11/10/2012 Newsnight


11/10/2012

Newsnight investigates the failure of some of the country's most treasured national institutions to prevent Jimmy Savile's abuses of children. With Eddie Mair.


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Transcript


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If all the allegations about Sir Jimmy Savile are true, he raped and

:00:13.:00:19.

sexually abused girls across the country for decades. At the BBC, in

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Children's Hospitals, at Broadmoor, yet he died with his reputation

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intact. On Newsnight tonight, why did the

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institutions that could have stopped him, failed to do so.

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In the studio, people who know the working of the BBC, the tabloids

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and children's charities. There is news tonight that seven Royal

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Marines have been arrested on suspicion of murder in Afghanistan.

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We will be here with the latest. They killed an insurgent on the

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battlefield, but the military police now believe they should face

:00:49.:00:59.
:00:59.:01:02.

trial for it. Also tonight: It is a very simple question. What did you

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say. The question that dogs Andrew Sir James Wilson Vincent Savile, BE,

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KCSG. The first presenter of Top Of The Pops. For 20 years, the man who

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made children's dreams come true on Jim'll Fix It. A man believed to

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have raise personally raised �30- �40 million for charity. He was

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described as one of the most established showbiz figures and

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leading charity worker, when he died. The obituary in the Times saw

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him as an he can tent trick contributor to British life. He

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could never be pigeonholed, and some said he could be a saint. And

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an expression of sorrow from the Prince of Wales and others. No-one

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is saying that now. The flood of allegations about

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Jimmy Savile's behaviour is now engulfing some of the many

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institutions he was involved in. The NHS, the care system, and, of

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course, the BBC, including Newsnight. 13 police forces are now

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investigating multiple claims of the sexual abuse of children and

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teenager. Why weren't the victims given greater protection?

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At Stoke Mandeville hospital in Buckinghamshire, Jimmy Savile

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roamed at will. He was given a room, and welcomed as a celebrity

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fundraiser. Sprinkling Stardust and targeting young patients. I was

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quite taken that we had a popstar patient. Caroline was 13 at the

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time and being treated for spinal injuries. He bent down and he

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rammed, that was the only way I can describe it, he rammed his tongue

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right down my throat. I told my mum and dad, and I told people that I

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came into contact with. But, nothing. I don't even think my

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parents took it seriously. Because I was a 13-year-old girl. He was

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who he was. Or who he was suppose to have been. I don't think they

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necessarily believed, they never took it seriously. Jimmy Savile

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volunteered as a night porter at Leeds General Infirmary, sickness

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and disability were no protection for the patients he abused.

:03:55.:04:05.
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started kissing her neck. Running his hands up and down her arms, and

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then started to molest her. When the nurse eventually came in,

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because I was hourly observation, I mentioned Jimmy Savile, pointed

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over to where he was. And I said, if he comes anywhere near me, I'll

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scream the place down, and yes I would have done. It's emerged that

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some nursing staff at stoke Mandeville, were aware of the

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Savile prob -- Stoke Mandeville, were aware of the Savile problem.

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The nurses weren't happy, they weren't at all enthused about his

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impending arrival. But there was an air of res in this case, something

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they had to put -- resignation, something they had to put up with.

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There was ironic chatter between them about who would be the lucky

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one to go off with him to his room. And one of them lent over my bed,

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and said the best thing you can do is stay in bed and pretend to be

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asleep. The two hospital trusts are helping the police establish how

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those in their care were let down. They are not alone. The care system

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designed to protect some of society's most disadvantaged young

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people is accused, once again, of failing them. Duncroft school in

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Surrey, is now a block of smart flats. As an approved school in the

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70s, it housed troubled and very bright teenage girls. Again, Jimmy

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Savile was welcomed in by staff. represented, in a way, this idea

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that he was going to be our saviour. In fact, it was completely the

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antithesis, because what he did was abuse us. The girls were just

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saying that he never stopped eying up their tits, and how he lined

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everybody up to kiss them all goodbye. And he stuck his tongue in

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their mouths and he touched their breasts. And this was common

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knowledge about him. This was the sort of thing that you knew about

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him. It wasn't accepted, it was "oh Jimmy Savile's coming". You knew,

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but you didn't have any power to do anything about it, he still rep

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presented this idea that he was going to -- represented the idea he

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was going to give you some hope. Savile would sweep up in his Rolls-

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Royce, dolling out cigarettes, and offers -- doling out cigarettes and

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offers to watch his shows being produced. There is nothing in the

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least unusual about the fact that these victims are coming forward

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now. But there were complaints about

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Savile at Duncroft. And in 2007, Surrey Police began investigating.

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A file was sent to the Crown Prosecution Service, only for the

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investigation to be dropped through lack of evidence. The now notorious

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children's home, Haut de la Garenne, in jersey, was also visited by

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Savile, resulting in further accusation. It wasn't just Surrey

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Police that investigated Savile, a total of five forces received

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complaints while he was still alive. So why was he never held to

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account? This former officer from Thames Valley Police was told by a

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nurse at Stoke Mandeville that Savile was abusing patients. He

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took the matter to his superiors, but was rebuffed. I was not

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believed. No. I think purely because at that stage, and for many,

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many years, of course, Savile was an icon. When rumours attach

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themselves to public figures, the media are often the first to get

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wind of it. It has become clear that happened in this case, and yet

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newspapers and broadcasters didn't run with the story. Why not?

