20/09/2012 Newsnight


20/09/2012

Stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark, including Manchester's gang culture, Ayaan Hirsi Ali on the Muslim protests, Mark Urban on America and Juliette Binoche.


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Transcript


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Tonight, charges on four counts of murder for Dale Cregan, the man

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being held in connection with the deaths of two police officers in

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Manchester on Tuesday. Donal MacIntyre investigates the terror

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being wrought by feuding criminal families, that has force add

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culture of silence in the city. Most people don't like the place,

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it is game to them, it's like let's get this person out, it is like

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Robinhood, how many people protected him -- Robin Hood, how

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many people protected him. We will discuss that with our guest.

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Protest and unrest in Pakistan, as the latest images to offend some

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Muslims are published in France. I will speak to the prominent Somali

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academic, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who fled to America to escape Muslim rage.

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We report from America on how anxiety over the country's place in

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the world is playing out in the presidential battle. This man says

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America's place in the league of nations has fallen under President

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Obama, and that he knows what to do about it.

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Jeremy and Vince Cable break into song.

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# It was a 40-foot ploug Good evening. Tonight the Chief

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Constable of Manchester asked people in the city to look at their

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conscience and come forward with information. The people have been

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too scared to do so until now, despite a �50,000 reward, is

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evidence of the impact of the criminal warfare bedeviling the

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city. Now police have announced that Dale Cregan has been charged

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with the murder of two police officers, and the murder of a

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father and son in Manchester earlier this year. A year ago Donal

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MacIntyre investigated, for Newsnight, the notorious gang

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culture in the city, he has returned to find out more about the

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culture of silence. Families and colleagues of the two

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fallen officers continued to lay wreaths at the crime scene, and

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people are coming to terms with the possibility that Dale Cregan, the

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subject of the biggest manhunt in the had history of Greater

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Manchester Police, was recognised and offered sanctuary in his own

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community of Hattersley, while on the run. In spite of a huge media

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campaign, nobody thought fit to inform the authorities. Not even an

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unprecedented �50,000 reward could entice those who saw the fugutive

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during his 39 days on the run, to hand the suspected murderer in. The

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question already being asked by some senior policemen, is what

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could possibly motivate communities like this h to offer, support,

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sanctuary or protection to gangsters like Dale Cregan. Is it a

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matter of retribution or fear of intimidation, or is it a matter of

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distrust between the police and the people on some of these streets.

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The Chief Constable of Greater Manchester Police, Sir Peter Fahy,

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had already allude today what he called, a conspiracy of silence, as

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he blamed unnamed members of the community of turning a blind eye.

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Are you concerned there is an element of mistrust of the police

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in this situation, and it is contributing to the conspiracy of

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silence? We need not to be niave that there are criminal networks

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that make a lot of money about drug dealing, counterfeiting, stolen

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goods, and they don't want the police or any form of authority

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interfering with their efforts. does this understate the range of

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motives at play. Is gangland wealth and intimidation sufficient to

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explain the actions of those who saw Cregan and chose not to speak

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out. People in this community want good

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policing, they want good law and order. But what they are get

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convinced is that actually police forces, such as the Greater

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Manchester Police, are able to deliver that, within this community,

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24 hours a day, seven days a week. So they turn to other people that

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they think can be more effective. On the estate, people are quite

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open about fears for their own safety, if they are seen to co-

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operate with the police. There are a certain class of people out there

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that are keeping somebody like this under wraps, you know, and they are

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more or less bullied into not saying anything. People are scared.

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I'm scared myself. So I know other people will be scared. It's

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frightening because you think to yourself, what will be the

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reprecussions, in so many weeks or months down the line, when all this

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is gone, you worry. I think some other poor innocent buy stander

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could get caught inbetween -- bistander, could get caught

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inbetween all of this. Dominic Noonan was handcuffed to two police

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officers when men held up the car. Dominic Noonan released on license

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after a gun crime, has relied on members of the public to protect

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him on the run. There is a phone call, and they say, Dominic needs

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moving, a car will turn up, the location will be moved. Only the

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driver and one person would know where the next location was.

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would somebody who didn't know you, but part of your wider community,

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why would they give you sanctuary? Most people don't like the police,

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it is game to them, it is like let's get this person out, it is

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like Robin Hood, how many people protected him in the community,

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that is what it looks like. Those who are familiar with policing in

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Northern Ireland recognise that there are clear parallels between

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the dynamics at play there during the troubles, and the dynamics that

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revealed themselves most graphicly here, in recent days. Distrust in

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the police, -- graphicically here, in recent days. Distrust in the

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police, fear of retribution, and the lack of confidence in the

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police to protect them in the long- term. They are not interested in

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the police, the police are out for themselves, they don't look after

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the estates round here, these people will come out and protect

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those who look after them. Communities feel threatened, they

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don't feel they can turn to the traditional providers of community

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stability, community organisation. And increasingly people within

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those communities identify themselves, because they are hard

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men, as being able to deliver the safety that people in the community

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want. The most pressing concern here is the ability of the police

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to protect the public in the long- term, if they aid the authorities.

