17/10/2012 Newsnight

Fixing the energy market, really? David Cameron's announcement to

force companies to put us on lower tarrifs, is surprised even those in

his own Government. Is this a very unConservative curb on capitalism,

and is it even legal under EU competition laws? We will be

legislating to energy companies have to give the lowest tarrif to

their customers. Also, the far right is on the march in Greece,

the leader of the extremist party, Golden Dawn, tells Newsnight of

their rise and support from unexpected quarters. With what they

are saying now, we have more than 50-60% of police staff that are

following us, maybe more. She's the daughter of a former

President, could she also be the daughter of a future one. I asked

Chelsea Clinton if her mother should take a tilt at the top job.

I hope she will get some well deserved rest, and stay off an

aeroplane for a while, I know she will make whatever right choices

are for her. And with the world's growing

population, demand for food has never been higher, is the era of

cheap food over. We discuss with star chef, Yotam Ottolenghi, and

other food industry players, if we need to look to farming methods

some people, up to now, have found unpalatable.

David Cameron was getting a little hot under the collar at Prime

Minister's Questions, perhaps he had been goaded by Ed Miliband's

conference declaration, that he wanted every pensioner over 75 to

pay the lowest energy tarrif. When the Prime Minister announced his

plans to force energy companies to give their customers the cheapest

tarrifs possible, he took some of his colleagues at the highest level

of Government by surprise. It sounds like state planning. But is

this really want he has in mind? Is it even allowed under European

competition laws? Here is our political editor, Allegra Stratton.

Making energy may be a simple chemical equation, but in the hands

of energy companies, its pricing becomes complicated. The problem

remains clear enough. Energy prices are too high, it is a big issue for

politicians. If C equals commodity prices, and W equals flatlining

wages and they are combined, you have a strong political force. The

rising cost of living is an imposing cost, and today, in the

first Prime Minister's Questions of the autumn, the Prime Minister

wanted to get on the front foot, he came up with this striking action.

The Prime Minister's energy summit, he promised faithfully to take

action to help people reduce their energy bills. Can he tell the House

and the country how is it going? have encouraged people to switch,

which is one of the best ways to get your energy bills down, I can

announce, which I'm sure he will welcome, we will be legislating, so

that energy companies have to give the lowest tarrif to their customer.

Something Labour didn't do in 13 years, even though the leader of

the Labour Party could have done, because he had the job.

Only the last week, major energy companies have announced a ramping

up of their prices for this winter. A handful hovering around the 9%

increase mark. SSE is up 9% this A while a at the beginning of the

year in January, the Labour leader proposed something a little similar,

that any Government he formed, would force energy companies to

give the over 75s their cheapest tarrif.

So it seems like there is the scope to do something, but is there the

means. Since the Prime Minister made his surprise announcement

admit day today, it has been incredibly difficult to find

anybody who can explain exactly what he meant. In the huddle

immediately after Prime Minister's Questions, even his own aides

couldn't explain what the Prime Minister meant. One source

described the idea is "daft", another said to me, if it was

brought in the way the Prime Minister suggested, it would be the

end of competition in the energy market.

The problems appear legion. How would companies know when

individuals use energy, in order to be able to tell which tarrif is

best for them. Knew people have a smart metre, and the Government

isn't yet ominousent. Would the companies react by bringing in one

single tarrif, the same tarrif, probably the higher tarrif, to not

miss out. This might mean collusion, some say, in a bid not to lose out.

