20/09/2012 Newsnight

Tonight, charges on four counts of murder for Dale Cregan, the man

being held in connection with the deaths of two police officers in

Manchester on Tuesday. Donal MacIntyre investigates the terror

being wrought by feuding criminal families, that has force add

culture of silence in the city. Most people don't like the place,

it is game to them, it's like let's get this person out, it is like

Robinhood, how many people protected him -- Robin Hood, how

many people protected him. We will discuss that with our guest.

Protest and unrest in Pakistan, as the latest images to offend some

Muslims are published in France. I will speak to the prominent Somali

academic, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who fled to America to escape Muslim rage.

We report from America on how anxiety over the country's place in

the world is playing out in the presidential battle. This man says

America's place in the league of nations has fallen under President

Obama, and that he knows what to do about it.

Jeremy and Vince Cable break into song.

# It was a 40-foot ploug Good evening. Tonight the Chief

Constable of Manchester asked people in the city to look at their

conscience and come forward with information. The people have been

too scared to do so until now, despite a �50,000 reward, is

evidence of the impact of the criminal warfare bedeviling the

city. Now police have announced that Dale Cregan has been charged

with the murder of two police officers, and the murder of a

father and son in Manchester earlier this year. A year ago Donal

MacIntyre investigated, for Newsnight, the notorious gang

culture in the city, he has returned to find out more about the

culture of silence. Families and colleagues of the two

fallen officers continued to lay wreaths at the crime scene, and

people are coming to terms with the possibility that Dale Cregan, the

subject of the biggest manhunt in the had history of Greater

Manchester Police, was recognised and offered sanctuary in his own

community of Hattersley, while on the run. In spite of a huge media

campaign, nobody thought fit to inform the authorities. Not even an

unprecedented �50,000 reward could entice those who saw the fugutive

during his 39 days on the run, to hand the suspected murderer in. The

question already being asked by some senior policemen, is what

could possibly motivate communities like this h to offer, support,

sanctuary or protection to gangsters like Dale Cregan. Is it a

matter of retribution or fear of intimidation, or is it a matter of

distrust between the police and the people on some of these streets.

The Chief Constable of Greater Manchester Police, Sir Peter Fahy,

had already allude today what he called, a conspiracy of silence, as

he blamed unnamed members of the community of turning a blind eye.

Are you concerned there is an element of mistrust of the police

in this situation, and it is contributing to the conspiracy of

silence? We need not to be niave that there are criminal networks

that make a lot of money about drug dealing, counterfeiting, stolen

goods, and they don't want the police or any form of authority

interfering with their efforts. does this understate the range of

motives at play. Is gangland wealth and intimidation sufficient to

explain the actions of those who saw Cregan and chose not to speak

out. People in this community want good

policing, they want good law and order. But what they are get

convinced is that actually police forces, such as the Greater

Manchester Police, are able to deliver that, within this community,

24 hours a day, seven days a week. So they turn to other people that

they think can be more effective. On the estate, people are quite

open about fears for their own safety, if they are seen to co-

operate with the police. There are a certain class of people out there

that are keeping somebody like this under wraps, you know, and they are

more or less bullied into not saying anything. People are scared.

I'm scared myself. So I know other people will be scared. It's

frightening because you think to yourself, what will be the

reprecussions, in so many weeks or months down the line, when all this

is gone, you worry. I think some other poor innocent buy stander

could get caught inbetween -- bistander, could get caught

inbetween all of this. Dominic Noonan was handcuffed to two police

officers when men held up the car. Dominic Noonan released on license

after a gun crime, has relied on members of the public to protect

him on the run. There is a phone call, and they say, Dominic needs

moving, a car will turn up, the location will be moved. Only the

driver and one person would know where the next location was.

would somebody who didn't know you, but part of your wider community,

why would they give you sanctuary? Most people don't like the police,

it is game to them, it is like let's get this person out, it is

like Robin Hood, how many people protected him in the community,

that is what it looks like. Those who are familiar with policing in

Northern Ireland recognise that there are clear parallels between

the dynamics at play there during the troubles, and the dynamics that

revealed themselves most graphicly here, in recent days. Distrust in

the police, -- graphicically here, in recent days. Distrust in the

police, fear of retribution, and the lack of confidence in the

police to protect them in the long- term. They are not interested in

the police, the police are out for themselves, they don't look after

the estates round here, these people will come out and protect

those who look after them. Communities feel threatened, they

don't feel they can turn to the traditional providers of community

stability, community organisation. And increasingly people within

those communities identify themselves, because they are hard

men, as being able to deliver the safety that people in the community

want. The most pressing concern here is the ability of the police

to protect the public in the long- term, if they aid the authorities.