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What confidence can they have that you will still protect them when

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this media circus dies down? would say because of our record in

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Greater Manchester Police in bringing down gun crime and gang

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activity, you only have to look at the area of Moss Side in man

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chester, it is transformed, we had some of those levels of mistrust,

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we had to protect witness, brave people came forward and made

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statements, and serious criminals have been locked up for a very long

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period. As the justice system begins to deal with recent events,

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this community has to contemplate the terrible consequences that

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resulted from some among them turning a blind eye.

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Here in the studio to discuss what this case can tell us about gang

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culture in Manchester, we have Peter Walsh, author of Gang War,

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the inside story of the Manchester gangs. Ruth Ibegbuna, director of a

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youth project in Manchester, and from Birmingham, Deputy Chief

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Constable of West Midlands these, Dave Thompson, who leads on gangs

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for the Association of Chief Constables, and was formerly a

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chief police officers in Manchester. Listening to the film, and also a

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number of the local people saying when the caravan moves on, and

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after all this you might not be there, and people have a terrible

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fear of retribution, no matter how reassuring the words of the Chief

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Constable, that is what people were telling Donal MacIntyre today?

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the environment of what happened in the last few days it is

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understandable, people are really concerned and will be frightened.

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There are a couple of points to note. Perhaps it is difficult at

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what is a really difficult time. The points Peter Fahy has made,

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across the country we have seen gun and knife crime fall. We have seen

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successes around taking out serious criminals. That may well be true,

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let's just deal with what they are saying, it is not just over the

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last few days. These people were saying that consistently they don't

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feel that they can trust the police to look after them in the long-term,

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that they feel retribution, that you are not there 24 hours, and

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there is a real culture of intimidation. Presumably you can't

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belittle that. You put out a �50,000, a reward, nobody comes

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forward, it is part of the culture? I won't discuss detailed issues

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around the policing in Manchester, I will talk around the broader

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issue. It would be fair to say, clearly in terms of gangs and

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organised criminals, that people are concerned, what I would say

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around that is you have to look, look at what's going on in the

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courtrooms, look at actual low the high levels of success, clearly the

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issues that Sir Peter Fahy talked about, that have happened in Moss

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Side, that areing significant. Look at the work that police forces are

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doing, that is about information, not evidence of witnesses, lots of

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covert activity, lots of new technology being used, you will see

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there is some significant work being carried out in those areas. I

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understand people are concerned, but I do think people can trust in

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policing and look at some real successes. Let's lock at that, you

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know, we are obviously not going to talk specifically, we are talking

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about lots of guns, grenades. People know about these things. You

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know, do you feel that what the woman said, they are not there 24

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hours, David Wilson said, the problem is they don't feel the

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police are there for them? Thomson is right, they have had a

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lot of successes in Manchester. Despite the horrors of the recent

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incident, the facts show the problem with gang culture is not as

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bad as it was a few years ago or in the 1990s, the figures show.

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Recently they have had a lot of successes in the city. Clearly

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there is a problem, witness intimidation, people don't feel

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they can go to the police, and then feel safe in their own homes.

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Someone like Dominic Noonan feels very confident about talking about

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these issues. Talking openly about them, that people will come to him,

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people are passed along houses sort of thing. We are not talking about

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lots and lot of criminal tendencies, we are talking about ordinary women,

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men, kids, feeling vulnerable? and growing up in a situation where

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it is normal not to go to the police, or grass, as they see it.

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When you, Ruth, have been speaking to some of the young people you

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deal with, particularly since the shootings on Tuesday, give me some

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sense of their reaction? teenagers we have been working with

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have been utterly horrified. But I think it is also the area of

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Manchester. A lot of the focus in man chest, in terms of gang

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violence, that it is in Moss Side, an area synonymous with gang

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violence, this has come out of the blue for the young people we work

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with, they weren't aware that this area of Manchester could contain

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this level of violence. reaction to the murders? Horrifying,

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the young people have realised the police can be vulnerable. The young

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people feel the police are against them sometimes, they feel it is us

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and them sometimes, this has shown, that with the dangerous criminals

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the police are vulnerable. Vulnerable, does that mean they are

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more likely to go to them if there is a problem, you work with police

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officers out of uniform with young people. Will there be a change in

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diem thatic, or a sudden, visceral outpouring of fear? There is an

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outpouring of fear, but I also think the young people we work with,

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they wrote a manifesto, the number one thing was, don't let killers

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get away with the crimes. When we pointed out that was the same

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policing priority, it is to show them the police are on the same

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page, but the trust has to be there, and it is not where it needs to be.

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The trust is not there yet? I think it is in some communities, but I

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would agree with the points made there, in terms of our relationship

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with young people is very important. I think there is an absolute

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policing job here to target gun supply and dangerous and violent

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people, that is what young people want. By the same token, I think

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the work we are doing around gangs now. For me it is much more now

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about local authorities, health, about the work going on in schools.