The department for energy and climate change clarified that the

Prime Minister didn't mean all bills would be pegged to the lowest

tarrif, but instead, different types of energy users would be

given the lowest part of their rate. Some were still aghast at what they

called an economic illiteracy. Low tarrifs are only low because few

people are canny enough to look around, they are subsidised by the

higher amount of people on high tarrifs, low tarrifs for all

upturns the economics. One man who advised the former climate

secretary, Chris Huhne, is not sure that nobbling the energy companies

is the whole way to bring down prices. There are probably things

to do to make the gas and electricity markets more comptetive

and drive down prices. The biggest thing is reducing the reliance on

imported gas, and improving the efficencies of British homes. They

are notoriously inear firt, the Government is bringing in the Green

Deal, it helps you insulate your house at no extra cost to

yourselves and reduce bills. summit was held inside Government

to broker an agreement between the coalition partner, currently

fighting over long-term energy sources. What the Chancellor seems

to be arguing for is more and more gas imports, which are likely to go

up in cost, from probably dangerous and unstable areas of the world. It

seems to make no sense whatsoever. It is clear when the energy bill is

announced in the next few week, it will include action on energy

companies, but we aren't really further on in knowing what. For

those wanting help with their bills, today the Prime Minister has so far

dished out more heat than light. We asked the Government, the Big

Six and the energy regulator, Ofgem to comment on today's announcement.

None wanted to appear on the programme this evening. Labour's

Caroline Flint, is the shadow Energy Secretary, and is here. This

builds on what Ed Miliband announced earlier in the year,

presumably you would vote for it? I'm very interested in anything

that helps people get the best deal. What we know is a huge number of

people could be on a cheaper deal, but because it is so complicated,

with hundreds of tarrif, people aren't switching, switching is at a

lowest level ever. We said we should put those over 75 on the

cheapest tarrif. If they put it in the Energy Bill, that they will

insist companies have lower tarrif, will you support it? The truth is,

as we have heard from the report and other reports this evening,

this policy isn't going anywhere, because the Prime Minister actually

announced a policy, that within ten hours has disappeared. Because it

is impossible, it would be impossible for a Labour Government

as well? It wouldn't be. Would you go back to state control?

wouldn't be impossible for Labour Government to suggest that those

over 75 should be put on the low tarrif. We are interested in more

competition. At the moment we have seen that people aren't getting the

best deal possible. Also the market is dominated by six companies. Can

I finish the point. We need radical reform of the energy market, to

open it up to others who want to retail the energy, make the price

structure more transparent, and ensure we have fair prices. There

is nothing the Government has said about addressing that, either in

the draft energy bill, or announcements before we get the

Energy Bill in a few months time. It is easy for politicians to say

go for the cheapest tarrif, do you know what it is for different

companies? It is a good question, there are hundreds of different

tarrifs. The problem is, as our research found out, we are at the

lowest level of switching ever. We have said we need more transparency,

a simplified tarrif structure something the energy companies are

working on. If everyone switches there won't be low tarrifs, it is

simple economics? In the last two years, with the prices going up, on

David Cameron's watch, prices are up by �200, the profit margins have

been healthy. When the wholesale prices go down, they don't pass on

the cuts to the consumers. whole point of the profit margin,

they say they invest for the future, in order to make sure that in the

future we don't pay higher bills? The way we will get to the bottom

of this, is totally relook at how the market is regulated. We need a

more competitive market. Six companies dominate 99% of the

customer base in the UK. What do we need? A tougher regulator. We have

acknowledged abolishing of Ofgem and a tougher regulator. We need

transparency, so we can see that the companies are investing. We

need to know when wholesale prices go down, they pass on those cuts to

the consumers, just in the same way as they do when they go up. But you

are not preaching what you practised. Point is, under a Labour

Government, wholesale prices came down, and the energy bills didn't

come down. What happened then? have seen, over the last five to

six years, prices, wholesale prices have been going down, that hasn't

been passed on. In the last two years, under David Cameron's watch,

prices have gone up by �200. Wholesale prices came down 27%

under a Labour Government, the bills by 9%? This is why under the

last general election, Ed Miliband said we need to radically reform

the market. We need to ensure on the present arrangements people are

getting the best deal. We need to reform the markets to make it fair.

