27/09/2012 Newsnight


27/09/2012

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark.


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You can hear it any pub in the land, eastern European migrants are

:00:10.:00:14.

taking British jobs. Tonight, how eastern European migrants are being

:00:14.:00:20.

exploited by British employers. To get around the law they're taken on

:00:20.:00:25.

as notionally self-employed. Contracts don't mean what you think

:00:25.:00:35.
:00:35.:00:38.

they mean. Can you bring her down stirs. That is not a contract, it

:00:38.:00:42.

is provisional. We'll discuss why our immigration system is failing

:00:42.:00:46.

and what should be done to fix it. After days of protests the Spanish

:00:46.:00:49.

government tells its people that public spending is about to be cut

:00:49.:00:59.
:00:59.:01:03.

drastically. In Madrid tonight, there are no protests, just

:01:03.:01:06.

resignation as 40 billion euros of cuts are announced.

:01:06.:01:09.

Exonerated in the summer, found guilty of the same alleged offence

:01:09.:01:16.

today. Is the captain of Chelsea a victim of double jeopardy? Does

:01:16.:01:23.

Magna Carter mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain? And, at least

:01:23.:01:26.

David Cameron knows a bit more. But what is it fair to expect a

:01:26.:01:30.

political leader to know? We've come up with our own quiz.

:01:30.:01:34.

Romania and Bulgaria are both part of the European Union. The European

:01:34.:01:38.

Union believes in free movement of labour. So both Bulgarians and

:01:38.:01:43.

Romanians are free to work here, right? Wrong. When the two

:01:43.:01:46.

countries joined the European Union, the Blair government promised

:01:46.:01:50.

strict conditions on those who came to work in Britain. This has not

:01:50.:01:54.

surprisingly perhaps, turned out to be meaningless. The rules are being

:01:54.:01:58.

broken and broken brazenly. In the process, people coming to this

:01:58.:02:03.

country are being exploited and generally without any redress. Jim

:02:03.:02:13.
:02:13.:02:24.

At the very end of the tuba line in North London is Edgeware, the

:02:24.:02:31.

centre of London's Romanian community. The official best guess

:02:31.:02:36.

is 75,000 Romanians have come to Britain since EU membership in 2007.

:02:36.:02:42.

The true figure is may be much higher. But while Romanians and

:02:42.:02:46.

Bulgarians have every right to live in the UK, they don't have an

:02:46.:02:54.

automatic right to work here. KNOCKING.

:02:54.:02:58.

Extra restrictions were placed on workers from both countries when

:02:58.:03:02.

they joined the EU. Those rules mean that as employees they have to

:03:02.:03:06.

stick to jobs that are highly skilled or in sectors where there

:03:06.:03:15.

is a shortage of labour. In many, low-paid service jobs, it is not

:03:15.:03:22.

difficult to hear a Romanian accent, a Bulgarian voice. How is that

:03:22.:03:27.

possible? Who are these workers living and working in the grey

:03:27.:03:34.

economy? Can you bring her downstairs? It's was 2007 and just

:03:34.:03:43.

a few weeks after Romania joined the EU, this lady took a coach to

:03:43.:03:49.

London. Like thousands of other migrants, she took a gamble so

:03:49.:03:55.

hotel cleaning was in obvious place to start. She has never had before

:03:55.:03:58.

right to work as an employee in this country, but there is a

:03:58.:04:02.

loophole in emigration law. It you are Romanian or Bulgarian, you are

:04:02.:04:12.
:04:12.:04:27.

free to work anywhere in the UK as The suspicion is, workers like this

:04:27.:04:31.

are not really self- employed. Instead they are treated like

:04:31.:04:38.

employees, but often with less pay, fewer rights and no job protection.

:04:38.:04:41.

But, what is in it for the agencies? By using self employed

:04:41.:04:46.

labour, they might be able to avoid some these light National Insurance.

:04:46.:04:50.

They don't have to pay holiday or sickness benefits, there are no

:04:50.:04:53.

contracts, maternity pay and they can easily lay off staff with

:04:54.:04:59.

little comeback. So much so, or bogus and employment has been

:04:59.:05:04.

called the loophole of choice for many low-paid sectors. It is

:05:04.:05:08.

everybody, it is a process which does not help. For industry it

:05:08.:05:13.

creates an environment where there seems to be cowboys operating

:05:13.:05:17.

outside the law, which is something we are keen they do not do and we

:05:17.:05:21.

have put everything in place to stop them. The Government does not

:05:21.:05:25.

get the tax and National Insurance, the workers are exploited and the

:05:25.:05:30.

individual employer, their reputation is at risk. The latest

:05:30.:05:34.

figures show 94,000 people living in the UK are Romanian by birth.

:05:34.:05:38.

Higher than all the EU states like Slovakia, Hungary and the Czech

:05:38.:05:45.

Republic. Figures from the University of Oxford say 27,000 of

:05:45.:05:49.

those say they are self-employed. Those figures are based on survey

:05:49.:05:58.

data, but experts agree the real number is likely to be higher. So,

:05:58.:06:01.

we set off in the footsteps of many of those young Romanians to try and

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find a job in the UK. We teamed up with a young journalist on Romania

:06:06.:06:14.

and she does not want her name used in his report.

:06:15.:06:20.

