15/10/2012 Newsnight


15/10/2012

The Scottish referendum deal is signed and the two sides square up. What does processed food do to your brain? And what's the point of men? With Kirsty Wark.


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Transcript


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Today, the 300-year union between England and Scotland was put on

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notice. Alex Salmond has got his referendum.

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And now the battle has commenced over everything from the economy to

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killing off Trident. As Mr Cameron leaves Scotland, the

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question is, is the union safer or more in jeopardy?

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We will hear from Scotland's leading "yes" woman, and Alistair

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Darling, the man who says "no". You are what you eat, but do you

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know what you are eating and what it does to your body and your brain.

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Shrimp scampi for you, smell that garlic. While scientists begin to

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look at how addictive food is. The lawyers are chasing big food for

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billions. These companies will be forced to obey the law and be

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forced to pay a lot of money, and they have brought it on themselves.

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Is it game over for men, a sensational new book claims the

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global recession is ushering in a matriarchy, not so says Mary Beard,

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as she takes on the author of The End of Men.

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Good evening, signed, sealed and delivered. At least Alex Salmond

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and David Cameron have agreed there will be a legally binding

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referendum on Scottish independence in 2014, even if that's all they

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agree on. Less than 20 years after the referendum, which established a

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Scottish Parliament, voters in Scotland, including 16 and 17-year-

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olds, are going to vote on going all the way. The serried ranks,

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some would say the unholy alliance of Labour, Conservative and Liberal

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Democrats, are going to battle for the union, that has been in place

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since 1707. We witnessed the historic deal between the Prime

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Minister and the First Minister in the Scottish capital, and joins us

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there from now. Kirsty, it's not often that

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politicians can legitimately claim that in the course of their day's

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work they have done something that could echo down the centuries. But

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here in Edinburgh today, two leaders have met, they have shaken

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hands, and they have agreed to do something. They have agreed to take

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a gamble, that they are right, and the other man is wrong. For Alex

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Salmond, the gamble is simple, for the last decade or so, the

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electoral success of the SNP, and it has been successful, they have a

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majority in the Scottish Parliament, has been to say to the largely

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independent, sceptical Scottish public, don't worry, if you don't

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agree with us on this, we can park this issue and decide another day.

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That day is coming, it will be in the autumn of 2014. He is about to

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define himself, he is defining himself on the other side of public

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opinion, from the vast, or at least the majority, of the Scottish

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public. For David Cameron, it is a gamble as well. He's saying that,

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although he cares passionately about the future of the union, it's

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probably more dangerous for him, in the course of that union's future,

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to stand against a referendum. He has done everything he can today,

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even going along with, what he would probably regard, as some

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grandise choreography, to prevent - - grandiose choreography, to

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prevent the Scottish showing him as a great English story for the date

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with destiny. Two men take a gamble, and we won't know who it is for two

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years. For a potentially momentous day in

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Scottish history, the First Minister, at least, it started on a

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microscale, reading to little children. But the text was, well,

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apt enough. For those not familiar with the excellent We're Going On A

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Bear Hunt, it is a tale of perseverence, of overcoming

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seemingly insurmountable obstacles, bay facing them head on. -- by

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facing them head on. "mud, boozing mud, we can't go over it, we can't

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go under it, no, we have to go through the mud". Through all sorts

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of political mud, Alex Salmond has squelched his way through to a

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referendum. Not everyone thought he had the legal right to call one.

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But today came the might of the Government of David Cameron who

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lend him that right to have one, in return for certain conditions. If

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this reminds you of a state visit, you might think that is one of Alex

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Salmond's objectives, to show, with the choreography of this event,

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that the Prime Minister visiting parts of the UK, is actually coming

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to an already independent-minded country. Are you ready. OK.

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signing had the appearance of an international treaty, which David

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Cameron clearly won hands down. If If the objective was, who could

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sign fastest. In terms of the agreement itself, a winner is

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harder to call. Alex Salmond certainly got what he wanted in

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terms of timing, the autumn of 2014, not only the anniversary of

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Bannockburn, but also, it gives him more time to try to turn around

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public opinion. He also got 16 and 17-year-olds eligible to vote. More

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likely, some say, to vote for independence. And what did David

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Cameron get? His big prize was, limiting the referendum to a single

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question, independence, yes or not. No third option that the SNP wanted,

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no option for Devo Max. We got what I have always wanted, not two

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single questions, not Devo Max, a very simple single question that

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has to be put before the end of 2014, so we end the uncertainty, we

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put beyond doubt Scotland's position, either within the United

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Kingdom, as I hope, or separating theself from the United Kingdom.

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One, single, simple question, that, for me, was always the key. Don't

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expect David Cameron to be making too many visits to Scotland to make

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the case for the union. Before fearless Felix stepped out

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of his balloon capsule, the previous free fall record was held

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by the Scottish Conservative Party. They haven't fully emerged from the

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sizeable impact crater they have made. Don't expect them to be

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leading the way for the union in Scottened la, instead, expect

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Labour to do much of the -- Scotland, instead, expect Labour to

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do much of the heavy lifting. To have people like David Cameron,

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very ideaable with England, talking about the advantages of being in

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the union, is that actually damaging to your cause? No, I don't

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think so. I think he's quite comfortable in St Andrew's House,

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because the affectionate name for the SNP is, "the tartan Tories", he

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will find fellow travellers there. The question of whether we remain

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in the union, transcends political parties. It is about what's good

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for the people of the country. You will find people come together,

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from Labour, the Liberal Democrats, those in a party, those not even

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aligned at all, because they care about the future of Scotland.

