25/09/2012 Newsnight


25/09/2012

With the cull of badgers about to begin, Newsnight speaks to protesters about their tactics to stop the killing. Farmers and wildlife experts join Emily Maitlis.


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Transcript


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The battle of the badger cull turns nasty. Newsnight goes undercover in

:00:12.:00:16.

the undergrowth. And learns how threats and intimidation towards

:00:16.:00:20.

farmers could jeopardise the Government's plans. It was

:00:20.:00:23.

harassment, they said you have fantastic garden, a fantastic-

:00:23.:00:27.

looking farm, you must have a lovely lifestyle there. You enter

:00:27.:00:32.

into the badger scheme, you will come up with some consequences.

:00:32.:00:36.

Bill Oddie is against the cull, he is with us. We will ask if the

:00:36.:00:39.

killing of these animals make scientific sense.

:00:39.:00:45.

The budget for overseas aid will sore next year, the PM confirms his

:00:45.:00:49.

commitment, but is he right. There are concerns that the aid budget is

:00:49.:00:54.

growing so fast that the civil servants in here are having to do

:00:54.:00:58.

the equivalent of shovelling money out the door to get it out fast

:00:58.:01:01.

enough. The Liberal Democrats are telling us why we should vote for

:01:01.:01:07.

them in the next election. Tomorrow Nick Clegg will try to rival the

:01:07.:01:11.

speech made by Vince Cable, he will say there is no turning back on

:01:11.:01:13.

deficit reduction, and tell the country he's still strong enough to

:01:13.:01:17.

make the tough choices. How does your brain respond to information,

:01:18.:01:27.
:01:28.:01:28.

pictures, number, words? Welcome to the art of data visualisation.

:01:28.:01:32.

Good evening. Will badgers be to David Cameron what hunted foxes

:01:32.:01:39.

became to Tony Blair? A totemic, or toxic symbol of the curious

:01:39.:01:44.

relationship the English have with their animals, and something that

:01:44.:01:47.

does not welcome political interference. Since the badger cull

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received its license, 100,000 people petitioned to stop it.

:01:56.:02:01.

We look at the intimidation for farmers by protesters. Some say the

:02:01.:02:06.

cull will have no significant effect against TB, but the

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Government says it has to be tried. In the dead of night, disputed

:02:09.:02:12.

territory in the latest clash between farmers and wildlife

:02:12.:02:17.

campaigners. Using a night vision camera, we

:02:17.:02:21.

were secretly shown one of the largest sets in Gloucestershire, a

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pilot zone for the mass slaughter of badgers. This is one of the

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first areas where the cull will begin, in the Seth behind me, bait

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will be -- set behind me, bait will be laid to encourage badgers to

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come out to eat, when they are in the habit of doing, that they will

:02:39.:02:43.

be shot. Cattle farmers say the move will

:02:43.:02:47.

limited endless spread of TB through their herds. But the plans

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are provoking fury. Any day now, the silence of the Gloucestershire

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night will be broken, as campaigners rampage around the area,

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making as much noise as possible to scare the badgers away. They say

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that if they see anyone with a shotgun, they will stand in the way

:03:02.:03:09.

to stop the badgers getting hurt. Protestor and farmer, there is a

:03:09.:03:13.

gulf in mutual understanding and sympathy. Both are certain they are

:03:13.:03:23.

right. January has helped organised the Gloucestershire -- Jan has

:03:23.:03:27.

helped organised the Gloucestershire cull, his own farm

:03:27.:03:32.

lies out of the boundary. TB has laid siege to his dairy herd,

:03:32.:03:36.

costing him, he estimates, half a million pounds. We have to do

:03:36.:03:40.

something different now, to sit back and let farmers take the

:03:40.:03:44.

strain. We know DEFRA's budget is coming under pressure, cutbacks are

:03:44.:03:48.

likely, pressure will be ramped up again. There is a huge threat to

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the cattle industry this the west of the country, if we doesn't do

:03:51.:03:54.

something effective against the disease. This protestor co-

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ordinates the group Stop The Cull. He's promising direct action, and

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wants to remain anonymous, in case he's targeted. We will be using

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megaphones to disrupt the cull directly, so if we see maxmen and

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see badgers we will make -- marksmen we will make noise to

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scare them off. He is one of three groups opposed to the cull?

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largest group RSPCA, with Brian May, they are broadly politically

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lobbying. We are a direct action group going in, and stop the cull

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taking place. There is a much more extreme group, which I would guess

:04:39.:04:44.

would be the Animal Liberation Front. What sort of tactics are

:04:44.:04:47.

they threatening? The Animal Liberation Front have put out

:04:47.:04:52.

communiques saying they will superglue the cashpoints of

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Sainsbury's. If it stocks milk from cull areas? Yes. It isn't just

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protests, but locals are facing economic consequences too, with a

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possible consumer boycott. Areas like Tewkesbury rely on the tourist

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trade, while some supermarkets are reassuring their customers they

:05:14.:05:18.

went stock milk that comes from the cull areas. The protesters claim

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that farmers in Gloucestershire are losing heart, and support for the

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cull. With some even pulling out because of the pressure. That's why

:05:26.:05:30.

they are not taking part in the cull? Yes, they initial low said

:05:30.:05:33.

they would, now they are saying they won't. -- initially said they

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would, now they are saying they won't. What has changed their mind?

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It is the amount of publicity it is getting and the amount of public

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outcry. We talk today one of those farm,

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she told us there was another reason for they are change of heart,

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a threatening phone call. It was harassment, they said you have a

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fantastic garden and farm, you must have a lovely lifestyle there,

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enter in the badger scheme you will come up with some consequences. I'm

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subsequently thinking about it all whether or not to go ahead, because

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this is rather frightening. Stop The Cull says it doesn't support

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such tactics? We condemn the harassment and damage to property.

:06:18.:06:21.