Bank statements, and you can see an array of samples. The first step is

:06:20.:06:24.

to get a proof of address and bank account if you do not have one

:06:24.:06:30.

already. You can use these to take to the bank to open an account.

:06:30.:06:38.

This is where the internet comes in. It offers everything from fake

:06:38.:06:43.

people defied, to gas bills and tax returns. They are sold as a novelty

:06:43.:06:48.

items to get around the law, but he would pay �75 for novelty bank

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statement? We called a dozen recruitment agencies specialising

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in the hospitality sector. Mine wouldn't accept on the self-

:06:59.:07:04.

employed basis because it would break the law. But three said they

:07:04.:07:09.

would take on reporter on. Calibre International supplies cleaning

:07:09.:07:13.

staff to some of the best known five-star hotels in the capital.

:07:13.:07:17.

She is offered a job that evening cleaning at an upmarket, London

:07:17.:07:21.

restaurants. When she inquires about hotel where, she is told to

:07:22.:07:31.
:07:32.:07:48.

lie about her experience. -- hotel If you days later, and Calibre

:07:48.:07:54.

sends us to a job interview in central London. There., St Ermin's

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Hotel reopened last year after a �30 million refit. A-night here

:07:59.:08:04.

over the Olympic Games cost around �300 for a standard double room.

:08:04.:08:08.

Olympic referees stayed here and it was used as a base for the tourism

:08:08.:08:15.

industry. Our reporter works two days for no pay training, before

:08:15.:08:21.

starting a proper ship. The working day starts at 8:00am, and it is a

:08:21.:08:25.

hard, physical job and cleaners are under pressure to clean rooms as

:08:25.:08:30.

fast as they can. Is this really self- employment? Chris Jeans is

:08:30.:08:34.

one of the most senior employment lawyers. We showed him footage from

:08:34.:08:37.

St Ermin's Hotel, although he cannot comment on any individual

:08:37.:08:42.

case, he says there are key factors which determines whether someone is

:08:42.:08:47.

honestly self- employed. If they are told to turn up and work

:08:47.:08:54.

between certain hours using materials provided by the workplace

:08:54.:08:59.

or somebody else, on the face of it they won't be self- employed.

:08:59.:09:03.

at the hotel, are self- employed report does not have much control

:09:03.:09:12.

over her own working day. Make sure you will be here in the office on

:09:12.:09:18.

time. I don't want to see no one outside. I don't want to see no one

:09:18.:09:23.

in the toilets at 8 am. She has to sign in and out just like the other

:09:23.:09:28.

employees. She has to use the equipment and cleaning materials

:09:28.:09:32.

she is given by the hotel. The quality of her work is quality

:09:32.:09:38.

control. No excuse for having brown stains on the bottom of cubs.

:09:38.:09:44.

is not allowed to take breaks when she wants. The break is at

:09:44.:09:54.
:09:54.:10:01.

Any company that employs a Romanian or Bulgarian worker without the

:10:01.:10:07.

right permission can face criminal sanctions - a �5,000 fine or

:10:07.:10:11.

imprison side since. We have found out since 2007, any one successful

:10:11.:10:16.

prosecution has been brought by the Home Office in England and Wales.

:10:16.:10:20.

We have enough regulation and legislation. We are looking for

:10:20.:10:23.

Government agencies to enforce it, so we don't have this race to the

:10:23.:10:27.

bottom. It is about Government agencies and forcing the

:10:27.:10:32.

legislation that is already there. Two days on, our reporter leaves

:10:32.:10:39.

her job. A week later, her first payslips arrives. For two day's

:10:39.:10:45.

hard work, she receives just under �30. She should have been paid at

:10:45.:10:51.

least �90, self- employed or not, on the minimum wage rules. There is

:10:51.:10:55.

plenty of law to stop you doing it, what is necessary is enforcement.

:10:55.:10:59.

As in every other sector, you can have as many laws as you like, but

:10:59.:11:05.

if there is no one there to enforce it, it is ineffective. We went back

:11:05.:11:15.
:11:15.:11:24.

to Calibre to ask why the pay was Most agencies pay their workers by

:11:24.:11:29.

the hour, but although Calibre claims to do this, both to its

:11:29.:11:32.

cleaners and to the programme, we than the agency are only paying for

:11:32.:11:36.

the rooms that were cleaned. It makes it difficult, if not

:11:36.:11:40.

impossible for many dealers, as they see those starting out with

:11:40.:11:50.
:11:50.:12:03.

less experience to learn the Then, when we asked for a copy of

:12:03.:12:13.
:12:13.:12:35.

our own paperwork, it is torn to We showed some of our findings to

:12:35.:12:39.

the tax authorities and the Government. They say they take the

:12:39.:12:44.

issues seriously and will now investigate. Odd job search is over,

:12:44.:12:48.

but serious questions remain about the way immigration and Labour

:12:48.:12:54.

rules are enforced, not just in the hotel sector but across the UK.

:12:54.:12:57.

In a statement Calibre said it provides details of its self-

:12:57.:13:00.

employed workers to the Home Office, which it says, has never raised any

:13:00.:13:03.

concerns. It maintains that those workers pay virtually the same

:13:03.:13:05.

amount of tax and national insurance as salaried staff. St

:13:05.:13:08.

