18/10/2012 Newsnight

Tonight, a banquet of braced veal on a bed of spinach in Brussels,

Molotov cocktail on the streets of Athens. The fate of this nation

will be decided by EU bureaucrat, do they have a clue on how to

prevent social breakdown. There has been a good supply of

teargas on the streets today, what is in short supply is belief in the

institutions of democracy. Also tonight, it is a combishambles,

the Government confirms it will compel energy companies to give

customers their lowest tarrif, they haven't worked out how yet. The UK

has one of the worst breast-feeding rates in Europe, UNICEF says we are

risk problems down the line. We have a roomful of women who for

turning in the bottle has a whole new meaning. Could letters Prince

Charles sent to ministers undermine his role as Monarch, if they do,

isn't it a good reason for letting us see them. We speak town one of

the Prince's closest aides about the importance of being frank.

Good evening, as European leaders, no, let's call them Nobel Peace

Prize-winning representative, converge once more on Brussels,

protests raged in Greece. Today for the second time in two week, 70,000

people took to the streets of Athens, where political anarchy was

king. As petrol bombs and stones were thrown, police responded with

teargas and stun grenades. Today at the 22nd crisis summit in two years,

the EU establishment sat down to dinner. It seldom changes, talks, a

photo, memorandum, and agreement to do more next time. Can anything

stop the social collapse happening before their eyes. Paul Mason is in

Athens tonight. They have been trying to calculate

the impact of austerity, the IMF, its economists have been trying to

look at how badly countries are affected when certain levels of

austerity are carried out. What is happening here today and the past

month adds a new dimension to that. The social dimension, you just

can't calculate it on an Excel spreadsheet. What we are seeing is

far right violence, far right politics, far left violence, and

far left politics. And amid all that, the Greek Government is just

struggling to keep control. Not just of the all-important deficit

reduction plan, and the austerity measures, but of the streets. And

that's what I have seen today. You mentioned the far right there, Paul.

What reaction to the revelations you brought us on Newsnight last

night? The revelations last night were about police connections with

the far right, but in the programme, one of the leaders of the far right

made the statement that there was a civil war in Greece. This has been

wall-to-wall news in Greece all afternoon and this evening. It has

been discussed on all the programme. He's issued a statement saying that

our report was wrong, because we "paraphrased him", as you see we

paraphrased him by putting words in English of what he was saying. They

are not happy with what we have done. Golden Dawn 14%ed today, that

is in the context of a -- Golden Dawn 14% today, that is in the

context of a lot of violence and upheaval in the streets, and a

general strike, as I have seen on the streets today. In Athens, two

years of crisis have taken a bitter economic toll. A thousand people a

day are losing their jobs. The graffiti says "love or nothing".

And here on the street, the main shopping street, which I have been

coming to for two years now during this crisis, there is a heck of a

lot of nothing. So many of the stores are just closed, finished,

boarded up, grat feetied, gone. Across Greece, 30,000 shops closed

last year. Today, those still in business, were on strike.

But the economic crisis is now a political crisis, today's general

strike shut down much of the public sector. Protest has become a way of

life for very ordinary people. As they pass, the dockers, the

shopkeepers, the medical students, they have one thing in common. We

feel they have no way of influencing politics through the

ballot box. This Government was elected on a

platform to renegotiate the bail out. They said that they would try

to get an extension, and that they would try to maintain the country

in the euro. In a way, though, that would be less painful and brutal

for the population. What they are doing ined stead is that they are

announcing now that they will cut salaries, pensions, social services,

the full range of cuts, which is just a continuation of the previous

policy. So people, I think, in many ways, feel betrayed.

The Greek Government has to impose �13.5 billion worth of cuts in the

next few week, but the cuts made already have brought from the

shadows, a new political force. Golden Dawn. Its activists given to

attacking migrants, with massive support amongst serving police

officers. Yesterday, one of its leaders told me this. Nowadays we

are not talking about some normal days in Greece, some how, we are in

civil war, and people who are not, who don't see this, they are like,

how do you call these animal, the ones pulling their head in the sand.

Today, on Greek TV, he denied saying it. But many here believe

the rise of Neo-Naziism, is just a symptom of a wider problem.

political parties, all mainstream political parties, and specifically

the democratic parties, have adapted the main themes of Golden

Dawn, have adopted xeonophobia as a theme, and are pushing people

against immigrants, probably in the hope that they will get those votes

back. But what they are simply doing is encouraging Golden Dawn.