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Several former BBC staff have come out to say they were aware of

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Savile's predatory behaviour, in the 1970s and 1980s. The BBC has

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announced they will hold an independent inquiry, into who knew

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what about their fallen star, once the police give the green light.

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More recent decisions are also under scrutiny. After Savile died,

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I was part of a Newsnight team that investigated claims of sexual abuse.

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The allegations centered on Duncroft School in Surrey, but they

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included Stoke Mandeville hospital, and Television Centre. Newsnight

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decided not to run the story for editoral reasons. The BBC is under

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pressure to explain why the story was not broadcast. And whether any

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influence was brought to bear by senior executives, ahead of the

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Christmas tribute programmes for Savile. Once senior executives at

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the BBC knew that there was an investigation into Jimmy Savile,

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and they could see their Christmas schedules, and they could see

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celebratory programmes about Jimmy Savile, it is absolutely the first

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thing you do is, can I see the item, before I do anything else.

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January, newspapers knew about the Newsnight investigation. But most

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only took an interest after the ITV documentary into Savile, screened

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last week. This scandal began with one man, but it doesn't end there.

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Some of the country's most powerful institutions are having to ask

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themselves searching and uncomfortable questions.

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With me, John Brown of the NSPCC, Paul Conew who has worked in senior

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politicians on papers, Vanessa Feltz, and Kevin Mash. I want to

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ask you Kevin, the BBC declined to appear in this discussion. As a

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former editor, you can help us understand how the BBC's decision-

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making process works. First of all, the suspicion that Newsnight

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dropped its investigation because of pressure from other bits of the

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BBC. Also, the bewilderment in many parts that Newsnight didn't go

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ahead with broadcasting allegations, which, when they turned up on ITV,

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have had the devastating effect we know about? They are two separate

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questions. I find it inconceivable that the

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editor of the programme was pressured by anyone more senior in

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the BBC not to run the Newsnight investigation. It isn't how the BBC

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works. The chairman has denied it, the DG has denied it and the editor

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of the programme has denied it. I see no reason not to believe those

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denials. I have never had any of that kind of pressure on me as 20

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years as an editor in the BBC, to run or not run a story. There is

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something cucid about BBC editors that if a boss tried to pressure

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them, they would make sure it would get on air. The BBC is not that

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sort of organisation, it is hard to understand it from the outside.

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What about the point f you had Jimmy Savile, with a big Christmas

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tribute coming up, and a boss saying, I'm not sure about the

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investigation? It is not how the BBC works, you can get theological

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about it, dance on the head of the pin, and who knew what, did the DG

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know, head of television know. Did someone pick up the phone and come

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around to the editor of this programme's office and say, pull

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the plug on that investigation, I don't believe that happened. What

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about the question of editoral judgment, about Newsnight not going

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ahead with something that ITV eventually did? That is not quite

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right. Some of the evidence overlaps. Some of the evidence was

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different. I have no special knowledge of it. I know how the

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editing process goes on a programme like Newsnight. Clearly the initial

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investigation was focused in a very narrow area, it was about whether

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Surrey Police had acted properly that is the kind of journalism that

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the BBC is there to do, actually. To hold institutions to account, to

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find, including theself, incidently, which I believe we are doing

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tonight. To hold institutions to account, and to see if there is any

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evidence that those institutions haven't act properly. That was the

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focus of the investigation. Yes it is true, there were other issues

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around that shregs, but that was the focus -- that investigation,

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but that was the focus. When the editor of the programme judged that

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there was a reason for Surrey Police dropping the investigation,

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that was in his view, adequate. He decided he didn't have, as I

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understand it, sufficient evidence to run a piece on the own,

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levelling allegation at Jimmy Savile. We are talking, obviously,

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about Newsnight investigations, and other investigations, after Jimmy

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Savile's death. The tabloids, over all the time that Jimmy Savile was

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a huge star, did they have a whiff of any of this, why didn't they do

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more? Yes, they did. I did back in 1994, in the Sunday Mirror, we had,

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we met two former Duncroft girls, separately one came to us through a

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an intermediary, she managed to help us track down another girl.

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Both of them alleged they had been assaulted by Jimmy Savile. We

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actually checked them out, we interviewed them separately, even

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put trick questions to contradict them, their story of compelling and

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convincing. The problem was, that they were terrified of Savile, they

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didn't think they would be believed. They thought it would be the

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catalyst, rather than going into a witness box. In the end they were

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afraid to go into the witness box. To swear affadavits. There was,

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much to my frustration, I had to bow to the legal advice that this

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would be suicidal in terms it of reputation and libel damages.