Ermin's Hotel, which featured in that report, said it is no longer

:13:08.:13:11.

working with Calibre after it became aware recently of possible

:13:11.:13:21.
:13:21.:13:21.

irregularities in some of its employment practices.

:13:21.:13:28.

We had the Labour MP on the all- party group on migration. Cristina

:13:28.:13:33.

Irmie edits an online newspaper for Romanians living in Britain, and

:13:33.:13:40.

Kevin Green is boss of the employments Federation which

:13:40.:13:45.

represents employment agencies. How widespread is this exploitation?

:13:45.:13:51.

is very widespread. It becomes more so because of the difficulties

:13:51.:13:55.

Romanians continue to face in coming to this country and getting

:13:55.:14:00.

a legal status. So none of this is news to you, however shocking to

:14:00.:14:07.

other people? It is just taking bigger precautions. Would you

:14:07.:14:10.

describe your industry as regulated? It is very regulated.

:14:10.:14:16.

But the regulations are not enforced? Absolutely. Despite the

:14:16.:14:24.

fact that three out of 12 agencies, 25% in that sample appeared to be

:14:24.:14:30.

doing exactly what we saw in the film? It is right in terms of the

:14:30.:14:35.

percentage of firms contacted. You are picking on a particular sector

:14:35.:14:39.

which does have a greater percentage. If you think about the

:14:39.:14:44.

industry, we represent executive search firms, interim manage firms,

:14:44.:14:50.

all the UK recruitment. And this sector is under huge pressure,

:14:51.:14:55.

driven by competition from the hotels to the recruitment

:14:55.:15:00.

businesses. Were you not surprised? I am not surprised. What is the

:15:00.:15:04.

consequence of this behaviour? Bogus self-employment is a growing

:15:04.:15:11.

scandal. You get hotels like St Ermin's Hotel charging �300 a night

:15:11.:15:16.

for a room, which don't want to employ directly, using rogue

:15:16.:15:19.

agencies and increasingly, gang masters who don't want to and ploy

:15:19.:15:25.

directly. They make the rouble work as an offer they cannot refuse,

:15:25.:15:28.

deliberately designed to denied their responsibilities and rights.

:15:28.:15:34.

What it does, it exploits the newly arrived, it undercuts the host

:15:34.:15:40.

nation, workers in the host nation, and it undercuts reputable agencies,

:15:40.:15:46.

the reputable agencies who undercut. What your P's has done is to expose

:15:46.:15:51.

the scandal. We need effective enforcement of the law. The

:15:51.:16:00.

Government is going in exactly the The reason we are in this position

:16:00.:16:04.

is because of regulations brought in by your party will you were in

:16:04.:16:11.

government. We brought in the gang masters Licensing Agency... But the

:16:11.:16:15.

scam of self-employment was a consequence of the cap put on

:16:15.:16:18.

migration of this country for people wanting to work from Romania

:16:18.:16:23.

and Bulgaria, which your government brought in. We could have done more

:16:23.:16:29.

but we did much. Including, equal treatment of agency workers and the

:16:30.:16:33.

directly employed. Now the government is cutting back on

:16:33.:16:38.

enforcement of the law. Everyone agrees that what is necessary is

:16:38.:16:43.

proper enforcement of the law. Christina, have the consequence of

:16:43.:16:47.

this law been to deter people from coming from Romania to Britain?

:16:47.:16:52.

at all. I would like to make a point on the fact that the

:16:52.:17:00.

Migration Advisory Committee was actually consulting the Romanian

:17:00.:17:04.

community in the previous years, and that exploitation and

:17:04.:17:11.

vulnerable workers were the causes that we pleaded on and we tried to

:17:11.:17:15.

demonstrate that you are not stopping people from coming here.

:17:15.:17:19.

It has no effect, it is not stopping people coming here, they

:17:19.:17:24.

are just being exploited when they get here. But you do understand the

:17:24.:17:28.

force of the argument that the first response of a government is

:17:28.:17:32.

to its own citizens and it had to take a step to protect them from

:17:32.:17:37.

being undercut in the workplace. do understand that but we keep on

:17:37.:17:42.

talking and having a debate about illegal migrants, but then we are

:17:42.:17:49.

actually talking about union, European Union citizens. But your

:17:49.:17:53.

compatriots, as much as the employees who may be British

:17:53.:17:58.

companies, whatever the nationality of the people they employ, they are

:17:58.:18:08.
:18:08.:18:09.

bending the rules. Are they not doing that because...? If they do

:18:09.:18:12.

not have a legal right to be here, what are they doing here?

:18:13.:18:18.

cannot blame the victims for their eggs flotation -- exploitation. You

:18:18.:18:27.

get rogue companies that exploit... The first duty of the government is

:18:27.:18:30.

to ensure fair and equal treatment of all workers so that you don't

:18:30.:18:34.

have exploitation and undercutting and that is what we have got

:18:34.:18:40.

increasingly. The question is, why do we have the different rules for

:18:41.:18:46.