What confidence can they have that you will still protect them when

this media circus dies down? would say because of our record in

Greater Manchester Police in bringing down gun crime and gang

activity, you only have to look at the area of Moss Side in man

chester, it is transformed, we had some of those levels of mistrust,

we had to protect witness, brave people came forward and made

statements, and serious criminals have been locked up for a very long

period. As the justice system begins to deal with recent events,

this community has to contemplate the terrible consequences that

resulted from some among them turning a blind eye.

Here in the studio to discuss what this case can tell us about gang

culture in Manchester, we have Peter Walsh, author of Gang War,

the inside story of the Manchester gangs. Ruth Ibegbuna, director of a

youth project in Manchester, and from Birmingham, Deputy Chief

Constable of West Midlands these, Dave Thompson, who leads on gangs

for the Association of Chief Constables, and was formerly a

chief police officers in Manchester. Listening to the film, and also a

number of the local people saying when the caravan moves on, and

after all this you might not be there, and people have a terrible

fear of retribution, no matter how reassuring the words of the Chief

Constable, that is what people were telling Donal MacIntyre today?

the environment of what happened in the last few days it is

understandable, people are really concerned and will be frightened.

There are a couple of points to note. Perhaps it is difficult at

what is a really difficult time. The points Peter Fahy has made,

across the country we have seen gun and knife crime fall. We have seen

successes around taking out serious criminals. That may well be true,

let's just deal with what they are saying, it is not just over the

last few days. These people were saying that consistently they don't

feel that they can trust the police to look after them in the long-term,

that they feel retribution, that you are not there 24 hours, and

there is a real culture of intimidation. Presumably you can't

belittle that. You put out a �50,000, a reward, nobody comes

forward, it is part of the culture? I won't discuss detailed issues

around the policing in Manchester, I will talk around the broader

issue. It would be fair to say, clearly in terms of gangs and

organised criminals, that people are concerned, what I would say

around that is you have to look, look at what's going on in the

courtrooms, look at actual low the high levels of success, clearly the

issues that Sir Peter Fahy talked about, that have happened in Moss

Side, that areing significant. Look at the work that police forces are

doing, that is about information, not evidence of witnesses, lots of

covert activity, lots of new technology being used, you will see

there is some significant work being carried out in those areas. I

understand people are concerned, but I do think people can trust in

policing and look at some real successes. Let's lock at that, you

know, we are obviously not going to talk specifically, we are talking

about lots of guns, grenades. People know about these things. You

know, do you feel that what the woman said, they are not there 24

hours, David Wilson said, the problem is they don't feel the

police are there for them? Thomson is right, they have had a

lot of successes in Manchester. Despite the horrors of the recent

incident, the facts show the problem with gang culture is not as

bad as it was a few years ago or in the 1990s, the figures show.

Recently they have had a lot of successes in the city. Clearly

there is a problem, witness intimidation, people don't feel

they can go to the police, and then feel safe in their own homes.

Someone like Dominic Noonan feels very confident about talking about

these issues. Talking openly about them, that people will come to him,

people are passed along houses sort of thing. We are not talking about

lots and lot of criminal tendencies, we are talking about ordinary women,

men, kids, feeling vulnerable? and growing up in a situation where

it is normal not to go to the police, or grass, as they see it.

When you, Ruth, have been speaking to some of the young people you

deal with, particularly since the shootings on Tuesday, give me some

sense of their reaction? teenagers we have been working with

have been utterly horrified. But I think it is also the area of

Manchester. A lot of the focus in man chest, in terms of gang

violence, that it is in Moss Side, an area synonymous with gang

violence, this has come out of the blue for the young people we work

with, they weren't aware that this area of Manchester could contain

this level of violence. reaction to the murders? Horrifying,

the young people have realised the police can be vulnerable. The young

people feel the police are against them sometimes, they feel it is us

and them sometimes, this has shown, that with the dangerous criminals

the police are vulnerable. Vulnerable, does that mean they are

more likely to go to them if there is a problem, you work with police

officers out of uniform with young people. Will there be a change in

diem thatic, or a sudden, visceral outpouring of fear? There is an

outpouring of fear, but I also think the young people we work with,

they wrote a manifesto, the number one thing was, don't let killers

get away with the crimes. When we pointed out that was the same

policing priority, it is to show them the police are on the same

page, but the trust has to be there, and it is not where it needs to be.