Scientists agree killing most of the badgers in the pilot areas will

:06:22.:06:30.

have an impact on cattle TB. If the full programme goes ahead, as many

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as 100,000 badgers will be culled. Reducing cattle TB by 16%. The

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argument between farmers and campaigners is whether that

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reduction justifies the slaughter. I think the emotion and sentiment

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about the badger is probably most of the problem. I think when, it is

:06:53.:06:56.

very difficult, as a disease, to tell people all of the problems

:06:57.:07:01.

with it, and how the badger is central in maintaining the

:07:01.:07:05.

reservoir in it. Until we deal with it in a significant way, as yet

:07:05.:07:09.

that may be vaccines and that is not ready for use, we have to look

:07:09.:07:14.

at other ways of getting on top of the disease.

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Vaccination, promoted as cure, not kill, is being tried over the

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boarder in Wales. It's labour- intensive, with each badger being

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trapped and injected. An oral vaccine will be more cost effective,

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but is still in development. Another approach, the vaccination

:07:32.:07:38.

of cattle, is banned by the EU. With no technical fix, the conflict

:07:38.:07:43.

is moving towards difficult terrain, to be played out in darkness and in

:07:43.:07:46.

anger. The badger minister, David Heath,

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has gone underground, we are now joined from Leicester by the bird

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watcher and broadcaster, Bill Oddie, who has campaigned against the cull,

:07:56.:07:59.

and by Peter Kendall, President of the National Farmers' Union, David

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Bowles from the RSPCA, and the Government aide Daniel Kawczynski.

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Thank you for joining us. If I start with you, Bill Oddie, if

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people are pulling out of these pilots, through intimidation, as

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you heard in the piece, is that a good thing? I think I would

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probably say it's the right result for the wrong reason. Because the

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thing that bothers me most, I think, it never seems to get a mention, is

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that we have, as conservationists, had an ever-improving relationship

:08:32.:08:35.

with farmers for a considerable time now. That was very important,

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because the British countryside and farmland in particular was losing

:08:39.:08:43.

its wildlife. Not just badgers, losing wildlife all down the way.

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And it's going to be very sad if we're now being set up against one

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another. Because believe me, there are plenty of farmers, not just in

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the cull areas, who have chosen not to go in with the cull. And it

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would be very detrimental to British countryside and wildlife in

:09:03.:09:08.

general. I certainly don't condone any kind of guerrilla violent

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tactics. Although, I have to say, the practicality of carrying out

:09:11.:09:16.

this cull is another big problem. I have watched enough badgers and

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filmed enough badgers to know you only have to crack a twig and Mr

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Badger is down in his set and he ain't coming out for several hours.

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How on earth marksmen are going to wander round in pitch darkness and

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shoot badgers, I simply don't know. There is bound to be confrontation.

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Let me pick up, first of all with you David Bowles, the RSPCA, you

:09:40.:09:46.

have heard Bill Oddie saying he condemns guerrilla violence tactics,

:09:46.:09:51.

this is the way it is going to happen, people will be intimidated

:09:51.:09:55.

out of participateing? We agree with Bill, we condemn violence on

:09:55.:09:59.

all sides. There has been, what we are trying to do is to highlight

:09:59.:10:02.

the fact that actually badger culling is not going to achieve

:10:02.:10:07.

what we all want to achieve, which is a reduction in bovine TB in the

:10:07.:10:10.

cattle herd. What we have seen is the Government saying to farmers,

:10:10.:10:15.

if you go down this route your problems will be solved. They are

:10:15.:10:19.

not, as you said in the piece, we could see reductions as little as

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3% in the cull areas, and around about 16% as an average. That is

:10:24.:10:28.

diney in terms of the fact you are wiping out 7 -- tiny in terms it of

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the fact you are wiping out 70% of an animal. The reason for the

:10:34.:10:37.

judicial review and the way the Government presented its figures,

:10:37.:10:47.

it shows over the average nine years of the I -- scientific

:10:47.:10:50.

reduction unit, if you go to those areas there is a 30% reduction, if

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you go to Ireland, where they are doing a cull of badgers, there is

:10:54.:10:59.

already over a 30% reduction. This isn't just one solution, we know we

:10:59.:11:02.

have to work on cattle movements and vaccination as well. But,

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reluctantly, and this is a big reluctant, because of exactly what

:11:07.:11:09.

Bill said about the relationship with the countryside and everybody

:11:09.:11:12.

who loves the countryside. Reluctantly we have to start and

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wind back the reservoir of disease in badgers. Bill Oddie, I'm going

:11:16.:11:21.

to let you come back. You said this was a friction between the farmers

:11:21.:11:24.

and the conservationists, surely you want to wipe out that disease?

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Of course, and conhave vaigsists have for years and years and years

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-- conservationists have for years and years and years T has been

:11:32.:11:38.

going on for many years. Proof in my hand of a publication from many

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years ago from the Wildlife Trust, it is telling the members what the

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problem is, and sympathiseing entirely with farmers and saying,

:11:46.:11:49.

basically, we are trying to achieve the same thing. My argument,

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frankly, if you want to put one set of people up against another set of

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people, let's put the farmers aside, it is the conservationists against

:11:58.:12:02.

this, flipping Government, who are showing a considerable ignorance

:12:02.:12:07.

and arrogance in everything to do with the countryside and

:12:07.:12:12.

agriculture. For the purposes of this debate you are the "flipping"

:12:12.:12:18.

Government, you can respond? What Bill Oddie hasn't talked about is

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the suffering of the badgers themselves, they suffer an

:12:22.:12:26.

appalling death because of bovine tuberculosis. You are culling the

:12:26.:12:32.

badgers so they feel better? limited cull of badgers, in hot

:12:32.:12:37.

spot areas, in order to try to tackle this rampent disease, which

:12:37.:12:41.

is blown out of all proportion against England. It is a bit

:12:41.:12:44.

cynical to say the badge letters be feeling better, why not stand up

:12:45.:12:48.

and say it is about industry and protecting those people who need

:12:48.:12:52.

your support? Representing a rural constituency like slowsbury, I have

:12:52.:12:56.

sat on many occasion -- Shrewsbury, I have sat on many occasions with

:12:57.:13:01.

farmers in their kitchens and seen grown men cry when all of their

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herds have been slaughtered. The devastation it causes to families,

:13:09.:13:17.

to smie Shropshire farm -- my Shropshire farmers and my dairy

:13:17.:13:21.

farmers, I would suggest it that Bill Oddie spend time with my

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constituents and farmers, and see the devastation they are going

:13:24.:13:28.

through because of the lack of action from the Labour

:13:28.:13:33.

administration for many years? Is it not a political thing that you

:13:33.:13:36.

want to be seen to be doing something, and that is what your

:13:36.:13:39.