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If you are Alex Salmond, how do you claim to have won the negotiations

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game, set and match, without appearing smug? Well, off the cuff,

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entirely unscripted, you could say, something like this. I used to have

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in my notes, which no doubt came from the special advisers, it says,

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"do not look triumphalists", so in this press conference, I'm doing my

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absolute best not to look triumphalist! At his press

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conference, the First Minister tried to he can sued the air of a

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man who had -- he can sued the air of a man who dexude the air of a

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man who had everything he wanted. In Edinburgh they will everything

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they wanted, that will be built on behalf of the Scottish people. That

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is the substantial and important step forward, do I believe that

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independence will win this campaign? Yes, I do. We will win it

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by setting out a positive vision for a better future for our country,

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economically, and crucially, socially. It is that vision of That

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is a vision of a compassionate and confident society moving forward in

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Scotland that will carry away. What he hasn't won -- Carry the day.

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What he hasn't won yet is the referendum itself. And the polls

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suggest now he won't. The majority in Scotland are opposed, only 28%

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are in favour. But with two years left to go, perhaps he still has

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time to squelch through that obstacle as well.

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In a moment we will hear from a leading figure of the "no" campaign,

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Alistair Darling. Before coming on air, I spoke to the Deputy First

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Minister of Scotland, the SNP's Nicola Sturgeon.

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Nicola Sturgeon, consistently polling shows 2-1 against

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independence, isn't this going to be like pushing a boulder up a

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giant mountain? It is a challenge, I readily accept that. But it is a

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challenge we relish. You will remember, Kirsty, back in January

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of 2011, the SNP was ten fifteen points back in the opinion polls,

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people wrote us off and we won a majority in the election. If we put

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the argument for independence as effectively and compellingly as we

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know it can be put, I'm confident we can turn the polls around and

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win the referendum. Let as talk about the economy, that is

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obviously uppermost in people's minds, you want to stick to

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sterling, what control will you have over the sterling, except to

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leave it? We will have fiscal independence, we don't that have

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that now. You will be like Greece and Slovenia, and what have you?

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The comparisons with Greece and Slovenia are not particularly

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credible comparisons. Scotland and the rest of the UK have similar

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levels of productivity, it is described as an optimal currency

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area, it makes sense for Scotland and the rest of the UK to retain

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that currency union. We would have fiscal independence to take

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decisions about tax and spending, that best reflect our needs in

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Scotland. Who will set the interest rates in Scotland? As is case at

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the moment, that would be done through the Bank of England.

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the benefit of England, Wales and Northern Ireland, primarily? That

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would be done for the benefit of the constituent parts of the stairl

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sterling parts owing. What we would have that we don't have now, is

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fiscal independence, it would allow us to ensure we have tax and

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spending controls for our needs, and control over the welfare system.

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Right now we see a Conservative Government dismantling the welfare

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state, independence would allow a welfare system that suits our needs.

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You are heavily dependant on oil revenues, in our new system, you

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don't know what percentage of revenues you are going to get. You

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don't know what the price will be, you haven't even done that

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negotiation, how can you promise Scottish people more? But you look

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at the Government extendure and -- expenditure and revenue account,

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published independently by Government economist, the most

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recent version of that, the 2010 will be 11 figures, shows Scotland

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was better off d2010/1 figures, shows Scotland better off to the

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rest of England. If we were independent then, we could have

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choices we could have made. We could have spent more and reduced

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borrowing more, and cut taxes or a bomb nation of all of these things.

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Scotland more than pays her way. The question is, do we want to have

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the economic and political powers that allow us to take the decisions

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about how those resources are spent. Both you and Alex Salmond are very

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keen to say that you admire the cultural ties you have with England

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and so forth. How much do you think has Scotland

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gained from the union? I think Scotland has gained in some ways

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from the union, but I do think the lack of political and economic

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powers outweighs. That I want Scotland to have a close and

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constructive and friendly relationship with people right

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across these islands. I'm the granddaughter of an English woman,

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I cheered Mo Farah in the Olympics, as loudly as Andy Murray. We're not

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asking people to choose a flag or a national identity, we are asking

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people to consider where political and economic power best lies.

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Surely the people that are best placed to take these big decisions

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of Scotland, are the people who have the biggest stake in the

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future of our country. The people who live and work here. That is the

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essence for the case for independence. When we put it like

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that, and when people realising those arguing for the "no" vote are

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offering no guaranteed change. You will then see the opinion polls

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change. Alistair Darling is, of course, the

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former Chancellor, he's acting as the chair of the Berry -- Better

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Together Campaign. Does it feel right to be in cahoots with a party

:13:21.:13:27.

that has one MP out of 129? disagree with David Cameron and

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George Osborne and Nick Clegg on many issues, that doesn't stop me

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from choose to go share a platform with other people who believe we

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are better off together within the United Kingdom. It doesn't mean you

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agree with all their policies. We are not talking here about electing

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a parliament for five years, or whatever. You are talking about

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something that could last another 300 years. I think most people, the

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majority of people in Scotland believe that we are better together

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as part of the UK. This is all a bit rich, for people like you and

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Gordon Brown, and Charlie Kennedy, had decided to eschew Westminster

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and gone to parliament in Edinburgh, the idea is we wouldn't have been

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in this position, because you would have lent your weight to

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devolution? The fact is the Scottish Parliament wasn't there

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when we stood for election. It wasn't until 1997 when it was set

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up. You could have absented yourself? It could have done,

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except I chose to remain in Westminster. Because it was better?

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No, because if you take the economy, I was responsible for many things

:14:30.:14:33.

that affect Scotland. That doesn't get away from the fact that the

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nationalists, who won the Scottish election last year, are entitled,

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because this is what they believe in, to put before people, the

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option of leaving the United Kingdom. I think that is profoundly

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wrong. Which is why I'm leading thism ka pain. Its not about me or

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-- this campaign, it is not about me or Gordon or Charlie, this will

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be something that will be there long after we are going down.