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though, it has been the life blood of tabloid newspapers, particularly

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Sunday's, down the decade, to expose the private lives of

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celebrities. That is what told papers. The News of the World did

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great work exposing paedophile, but Jimmy Savile, despite a lot of

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newspaper people knowing the allegations, got aand we way with

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it? There were whisper -- who got away with it? There were whispers,

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I heard them in America back in the 1980s. The occasion in the 1990s

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was the only occasion I had had two people sitting down and talking

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about their experiences with him, when they were 14 and 15. At this

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:15:07.:15:07.

stage they were well into their 30s. The dunceen to connection raises

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the own prob -- Duncroft connection raises questions, they were bright

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girls with troubled background. They were saying, who will believe

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us. Because, you know, he's friends with the Queen, Princess Diana, in

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fact, Prince Charles. John Brown of the NSPCC, troubled girls, hard to

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believe? Absolutely, what we have heard so far about Jimmy Savile is

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not surprise. It is very typical of sex offender behaviour. Preying on

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and targeting young, vulnerable girls, maybe who have already

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experienced problems. Maybe who have already been sexual low abused.

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That is not untypical. Sexual abuse of children, primarily, is about

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the abuse of power, coupled with a sexual interest in children. When

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someone's in a particularly powerful situation and position,

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it's very easy for them to silence their victims and keep their

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victims quiet. What about the police, I should say, someone from

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the Association of Chief police officers was going to join us

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tonight, but had to pull out at the last minute. Would the police have

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had the same trouble, if they were coming across statements from

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"troubled" girls. The threshold for gaining a conviction in this

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country is high, of course, it is based on reasonable doubt, you need

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a clear and consistent statement from a victim of child abuse. That

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can be incredibly difficult when you think about the dynamics of

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child sexual abuse, where the only witnesses to the coim are the

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victim themselves and the -- crime are the victims themselves and the

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abuser, where the abuser has told the victim that if they say

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anything nobody will believe them. They may be taken into care, their

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family may be split up. That is terrifying for a child to

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comprehend. The easiest thing for a child to do keep silent. Even when

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they are approached by another person in a position of authority,

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having been told they won't be believed. I would reinforce that,

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earlier in the News of the World we did a carefully legaled story about

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Gary glit, which effectively said he was -- Gary glitter, which

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expectively said he was involved with a 13-year-old girl. We passed

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the information to the police, over and above the story we were able to

:17:25.:17:35.
:17:35.:17:37.

publish, pretty strong any way. The police got nowhere with it. Eight

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years later we know what happened to Gary Glitter and the girl and

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the case against him. How much did Jimmy Savile's celebrity play in

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his getting away with it? His fame was incalculable it was so

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venerated, he was venerated, he was a living saint, raising �40 million

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for associated charities. Even then there was more Niamhity about it

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than there is now the public adored him. They felt that you had to pass

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an examination in goodness to be on the television. If you are on the

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television you have to be an especially nice person, you there

:18:16.:18:22.

with that lovely Trevor McDonald and Michael Parkinsons, and they

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must be all nice people. If you met a butcher or social worker or

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librarian, and they said would you like me to give your 12-year-old

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daughter a lift home and take them home for lunch, you would say, no.

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But if it was someone on the television, known to be beatified

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in his own lifetime, would you say, yes please, thank you very much.

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have to conclude that in Jimmy Savile's charity work, it was, in

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many senses, his calm playing jacket to cover the dark --

:18:55.:19:01.

camouflage jacket to cover the darker side of him. It is not

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untypical. We have to wait until the investigation under way is

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concluded to gain as full a picture as we to this case. We know abusers

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will go to great lengths to target, groom and abuse children. What a

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better way, to set up a charity, working with children, and having

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access to children, and able to be alone with them and abuse them.

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What about the duty of care, we are talking about the various

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institutions, the BBC, the hospitals and charities too. The

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duty of care that all of those institutions had to the young

:19:36.:19:44.

people, who, it turns out, were abused? It appears to be an

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appalling combination of deriliction of duty, even being be

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dazzled by fame, overawed by the amount of money he was raising

:19:53.:19:57.

Oregan rating by a tremenduously attraction in the audience to keep

:19:57.:20:03.

huge figures and a combination of all those things. One consolation I

:20:03.:20:07.

had, small now though it is, because I feel a sense of guilt and

:20:07.:20:17.

frustration. Do you? Yes, I do. A few years later, my PR man is a

:20:17.:20:22.

working with a well known charity, and working with lots of well-

:20:22.:20:25.

meaning celebrities. A corporate sponsor asked to involve Jimmy

:20:25.:20:28.

Savile to the charity, I privately pointed out what I knew and why we

:20:28.:20:37.

wouldn't be touching him with the proverbial barge pole. We have

:20:37.:20:42.

heard a lot about it being the 70s and a different era. You wonder if

:20:42.:20:44.

there was a modern Jimmy Savile out there, would it be any more

:20:44.:20:49.

difficult for him to operate? don't think we can possibly know.

:20:49.:20:53.

The allegations that we are hearing now, the suffering that these women

:20:53.:20:57.

are telling us about is horrific. It really is horrific. But we do

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have to think what we knew at the time. What the hard evidence of,

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for any of the institutions involved, to act upon, and for all

:21:03.:21:08.

sorts of reasons, some of which are quite reprehensible, taking the

:21:08.:21:13.

testimony of vulnerable young women, seriously, totally reprehensible.