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Understanding much more about the gangs and diverting young people

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away, and actually giving young people confidence in policing is

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really important. Everybody talk about the change that was brought

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about in Moss Side, and the thing was, that Moss Side has been

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transformed, partly because how many millions of pounds, �6 million

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was spent on that. Can you move into an area and do that, you can't

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do it in all the areas. Tell me about that whole model, you target

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an area, you put a huge amount of police resources in, but you can't

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do that everywhere? This happened in the 1990s in Manchester, where

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there was a series of drug raids on various estates, that the police

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took the view that they would wipe out the people dealing drugs on

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each individual estate. You would move from one estate to the other,

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eventually the money would run out, or resources would then be

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channelled into whatever was the latest fear of the day, it might

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have been burglary, or ramraiding or something else. So, in a sense,

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you are always chasing the money with the police. Resources are

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finite, and there is a limit to what you can do. The follow on from

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last year's riots, is there a sense of a change of atmosphere following

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the riots, the police had to change their relationship with the people?

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They started in Manchester in 2008. They adopted in the areas Ruth was

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talking about, in south Manchester, a quite hard-edged approach, where

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they used to stop and search using the powers. In one five-month

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period they stopped and searched nearly 1,000 people. They were

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using orders where they could put people in care and custody if they

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felt they were at risk of their lives. And the Osman orders if they

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felt people's lives were at risk. It had a great effect on the gang

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movement, but you can't sustain that ininfinitely. What about the

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riots? I think the policing going on post-riots, there has been a

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definite sense that the police are reaching out to the community,

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there has been a change of tone. I agree earlier on it was harder-

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edged, there has been a change of tone. Much more about working

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together with the community, with the police feeling part of the

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community. What I'm hoping, after these horrible murders, that the

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police don't go back to the hard edge.

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There can be nothing, in a sense, good coming out of two dreadful

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murder, one thing you think it might be a catalyst for a real

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wake-up call on both sides? On both sides, but hopefully not a

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retraction back to the more hard- edged policing, what needs to

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happen is more engagment with the community. That is happening

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fantastically in Manchester, where police officers are talking to

:15:43.:15:47.

residents, I hope there is more not less of that. Do you see a

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variation in the way the policing approach has been across the

:15:50.:15:56.

country, and the idea that Ruth is saying, in a way, this should be a

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catalyst for change in how policing is delivered, perhaps in the city?

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Well, I would say, actually, I think this watershed in terms of

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lots of work round enforcement, but clearly working with communities

:16:09.:16:13.

and problem-solving is key. I think that is work that has been going on

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in pwhan Chester and lots of other cities. And surely events that have

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happened this week, with the deaths of young people involved around

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issues of gang violence. There is clearly a moment in time where you

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have to reflect whether or not things are right. I do hope we see

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not just in Manchester, but across the country, a moment of reflection

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about how to go forward. Presumably, it is inescapably that this has

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been brought, partly because it is two women have been killed, I

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wonder if it was the same reif it was -- reaction if it was male

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officers? It wouldn't have made any difference, you have a man with

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guns and grenades, he was, well, we can't talk about the circumstances

:16:59.:17:03.

or whatever happened, at some visceral level. Do you think, Ruth

:17:03.:17:07.

is saying that actually she feels it will be a catalyst for change,

:17:07.:17:12.

do you think it is a moment we can grab on to? Ruth was talking about

:17:12.:17:16.

how it affect the young people, and the fact that they were WPCs, and

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for the first time some of the young people that Ruth deals with

:17:19.:17:23.

have seen the police as vulnerable. Perhaps they have seen them in the

:17:24.:17:28.

past as strong authority figures, possibly too strong, now they

:17:28.:17:31.

appreciate they are just as vulnerable as they are. When the

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funerals happen, we are told that police officers all over the

:17:34.:17:38.

country are offering to come in on days off to let the Manchester

:17:38.:17:42.

police take part in the service, do you feel this is a week of

:17:42.:17:46.

watershed? It feels like that, there is a feeling it is a city in

:17:46.:17:50.

shock. The police are in shock. But also the whole community, across

:17:50.:17:55.

the community, feels this is a very, very shocking, dreadful thing that

:17:55.:17:59.

happened. In some ways we have to build and grow from it. There has

:17:59.:18:02.

to be some kind of positive change. Positive change from this, you

:18:02.:18:08.

accept there is a chance for positive change? I would agree

:18:08.:18:11.

whatever he says, everyone is in shock. Let's not underestimate,

:18:11.:18:15.

there is a lot of change and work going on already. Actually, we are

:18:15.:18:18.

really committed in terms of this problem. It cannot be solved by the

:18:18.:18:24.

police, we have a clear role to do. We have lots of agencies and

:18:24.:18:27.

community are central to a sustainable solution to the issues

:18:27.:18:31.

of gang violence. The Pakistan army has today been

:18:31.:18:34.

battling with demonstrators in Islamabad, where they want to

:18:34.:18:39.

target the US embassy over the American-made anti-Islam video. And

:18:39.:18:45.

adding to the protesters' anger is the publication in a French

:18:45.:18:52.

satirical magazine, of cartoons mocking the Prophet Mohammed, also

:18:52.:18:56.

in France, Salman Rushdie has said in an interview for Le Monde that

:18:56.:19:02.

something has gone wrong in the culture of Islam, saying it has

:19:02.:19:07.

gone in on itself like a self- inflicted wound. We will hear from

:19:07.:19:10.

our guests, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, in a moment, first from our diplomatic

:19:10.:19:14.

editor, Mark Urban. Tell us about the scale of the protests? This is

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going on for ten days now, if you go back to the 11th September, very