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are leading a negative "no" campaign? It is called Better

:15:00.:15:05.

Together. It is the "no" campaign. You want to characterise it like

:15:05.:15:09.

that. No to independence? We are better together as the United

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Kingdom, because we have a single economic market, most of what we

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sell goes to England. It also, because it builds on the strong

:15:17.:15:20.

cultural ties we have. And a third part, it gives us more influence,

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not just in Europe, but the wider world. Just as Andrew Mitchell

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finds it hard to say the word "pleb" you find it hard to say "no",

:15:29.:15:34.

you are leading the "no" to independence campaign?

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emphatically against independence, I'm very much in favour of staying

:15:36.:15:39.

in the United Kingdom, because I believe as a country, as Scotland,

:15:39.:15:43.

we don't have to choose between being Scottish and British, we can

:15:43.:15:47.

be proud to be both, it is in the best interests of Scotland in terms

:15:47.:15:50.

of jobs and security, as well as recognising that the United Kingdom

:15:50.:15:57.

is more than the sum of the parts. We can be ambitious about our

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prospects for the future, as part of the United Kingdom. You have put

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out as the leading face for the "no" campaign against Alex Salmond,

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are you a better politician or he better as a politician than you?

:16:11.:16:14.

is not that question. He believes in taking Scotland out of the

:16:14.:16:17.

United Kingdom. I believe Scotland is better together as part of the

:16:17.:16:21.

United Kingdom, and that is the basis of a campaign. He has won an

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election, straight in Scotland? is interesting, a lot of the polls

:16:24.:16:27.

that have been carried out, people say, yes, for the Government of

:16:27.:16:31.

Scotland, they voted for him, but nearly a third of SNP voters, last

:16:31.:16:35.

time round, said they are not going to vote for independence. People

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vote given ways at different times. This isn't an argument about which

:16:39.:16:43.

politician is better than another. It might come down to that? No, it

:16:43.:16:47.

doesn't. People in Scotland will have to decide whether or not they

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and their country are better together as part of the UK, with

:16:49.:16:53.

all the strengths, all the traditions that builds on, or

:16:53.:16:59.

whether we take what is in effect a one-way ticket into a deeply

:16:59.:17:02.

uncertain future. Would you live in an independent Scotland? Of course

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I will carry on living in Scotland. My argument isn't that Scotland

:17:05.:17:11.

couldn't go it alone. And indeed, Nicola Sturgeon was quoting figures

:17:11.:17:15.

there, plucking one set of figuring out of a series of 20, many of

:17:15.:17:17.

which show the complete oppositement when you look at the

:17:17.:17:22.

problems you are going to have in entering into a eurozone-style

:17:22.:17:25.

single currency, you have to enter into a fiscal pact that doesn't

:17:25.:17:29.

allow different countries to go their own way. It rather binds them

:17:29.:17:32.

together. And ultimately it ends up in political union. When you look

:17:32.:17:35.

at the arguments the nationalists are putting forward, it makes no

:17:35.:17:38.

sense at all. They are trying to argue that everything will change,

:17:38.:17:44.

but nothing will change. The next time you buy packaged food,

:17:44.:17:48.

peer at the ingredient, all of them, and try to work out what they all

:17:48.:17:51.

are. Chances are if it is processed you won't be able to figure out

:17:51.:17:56.

exactly what you are eating, and so concerned are health specialists

:17:56.:17:58.

and campaigners about the sometimes horrible stuff you unknowingly put

:17:58.:18:04.

in your mouth, and the health implications, diep II diabetes,

:18:04.:18:07.

that American lawyers are prepared to go after billions of dollars.

:18:07.:18:11.

They have had a huge victory before. In the first of a series of films

:18:11.:18:21.
:18:21.:18:25.

this week about what we eat, here is our science editor.

:18:25.:18:29.

# It's just a cigarette # It will soon be only ten

:18:30.:18:35.

# Honey can you trust me # When I want to stop I can

:18:35.:18:38.

Cutting smoking was one of the great public health battles of the

:18:38.:18:42.

last century. At first, the idea that cigarettes

:18:42.:18:46.

were bad for you, was dismissed, out of hand.

:18:46.:18:52.

By the end, the toe bab co- companies admitted, in court, that

:18:52.:18:56.

smoking was -- to be back co- companies admitted, in court, that

:18:56.:19:01.

smoking was harmful, and they agreed to pay substantial damages.

:19:01.:19:08.

The to be back co-lawsuits hit those companies -- tobacco lawsuits

:19:08.:19:17.

hit those companies hard, over �$2 billion. Now the food industry is

:19:17.:19:23.

facing the same argument. Some food producers survive on a business

:19:23.:19:27.

model that means exploiting children from a young age, and

:19:27.:19:30.

having foods high in sugar, fat and salt, because people consume those

:19:30.:19:35.

things, it is labelling things in questionable questions. The food

:19:35.:19:40.

companies have mis-branded many, many of the packaged foods that

:19:40.:19:48.

they sell as healthy, and natural. Also as sugar-free. You can't say

:19:48.:19:52.

it is all natural when it is choc full of preservatives. They are

:19:52.:19:58.

lying about it, and they have to stop. Don Barrett led the fight

:19:58.:20:04.

against big tobacco, he worked on the Jeffrey Wigand case, the

:20:04.:20:14.
:20:14.:20:17.

whistleblower who told all. movie was spot on with what

:20:17.:20:22.

happened. I have this vivid rex collections that The Insider we

:20:23.:20:28.

flipped in parliament who testified for us at great personal risk.

:20:28.:20:32.

