20/09/2012 Newsnight


Stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark, including Manchester's gang culture, Ayaan Hirsi Ali on the Muslim protests, Mark Urban on America and Juliette Binoche.

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Tonight, charges on four counts of murder for Dale Cregan, the man


being held in connection with the deaths of two police officers in


Manchester on Tuesday. Donal MacIntyre investigates the terror


being wrought by feuding criminal families, that has force add


culture of silence in the city. Most people don't like the place,


it is game to them, it's like let's get this person out, it is like


Robinhood, how many people protected him -- Robin Hood, how


many people protected him. We will discuss that with our guest.


Protest and unrest in Pakistan, as the latest images to offend some


Muslims are published in France. I will speak to the prominent Somali


academic, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who fled to America to escape Muslim rage.


We report from America on how anxiety over the country's place in


the world is playing out in the presidential battle. This man says


America's place in the league of nations has fallen under President


Obama, and that he knows what to do about it.


Jeremy and Vince Cable break into song.


# It was a 40-foot ploug Good evening. Tonight the Chief


Constable of Manchester asked people in the city to look at their


conscience and come forward with information. The people have been


too scared to do so until now, despite a �50,000 reward, is


evidence of the impact of the criminal warfare bedeviling the


city. Now police have announced that Dale Cregan has been charged


with the murder of two police officers, and the murder of a


father and son in Manchester earlier this year. A year ago Donal


MacIntyre investigated, for Newsnight, the notorious gang


culture in the city, he has returned to find out more about the


culture of silence. Families and colleagues of the two


fallen officers continued to lay wreaths at the crime scene, and


people are coming to terms with the possibility that Dale Cregan, the


subject of the biggest manhunt in the had history of Greater


Manchester Police, was recognised and offered sanctuary in his own


community of Hattersley, while on the run. In spite of a huge media


campaign, nobody thought fit to inform the authorities. Not even an


unprecedented �50,000 reward could entice those who saw the fugutive


during his 39 days on the run, to hand the suspected murderer in. The


question already being asked by some senior policemen, is what


could possibly motivate communities like this h to offer, support,


sanctuary or protection to gangsters like Dale Cregan. Is it a


matter of retribution or fear of intimidation, or is it a matter of


distrust between the police and the people on some of these streets.


The Chief Constable of Greater Manchester Police, Sir Peter Fahy,


had already allude today what he called, a conspiracy of silence, as


he blamed unnamed members of the community of turning a blind eye.


Are you concerned there is an element of mistrust of the police


in this situation, and it is contributing to the conspiracy of


silence? We need not to be niave that there are criminal networks


that make a lot of money about drug dealing, counterfeiting, stolen


goods, and they don't want the police or any form of authority


interfering with their efforts. does this understate the range of


motives at play. Is gangland wealth and intimidation sufficient to


explain the actions of those who saw Cregan and chose not to speak


out. People in this community want good


policing, they want good law and order. But what they are get


convinced is that actually police forces, such as the Greater


Manchester Police, are able to deliver that, within this community,


24 hours a day, seven days a week. So they turn to other people that


they think can be more effective. On the estate, people are quite


open about fears for their own safety, if they are seen to co-


operate with the police. There are a certain class of people out there


that are keeping somebody like this under wraps, you know, and they are


more or less bullied into not saying anything. People are scared.