:19:18.:19:21.

significant day for the United States, that is when the first

:19:21.:19:24.

protest started in Cairo, they are often a very influential country in

:19:24.:19:29.

the Arab world, spurred on by a Salafist militant Islamic TV

:19:29.:19:33.

station because of this video. That, on the same afternoon, spread to

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Libya, where the events took place in Benghazi, that cost the

:19:37.:19:42.

ambassador Christopher Stephen, and three others, their lives. A couple

:19:42.:19:49.

of days later, the United States embassy in Yemen was invaded by an

:19:49.:19:57.

angry mob. They smashed the place up. Big problems there. And then,

:19:57.:20:03.

the follow -- following day, a Friday, protests across the Arab

:20:03.:20:07.

and Islamic world, with particular problems in Sudan and Tunisia,

:20:07.:20:11.

where a total of ten people were killed. In Sudan British and German

:20:11.:20:16.

missions were attacked as well as American sites. On it went, the

:20:16.:20:21.

15th you had the incident at Camp Bastion, an elaborate attack,

:20:21.:20:25.

killed two US Marines, 15 Taliban also lost their lives. The Taliban

:20:25.:20:30.

claimed in the communique, one of the reasons was this video, again,

:20:30.:20:32.

but this elaborate attack of probably put together before they

:20:32.:20:36.

had heard of that. And then, of course, when we thought the whole

:20:36.:20:42.

thing was dying away, in the last few days, this issue of the French

:20:42.:20:47.

magazine, Charlie Hebdo, publishing this, a rather be a secure

:20:47.:20:50.

satirical magazine, has led to France tightening security in 20

:20:50.:20:54.

countries, you see at the centre of the image, Beirut, where Hezbollah

:20:54.:20:57.

has called protests. In Pakistan, still after shocks from the

:20:57.:21:00.

original video affair, with demonstrations going on today in

:21:00.:21:05.

Islamabad, very angry, very violent, the Pakistan Army saying that

:21:05.:21:08.

demonstrations after Friday prayers will be banned tomorrow. The same

:21:08.:21:11.

thing has happened in Tunisia. Friday prayers tomorrow being the

:21:11.:21:15.

big moment. But tell me, how nervous do you think is the west

:21:15.:21:19.

about how to calibrate its response to all this? Having been in

:21:19.:21:23.

Washington last week, making the piece, we will see in a few minutes,

:21:23.:21:27.

I think policy makers are fairly bewildered, many of them, they have

:21:27.:21:30.

tried all sorts of different approaches to securing their

:21:30.:21:33.

interests, to spreading democracy in the Arab world, from the really

:21:33.:21:37.

heavy approach of Iraq, through to the lighter touch of Libya, and

:21:37.:21:40.

staying out all together in many place, still they have these

:21:40.:21:44.

reactions. The truth is, the western policy-making perspective

:21:44.:21:47.

is defeated by a lot of this. The rational approach, killing Osama

:21:47.:21:51.

Bin Laden, for example, did not touch off this type of event. It is

:21:51.:21:56.

the symbolic insults to Islam which have shown themselves so powerful,

:21:56.:22:01.

from the Danish cartoons, to the burning of Korans at Bagram Air

:22:01.:22:06.

Base, that was avoidable, but in so many countries like France and the

:22:06.:22:09.

United States, find themselves defending their constitutional

:22:09.:22:13.

freedom of speech issues, you have this irreducable clash of the two

:22:13.:22:17.

cultures. Thank you very much indeed. Joining me now from Boston

:22:17.:22:22.

is the former Dutch MP, author and political campaigner, she's, in

:22:22.:22:28.

recent years, denounced her Islamic faith, and claims Islam is an

:22:29.:22:33.

ideology inherently flawed and pose as bigger threat than we think. Her

:22:33.:22:38.

own views have led to death threats. First of all, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, how

:22:38.:22:43.

do you think, having heard what Mark Urban was saying, about how

:22:43.:22:46.

the west should respond, to essentially what is a symbolic

:22:46.:22:53.

issue for Islam, and slightly the bewilderment at that, what do you

:22:53.:22:56.

think the west should do? I think the west should stand for its

:22:56.:23:04.

principles, I think that President Obama, Secretary of State Clinton

:23:04.:23:08.

and other western leaders of the western world should explain over

:23:08.:23:13.

and over again to their colleagues in Arab-Muslim countries that what

:23:13.:23:17.

they are demanding is something that they as elected politicians

:23:17.:23:21.

simply cannot give to them. There is constitutionally protected

:23:21.:23:26.

speech, the film that we have seen, cartoons, all that kind of thing is

:23:26.:23:31.

protected in the United States by the first amendment. They must do

:23:31.:23:38.

not have the power to change any of that. The fact that the Secretary

:23:38.:23:43.

of State in the United States says this film is bad and reprehensible,

:23:43.:23:47.

and disgusting, that is an expression of her opinion. It is

:23:47.:23:52.

not a promise to introduce legislation to curb that. But if

:23:52.:23:58.

you listen to the Prime Minister of Turkey, the President of Egypt, the

:23:58.:24:02.