Is it an ideology or about the consumer, do you want xetsnigs

course we do, do we have competition at the moment. You are

nobbling xet tiing, you can't do that? Talk to some of the energy

retailers, the smaller ones, those who generate as well. They want a

more open market. The energy that is generated should be put in a

pool, and ri retailers competing on a price to sell it to you. We have

energy companies creating energy, buying it from themselves, and

selling it on, there is no transparency. Would you not be

better to go for renationalisation, get rid of the industries you hate,

and have a renationalised energy sector? No, we need a reformed

market, and fairer one, and new tougher regulator that works in the

interest of the market to be competitive, but also the consumer

as well. When extremists are on the rise in

any society, it is the police who enforce law and order. In Greece

today there is increasing evidence that exactly the opposite is

happening. A pattern is emerging where supporters of the far right

Golden Dawn party, which won 18 seats in June's election, violently

target migrants, the left or gay, and the police standby. From Athens,

our Economics Editor has been hearing fears of police collusion

with those trying to bring down the Greek political system. This report

contains strong language. In a small Greek theatre the gates

are locked. Among the actors, inside, rising panic. The manager

is speaking frantically to the Athens chief of police.

Outside supporter of the far right party, Golden Dawn throw bricks and

punches. Their leader, a member of parliament, hurls racist abuse too

obscene to translate. "your time is up, you Albanian

faggot", is the polite version. The performance of the play, Corpus

Christi, goes ahead, symbolically to 20 people. Even days later, the

play's director is stunned by what has happened. What happened that

night, it was like the Kristallnacht, many people they

have called my mother, and they said to her that we are going to

cut down your son in pieces, and bring you a box. Your son will be

in that box. So, it is not a performance any more. It is, do we

have a democracy in this country, or do we have a dictatorship, and

nobody is telling us. If we have a dictatorship, then, then Europe

must do something. The attack on the theatre has

stunned Greece, in the past two months, Golden Dawn support has

surged. Here, its supporters attack migrant stall holders on a market.

It is one of a spate of incidents in which the party's uniformed

activists have begun DIY law enforcement. This is your shop.

This is the man who led the shutdown at the theatre, the de

facto commander of the Golden Dawn attack squads. So policemen might

come here to buy these gloves? The shop he owns sells the

paraphernalia of civil conflict, that is what he intends. Even

though nobody likes this, the Greek society is ready to have a fight, a

new type of civil war. On the one side will there will be, let's say,

nationalists like us, and and Greeks who want our country to be

as it used to be, and on the other side there will be illegal

immigrants and anarchists and all those who have destroyed Athens

several times and Greece. With his party surging to 12% in the opinion

poll, Mr Panagiotaros, one of 18 Golden Dawn MPs, makes no apology

for his attempts to control the streets. Is Golden Dawn at war with

immigrants? Golden Dawn is in war with the political system, and the

people who are representing it. We are in war with demos sick and

international bankers. We are in -- domestic and international bankers.

We are at war with all those illegal invaders. Immigrants?

call them invaders. Of course we are at war, meaning they have

invaded in our country, the state is doing absolutely nothing. They

are just waving a white flag. So, we are against everyone. The Greek

police seem powerless to stop golden dawn. They are engaged in a

round up of illegal immigrant, and scenes like this are now common.

But those attacked by gold claimed police failed to help them. Critics

say there is a reason, and Golden Dawn frank about it. I think with

what they are saying now, we have more than 50-60% of police staff

that are following us. It may be more. Every day it is growing.

this rising tension, anti-fascists have moved from a graffiti war to

action. This motorcycle demonstration was organised on the

30th of September. It led to a clash with Golden Dawn. 15

demonstrators were arrested, and 25 more when it came to court, and

others turned up to support them. Iannis and Maria were detained for

four nights. They don't want to reveal their true identities, when

you listen to their testimony, you can see why. TRANSLATION: They put

me and the other girls, one at a time in a room for a strip-search,

they asked me to bend, to, how can I put it, search me. TRANSLATION:

They told me it take my pants off and show my genitals. Then he

starts hitting me in the face and body, and kicking me too. All the

time they are threatening, things have changed, we will lock you up,

you are all dead, you are in big trouble.