I'm scared myself. So I know other people will be scared. It's


frightening because you think to yourself, what will be the


reprecussions, in so many weeks or months down the line, when all this


is gone, you worry. I think some other poor innocent buy stander


could get caught inbetween -- bistander, could get caught


inbetween all of this. Dominic Noonan was handcuffed to two police


officers when men held up the car. Dominic Noonan released on license


after a gun crime, has relied on members of the public to protect


him on the run. There is a phone call, and they say, Dominic needs


moving, a car will turn up, the location will be moved. Only the


driver and one person would know where the next location was.


would somebody who didn't know you, but part of your wider community,


why would they give you sanctuary? Most people don't like the police,


it is game to them, it is like let's get this person out, it is


like Robin Hood, how many people protected him in the community,


that is what it looks like. Those who are familiar with policing in


Northern Ireland recognise that there are clear parallels between


the dynamics at play there during the troubles, and the dynamics that


revealed themselves most graphicly here, in recent days. Distrust in


the police, -- graphicically here, in recent days. Distrust in the


police, fear of retribution, and the lack of confidence in the


police to protect them in the long- term. They are not interested in


the police, the police are out for themselves, they don't look after


the estates round here, these people will come out and protect


those who look after them. Communities feel threatened, they


don't feel they can turn to the traditional providers of community


stability, community organisation. And increasingly people within


those communities identify themselves, because they are hard


men, as being able to deliver the safety that people in the community


want. The most pressing concern here is the ability of the police


to protect the public in the long- term, if they aid the authorities.


What confidence can they have that you will still protect them when


this media circus dies down? would say because of our record in


Greater Manchester Police in bringing down gun crime and gang


activity, you only have to look at the area of Moss Side in man


chester, it is transformed, we had some of those levels of mistrust,


we had to protect witness, brave people came forward and made


statements, and serious criminals have been locked up for a very long


period. As the justice system begins to deal with recent events,


this community has to contemplate the terrible consequences that


resulted from some among them turning a blind eye.


Here in the studio to discuss what this case can tell us about gang


culture in Manchester, we have Peter Walsh, author of Gang War,


the inside story of the Manchester gangs. Ruth Ibegbuna, director of a


youth project in Manchester, and from Birmingham, Deputy Chief


Constable of West Midlands these, Dave Thompson, who leads on gangs


for the Association of Chief Constables, and was formerly a


chief police officers in Manchester. Listening to the film, and also a


number of the local people saying when the caravan moves on, and


after all this you might not be there, and people have a terrible


fear of retribution, no matter how reassuring the words of the Chief


Constable, that is what people were telling Donal MacIntyre today?


the environment of what happened in the last few days it is


understandable, people are really concerned and will be frightened.


There are a couple of points to note. Perhaps it is difficult at


what is a really difficult time. The points Peter Fahy has made,


across the country we have seen gun and knife crime fall. We have seen


successes around taking out serious criminals. That may well be true,


let's just deal with what they are saying, it is not just over the


last few days. These people were saying that consistently they don't


feel that they can trust the police to look after them in the long-term,


that they feel retribution, that you are not there 24 hours, and


there is a real culture of intimidation. Presumably you can't


belittle that. You put out a �50,000, a reward, nobody comes


forward, it is part of the culture? I won't discuss detailed issues


around the policing in Manchester, I will talk around the broader


issue. It would be fair to say, clearly in terms of gangs and


organised criminals, that people are concerned, what I would say


around that is you have to look, look at what's going on in the


courtrooms, look at actual low the high levels of success, clearly the


issues that Sir Peter Fahy talked about, that have happened in Moss


Side, that areing significant. Look at the work that police forces are


doing, that is about information, not evidence of witnesses, lots of


covert activity, lots of new technology being used, you will see


there is some significant work being carried out in those areas. I


understand people are concerned, but I do think people can trust in


policing and look at some real successes. Let's lock at that, you


know, we are obviously not going to talk specifically, we are talking


about lots of guns, grenades. People know about these things. You


know, do you feel that what the woman said, they are not there 24


hours, David Wilson said, the problem is they don't feel the


police are there for them? Thomson is right, they have had a


lot of successes in Manchester. Despite the horrors of the recent


incident, the facts show the problem with gang culture is not as


bad as it was a few years ago or in the 1990s, the figures show.


Recently they have had a lot of successes in the city. Clearly


there is a problem, witness intimidation, people don't feel


they can go to the police, and then feel safe in their own homes.