Pakistanies, all of these Muslim countries, what they really are

:24:02.:24:07.

seeking is an amendment of the First Amendment. That just isn't

:24:07.:24:13.

going to happen. Should there not be laws against inciting, as it

:24:14.:24:20.

were, religious hatred, there are such laws in some countries, the UK.

:24:20.:24:26.

Presumably those are laws you think should exist, no? I do not think

:24:26.:24:31.

such laws should exist. If you look at the history of the freedom of

:24:31.:24:34.

speech, the freedom of conscience, the freedom of expression, in

:24:34.:24:42.

Europe and in America, this is a culmination of the victory of the

:24:42.:24:47.

individual, as a human being. It has become one of the most basic

:24:48.:24:51.

human rights, this wasn't achieved overnight. Hundreds of years went

:24:51.:24:56.

before that. When all these freedoms were not available. Do we

:24:56.:25:02.

want to appease people in the -- Muslim and ar rash world who are

:25:02.:25:08.

not there, by indulging them and -- and Arab world who are not there

:25:08.:25:13.

yet, by indulging them, and then saying you guys should catch up

:25:13.:25:18.

with us, and our leaders explaining we won't go back. Do you accept

:25:18.:25:22.

that Muslims have the right to be offended, frirsly, by the film, and

:25:22.:25:26.

-- firstly, by the film, and now the cartoons and cartoon of the

:25:26.:25:29.

past, do you think they have the right to be offended by these

:25:29.:25:36.

things? The freedom of speech, freedom of expression that is

:25:36.:25:42.

constitutionally set in place, that protects the right to offend. It

:25:42.:25:46.

doesn't protect good manners. I do not want to insult anyone, and I

:25:46.:25:51.

hate people insulting one another, and insulting one another's

:25:51.:25:56.

religions, et cetera, but that is what it protected. So there is no

:25:56.:26:01.

point pretending otherwise. In the United States now, and I am

:26:01.:26:06.

following the elections, and what the Republicans say about the

:26:06.:26:14.

Democrats hurts Democratic people deeply, what Democrats say about

:26:14.:26:18.

Republicans hurt them deeply, that is protected. You do accept that

:26:18.:26:24.

the majority of Muslims who are offended by the film and the

:26:24.:26:29.

cartoon, are offended, they are not violent, they are simply offended,

:26:29.:26:32.

presumably they have the right to feel offended if they feel their

:26:32.:26:39.

religion or culture is under attack? Absolutely, the majority is

:26:39.:26:42.

offended, but in their offence, I think what they should do, the

:26:42.:26:49.

majority of Muslims, for them to be credible, is for them to object to

:26:49.:26:54.

real human suffering. Let me give you an example. You just reported

:26:54.:26:58.

on Pakistan. In mid-August, I believe it was the 14th of August,

:26:58.:27:06.

a 14-year-old girl was raped in Pakistan, by five men, that was

:27:06.:27:11.

national news, there was no demonstration of any kind, no

:27:11.:27:15.

outrage of any kind. This happens throughout the Muslim world, all

:27:15.:27:20.

the time. There is no outrage in the Muslim world when human life is

:27:20.:27:24.

taken, when churches are burned, when synagogues are burned, when

:27:24.:27:29.

Muslim, I know, a homicideal few, when they say and do bad things to

:27:29.:27:35.

others, including Muslims, that is Sufi, and Shias, but then there is

:27:35.:27:40.

some video somewhere in the south of California, and people in Egypt

:27:40.:27:44.

know about it, I'm sorry, it's not credible. Thank you very much for

:27:44.:27:48.

joining you, we have to stop you there.

:27:48.:27:52.

Much of the anger we have just been discussing has focused sharply on

:27:52.:27:55.

America and that of its foreign policy. What direction it takes in

:27:55.:27:59.

the years to come may well be something determined in the US

:27:59.:28:03.

presidential election, but both Barack Obama and Mitt Romney are

:28:03.:28:07.

acutely aware that promises of for more rays into foreign lands will

:28:07.:28:12.

not go down well with an already war-weary American electorate. It

:28:12.:28:16.

is not just the diplomatic and military might on the wane, it

:28:16.:28:21.

might be trade over superpowers in the future such as China. For his

:28:21.:28:26.

own assessment of whether America remains top dog and for how long,

:28:26.:28:30.

our own diplomatic editor jouornied there. On Baltimore's seafront,

:28:30.:28:34.

they have been honouring the past and contemplating the present. It

:28:34.:28:39.

is 200 years since the US and Britain began the war of 1812, a

:28:39.:28:44.

muddled and unnecessary little spat about trade rights. More recently,

:28:45.:28:50.

the US-UK relationship has been one of those comforting, unchanging

:28:50.:28:54.

poles, around this country has fixed its foreign policy. But as

:28:54.:28:59.

the country heads for elections, economic wos have made it more

:28:59.:29:06.

inward-look -- woes, have made it more inward-looking, less sure that

:29:06.:29:10.

American supremacy can be taken for granted. We have to be careful, we

:29:10.:29:13.

are close to losing it, in my opinion. I think China is very hot

:29:13.:29:18.

on our heels. What really ticked me off when Obama first became

:29:18.:29:22.