The trust is not there yet? I think it is in some communities, but I

would agree with the points made there, in terms of our relationship

with young people is very important. I think there is an absolute

policing job here to target gun supply and dangerous and violent

people, that is what young people want. By the same token, I think

the work we are doing around gangs now. For me it is much more now

about local authorities, health, about the work going on in schools.

Understanding much more about the gangs and diverting young people

away, and actually giving young people confidence in policing is

really important. Everybody talk about the change that was brought

about in Moss Side, and the thing was, that Moss Side has been

transformed, partly because how many millions of pounds, �6 million

was spent on that. Can you move into an area and do that, you can't

do it in all the areas. Tell me about that whole model, you target

an area, you put a huge amount of police resources in, but you can't

do that everywhere? This happened in the 1990s in Manchester, where

there was a series of drug raids on various estates, that the police

took the view that they would wipe out the people dealing drugs on

each individual estate. You would move from one estate to the other,

eventually the money would run out, or resources would then be

channelled into whatever was the latest fear of the day, it might

have been burglary, or ramraiding or something else. So, in a sense,

you are always chasing the money with the police. Resources are

finite, and there is a limit to what you can do. The follow on from

last year's riots, is there a sense of a change of atmosphere following

the riots, the police had to change their relationship with the people?

They started in Manchester in 2008. They adopted in the areas Ruth was

talking about, in south Manchester, a quite hard-edged approach, where

they used to stop and search using the powers. In one five-month

period they stopped and searched nearly 1,000 people. They were

using orders where they could put people in care and custody if they

felt they were at risk of their lives. And the Osman orders if they

felt people's lives were at risk. It had a great effect on the gang

movement, but you can't sustain that ininfinitely. What about the

riots? I think the policing going on post-riots, there has been a

definite sense that the police are reaching out to the community,

there has been a change of tone. I agree earlier on it was harder-

edged, there has been a change of tone. Much more about working

together with the community, with the police feeling part of the

community. What I'm hoping, after these horrible murders, that the

police don't go back to the hard edge.

There can be nothing, in a sense, good coming out of two dreadful

murder, one thing you think it might be a catalyst for a real

wake-up call on both sides? On both sides, but hopefully not a

retraction back to the more hard- edged policing, what needs to

happen is more engagment with the community. That is happening

fantastically in Manchester, where police officers are talking to

residents, I hope there is more not less of that. Do you see a

variation in the way the policing approach has been across the

country, and the idea that Ruth is saying, in a way, this should be a

catalyst for change in how policing is delivered, perhaps in the city?

Well, I would say, actually, I think this watershed in terms of

lots of work round enforcement, but clearly working with communities

and problem-solving is key. I think that is work that has been going on

in pwhan Chester and lots of other cities. And surely events that have

happened this week, with the deaths of young people involved around

issues of gang violence. There is clearly a moment in time where you

have to reflect whether or not things are right. I do hope we see

not just in Manchester, but across the country, a moment of reflection

about how to go forward. Presumably, it is inescapably that this has

been brought, partly because it is two women have been killed, I

wonder if it was the same reif it was -- reaction if it was male

officers? It wouldn't have made any difference, you have a man with

guns and grenades, he was, well, we can't talk about the circumstances

or whatever happened, at some visceral level. Do you think, Ruth

is saying that actually she feels it will be a catalyst for change,

do you think it is a moment we can grab on to? Ruth was talking about

how it affect the young people, and the fact that they were WPCs, and

for the first time some of the young people that Ruth deals with

have seen the police as vulnerable. Perhaps they have seen them in the

past as strong authority figures, possibly too strong, now they

appreciate they are just as vulnerable as they are. When the

funerals happen, we are told that police officers all over the

country are offering to come in on days off to let the Manchester

police take part in the service, do you feel this is a week of

watershed? It feels like that, there is a feeling it is a city in

shock. The police are in shock. But also the whole community, across

the community, feels this is a very, very shocking, dreadful thing that

happened. In some ways we have to build and grow from it. There has

to be some kind of positive change. Positive change from this, you

accept there is a chance for positive change? I would agree

whatever he says, everyone is in shock. Let's not underestimate,

there is a lot of change and work going on already. Actually, we are

really committed in terms of this problem. It cannot be solved by the

police, we have a clear role to do. We have lots of agencies and

community are central to a sustainable solution to the issues

of gang violence. The Pakistan army has today been

battling with demonstrators in Islamabad, where they want to

target the US embassy over the American-made anti-Islam video. And

adding to the protesters' anger is the publication in a French

satirical magazine, of cartoons mocking the Prophet Mohammed, also

in France, Salman Rushdie has said in an interview for Le Monde that

something has gone wrong in the culture of Islam, saying it has

gone in on itself like a self- inflicted wound. We will hear from

our guests, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, in a moment, first from our diplomatic