Government is about, we have done something. We have a duty and

:13:39.:13:43.

responsibility, Sir, to ensure that there is, that England does

:13:43.:13:47.

continue to have a dairy industry. And unless we take these steps,

:13:47.:13:51.

thousands of dairy farmers will go out of business. That is not true.

:13:51.:13:54.

Let's talk about the dairy question for a second, there is now a

:13:54.:13:58.

campaign that others have signed to try to get supermarkets to register

:13:58.:14:02.

the equivalent of dolphin-friendly tuna, for example, millk from

:14:02.:14:06.

places badgers have not been culled. Is that workable and would you

:14:06.:14:10.

support it, should people be buying milk that hasn't come from those

:14:11.:14:16.

farms? To start off with you said the Number Ten petition had 100,000

:14:16.:14:19.

signatures, one of the fastest- growing petitions in over two weeks,

:14:19.:14:23.

it is still going up. It shows the depth of frustration and anger from

:14:23.:14:26.

the public. We have known from the two Government consultations that

:14:26.:14:30.

the majority of the public do not want to see culling. That is

:14:30.:14:34.

specifically about the culling, would you like people to boycott

:14:34.:14:37.

milk that didn't come from badger- friendly farms? We want people to

:14:37.:14:42.

be given the choice, whether to buy milk from a badger cull area or not.

:14:42.:14:46.

It is a simple consumer choice issue, it is not a boycott. At the

:14:46.:14:51.

moment they don't have that choice. Modern dairy issues are incredibly

:14:52.:14:54.

complicated, sometimes supermarkets buy an aggregated supply, and

:14:55.:14:58.

sometimes from a few producers. You know the problems the dairy

:14:58.:15:02.

industry is having in the UK at the moment, to try to bankrupt and put

:15:02.:15:05.

people out of business and stop people being involved and trying to

:15:05.:15:11.

save an industry. That is what I worry about this debate. In 1998

:15:11.:15:17.

there were 9,000 cattle slaughtered, last year there were 32,000 cattle

:15:17.:15:20.

slaughtered because of TB, this is an explosion of disease, we must do

:15:20.:15:24.

something about it. To try to drive people out of business to stop them

:15:24.:15:27.

tackling the reservoir of disease I think is an incredibly

:15:27.:15:32.

irresponsible line to take. What we don't know, if we get the licenses

:15:32.:15:36.

in both these areas happening, the Government has then said they will

:15:36.:15:41.

go to ten additional culls each year, where do we stop, do we wipe

:15:41.:15:45.

out 70% of the badgers in the south west of England, all over England.

:15:45.:15:49.

This is a protected species. The ironic thing is, just across the

:15:49.:15:53.

border from Daniel's constituency s the Welsh Government, looking at

:15:53.:15:57.

the same science and statistics have decided to go down a humane

:15:57.:16:00.

vaccination route, rather than a cull route. The most important

:16:00.:16:03.

thing to remember here is the Government has had a consultation

:16:03.:16:08.

on this. The scientists. The Government got rid of all its

:16:08.:16:10.

vaccination trials when it came into power, it didn't want to spend

:16:10.:16:14.

the money on it? Over 50% of the Government said they -- public said

:16:14.:16:16.

they didn't want the cull, the Government ignored them.

:16:17.:16:22.

Government line on this, to have a limited cull of badgers has the

:16:22.:16:27.

backing of the High Court. The scam badgers' Trust took us to court and

:16:27.:16:31.

the court ruled in our favour. What all of us have to remember is the

:16:31.:16:35.

High Court has assessed, and taken a huge amount of time to look

:16:35.:16:39.

through all the evidence and they backed us.

:16:39.:16:42.

If this turns into the equivalent of the fox-hunting ban for Tony

:16:43.:16:47.

Blair, which he then said he regreted, would it be worth it?

:16:47.:16:52.

very pleased that my neighbour, Owen Patterson, the new DEFRA

:16:52.:16:57.

secretary, he is committed to this, I, and other rural MPs, who have a

:16:57.:17:02.

duty and responsibility to our dairy farmer, will insist the

:17:02.:17:06.

Government fulfils this obligation in this matter. Let me ask you

:17:06.:17:09.

about the practicalities of this now, do you think they will be able

:17:09.:17:19.
:17:19.:17:22.

to stop this going ahead? Who was that question to you -- Who was

:17:22.:17:32.
:17:32.:17:34.

that question to? To you, Bill weeks ago and said I'm afraid this

:17:34.:17:41.

was going to turn nasty. It didn't powers to say that. It is perfectly

:17:41.:17:47.

obvious that it was. It will. It is police will be the next people who

:17:47.:17:51.

guarantee the safety of people in an area where there are people with

:17:51.:17:56.

guns, at night, in the dark, and other people wandering around

:17:56.:18:03.

trying to interrupt them. on this, is more than the amount

:18:03.:18:13.
:18:13.:18:14.

It is not, the message Bill should be tweeting and the RSPB, is this

:18:14.:18:16.

should not turn nasty, all of the organisations campaigning against

:18:16.:18:23.

the cull should put out a really big signal that lady shouldn't meal

:18:23.:18:28.

will turn nasty, I would like to see all the campaigners for

:18:28.:18:34.

wildlife to say it shouldn't turn nasty, we should put a message out

:18:34.:18:39.

saying this sort of behaviour is beyond the pale. We don't want to

:18:39.:18:46.

there are people who also feel intimidated and scared to speak out,

:18:46.:18:50.

actually against the cull, because they feel that they are intimidated.

:18:50.:18:57.