Bulgarians and Romanians? That is the key issue. A what is your

:18:46.:18:50.

argument? That anyone within the EU should be free to come and work

:18:50.:18:56.

here? We are the only ones that are not allowed to work here. The he is

:18:56.:19:00.

arguing that everybody should be treated the same. I think that

:19:00.:19:05.

would give us an open labour market, if we are going to have free

:19:05.:19:10.

movement of labour... It would help in this situation where you have

:19:10.:19:14.

rogue agencies been complicit with companies to manipulate the rules

:19:14.:19:19.

so they get cheap labour, and the rules were clearly defined,

:19:19.:19:24.

originally, to be helpful, but actually what they are doing is we

:19:24.:19:30.

have got victims, in terms of the exploited individuals, our sector

:19:30.:19:33.

that is undermined by a rogue agencies and the government sitting

:19:33.:19:38.

on its hands, and we need robust enforcement so we don't end up with

:19:38.:19:42.

exploitation of legitimate businesses. A fair treatment and

:19:42.:19:48.

fair competition. Are you in a position to commit the Labour Party

:19:48.:19:53.

to imposing no restrictions on any future accession of states to the

:19:53.:19:57.

European Union? Of course it is what we should manage migration...

:19:57.:20:03.

That is what Tony Blair said about Bulgaria... We need to focus on

:20:03.:20:08.

what Kevin has just said. Which is? Everybody should be treated the

:20:08.:20:16.

same? Absolutely. A pernicious business model that exploits the

:20:16.:20:20.

newly arrived and undercuts the host community, that is wrong.

:20:20.:20:26.

only because of conditions imposed by your government. No, it is

:20:26.:20:29.

because of rogue agencies and gang masters who say to newly arrived

:20:29.:20:36.

workers, if you want to work you have to be self-employed, like that

:20:36.:20:40.

woman then who tore up the contract and somebody asked for a document,

:20:40.:20:45.

she got up the contract and tore it up and said, you have to understand

:20:45.:20:50.

your status in this country. What kind of country is this, Jeremy,

:20:50.:20:55.

with behaviour like that? created this status, your party in

:20:55.:21:01.

government! We have... You except that, don't you? Bogus self-

:21:01.:21:06.

employment. It is a consequence of your policy on employment rights in

:21:06.:21:12.

this country for people from Bulgaria and Romania. It is a

:21:12.:21:16.

consequence of bad employees who want to take advantage... --

:21:16.:21:22.

employers. I understand she was saved there should be no

:21:22.:21:26.

discrimination, but you previously said the responsibility of the

:21:26.:21:32.

government first is towards its own citizens. What is your opinion?

:21:32.:21:36.

this particular case, as somebody who has been established here for a

:21:36.:21:41.

long time, and he has done business, if you want the rules not to be

:21:41.:21:46.

bent, then don't allow them to be bent. And you can actually control

:21:46.:21:51.

it. You know the sectors where vulnerable workers are. A you all

:21:51.:21:56.

agree essentially that the rules must be enforced. Absolutely. Fair

:21:56.:22:06.
:22:06.:22:09.

treatment, fair competition, no place for the road -- the rogues.

:22:09.:22:14.

Either look at the rules and say, free access like for anybody else

:22:14.:22:17.

from the European Union, or you have to enforce these different

:22:17.:22:23.

rules because otherwise you get the individuals being exploited and the

:22:23.:22:33.
:22:33.:22:34.

market be manipulated. Thank you very much. A budget for a crisis to

:22:34.:22:37.

help get us out of a crisis was the way the Spanish Deputy Prime

:22:38.:22:40.

Minister described her government's announcements today. What she meant

:22:40.:22:45.

was that there are all sorts of things you are not going to get. 40

:22:45.:22:48.

billion euros worth of cuts to spending in total. Howls of

:22:48.:22:50.

distress from Spanish citizens, while the European Commission duly

:22:51.:22:54.

barked its support. But what no-one knows yet, although it won't be

:22:54.:22:57.

long, is whether the hustlers who make and break currencies will be

:22:57.:23:04.

pacified. Joe Lynam is in Madrid. This time last night, there was a

:23:04.:23:08.

mass of young men and women are venting their anger before they

:23:08.:23:14.

were battened offer the streets by 400 police officers. Today, traffic

:23:14.:23:18.

is flowing freely and access to parliament is there. That is

:23:18.:23:23.

because Spaniards have a weary sense of acceptance and resignation

:23:23.:23:30.

about the Budget today, health and education to be cut by 15%, but I

:23:30.:23:40.
:23:40.:23:40.

suspect the government is not enacting the kind of austerity that

:23:40.:23:45.

it will be required when, not if, they have to go as or more bail-

:23:45.:23:49.

outs to the European Union. Spaniards are seeing how this will

:23:49.:23:54.

affect their lives. Spain has been bracing itself, counting down to

:23:54.:23:58.

what they knew would be painful but unavoidable. The TV stations have

:23:59.:24:03.

been covering little else for weeks. There viewers would doubtless

:24:03.:24:07.

shocked at the intensity of the protests from Spanish streets ahead

:24:08.:24:12.

of the Budget, as thousands of frustrated and jobless had to be

:24:13.:24:17.

taken away from the vicinity of the parliament. The police are now

:24:17.:24:21.

clearing the square in front of the parliament and they are dispersing

:24:21.:24:25.

protesters that way, as it were, to make sure that the main

:24:25.:24:29.

thoroughfares in Madrid are clear for the traffic tomorrow morning.

:24:29.:24:34.

