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completely legitimate, genuine international students, that is

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what is so distressing. Do you agree with a bit of that, it is

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clearly unfair to some of these students? I think Nicola is

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wriggling here, I think the universities have a case to answer.

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The actions of this university were probably born, out when more

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detailed work is done from the sample taken. If something like a

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quarter of the students are actually illegals, then there is a

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real case to answer, and if I was a student living abroad, thinking

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where I would want my children to come, I certainly wouldn't want

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them to come to university that is staffed by large nufpls of students

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breaking the law to -- numbers of students breaking the law to be

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here. I total low agree, if there are students -- totally agree, if

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there illegitimate students then that is something we need to do

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something about it. What are the universities going to do to put

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their house in order? You could have been one of these guys,

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couldn't you? You were at London Met? I was legally here. Some of

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these are legally here? I was here, I spent a year at what is now

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London Metropolitan University, I then graduated in law at Cambridge

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University, three generations of my family have been educated in

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Britain, my grandmother, my mother, and now me. This is something that

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goes along the reputation of this country having the finest higher

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education in the world, alongside the United States. We spend a

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fraction of what the United States spends on higher education. This

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Government is decimating higher education in this country. First

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they pulled the funding to the universities. Then they triple the

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fees for the domestic student, and now they are hitting the

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international students as well. Who make up 10% of your students.

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Academics at Oxford and Cambridge, 30% are foreign. Immigration cap

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that is are cruel, immigration figure that is includes students.

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We all know that students, on the whole, the vast majority, return to

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their countries. We don't know that. We know that as an absolute fact.

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Well over 80% of the students return to their countries. The

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challenge here is the UK Border Agency are the people who don't

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know how many illegal immigrants are in this country. That figure

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comes from the Home Office survey, what that Home Office survey showed,

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we know that 20% do go home. They couldn't account for. 20%? 20%,

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they have proof, they do not know, that survey shows, they do not know

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what happens to the other 80%. They may all go. They don't know the

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number of illegal immigrants. have argued about immigration

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figures for years, without getting to the point. The point tonight,

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presumably, is somebody like this, an entrepeneur, good for this

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country, is being quick kicked out with all the others. It is a waste

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the opportunity and for future generations? What a way to do it in

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a way, where you have been sending out a signal. I have been the

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founding chairman of the UK Business Council, in India they are

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saying, Britain doesn't want us. The number of Indians applying to

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British universities is plummeting. The perception is becoming a

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reality. That is terrible for universities isn't it?

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concerned with the very interrelated crossover with labour

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market issues. This is students coming only to work, working while

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they are here, and post graduate work. These have big effects on the

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labour market. This should be considered in the whole thing.

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you think the message, mentioned there, is actually going to get

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through, that people in India will say, no matter what my father,

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grandfather or mother did, I won't go there, I won't risk it? We are

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observing that. There are drops in Indian post graduate students

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wanting to study science and engineering, those numbers are

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going down. We are very concerned about this. If I can pick up on the

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point that international students are taking away jobs. There is no

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evidence that is actually happening. All the evidence suggests that

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international students bring far more to this country, and there has

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been a recent study, for example, by Oxford Economics, looking at the

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contribution international students have made at the University of

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Exeter. They bring far more and create more jobs than they take

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away. That is the evidence. Nicola, what we surely want is a

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policy where we welcome people who legitimately come to this country

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to pursue their studies, and abide by the rules. What we do not want,

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surely, is to find ourselves in a position, where we are defending a

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university like this, that already has a track record. Under the

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labour Government they had to pay back �37 million, because they

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claimed for students they didn't actually have. So this is tax-

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payers' money, this is part of the family of universities, that is

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actually taking our image abroad and behaving like this. That is the

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past, over the last three years, under the new Vice Chancellor, they

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have made huge steps, and they will now be short of �30 million. I was

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Chancellor, I was Chancellor of what is now West London University,

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I was board of the governors for five years, and Vice Chancellor for

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five years, I know how much our foreign students help with the

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funding of the university. There is so many benefits. �8 billion.