But, today's biggest problem of not Golden Dawn. It was the rapid

breakdown of order that took place once the demonstration reached the

square. The vast majority of protestors,

determined to avoid violence, but they were soon in a world of

teargas, projectiles and pain. (loud explosion)

This is what it feels like to be on the receiving end, when a Greek

demonstration is broken up. It's OK, it's ox.

Once the adrenaline subsides, you see many, very ordinary people,

looking very frustrated and very scared. The Greek Government, and

Greek society have sent the message that the last red lines have been

crossed. And we are in the situation in the euro that we don't

have the luxury of an accident of any kind of accident. And the kind

of accident can be eruption of social unrest, with unpredictable

results. The challenge for democracy in

Greece is very clear. The people behind me are from the Syriza Party,

in the last election, they came within two points of winning the

election. So the people on the receiving end of the teargas, and

the policing, could be the next Government. On the streets of

Athens today, it felt a long way from the Nobel Prize-winning ideals

the European Union was founded on. And a lot like the kind of chaos

that leads to bigger chaos. Soon. Paul Mason with that thought from

Athens. Joining me now from Athens is the New Democracy MP, and I'm

joined by Corbett correction adviser to the President of the

European Council, Herman van Rompuy, in the studio we are joined by a

Greek Professor of economics, and Tracy Corrigan, editor in chief for

the Wall Street Journal. Thank you for joining us, perhaps you heard

the end of Paul's report there, where we see what's happening on

the streets, when we look on the political spectrum of the rise of

the far right, the response of the police, should people have faith in

the political classes there? don't think that there is a

political crisis, and I don't think that Greece is like a civil war.

You know, before I was an MP, before I was elected, I used to be

a world correspond dend, I covered a lot of civil war -- correspondent,

I covered a lot of civil wars, the situation in Greece is not a civil

war, I'm very definite about that. Do you feel confident with what you

are seeing in Greece now? We are applying a very tough and very

severe austerity measures. I think that these austerity measures,

which are going to be introduced in the parliament in the next month,

will be the last ones. So, Greece is giving a very tough fight, in

order to overcome the crisis, and to win the recovery and growth. I'm

sure we will make it. Of course you can see the demonstrations, people

are very angry, are very angry against the Government, but they

are also very angry against the European elite, who applied these

austerity measures in Greece in the last three years. But, in any case,

we hope, and we strongly believe, that in the coming months, the

situation will change. And Greece will be back in Europe as a member

of the European Union within the eurozone, and we will win this very,

very difficult struggle. That European elite, Richard Corbett, is

laid clearly at your feet here? the idea that Europe is imposing

austerity on Greece, I think, has to be taken with a pinch of salt.

Why is the Greek Government cutting spending so much? Because its

levels of debts are so high, that it cannot borrow on international

markets. This is an order of magnitude quite different from

everywhere else, it is quite different from the too-far too-fast

debate in Britain for instance. They cannot borrow. Therefore,

other eurozone countries have lent Greece one of the biggest

international loans ever, in history, and secured a write-off of

existing debt. Without that Greece would be in far, far worse

austerity than it is now. Thanks to the loans from other eurozone

countries, it is bad enough, but not nearly so bad as it would have

been without the solidarity from other eurozone countries. You look

at Greece as an insider and outsider, which of these two bodies

do you see as to blame? Neither, they are as bad as each other. The

European Union has imposed the programme on the company, that is

manifestity unworkable t has imposed tread mendous austerity,

which has made things much, much worse, it has imposed suffering on

the people. And the Greek Government are in cahoots.

think they have imposed? manifesto was undoable. Those who

worked in cahoots with them insisted on imposing it on the

country, and the results are on as you see. I want to get a response

to that, that this was shown to you to be unworkable before it went

through, Richard Corbett? If Greece was not cutting its deficit, and it

doesn't have to do it which cutting expenditure by the way, it could

raise taxes, but if it weren't cutting the deficit, how would

Greece still be able to pay the public sector workers? The

Government cannot borrow money any more on markets, it has had to have

a loan from other eurozone countries. It is through its own

prove livecy of past Greece Governments who fiddled the book

that Greece is in this situation, not the European Union. The rest of

the European Union is help hading Greece by the biggest loan in

history to a country of this kind. Is Greece a place that is open for

business, is this a functioning company now? It is definitely still

sliding downwards this week we had Coca-Cola Hellenic, one of the

biggest companies in Greece, there are few international companies in

Greece, that is the problem with the economy, saying it will leave

Greece. More specifically, the problem at the moment, there is

obvious low help coming from the eurozone, the other eurozone

countries, but Greece just can't get out from this spiral with the

current level of debt that it has got. There is an increasing sense

that some of that debt is going to have to be forgiven again. One of

the things that has been discussed at the EU summit, that started

today, that we have been writing about today, is that there are

discussions again about possibly Greece being given money to buy

back some of its detect at lower prices, and then write it off.