Someone like Dominic Noonan feels very confident about talking about


these issues. Talking openly about them, that people will come to him,


people are passed along houses sort of thing. We are not talking about


lots and lot of criminal tendencies, we are talking about ordinary women,


men, kids, feeling vulnerable? and growing up in a situation where


it is normal not to go to the police, or grass, as they see it.


When you, Ruth, have been speaking to some of the young people you


deal with, particularly since the shootings on Tuesday, give me some


sense of their reaction? teenagers we have been working with


have been utterly horrified. But I think it is also the area of


Manchester. A lot of the focus in man chest, in terms of gang


violence, that it is in Moss Side, an area synonymous with gang


violence, this has come out of the blue for the young people we work


with, they weren't aware that this area of Manchester could contain


this level of violence. reaction to the murders? Horrifying,


the young people have realised the police can be vulnerable. The young


people feel the police are against them sometimes, they feel it is us


and them sometimes, this has shown, that with the dangerous criminals


the police are vulnerable. Vulnerable, does that mean they are


more likely to go to them if there is a problem, you work with police


officers out of uniform with young people. Will there be a change in


diem thatic, or a sudden, visceral outpouring of fear? There is an


outpouring of fear, but I also think the young people we work with,


they wrote a manifesto, the number one thing was, don't let killers


get away with the crimes. When we pointed out that was the same


policing priority, it is to show them the police are on the same


page, but the trust has to be there, and it is not where it needs to be.


The trust is not there yet? I think it is in some communities, but I


would agree with the points made there, in terms of our relationship


with young people is very important. I think there is an absolute


policing job here to target gun supply and dangerous and violent


people, that is what young people want. By the same token, I think


the work we are doing around gangs now. For me it is much more now


about local authorities, health, about the work going on in schools.


Understanding much more about the gangs and diverting young people


away, and actually giving young people confidence in policing is


really important. Everybody talk about the change that was brought


about in Moss Side, and the thing was, that Moss Side has been


transformed, partly because how many millions of pounds, �6 million


was spent on that. Can you move into an area and do that, you can't


do it in all the areas. Tell me about that whole model, you target


an area, you put a huge amount of police resources in, but you can't


do that everywhere? This happened in the 1990s in Manchester, where


there was a series of drug raids on various estates, that the police


took the view that they would wipe out the people dealing drugs on


each individual estate. You would move from one estate to the other,


eventually the money would run out, or resources would then be


channelled into whatever was the latest fear of the day, it might


have been burglary, or ramraiding or something else. So, in a sense,


you are always chasing the money with the police. Resources are


finite, and there is a limit to what you can do. The follow on from


last year's riots, is there a sense of a change of atmosphere following


the riots, the police had to change their relationship with the people?


They started in Manchester in 2008. They adopted in the areas Ruth was


talking about, in south Manchester, a quite hard-edged approach, where


they used to stop and search using the powers. In one five-month


period they stopped and searched nearly 1,000 people. They were


using orders where they could put people in care and custody if they


felt they were at risk of their lives. And the Osman orders if they


felt people's lives were at risk. It had a great effect on the gang


movement, but you can't sustain that ininfinitely. What about the


riots? I think the policing going on post-riots, there has been a


definite sense that the police are reaching out to the community,


there has been a change of tone. I agree earlier on it was harder-


edged, there has been a change of tone. Much more about working


together with the community, with the police feeling part of the


community. What I'm hoping, after these horrible murders, that the


police don't go back to the hard edge.


There can be nothing, in a sense, good coming out of two dreadful


murder, one thing you think it might be a catalyst for a real


wake-up call on both sides? On both sides, but hopefully not a


retraction back to the more hard- edged policing, what needs to


happen is more engagment with the community. That is happening


fantastically in Manchester, where police officers are talking to


residents, I hope there is more not less of that. Do you see a


variation in the way the policing approach has been across the


country, and the idea that Ruth is saying, in a way, this should be a


catalyst for change in how policing is delivered, perhaps in the city?