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not disputing any of that. We have had a university that took tax-

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payers' money to the tune of �37 million, by claiming to have

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students they didn't have. That is the past history. That is nothing

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to do with this debate. We are now into today's evidence, about the

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same university has real problems over bogus students This is the

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problem about this debate. There is so many confusing arguments brought

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into the mix. It is confusing, it is confusing the public, it is

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confusing everyone. That is historical, and although I don't

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disagree with anything you have just said about the history, it is

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completely irrelevant to our discussion today. We want to hear

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everybody. Nicola is absolutely right. We are competing in the

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world, we are competing with the United States, we are competing

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with Canada, we are competing with Australia in specific terms, they

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do not, they categorise students under a separate immigration,

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temporary immigration. Do you agree with that? Absolutely, if you ask

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David Willetts if we should put them in a separate category. Some

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nay be staying on the whole or not, but the Government would solve the

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problem. Is this a problem caused by setting these targets, do you

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think? No, the targets have been set, and they were overwhelmingably

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supported by voters of all parties. What we have here -- overwhelmingly

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supported by voters of all parties. We have a problem of taking our

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image abroad, and parents signing up for that university and children

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to come here, and look at how the university behaves. The image now

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is Britain doesn't want foreign students, weed need them for the

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economy. I think it is a hopeless argument, this. Why not have the EU

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India-free trade agreement out in the open. We are trying. Why not

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the labour issues out. That is another issue. The only thing India

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is asking for labour entry. We will be looking at control of the skies

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soon. The Newsnight drone is still keeping an eye out on proceedings.

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There it is, in all its glory. Tonight we are finding out how

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variations on the drones used to attack hideouts on the Taliban in

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Pakistan and Afghanistan are coming to this country, indeed this very

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studio. Now, as that demented midge dies a

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death over there. Before all, that in the days of apartheid, before

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South Africa became a democracy, the doctrine of common purpose,

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gave people the means to lock up people it considered to be

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troublemakers. Now that very same law is being used to charge the 270

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miners part of a Marikana mine demonstration. At which police

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killed 34 of their number. Charging the striking miners in connection

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with the deaths of men shot by the police, is stirring up a political

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storm in South Africa. Set the scene for us, what was all

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this about initially? The miners have been on strike since 10 if of

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August, looking for a tripping -- August 10th, looking for a tripling

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of their wages. This dispute has become increasingly violent. There

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was a series of incidents in which ten people were killed, including

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two policemen, allegedly by striking miners. Two weeks ago

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today, the incident you mentioned, in which 34 striking miners were

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killed by the police. They gathered on top of a rock, they were

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brandishing called traditional weapons, spheres and macheties,

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they came charging down towards the police lines, the police opened

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fire. It was very clear what happened. It was captured on film.

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Today there are allegations of some of those killed were actually

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hunted down by the police and killed in cold blood at very close

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range. Given all that and the allegations against the police and

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the film evidence, what happened today. It was extraordinary, one

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might expect charges against the police. Not yet, because inquiries

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are still going on. But today the strike miners, many of the striking

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miners were actually charged with the murder of their colleagues.

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Under the called "common purpose doctrine". This was an

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extraordinary law, which means if you have a gathering, and some of

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them are armed, and they are confronting the police, and there

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are then fatalities, those within that gathering can actually be

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charged with murder, regardless of who caused the killings. This is a

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bizarre law that was used a lot during the apartheid era. Often

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against the ANC. It is extraordinary it should be used

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today. What are the implications of what is quite an extraordinary

0:22:310:22:35

moment for the new South Africa? is an extraordinary moment, the

0:22:350:22:39

implications are enormous. This is seen as much more than a killing

0:22:390:22:46

and mine dispute. The firebrand former leader of the ANC youth

0:22:460:22:50

league, has called it madness, I met him last week, he was at the

0:22:500:22:54

Police Station in the mine trying to bring charges against the police.

0:22:550:23:00

It goes beyond politics. There is increasing concern within the

0:23:000:23:05

country as what is seen as a divide between ordinary people, and the

0:23:050:23:10

ANC, seen by many as elite, and not delivering after 18 years in power.

0:23:100:23:13

The killings have become symptomatic of that dispute.

0:23:130:23:16

President Zuma is up for re- election at the ANC conference

0:23:170:23:20

later this year, and it's the dispute that is increasingly

0:23:200:23:28

bringing in other parties, such as the churches.