Thank you very much all of you. It may have been clever once, but

:18:57.:19:02.

does it still make political sense be going up by a third next year,

:19:02.:19:09.

when every other budget is going the Conservative decontamination

:19:09.:19:11.

project, might now look too much like a political gamble, when, say

:19:11.:19:13.

many in the party, there is plenty of suffering close to home. Tonight

:19:13.:19:20.

at the UN, David Cameron will restate his commitment to overseas

:19:20.:19:22.

aid, despite hints that his development secretary has questions

:19:22.:19:27.

of her own, she will be by his side. For all the high-volume campaigning

:19:27.:19:32.

of Live Aid, the commitment to spend 0.7% of GDP is actually far

:19:32.:19:42.
:19:42.:19:42.

older, it goes way back to the UN in 1970. The United Nations

:19:42.:19:46.

sponsored arrangement in 1970, it had no rhyme or reason, most

:19:46.:19:50.

countries now don't bother about it at all. We are giving now, in this

:19:50.:19:53.

country, more aid than any other country in the world with the

:19:53.:19:56.

exception of the United States, which, of course, is immensely

:19:56.:20:00.

richer than we are. Progress towards this goal has not

:20:00.:20:04.

been very impressive. Only Norway, Luxembourg, Sweden and the

:20:04.:20:10.

Netherlands manage it, according to the OECD, with Belgium not far

:20:10.:20:14.

behind, and then comes Britain on 0.6%. We are committed to hitting

:20:14.:20:18.

the target by 2013. The Prime Minister arrived in New York today,

:20:18.:20:24.

his first stop was to meet a group of young entrepeneurs, but tomorrow

:20:24.:20:28.

he will address the General Assembly of the UN, and tell them

:20:28.:20:32.

that the 0.7% commitment is more important than ever, and he will

:20:32.:20:38.

reaffirm Britain's commitment to it. This is where David Cameron's

:20:38.:20:42.

pledge gets made into reality, the Department for International

:20:42.:20:48.

Development in London. But there is, though, scepticism within Mr

:20:48.:20:53.

Cameron's own party, that this huge increase in Britain's aid budget

:20:53.:20:58.

will be well spent. Peter Bone is a Conservative MP, who almost

:20:58.:21:04.

singlehandedly attempts to get the 0.7% enshrined in British law.

:21:04.:21:09.

are talking from going from �7 billion a year to �12 billion in

:21:09.:21:13.

aid. In other words you could have �5 billion of tax cuts to get the

:21:13.:21:17.

economy going, without affecting any level of overseas aid, just

:21:17.:21:21.

keep it at the same level we have inherited. When we came to power we

:21:21.:21:26.

said overseas aid was poorly spent f we spent it better rather than

:21:26.:21:33.

increasing it, we are hooked on the 0.7%. The rise in the international

:21:34.:21:36.

development budget is spectacular, when set alongside other

:21:36.:21:40.

unfortunate Government departments. It has a rise of 34% over the next

:21:40.:21:44.

few years, the NHS is just about keeping pace with inflation. Wheen

:21:44.:21:50.

mile defence, education, the Home Office, communities and local

:21:50.:21:53.

Government, almost every other Government department is taking a

:21:53.:21:56.

big hit. Some influential Conservatives think this sends an

:21:56.:21:59.

important message about the Government's priorities. There are

:21:59.:22:03.

a number of things that David Cameron did to try to show that the

:22:03.:22:07.

Conservative Party was different from the Conservative Party of old.

:22:07.:22:11.

And things like committing to the poorest people of the world, things

:22:11.:22:15.

like maintaining the NHS budget. Things like gay marriage, are

:22:15.:22:20.

absolute signs that he is still the modernising Tory that he presented

:22:20.:22:24.

himself to the electorate before the election. As Britain's aid

:22:24.:22:28.

budget has increased, critics say all we are doing is spending more

:22:28.:22:32.

money on more marginal and questionable project. Indeed the

:22:32.:22:37.

Public Accounts Committee of the House of Commons has concluded that

:22:37.:22:40.

the Department of Development doesn't have the capacity to spend

:22:40.:22:45.

all this extra money on its own projects, instead it is having to

:22:45.:22:50.

funnel it through outside organisations with lower levels of

:22:50.:22:53.

accountability, it is doing this, say MPs, not because this is a

:22:53.:22:56.

smarter way of spending public money, no, they are doing it, they

:22:56.:23:00.

say, because it is easier. The way the projects are described is

:23:00.:23:04.

extremely vague, for example, �3020 million has gone to improve the

:23:05.:23:08.

Kenyan Government's accountability to its citizens. �94 million is

:23:08.:23:13.

going to improve the quality of life and opportunity for 2.4

:23:13.:23:19.

million in the Kolkata Metropolitan area. If you are worrying that all

:23:19.:23:28.

this is adding to our national debt, you might not like to know that

:23:28.:23:33.

�1,-- �1.4 million is to improve the economic debt of the Government

:23:33.:23:36.

of Jamaica. The House of Lords has admitted that British aid is often

:23:36.:23:41.

counter-productive, with much of it lost to corruption and middle men.

:23:41.:23:47.

It is a bonanza of consultants, it is these who are employed at large

:23:47.:23:51.

costs by the department to help them do their job. It is the

:23:51.:23:54.

consultants who are the main beneficiaries of the aid programme,

:23:54.:23:57.

rather than the poor people in the poor countries one would like to

:23:57.:24:01.

see benefiting from economic growth and economic development.

:24:01.:24:04.

Some Conservatives had hoped that the appointment of Jeremy

:24:04.:24:09.

Greenstock as the new development secretary, and -- Justine Greening,

:24:09.:24:15.

in the reshuffle as new Development Secretary, would help with the

:24:15.:24:18.

downgrading of aid, she is with the Prime Minister in New York, and we

:24:18.:24:23.

are told, fully signed up to the target.

:24:23.:24:27.

Our guests are with us. Ian Birrell, former adviser to David Cameron,

:24:28.:24:31.

now contributing editor of the Daily Mail is with me too. Adrian,

:24:31.:24:35.

when you look at the figures and see the jump in real terms, when

:24:35.:24:38.

every other department is getting cut, it is unjustifiable, isn't it?

:24:38.:24:42.

I don't think it is, firstly because it is affordable, the

:24:42.:24:45.

figure you didn't hear there, and which the British public rarely

:24:45.:24:50.

hears, that actually this costs just over a penny on each pound of

:24:50.:24:57.

