12/10/2012 Newsnight

Tonight, the BBC on the rack. Two new inquiries announced, one into

the years Jimmy Savile worked at the BBC, another into any failings

over the abandoned Newsnight Savile investigation. And this from the

top of the corporation. A profound and heart felt apology, on behalf

of the BBC, to every victim. Police say there could be more than

40 victims, and more than 300 separate lions of inquiry. We will

explore whether the BBC has mishandedled the investigation, the

aftermath, and the need to get to the truth. We will hear from TV

executives, David Elstein and Airey air strikes and the Guardian

columnist, Deborah Orr. Also tonight: We are very proud to

receive the Nobel Prize. He may be very proud, but does award suggest

there is little point in satire, or does the long history of the

maligned institution help keep the peace on the most bloodthirsty

connent on earth. We will discuss, connent on earth. We will discuss,

Good evening, tonight the BBC has tried to get a grip on the

spiralling mass of allegations against Jimmy Savile. The new

director-general, Lord Entwistle, has ordered an investigation into

the culture and practices into the BBC when Savile worked here. A

separate investigation will look into any failings over the handling

of the abandoned Newsnight inquiry. It comes as the police reveal 700

lines of their inquiries, and put the potential number of victims of

Savile at 40. More claims of sexual assault by

Sir Jimmy Savile have emerged today. Police are investigating a dozen

allegations of abuse. And have revealed that there, at least, 40

potential victims. All told detectives are now following 340

leads. A director who worked on Jimmy Savile's hit TV show, Jim'll

Fix It, claimed to have discovered the presenter having sex with a

girl in his dressing room. David Nicolson told a newspaper he was

laughed at when he raised his concerns. June Thornton, a patient

at Leeds General Infirmary, in 1972, said she saw Savile abuse someone

she believed was a brain-damaged girl. Miss Thornton said she told a

nurse about the incident, but she was ignored.

The director-general announced an independent inquiry into a

Newsnight investigation about Jimmy Savile. That was begun last year,

but was never completed, and no report was shown. The editor of the

programme decided not to pursue it for editoral reasons. But some

members of the Newsnight team disagreed with his decision. After

the director-general referred to a "cloud of suspicion" over the

Newsnight investigation, he was asked whether the programme's

editor, Peter Rippon, should be suspended? No, I don't think it

would be appropriate to suspend the Newsnight editor. REPORTER: Why?

Because I have confidence in Peter Rippon. He's a very good editor

indeed. As I have explained to you. We have spent the last two weeks

trying to get people to understand and recognise our account of events.

Which I standby. What we are doing now, is we have set up an

independent inquiry, because, in the end, accountability,

transparency, honesty, these are things we want to live by, and be

judged by, we recognise that we need that to answer the questions

that are being asked. REPORTER: Are you confident that in that

Newsnight film, there was no material relevant useful to the

police that the BBC sat on by killing that film. There are

certainly journalists involved with that who indicate there was

relevant material, but Peter Rippon said otherwise in his statement?

These issues, Dan, are exactly I want the independent inquiry to

look at, I don't want to pre-judge it on anything you have asked me

there. REPORTER: Yesterday you did say you didn't know the nature of

the Newsnight allegations when the tribute programmes to Jimmy Savile

went ahead. Did you know it was an investigation into criminal

behaviour by Jimmy Savile, an investigation into potential child

abuse by Jimmy Savile, an investigation into action on BBC

Prom sis? What did you know? didn't know any of those things.

What I knew was Newsnight was looking at Jimmy Savile. That is as

much as I was told. I know there is a certain amount of mistcation in

the press about this -- mystification in the press about

this. I will explain what is in my mind. I'm a former news editor,

those investigating the BBC, the independence of the and current

affairs, the independence of the news division from any potential

influence from elsewhere in the organisation. The thing uppermost

in my mind was an absolute determination to ensure that nobody

should construe anything I had to say or think about this, as a

matter of any pressure. Helen said to me, we're looking into Jimmy

Savile. I said, thanks for letting me know, I hope you will keep me

updated. The BBC is also calling in an independent investigator, to

examine the culture at the corporation, during the time Savile

was committing his alleged attacks on children. Also to ensure that

present safeguards are fit for purpose. I have one thing to repeat,

that is a profound and heart felt apology on behalf of the BBC to

every victim. It is the victims, these women who were subject to

criminal actions, who must be central in our thoughts.

director-general said the two independent inquiries at the BBC

will be led by individuals, to be named as soon as possible, who

command respect for their insight and judgment.