0:23:280:23:32

Joining us from Johannesburg is the Methodist minister, who has been at

0:23:320:23:35

the site and spoken to the families of the miners. What are the

0:23:360:23:43

families of the men saying to you today? I haven't met directly with

0:23:430:23:49

any of the families. I have, when we went to Marikana, we went to the

0:23:490:23:53

actual site of the massacre. Then we met with the community. I spoke

0:23:530:23:58

to the community. We then went to the hospital, where there are still

0:23:580:24:03

people recovering from their wounds. And then we went to the police

0:24:030:24:07

station. In all places we prayed with the people. But, yesterday we

0:24:070:24:12

had a memorial service in the church, and I think that, first of

0:24:120:24:19

all, there seems to be, in the community, deep anxiety about on

0:24:190:24:24

going threats, on going harassment, on going vulnerability after what

0:24:240:24:32

happened. And actual that predated the massacre. There is a deep,

0:24:320:24:37

profound sense of grief. I mean, I actually think that the whole

0:24:370:24:41

country should be mourning. Because this is not just a private matter

0:24:410:24:47

that has happened on a mine in some place. It actually affects the

0:24:470:24:52

entire reputation of every South African. Do you worry, and do the

0:24:520:24:56

people you talked today in the community worry, that one result of

0:24:560:25:06
0:25:060:25:07

this may be more violence? I have no doubt about that, I think the

0:25:070:25:12

imagination of some of the workers in this country has been spark.

0:25:120:25:17

Particularly by this incident. It has underscored the huge disparity

0:25:170:25:21

that there is between the haves and the have-nots in this country. And

0:25:210:25:25

all sorts of allegations around greed and corruption and

0:25:250:25:31

overspending, and non-delivery of services. A whole plethora of

0:25:310:25:35

issues that now face an emerging democracy. What do you make, and

0:25:350:25:39

what do you think other people make of the use of this common purpose

0:25:390:25:45

law, which, I know many people thought had been utterly

0:25:450:25:53

discredited in the past? I'm not surprised. For me it is a legal

0:25:530:26:00

trick. Particularly, in view of the fact, that for the actual killing

0:26:000:26:07

of the 34 people at Marikana, there certainly was motive, I have seen

0:26:070:26:11

an e-mail, which exposes the policeman that was burnt, and the

0:26:120:26:17

policeman hacked to death. I think anybody who sees that footage would

0:26:170:26:24

understand the vitriol in the police, around the violation of

0:26:240:26:30

their rights. But, and so there is very strong motive for what now is

0:26:300:26:35

being described as murder, by the police, of those who were shot.

0:26:350:26:39

Most of them in the back, as they were clearly running away from an

0:26:390:26:45

assault on them. We mustn't forget that what predated this shooting,

0:26:450:26:51

was the firing of teargas and rubber bullets at those who were on

0:26:510:26:59

the mountain outcrop. Actually forcing people through the only

0:26:590:27:09
0:27:090:27:10

aperture that was available, straight into the line of fire. So,

0:27:100:27:20
0:27:200:27:22

the profound violence we are seeing here, as a kind of show of force,

0:27:220:27:26

has left most South Africans stunned that this could happen 18

0:27:260:27:31

years into a free South Africa. Thank you.

0:27:310:27:36

Now, they might be most familiar to you from science fiction movies, or

0:27:360:27:39

perhaps as high-tech weapons in the skies over Iraq or Afghanistan.

0:27:390:27:44

Over the next decade expect to see drones coming to the skies near you.

0:27:450:27:50

Vast sums are being spent on civilian drone projects, from

0:27:500:27:54

police surveillance to amateur photography. In the United States

0:27:540:27:58

Congress has told the space regulator to open up America to

0:27:580:28:02

drones by 2015, we could follow suit by the end of the decade. Are

0:28:020:28:04

we ready for a world where thousands of drones are patrolling

0:28:050:28:14
0:28:150:28:23

our skies. They are the eyes and ears of the Armed Forces. A decade

0:28:230:28:28

ago, less than 5% of US military aircraft were unmanned, now 40%

0:28:290:28:35

have no pilot on board. Many think the Typhoon, and the 5-35, will be

0:28:360:28:39

the last conventional fighters ever flown by the RAF. But the role of

0:28:390:28:44

the drone is now changing. British skies are about to open up to

0:28:440:28:49

thousands of civilian drones. Who is watching the drone operators,

0:28:490:28:58

how safe is this new technology? Next to the army draining zone on

0:28:580:29:02

Salisbury Plain, is a glimpse -- training zone on the Salisbury

0:29:020:29:07

Plain, is a glimpse of how drones could be used in the future.