:21:14.:21:18.

But an institution can only act on hard evidence, not rumour alone.

:21:18.:21:22.

Although we were all aware of rumour, I was aware of some of the

:21:22.:21:25.

rumours around Jimmy Savile. I hear the rumours from my friend in the

:21:25.:21:30.

tabloid press, rather than people in the BBC. With the popular press,

:21:31.:21:36.

I do hope Lord Justice Leveson is watching the unfolding saga, this

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is the flip side of the Leveson Inquiry, I would like to see

:21:40.:21:45.

Leveson, as the Mail staid this morning, I don't always agree --

:21:45.:21:50.

stated this morning, I don't always agree with this, but for Leveson to

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look at this would be a strong case. The point about the tabloid press

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and Leveson, while the press was abled to act in an unfettered way,

:22:00.:22:05.

it lauded Savile and built him up into the figure that made him up

:22:05.:22:10.

there. I'm puzzled by the way that why Newsnight didn't carry it. I

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don't know the reasons for that. I'm sure the women who took part in

:22:15.:22:21.

the Newsnight inquiry, then of course with ITV, must be asking

:22:21.:22:24.

themselves why. Is this still part of the legacy of Savile's power.

:22:24.:22:31.

You can understand how they feel there. But I also feel that we have

:22:31.:22:37.

a situation here, if Levein is too severe in his recommendation, it

:22:37.:22:43.

would make it harder for the press to act. I was trying to find this

:22:43.:22:47.

morning, any evidence that the tabloids were even nodding and

:22:47.:22:50.

winking towards this story over the ten years previous to Savile's

:22:50.:22:54.

death. I could find nothing whatsoever. Quite the opposite,

:22:54.:22:59.

actually, I was seeing this guy being built up by the tabloid press,

:22:59.:23:04.

into the kind of hero figure that made him as untouchable as he was.

:23:04.:23:08.

Finally, want your thoughts on whether thinking about whether

:23:08.:23:12.

Savile could happen again now. Is the legislation appropriate, do we

:23:12.:23:16.

need to look at that again? I say this with a degree of caution. We

:23:16.:23:20.

are in different times now. There has been a whole welter of

:23:20.:23:25.

legislation in the last 40 years, we have had the charge act of 1989.

:23:25.:23:31.

We have had Sir William Puttings report of child protection into res

:23:31.:23:34.

relation children's homes, we have the UN Convention on The rights of

:23:34.:23:39.

a child. The list goes on. We are in different times, public

:23:39.:23:43.

understanding in terms of child abuse, and what makes paedophiles

:23:43.:23:50.

and child abusers operate and the modus operandi. Could it happen

:23:50.:23:54.

again?, yes, because fundamentally the basics about child abuse, the

:23:54.:23:59.

abuse of power, sexuality fundamentals about children are

:23:59.:24:04.

still there, we need on our guard, and encourage children and adults

:24:04.:24:08.

when we have concerns to voice them. Social networking might help too.

:24:08.:24:12.

Thank you all. The Ministry of Defence has confirmed that seven

:24:13.:24:20.

Royal Marines have been arrested on suspicion of murder in Afghanistan.

:24:20.:24:24.

This news has emerged in the last couple of hours. What sort of

:24:24.:24:27.

detail do we have? Very scant. It has only come out less than two

:24:28.:24:33.

hours ago. The MoD has not said where it happened. Or exact low who

:24:33.:24:36.

was involved. We know it happened last -- exactly who was involved.

:24:36.:24:41.

We know it happened last year, there were two major Royal Marine

:24:41.:24:46.

units in Afghanistan at the time 42 Command, and the Special Boat

:24:46.:24:48.

Service, conducting special operations there. It could be one

:24:48.:24:53.

of those two units. They did, however, say, that this is really

:24:53.:24:57.

around the issue of rules of engagment. It may well be that the

:24:57.:25:01.

soldiers did not follow the right procedure, for want of a better

:25:01.:25:04.

word. The MoD said no civilians were involved in the incident. It

:25:04.:25:08.

seems to suggest that these soldiers killed, an insurgent,

:25:08.:25:12.

that's their word, and perhaps they didn't follow the proper rules of

:25:12.:25:15.

engagment. That is due to positively identifying that the

:25:15.:25:20.

person is armed and a threat to you, before opening fire. It may also be

:25:20.:25:23.

something to do with what happened once that person had been captured.

:25:23.:25:28.

We also want to ask you tonight about the seemingly ever increasing

:25:28.:25:33.

tensions between Turkey and Syria? Of course this has always gone up

:25:33.:25:36.

another ratchet because what was happening this time last night.

:25:36.:25:42.

That was an incident involving a Syrian Airbus.

:25:43.:25:49.

The Syrian air flight from Moscow to Damascus, was intercepted last

:25:49.:25:58.

night. Turkish F-16 fighters buzzed the aircraft and ordered it to land

:25:58.:26:06.

to Ankara, the Turkish Government said it was carrying arms.

:26:06.:26:14.

TRANSLATION: This is equipment and munitions sent to the Syrian

:26:14.:26:18.

defence agency by the Russian Government. Syria and Russia have

:26:18.:26:22.

denied the arms smuggling accusation.