There were obvious conversations just above our heads, they were

openly talking about Golden Dawn and their position, and they were

with Golden Dawn and we have to get that into our heads. By the end of

the four days was there any doubt in your minds that some of the

police were active supporters of Golden Dawn. You are laughing.

TRANSLATION: I'm laughing because I feel in these unit, the Delta Force

unit, it is obvious, also with the officer in charge. They co-operate

openly. The example is that they videoed us, threatening us that our

names would be given to Golden Dawn. At the police HQ, I put these

allegations to a police spokesperson. TRANSLATION:

catagoric, that in this incident none of these things happened in

the headquarters buildings of the police. Greek Police respect human

rights, this is a non-story. These allegations were never made to the

police, no charges were pressed, so the police couldn't look into this

from the start. All the same, if anybody wants to identify

themselves, we will investigate in depth. At night fall, in central

Athens, plain clothes police stage a round up of migrants, arresting

those without papers, some 4,000 have been placed in detention camps

this way. The Government is getting visibly tough, for a reason, to

counter act the rise of the far right, and show the state can do

the job. The Greek Prime Minister recently

compared his country to Wymar Germany, on the eve of Hitler's

takeover of power. And the likes are apt, behind me plain clothes

police are arresting migrants in Athens, but they seem to be unable

to do anything about the violence and intimidation of Golden Dawn.

Many in mainstream politics feel powerless to influence the

situation. And the rapidity of change is obvious. Just two years

ago this square was famous as a place for migrants to hang out.

Today, the children play on a giant piece of graffiti, drawn by Golden

Dawn. When you are the daughter of a former President of the US, and

your mother is Secretary of State for President Obama, either the

world's your oyster, or the pressure to perform is almost

overwhelming. Chelsea Clinton is navigating her way into a career,

and possibly a political future, quite canly, putting her own stamp

on a new initiative in Africa. She has been in Nigeria's capital,

Abuja, and I spoke to her from there. Potentially it is a dynasty

in the making, born when Bill Clinton was Governor of Arkansas,

Chelsea was 12 years old when her father was sworn in as President.

She was largely shielded from the public eye during his time in

office, but now, Chelsea is very much in the limelight. In 2008, she

campaigned on behalf of her mother's bid for the democratic

nomination for the presidency, and she now works as a special

correspondent for NBC news. When she married investment banker Marc

Mezvinsky in 2010, the inevitable media circus led to a conscious

decision to embrace her position in the public eye and put it to good

use. Her parents' investment for charities in the developing world,

has led to support a new initiative in Nigeria, whose Government is

trying to drive down child mortality from preventable diseases.