Because otherwise it just can't possibly. To talk about increasing

taxes, we have got rising unemployment, 25% unemployment, and

rising in Greece. When you mentioned, just at the beginning,

Coca-Cola Helenic, this moves its head -- headquarters out, how much

jobs go as a result of that? don't know how many, it isn't a

massive employer in Greece, it doesn't just serve Greece but other

countries as well. It is a sign, that not only are other companies

not invest anything Greece, and it's impossible for Greece --

investing in Greece, and it is impossible for Greece to attract

companies because the labour costs are too high. Even those

established for decades want to get out. When you hear this, and look

at a blue chip company like that saying we don't think we can work

in Greece any more, can you really see that there's light at the end

of the tunnel? We made a lot of progress in the last three years.

We managed to cut our deficit by 25% of our GDP. We applied this

very, very tough and very strict austerity measures. But we still

believe that we can win this fight. And I think that Greece will be a

success story, as Prime Minister, Antonis Samaras pointed out

yesterday in Bucharest, this Greek story will be a success story. I

think that Europe will get out of this crisis much easier if Greece

succeeds and if Greece can make it. We think that in the coming months,

in the coming months, the situation will be much better. You have been

shaking your head at this for the last minute? I admire the

gentleman's optimisim, as an economist, when I look at the

figures, there is not a single thing moving positively, investment

has collapsed, consumption is declining, exports are going

nowhere, the Government is cutting again, there is tremendous

unemployment, there is nothing positive in the country, other than

in the heads of the people who run the Government. This Government,

incidentally, as your programme showed before, was elected on a

completely different ticket to the one it is currently applying. All

this talk about light at the end of the tunnel, is of the same calibre

as the stuff they said before the election. Isn't it that they are

tied more closely to the euro? People are very scared about

exiting the euro, there has been a campaign of misinformation and

terror for ordinary people, about what will happen if they left the

eurozone. They are right to be scared about what happens, whether

they stay in the euro, but also if they come out of euro, interest

would be a massive devaluation of the kuorn circumstance people who

have assets left would -- currency, people who have assets left would

lose 90% of the value of them, there would be 60-70% inflation

rates. This is what keeps Brussels functioning, the fact there is no

alternative for Greece. But this is the 22nd summit in two years. Are

you, maybe, noble -- you may be Nobel Peace Prize winners, but

isn't it faintly ridiculous to discuss the banks, when there is

this kind of social breakdown? is a regular summit meeting, it is

not an emergency one. The European Council does meet six times a year.