Government revenue, Government spending. A penny on the pound, 99p

:24:57.:25:01.

goes elsewhere. Just a penny going towards the outcomes we are seeing

:25:01.:25:04.

from British aid. You are still talking about a jump from �7

:25:05.:25:10.

billion to �12 billion. These are substantialal sums of money at a

:25:10.:25:14.

time when things are not affordable? Taking away that aid

:25:14.:25:19.

budget, if you took it all away, you would barely make a dent in the

:25:19.:25:22.

trillion-pound debt that we have in the UK today. But the difference

:25:22.:25:26.

that aid is making is much more specific, actually, than your

:25:26.:25:29.

report showed there. For the investment that Britain will make

:25:29.:25:34.

in the next few years, the increase you just talked about, 16 million

:25:34.:25:40.

children will go to school, who don't currently go to cool. 80 mill

:25:40.:25:45.

-- school. 80 million will be vaccinated against life-threatening

:25:45.:25:48.

diseases, 77 million will get access to things like bank accounts,

:25:49.:25:53.

and things that help them work their way out of poverty. What kind

:25:53.:25:58.

of place would we be if we said no to that? The other way of putting

:25:58.:26:03.

the figure is it is �300 a household spent on aid. It is very

:26:03.:26:10.

outdated policy, nothing to do with modernisation, it is anachronism

:26:10.:26:17.

based on ideas around years ago. Educating children? The watchdog

:26:17.:26:22.

said �1 billion was spent theoretically on educating children

:26:22.:26:26.

in three African countries, and there was no improvement in

:26:26.:26:30.

literacy or numeracy, it is about achieving targets and not about on

:26:30.:26:33.

the ground. That is the biggest problem, I wouldn't object if the

:26:33.:26:37.

aid was doing something to help. But it is not. I would have no

:26:37.:26:41.

problem if it was going to help, it is corrosive, it is corroding the

:26:41.:26:45.

connection between Governments and people. It is fuelling conflict. A

:26:45.:26:49.

lot of the aid money, two-thirds of aid workers say the projects don't

:26:49.:26:52.

work. This is in this huge great booming industry, where consultants

:26:52.:26:56.

are getting rich. Let's not forget, for all the talk we hear about

:26:56.:27:04.

education and health, actually �1.3 billion goes to the EU and improves

:27:04.:27:08.

food labelling in Iceland and cleans up the EU. The whole thing

:27:08.:27:13.

ising a fast thing, D of IFD don't know what to do with the money and

:27:13.:27:17.

are shovelling out of it and lots of people get rich on the back of

:27:17.:27:21.

it. No money that goes to Iceland does that, it does to accession

:27:21.:27:26.

into the EU. That is the misunderstanding. It comes out of

:27:26.:27:30.

the aid budget. It doesn't. It goes on food labelling. Address the

:27:30.:27:35.

question of consultants which is a major one, �500 million last year,

:27:35.:27:39.

paid to consultants, many of those sums of money go straight into the

:27:40.:27:45.

pockets of the bosses who run them? I think it is absolutely right that

:27:45.:27:49.

Justine Greening take as close look at it and goes through it line by

:27:49.:27:53.

line and see where the money goes. It worries you? Absolutely. These

:27:53.:27:58.

are big challenges, we need experts wrecks need people who have dealt

:27:58.:28:02.

with these problems before to bring it to bear. Some of those will be

:28:03.:28:06.

consultants. Of course she should go through and see is there money

:28:06.:28:09.

to be spent here better spent in other ways. It is very convenient

:28:09.:28:13.

just to say it will do more harm than good. It is very nice if it we

:28:13.:28:17.

can turn around and say, let's keep all the money, there must be better

:28:17.:28:23.

solutions than that? Take the former head. DIFD in Rwanda saying

:28:23.:28:26.

it is the least effective public service there. You would like the

:28:27.:28:31.

pledge to be dropped? It is meaningless and the target

:28:31.:28:35.

ridiculous. It attacks welfare dependency at home and encourages

:28:35.:28:40.

it at home, it says that it distorts targets, and it is based

:28:40.:28:44.

on figures from the 1940s, when the UN looked at the figures six years

:28:44.:28:49.

ago and said the target should be 0.44%. Does it matter to you if it

:28:49.:28:52.

is just about a political strategy of decontamination, does it make

:28:52.:28:57.

any difference to how you see this? In a sense it doesn't matter. It is

:28:57.:29:00.

the policy. I don't believe it is just about that. I understand the

:29:00.:29:03.

argument that is being put across there. It is the policy, it was the

:29:03.:29:05.

policy of all three major parties at the last election, and so,

:29:05.:29:10.

what's happening now is simply the enactment of democracy, in fact,

:29:10.:29:16.

actually when you go out and talk to people. 77% of people oppose it.

:29:16.:29:20.

Not really. A year ago when people were asked in a fair way, not given

:29:20.:29:27.

the recession do you think we can afford the aid budget. Lots of

:29:27.:29:32.

people supported Live Aid? Most recent surveys show support is

:29:32.:29:37.

falling. It is veryiesy for an organisation founded like One, who

:29:37.:29:41.

is founded by rock stars not paying their full whack in tax, shown up

:29:41.:29:44.

for that. To advocate that people struggling in this country should

:29:44.:29:48.

pay out a lot of money on projected that don't work, and shown time and

:29:48.:29:51.

time again that they don't work, and not wanted by ordinary people.

:29:51.:29:55.

If the same amount of money was paid, not in the way it is now, but

:29:55.:29:59.

to disasters and emergencies, you wouldn't have a problem? There are

:29:59.:30:03.

issues, there is so much money, when you have a disaster you have

:30:03.:30:07.

1,000 aid groups turning up and chaos on the ground, and the cost

:30:07.:30:13.

of housing and food soaring. And many of those saying there is a

:30:13.:30:20.

huge problem with aid groups because there is so much aid money

:30:20.:30:23.

sloshing around. Those campaigning every day on the issues snow it is

:30:24.:30:28.

an investment we can afford, it is cheaper than people believe, and it

:30:28.:30:31.

is making a bigger difference than people believe and we should

:30:31.:30:37.

continue with it. Are current Lib Dem tactics working, Nick Clegg

:30:37.:30:42.

will set out how he intends to attract voters in his loader's

:30:42.:30:46.

speech tomorrow. Documents leaked today claim there is no real

:30:46.:30:51.

evidence their current strategy is working. Our political editor is in

:30:51.:30:55.