0:29:070:29:12

It might not look much like the spy planes in Afghanistan, or Yemen,

0:29:120:29:16

but this is one of the first commercial uses of an unmanned

0:29:160:29:23

aircraft, in the UK itself. As the cost of sensors and digital

0:29:230:29:26

cameras have come down, so new civilian applications are starting

0:29:260:29:35

to become possible. These lightweight drones fly by

0:29:350:29:39

themselves, using satellite tracking to glide from point to

0:29:390:29:43

point. It is going to be taking many thousands of pictures, and

0:29:430:29:47

those pictures, we will know the precise location of each one, it is

0:29:470:29:53

possible to pull those photographs together. The data is then

0:29:530:29:59

analysesed, to find -- analysed, to find out how well crops are going

0:29:590:30:04

and if more fertiliser is needed. It is high-tech stuff, and an

0:30:040:30:09

industry this country could do with leading. It is a very exportable

0:30:090:30:13

technology, in the agriculture domain, you can scaling up for some

0:30:130:30:16

of the planes in the big fields you might have in Canada, for example.

0:30:160:30:21

If you are looking at other areas of technology, it can be in

0:30:210:30:24

construction, filming, environmental monitoring. It is

0:30:240:30:28

almost endless the sorts of applications of real benefit, and

0:30:280:30:33

not intrusive and not invasive. Endless possibilities, maybe, but a

0:30:330:30:37

small, lightweight drones as they get cheaper and more powerful,

0:30:370:30:45

serious questions are being asked about surveillance and privacy.

0:30:450:30:50

Police forces and the emergency serves have been testing these

0:30:500:30:54

small helicopter-style drones for some time now. There was a setback

0:30:540:30:58

when police in Liverpool first flew their's illegally, without the

0:30:580:31:04

right permission, and then managed to crash the �13,000 device into

0:31:050:31:09

the river Mersey. We have seen this document from the Association of

0:31:090:31:13

Chief Police Officers, which sets out the precise technical

0:31:130:31:17

specifications for these vehicles, the type of camera used. In a

0:31:170:31:20

rather strange section of the document, which reads more like a

0:31:200:31:25

bad crime novel than a police briefing. It sets out how senior

0:31:250:31:34

officers think these devices could be used in the future.

0:31:340:31:43

The unmanned aerial vehicle arrives, the area is extremely quiet, and

0:31:430:31:47

the only thing move is the PC. Weather conditions are good, cloud

0:31:470:31:54

cover is high and light. The launch goes as planned, PC trains the

0:31:540:31:57

camera on the rear of the target property, and starts receiving

0:31:570:32:02

lividy. As the front door goes in, the suspect appears out of an

0:32:020:32:07

upstairs window, he jumps over a number of fences into a nearby

0:32:070:32:12

footpath. As the suspect is running, the PC shrbgts a flight mode that

0:32:120:32:18

maintain as constant distance behind the suspect. The suspect

0:32:180:32:23

emerges into an area of scrubland, and is challenged and arrested by

0:32:230:32:27

the dog handling unit. At the moment, anyone can fly a

0:32:280:32:32

lightweight drone in the UK. If they can prove to the airspace

0:32:320:32:37

regulator, the CAA, that they can do it safely. That has many privacy

0:32:370:32:40

campaigners worried. Who is protecting the public's civil

0:32:400:32:44

liberties and privacy, with their huge increase in the amount of

0:32:440:32:50

private companies and institutions able to use drones over our heads,

0:32:500:32:56

who is going to stop people from watching us on our own property,

0:32:560:33:00

and even our own homes. The Civil Aviation Authority have made it

0:33:000:33:03

very clear, it is not within their remit, they don't have the

0:33:030:33:08

authority, or the resources, to monitor what people are doing with

0:33:080:33:12

drones. Their remit is solely concerned with safety.