Jail? Possible, yes, that is one of the possible consequences of your

:20:32.:20:36.

testifying today. I remember him, as he made his decision, and it was

:20:36.:20:44.

fascinating to watch Russell Crowe do the same thing. Let's go to

:20:44.:20:48.

court. Now Barrett and many of those lawyers are turning their

:20:48.:20:53.

guns on big food. The case against the food companies is simple, that

:20:53.:20:57.

they are not being honest about what's in their product. They have

:20:57.:21:02.

a right to know, and that's what our litigation is about. It's about

:21:02.:21:08.

freedom of choice, and to have free choice, you have to have accurate

:21:08.:21:14.

information, what that means is, that the big food, the food

:21:14.:21:18.

companies have to start telling the truth about what is in their

:21:18.:21:27.

products. The law requires it. years ago, Mr Barrett began his

:21:27.:21:36.

campaign against big tobacco here in Lexington Mississippi. Since

:21:36.:21:41.

then the number of obese Americans have doubled, the ballooning

:21:41.:21:45.

medical costs already rival those of smoking. What is in our food is

:21:45.:21:48.

becoming the public health battle of this century. And labelling is

:21:48.:21:53.

the first battleground. One lawsuit concerns a yoghurt maker, Chobani.

:21:53.:21:57.

You look for sugar, because you don't want any, there is none there.

:21:57.:22:04.

They do have evaporated cane juice, that sounds, sort of vague, and

:22:04.:22:11.

some how healthy, and natural. Evaporated cane juice, if you live

:22:11.:22:15.

in southern Louisiana, in Cuba, you understand what that is, that is

:22:16.:22:23.

sugar. The law says, you have to call ingredients by their common,

:22:23.:22:28.

ordinary name, calling sugar evaporated cane juice is deceptive,

:22:28.:22:38.
:22:38.:22:38.

it is a lie, it is illegal. Chobani told us they have built

:22:38.:22:42.

their business on being authentic and transparent, and they fully

:22:42.:22:46.

stand behind their products. Don Barrett is suing the makers of over

:22:46.:22:52.

20 item, including fruit juices, crisps, soft drinks, chocolate,

:22:52.:22:58.

tinned tomatos, canned fruits, baby milk and tea. Under federal law, if

:22:58.:23:03.

a product is mis-branded, it cannot be sold. There is a four-year

:23:04.:23:08.

statute of limitations, the damage in these cases, is how much have

:23:08.:23:12.

they sold of this mis-branded junk in the last four years. One of the

:23:12.:23:20.

potato chip companies we are suing, you know, sells $13 billion worth

:23:20.:23:24.

of product a year. My goodness. are seeing the beginning of what

:23:24.:23:29.

could be a much larger set of legal actions taken against the food

:23:29.:23:35.

industry. This is one of the world's leading experts on obesity

:23:35.:23:39.

and public health. He thinks the industry will fight as hard as

:23:39.:23:43.

tobacco did, to keep its business model intact. The industry in the

:23:43.:23:46.

United States and elsewhere in the world has been happy to make some

:23:46.:23:51.

small changes, but when it comes to taxing their products, they have

:23:51.:23:54.

gone completely ballistic. When it comes to restricting portion sizes,

:23:54.:23:59.

they have done the same thing. They are doing lots of the things the

:23:59.:24:04.

tobacco industry did to fight these massive lobbying. Resources put

:24:04.:24:08.

into political campaigns, heavy public relations and advertising

:24:08.:24:14.

campaigns they are running. Creating fun groups with community,

:24:14.:24:19.

wholesome-sounding names. Researchers here at Yale are

:24:19.:24:26.

looking much more closely at the links between processed food and

:24:26.:24:30.

diet-related illness. They are increasingly convinced

:24:30.:24:35.

that it is the particular combination of sugar, fat and salt,

:24:35.:24:40.

and its concentration in refined form, that leads us to want to eat

:24:40.:24:45.

more. Lawyers talk about informed choice. But scientists are asking

:24:45.:24:50.

whether some have the ability to choose at all.

:24:50.:24:55.

It is pretty year that some foods, sugar in particular, activate the

:24:55.:25:00.

same reward pathways in the brain, the classic substances of abuse,

:25:00.:25:04.

still, heroin, cocaine, nicotine, alcohol, et cetera. Nobody claims

:25:04.:25:08.

that food has that strong of an effect, as those classic substances,

:25:09.:25:15.

but in effect, nonetheless, -- an effect, nonetheless. There are

:25:15.:25:19.

signs from animal and human studies that you get cravings from these

:25:19.:25:23.

foods, you get withdrawal when people stop consuming them. There

:25:23.:25:27.

might even been be something called toll reign, that you need more of

:25:27.:25:31.

the same substance over time -- tolerance, that you need more of

:25:31.:25:35.

the same substance over time to get the same effect. Why does

:25:35.:25:39.

scientific research tell us about how what we eat is affecting our

:25:39.:25:45.

bodies. Here at the National laboratory in Long Island, they are

:25:45.:25:50.

looking at the effect of diet on our brains. It is an early area of

:25:50.:25:53.

research, but it could push the whole debate in another direction.

:25:53.:25:58.