Brighton now. Take us through the documents, what happened? While we

:30:55.:31:00.

have been on air the Lib Dem leader and his wife walked past us, he has

:31:00.:31:04.

been practising his speech all night. He takes the speech

:31:04.:31:06.

incredibly seriously. Some documents came out today, they told

:31:07.:31:10.

people what they knew here already, that it is very difficult to see

:31:10.:31:13.

what message is working, particularly well for the Lib Dems,

:31:13.:31:17.

in either the south or the north of England. But back to that speech.

:31:17.:31:23.

That speech is why he made that apology last week, to much mirth

:31:23.:31:27.

and muttering from people. He wanted to clear the decks, so

:31:27.:31:31.

tomorrow he would be listened to with a message that they think can

:31:31.:31:34.

last the next two weeks and put them in a better place than the

:31:35.:31:39.

documents do suggest. The trouble is, lots of people here, activists

:31:39.:31:42.

and MPs, wonder about the strategy. The strategy is to carve out a new

:31:42.:31:46.

role for them in the centre of British politics. In the speech

:31:46.:31:49.

tomorrow he will talk about British politics being about three parties,

:31:49.:31:53.

not two, and they will being a small third party. With that he has

:31:53.:31:56.

messages on the deficit. At the start of the week we had soft

:31:56.:31:59.

language for his party, who were worried about the economy and

:31:59.:32:02.

deficit reduction. Today and tomorrow we will start to see them

:32:02.:32:05.

hardening up again as they send their delegates on their way.

:32:05.:32:08.

Saying we will have to find lots of cuts, just like the Conservatives

:32:08.:32:12.

will. So there is that message, there is also something to make

:32:12.:32:14.

them happier. There will be a policy on education and language

:32:14.:32:18.

around the environment. What he's trying to do is position them on

:32:18.:32:22.

the centre. Many MPs and activists are not sure that necessarily works.

:32:22.:32:26.

It may work in 15-20 years time, that is a generational struggle,

:32:26.:32:29.

that doesn't necessarily get them through the next general election.

:32:29.:32:33.

One more thing, people are quoting David Lloyd George, he said if

:32:33.:32:36.

you're going to jump across a chasam, it is best to do it in one

:32:37.:32:40.

step. Thank you very much. The magic of television being what

:32:41.:32:45.

it is, you might, indeed, recognise the next backdrop, the one you have

:32:45.:32:49.

just seen for our guest, the Lib Dem Home Office Minister, Jeremy

:32:49.:32:53.

Browne, who is, as we speak, swapping a quickstep with Allegra

:32:53.:32:58.

to speak with us now, about those issues she has been raising. We

:32:58.:33:02.

will go to him now. Let's start, first of all, Jeremy Browne, with

:33:02.:33:11.

this issue of the leaked document, showing "very little valid evidence

:33:11.:33:15.

that tactics work". I don't know about the leaked development, I

:33:15.:33:18.

don't think that is central to the big choices the party is facing.

:33:18.:33:21.

Nick Clegg will lay out the big choices tomorrow in his speech. As

:33:21.:33:25.

Allegra just said, there are two essential messages that hang

:33:25.:33:29.

together, one is a Deputy Prime Minister message, and the other is

:33:29.:33:32.

a Liberal Democrat party leader message. The Deputy Prime Minister

:33:32.:33:35.

message is the country needs to make the transition from austerity

:33:35.:33:40.

to prosperity. That will require some difficult decisions of us all.

:33:40.:33:43.

The Liberal Democrat leader message is the party needs to make the

:33:43.:33:46.

journey from opposition to Government, protest to power. That

:33:46.:33:50.

will require some tough decisions as well. Those two journeys are

:33:50.:33:53.

interlinked and the suck he is of the Liberal Democrats and the

:33:53.:33:56.

success of the country depends on them both working out what. I want

:33:56.:34:01.

to go back to these reports, that came from. Don't worry about the

:34:01.:34:05.

trivia, worry about the big central message. That's the big central

:34:05.:34:10.

message. Is it trivial. I have just told you what the big...I Have just

:34:10.:34:13.

told you what the strategy is, I have just told you what the

:34:13.:34:17.

strategy is. Because something is leaked doesn't make it inherently

:34:17.:34:21.

interesting. That is for me a side show. The party leader, the Deputy

:34:21.:34:24.

Prime Minister of the country, is talking about what we need to do as

:34:24.:34:28.

a country to ensure Britain's future prosperity and quality of

:34:28.:34:31.

life and standard of living, and about how the Liberal Democrats can

:34:31.:34:35.

make the journey from being a party of opposition for 75 years, to one

:34:35.:34:39.

of the three governing options in this country for the next

:34:39.:34:43.

generation those are really crucial messages right through and beyond

:34:43.:34:46.

2015. As you said before. If your tactics are working and your

:34:46.:34:50.

strategy is getting through to people. Why, on a central issue,

:34:50.:34:55.

like universal welfare, very rich mentioners receiving benefits and

:34:55.:34:58.

Winter Fuel Allowances and all the rest of it, why do we have that one

:34:58.:35:03.

policy, one day, five different views from all the Lib Dem

:35:03.:35:08.

ministers at the conference here. Different views from David Laws,

:35:08.:35:13.

Vince Cable, Nick Clegg, and Mr Foster, you can't even centrally

:35:13.:35:18.

agree on something like that? Government has made the policy

:35:18.:35:24.

completely plea -- completely clear. There is a question for the future

:35:24.:35:28.

if it is a good use of reforce relatively poor people in work to

:35:28.:35:35.

have their taxes used to give a lot of money to people like Alan Sugar

:35:35.:35:41.

and Peter Stringfellow. I would have thought, intelligent people,

:35:41.:35:45.

watching this programme, would be interested in intelligent debate at

:35:45.:35:49.

a party conference about whether poor people in work should

:35:49.:35:54.

subsidise the lifestyle of Alan Sugar, that isn't an issue for the

:35:54.:35:57.