No-one from the BBC was available to be interviewed tonight. I'm

joined now by David Elstein, who has held a number of executive

positions in television, including at Sky and Channel 5. Dawn Airey, a

former head of Channel 5, now heading the largest independent

European television company. Has the BBC botched this? It is not

unusual for the BBC to be slow off the mark when a crisis hits t and

to play catch-up for a long time afterwards. We have seen it many

times. The problem here is the BBC is trying to catch up day by day.

Yesterday it announced the Ken McQuarry inquiry, now it has been

overtaken by an external inquiry into what has happened. Although

George Entwistle has announced these two inquiries, the most

important one is the one he hasn't announced. That is why, when

Newsnight journalists had assembled, if not broadcast, substantial

evidence of sexual molestation by Jimmy Savile, why did the BBC

blythly proceed to broadcast a series of celebratory programme

about Savile, even as those interviews hit the cutting room

floor. Do you accept that, to some people, it looks as if the BBC has,

firstly, dragged the feet, and secondly, because of the supposedly

celebratory programmes, that there is something to hide there. As Mr

Entwistle put it, a cloud of suspicion over what Newsnight was

up to and what it did or didn't do? It is farcical to suggest that

because of the two entertainment programmes that the Newsnight piece

was sidelined or dropped. George, in your package at the beginning

gave a very good articulation that is to, yes, he was aware of the

fact that Newsnight was looking into Jimmy Savile, and that was it.

The independence of producers and editors of all News and Current

Affairs programmes have to remain absolutely paramount. The important

thing, I think which is what he has just announced, which is two very

significant forensic and soul- searching inquiries. That is all

the BBC can do. It will be interesting to see who is chairing

both the inquiries. But I think he has done exactly the right thing

for this moment in time. Where do you sit on this, I think everybody

has been shocked, day by day it gets worse. We heard Chris Patten

say it is a cesspit, and it certainly this? There is lots of

things happening, first of all we shouldn't lose sight of the fact

that until somebody broke this story, nobody had broken the story.

That is not just the BBC. That is a huge powerful media. We have a

press, that for a time, seemed able to get any information they liked

out of people. A press that was particularly down on paedophilia,

supposedly. Had many of them had a look at this? Nobody was able to

break this story, Newsnight, the BBC, at least had a go at it, they

may have failed at the final hurdle, it is important to be clear on why

that happened, but they at least had a go at it. It is a measure of

how successful this man was as a paedophile, who groomed an entire

nation, that nobody broke the story before now, at all. Specifically,

what do you want to know about the Newsnight investigation, and why it

was never run, why nothing actually got on it? Frankly, it is not

important. I don't think there is any conspiracy, I don't think there

was any pressure put on the editor. He probably took an editoral

judgment, he was probably wrong, we will eventually find out and make

our own judgment. That is not the issue. The issue is the BBC has

been landed with huge embarrassment, not just because it didn't

broadcast this item, but because it did broadcast a series of

programmes, which any alert executive would have yanked from

the schedule, as soon as they heard, Newsnight's investigating Jimmy

Savile. All the BBC News outlets were alerted, by the Newsnight team,

be abare that there is this investigation going on. I don't

understand the point that Dawn is making and that George Entwistle

made, which is you can't ask to see the tape, even if it hasn't been

broadcast. Of course you see the tape. As soon as you see the tape

you pull every one of those programmes out of the schedule.