President was he went all around the world apologising for

:29:22.:29:26.

everything we did. If we didn't do what we did there would be

:29:26.:29:34.

countries in a lot worse shape. Foreign policy issues narrowly

:29:34.:29:37.

defined, relations with Russia, even whether America should attack

:29:37.:29:42.

Iran, have not played a big part in this campaign, not yet, any way,

:29:42.:29:46.

but, looming just beneath the surface, there is an obsession with

:29:46.:29:53.

America's status in the world, and whether it has declined under paib.

:29:53.:29:57.

His opponents -- President Obama. His opponents insist it has. Last

:29:57.:30:02.

week this country commemorated the victims of 9/11, President Obama

:30:02.:30:07.

laid a wreath at the Pentagon, and reminded people how he had dealt

:30:07.:30:11.

with Al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda's leadership has been devastated.

:30:11.:30:17.

Osama Bin Laden will never threaten us again. The US may still be the

:30:17.:30:21.

world's top military power, but, in the aftermath of that attack, it

:30:21.:30:26.

waged two hugely costly war. America is suffering from

:30:26.:30:32.

intervention fatigue. American concern about terrorism is

:30:32.:30:39.

way, way down, it figures in the low single digits among people

:30:39.:30:43.

polled as to what their principal concerns are in the world. In

:30:43.:30:53.
:30:53.:30:55.

addition to that, there is both a weariness and wariness about

:30:55.:30:59.

American intervention in the world, which is pegged to Iraq and

:30:59.:31:02.

Afghanistan, and the possibility of having to take action in Syria.

:31:02.:31:06.

Sensing this national mood, the President has, in his campaigning,

:31:06.:31:10.

explicitly turned his attention to the battle at home, for jobs.

:31:10.:31:13.

evening, over the last decade we have spent a trillion dollars on

:31:13.:31:20.

war, at a time of rising debt and hard economic times. Now we must

:31:20.:31:25.

invest in America's greatest resource, our people, America, it

:31:25.:31:31.

is time to focus on nation building here at home.

:31:31.:31:36.

The Romney campaign, and its more agrossive supporters, accuses

:31:36.:31:40.

President Obama of abandoning allies, shrinking from challenges,

:31:40.:31:47.

and leaving the world stage to others. As a Navy SEAL I fought, so

:31:47.:31:57.
:31:57.:31:59.

I would never have to see my President bow to anyone.

:31:59.:32:05.

Mitt Romney accuses President Obama of presiding over a avoidable

:32:05.:32:09.

decline. In American century we lead the free world, and the free

:32:09.:32:13.

world leads the entire world. If we don't have the strength or vision

:32:13.:32:19.

to lead, then other powers will take our place. Pulling history in

:32:19.:32:26.

a very different direction. The war of 1812 pitted Britain as the pre-

:32:26.:32:32.

eminent naval and trading power of its day against an upstart newcomer,

:32:32.:32:41.

America. So two centuries on, has the tide of history caught up with

:32:41.:32:47.

the US? Is this country now in terminal decline?

:32:47.:32:52.

This man insists it is not, and has been quoted by both presidential

:32:52.:32:57.

candidates for saying so. Americans are conflicted, they have

:32:57.:32:59.

contradictory impulses in their foreign policy, and always have.

:32:59.:33:03.

They have an impulse to try to shape the world in ways that they

:33:03.:33:06.

think are conducive to their interests, and their principles.

:33:06.:33:12.

They also have an impulse that sounds like too much of a burden,

:33:12.:33:16.

it's too expensive, we don't really want that much role in the world.

:33:16.:33:21.

Often these things coincide almost exactly at the same time. If it'ser

:33:21.:33:26.

in row sis you are looking for in a super-- neurosis you are looking

:33:26.:33:33.

for in a superpower, America is your country. The recession has

:33:33.:33:40.

dented the confidence of many Americans. It is Mansfield Ohio,

:33:40.:33:42.

unemployment is 11% and the community is struggling to cope

:33:42.:33:48.

with the closure of a local car plant. Until town like Mansfield,

:33:48.:33:52.

located in a key marginal state recover, the economy will dominate

:33:52.:33:59.

their concerns, and candidates for office will act accordingly.

:33:59.:34:02.

The Republican candidate, Mitt Romney, came here last week, his

:34:02.:34:07.

pitch is that, as a successful businessman, he knows how to turn

:34:07.:34:11.

things round. America does not have to have the long face we have right

:34:11.:34:15.

now under this President, we can get America going again, growing

:34:15.:34:19.

again, I know how to do it. There is an area where the core issues of

:34:19.:34:24.

this campaign, jobs and the economy, do touch on foreign policy. That's

:34:24.:34:27.

trade practices and relations between the great powers. In

:34:27.:34:33.

particular, China. PR Machine Works played host to Mr

:34:33.:34:37.

Romney, it has come through the recession without redundancies, but

:34:37.:34:41.

the boss here, a local Republican candidate, sees a direct connection

:34:41.:34:45.

between the local economy and wider world. I think we have to stand up

:34:45.:34:49.

to China, and tell them we want them to be part of the

:34:49.:34:51.

international community, and part of the international trade, but

:34:51.:34:56.

they have to play by the rules. That simple. You are very

:34:56.:35:00.

interdependant with the Chinese, they boy a lot of US Government

:35:00.:35:05.

debt, they have big investments here, can you afford a trade war,

:35:05.:35:08.

or some kind of political confrontation with China? No, I

:35:08.:35:13.

don't think we can afford a trade war, but we can sit down at the

:35:13.:35:17.

table and work towards getting that level playing field. It is in

:35:17.:35:23.

everybody's interest, including the Chinese, to get that done.