Autumn Statement or budget. There is a big message here, when the

:35:57.:36:01.

Government says we are all in it together, that is true. Maybe

:36:01.:36:04.

people think it is a Conservative slogan or they don't like the

:36:04.:36:09.

slogan. The central truth of it remains, which is we are borrowing

:36:10.:36:14.

as a country a billion pounds every three days. That is not sustainable.

:36:14.:36:18.

If we are not make the journey from austerity to shared prosperity, we,

:36:18.:36:23.

as a country, will have to face up to difficult but hard truths. And

:36:23.:36:28.

he as a leader of a party right in the centre ground of politics will

:36:28.:36:35.

be able to talk about that some. -- tomorrow.

:36:35.:36:40.

Was the apology of Nick Clegg a success. I know you are hoping for

:36:40.:36:44.

number 40 in the UK charts with a turn around of it. Was it a

:36:44.:36:48.

constructive use of the message? There is a serious point here. We

:36:48.:36:56.

are half way through the parliament, the question for the party is

:36:56.:37:01.

whether we spend ages analysing decisions made in 2010 or go on for

:37:01.:37:05.

2015. There are two groups of people, knows who won't give Nick

:37:05.:37:09.

Clegg a hearing whatever he says. Those people will say they don't

:37:09.:37:13.

like him or agree with what he's saying. There are other people out

:37:13.:37:18.

there, those less likely to phone into talk shows and express their

:37:18.:37:24.

views in vosive rus terms, they understand that Nick Clegg hadn't

:37:24.:37:29.

been in Government and the party hadn't been in for many generations

:37:29.:37:34.

and accept that it is a place to make mistakes in politics, and

:37:34.:37:37.

accept that he made the mistake, and are willing to accept the

:37:37.:37:43.

things he has done and give him a fair hearing tomorrow. As minister

:37:43.:37:47.

for state for crime reduction, do you think when a police officer is

:37:47.:37:51.

sworn at by a member of public, do you think that person should be

:37:51.:37:55.

arrested? That is an artful way of asking yesterday another Andrew

:37:55.:37:59.

Mitchell question, which has been a theme of the media through the

:37:59.:38:02.

conference. I think the Prime Minister got it right when he said

:38:02.:38:06.

that what Andrew Mitchell was reported as saying was wrong and

:38:06.:38:10.

inappropriate, that's the point of view put by the Prime Minister, all

:38:10.:38:14.

the people watching will agree with that. Does he have to say more to

:38:15.:38:20.

explain himself, or has he done enough, according to you? I think

:38:20.:38:24.

people watching the programme will agree that if what he is report to

:38:24.:38:28.

have said is what he said, or anything approximating to that is

:38:28.:38:33.

what he said, and of course, Andrew Mitchell denies that he said what

:38:33.:38:38.

the police officer claimed he said. Well, that whole way of talking to

:38:38.:38:43.

a person like a police officer is clearly an inappropriate way, let

:38:43.:38:46.

alone a Government minister. I think for people to behave

:38:46.:38:49.

generally, it is not a question of the law but a question of good

:38:49.:38:57.

planners. Are you an image person or a word person, do you remember

:38:57.:39:00.

voices from the radio or faces from the television, if you had had to

:39:00.:39:03.

learn something off by heart, how would you do it. The science or art

:39:03.:39:07.

of data visualisation, is the growing philosophy of how best to

:39:07.:39:10.

project the material on to our brains when information is

:39:10.:39:14.

screaming at us all the time. The most successful in their field will

:39:14.:39:19.

be recognised at an award ceremony from London's ICA, we will hear

:39:19.:39:23.

from two Evangelists in the field in a moment. Here is a little of

:39:23.:39:28.

what we are talking about. The war is currently costing us �12 million

:39:28.:39:32.

a day. That is the same cost as employing 100,000 nurses and

:39:32.:39:37.

150,000 care workers. How did you feel about what you just heard from

:39:37.:39:42.

Tony Benn, now let's hear it again with the right pictures. The war is

:39:42.:39:47.

currently costing us over �12 mill kwhron a day. That is the same cost

:39:47.:39:53.

-- �12 million day, that is the same cost as 100,000 nurses and

:39:53.:39:58.

150,000 care worker. To theal cost of civilian Afghans dead, like the

:39:58.:40:04.

cost of war is unknown, but cautious estimates exceed 40,000

:40:04.:40:09.

people. Did the visuals heighten the impact. The theory of data

:40:09.:40:16.

visualisation, a sin they sees of story telling, regurpblg station

:40:16.:40:21.

and design, hits different parts of the train, maybe more analytical.

:40:21.:40:26.

Take this one, what American voters care about. You can click on

:40:26.:40:31.

"climate change" and see how attitudes have changed year by year,

:40:31.:40:34.

Democrat and Republican. Then click on terrorism instead and do it all

:40:34.:40:44.
:40:44.:40:45.

again. The process makes you feel stimulated and informed, is it

:40:45.:40:51.

meritricious. In the data bank of power plants and factories around

:40:51.:40:57.

the world, 20 -times more complex than any previous virus code, it

:40:57.:41:01.

had an array of capablities, the ability to turn up the pressure

:41:01.:41:05.

among nuclear reactors or switch off oil pipeline, and they could

:41:05.:41:09.

tell the system operators everything was normal. It looks

:41:09.:41:15.

beautiful, but the visuals are just glorified subtitles, is data

:41:15.:41:19.

visualisation truly a new art form, or the pop culture offspring of

:41:19.:41:24.

real analysis. I'm joined by two data

:41:24.:41:29.

visualisation specialists, the founder of Information Is Beautiful

:41:29.:41:33.

awards, and Kenneth Neil Cukier, the data visualisation expert from

:41:33.:41:37.

the Economist Magazine. Do you have a sense that we are taking more in,

:41:37.:41:41.

or we are just taking it in a different way? It feels there is a

:41:41.:41:44.

lot more data and information around. We are looking for some

:41:45.:41:48.

kind of solution that allows us to gobble that information and

:41:48.:41:57.

understand it on the fly. When we are moving fast. Data

:41:57.:42:00.

visualisingation seems to be able to translate that understanding

:42:00.:42:07.

quicker than text. Is it more polemic, sub blimal messages, the

:42:07.:42:15.

way that used to -- subliminal information in a way it used to?