It is not extraordinary. Once again, Greece will be centre stage, and

there is a dislocation between...Greece Is not on the

agenda of this meeting. It is not even...The Remaining measures and

adjustments that may need to be made for Greece is by the finance

ministers. There was a great comment by Angela Merkel saying

"this was not a summit for making decisions", in that case, what is

the difference in other summits. Indeed it is not scheduled to be

taking any decision on Greece at all, that is not on the agenda of

the summit. That makes you look even more irrelevant? No, the main

decisions, the huge extra loan given to Greece, and the write-off

of most of the private sector debt, has already been decided. There is

a programme for Greece. There may need to be an adjustment, we will

evaluate that when we have the reports from the IMF and the ECB

and commission. Then then there may be a prolongation of it. It is not

on the agenda of this meeting. Greece needs debt-write-off, and a

lifting of the austerity policy, nothing will work. The social

collapse you have outlined is a very real thing, caused by

unemployment, and middle-class people losing their property, left,

right and centre, this is what is happening in the country. The

middle of the society has been crushed, that is why you get the

phenomena of the right-wing becoming very powerful. This is

what is emerge anything the south of Europe, it isn't just Greece,

Portugal and Spain aren't far off, it is about time the European Union

realised what is afoot. No-one's entirely sure what the

Prime Minister meant to say yesterday in the Commons on gas

prices, but by today his words had become hard policy. Although absent

of any detail of how that policy will work. After cries of Labour of

a shamble, accusations of a U-turn, by this evening David Cameron was

confirming he will be compelling energy companies to give their

lowest tarrifs. We go through a heated 24-hours. It is the time

year when the metre spins faster and millions have to worry about

rising bills. The first politician that promises and delivers lower

energy costs, they could reap a big political prize. And that's what

the Prime Minister seemed to be offering yesterday. Let's do

something that, sadly, we can't do with our metres, let's wine the

clock back, here is what Mr Cameron said in the Commons. I can announce,

which I'm sure he will welcome, is that we will be legislating so that

energy companies have to give the lowest tarrif to their customer,

something Labour didn't do in 13 years. Brilliant, so instead of

trying to make sense of all the different confusing tarrif, the

energy company will have to put you on their best deal. Simple. Except

it is not, for a start, if energy company has to put all its

customers on its best tarrif, in effect, it will only have one

tarrif, now, hands up who thinks the energy company is going to set

that tarrif so they make less money than they do now? Anyone? No?

But luckily, at 8.00am, the Energy Secretary, Ed Davey, was giving a

speech. The Prime Minister's announcement is big news, of course

his Energy Secretary will be able to give us some more details.

Except, here is transcript of the speech, and nowhere in it does he

mention the new policy at all. And, this is confusing. When he was

asked a direct question about the new policy, in a brief interview

that he gave afterwards, he used very different language from the

Prime Minister. The Deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg, announced in

April, an agreement that I negotiated with the Big Six, that

they will have to tell their customers every year what is the

best available tarrif. We have a range of other ideas we have been

working on with the Deputy Prime Minister and Prime Minister, and

others, to help consumers and businesses with their energy bills.

The Prime Minister is referring to those, we will deliver the details

over the next few weeks. Let's recap, shall we, the Prime Minister

said the energy companies will have to give you their best deal. And

this is a new policy. The Energy Secretary says they will have to

write to you and offer you their best deal, but this is not a new

policy s that is already happening. All very confusing, don't worry,

parliament is on the case. The Speaker has ordered ministers to

come and explain to MPs what is going on in, in response to an

urgent question from Labour. This time it was the energy minister

answering all, or rather not answering, really, more reading out

a long-prepared reply, designed to, well not say very much, really.

Following the Prime Minister's announcement yesterday, I'm pleased

to enfirm we will bring forward legislation to help energy

consumers get the best deal. We have already regulated, and have

plans to improve competition, simplifying tarrifs through the

retail market process, and we will improve liquidity and competition

in the wholesale market through the energy bill, in weeks, rather than

months. There are a number of options being considered. Labour

clearly weren't impressed with this response? We all misspeak from time

to time, and the Prime Minister of under a lot pressure yesterday, but

for the Government to spend a day pretending to have a policy they

have no intention of implementing, is no way to run the country. It is

like something out of The Thick of It. There is one more chance to get

a straight answer about what is going on. The Prime Minister's

official spokeswomen answering journalist questions at the morning

loby, we are found -- spokes woman, answering journalists' questions

this at the morning lobby. We found out this morning, but we didn't,

she wasn't answering question. They were to offer their best tarrif in

writing every year, but what they already do. Let's recap. The Prime

Minister said this? We will legislate so energy companies have

to give the lowest tarrif to their customers. The Energy Secretary

said this. They will have to he will their customer every year what

is the best tarrif. The Energy Minister, this. This as complicated

area. The Prime Minister surfaced at a Brussels summit, can he tell

us what he said. Except he jolly well meant what he said, so there.

I meant what I said in the House of Commons, I will with we will use

the Energy Bill coming up this year, so we ensure customers get the

lowest tarrif, that is what we will do. The Government definitely has a

new policy s we don't know quite what it is or quite how it will

work. But the energy bill is being published next month, that will

probably make things clear, won't We did invite a Government minister

to talk about the policy, but they couldn't.