This is one of the US Government's leading addiction labs. I have

:25:58.:26:04.

shrimp, scampi for you, smell that garlic and the shrimp. Researchers

:26:04.:26:09.

allow subjects to see, smell and taste foods they like, and monitor

:26:09.:26:15.

how vigorously their brain responds. By measuring how much dop dopamine

:26:15.:26:25.
:26:25.:26:27.

is released. Dopamine is one of the brain's messenger, it helps us

:26:27.:26:32.

engage in rewarding exercises. Addicts are addicted to the

:26:32.:26:36.

dopamine, rather than the drug. you feel hungry now, give me a

:26:36.:26:41.

number, one to ten? Nine. They say people who are very obese, are less

:26:41.:26:46.

able to pick up their own dopamine signal, so need more of what makes

:26:46.:26:55.

them feel good. I'm starving. me a number, one to 10. I'm passed

:26:55.:27:01.

the ten, 14. Some people who crave food or drugs, want more and more,

:27:01.:27:06.

because they are never satisfied. Taste that banana cream pie, isn't

:27:06.:27:16.

that good, OK that's it. We found that the obese person, their brain

:27:16.:27:21.

dopamine receptor imaging, very similar to drug abuser, such as

:27:21.:27:24.

cocaine abuser. The higher rate means the higher activity, the one

:27:24.:27:31.

in the blue means a low activity. Dr Wang's scans shows the brain's

:27:31.:27:35.

dopamine response to food in obese people and cocaine in drug users,

:27:35.:27:41.

the parallels are striking. So that means also they have roughly around

:27:42.:27:47.

15-20% of the less dopamine receptor, we can see these are very

:27:47.:27:51.

similar between the obese person and the drug abuser. And though it

:27:51.:27:54.

is early days, there is evidence that the brains of some people

:27:54.:27:59.

might be changed over time, if they eat calorie-dense food. The more

:27:59.:28:07.

you need processed food, the brain gradually is less sense yif to each

:28:07.:28:11.

mouthful and you have to -- sensitive to each mouthful and you

:28:11.:28:14.

have to eat more and more. I would be surprised if this doesn't enter

:28:14.:28:17.

the legal picture. Whether that is premature or not, those will be

:28:18.:28:22.

decisions a court will have to make. Is the science strong enough, have

:28:22.:28:24.

we really proven these are addictive. But the science is

:28:24.:28:30.

building and building. So far the food debate has centered

:28:30.:28:33.

on content and labelling. The food industry argues such things are

:28:33.:28:38.

best left to theself. But many believe that self-regulation can't

:28:38.:28:44.

work. They, like any industry, want to maximise consumption and

:28:45.:28:49.

purchase of their products. Hard to blame them for that, that is what

:28:49.:28:53.

they are in business to do, so expecting and hoping industry will

:28:53.:28:58.

effectively regulate theself, is just wishful thinking, I believe. -

:28:58.:29:01.

- themselves, is just wishful thinking, I believe. That is why I

:29:01.:29:04.

believe you have to have Government or the courts involved. There is

:29:04.:29:08.

one thing that corporate America pays attention to. And that's

:29:08.:29:16.

getting hit in the pocket book, it is all about profit. And if only

:29:16.:29:22.

when you affect their -- effect their profit will you affect their

:29:22.:29:27.

behaviour. We intend to do that. # It is just a cigarette

:29:27.:29:31.

# Like you always used to do # I was different then

:29:31.:29:36.

# I don't need them to be cool Big food knows what happens in

:29:36.:29:42.

individual lawsuits can radically affect all of their brands.

:29:43.:29:48.

The tobacco lawsuits led to rapid and lasting change in attitudes to

:29:48.:29:52.

cigarettes, how they were marketed, labelled and regulated. The food

:29:52.:29:58.

companies will be watching Don Barrett's cases closely.

:29:58.:30:02.

Joining me now from Washington is Justin Wilson of the Center for

:30:02.:30:06.

Consumer Freedom, and here in the studio is a cardiologist, who has

:30:06.:30:13.

been outspoken on obesity. Do you agree with the thesis that

:30:13.:30:17.

essentially unhealthy junk food is addictive? As your report has shown,

:30:17.:30:22.

I think that there is definitely a science that suggests sugar in

:30:22.:30:26.

particular, is not only toxic, but acts on a brain that drives

:30:26.:30:30.

appetite, and stops us from feeling full. Whether that's objective, we

:30:30.:30:34.

need more data on that, certainly there is a theory this could be

:30:34.:30:39.

true. And when you look at some of the patients that you see, and you

:30:39.:30:42.

obviously see clinically obese people, but you see people with

:30:42.:30:46.

heart problems, who are not obese, is there a co-relation between

:30:46.:30:50.

their lifestyle, in terms of the food they eat, and how they are

:30:50.:30:53.

presenting to you? Absolutely. Let's look at the statistics at the

:30:53.:30:58.

moment, even for children, in this country one in three children in

:30:58.:31:03.

this country are overweight or he obese. More recently, we also

:31:03.:31:12.

discovered that there are markers of cardiac disease in country,

:31:12.:31:18.

there was a study showing children with markers of high cholesterol

:31:18.:31:23.

and issues with the heart, that is related to diet. If the food

:31:23.:31:26.

companies won't regulate themselves, is there a need for some form of

:31:26.:31:31.

regulation about the content of food? Let's be clear the debate

:31:31.:31:34.

about food addiction is ridiculous. We are addicted to food, it is

:31:34.:31:40.

clear, it is called hunger, if you try to go cold turkey, good luck,

:31:40.:31:47.

you won't survive it. If salt and sugar were addictive substances,

:31:47.:31:52.

that would make my grandmother a big drug dealer with the cookies

:31:52.:31:58.

she used to make. I reject this notion fully, that Americans cannot

:31:58.:32:02.

tell the difference between a banana and a banana split. If

:32:02.:32:05.

someone is saying we need to sue a crisp manufacturer for making

:32:06.:32:13.

something that people thought was healthy, come on, people know

:32:13.:32:18.

potato chips shouldn't be enjoyed in large quantities. We are missing

:32:18.:32:23.

the point. I'm not at all. What people choose to eat is determined

:32:23.:32:27.

more by the promotional information put on the products, not objective

:32:27.:32:32.

information about the nutritional content. We know there are cereals

:32:32.:32:36.

out there, marketed as being full of vitamin, they are loaded with

:32:36.:32:41.

sugar and salt. This is not allowing people to make informed

:32:41.:32:50.

decision. These words, "evaporated cane juice", why not call it sugar,

:32:50.:32:53.