Well, I would say, actually, I think this watershed in terms of


lots of work round enforcement, but clearly working with communities


and problem-solving is key. I think that is work that has been going on


in pwhan Chester and lots of other cities. And surely events that have


happened this week, with the deaths of young people involved around


issues of gang violence. There is clearly a moment in time where you


have to reflect whether or not things are right. I do hope we see


not just in Manchester, but across the country, a moment of reflection


about how to go forward. Presumably, it is inescapably that this has


been brought, partly because it is two women have been killed, I


wonder if it was the same reif it was -- reaction if it was male


officers? It wouldn't have made any difference, you have a man with


guns and grenades, he was, well, we can't talk about the circumstances


or whatever happened, at some visceral level. Do you think, Ruth


is saying that actually she feels it will be a catalyst for change,


do you think it is a moment we can grab on to? Ruth was talking about


how it affect the young people, and the fact that they were WPCs, and


for the first time some of the young people that Ruth deals with


have seen the police as vulnerable. Perhaps they have seen them in the


past as strong authority figures, possibly too strong, now they


appreciate they are just as vulnerable as they are. When the


funerals happen, we are told that police officers all over the


country are offering to come in on days off to let the Manchester


police take part in the service, do you feel this is a week of


watershed? It feels like that, there is a feeling it is a city in


shock. The police are in shock. But also the whole community, across


the community, feels this is a very, very shocking, dreadful thing that


happened. In some ways we have to build and grow from it. There has


to be some kind of positive change. Positive change from this, you


accept there is a chance for positive change? I would agree


whatever he says, everyone is in shock. Let's not underestimate,


there is a lot of change and work going on already. Actually, we are


really committed in terms of this problem. It cannot be solved by the


police, we have a clear role to do. We have lots of agencies and


community are central to a sustainable solution to the issues


of gang violence. The Pakistan army has today been


battling with demonstrators in Islamabad, where they want to


target the US embassy over the American-made anti-Islam video. And


adding to the protesters' anger is the publication in a French


satirical magazine, of cartoons mocking the Prophet Mohammed, also


in France, Salman Rushdie has said in an interview for Le Monde that


something has gone wrong in the culture of Islam, saying it has


gone in on itself like a self- inflicted wound. We will hear from


our guests, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, in a moment, first from our diplomatic