me go back top Dawn and the wider investigation into the culture of

the BBC in the 1970s and 1980s, perhaps it is a reflection of the

culture of not just the BBC in that time, what was going on. What do

you hope they might get to the bottom of there? The 1970s and

1980s are a completely different world from where we are now. It is

comparing chalk and cheese, we have become far more moral and open and

transparent as a society, and witnessing what we are talking

about this evening. If you go back then, and David knows this as well

as I do, ITV was a bit like Life on Mars, it was racist, sexist, sexism

was endemic, and there were things that went on then, to be frank, you

wouldn't tolerate today. The world has moved on, the world, I think,

is a better place. But just, David, to go back to the point you were

picking up on earlier, about the Newsnight report. The fact is, it

didn't stack up, Peter Rippon said he couldn't get the witnesses,

their statements, just the police couldn't support what was being

said. That's why he didn't run the report. That is perfectly

legitimate as a reason to have dropped it. David made a slightly

different point, he said the BBC should have been alert to the fact

it was going on, even if it didn't stand up. And the key question is

why run tributes to the man if there is an investigation going on?

Wasn't that a mistake in judgment? We have all had to make the

judgment call, but there was a time when Jimmy Savile was perceived to

be a national hero. He quite clearly was an appalling individual.

Those were two programmes that celebrated a body of work. Whether

we like it or not, they were broadcast by the BBC. There were

rumours for decades about him, they weren't substantiated. Do you think

the culture has changed in the profound way Dawn has said. Some

may say it is true, but it is a cop out, whatever he did then is wrong

then as it is now? The culture has been dragged to where we are now

kicking and screaming. There are basic things we still need to be

looking at, that are still wrong with the culture. Certainly, the

sexual revolution came along, when this story first broke, Michael

Grade went on television and said there was a lot of groupy culture

in light entertainment back then, and there is a lot of groupy

culture around now. That idea of groupy culture for successful men

still actually survives. People make a big deal about it not being

for under-16s or paedophiles, but the idea that grown-up men should

award themselves with young women, throwing themselves at them, is

still there. And, what's more, a man I was arguing with about this

earlier today said, well, yes, but what would you do if ten people

were coming to your door every evening offering sex. I said, I

would call police. You have this culture, that although when we are

in the office we are more civilised. But down in Rochdale young women

are being used for sex by men and nobody is listening to them. And on

a small scale that is happening again. It can't happen on the grand

scale as it did in the 1970s at the heart of the BBC. But the thing is

paedophiles shouldn't get into positions of powers and abusing

young girls, and nobody listening to them, that has happened recently.

Congrat layings, as citizens of the European Union -- congratulations,

as citizens of the European Union, we share a part in the Nobel Peace

Prize, awarded to all of us for the role the EC has for keeping the

piece peace on a couldn't nent, where for 100 years has been the

scene of kaornish. With a sense of satire, the award comes as Greeks

dressed up at Nazis, shouting abuse at Germany's Chancellor, and Europe

might be at peace, but not entirely with itself. Nobel Peace Prize Poet

Laureates are an interesting bunch. More than 100 individuals and 20

organisations have won the prize. Peace has always been a slightly

slippery concept. In 1973 Henry Kissinger accepted the prize, while

serving as Secretary of State to President Nixon in the Vietnam War.