:26:22.:26:27.

TRANSLATION: What happened could be described aspirecy, Turkish

:26:27.:26:32.

areopiracy against the civilian Syrian claim on the regular flight

:26:32.:26:36.

to Damascus. Can Turkish troops operating in strength on -- with

:26:36.:26:39.

Turkish troops operating in strength on the border, and

:26:39.:26:42.

authorisation from their parliament to enter Syria. The scene is set

:26:42.:26:46.

for further confrontation. It has brought opposition criticism of the

:26:46.:26:50.

Turkish Government. Now that the Syrian civil war has been dragging

:26:50.:26:56.

on, Turkey finds theself in a very difficult position, unable to

:26:56.:27:04.

influence events in the country. It has also increasingly lost their

:27:04.:27:10.

close ties they enjoyed with the countries in the region, Iraq,

:27:10.:27:16.

China, Iran. Last night's incident adds to the recent shelling along

:27:16.:27:20.

the Turkish-Syrian border, as tensions worsen between the two

:27:20.:27:24.

nations. Polls show many Turk are worried about the Government siding

:27:24.:27:28.

with the Syrian opposition. For those living in the frontier zone,

:27:29.:27:33.

the upsurge in military action has been unwelcome.

:27:33.:27:36.

TRANSLATION: Three days ago, we were working, we were harvesting

:27:36.:27:40.

cotton, a bomb fell here. We all ran. Now fighting continues in

:27:40.:27:43.

these village, it doesn't stop. Bombs are always falling, but we

:27:44.:27:50.

have to stay here for work. Every day, every hour, there is

:27:50.:27:56.

fighting, no-one knows what to do. Listen to that, you can hear the

:27:56.:28:05.

fighting from here. With refugees still escape the ing -- escaping

:28:05.:28:09.

the war by crossing into their country, Turkey can't remain

:28:09.:28:16.

uninvolved. It is hoping to escalate the role to speed the

:28:17.:28:20.

toppling of President Assad. Do we know what was on the plane? Apart

:28:20.:28:26.

from 35 passengers, it would seem, so far, simply normal cargo and

:28:26.:28:30.

luggage. The Turk have had 24 hours to produce evidence for the claims.

:28:30.:28:33.

There have been vague hints about communications equipment or

:28:33.:28:36.

ammunition, nothing has been produced. The longer it goes on,

:28:36.:28:39.

the more the suspicion will be that this was either faulty intelligence

:28:39.:28:44.

that lay behind this, or the desire to provoke some kind of incident.

:28:44.:28:49.

Either way it doesn't set a particularly good tone at the

:28:49.:28:52.

moment when tensions are so high between the two countries, and the

:28:52.:28:57.

risk of further open hostilities between the Syrian and Turkish

:28:57.:29:01.

armed force seem to be very severe. As you know, Syria has been kornd

:29:01.:29:06.

concerned for some time. For months the Republican former presidential

:29:06.:29:11.

candidate, John McCain, has been urging President Obama to arm the

:29:11.:29:15.

rebels in Syria. It doesn't seem the President is listening, but

:29:15.:29:20.

neither is Mitt Romney. First we talk about the diverted Syrian

:29:20.:29:24.

plane. I think it is a symptom of the increasing tensions throughout

:29:24.:29:29.

the region, particularly Turkey and Syria. They have exchanged

:29:29.:29:34.

artillery fire, as you know. Erdogan, the Prime Minister, has

:29:34.:29:39.

gone from a close relationship with Bashar al-Assad, to one of outside

:29:39.:29:47.

empty. There was, already, as you eluded to, trouble on the border,

:29:47.:29:51.

skirmishes, big wars can start from small skirmishes? One of the things

:29:51.:29:56.

from the beginning I was very concerned about, that we have now

:29:56.:30:00.

got Jordan flooded again with refugees, hundreds of thousands,

:30:00.:30:08.

last check was 150,000. There is a million-and-a-half refugees in

:30:08.:30:12.

Syria, several hundred thousand in Turkey, and Lebanon is feeling the

:30:12.:30:18.

strains of it as well. There could be an outbreak either in Lebanon or

:30:18.:30:23.

the Turkish border very easily. could that be stopped? I'm not sure

:30:23.:30:27.

how it could be stopped. I know how it could be prevented from starting.

:30:27.:30:34.

That is, a long time ago we should have supplied arms and equipment to

:30:34.:30:38.

the Syrians resisting Bashar al- Assad. What do you understand, Mitt

:30:38.:30:42.

Romney's position, on the arming the opposition to be?

:30:42.:30:49.

understanding of his position is he wants a ply of arms, into -- a

:30:49.:30:54.

supply of arms into those resisting. Whether he's not reached the point

:30:54.:31:02.

where it is direct supply of American arms. Facilitating arms

:31:02.:31:07.

into Syria. I would like to see him say more. I hope maybe I can

:31:07.:31:12.

convince him over time. He's your man, he's on the rise after that

:31:12.:31:19.

debate, you are fundraising for him tonight in London. Why, when you

:31:19.:31:24.

talk to him, why isn't he persuaded about your point of view? I think

:31:24.:31:28.

he's persuaded by the point of view that they need arms to have a fair

:31:28.:31:32.

fight. You have the Iranians on the ground bringing weapons, the

:31:32.:31:36.