Can you give me detail about the initiative you are putting about

today? I'm here with the Clinton Health Access Initiative with the

Government of Nigeria, led by President Goodluck Jonathan, who

launched the Save One Million Lives initiative, whereby Nigeria aims to

save one million mother and child lives, by 2015. Currently there are

about a million preventable maternal and child deaths every

year in Nigeria. The vast majority of them are children who perish

from diahorreal diseases and HIV AIDS. We are working with the

Ministry of Health on scaling up ORS zinc, that is what the World

Health Organisation to treat diahorreal diseases. We believe if

we can get to full coverage of the country, we can save 100,000 lives

a year. Do you have any concerns, as an American woman going to

Nigeria, to launch this initiative, in a sense you are allowing Nigeria

to abdicate its responsibility? at all. This is being architected

and will have to be driven and implemented primarily by the

Nigerian minutestry of health, in conjunction with -- Ministry of

Health, in conjunction with global partners and local partners here in

Nigeria. The Clinton Health Access Initiative, particularly hons in

Africa, have you concerns about other American foreign policy

issues, what is happening to women in Afghanistan and Iraq? Thinking

about Africa, tough think about Nigeria, one in four people living

in Africa live in Nigeria. 10% of the children who perish every year

from things like diarrhoea, which no-one should die of in the 21st

century, die here in Nigeria. For me, so much of that is really about

women's right. You mentioned women. I think that fundamentally women

should be empowered to make the right decisions for themselves and

their families, and to have the resources that they need to be able

to be healthy mothers, and to have healthy children, and that should

be true everywhere in the world. wonder what you make of the effort

of the Taliban in Afghanistan, trying to stop women going to

schools, trying to make sure women stay in their homes, how much of a

concern have you about that? think that the effort to stop or

girls anywhere in reprehensible. Whether it's efforts in the United

States, or efforts anywhere on any continent. Certainly, I think what

is happening in parts of south Asia is deeply, deeply troubling. We saw

last week n Pakistan what happened when a 14-year-old girl -- in

Pakistan what happened when a 14- year-old girl was singled out on a

bus and shot, for standing up for girls' education. I know she's in

the UK receiving the care she needs to hopefully regain her health, and

go back to her important work. So certainly it is critical that those

of us who believe that only when we live in a world in which every

person can participate to his or her full potential, is the world we

want to see. You have very definitely found your voice, and

you have said you want to have a purposeful public life. Would that

extend to taking office? You know, I don't know. To take office I

would have to be elected in the United States. I honestly don't

know. Before my mom's campaign in 2008 I would have said no. Not as

the result of any long, deliberate, thoughtful process, but rather

because people have been asking me that question for as long as I can

remember. America loves a dynasty? I don't know about that. But I

certainly feel a strong call to public service. It is why I'm here

in Abuja today. I think there are many ways to serve. I certainly

believe my mother's life is a testament to that. My father calls

her an NGO woman of one, as the era of her life until she ran for

Senate. Watching my mother, and watching many people, many women

like her, who have advocated in civil society and outside

Government, I do believe there are many ways to be a public servant. I

don't really know what the right answer for me will be in the longer

term, for now I'm trying to do the work I can wherever I can in the

world make a difference. I know you have said your mother is vehement

about leaving office after President Obama's first term, if he

wins a second of the I wonder what you would think about her heading

towards the White House herself? want her to do whatever she want to

do. I'm so proud of my mom and everything she does. Someone came

up to me today, I love your parents, and quickly said, I'm so sorry you

must hear it all the time. I hear it all the time and I never tire of

hearing it. My parents every day give me reasons to be proud of the

work they do in the world. For my mom, as her daughter, I hope she

will get some well deserved rest and stay off an aeroplane for a

while, and I know she will make whatever the right choice is for

her in the future, that will ultimately be the right choice for

our family and for our world. In the final film of our special

series oned food, we examine one of the biggest problems of all. De--

on food, we examine one of the biggest problems of all, decreasing

production and increasing demand all round. We have been fooled into

thinking that food was an inexpensive commodity, that was an

old. The search for biofuels and weather problems and wastefulness

are problems. I will discuss this with our guests, but first our

science editor. The modern supermarket is the

epitomy of plenty. Shelves are permanently stocked. The only

queues are at the checkout. But this precarious system now faces

serious pressure points. Over the past few decades, we have all got

used to the idea that we deserve cheap, abundant food, whenever we

want it. But for how much longer can that comfortable model survive.

Is the era of cheap food finally coming to an end.

Lincoln, Nebraska. Where corn is king. The heart of North America,

where the state and the football team are known as the corn huskers.

But the corn belt is at the centre of a crippling drought. This is the

worst drought in 50 years, and we really don't see any end to it. The

spacial area that is being consumed by drought right now in the US is,

we're over 65% of the lower 48 states are in drought right now.

The US drought monitoring service has tracked the spread of drought.