He said the prize symbolised the quest for peace rather than

achieving it. In 1976 it went to the founders of the Northern

Ireland peace movement, Robert Koren and Betty Williams. The

troubles continued for another 20 years. And President Obama was the

recipient for his efforts to strengthen international diplomacy,

nine months after he took office. He gave away his prize money. Has

the EU earned the place in the lirs of winners. Here is Paul Mason, a

re -- list of winners. Here is Paul Mason, one of the winners. From

democracy to the European Union, a gong, pretty big one, the Nobel

Peace Prize. The President of Europe, one of three Presidents,

accepted the prize graciously. Committee, and in fact, the

international community, are now standing -- send ago very important

message to Europe, that the European Union is something very

precious, that we should cherish, for the good of Europeans and all

the world. But, hold on a minute, it is quite hard to reconcile that

Europe with this. In southern Europe the financial crisis has

become a crisis of state bankruptcy, austerity imposed from Brussels,

Berlin and Frankfurt, is tearing Greece apart, and Spain and

Portugal are facing social crisis. The idea of taking more and more

power to the centre is so at odds with public opinion, not just in

Britain, but all over Europe. Interest comes a moment when it

becomes unsustainable. It was supposed to make us richer, it

hasn't. It was supposed to make us get on better, it hasn't. All the

arguments made for the EU originally are false, people have

seen through it. It is an ar This is an area of migrants, the actions

of a right-wing extremists last year were in the name of defending

white Christian Europe. We don't have a real public and federal

authority behind the common currency. So, in that way, I think

that it is a Nobel Prize that is an encouragement to go further on the

part of more European integration. For two years, the political elite

of Europe have struggled to impose a solution. The result, riots,

racism, radicalism, recession. Now, they think they have found a

solution, and it's more Europe. A rapid move to fiscal and political

union. But enthusiasm for that, on the streets of Europe, is very

patchy. When you are inside the machine of

euro Government, it can seem like it is permanent, the states,

nationalties, anthems that drove Europe to war in history, are

exactly that, just history. But to Europe's critics, what is happening

is the revenge of history. nation state through the centuries

has been a great vessel for peace and justice and democracy, in a way

these great transnational ideaologies, whether facisim or

Marxism or fundamentalism have never been. You would compare

Europeanism to those? It is obviously not violent, but in the

sense that it refuses to recognise the jurisdiction of the nation

states that it presumes to be bigger than international law, it

make as very dangerous assumption. Europe was always more than an

arrangement, from the catwalks of Milan, to the field of a Danish

rock festival, you always knew what continent you were in. History will

say the EU kept the peace, and removed the causes of totalitarian

rule and genocide, and created a vibe. But what next? I'm an

optimist by nature, but I predict that, in the next elections, in

2014, the next elections for the European Parliament, we could see a

win of pro-European forces, federal forces. And yes, and losses for the

euro-sceptic party. More and more people are aware of the fact that

in a globalised world, it is impossible to defend their

interests, with old fashioned nation states. When you win a big

award, it is always best to look stunned. But Britain's most pro-

European party leader, caught live on air with the news, sounded like

he really was. Worthy winner? I hadn't heard that before.

made an interesting face. For peace in Europe? Well, he suppose, what

do I want to say! Joining me now are three people, who as EU citizen,

share in the Nobel Prize glory, Johann Lamont, former Chancellor of

the Exchequer, Richard Corbett, a former Labour MP, working for the

President of the European channel, and Gillain Tett from the financial

-- President of the European Union, and Gillain Tett from the Financial

Times. If you look back over the last 50 years or so, without the

European Union, it wouldn't have been a safer place? This is an old

myth, the idea that France and Germany would have gone to war

after the tragedy of the Second World War, implies that Europeans

have learned nothing after three wars in 100 years. Lots of things

contribute to peace, NATO contributed to it, the movement of

tourist, global media, knowing about everyone's different

countries. It would be hard to persuade French citizens to fight

against Germany today. Do you think the world would be in a better

place without the EU? I think you need transnationalisation in the

European continent, we have a bureaucracy that is intrusive, and

a very interesting point, some years ago a Nobel Prize-winning

economist, he actually predicted that the eurozone would create more

conflict in Europe. Perhaps they ought to take his prize away. The

whole thing is laughable, it reminds about the death of Little

Nell, from Charles Dickens, you need a heart of stone not to burst

out laughing. Are you going to give the prize money to the Greek, they

deserve it, for staying so specific in the face of difficult problems

they have got? I think two things are being mixed up here. We will

still have arguments in Europe, of course. What the EU has done is

create a structure where the countries of Europe can have those

arguments and are in a some what more civilised way than we have

done in centuries. From the fall of the roam empire, until 1945, every

-- Roman empire, until 1945, every generation slaughtered each other

on the battlefields. We had to do something about it. NATO is a damn

sight better than what we had before. There was the point that

NATO, and the Germans and the French, you might give it to the

Germans for not causing trouble in the second half of the century

after whenever. The Germans are first to say that bringing all the

countries together, NATO and the EU helps, has been fundamental.

Without that, Johann Lamont said, surely they would have learned --

Norman Lamont said they surely they would have learned the lessons.