editor, Mark Urban. Tell us about the scale of the protests? This is


going on for ten days now, if you go back to the 11th September, very


significant day for the United States, that is when the first


protest started in Cairo, they are often a very influential country in


the Arab world, spurred on by a Salafist militant Islamic TV


station because of this video. That, on the same afternoon, spread to


Libya, where the events took place in Benghazi, that cost the


ambassador Christopher Stephen, and three others, their lives. A couple


of days later, the United States embassy in Yemen was invaded by an


angry mob. They smashed the place up. Big problems there. And then,


the follow -- following day, a Friday, protests across the Arab


and Islamic world, with particular problems in Sudan and Tunisia,


where a total of ten people were killed. In Sudan British and German


missions were attacked as well as American sites. On it went, the


15th you had the incident at Camp Bastion, an elaborate attack,


killed two US Marines, 15 Taliban also lost their lives. The Taliban


claimed in the communique, one of the reasons was this video, again,


but this elaborate attack of probably put together before they


had heard of that. And then, of course, when we thought the whole


thing was dying away, in the last few days, this issue of the French


magazine, Charlie Hebdo, publishing this, a rather be a secure


satirical magazine, has led to France tightening security in 20


countries, you see at the centre of the image, Beirut, where Hezbollah


has called protests. In Pakistan, still after shocks from the


original video affair, with demonstrations going on today in


Islamabad, very angry, very violent, the Pakistan Army saying that


demonstrations after Friday prayers will be banned tomorrow. The same


thing has happened in Tunisia. Friday prayers tomorrow being the


big moment. But tell me, how nervous do you think is the west


about how to calibrate its response to all this? Having been in


Washington last week, making the piece, we will see in a few minutes,


I think policy makers are fairly bewildered, many of them, they have


tried all sorts of different approaches to securing their


interests, to spreading democracy in the Arab world, from the really


heavy approach of Iraq, through to the lighter touch of Libya, and


staying out all together in many place, still they have these


reactions. The truth is, the western policy-making perspective


is defeated by a lot of this. The rational approach, killing Osama


Bin Laden, for example, did not touch off this type of event. It is


the symbolic insults to Islam which have shown themselves so powerful,


from the Danish cartoons, to the burning of Korans at Bagram Air


Base, that was avoidable, but in so many countries like France and the


United States, find themselves defending their constitutional


freedom of speech issues, you have this irreducable clash of the two


cultures. Thank you very much indeed. Joining me now from Boston


is the former Dutch MP, author and political campaigner, she's, in


recent years, denounced her Islamic faith, and claims Islam is an


ideology inherently flawed and pose as bigger threat than we think. Her


own views have led to death threats. First of all, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, how


do you think, having heard what Mark Urban was saying, about how


the west should respond, to essentially what is a symbolic


issue for Islam, and slightly the bewilderment at that, what do you


think the west should do? I think the west should stand for its


principles, I think that President Obama, Secretary of State Clinton


and other western leaders of the western world should explain over


and over again to their colleagues in Arab-Muslim countries that what


they are demanding is something that they as elected politicians


simply cannot give to them. There is constitutionally protected


speech, the film that we have seen, cartoons, all that kind of thing is


protected in the United States by the first amendment. They must do


not have the power to change any of that. The fact that the Secretary


of State in the United States says this film is bad and reprehensible,


and disgusting, that is an expression of her opinion. It is


not a promise to introduce legislation to curb that. But if


you listen to the Prime Minister of Turkey, the President of Egypt, the


Pakistanies, all of these Muslim countries, what they really are


seeking is an amendment of the First Amendment. That just isn't


going to happen. Should there not be laws against inciting, as it


were, religious hatred, there are such laws in some countries, the UK.


Presumably those are laws you think should exist, no? I do not think


such laws should exist. If you look at the history of the freedom of


speech, the freedom of conscience, the freedom of expression, in


Europe and in America, this is a culmination of the victory of the


individual, as a human being. It has become one of the most basic


human rights, this wasn't achieved overnight. Hundreds of years went


before that. When all these freedoms were not available. Do we


want to appease people in the -- Muslim and ar rash world who are


not there, by indulging them and -- and Arab world who are not there


yet, by indulging them, and then saying you guys should catch up


with us, and our leaders explaining we won't go back. Do you accept


that Muslims have the right to be offended, frirsly, by the film, and


-- firstly, by the film, and now the cartoons and cartoon of the


past, do you think they have the right to be offended by these


things? The freedom of speech, freedom of expression that is


constitutionally set in place, that protects the right to offend. It


doesn't protect good manners. I do not want to insult anyone, and I


hate people insulting one another, and insulting one another's


religions, et cetera, but that is what it protected. So there is no


point pretending otherwise. In the United States now, and I am


following the elections, and what the Republicans say about the


Democrats hurts Democratic people deeply, what Democrats say about


Republicans hurt them deeply, that is protected. You do accept that


the majority of Muslims who are offended by the film and the


cartoon, are offended, they are not violent, they are simply offended,


presumably they have the right to feel offended if they feel their


religion or culture is under attack? Absolutely, the majority is


offended, but in their offence, I think what they should do, the


majority of Muslims, for them to be credible, is for them to object to


real human suffering. Let me give you an example. You just reported


on Pakistan. In mid-August, I believe it was the 14th of August,


a 14-year-old girl was raped in Pakistan, by five men, that was


national news, there was no demonstration of any kind, no


outrage of any kind. This happens throughout the Muslim world, all


the time. There is no outrage in the Muslim world when human life is


taken, when churches are burned, when synagogues are burned, when


Muslim, I know, a homicideal few, when they say and do bad things to


others, including Muslims, that is Sufi, and Shias, but then there is


some video somewhere in the south of California, and people in Egypt


know about it, I'm sorry, it's not credible. Thank you very much for


joining you, we have to stop you there.