:35:23.:35:30.

Thank you Ohio, we will get it done. Tough talk on China and Russia may

:35:30.:35:35.

please some, but in the tough corridors of power Mr Romney has

:35:35.:35:39.

drawn fire. His convention speech didn't mention soldiers in

:35:39.:35:44.

Afghanistan, his one foreign trip drew flack, as did his recent

:35:44.:35:49.

interference on violence in Egypt. So foreign policy is an area where

:35:49.:35:53.

he has scored poorly against the President, and either man is

:35:53.:35:57.

conditioned by the realities of power. One thing that won't change

:35:57.:36:02.

with whoever is in the White House is the interests, we have to

:36:02.:36:07.

protect those interests, having a bad relationship right out of the

:36:07.:36:11.

gate with China, is not a hopeful way to protect our interests, we

:36:11.:36:15.

want a peaceful China on the world stage. It is good for all of us, it

:36:15.:36:20.

raises the level of all boats. I think that the first, and most

:36:20.:36:23.

important issue that any President will face after the redevelopment

:36:23.:36:28.

and the continued reconstitution of our own economy, will be China.

:36:28.:36:32.

Followed by the question of Iran and her nuclear capabilities, and

:36:32.:36:36.

then into probably the management of the called Arab Spring.

:36:36.:36:42.

And whoever wins, their latitude for manoeuvre in trying to restore

:36:42.:36:46.

the economy, and therefore, national self-confidence, may well

:36:46.:36:49.

be limited, by continuing partisan deadlock between the White House

:36:49.:36:54.

and Congress. Our system of governance still has lots of

:36:54.:37:04.
:37:04.:37:05.

virtues. It is not totally broken, but it is badly impaired by the

:37:05.:37:08.

extreme partisanship, and the crippling polarisation that'

:37:08.:37:13.

inflicts our politics right now. The essence of politics -- that

:37:13.:37:16.

inflicts our politics right now. It comes to two things, wisdom and

:37:16.:37:20.

foresight on the one hand, and the ability to compromise on the other.

:37:20.:37:25.

There is not a lot of either of those, and there is a dick dirth of

:37:25.:37:30.

compromise in this town. -- a particular dirth of compromise in

:37:30.:37:34.

this town. While the foreign experts in Washington might admit

:37:34.:37:39.

the world has become a more polar place to the average America, it is

:37:39.:37:44.

the economic crisis that has blunted their appetite for global

:37:44.:37:49.

activism, if the economy improves then things could simply be back to

:37:49.:37:52.

normal. If it stagnates and falls back further, this country's

:37:52.:37:57.

appetite for acting on the world stage, may be d diminished for many

:37:57.:38:02.

years to come. -- may be diminished for many years to come. As for the

:38:02.:38:06.

grander sweep of history, there are plenty who assume this country has

:38:06.:38:10.

passed the peak of its power. But pride in America remains so strong,

:38:10.:38:14.

that any candidate who told the public that, would soon come under

:38:14.:38:20.

a hail of political fire. Instead, America cleefs to the

:38:21.:38:25.

promise, that economic -- cleaves to the promise that an economic

:38:25.:38:31.

recovery can restore an order that Americans have known all their

:38:32.:38:35.

lives. Jeremy's duet with Vince Cable will be along in just a

:38:35.:38:40.

moment. First, the Oscar-winning French actress, Juliette Binoche,

:38:40.:38:44.

who starred in English Patient and Chocolat, returned to the London

:38:44.:38:50.

stage tonight after a 12-year absence, playing Miss Julie in the

:38:50.:38:54.

Barbican. Actress, dancer, singer and painter, who resisted the call

:38:54.:38:57.

of Hollywood and stays in her native country, values her privacy

:38:57.:39:01.

greatly. I spoke to her earlier at the Barbican, about the

:39:01.:39:07.

difficulties of playing an aristocratic young woman, who beds

:39:07.:39:13.

her father's valet on a mid- summer's night. This is a really

:39:13.:39:19.

tough role to play, she's not a likeable character, she's

:39:19.:39:24.

coquettish and needy? I'm not playing her like that. I don't

:39:24.:39:28.

think she's coquettish, it is an idea. She's so doomed, she's doomed

:39:28.:39:32.

from the start, you know she's going to be doomed? It depends how

:39:32.:39:37.

you want to look at Miss Julie, how you want to create her. Of course

:39:37.:39:42.

you can make her coquettish, but why do you need to make the

:39:42.:39:47.

character like. That it is an idea, but I think, deep down, she wants

:39:47.:39:51.

to be, she's lost in not knowing what is a woman, what is a man. She

:39:51.:39:58.

was brought up in both ways. So I think her need of being close is

:39:58.:40:08.
:40:08.:40:37.