0:33:120:33:16

And, with drones costing a fraction of the price of helicopters, the

0:33:160:33:21

worry is, the authorities will greatly extend the use of aerial

0:33:210:33:27

surveillance. A small drone was used to film clashes last year at a

0:33:270:33:31

political rally in Poland. But this wasn't controlled by the police. It

0:33:310:33:36

was all filmed by a private company on the demonstrators' side of the

0:33:360:33:40

street. It raises new questions about who will be watching who in

0:33:400:33:45

the future. The real money, though, will not be in building small

0:33:450:33:50

helicopters, but in selling larger, more powerful drones. Government

0:33:500:33:56

agencies want them for border security and search and rescue. And

0:33:560:34:01

big freight firms, to ship cargo long distances. With this in mind,

0:34:010:34:06

Congress has told the US regulator to open up all domestic airspace to

0:34:060:34:12

large drones, by 2015. The UK won't be far behind. I don't think that

0:34:120:34:17

the public aware about how quickly this is going to be happening. We

0:34:170:34:21

are talking in the US that the skies will be open by 2015, in the

0:34:210:34:25

UK, in Europe, by 2020. That's going to happen very quickly I

0:34:250:34:29

don't think the public is really aware of the changes that will

0:34:290:34:32

happen. It is a real failure to have a proper discussion, and

0:34:320:34:37

proper debate about this. Very few parliamentarians, for instance, are

0:34:370:34:42

talking about this. Here in the UK, there may have been little public

0:34:420:34:46

discussion, but quietly, and behind the scenes, a serious amount of

0:34:460:34:52

public money is being spent. A consortium of large defence

0:34:520:35:00

companies has been given �31 million, to prove drones can safely

0:35:000:35:04

sure British skies with commercial jets. One of the largest grants of

0:35:040:35:08

its type ever handed out. Another �20 million of tax-payers' money

0:35:080:35:12

has been spent turning this old military base, and the airspace

0:35:120:35:18

around it, into the largest drone test site in Europe. This is on the

0:35:180:35:23

west coast of Wales, home to the British army's new watch keeper

0:35:230:35:25

drone programme. The only airport in the UK where companies are

0:35:260:35:32

allowed to test that koind of unmand technology. -- kind of

0:35:320:35:37

unmanned technology. The spy planes hidden away in the hangers here,

0:35:380:35:42

will eventually go to Afghanistan. But this was sold to the town as

0:35:420:35:47

more than a military site. It was meant to bring in hundreds of high-

0:35:470:35:51

tech jobs, testing the first generation of peaceful civilian

0:35:510:35:55

drones. What I object to is the military use of this base. And the

0:35:560:36:01

way it was sold to the public, as a civilian exercise. The project has

0:36:010:36:09

faced some fierce criticism from local residents. This man made his

0:36:090:36:13

feelings clear after a recent public consultation to open up more

0:36:130:36:17

airspace to drones. There are safety issues regarding drones,

0:36:170:36:23

there are noise issues, but if in exchange to that we have hundreds

0:36:230:36:26

of high-tech jobs, I'm sure the local people would support it. And

0:36:260:36:31

so would I. Despite all the public money spent,

0:36:320:36:37

most of the site here still lays empty, with few civilian customer.

0:36:370:36:45

Proof, maybe, that throwing cash they at the -- at the next big

0:36:450:36:49

thing, isn't always the way to go in a resomething he. This site is

0:36:490:36:53

being used, it is active, and it is delivering services for people who

0:36:530:36:58

need it. That will continue in the future. We have the capacity to

0:36:580:37:01

accommodate more business, and that will come. This is still an

0:37:010:37:08

industry in its infancy, with teething problems to overcome.

0:37:080:37:13

A drone crashed next to the runway here three years ago. There were no

0:37:130:37:18

juries, but it clearly spooked -- injuries, but it clearly spooked

0:37:180:37:28

people living near the site. Opera singer and music teacher, Arian

0:37:280:37:32

James lives a mile up the road. Because you can't get rid of the

0:37:320:37:38

noise, I can't get rid of the connection between the drone and

0:37:380:37:45

its purpose in life. It is a killing machine, it is spying, well

0:37:450:37:51

they say this one won't be carrying bombs. But, drones do carry bombs.