Russians bringing weapons in. I don't think he's quite ready to go

:31:36.:31:40.

the next step. Are you saying he would find it impossible to be

:31:40.:31:43.

elected f he explained to the American people, if his view before

:31:43.:31:46.

the election of that America needed to arm the opposition? I don't

:31:46.:31:51.

think in this environment that it would be very easy for him to

:31:51.:31:57.

explain to the American people. Obviously, there would be the

:31:57.:32:01.

counter-attack, that he's unqualified, inexperienced, all of

:32:01.:32:04.

those things. In part of his public statements on this, he says he

:32:04.:32:08.

wants to work with partners to identify and organise those members

:32:08.:32:14.

of the opposition who share our values? How on earth do you idea

:32:14.:32:22.

foi them? It is very difficult. Because, as I say, now 17, 18

:32:22.:32:29.

months later, we have seen this inflow of Jihadists, we always fish

:32:29.:32:35.

in troubled waters. That is the nature of Al-Qaeda, it argues, in

:32:35.:32:39.

my view, for us to have taken action earlier and more vigorously.

:32:39.:32:43.

Turning to the vice-presidential debate tonight, what are your

:32:43.:32:46.

thoughts? I think it will be very interesting, you have two different

:32:46.:32:50.

personalities here. If there was ever a clash in personalities, it

:32:50.:32:53.

certainly is there. Obviously as a Republican I

:32:53.:33:03.

anticipate that Paul R -- Ryan, he will do well, he uns the issue, and

:33:03.:33:09.

how well will he do it. The danger he has is saying something that

:33:09.:33:13.

Americans would be asking what he are talk about. I don't think he

:33:13.:33:19.

will do that, he's well rehearsed. A lot of the criticism from

:33:19.:33:22.

democrats about the President's performance is less about the

:33:22.:33:26.

detail, and more on the fact that he didn't appear to be in the room.

:33:26.:33:30.

He didn't appear to want to be there. Do you reflect if you had

:33:30.:33:36.

had been debating that guy, things might have been different? In 2008,

:33:36.:33:41.

the President did very well in the debates against me. Maybe that is a

:33:41.:33:46.

commentary on my all lents. As, the President didn't have a record to

:33:46.:33:52.

defend at that time. It was hope and change, now it is despair and

:33:52.:33:59.

danger. That is a pretty good line. I think the President has had

:33:59.:34:03.

difficulty in defending his record. One of the seminal moment was when

:34:04.:34:08.

the moderator said, what about working together, and Romney talked

:34:08.:34:10.

about being Governor of Massachusetts, working with

:34:10.:34:15.

Democrats, what did the President say? He said sometimes you have to

:34:15.:34:20.

say no to people. If there's one thing the American people want, and

:34:20.:34:28.

I'm stopped in the street by people, say work together and avert this

:34:28.:34:32.

physical cliff. That was one of the moments in the debate.

:34:32.:34:36.

Thank you. It's good to be back with you.

:34:36.:34:39.

Andrew Mitchell is still in his job as the Conservative Party's Chief

:34:39.:34:44.

Whip, responsible for maintaining party discipline. He survived

:34:44.:34:47.

coverage of his Downing Street encounter with police. He survived

:34:47.:34:50.

the slings and arrows of the party conference, though he judged it

:34:50.:34:56.

best not to turn up for his own. Could he still be on his way out.

:34:56.:35:04.

Tomorrow's Telegraph is demanding he should go. It is the kind of

:35:04.:35:09.

prime time exposure any politician would die for. We don't know if the

:35:09.:35:12.

Chief Whip watched BBC One on Friday night. If he did, he

:35:12.:35:17.

probably wasn't laughing. Victoria asked me if I could give her any

:35:17.:35:23.

tips, said, of course I can Moy dear. Now, look, if the BBC

:35:23.:35:27.

security man asks you to get off your bike and come in through the

:35:27.:35:31.

side gate. Whatever you do, don't call him a pleb.

:35:31.:35:37.

Now, in this long-running series, it could soon be crunch time for

:35:37.:35:41.

Andrew Mitchell. He has the dance floor to himself, and three members

:35:41.:35:47.

of the Police Federation in the judges' chairs. Mr Mitchell will

:35:48.:35:51.

sit down with those police representatives here at his local

:35:51.:35:56.

constituency office n what is called a "clear the air" meeting.

:35:56.:35:59.

Get this one right and he might be ablable to draw a line under the

:35:59.:36:04.

affair. Use his rag now, and his political future might not look too

:36:04.:36:08.

healthy. This is the row that refuses to die down, it all started

:36:08.:36:13.

three week ago, when a clearly angry Chief Whip, let loose at

:36:13.:36:17.

policemaning the Downing Street security gates, as he left on his

:36:17.:36:25.

bicycle. The official police log claims he uses the world BEEP plebs.

:36:25.:36:31.