"evaporated cane juice" sounds like something special. That argument,

:32:53.:32:58.

one I have been following closely I think it represents 1%, and it is a

:32:59.:33:03.

problem. Do you know who doesn't make a claim about their food, ice-

:33:03.:33:06.

cream manufacturers, there is not a label on the front of ice-cream

:33:06.:33:12.

that says the calcium in this milk makes your bones strong. Nobody

:33:12.:33:17.

makes those claims about the vast majority of foods being claimed

:33:17.:33:21.

unhealthy. That is not the problem here. Fundamentally, I don't

:33:21.:33:25.

understand at what point we decided it was OK for the Government to

:33:25.:33:29.

decide how much we are allowed to weigh. That is not a point, I don't

:33:29.:33:33.

think, that the Government should have to make. Even though it has an

:33:33.:33:37.

impact on the healthcare system? have two different healthcare

:33:37.:33:42.

system,ly speak to everyone. In the UK everyone pays for each other's

:33:42.:33:48.

bad behaviour, but obesity is only one of many bad behaviours that

:33:48.:33:53.

contribute to rising healthcare costs. Why is it the one that we

:33:53.:33:56.

seem to be allowing to regulate it. I have talked to a lot of people,

:33:56.:34:01.

you have a lot of people looking down their nose at people who are

:34:01.:34:06.

overweight, saying they know what is best for you, and protect you

:34:06.:34:12.

from yourself, it is paternalistic. You were behind one of the moves

:34:12.:34:16.

against the supermarkets that didn't go on, would that have

:34:16.:34:19.

helped? There is strong evidence that suggest traffic light systems

:34:19.:34:22.

makes it easier for people to know what they are eating and

:34:22.:34:25.

encouraging healthy choice. If we have a traffic light system that

:34:25.:34:31.

displays the levels of sugar, salt and saturated fat in foods, it will

:34:31.:34:35.

encourage the food companies to reformulate their products and make

:34:35.:34:38.

them healthy. Wouldn't that be a positive way forward? The traffic

:34:38.:34:42.

light system, to a certain extent we already have it. It seems we are

:34:42.:34:45.

trying to force more and more manufacturing, we have a good

:34:45.:34:49.

balance. If you want to know what is in your food, it is on the back.

:34:49.:34:52.

Its clear, whether in the United States or Europe or anywhere else.

:34:53.:34:56.

At the same time, we live in culture of warning labels and

:34:56.:35:00.

lawsuits, we are going to get to a point where we have to put a little

:35:00.:35:05.

bit of responsibility on the consumer. Like I said before, it

:35:05.:35:10.

doesn't like a PhD in nutrition to tell the difference between a

:35:10.:35:14.

banana and a banana split F someone is trying to eek out a calorie or

:35:14.:35:18.

two savings, they are not trying to lose weight. What we are losing

:35:18.:35:21.

track of, we are not trying to encourage people to lose weight

:35:21.:35:25.

with the policies. The stream of allegations of child

:35:25.:35:29.

sex abuse by Jimmy Savile continues on an almost daily basis. The BBC

:35:29.:35:31.

has ordered three separate independent investigations into

:35:31.:35:36.

claims thatm so of the assaults took place on its premises. Tonight

:35:36.:35:40.

the Labour leader, Ed Miliband, said there should be a public

:35:40.:35:44.

inquiry carried out by an outside body. I think we need a broader

:35:44.:35:48.

look at the public institutions, the BBC, some parts of the NHS,

:35:49.:35:53.

potentially. Broadmoor. A judicial inquiry? I'm still open-minded

:35:53.:35:56.

about how it is done, it has to be independent. I don't think you can

:35:56.:36:01.

have the BBC board, I'm great supporter of the BBc but I don't

:36:01.:36:06.

think you can have the BBC board leading its own inquiry. Do you

:36:06.:36:11.

this this is a surprising intervention by Ed Miliband,

:36:11.:36:19.

everyone else has piled in? There are many reasons, and I will go

:36:19.:36:24.

through them. He interferes in those situations, after the Milly

:36:24.:36:28.

Dowler inquiry he piled in. It is because he has a theory about

:36:29.:36:32.

British society right now, which is establishments are crumbling,

:36:32.:36:36.

exactly the thing in the spotlight with the BBC investigation, the

:36:36.:36:39.

1970s, that period where you had an establishment and people wouldn't

:36:39.:36:42.

say boo to a goose, and people are coming out and doing. That he wants

:36:42.:36:47.

to support that. The other problem for that is the BBC, it relies on

:36:47.:36:52.

trust, the number of inquiries, the one inquiry on the Thursday, two

:36:52.:36:55.

inquiries being announced on the Friday. It didn't inspire much

:36:55.:36:58.

confidence in many people in parliament. Does the pressure on

:36:58.:37:03.

the BBC continue? It does, today George Entwistle, the director-

:37:03.:37:06.

general, has said he will bring forward his appearance in front of

:37:06.:37:10.

an MPs' committee to October 23rd, he will have to have more rigorous

:37:10.:37:14.

answers than he had when he appeared on Friday. Many people

:37:14.:37:16.

weren't impressed with that appearance.

:37:16.:37:22.