0:37:510:37:59

I know, I don't know, maybe this one can too. But it has cameras. I

0:37:590:38:03

don't know what happens to the film footage, who is watching, what they

0:38:030:38:12

do with it? It is a question. The questions raised in west Wales,

0:38:120:38:18

privacy, noise, safety, are hurdles the industry itself will need to

0:38:180:38:23

overcome. There are clearly some economic benefits to using unmanned

0:38:230:38:26

aircraft. But first we will have to accept the idea of drones flying

0:38:260:38:36
0:38:360:38:38

high above our heads in British skies. Noel Sharkey is Professor of

0:38:380:38:45

Robotics, and former presenter of Robot Wars. And Kevin Warwick is

0:38:450:38:47

Professor of Cybernetics at Reading University.

0:38:470:38:52

Where do you think this will go in a few years? It is an exciting

0:38:520:38:55

commercial opportunity now the drones we see at the moment have

0:38:550:38:58

big advantages when you look at human-piloted vehicles. They can

0:38:580:39:02

stay in the air for 30 hours at a time for example. But more

0:39:020:39:05

importantly, perhaps going places that humans can't go. So, I think

0:39:050:39:10

we are going to see things, such as at the moment in New Orleans, the

0:39:100:39:14

possiblities there for drones to go and inspect and see where there are

0:39:140:39:19

problems. Because of the terrible weather, you wouldn't put a plane

0:39:190:39:23

up there? It could be dangerous to humans. If a drone crashs in that

0:39:230:39:28

scenario, it is not such a political problem. There are no

0:39:280:39:34

deaths. I think they are going to get smaller. How small? That is a

0:39:340:39:38

good question, how small could they get. How small the technology can

0:39:380:39:46

go. It could be the size of a bee or a wasp. Very appropriate, drones

0:39:460:39:49

as bees! Presumably they will get cheaper and cheaper to run. Every

0:39:490:39:58

home should have one? You can already buy them on Amazon for $220,

0:39:580:40:01

you can buy the parrot drone and fly it around your neighbour's

0:40:010:40:05

window. It will become very available. Lots of people are using

0:40:060:40:09

them now. Real estate agents are using them, there is the drone

0:40:090:40:13

journalism lab now. They are really getting everywhere. There is no

0:40:130:40:17

regulation for it either. obvious problem people think about

0:40:170:40:20

is the privacy problem. You are in your back garden, you are doing

0:40:200:40:24

whatever you do in the back garden, and then somebody is filming you or

0:40:240:40:29

recording you, or having a look through your bedroom window? That

0:40:290:40:32

is the thing I'm most concerned about. You have the trade off

0:40:320:40:36

tweent security. There is good uses for drones -- between security.

0:40:360:40:41

There is good uses for drones, but you have individuality and autonomy

0:40:410:40:45

and finding the line. I have suggested to the police, in a

0:40:450:40:49

debate, that we should really look at signing drones out, wait you

0:40:490:40:54

sign out a weapon. Or the way you have a phone tap, so you go to see

0:40:540:40:59

a magistrate and judge, and get it out, in particular, because what we

0:40:590:41:02

find up until now, there is a lot of noise with this. I hope it won't

0:41:020:41:06

fly over myed head. I don't trust it. It is heading for you. There

0:41:060:41:12

goes the paper review. We tried to do the paper review later?

0:41:120:41:15

badly controlled. That strikes me as another problem, if these things

0:41:150:41:19

are flying around, that looks great fun, I would love to play around

0:41:190:41:24

with it, but it will crash. They do crash and the expensive ones?

0:41:240:41:31

13 a year are crashing since 2004. When something is this size it

0:41:320:41:35

doesn't matter, but the military weapons systems crash it is a

0:41:350:41:39

totally different ball game. This is half way between a serious

0:41:390:41:43

object and a toy. Kids could potentially build it and learn

0:41:430:41:48

about the technology. That doesn't look like a very sophisticated one.