They didn't after the First World War, 21 years later it was war

again. No attempt of made then to set up a structure, a framework to

systematically overcome our differences. Provide a place where

we could negotiate and agree. You seem to have got the winnings

in your hand? Here is the issue, it is one thing to have a structure

and framework, that is useful. Structure and framework doesn't

make people's hearts beat faster or get them rallying. It is telling

that the prize is awarded to a block, not a person. The clips in

the film are all about prizes for people. The reason it has gone to

the block is there is no-one who will stand up and own the European

Union project who is a hero. If you look at bank notes, it is telling,

on the British bank note there is a Queen, a central person, a rallying

cry. If you look at the American one, George Washington, Lincoln. On

the eurozone bank notes, because there are no people to rally around,

you have a bridge and an arch. People don't feel excited about a

bridge and arch, than they are to create the same sense of social co-

heegs and unity. Is part of the point is that the committee

recognise the problems in the EU and they are offering

encouragement? The EU is incoherent in foreign policy, some members

recognise Kosovo, some don't. Some of them wanted to intervene in the

Iraq War, some didn't. There is no consensus about these big questions

of peace and war in the EU. Richard Corbett says we disagree but not

gone to the war? They claim great credit for what happened in the

Balkans. What happened when Srebrenica was bombarded, the Dutch

stood by and ask nothing. That is what EU peacekeeping did.

Balkans shows precisely what happens to an area outside this

structure and framework. What about Srebrenica jo. It was outside, the

former Yugoslavia was not inside the EU. If you talk to people in

central Europe that is what they value, they are grad low coming

into the area of stability, to -- gradually coming into the area of

stability, to make sure it doesn't happen again. To get your society

to buy into it, to make the sacrifices, in a country like

Germany, to support the European project, is hard without the

central dream. Wouldn't you accept, a that in your lifetime, the EU has

encouraged countries like Greece, Portugal and Spain, fascists states,

to become democracies, and be more friendly with neighbours? The EU

gave support with a framework where there was none. Franco ended his

rule because he died, not because the EU was there, he passed away in

the middle of the night. That is how democracy came to Spain. He

made preparation for a constitutional monarchy. What has

happened with the Nobel Prize committee, this they couldn't think

of anyone to give the prize so. They came up with a tired, weary

old idea. It is just as ridiculous to give it to President Obama after

being in the White House for one minute. It seems bizarre in a week

where seven thousand police are on the streets so Angela Merkel can

visit Athens. Doesn't that strike you as very, very odd? Of course

there will be disagreements about particular policies, and economic

policies, and what should be done. That is natural in any politic cap

structure. People dressed as Nazis on the street? We have pretty big

rows in the UK, why not in the European level. Look also at Greece,

without the largest-ever loan given in international history to a

country. Greece would be in a far, far worse situation. That loan was

given by eurozone partners, there is both a degree of solidarity and

discipline involved in this situation, difficult as it was.

strategy tragedy is what the Nobel Peace Prize is recognising that it

was a dream to heal the wound of World War II. The sad thing is the

European project threatens to reopen them. That is ironic

timing.Le Look what the Greeks are saying

about them? I don't think the difficulties in Greece will lead to

war. One party and some people in Greece are saying that. That is not

the prevailing view. To say that we are going to reopen the conflicts

to the Second World War, it is a completely different scale. It is a

completely different order of magnitude, and thank goodness it is

a different order of magnitude, and a large part that have is thanks to

having had the countries of Europe, come together, build up over 06

years, a structure in which we can work together. We will leave it

there, and look forward to Greece getting the money you have just

been awarded by the Nobel Committee. Let's have a look at the front

Now, after three decades at BBC Television Centre, with a stint at

Lime Grove down the road, this is Newsnight's last programme from

this stud hey. From Monday we will be broadcast -- studio, from Monday,

we will be broadcasting in high-def vision from Broadcasting House,

where Kirsty is now. We are doing some fine tune to go our new studio,

getting ready for the move. We will be broadcasting live, from here at

10.30 on Monday night. Tonight you can say good night Gavin. I will