Today in the newsroom of a business channel, I wanted to get a sense of

:24:34.:24:37.

what the silent majority in Spain were making of the sweeping cuts

:24:37.:24:42.

that they knew were needed but have trouble swallowing. One of the

:24:42.:24:46.

things that Mediterranean people ask is our mood changes very

:24:46.:24:52.

quickly, and now we are really pessimistic. We had been so for

:24:52.:24:56.

four years but now the vision of not having light at the end of the

:24:56.:25:03.

tunnel, it is doing things even worse. Charged with the this

:25:03.:25:07.

miraculous turnaround is during centre-right government, which has

:25:07.:25:11.

had the shortest honeymoon in political history. We were

:25:11.:25:16.

expecting to have a deficit that was going to be about 7% of the

:25:16.:25:22.

economy, and it turned out to be 9% of the economy. In just one month

:25:22.:25:29.

we did not have that time to react, so in our political manifesto, the

:25:29.:25:34.

main aim was that we were going to give Spain what Spain was needing.

:25:34.:25:39.

And there were not every actual promises, but a general promise to

:25:39.:25:45.

try to manage the situation and improve it. The figures were worse

:25:45.:25:50.

but we are struggling very hard. But what with the opposition

:25:50.:25:56.

Socialists do different league? Under Jose's Zapatero, Spain had

:25:56.:25:59.

between 2004 and 2011, one of the biggest property bubbles in the

:25:59.:26:06.

world, followed by one of the biggest collapses. Very soon, we

:26:06.:26:11.

will present a comprehensive reform of the hawk of fiscal system in

:26:11.:26:16.

Spain. It has to be more progressive -- the whole fiscal

:26:16.:26:22.

system. In Spain, corporations only pay 11% from their benefits. At the

:26:22.:26:28.

same time there are a large number of citizens who do not pay taxes

:26:28.:26:32.

through income tax because they pay two societies, because they are

:26:32.:26:37.

what we call liberal professionals, such as people who put all their

:26:37.:26:42.

revenues inside a society and the escape paying taxes. There must be

:26:42.:26:46.

changes there and we need a more comprehensive system that is able

:26:46.:26:51.

to control more everybody. And when the budget was announced, it was

:26:51.:26:57.

depressingly predictable. This economy has already seen 65 billion

:26:57.:27:02.

euros sucked out of it this year. Today it was confirmed a further 90

:27:02.:27:06.

billion euros will be slashed in the coming two. Inside the Madrid

:27:06.:27:10.

stock exchange, the budget was almost ignored. Shares which had

:27:10.:27:15.

crashed yesterday were up a bit today. In many ways there are two

:27:15.:27:19.

economies in Spain. One represented by the corporate giants who

:27:19.:27:24.

continued to flourish around the world, and then there is the real

:27:24.:27:28.

economy outside. One where unemployment is depressingly high

:27:28.:27:32.

and consumer spending depressingly low, so the challenge facing the

:27:32.:27:35.

government is to somehow cut the deficit and at the same time bridge

:27:35.:27:41.

the gap between his corporate world and a real world outside. Most of

:27:41.:27:45.

the people realise that we need these cuts. In the last general

:27:45.:27:51.

election, Mariano Rajoy was elected with a vast majority say people

:27:51.:27:56.

knew what they were voting for, maybe not that but what we need as

:27:56.:28:01.

a country, but you know, people feel that, all right, we need to

:28:01.:28:05.

cut but just cut on the other side and not from my pocket, and this is

:28:05.:28:12.

a problem. Tonight there was a much more sedate group of people from

:28:12.:28:16.

Madrid on the streets. Ordinary Spaniards are doubtless at home

:28:16.:28:21.

mean for their living standards. Tomorrow they will hear how many

:28:21.:28:26.

billions their broken banks need to stay afloat, just in time for yet

:28:26.:28:32.

another mass demonstration on Saturday for of --.

:28:32.:28:35.

For the best part of a thousand years the principle of double

:28:35.:28:38.

jeopardy has meant that, except in pretty rare cases, you can't be

:28:38.:28:42.

tried twice for the same offence. Today, the captain of Chelsea

:28:42.:28:44.

football team, John Terry, discovered the limits of double

:28:44.:28:48.

jeopardy. He was found not guilty of racial abuse in a court case

:28:48.:28:53.

Yet today, the Football Association banned him from four matches and

:28:53.:28:56.

fined him a couple of hundred thousand pounds for the same

:28:56.:28:59.

offence. He has a right to appeal, although he has not yet said

:28:59.:29:09.

His John Terry a racist who has finally been made an example of? Or

:29:09.:29:14.

a man cleared in the eyes of the law only to be punished by an

:29:14.:29:18.

anonymous FA panel sitting behind closed doors? What is not in doubt

:29:18.:29:23.

is that the Chelsea captain did after abusive language, including

:29:23.:29:28.

the word "black" to Anton Ferdinand in a Premier League game almost a

:29:28.:29:32.

year ago, but Terry claimed he was merely repeating what he thought

:29:32.:29:39.

the QPR defender had said to him. And that defence was good enough

:29:39.:29:43.

for Westminster Magistrates' Court, where the play was found not guilty

:29:43.:29:49.

of racial abuse following a trial in July. Despite that, but FA went

:29:50.:29:54.

ahead with its own disciplinary hearing this week. On the eve of

:29:54.:29:58.

that, be on offer England captain announced his retirement from

:29:58.:30:02.

international football -- the on- off England captain. He said the

:30:02.:30:06.

procedure had left his position untenable. Some feel it has been

:30:06.:30:10.

dragged out for too long for. has not been good because of what

:30:10.:30:15.

it has been about and I don't think it has helped that it was extended.