Almost half of all America's counties have been declared

disaster areas. We have had places across the US that their

presiptation record for this year is comparable to the 1930s, or

worse. Crop failures can shape history. Prices are on a

rollercoaster. They are not yet at the high of 2011, when protests led

to the Arab Spring. But they are inching closer to the spike of 2008,

when there were riots in Haiti and Egypt. This is the third spike in

just five years. Rod farms beans and corn, he has seen record

drought. We have only had one rainful. You have been raising the

crops on one rainful. Soya bean yields are down by two third, the

corn yields are down by about a third. There have been droughts in

Russia, Kazakhstan and India as well. And, 40% of America's corn

crop is diverted to create biofuels, finding an alternative to gasoline

has put even more pressure on supply. All that means rising

prices. Looking at soya bean oil, looking at tyfructose syrup from

corn crop, look at the products they are used in, as the product

stays high we will see the impact on the products we use on a day-to-

day basis. It is American football night. The corn huskers face their

great rivals from Wisconsin. For the fan, stocking up before the big

game, most price rises will take a while to enter the system it. But

fluctuations are already hitting the meat markets. Meat will be one

of the main one, meat and dairy product, many of those animals are

fed grain and hey products that are on short sprie supply and prices

are very high. With the price of feed going up, rod Kristallnacht

has had to slaughter early, 10% of his -- Rod has had to slaughter

earlier, 10%. His parents and their parents farmed this land, his

children want to follow in his footsteps. His parents remember the

1930s when the land became a dust ball. At one time it got so dark at

noon from the dust, the folks hit the lamps so we could see the

dinner. You know farmers are used to hardships, we can roll with the

punches, we will survive this, like anything else. The first stage is

the older cows go first, if there are too big cows that take more

feed than the rest of them, they are the ones continuing to go now.

Demand is the other pressure point on prices. Rod's cattle grow on a

mix of pasture and liquid supplement, cattle raised on grain

need seven kilograms to produce one kilogram of meat. Global demand for

wheat is rising as people get richer, demand for grain will rise

in step. On top of that, each year the planet's population grows by

some 70 million. I think we're facing pressures on natural

resources, certainly on land, and on water. The large amount of the

increase in food production over the last 20-30 years, was as a

result of being able to allocate more water for irrigation for

irgated agriculture. Roberto Lenton has advised the UN on using water

for emirbtly in agriculture. He thinks we -- efficiently in

agriculture, he thinks we need to cut the land used for biofuels and

use it for food. You have increasing demands fored food, if

we want to be serious about global warming and climate change, we have

to look at alternative energy sources. Biofuels has all sorts of

implications on food supplies. matters here, the corn huskers have

sold out every game since 1962. Back then droughts were a once in a

generation event. Now scientists warn a long-term rise in

temperatures could make droughts like this summer's more frequent,

even in areas where rainful has been normal. In a changing climate

we need to be more prepared for droughts that are more frequent and

intense. The main thing we have seen over the last several decades

is the temperature component, we have seen that on the upswing.

Nebraska has had a difficult summer, the fans could do with a break.

So what's in play? Many are confident we can still step up

supply, with better use of water and soils. Could we run with the

high-tech approach, genetically modified crop, that perhaps can

better resist drought? We wanted to ask the man who directs Nebraska's

agricultural policy, we found him pitch side. We are already seeing

in Nebraska, that the scenes and technology we have applied to our

crops are helping us to produce more. Our crops are able to use the

water and nutrients more efficiently. We think, as we look

forward, we will be able to identify genes within those crops

that will resist drought, and produce even more bushels under

extreme drought conditions like we experienced in Nebraska this year.

The huskers need a comeback, with ten minutes to go, they are 10-27

down. Time is ticking away. Can supply shortages be tackled with

crop science? Do we use the corn fields to grow more food, or

cleaner fuel? Bust your ass, effort, effort, effort. Or do we wrestle

with the trickier problem of demand. If we are to support more and more

people, we may each have to consume less. And be less wasteful. 40% of

food in the United States alone is never eaten, simply thrown away.

The security of our food system is threatened by restrictions on

supply and ever-increasing demand. And just one knock to that system

can send primes rocketing. But how we increase supply and bring down

demand will require some really tough decisions.