Much of the anger we have just been discussing has focused sharply on


America and that of its foreign policy. What direction it takes in


the years to come may well be something determined in the US


presidential election, but both Barack Obama and Mitt Romney are


acutely aware that promises of for more rays into foreign lands will


not go down well with an already war-weary American electorate. It


is not just the diplomatic and military might on the wane, it


might be trade over superpowers in the future such as China. For his


own assessment of whether America remains top dog and for how long,


our own diplomatic editor jouornied there. On Baltimore's seafront,


they have been honouring the past and contemplating the present. It


is 200 years since the US and Britain began the war of 1812, a


muddled and unnecessary little spat about trade rights. More recently,


the US-UK relationship has been one of those comforting, unchanging


poles, around this country has fixed its foreign policy. But as


the country heads for elections, economic wos have made it more


inward-look -- woes, have made it more inward-looking, less sure that


American supremacy can be taken for granted. We have to be careful, we


are close to losing it, in my opinion. I think China is very hot


on our heels. What really ticked me off when Obama first became


President was he went all around the world apologising for


everything we did. If we didn't do what we did there would be


countries in a lot worse shape. Foreign policy issues narrowly


defined, relations with Russia, even whether America should attack


Iran, have not played a big part in this campaign, not yet, any way,


but, looming just beneath the surface, there is an obsession with


America's status in the world, and whether it has declined under paib.


His opponents -- President Obama. His opponents insist it has. Last


week this country commemorated the victims of 9/11, President Obama


laid a wreath at the Pentagon, and reminded people how he had dealt


with Al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda's leadership has been devastated.


Osama Bin Laden will never threaten us again. The US may still be the


world's top military power, but, in the aftermath of that attack, it


waged two hugely costly war. America is suffering from


intervention fatigue. American concern about terrorism is


way, way down, it figures in the low single digits among people


polled as to what their principal concerns are in the world. In


addition to that, there is both a weariness and wariness about


American intervention in the world, which is pegged to Iraq and


Afghanistan, and the possibility of having to take action in Syria.


Sensing this national mood, the President has, in his campaigning,


explicitly turned his attention to the battle at home, for jobs.


evening, over the last decade we have spent a trillion dollars on


war, at a time of rising debt and hard economic times. Now we must


invest in America's greatest resource, our people, America, it


is time to focus on nation building here at home.


The Romney campaign, and its more agrossive supporters, accuses


President Obama of abandoning allies, shrinking from challenges,


and leaving the world stage to others. As a Navy SEAL I fought, so


I would never have to see my President bow to anyone.


Mitt Romney accuses President Obama of presiding over a avoidable


decline. In American century we lead the free world, and the free


world leads the entire world. If we don't have the strength or vision


to lead, then other powers will take our place. Pulling history in


a very different direction. The war of 1812 pitted Britain as the pre-


eminent naval and trading power of its day against an upstart newcomer,


America. So two centuries on, has the tide of history caught up with


the US? Is this country now in terminal decline?


This man insists it is not, and has been quoted by both presidential


candidates for saying so. Americans are conflicted, they have


contradictory impulses in their foreign policy, and always have.


They have an impulse to try to shape the world in ways that they


think are conducive to their interests, and their principles.


They also have an impulse that sounds like too much of a burden,


it's too expensive, we don't really want that much role in the world.