Britain has the dubious honour of being one of the worst countries of

breast-feeding in the EU. One of the countries with the lowest

numbers, performance doesn't come under it. A failure to breast-feed

is not stigma enough. It is a suggestion that those who don't

cost the NHS billions and risking illness. Is it something to feel

guilty, and why do we find it so hard. As all new parents will know,

Newsnight coincides with the last feed. We have three babies, I can

hear them. A little bit noisy here. Thank you very much. In a moment we

will be talking to the three ladies here who have joined me to chair

share some of their experiences of breast-feeding what does today's

report say, firstly. This is a report from the children's charity,

UNICEF and (baby cries very loudly) But the report has been looking at

the economic case for persuading women to breast-feed, and UNICEF

said to me that, one of their aims was to use the economic argument,

because the other methods for persuading women to breast-feed

hadn't really been that successful. What they have done is they have

asked panel of experts to look at the scientific and medical case for

breast-feeding, and not surprisingly they have concluded

there are benefits for both the babies and the mothers. For babies

there is a reduced risk of stomach and breathing and ear infections,

and for women, longer term, there can be a reduced risk of breast

cancer, and all the illnesses cost money for the NHS. If you bring

them down you save money. How does the UK rate when it comes to

breast-feeding compare to other countries. We don't do veryle well.

Especially in duration of breast- feeding. We have one of the lowest

rates of breast-feeding in the world. So while 81% of women start

breast-feeding, by six to eight week, rates have fallen back to

That's despite Department of Health advice that babies should be

exclusively breast fed, if possible, for around the first six month of

life. The top line of this report is that the NHS could save at least

�40 million a year, they reckon, by preventing some of these costly

illnesses, if more women were persuaded to breast-feed for longer,

and given help to do that. So I'm joined now by Rema, Sarah and Hazel

who will tell me a bit about their experiences of breast-feeding. You

are a breast-feeding support worker, was it an easy choice for you to

make? It was, in a bay, I wanted to breast -- in a way, and I wanted to

breast-feed, and knowing the benefit. Having done the job I

wanted to do it myself and relate to how mums are feeding. Did you

learn anything about the process? found out it was difficult, and the

ways that mum felt, now I'm doing the job I'm finding it more

enjoyable because I can relate to the mums and share the experiences.

Sarah, you decided to bottle feed, what led you to that decision?

just assumed most people bottle fed, my mother did, and most people I

knew bottle fed, it was only when I got pregnant and started going to

antenatal appointments I realised I was kind of expected breast-feed,

and most people did. I felt quite a lot of pressure that this was what

was expected of mothers, that we would breast-feed. Did you feel

there was pressure on you to breast-feed? I had chosen to

breast-feed already, I was actually welcoming a lot of the support and

encouragement to breast-feed. But, it did, I was quite conscious of

how little there was about bottle feeding as an alternative. Because

I was always biased one way, it suited me. It was very biased

towards breast-feeding. Thank you very much, back to you Emily,

perhaps a little quieter for the rest of the discussion.

A miracle. Here with me the policy adviser at NCT, involved in that

report, Charlotte Fiarcloth, who studies parenting for the

University of Kent, and Francesca Entwhistle, a midwife and lecturer

in midwifery, and worked with the Department of Health to promote

breast-feeding. Listening to the women, what different

preconceptions of what is expected. In your mind is there a problem if

we are one of the lowest breast- feeding nations in Europe? Probably

what the accounts of the women there show is the current approach

isn't really working. There is a huge drop off of women who are

breast-feeding very, very quickly. I think probably these very one-

sided accounts of the benefits of breast-feeding aren't very helpful.

This approach that breast is best, actually leaves a lot of women

feeling very, very guilty about what they do end up doing, that is

98% of them, which is using formula milk at home stage. Broadly would

you like to see women breast- feeding more? The only reason we

would like to see it is that's what women want, 80 perof women start

breast-feeding, of those -- 80% of women start breast-feeding, and 90%

who stop would want to carry on. It is that support we need. If a woman

gives birth and says I don't want to breast-feed at all? That is up

to her. You wouldn't like to change people's mind? I don't think women

should be under pressure, it is their decision, it is a very

personal decision. There is a lot of factors that come into it. But

women should make their own decisions and be supported in that.