0:41:480:41:53

The police ones are �40,000, they have really extremely light-weight

0:41:530:41:58

cameras, very high resolution, and very, very easy to fly. You have

0:41:580:42:02

device and you twist your finger on it. There is a privacy question and

0:42:020:42:06

civil liberties question. We have already got cameras on every street

0:42:060:42:09

corner, just about. Lots of advantages for using them. It is

0:42:090:42:16

not just people, you can monitor livestock, for farmers it is very

0:42:160:42:22

useful. You can inspect pipelines. That is all sorts of opportunities,

0:42:220:42:25

that are problematic, when humans are a problem, they do a short

0:42:250:42:30

space of time. That is why we need to sort out the issues of civil

0:42:300:42:33

liberties, there is nothing wrong with drones as such, you can use

0:42:330:42:37

them for rescue situations, and everything else, we mustn't let the

0:42:370:42:42

PR of that distract us from the issues of civil liberties. For the

0:42:420:42:46

UK the commercial opportunities are enormous. We have a fantastic

0:42:460:42:49

technological base in this area. We have a good industry in this area,

0:42:490:42:54

one the world's best. For us in the UK, it is a fantastic commercial

0:42:540:42:59

opportunity. Then, what are you both saying about this, you have

0:42:590:43:03

laid out the opportunities, but in terms, it should be regulated by

0:43:030:43:07

someone. And you were saying sign it out like a police firearm?

0:43:070:43:14

is one way of doing it. If I go out for a picnic, the drones aren't

0:43:140:43:18

invited. I don't want strangers watching me. I'm not doing anything

0:43:180:43:21

wrong. I'm a private person, I don't want to be watched by people

0:43:210:43:26

when I don't need to. When this first came up, and five police

0:43:260:43:29

departments, Kent and a number of others, were working with BAe

0:43:300:43:33

systems and the Home Office, and the Guardian used freedom of

0:43:330:43:35

information to get transactions of the meetings. They had been talking

0:43:350:43:38

about using it for looking at smuggling across the channel. When

0:43:380:43:42

you saw the transactions of the meetings, they were saying things

0:43:420:43:46

in the transactions like this will be a good news story, rather than

0:43:460:43:50

the Big Brother-type story, then you look at what the Guardian found,

0:43:500:43:54

they had a whole list of things, fly posting, anti-social behaviour.

0:43:540:44:01

There was a huge list of crimes, so it would be a fishing expedition.

0:44:010:44:05

You could put drugs in them, no mules, all kinds of things? It will

0:44:050:44:09

be very difficult to regulate them. Because anybody can buy one and fly

0:44:090:44:15

one. To regulate the police is the point. I will regulate the

0:44:150:44:19

newspapers, droned off the table! Let's have a look at the front

0:44:190:44:29
0:44:290:44:50

pages. The Guardian and a lot of For an apology, on the 2 3rdma May,

0:44:500:44:55

during an item on welfare reform, we broadcast an interview with

0:44:550:44:59

Shanene Thorpe, that unfairly created the impression that she was

0:44:590:45:03

unemployed and wholly dependant on benefits and living off the state

0:45:030:45:08

as a lifestyle choice. She asks us to make sure that she has been in

0:45:080:45:11

work-related education since leaving school. Shortly after the

0:45:110:45:16

programme we published an apology on the website for the unmerited

0:45:160:45:19

embarrassment and distress it may have caused her, we are happy to

0:45:190:45:23

make this broadcast apology as well. That's all from Newsnight, we will

0:45:230:45:33
0:45:330:45:54

watch over you one way or another tomorrow. Good night.

0:45:540:45:58

Hello, after a chilly night t will feel like autumn in the morning.

0:45:580:46:01

Despite the early sunshine. Already another weather system coming into

0:46:010:46:04

Northern Ireland and Scotland, with outbreaks of rain and a freshening

0:46:040:46:07

breeze, once again. Let's take a look at things in the afternoon.

0:46:070:46:12

Drizzle late in the day in Cumbria. On the other side of the Pennine,

0:46:120:46:15

hazy sunshine continuing, it is a dry, bright day in East Anglia and

0:46:150:46:19

the south-east, a better day for the Paralympics events, no showers

0:46:190:46:23

around too. The sun will be turning hazy. Increasing cloud in south-

0:46:230:46:26

west England, maybe a bit of light drizzle here and there to end the

0:46:260:46:33

day. A few spots of rain heading into western and northern counties

0:46:330:46:37

of Wales late on, for Northern Ireland the rain clears and there

0:46:370:46:40

may be late day brightness, the further west you are. For Scotland,

0:46:400:46:44

a damp afternoon to the west and north, but the rain taking much of

0:46:440:46:54
0:46:540:47:07

the day before reaching eastern A bright day across the south, and

0:47:070:47:11