:42:15.:42:22.

Probably not. The visualisation will have the same shortcomings as

:42:22.:42:27.

words. You can do more with it than words and less than others. It is a

:42:27.:42:31.

new medium, there is a Rennaissance going on of the new tools we have

:42:31.:42:35.

to show highly quantitative information, to say it is more poll

:42:35.:42:41.

lem kal, probably not. Let's look at a few examples, you have brought

:42:41.:42:46.

in favourites, and the viewers will know it as what we call chart porn,

:42:46.:42:49.

a way to get people to look at things they like looking at it.

:42:49.:42:58.

What is this? It is Denmark looking at survey results about Islamic

:42:58.:43:04.

head dress. The designer has done a pie chart and used the medium

:43:04.:43:10.

itself to express it. It is the way of opening up the subject, and

:43:10.:43:16.

stopping the enwit that we have when we look at it. You have the

:43:16.:43:20.

equivalent of the bar chart on the headbands? It is using a different

:43:20.:43:28.

approach to visualise that data. Has more impact and is more

:43:28.:43:33.

memorable. Take us through the next one, the 999 calls? In New York

:43:33.:43:39.

they have 311 for non-emergency phone calls, the municiple services,

:43:39.:43:46.

this, going from left to right is the frequency of certain types of

:43:46.:43:51.

calls in a period. The noise is the pink bar going through the middle.

:43:51.:43:57.

You have dead animal removal, road kill, a big issue in New York.

:43:57.:44:02.

Noisy neighbours, graffiti, and so on. Why is that more effective than

:44:02.:44:07.

a bar chart that could show meet same thing? It is depicting it as a

:44:07.:44:12.

landscape. You can roamit yourself and find your own connections,

:44:12.:44:16.

explore patterns. It is also showing lots of variables all at

:44:16.:44:19.

once. It is showing a vast and extraordinary amount of information,

:44:19.:44:23.

that you can take in immediately. Imagine if you worked in public

:44:23.:44:30.

serves and you wanted to bring those who are specialists to this

:44:30.:44:33.

type of complaint with the complaint that was made. With lost

:44:33.:44:37.

property you want it in the afternoon. You know that now

:44:37.:44:40.

through this. With the dead animal removal, you want to do that

:44:40.:44:43.

quickly, because it could be a source of health hazard. You would

:44:43.:44:47.

know when to put the person there who would be able to interact with

:44:47.:44:53.

the caller better to get emergency people to clean it up. Looking at

:44:53.:44:57.

your examples, they pick out the US map and the states, using it to

:44:57.:45:01.

very different effect. This was a mind-boggle when I saw it, I

:45:01.:45:06.

couldn't get my head round it? Great, it was not so great it was a

:45:06.:45:11.

mind boggle, but it is an interactive map, if you could mouse

:45:11.:45:16.

over it you could see more data. Russia is where Texas is. The map

:45:16.:45:21.

in the United States, in the form of the GDP of the country, that the

:45:21.:45:26.

state corresponds to. Texas has $1 trillion in terms of wealth in

:45:26.:45:30.

terms of the size of the economy. So has Russia, we put that there

:45:30.:45:35.

together. Who knew that Italy, the bot of Europe, should have an

:45:35.:45:41.

economy about the second or eighth largest in the world, also the size

:45:41.:45:46.

of California, $2 trillion. Greece we think is basket case because of

:45:46.:45:49.

the problems they face. Washington state is a small but important

:45:49.:45:53.

economy in America. You have the same in population. They stay with

:45:53.:45:57.

this map and it changes colour, talk us through now. Saudi Arabia

:45:57.:46:02.

has the same number of people as Texas? That's right. 25 million

:46:02.:46:07.

people in Saudi Arabia, it is one of the geopolitically strategic

:46:07.:46:11.

countries in the world. Mexico may not be strategic, depending on

:46:11.:46:18.

butter reet toes, but you can see that Texas punches above its weight

:46:18.:46:26.

in terms of those 25 million people having a presance if it was its own

:46:26.:46:30.

state. Poland has large state, so too California has a massive state

:46:30.:46:34.

for America. It is a way of reconcept actualising the United

:46:34.:46:39.

States, for many people it is breath taking that this one country,

:46:39.:46:43.

without one country in the UN, has the heft that it does. Fascinating,

:46:43.:46:47.

thank you very much. That is all we have time for in Newsnight tonight,

:46:47.:46:57.
:46:57.:47:21.

Paul Mason is here tomorrow, from Paul Mason is here tomorrow, from

:47:21.:47:24.

all of us, a very good night. The worst is nearly over, certainly

:47:24.:47:28.

by Wednesday things looking better across the northern half of the UK,

:47:28.:47:32.

in terms of the lack of rain out of the sky. Heavy showers further

:47:32.:47:36.

south. A welcome return of sunshine in northern parts of England,

:47:36.:47:39.

Northern Ireland and southern Scotland. One or two showers in

:47:39.:47:43.

Northern Ireland, nothing like the intensity we have seen. Further

:47:43.:47:46.

south a scattering of heavy showers, sunshine inbetween. Temperatures

:47:46.:47:50.

into the mid-teens not feeling too bad. The south west of England,

:47:50.:47:55.

South Wales, could be the focus of heavier downpour. Not the

:47:55.:48:00.

widespread rain seen recently, the ground saturated, so more localised

:48:00.:48:04.

problems maybe. For Northern Ireland it looks like staying dry,

:48:04.:48:08.

temperatures around 14. A cool breeze flowing from the north. That

:48:08.:48:13.

is the story across much of Scotlanded today. 1 degrees in

:48:13.:48:23.
:48:23.:48:26.

Inverness, and glos co-a fairly ples -- 14 degrees in innerves, but

:48:26.:48:32.

With the cull of badgers about to begin, Newsnight speaks to protesters about their tactics to stop the killing. Farmers and wildlife experts join Emily Maitlis to discuss whether shooting badgers will prevent the spread of bovine TB.


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