Often these things coincide almost exactly at the same time. If it'ser


in row sis you are looking for in a super-- neurosis you are looking


for in a superpower, America is your country. The recession has


dented the confidence of many Americans. It is Mansfield Ohio,


unemployment is 11% and the community is struggling to cope


with the closure of a local car plant. Until town like Mansfield,


located in a key marginal state recover, the economy will dominate


their concerns, and candidates for office will act accordingly.


The Republican candidate, Mitt Romney, came here last week, his


pitch is that, as a successful businessman, he knows how to turn


things round. America does not have to have the long face we have right


now under this President, we can get America going again, growing


again, I know how to do it. There is an area where the core issues of


this campaign, jobs and the economy, do touch on foreign policy. That's


trade practices and relations between the great powers. In


particular, China. PR Machine Works played host to Mr


Romney, it has come through the recession without redundancies, but


the boss here, a local Republican candidate, sees a direct connection


between the local economy and wider world. I think we have to stand up


to China, and tell them we want them to be part of the


international community, and part of the international trade, but


they have to play by the rules. That simple. You are very


interdependant with the Chinese, they boy a lot of US Government


debt, they have big investments here, can you afford a trade war,


or some kind of political confrontation with China? No, I


don't think we can afford a trade war, but we can sit down at the


table and work towards getting that level playing field. It is in


everybody's interest, including the Chinese, to get that done.


Thank you Ohio, we will get it done. Tough talk on China and Russia may


please some, but in the tough corridors of power Mr Romney has


drawn fire. His convention speech didn't mention soldiers in


Afghanistan, his one foreign trip drew flack, as did his recent


interference on violence in Egypt. So foreign policy is an area where


he has scored poorly against the President, and either man is


conditioned by the realities of power. One thing that won't change


with whoever is in the White House is the interests, we have to


protect those interests, having a bad relationship right out of the


gate with China, is not a hopeful way to protect our interests, we


want a peaceful China on the world stage. It is good for all of us, it


raises the level of all boats. I think that the first, and most


important issue that any President will face after the redevelopment


and the continued reconstitution of our own economy, will be China.


Followed by the question of Iran and her nuclear capabilities, and


then into probably the management of the called Arab Spring.


And whoever wins, their latitude for manoeuvre in trying to restore


the economy, and therefore, national self-confidence, may well


be limited, by continuing partisan deadlock between the White House


and Congress. Our system of governance still has lots of


virtues. It is not totally broken, but it is badly impaired by the


extreme partisanship, and the crippling polarisation that'


inflicts our politics right now. The essence of politics -- that


inflicts our politics right now. It comes to two things, wisdom and


foresight on the one hand, and the ability to compromise on the other.