:30:15.:30:20.

It would have been far better if it had been taken on board before the

:30:20.:30:25.

Euros. Ferdinand snubs Terry earlier this season. The etiquette

:30:25.:30:31.

of the handshake, offered, refused, has become a vital part of match

:30:31.:30:36.

day. Elsewhere, Patrice Evra is ignored by Luis Suarez after the FA

:30:36.:30:44.

found the Liverpool player guilty of racial abuse. Football Forums

:30:44.:30:47.

and phone-ins are wondering tonight why Terry will sit out four games

:30:47.:30:53.

and pay a fine of �220,000 when Suarez was banned for eight games

:30:53.:31:00.

and fined �40,000. The FA has yet to elaborate on the findings.

:31:00.:31:04.

seems in stark contrast to the way the Olympians behaved in the summer

:31:04.:31:08.

and I think the use of this kind of language, whatever the provocation,

:31:08.:31:13.

the way they played and behave towards each other and officials is

:31:13.:31:17.

wrong and must change. The but an England great who notoriously

:31:17.:31:21.

suffered abuse says the problem of racism goes beyond the football

:31:21.:31:27.

grounds. You cannot get rid of racism out of football as long as

:31:27.:31:33.

it exists in society, so it should be targeted in society. The FA can

:31:33.:31:40.

only do what it can come up for 90 minutes three times a week.

:31:40.:31:44.

penalties against John Terry are suspended for 14 days while he

:31:44.:31:49.

decides whether to appeal. He says he is waiting for the FA's written

:31:49.:31:59.
:31:59.:32:02.

Pat Nevin played nearly 200 times the Chelsea. He joins us from

:32:02.:32:07.

Edinburgh. And we have a representative from the Football

:32:07.:32:10.

supporters' Federation. The language John Terry uses his

:32:10.:32:15.

offensive, but to warn you, the offensive words could come up in

:32:15.:32:18.

this discussion. In Edinburgh, what you make of the fact that somebody

:32:19.:32:22.

could be acquitted by a court of law and then found guilty by the

:32:22.:32:30.

FA? I was surprised they went that far. If you look at the rules in

:32:30.:32:33.

the Association of the FA, they say the rule of law should be taken

:32:33.:32:39.

into account. There is a part of me that does up Lord FA for taking

:32:40.:32:44.

this see recently. In football we have taken any suggestions of

:32:44.:32:49.

racism see Risley. I would argue football has been part of the

:32:49.:32:54.

changing in society and has had a positive effect. But I am

:32:54.:33:01.

uncomfortable, after working for myself the 32 years against racism,

:33:01.:33:05.

this leaves me feeling uncomfortable. As far as I

:33:05.:33:11.

understand, being found not guilty, but it is the use of the words and

:33:11.:33:15.

not the context that has been taken into account. We will come to the

:33:15.:33:21.

context soon, but what do you make of the fact there can be an

:33:21.:33:29.

acquittal of -- in a court of law and being found guilty by the FA.

:33:29.:33:32.

The FA are the custodians of English football and the charges

:33:32.:33:36.

brought against John Terry by them were in the context of breaking

:33:36.:33:42.

football rules. Were as the court case was about a public order

:33:42.:33:46.

offence, which he was acquitted of. He was charged with a public order

:33:46.:33:52.

offence, aggravated by race. There are two different standards. No

:33:52.:33:56.

criminal court case about the law, and then a breaking of paint will

:33:56.:34:00.

case, where the burden of proof is different, it is about the balance

:34:00.:34:07.

of propertied disease. They are both about racism? -- probabilities.

:34:07.:34:16.

He has, they are both about racism. What the FA appeared to do was

:34:16.:34:21.

discount the context in which the remarks, these offensive remarks

:34:21.:34:27.

were made? We don't know that, we have not seen the report from the

:34:27.:34:31.

panel. We cannot say why they came to the conclusion they did. In a

:34:31.:34:38.

previous case with Patrice Evra and Luis Suarez, there was a very

:34:38.:34:43.

detailed report which discussed why the balance of properties were as

:34:43.:34:46.

they were and why the case was found against Luis Suarez. Until we

:34:46.:34:50.

get the report, we cannot comment on why the FA panel made the

:34:50.:34:56.

decision and ruling it did. We will come to that case in a moment, what

:34:56.:35:01.

do you make of this distinction about context? I was stunned, it

:35:01.:35:04.

you ignore the context of any conversation it can change the

:35:04.:35:11.

meaning of it. It changes 180 degrees, the meaning of this. If

:35:11.:35:15.

you ignore the context, imagine a scenario where you go to the

:35:15.:35:22.

referee and say, him over there he called me a so and so. You get sent

:35:22.:35:31.

off and charged by the FA, because you're only report in the context.

:35:31.:35:34.

But we do have to wait for the written report to come out. But I

:35:34.:35:40.

would be surprised if it comes out with anything more than that.