editor, Mark Urban. Tell us about the scale of the protests? This is

going on for ten days now, if you go back to the 11th September, very

significant day for the United States, that is when the first

protest started in Cairo, they are often a very influential country in

the Arab world, spurred on by a Salafist militant Islamic TV

station because of this video. That, on the same afternoon, spread to

Libya, where the events took place in Benghazi, that cost the

ambassador Christopher Stephen, and three others, their lives. A couple

of days later, the United States embassy in Yemen was invaded by an

angry mob. They smashed the place up. Big problems there. And then,

the follow -- following day, a Friday, protests across the Arab

and Islamic world, with particular problems in Sudan and Tunisia,

where a total of ten people were killed. In Sudan British and German

missions were attacked as well as American sites. On it went, the

15th you had the incident at Camp Bastion, an elaborate attack,

killed two US Marines, 15 Taliban also lost their lives. The Taliban

claimed in the communique, one of the reasons was this video, again,

but this elaborate attack of probably put together before they

had heard of that. And then, of course, when we thought the whole

thing was dying away, in the last few days, this issue of the French

magazine, Charlie Hebdo, publishing this, a rather be a secure

satirical magazine, has led to France tightening security in 20

countries, you see at the centre of the image, Beirut, where Hezbollah

has called protests. In Pakistan, still after shocks from the

original video affair, with demonstrations going on today in

Islamabad, very angry, very violent, the Pakistan Army saying that

demonstrations after Friday prayers will be banned tomorrow. The same

thing has happened in Tunisia. Friday prayers tomorrow being the

big moment. But tell me, how nervous do you think is the west

about how to calibrate its response to all this? Having been in

Washington last week, making the piece, we will see in a few minutes,

I think policy makers are fairly bewildered, many of them, they have

tried all sorts of different approaches to securing their

interests, to spreading democracy in the Arab world, from the really

heavy approach of Iraq, through to the lighter touch of Libya, and

staying out all together in many place, still they have these

reactions. The truth is, the western policy-making perspective

is defeated by a lot of this. The rational approach, killing Osama

Bin Laden, for example, did not touch off this type of event. It is

the symbolic insults to Islam which have shown themselves so powerful,

from the Danish cartoons, to the burning of Korans at Bagram Air

Base, that was avoidable, but in so many countries like France and the

United States, find themselves defending their constitutional

freedom of speech issues, you have this irreducable clash of the two

cultures. Thank you very much indeed. Joining me now from Boston

is the former Dutch MP, author and political campaigner, she's, in

recent years, denounced her Islamic faith, and claims Islam is an

ideology inherently flawed and pose as bigger threat than we think. Her

own views have led to death threats. First of all, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, how

do you think, having heard what Mark Urban was saying, about how

the west should respond, to essentially what is a symbolic

issue for Islam, and slightly the bewilderment at that, what do you

think the west should do? I think the west should stand for its

principles, I think that President Obama, Secretary of State Clinton

and other western leaders of the western world should explain over

and over again to their colleagues in Arab-Muslim countries that what

they are demanding is something that they as elected politicians

simply cannot give to them. There is constitutionally protected

speech, the film that we have seen, cartoons, all that kind of thing is

protected in the United States by the first amendment. They must do

not have the power to change any of that. The fact that the Secretary

of State in the United States says this film is bad and reprehensible,

and disgusting, that is an expression of her opinion. It is

not a promise to introduce legislation to curb that. But if

you listen to the Prime Minister of Turkey, the President of Egypt, the

Pakistanies, all of these Muslim countries, what they really are

seeking is an amendment of the First Amendment. That just isn't

going to happen. Should there not be laws against inciting, as it

were, religious hatred, there are such laws in some countries, the UK.