It was the end of a long and extremely frustrating day, not that

:36:31.:36:34.

is an excuse for what happened. I didn't show the police the amount

:36:34.:36:40.

of respect I should have done. We should all respect them, they do an

:36:40.:36:43.

incredibly difficult job. I have apologised to the Police and the

:36:43.:36:47.

police officer involved on the gate. He has accepted my apology. And I

:36:47.:36:52.

hope very much we can draw a line under it there.

:36:52.:36:55.

Not much chance of that. He was forced to stay away from his own

:36:55.:37:00.

party conference last week. Local police, though, did turn up,

:37:00.:37:04.

wearing pleb-themed T-shirts. Despite the policemen involved

:37:04.:37:09.

accepting his apology. Many other young rank and file officers remain

:37:09.:37:13.

upset. Their anger now seems to be shifting, away from any words he

:37:13.:37:19.

might have used, to a Mo tensionly more damaging allegation -- a

:37:19.:37:24.

potentially more damaging allegation. And he seems to be

:37:24.:37:29.

protecting those lying. This is one of the lead judges? It is a simple

:37:29.:37:33.

question, what did you say, and that is what we want to know. If he

:37:33.:37:38.

did say the words he can apologise again, the offices have accepted

:37:38.:37:41.

the apology any way. That is not where we are at now. We are not

:37:41.:37:47.

really that bothered about the words. The issue is honesty and

:37:47.:37:50.

integrity, and who is telling the truth here. The Conservative Party,

:37:50.:37:54.

meanwhile, will be hoping the public will start to get tired of

:37:54.:37:58.

the row. When member of the Government told Newsnight, that out

:37:58.:38:02.

of his 80,000 constituency, he has received one e-mail about it. The

:38:02.:38:06.

public aren't interested. He has apologised, it has been accepted,

:38:06.:38:11.

it is time to move on. Even the police admit there is another

:38:12.:38:16.

agenda here though. Any criticism of Mr Mitchell feeds into wider

:38:16.:38:21.

anger about cuts to police budgets. Cuts many officers feel are unfair.

:38:21.:38:24.

This thing would have blown over if he had answered all the questions

:38:24.:38:28.

in the first place. That is what would have happened. You know. But,

:38:28.:38:32.

again, I would bring it back to the fact that the attitude of Mr

:38:32.:38:36.

Mitchell, may be reflective of the general attitude of the

:38:36.:38:40.

Conservative Party towards police and police officers. Mr Mitchell's

:38:40.:38:45.

position, does now seem to be under serious pressure. Several Tory MPs

:38:45.:38:49.

are said to have written to the chairman of the backbench 1922

:38:49.:38:54.

Committee, asking why he's still in a job. Like Strictly, it is not

:38:54.:39:03.

just the judges' vote that counts, it is the public's vote too. Are

:39:03.:39:07.

the police right to pursue it? is water under the bridge, they

:39:08.:39:12.

should let it go. I think this one is not a big issue what he is

:39:12.:39:16.

supposed to have called them. would you like to be called a pleb?

:39:16.:39:21.

Sfrpblgt I would brush it off. I could be called a lot worse. As a

:39:21.:39:25.

position of power in the police, it is disrespectful, and soen. They

:39:25.:39:30.

have a right to pursue it if their case is valid. If I'm asked whether

:39:30.:39:33.

or not he can survive, I think he can.

:39:33.:39:37.

I doubt if the police will come out and say, suddenly, they are

:39:37.:39:40.

complete lie satisfied with the situation. They will clearly have

:39:40.:39:46.

an attempt to keep it all going. At the end of the day, I think he he

:39:46.:39:49.

can survive, it is a clearly a difficult situation for him. It

:39:50.:39:52.

could all come down to one performance for Mr Mitchell

:39:52.:39:57.

tomorrow. A poor showing and he might have a lot more time on his

:39:57.:40:05.

hands, for Friday night TV? And old Brucie's gags.

:40:05.:40:09.

Ever since Barack Obama became the first black President of the US.

:40:09.:40:12.

People have discussed what affect his election would have on black

:40:12.:40:17.

people in America. As he fights for a second term, we decided there is

:40:17.:40:21.

no better person to hear about from a man who is the Poet Laureate of

:40:21.:40:29.

the ghetto, soul singer, Bobby Womack.

:40:29.:40:33.

Most people go down, I'm going up. It is just taking the guitar, and

:40:33.:40:39.

turning it upside down, and making all the chords backwards. Does

:40:39.:40:44.

anyone else do that, that you know of? No to.

:40:44.:40:49.

# Stop and take # A real good listen

:40:49.:40:54.

Bobby Womack has been singing and writing songs since he pinched his

:40:54.:41:00.

dad's guitar and taught himself to play.

:41:00.:41:09.

As unorthodox in his way, as one- time band mate, Jimi Hendrix.

:41:09.:41:14.

Jimmy just was different. Than anybody, when I say R & B, they had

:41:14.:41:20.

never seen a Jimi Hendrix. To them, for a I go that would be playing

:41:20.:41:27.

and then take -- a guy that would be playing and then take it off and

:41:27.:41:32.

light it guitar. He had had to put it out real quick because it look

:41:32.:41:39.

like a piece of burnt barbecue. They are all great, and a lot late.