:35:40.:35:45.

raises the question why the FA is so useless in all respects. I am

:35:45.:35:49.

sure you are too diplomatic to put it like that. You raise the

:35:49.:35:54.

question of Luis Suarez, who gets an eight-match ban for using the

:35:54.:36:02.

word Negro, and John Terry, used three very bad words and he gets a

:36:02.:36:09.

shorter ban. What is going on? of the problems with the FA, they

:36:10.:36:14.

are caught in the middle. You have Government's saying to the FA, get

:36:14.:36:19.

your house in order, racism is an issue we thought had been tackled

:36:19.:36:25.

and had gone. Clearly, it hasn't weather at grassroots level or in

:36:25.:36:30.

the national game. The F8 feel obliged to do something. The real

:36:30.:36:34.

problem and the typical to the FA have, where they need to go in the

:36:34.:36:38.

future is to be transparent about the rules of the game and how they

:36:38.:36:41.

apply in the context of racism. This thing about having a secret

:36:41.:36:46.

committee deciding one thing for one individual and another thing

:36:46.:36:49.

for another is where they fall foul. Do you understand what they're

:36:49.:36:59.
:36:59.:37:01.

doing when they come to these two contradictory, variant judgments?

:37:01.:37:07.

The chairman of the PFA, did often disagree with the treatment of the

:37:07.:37:12.

players. But there have been time and again I have disagreed with the

:37:12.:37:16.

FA. They do get a lot of things absolutely right, but on this

:37:16.:37:21.

occasion I think they have been frightened. As soon as racism

:37:21.:37:25.

becomes the discussion it becomes delicate. They want is seen to have

:37:25.:37:31.

some effect and action. I understand that, but dinner left

:37:31.:37:35.

just as ball by the wayside. Fenebahce de not let. We may find

:37:35.:37:40.

out that John Derry did ask the question. It that is the case there

:37:40.:37:45.

is a stain on his character now. He may never get rid of it, and I

:37:45.:37:51.

don't like to see miscarriages of justice in any position. And as

:37:51.:37:54.

because it is racism raising its ugly head, I don't think it is an

:37:54.:37:59.

excuse. So, the most powerful man in Britain doesn't know that the

:37:59.:38:02.

word Magna is Latin for big or great. David Cameron's decision to

:38:02.:38:06.

appear on an American chat show didn't do him any favours. And in a

:38:06.:38:09.

trice he elbowed his own speech to the United Nations off the front

:38:09.:38:12.

pages and replaced it with proof that when it comes to expensive

:38:12.:38:22.

education, you don't necessarily get what you pay for.

:38:22.:38:31.

When was the Magna Carter sign? 1215 on an island in the Thames.

:38:31.:38:38.

The literal translation? You are testing me. It would be good if you

:38:38.:38:44.

knew this. Yes it would be. Once the "there but for the grace

:38:44.:38:47.

of God" guffaws had died down today we thought it might be interesting

:38:47.:38:50.

to hear what various politicians thought the average Prime Minister

:38:50.:38:52.

ought to know. But amazingly, despite their willingness to tell

:38:52.:38:56.

us what to think on any other subject under the sun, most didn't

:38:56.:38:59.

want to appear to discuss their own level of knowledge. Gosh, they have

:38:59.:39:03.

busy lives. Sarah Wollaston said: "Humiliation on national TV?

:39:03.:39:06.

Tempting but I'm dropping my daughter at uni".

:39:06.:39:09.

Dominic Raab, who has a black belt third dan in Karate claimed he had

:39:09.:39:12.

to go to ante-natal classes. Nicholas Soames was appalled at the

:39:12.:39:14.

Prime Minister's ignorance, but gloriously undertaking vital

:39:14.:39:18.

conservation work in the north of England. Even Michael Fabricant,

:39:18.:39:21.

owner of Parliament's top hairpiece, claimed to know who'd written Rule

:39:21.:39:24.

Britannia, but unfortunately had to be at a top-level function in

:39:24.:39:28.

Glossop. However, two people bold or foolish enough to face the

:39:28.:39:35.

challenge are here. Patrick Mercer, MP for Newark used to be a soldier

:39:35.:39:37.

and Ruth Dudley Edwards, is a historian and novelist, although

:39:38.:39:47.
:39:48.:39:51.

not an MP Yet! Why do we expect our leaders to be knowledgeable?

:39:51.:39:56.

think we have got to have a basic level of knowledge of all different

:39:56.:40:01.

sorts of subjects. It is difficult when you get a new sports minister

:40:01.:40:06.

appointed, he or she is expected to be an expert in that particular

:40:06.:40:13.

field. This is different. What is your view? I actually thought when

:40:13.:40:18.

I heard about it, he was trying to play down being posh and was

:40:18.:40:22.

pretending not to know. I cannot understand why he wouldn't know

:40:22.:40:30.

that. He remembered the date. My Latin is terrible, but I don't care.

:40:30.:40:35.

I want him to understand history, I don't want him to remember dates. I

:40:35.:40:41.

say that as an historian who does not remember any dates. But to

:40:41.:40:45.

understand your country and history, not be able to answer stupid

:40:45.:40:50.

questions. So we expect our leaders understand the country. And a

:40:50.:40:54.

political leader has to understand political history which is why

:40:54.:40:59.