Presumably those are laws you think should exist, no? I do not think

such laws should exist. If you look at the history of the freedom of

speech, the freedom of conscience, the freedom of expression, in

Europe and in America, this is a culmination of the victory of the

individual, as a human being. It has become one of the most basic

human rights, this wasn't achieved overnight. Hundreds of years went

before that. When all these freedoms were not available. Do we

want to appease people in the -- Muslim and ar rash world who are

not there, by indulging them and -- and Arab world who are not there

yet, by indulging them, and then saying you guys should catch up

with us, and our leaders explaining we won't go back. Do you accept

that Muslims have the right to be offended, frirsly, by the film, and

-- firstly, by the film, and now the cartoons and cartoon of the

past, do you think they have the right to be offended by these

things? The freedom of speech, freedom of expression that is

constitutionally set in place, that protects the right to offend. It

doesn't protect good manners. I do not want to insult anyone, and I

hate people insulting one another, and insulting one another's

religions, et cetera, but that is what it protected. So there is no

point pretending otherwise. In the United States now, and I am

following the elections, and what the Republicans say about the

Democrats hurts Democratic people deeply, what Democrats say about

Republicans hurt them deeply, that is protected. You do accept that

the majority of Muslims who are offended by the film and the

cartoon, are offended, they are not violent, they are simply offended,

presumably they have the right to feel offended if they feel their

religion or culture is under attack? Absolutely, the majority is

offended, but in their offence, I think what they should do, the

majority of Muslims, for them to be credible, is for them to object to

real human suffering. Let me give you an example. You just reported

on Pakistan. In mid-August, I believe it was the 14th of August,

a 14-year-old girl was raped in Pakistan, by five men, that was

national news, there was no demonstration of any kind, no

outrage of any kind. This happens throughout the Muslim world, all

the time. There is no outrage in the Muslim world when human life is

taken, when churches are burned, when synagogues are burned, when

Muslim, I know, a homicideal few, when they say and do bad things to

others, including Muslims, that is Sufi, and Shias, but then there is

some video somewhere in the south of California, and people in Egypt

know about it, I'm sorry, it's not credible. Thank you very much for

joining you, we have to stop you there.

Much of the anger we have just been discussing has focused sharply on

America and that of its foreign policy. What direction it takes in

the years to come may well be something determined in the US

presidential election, but both Barack Obama and Mitt Romney are

acutely aware that promises of for more rays into foreign lands will

not go down well with an already war-weary American electorate. It

is not just the diplomatic and military might on the wane, it

might be trade over superpowers in the future such as China. For his

own assessment of whether America remains top dog and for how long,

our own diplomatic editor jouornied there. On Baltimore's seafront,

they have been honouring the past and contemplating the present. It

is 200 years since the US and Britain began the war of 1812, a

muddled and unnecessary little spat about trade rights. More recently,

the US-UK relationship has been one of those comforting, unchanging

poles, around this country has fixed its foreign policy. But as

the country heads for elections, economic wos have made it more

inward-look -- woes, have made it more inward-looking, less sure that

American supremacy can be taken for granted. We have to be careful, we

are close to losing it, in my opinion. I think China is very hot

on our heels. What really ticked me off when Obama first became

President was he went all around the world apologising for

everything we did. If we didn't do what we did there would be

countries in a lot worse shape. Foreign policy issues narrowly

defined, relations with Russia, even whether America should attack

Iran, have not played a big part in this campaign, not yet, any way,

but, looming just beneath the surface, there is an obsession with

America's status in the world, and whether it has declined under paib.

His opponents -- President Obama. His opponents insist it has. Last

week this country commemorated the victims of 9/11, President Obama

laid a wreath at the Pentagon, and reminded people how he had dealt

with Al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda's leadership has been devastated.

Osama Bin Laden will never threaten us again. The US may still be the

world's top military power, but, in the aftermath of that attack, it

waged two hugely costly war. America is suffering from

intervention fatigue. American concern about terrorism is

way, way down, it figures in the low single digits among people

polled as to what their principal concerns are in the world. In

addition to that, there is both a weariness and wariness about

American intervention in the world, which is pegged to Iraq and

Afghanistan, and the possibility of having to take action in Syria.

Sensing this national mood, the President has, in his campaigning,

explicitly turned his attention to the battle at home, for jobs.

evening, over the last decade we have spent a trillion dollars on

war, at a time of rising debt and hard economic times. Now we must

invest in America's greatest resource, our people, America, it

is time to focus on nation building here at home.