Imagine the scene, the recession hits, and suddenly it's the rise of

:37:22.:37:26.

the valkaries, scattering all the hunter gatherers in their wake. The

:37:26.:37:30.

women have been able to take the circumstances in their stride, they

:37:30.:37:35.

thrive while men shrivel and quake, unable to adapt. That is the thesis,

:37:35.:37:39.

in a nutshell, of Hanna Rosin's new book, The End of Men. In a molt I

:37:39.:37:44.

will be talking to the author, and the historian, Mary Beard, who

:37:44.:37:48.

disagrees we are becoming a matriarchal society. First a man

:37:48.:37:52.

comfortable in his skin. Stephen Smith. Our island story was once

:37:52.:38:01.

about the great man theory of history, Cromwell, Nelson,

:38:01.:38:05.

Churchill Thatch...you get the idea. In the work place, the man was top

:38:05.:38:09.

dog, earning big wages in traditional metal-bashing

:38:09.:38:12.

industries. It was tough to get a look in as a

:38:12.:38:17.

woman. An ordinary dinner party. I wonder

:38:17.:38:21.

if the Government should return to the gold standard? I think it

:38:21.:38:24.

should. I think the Government should stay off the gold standard,

:38:24.:38:28.

so that the pound can reach a level that will keep our exports

:38:28.:38:32.

competitive. The lady has foolishly attempted to join the conversation,

:38:32.:38:38.

with a wild and dangerous opinion of her own, what half baked drivel.

:38:38.:38:44.

Women, know your limits. But now look, men are in turn

:38:44.:38:50.

around, the Hary Bikers are on a diet. What about Aussie sports

:38:50.:38:55.

legend, Shane Warne, whisper it, he uses product.

:38:55.:39:01.

Never mind the great man of history, men are history, period, or so says

:39:01.:39:08.

a new book. In China women own more than 40% of businesses. By 2008,

:39:08.:39:13.

working-class women in America had a higher median income than the men.

:39:13.:39:17.

And the number of women with six- figure incomes is rising at a much

:39:17.:39:24.

faster rate than it is for men. In the shadow of West Ham United's

:39:25.:39:30.

ground in East London, we called in at a Working Men's Club to discuss

:39:30.:39:37.

Hanna Rosin's book. These fans of the Irons, turned out to be dab

:39:37.:39:43.

hands at pressing their shirts. Are you pretty tastey with an iron?

:39:43.:39:49.

pretty good. Did you do that? Nice piece of work, if I may say so.

:39:49.:39:54.

You can say it. All the industry around here is finished, the docks

:39:54.:40:02.

all closed down. Do you think, that look like the book for me? No. It

:40:02.:40:08.

just doesn't seem my type of book. A bit heavy? Probably very heavy, I

:40:08.:40:13.

should think. To go through this, I would probably get a little bit,

:40:13.:40:23.

you know, here we go! Journalist, Nicholas Lezzard, has written about

:40:23.:40:28.

the trials of modern manhood, are we washed up? I like to think I'm

:40:28.:40:32.

still good for getting a spider out of the bath, changing a lightbulb

:40:32.:40:37.

or blown fuse. That is where you come into your own? Absolutely,

:40:37.:40:43.

yeah. Real crises like that! Never mind being sacked and not having

:40:43.:40:49.

any money, this is where the real stuff is. I still class myself as

:40:49.:40:54.

the master of my house. I don't class myself as demeaning myself by

:40:54.:40:58.

doing tasks. I'm helping my wife out, because my wife is going to

:40:58.:41:02.

work and being the bread winner, basically. What will your missus

:41:02.:41:07.

say when she watches this tonight, if she does, what will she say?

:41:07.:41:17.
:41:17.:41:18.

Superstar! No, she'll just probably have a chuckle to herself, I should

:41:18.:41:24.

think. I'm joined by the author of The End

:41:24.:41:31.

of Men, Hanna Rosin, and the Cambridge professor, Mary Beard.

:41:31.:41:36.

You are suggesting there is no way back from this, Industrial Society

:41:36.:41:42.

has changed, and men as hunter gatherers is doomed? It is about

:41:42.:41:46.

women adapting to the new economy and men having a harder time doing

:41:46.:41:50.

that. It is getting the degrees and credentials they need, and men are

:41:50.:41:54.

stuck. Men are rabbits in the headlights and women are already

:41:54.:42:01.

there, because they have had so many jobs in the house? It is also

:42:01.:42:05.

because they have been marginalised, they are like immigrants, they

:42:05.:42:09.

hustle and feel like they get paid less than men, they are working

:42:09.:42:15.

twice as hard, and afraid to fall through the cracks. I think Hanna,

:42:15.:42:19.

in a funny way, are on the same side. We both think things are

:42:19.:42:22.

changing. If things weren't changing for women, the feminist

:42:22.:42:26.

movement would have done a really bad over the last 50 years. Things

:42:26.:42:32.

are getting better, that is absolutely true. Look at women on

:42:32.:42:36.

the boardrooms and executive positions, they are in a vast

:42:36.:42:41.

minority? I think it is great book, which proves the opposite case for

:42:41.:42:48.

what it has claimed. The The type says that the age of testosterone

:42:48.:42:52.

is decisively over. Well, maybe I just mixed in the wrong circle, but

:42:52.:42:56.

it is not decisively over in my university, it is not decisively

:42:56.:43:02.

over in most work places. We see horrible examples every day, in

:43:02.:43:07.

fact, in the way the day of testosterone is still alive and

:43:07.:43:11.

well. Hanna's point is women necessarily doing things in a

:43:11.:43:15.

different way are picking up the testosterone themselves? You can

:43:15.:43:18.

have a huge amount of social upheaval and things look the same

:43:18.:43:22.

at the top. People say look at the corporate boards. I travel my

:43:22.:43:28.

country and it is a world turned upside down. In very conservative

:43:28.:43:31.