Magna Carter matters. I hope he understands Magna Carter, and I

:40:59.:41:04.

don't give a damn if he remembers dates. I don't think the detail

:41:04.:41:10.

matters, but the broad sets -- suite of alliances, the

:41:10.:41:13.

significance between donations and the great movements of history is

:41:13.:41:19.

important. You say it doesn't matter but it is all on the front

:41:19.:41:29.

pages? The art is the fault of the hacks. We are here because we are

:41:29.:41:35.

here. Now I am going to ask you some questions. It you think I am

:41:35.:41:40.

going to answer any University Challenge questions, I am not.

:41:40.:41:47.

Don't answer them, suit yourself. We will try. These are set by the

:41:47.:41:54.

questions editor on University Challenge. They are very relevant.

:41:54.:41:58.

From what age is it legally permissible for children to drink

:41:58.:42:02.

alcohol at home or at a friend's house with permission of a parent

:42:02.:42:11.

or legal clerk -- Guardian? For 14. Actually, it is five. This is in

:42:11.:42:18.

the citizenship test isn't it? It is full of this stuff. They are

:42:18.:42:27.

straight out of Tom's head. next one is, since April 30th, 2012,

:42:27.:42:36.

what is the price of a first-class stamp? 26p. 48. It is 60,

:42:36.:42:42.

apparently. I got sucked in. plebs would no, I am sure. What was

:42:42.:42:46.

the last group of people allowed to sit in the House of Commons, Roman

:42:46.:42:54.

Catholic, Jewish, Jedi Knights were atheists? Re M and Catholics.

:42:54.:43:02.

Atheists. Which of these languages is most similar to the Persian or

:43:02.:43:08.

Farr's the language? Arabic, Turkish, English, Azerbaijani,

:43:08.:43:13.

Hebrew? I am so glad I said I wouldn't answer the questions.

:43:13.:43:20.

me out on this one, you of the historian. This is done, you are

:43:20.:43:25.

having fun with us, it is the end of the programme. It does not

:43:25.:43:29.

matter if David Cameron did not know what Magna Carter actually

:43:29.:43:33.

meant. The important thing is he understands what it was, what it

:43:33.:43:38.

stood for and why it is important in our history. And why they get

:43:39.:43:42.

excited about it in Northern Ireland will stock for the benefit

:43:42.:43:52.

of the jury's view is, more curious than you are, the answer is English.

:43:52.:43:59.

Do you think the lesson of history that knowledgeable by ministers are

:43:59.:44:02.

more effective? A Prime Minister who does not have a knowledge of

:44:03.:44:09.

history is seriously disadvantaged. Why is that? The don't understand

:44:09.:44:12.

your country it you don't understand its history.

:44:12.:44:17.

shouldn't be Prime Minister it the don't have a feel for the

:44:17.:44:21.

traditions of the history of your country. I speak as an Irish person

:44:21.:44:27.

who lives here. I hope I understand my country, I hope I understand

:44:27.:44:31.

this country. Nobody should be Prime Minister without

:44:31.:44:35.

understanding the roots of the place. This is the point and was

:44:35.:44:40.

making. It you don't understand the broad sweep of relationships

:44:40.:44:44.

between countries, relationships between religions, the great events

:44:44.:44:54.
:44:54.:44:56.

that have shaped countries, it is Can you understand why somebody

:44:56.:45:00.

puts themselves to be asked these sorts of silly questions on

:45:00.:45:04.

television? Have not really, because we had done that tonight!

:45:04.:45:09.

Because he is trying to sell his country in America. The questions

:45:09.:45:14.

were foolish, he was not a damned for for going on it. He possibly

:45:14.:45:24.
:45:24.:45:27.

thought he would get sensible questions -- a dam to fool. I think

:45:27.:45:31.

he handled it reasonably sensibly and with humility. Sensible

:45:31.:45:35.

questions are about the nature of your country. Weekend leave it

:45:35.:45:41.

there. -- we cannot leave it there. That's all from Newsnight tonight.

:45:41.:45:44.

The actor Herbert Lom died today, five years short of 100. He was

:45:44.:45:47.

born in Prague in 1917, as Herbert Karel Angelo Kuchacevic ze

:45:47.:45:51.

Schluderpacheru. You can see why he changed his name when he came to

:45:51.:45:57.

Britain. Goodnight. I have never worked with you before. The major

:45:58.:46:03.

has and he says you have a master brain. He had better be right. You

:46:03.:46:08.

just worry about your plan because her part of it sounds like

:46:08.:46:18.
:46:18.:46:25.

something dreamt up in a booby- Good evening. The weather has been

:46:25.:46:31.

a lot kinder to us during the day on Thursday. Although we have a

:46:31.:46:35.

weather front moving south on Friday, it does not look as though

:46:35.:46:41.

it will give us that much trouble. Although strong gale force winds

:46:41.:46:49.

blowing across Scotland. Showers in northern England and Scotland. It

:46:49.:46:54.

will turn cloudy in the south-east and East Anglia after a reasonable

:46:54.:46:58.

start. That will hopefully clear away from the South West to give us

:46:58.:47:04.

brighter skies in the afternoon. But it will be a day are scattered

:47:04.:47:14.
:47:14.:47:20.

Gales are expected around the Highlands and they will continue

:47:20.:47:23.

through Friday night and into Saturday morning, but Saturday is

:47:23.:47:29.

looking like the best day of the weekend. Just a few showers, with a

:47:29.:47:34.

strong wind in the North East. A lot of fine sunny weather in the

:47:34.:47:40.

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