It was a hard night for Nebraska, but they fought back, winning 30-27,

85,000 people went home happy. But it promise to be a tough autumn.

Harvests are down, and unless there is significant rainfall, and then

snow over the winter, next year will be even tougher. With corn and

so I prices edging ever higher, global food security has never been

more vulnerable. To discuss whether we are really at

the end of the era of cheap food is the chef and author Yotam

Ottolenghi, Giles Oldroyd, and self-styled scavenger, Katherine

Hibbert. We are apparently going to need 70% more food by 2050, how

terrifying is that? It is a terrifying figure. It seems like we

are also changing our diet. People are not only eating more, but they

eat more meat. And obvious low that is way more wasteful, we have heard

in the film, how many kilograms of vegtables need to feed a cow. More

and more people throughout the world eat more meat. It is a

changing in diet habit all over the world, in China and India and also

a little bit in the west. But also the fact that we waste so much,

because there is so much thrown away. You just need to look outside

supermarkets or restaurants at the end of the day, it is piles of food

that just goes to waste, and gooded food. Katherine, you are a

scavenger among many things, when did you last scavange? Earlier this

week I went to the artisan bakery, and I found several bin bags packed

with loaves of bread, you have your choi, wholegrain, white, sandwiches,

mozzarella sand wi witches and ham sandwiches. -- -- Sandwiches and

ham sind witches. Did you eat it or hand it around to your friends?

couldn't get it all home, I took some home, the ham to my dog and

shared with my flatmate. What leads to the idea there is so much waste,

that idea? It is the idea of it being there, it is built into the

business models to create that amount of waste. It is perfectly

good food. Completely fresh, made that day. They want to give you the

sense, if you walk in, even as the last customer of the day, the

shelves are full. Does it idea that waste is built in, and that, in

fact, in America, 40% of all food is wasted? Very similar figure in

Britain too. A similar figure in Britain. One of the main things,

presumably, is that we actually don't know how to deal with our

relationship with food, we think it should be cheap all the time, we

think we are entitled to it? have lived through decades of

cheaped food, we had food mountain, it was only 20 years ago we had

mountains of butter and lakes of wine. That has changed, the world

is changing very quickly. The demand for food is going up, and

the challenges for growing food are increasing. There is no-one answer

to the problem. Of course we have to reduce waste, but we also need

to increase productivity. It is a hugele cha eing, and it takes a

multi-- challenge, -- it is a huge challenge and it takes a

multipronged approach. How can we do that? There are many ways. In

the developed world we have to improve the crops we grow, either

using conventional plant breeding or genetically modified. But in the

developing world, like sub-Saharan Africa, the potential it great to

increase productivity, they are getting yields of 20%. That could

be for lots of reasons, the farming not done the way we do in the west,

would you increase that by science or better farming? It has to be

both. There is a lot that we can do right now, just using technology

like fertiliser, better seeds, and getting those to farmers in sub-

Saharan Africa. If you look at the developing world, you see in the

developing world they waste a similar amount of food to what we

do here, that is because of the lack of chill chains and good

storage. If you are storing grain in the field, of course the rats

will eat it. If you haven't a fridge to put your milk in, it will

go off. It might be better to put infrastructure in to deal with that.

As a chef, and you are very influential as a cookery writer now,

are you entirely for natural, as it were, the proubgt it we know, just

through pesticides -- products as we know, just through pesticides,

or do you agree that science has a role to play in this? There is no-

one answer. People probably will need to change their habits, for

various reasons. First of all, it will be too expensive to eat as we

eat now, the prices are going up because everybody wants to eat like

we do. Secondly, because it is not healthy to eat to much meat. There

are various reasons to change our habit, it is not a one-solution

story. You really do need, I completely see the reason why you

want to increase productivity, and why you want to add the scientific

aspect to it. You know, if it wasn't for science, we wouldn't

have tomato, or courgette, or all the wonderful things we have today.