places where people are not feminist, you have a large number

:43:31.:43:34.

of women supporting their families, not because they are feminists,

:43:34.:43:39.

because they have to. I think what you are suggesting in the book, far

:43:39.:43:43.

from being an asset is the man who irons their shirts, men are just a

:43:43.:43:48.

burden in the house? That is what I think, rather brilliantly proven

:43:48.:43:52.

time and again in the book. You get these awful slobs who are

:43:52.:43:57.

exploiting, yet again, the female of the species. I think it is easy

:43:57.:44:04.

enough to cite statistics, and say, look, men's unemployment has risen

:44:04.:44:09.

faster than women'sen employment in the recession. In some ways that's

:44:09.:44:15.

true, but it always negligents the way that -- neglects wait that

:44:15.:44:18.

women are always in the disadvantaged careers. Would you

:44:18.:44:22.

say that through history? They are working part-time, women have

:44:22.:44:26.

always been in those professions that are undervalued, easy to

:44:26.:44:32.

ignore, easy to cut. We can say, these poor old working-class.

:44:32.:44:41.

about the real matriarchyy? It is patriarchy's myth. Every patriarchy

:44:41.:44:48.

has always said, do you know what men, the one thing to fear is

:44:48.:44:52.

matriarchy, most of all, they say once spon a time women ruled the

:44:52.:44:56.

world and made a fright -- once upon a time women ruled the world

:44:56.:45:02.

and made a frightful mess of it. Now they pick up on Hanna and say,

:45:02.:45:08.

women are about to rule the world. That is an eccentric definition of

:45:08.:45:12.

matriarchy, you have large swathes of society where where the women

:45:12.:45:15.

are raising the children and earning the money. I don't think it

:45:15.:45:18.

is a good thing, it is not that pleasant, it means that the women

:45:18.:45:21.

are doing everything and the men are dropping out and not being

:45:21.:45:25.

fathers. There is a chapter in the book with the see-saw partnership,

:45:25.:45:30.

and the see-saw marriage, a 20th century thing, at different times

:45:30.:45:36.

the men are the bread winners and then the women. The Obamas have had

:45:36.:45:39.

that marriage, she was a healthcare executive when she was at law

:45:39.:45:44.

school and then they switched place. Is that a professional thing?

:45:44.:45:50.

is a professional thing. I divide the book between elite college-

:45:50.:45:57.

educated marriages and everyone else's marriages. It is not a

:45:57.:46:02.

triumphalist feminist book, most of it is not good. The poor old woman

:46:02.:46:07.

who falls asleep between floor one and floor four in the book because

:46:07.:46:11.

she was so knackered. Likewise the 40% of the women working in this

:46:12.:46:16.

country are working in low-paid, part-time jobs, they are supporting

:46:16.:46:20.

their families. 20% of families are, and it is thankless. And you know,

:46:20.:46:25.

there might be a certain definition on, which we might call that

:46:25.:46:28.

matriarchy, it is not the definition that makes any sense to

:46:28.:46:32.

me. Who said it was a utopian dream, it just means a sense of control

:46:32.:46:37.

and lack of dependance, that is the big historical shift, women were

:46:37.:46:41.

once dependant on men, now if the men drop out, the women by

:46:41.:46:45.

necessity are independent. What should happen, then, in the rust

:46:46.:46:51.

belt where women are picking up and taking menial jobs, the husbands,

:46:51.:46:55.

having been these big welders, won't do, there will have to be an

:46:55.:46:58.

evolution of these men? Yes, I don't think they are genetically

:46:58.:47:02.

incapable of evolving, there have been many periods in history, after

:47:02.:47:07.

World War II, when the Americans men came back, they went to school,

:47:07.:47:11.

there was the GI belt, it wasn't like they were incapable, they are,

:47:11.:47:16.

it just isn't now. Women are going into things like nursing, in ever-

:47:16.:47:19.

larger numbers, the only trouble is, they are squeezing the women out.

:47:19.:47:23.

Thank you very much. I'm sure we will talk about this long after we

:47:23.:47:28.

come off air. That is it from us in our new home in Broadcasting House.

:47:28.:47:38.
:47:38.:47:50.

From all of us, a very good night. From all of us, a very good night.

:47:50.:48:00.
:48:00.:48:01.

I will be back tomorrow night. On the anniversary of a great storm

:48:01.:48:05.

of 1987, I'm not expecting a repeat performance. It will stay pretty

:48:05.:48:09.

damp across parts of zone Scotland on the far north of England

:48:09.:48:12.

throughout much of the way. Elsewhere sunshine, it will be very

:48:12.:48:19.

windy for a time across parts of the Midlands and central England.

:48:19.:48:24.

Lots of sunshine across the south, temperatures not doing too badly,

:48:24.:48:27.

14-15 grease, the odd rogue shower, dry nearly everywhere, it would

:48:27.:48:31.

have been a very windy start to the day across a good part of Wales.

:48:31.:48:35.

The strongest of the wind will tend to subside later on. It will keep a

:48:35.:48:40.

lot of sunshine going, the odd dot of blue, a few isolated showers.

:48:40.:48:44.

Northern Ireland, after a damp start, things should dry out to

:48:44.:48:48.

some extent, keeping cloud here. Disappointing low cool. It will be

:48:48.:48:53.

a chilly day across Scotland, despite a frosty start.

:48:53.:48:56.

Temperatures not getting high, bleak and damp across Scotland.

:48:56.:48:59.

Further ahead into Wednesday, the weather will not be settling down.

:48:59.:49:04.

More wind and rain spreading across many parts of the UK, from south to

:49:04.:49:08.

north, following in southern areas by something brighter, even then

:49:09.:49:11.

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