As the two main characters they are going back and forth, fighting so

:40:37.:40:40.

hard, trying to understand who they are, and who the other is, and what

:40:40.:40:45.

is the other person's need and desire. That's why it is

:40:45.:40:51.

fascinating, and it is over age this idea of Jean and Miss Julie,

:40:51.:40:55.

you could play any age, it is about passion, love, searching who you

:40:55.:41:03.

are. She's Miss Julie, it is a kind of hamlet character, she has a

:41:03.:41:08.

layer -- Hamlet character, she has a layer of trying to discover who

:41:08.:41:15.

that is. You like stride stride? Because he's generous in his poetic,

:41:15.:41:21.

he's searching for love and the impossible idea of loving. When you

:41:21.:41:25.

expect so much, you are disappointed so much. When you look

:41:25.:41:35.
:41:35.:41:35.

at the parts that perhaps you haven't played, for example, in the

:41:35.:41:40.

Schiller, are there parts like that? Whether you play Miss Julie,

:41:40.:41:49.

and again, from my taste, I prefer Strindberg, he put his heart in

:41:49.:41:54.

operation, it is all the really opening up, and you really see

:41:54.:42:01.

what's in. You think Chekhov? more head-orientated, his gorgeous

:42:02.:42:06.

instruction, gorgeous at going into certain places, what is missing for

:42:07.:42:12.

me, comparing to Strindberg, he goes into it, and you doesn't know

:42:12.:42:18.

if he would survive it. He wrote the play in would weeks, only, in a

:42:18.:42:23.

big crisis. When you read about his relationship with his wife, he was

:42:23.:42:27.

divorcing as well. So they would kill each other during the day, and

:42:27.:42:31.

at the end of the day they would make love like crazy together on

:42:31.:42:38.

the floor, and making up, changing the whole deal. In the play it is

:42:38.:42:41.

what what happens, they are always going back and forth, it is never

:42:42.:42:46.

the end. Until there is a moment, she is totally alone. She's totally

:42:46.:42:56.
:42:56.:43:07.

I think in acting it is about forgetting yourself. And the

:43:07.:43:14.

betterment of, you let go because you want to go with the feeling,

:43:14.:43:18.

with the sensation, first of all, and the thoughts as well, but the

:43:18.:43:24.

head is not leading, it is the body is leading, and in the body you

:43:24.:43:30.

have every layer. You have the guts, you have the emotions, you have the

:43:30.:43:33.

words and the talking and the spirit. If you don't have

:43:33.:43:37.

everything in one body, the body is useless. The body contains

:43:37.:43:44.

everything. I wonder what you made of France's astonishment at these

:43:44.:43:49.

pictures of the future Queen of England topless in France being in

:43:49.:43:52.

French magazines? I wasn't aware of it, I never look at tabloids,

:43:52.:43:56.

somebody told me quickly, I'm not even aware of it. It is better not

:43:56.:44:02.

to be aware of it. Not knowing about it. Being ignorant about it,

:44:02.:44:07.

when there is this magazine, you turn your eyes away. Are you

:44:07.:44:10.

surprised, because France has privacy laws, don't you think that

:44:10.:44:16.

is an invasion of privacy? The law in France is very specific. Even in

:44:16.:44:21.

the street they cannot take pictures, you can really go after

:44:21.:44:25.

the photoers and the magazines that are publishing. You wonder why they

:44:25.:44:31.

took the risk? Because then you can talk about it. Otherwise they

:44:31.:44:36.

wouldn't care, if nobody was buying, if nobody was looking, they

:44:36.:44:41.

wouldn't take the pictures. I think you have said, if I'm right, if it

:44:41.:44:45.

is difficult to embrace success as a French woman, but is it actually

:44:45.:44:50.

that France finds it difficult to celebrate success? That is quite

:44:50.:44:57.

true. In a way, but at the same time, recent low I have observed

:44:57.:45:01.

that there were successful actors and directors and they have been

:45:01.:45:06.

quite embraced. Maybe when you have your success outside of France, and

:45:06.:45:11.

it might be a bit more difficult. Who knows? I don't know. Juliette

:45:11.:45:16.

Binoche thank you very much indeed. That's just about it from us for

:45:16.:45:20.

tonight. Before we go, political satirists must have thought all

:45:20.:45:25.

their Christmass had come at once, when Nick Clegg's student tuition

:45:25.:45:29.

fees a polling appeared on-line. # I'm sorry

:45:30.:45:35.

# I'm so sorry # There is no easy to way

:45:35.:45:41.

# I'm sorry Mr Clegg has expressed his delight

:45:41.:45:47.

at the spoof and encouraged producers from the political

:45:47.:45:51.

website The Spoke, to release it as a charity single.

:45:51.:45:58.

We didn't want others to feel left out, we asked the artist to do the

:45:58.:46:03.

same for Jeremy's interview from last night.

:46:03.:46:07.

# I was sceptical about the pledge, we agreed collectively to do it, I

:46:08.:46:14.

take my share of responsibility. # Do you personally believe it was

:46:14.:46:17.

true? # It was atypical

:46:17.:46:22.

# I signed the pledge on the basis # That had we been in Government on

:46:22.:46:25.

our own # On our own

:46:25.:46:27.

# We would have put through that policy

:46:27.:46:32.

# Put through that policy # You knew perfectly it was

:46:32.:46:34.

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