Some gofd, you wouldn't be against that, per-- genetically modified,

so you wouldn't be against that per se? Not persay. At the moment the

industry is in the hand of a few cynical players, it is all about

money. It is very difficult to see how we get out of this circle, and

it is a trap. It is a trap, and it won't only be

solved by waste. Do you have to accept that there might be a case

for science, beyond fertilisers? think if you are having a meal, you

finish what's on your plate before you take a second helping. You

don't, we really have to do the things we can do right now, without

taking risks and I'm not kneejerk against GM and of course science

has brought all sorts of brilliant things. But where we are throwing

away perfectly good food all the time, and more than enough to feed

everyone who is hungry, dealing with that should be the priority.

The point is, you won't educate that mind set before you need to do

something radical with science? is a terrible shame if we have got

into this situation, if that is the case it is a scandal that we have

wasted the era of cheaped food. Food doesn't get the respect it

should, it has been too cheap. The mountain of grain and lakes of milk

has cheapened our attitude to food. There isn't a sense of respect to

food. What has been talked about, for example, is making some kind of

genetic modification that allows corn to be grown with much less

water and sue Septemberability to drought? There are a -- sue

Septemberability to drought? There are lots of problems, some of those

problems, we have the GM crops out there already, drought, salt

tolerance, fertilisers used, pests and path though begins, many people

are working -- path begins many people are working them at the

moment. Don't you think we will lose some of the inherent food

qualities at the moment? Most of the target crops for genetically

modified, are your big commodity crops, they are maize, wheat,

cotton, soya bean, they are not the sort of crops that you worry about

having some old artisan variety. So, you when you talk about food

quality, you are generally talking about your tomatos, your aubergines,

your pomegranates, we will not see genetically modified in those crop,

they are such a small market. Coverage starch fructose is so

unhealthy. -- corn fructose starch is so unhalty, it has no nutrients

in it. Is there a problem for society we expect food on demand,

it is one of the things we take for grant, we expect asparagus from

Peru, strawberries all year round. We make unrealistic demands on the

market, that is about education? Because we are so

disproportionately rich we can make these demands, the upshot is we are

taking this stuff out of the market, and preventing people who are

actually hungry and can't afford to eat properly, from being able to

afford it. If you are saying someone to grow asparagus, where

they could be growing something that could feed a lot more people

without being air freighted ayes cross the world. You are leading to

other people being hungry. When they were talking about respect, it

means there is an element of reference when it come to food that

we have completely lost. We don't think about what we eat, we don't

think about what we put in our mouths. You need to be able to

enjoy it, to understand what is a good bite of food, whether as

tomato, pomegranate or corn. say we eat too much meat, we need

to change our mind, we only think we have had a great meal when we

have a big portion of meat? That is true, it is not black and white any

more. It is not meat-eating versus vegetarianism. People incorporate

more vegtables into their diet. Just time for the papers from

tomorrow morning. First of all..

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 40 seconds

That's all for tonight, Emily is here, from all of us, have a very

Hello, after some particularly wet and windy weather, across the UK on

Wednesday, the prospects for Thursday do see the picture

becoming quieter. The wind easing and many areas seeing some dryer

weather eventually. Northern England, one of the favourite areas

for decent sunshine come the afternoon. The Midland and East

Anglia, perhaps picking up sharper showers, along the east coast the

possibility of some thicker cloud bringing more persistent rain. For

the south west of England, after some morning showers, we should see

a good amount of sun shine, come the afternoon, and also for Wales,

simply, showers in the morning, tending to clear to leave with

brighter spells, feeling pleasant, highs of 13 and 14. For Northern

Ireland sharper showers through the afternoon, generally an improving

picture. Still heavier showers for south western Scotland. Further

north a dry story, still cool, thanks to the Eastleigh breeze. For

Thursday, some rain, but gradually -- easterly breeze. For Thursday,