The Romney campaign, and its more agrossive supporters, accuses

President Obama of abandoning allies, shrinking from challenges,

and leaving the world stage to others. As a Navy SEAL I fought, so

I would never have to see my President bow to anyone.

Mitt Romney accuses President Obama of presiding over a avoidable

decline. In American century we lead the free world, and the free

world leads the entire world. If we don't have the strength or vision

to lead, then other powers will take our place. Pulling history in

a very different direction. The war of 1812 pitted Britain as the pre-

eminent naval and trading power of its day against an upstart newcomer,

America. So two centuries on, has the tide of history caught up with

the US? Is this country now in terminal decline?

This man insists it is not, and has been quoted by both presidential

candidates for saying so. Americans are conflicted, they have

contradictory impulses in their foreign policy, and always have.

They have an impulse to try to shape the world in ways that they

think are conducive to their interests, and their principles.

They also have an impulse that sounds like too much of a burden,

it's too expensive, we don't really want that much role in the world.

Often these things coincide almost exactly at the same time. If it'ser

in row sis you are looking for in a super-- neurosis you are looking

for in a superpower, America is your country. The recession has

dented the confidence of many Americans. It is Mansfield Ohio,

unemployment is 11% and the community is struggling to cope

with the closure of a local car plant. Until town like Mansfield,

located in a key marginal state recover, the economy will dominate

their concerns, and candidates for office will act accordingly.

The Republican candidate, Mitt Romney, came here last week, his

pitch is that, as a successful businessman, he knows how to turn

things round. America does not have to have the long face we have right

now under this President, we can get America going again, growing

again, I know how to do it. There is an area where the core issues of

this campaign, jobs and the economy, do touch on foreign policy. That's

trade practices and relations between the great powers. In

particular, China. PR Machine Works played host to Mr

Romney, it has come through the recession without redundancies, but

the boss here, a local Republican candidate, sees a direct connection

between the local economy and wider world. I think we have to stand up

to China, and tell them we want them to be part of the

international community, and part of the international trade, but

they have to play by the rules. That simple. You are very

interdependant with the Chinese, they boy a lot of US Government

debt, they have big investments here, can you afford a trade war,

or some kind of political confrontation with China? No, I

don't think we can afford a trade war, but we can sit down at the

table and work towards getting that level playing field. It is in

everybody's interest, including the Chinese, to get that done.

Thank you Ohio, we will get it done. Tough talk on China and Russia may

please some, but in the tough corridors of power Mr Romney has

drawn fire. His convention speech didn't mention soldiers in

Afghanistan, his one foreign trip drew flack, as did his recent

interference on violence in Egypt. So foreign policy is an area where

he has scored poorly against the President, and either man is

conditioned by the realities of power. One thing that won't change

with whoever is in the White House is the interests, we have to

protect those interests, having a bad relationship right out of the

gate with China, is not a hopeful way to protect our interests, we

want a peaceful China on the world stage. It is good for all of us, it

raises the level of all boats. I think that the first, and most

important issue that any President will face after the redevelopment

and the continued reconstitution of our own economy, will be China.

Followed by the question of Iran and her nuclear capabilities, and

then into probably the management of the called Arab Spring.

And whoever wins, their latitude for manoeuvre in trying to restore

the economy, and therefore, national self-confidence, may well

be limited, by continuing partisan deadlock between the White House

and Congress. Our system of governance still has lots of

virtues. It is not totally broken, but it is badly impaired by the

extreme partisanship, and the crippling polarisation that'

inflicts our politics right now. The essence of politics -- that

inflicts our politics right now. It comes to two things, wisdom and

foresight on the one hand, and the ability to compromise on the other.