:41:39.:41:42.

Womack is the survivor who has outlived most of the stars he has

:41:42.:41:52.
:41:52.:41:55.

written for or played with. Most, though not all.

:41:56.:42:00.

Womack was persuaded by his friend Sam Cooke, to let the Rolling

:42:00.:42:03.

Stones cover this song .Le # I used to love her

:42:03.:42:11.

# Well it's all over now. He said one day you will be part of

:42:11.:42:16.

history. Group is going to be huge. I said why don't they get their own

:42:16.:42:20.

songs. We became friends. played with them, didn't you. You

:42:20.:42:25.

toured with him? Two or three tour. Everyone has a bit of a down on

:42:25.:42:29.

banks at the moment. I was reading in your book, that you used to keep

:42:29.:42:32.

your money in your shoe. Do you think we were better off when we

:42:32.:42:40.

kept our money in our shoes? If you had as small an amount as I stkp,

:42:40.:42:46.

unless you were you were -- z unless you were a huge shoe. I went

:42:46.:42:49.

to Wilson Pickett's house, and he said, look in the closet, it was

:42:49.:42:54.

stacked to money all up to the top. I have never seen that amount of

:42:54.:42:58.

money. I said man, are you crazy, why not put it in the bank and you

:42:58.:43:06.

can draw off the interest. He said, no, I can't go asleep and then

:43:06.:43:10.

somebody steal my money. He was serious about that. I thought I

:43:10.:43:17.

wouldn't put mine in the bank either.

:43:17.:43:26.

When you count the Presidents we had before Obama showed up. It was

:43:26.:43:31.

telling me. 50 years ago, he said bobby we have a black President I

:43:31.:43:41.

want to see that. I knew he was drinking gin, I said, he said he

:43:41.:43:43.

was serious. What do you think of Obama? Trying

:43:44.:43:48.

to clean up the mess he has stepped into, he has done all he could do.

:43:48.:43:54.

You have to understand politic is politic. You know. He has to take

:43:54.:44:00.

care, each situation is a bad day. People think, four years to change

:44:00.:44:08.

it all right away. It takes four years to mess it up.

:44:08.:44:14.

Quentin Tarantino, borrowed the tune, Across 110th Street for the

:44:14.:44:18.

movie Jackie Brown, it was originally written about life in

:44:18.:44:24.

Harlem and New York. We don't hear about the ghetto at the moment for

:44:24.:44:28.

some reason, has it got better? is still the ghetto, nobody focus

:44:28.:44:32.

on it. I'm talking about Presidents, withstand FA bee President, talking

:44:32.:44:40.

about the middle class -- wannabe President talking about the middle-

:44:40.:44:45.

class. They never mentioned the poor people. They don't care. Even

:44:45.:44:51.

if they all came together, they have to take care of them.

:44:51.:44:56.

Bobby Womack has a new record out, on a British label, featuring

:44:56.:45:06.
:45:06.:45:08.

rising star, Lana Del Rey. # Everything is everythingle

:45:08.:45:12.

The singer has been clean for more than 20 years. After brushes with

:45:12.:45:17.

drugs, booze, firearms, marriage break-up, and premature death, does

:45:17.:45:25.

he have any regrets. Sometimes I do regret. But I keep

:45:25.:45:33.

thinking if I wasn't high maybe my life wouldn't have lasted for the

:45:33.:45:37.

better. I think certain things I did, I shouldn't have got married,

:45:37.:45:42.

or, you know, as soon as I got married the woman started playing,

:45:42.:45:46.

not just with my head, but my head. When your heart says, let's stop

:45:46.:45:54.

here. You have no choice. Your heart or other organs?! # I'm not

:45:54.:46:04.
:46:04.:46:04.

just a President of loveful An absolute legend. Shall we put

:46:04.:46:14.
:46:14.:46:17.

the day out of the mystery, why the day out of the mystery, why

:46:18.:46:22.

not? Good night. There is a potential core of

:46:22.:46:24.

intense wet weather to continuing across north eastern Scotland, the

:46:24.:46:29.

warnings are in force, the intensity of the rain 80mms before

:46:29.:46:34.

the system clears through. A case of sunny spells and shattered

:46:34.:46:39.

showers. The brighter yellows and greens denoting heavier pulses.

:46:39.:46:43.

Cloudy skies generally in Scotland, once we get into the borders across

:46:43.:46:47.

England, prominently dry and sunny. Showers should be few and far

:46:47.:46:51.

between. We keep the showers clinging on to the south coast for

:46:51.:46:56.

a time. Highs of 13 degrees. It is a case of sunny spells and light

:46:56.:47:00.

showers. It won't be long before the showers waiting in the wings in

:47:00.:47:04.

the south west and South Wales during Friday evening.

:47:04.:47:07.

Enjoy the sunshine while I have you have it. A better day for the Isle

:47:08.:47:11.

How did Jimmy Savile get away with it?

Newsnight investigates the failure of some of the country's most treasured national institutions to prevent Jimmy Savile's abuses of children. With Eddie Mair.


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