There is not a lot of either of those, and there is a dick dirth of


compromise in this town. -- a particular dirth of compromise in


this town. While the foreign experts in Washington might admit


the world has become a more polar place to the average America, it is


the economic crisis that has blunted their appetite for global


activism, if the economy improves then things could simply be back to


normal. If it stagnates and falls back further, this country's


appetite for acting on the world stage, may be d diminished for many


years to come. -- may be diminished for many years to come. As for the


grander sweep of history, there are plenty who assume this country has


passed the peak of its power. But pride in America remains so strong,


that any candidate who told the public that, would soon come under


a hail of political fire. Instead, America cleefs to the


promise, that economic -- cleaves to the promise that an economic


recovery can restore an order that Americans have known all their


lives. Jeremy's duet with Vince Cable will be along in just a


moment. First, the Oscar-winning French actress, Juliette Binoche,


who starred in English Patient and Chocolat, returned to the London


stage tonight after a 12-year absence, playing Miss Julie in the


Barbican. Actress, dancer, singer and painter, who resisted the call


of Hollywood and stays in her native country, values her privacy


greatly. I spoke to her earlier at the Barbican, about the


difficulties of playing an aristocratic young woman, who beds


her father's valet on a mid- summer's night. This is a really


tough role to play, she's not a likeable character, she's


coquettish and needy? I'm not playing her like that. I don't


think she's coquettish, it is an idea. She's so doomed, she's doomed


from the start, you know she's going to be doomed? It depends how


you want to look at Miss Julie, how you want to create her. Of course


you can make her coquettish, but why do you need to make the


character like. That it is an idea, but I think, deep down, she wants


to be, she's lost in not knowing what is a woman, what is a man. She


was brought up in both ways. So I think her need of being close is


As the two main characters they are going back and forth, fighting so


hard, trying to understand who they are, and who the other is, and what


is the other person's need and desire. That's why it is


fascinating, and it is over age this idea of Jean and Miss Julie,


you could play any age, it is about passion, love, searching who you


are. She's Miss Julie, it is a kind of hamlet character, she has a


layer -- Hamlet character, she has a layer of trying to discover who


that is. You like stride stride? Because he's generous in his poetic,


he's searching for love and the impossible idea of loving. When you


expect so much, you are disappointed so much. When you look


at the parts that perhaps you haven't played, for example, in the


Schiller, are there parts like that? Whether you play Miss Julie,


and again, from my taste, I prefer Strindberg, he put his heart in


operation, it is all the really opening up, and you really see


what's in. You think Chekhov? more head-orientated, his gorgeous


instruction, gorgeous at going into certain places, what is missing for


me, comparing to Strindberg, he goes into it, and you doesn't know


if he would survive it. He wrote the play in would weeks, only, in a


big crisis. When you read about his relationship with his wife, he was


divorcing as well. So they would kill each other during the day, and


at the end of the day they would make love like crazy together on


the floor, and making up, changing the whole deal. In the play it is


what what happens, they are always going back and forth, it is never


the end. Until there is a moment, she is totally alone. She's totally


I think in acting it is about forgetting yourself. And the


betterment of, you let go because you want to go with the feeling,


with the sensation, first of all, and the thoughts as well, but the


head is not leading, it is the body is leading, and in the body you


have every layer. You have the guts, you have the emotions, you have the


words and the talking and the spirit. If you don't have


everything in one body, the body is useless. The body contains


everything. I wonder what you made of France's astonishment at these


pictures of the future Queen of England topless in France being in


French magazines? I wasn't aware of it, I never look at tabloids,


somebody told me quickly, I'm not even aware of it. It is better not


to be aware of it. Not knowing about it. Being ignorant about it,


when there is this magazine, you turn your eyes away. Are you


surprised, because France has privacy laws, don't you think that


is an invasion of privacy? The law in France is very specific. Even in


the street they cannot take pictures, you can really go after


the photoers and the magazines that are publishing. You wonder why they


took the risk? Because then you can talk about it. Otherwise they


wouldn't care, if nobody was buying, if nobody was looking, they


wouldn't take the pictures. I think you have said, if I'm right, if it


is difficult to embrace success as a French woman, but is it actually


that France finds it difficult to celebrate success? That is quite


true. In a way, but at the same time, recent low I have observed


that there were successful actors and directors and they have been


quite embraced. Maybe when you have your success outside of France, and


it might be a bit more difficult. Who knows? I don't know. Juliette


Binoche thank you very much indeed. That's just about it from us for


tonight. Before we go, political satirists must have thought all


their Christmass had come at once, when Nick Clegg's student tuition


fees a polling appeared on-line. # I'm sorry


# I'm so sorry # There is no easy to way


# I'm sorry Mr Clegg has expressed his delight


at the spoof and encouraged producers from the political


website The Spoke, to release it as a charity single.


We didn't want others to feel left out, we asked the artist to do the


same for Jeremy's interview from last night.


# I was sceptical about the pledge, we agreed collectively to do it, I


take my share of responsibility. # Do you personally believe it was


true? # It was atypical


# I signed the pledge on the basis # That had we been in Government on


our own # On our own


# We would have put through that policy


# Put through that policy # You knew perfectly it was