There is not a lot of either of those, and there is a dick dirth of

compromise in this town. -- a particular dirth of compromise in

this town. While the foreign experts in Washington might admit

the world has become a more polar place to the average America, it is

the economic crisis that has blunted their appetite for global

activism, if the economy improves then things could simply be back to

normal. If it stagnates and falls back further, this country's

appetite for acting on the world stage, may be d diminished for many

years to come. -- may be diminished for many years to come. As for the

grander sweep of history, there are plenty who assume this country has

passed the peak of its power. But pride in America remains so strong,

that any candidate who told the public that, would soon come under

a hail of political fire. Instead, America cleefs to the

promise, that economic -- cleaves to the promise that an economic

recovery can restore an order that Americans have known all their

lives. Jeremy's duet with Vince Cable will be along in just a

moment. First, the Oscar-winning French actress, Juliette Binoche,

who starred in English Patient and Chocolat, returned to the London

stage tonight after a 12-year absence, playing Miss Julie in the

Barbican. Actress, dancer, singer and painter, who resisted the call

of Hollywood and stays in her native country, values her privacy

greatly. I spoke to her earlier at the Barbican, about the

difficulties of playing an aristocratic young woman, who beds

her father's valet on a mid- summer's night. This is a really

tough role to play, she's not a likeable character, she's

coquettish and needy? I'm not playing her like that. I don't

think she's coquettish, it is an idea. She's so doomed, she's doomed

from the start, you know she's going to be doomed? It depends how

you want to look at Miss Julie, how you want to create her. Of course

you can make her coquettish, but why do you need to make the

character like. That it is an idea, but I think, deep down, she wants

to be, she's lost in not knowing what is a woman, what is a man. She

was brought up in both ways. So I think her need of being close is

As the two main characters they are going back and forth, fighting so

hard, trying to understand who they are, and who the other is, and what

is the other person's need and desire. That's why it is

fascinating, and it is over age this idea of Jean and Miss Julie,

you could play any age, it is about passion, love, searching who you

are. She's Miss Julie, it is a kind of hamlet character, she has a

layer -- Hamlet character, she has a layer of trying to discover who

that is. You like stride stride? Because he's generous in his poetic,

he's searching for love and the impossible idea of loving. When you

expect so much, you are disappointed so much. When you look

at the parts that perhaps you haven't played, for example, in the

Schiller, are there parts like that? Whether you play Miss Julie,

and again, from my taste, I prefer Strindberg, he put his heart in

operation, it is all the really opening up, and you really see

what's in. You think Chekhov? more head-orientated, his gorgeous

instruction, gorgeous at going into certain places, what is missing for

me, comparing to Strindberg, he goes into it, and you doesn't know

if he would survive it. He wrote the play in would weeks, only, in a

big crisis. When you read about his relationship with his wife, he was

divorcing as well. So they would kill each other during the day, and

at the end of the day they would make love like crazy together on

the floor, and making up, changing the whole deal. In the play it is

what what happens, they are always going back and forth, it is never

the end. Until there is a moment, she is totally alone. She's totally

I think in acting it is about forgetting yourself. And the

betterment of, you let go because you want to go with the feeling,

with the sensation, first of all, and the thoughts as well, but the

head is not leading, it is the body is leading, and in the body you

have every layer. You have the guts, you have the emotions, you have the

words and the talking and the spirit. If you don't have

everything in one body, the body is useless. The body contains

everything. I wonder what you made of France's astonishment at these

pictures of the future Queen of England topless in France being in

French magazines? I wasn't aware of it, I never look at tabloids,

somebody told me quickly, I'm not even aware of it. It is better not

to be aware of it. Not knowing about it. Being ignorant about it,

when there is this magazine, you turn your eyes away. Are you

surprised, because France has privacy laws, don't you think that

is an invasion of privacy? The law in France is very specific. Even in

the street they cannot take pictures, you can really go after

the photoers and the magazines that are publishing. You wonder why they

took the risk? Because then you can talk about it. Otherwise they

wouldn't care, if nobody was buying, if nobody was looking, they

wouldn't take the pictures. I think you have said, if I'm right, if it

is difficult to embrace success as a French woman, but is it actually

that France finds it difficult to celebrate success? That is quite

true. In a way, but at the same time, recent low I have observed

that there were successful actors and directors and they have been

quite embraced. Maybe when you have your success outside of France, and

it might be a bit more difficult. Who knows? I don't know. Juliette

Binoche thank you very much indeed. That's just about it from us for

tonight. Before we go, political satirists must have thought all

their Christmass had come at once, when Nick Clegg's student tuition

fees a polling appeared on-line. # I'm sorry

# I'm so sorry # There is no easy to way

# I'm sorry Mr Clegg has expressed his delight

at the spoof and encouraged producers from the political

website The Spoke, to release it as a charity single.

We didn't want others to feel left out, we asked the artist to do the

same for Jeremy's interview from last night.

# I was sceptical about the pledge, we agreed collectively to do it, I

take my share of responsibility. # Do you personally believe it was

true? # It was atypical

# I signed the pledge on the basis # That had we been in Government on

our own # On our own

# We would have put through that policy

# Put through that policy # You knew perfectly it was