And Francesca Entwhistle, as a midwife, you see women in this very

vulnerable, initial stage, a lot of women are basically not really

taught how to do it. It is made to feel like something that comes very

naturally and it really doesn't, it is a very technical learning curve

isn't it? It is a learning curve, and women don't grow up in an

environment in the UK where they see breast-feeding, they are not

picking up the skills naturally from their parents. You think

because it is literally out of sight? It is out of sight, in many

families, two generations of bottle fed, they are not picking up the

skills intuitively, it is the role of the support workers and midwives

and health visitors to help them overcome the challenges in the

early days. And in the antenatal period to give them information and

support so they can make a real choice. What the evidence suggests

is women need face-to-face support. They need to know when they will

get that support. Why isn't that just built in to the very first day,

when a woman's given birth, that someone comes around and shows them

what to do. That is missing at the moment? It is built in to the

infrastructure, and what this report and what a lot of other

reports are showing, is that we need to keep training the midwives,

and retraining midwives. I myself trained 30 years ago when things

were very different. They have improved dramatically, but we are

making progress, and we have gone from up to 81%, since the last

infant feeding survey, but women are still not continuing. We need

to put more infrastructure in, commission more services, so women

don't feel guilty, and they can make a real choice. Do you believe

it does contribute to infant illnesses, a lack of breast-

feeding? My concern is that often these report, as I say, they are

very one-sided, they take statistics which are actually, some

of the research that is used, the data is a lot more uncertain than

these reports suggest. Quantifying benefits to the NHS in ten, 15

years time. The evidence around gastroenteritis infections more

secure, but things like obesity and cancers is very unstable. Putting

these amounts on it, and making women feel like they are costing

the NHS X or kwhr., -- Y, I don't think that is helpful. I know you

say it is not directed at mothers, it ends up on programmes like this,

mothers watch Newsnight and mothers read newspapers. Governments need

to know that investing in breast- feeding will save them money. At

the moment everything is being cut back, we need the H NHS and local

authorities to know. There is a lot spent on breast-feeding information

in the past. Will help, babies will be sick less often, mothers will be

sick less often, and more importantly they will do what they

want to do. If they get the report. When you phrase it in the way of

stopping a waste of money to the NHS. There are millions of ways you

can save �40 million on the NHS every year. This is one thing. And

it helps reduce inequalities in society. Because we know that women

with the lower income and less education are less likely to

breast-feed, it is those women who need the most support. I'm sorry to

interrupt. That is the kind of talk you don't like? As a feminist, yet

again, poor women, women with less education are being blamed for

wider social inequality. Things like class, education, you know,

breast-feeding is not a magic bullet, you can't breast-feed your

way to being middle-class. Breast- feeding has been fits, breast fed

children tend to be healthier. is a simple thing, that it costs

less money to breast-feed it comes from you. Somebody else can't do it.

It costs time for bottle feeding too. It is not just about saving

money from the NHS, we can invest that back in for women to have real

choice. At the moment women stop bread feeding and go to bottle

feeding because they can't solve the problem and they are not

getting the support they need. If we empowered them and gave them the

self-confidence and self-efficacy to overcome those problems and get

solution, if they want to go on and bottle feed and partially breast-

feed that will be their choice. Would you go a step further, you

talk about a woman's time, it is not just the responsibility of the

mother to be the feeder? Well, yeah, and particularly, let's just

imagine, I know it is a classic thing that feminists would say, if

it were men would you say to them you ought to breast-feed for 18

months to reduce your risk of cancer and save the NHS money.

men breast fed they would get all the support they need and sit

around in bed all day. I'm a feminist and I don't like that

women don't get enough support, they get inconsistent advice, that

is inexcusable wrecks know how to help women breast-feed, they are

not getting the help. It won't come as a vast surprise

that the heir to the throne holds a lot of opinions about a lot of

things. Many of them have been openly and frankly expressed, many

leaked. This week the Attorney General explains his reasons for

not publishing letters from the Prince to Tony Blair's Government.

Tonight we asked one of the Prince's closest aides for decades,

if political neutrality in a Monarch matters?

It could be decades away. But at some point we will see a different

face on our stamps and bank notes. What do we know about the future

King Charles III, about his political views, the way he plans

to use his power and influence. problem is that I can't resist

trying to find a way of doing something about many of the

problems that I come across. If you want a quieter life, lock me up.

This week, the Attorney General stepped in to block the publication

of 27 of the Prince's memo, sent to Labour ministers some years ago.

The called Black Spider letters, named after his distinctive

handwriting, are said to be particularly frank and full of

deeply-held personal beliefs. But, after a seven-year fight by the

Guardian newspaper, the full contents will remain secret. That

veto overturned a decision last month by a High Court judge. The

Attorney General said the publication of those memos could

stop ministers talking openly with the Prince, as he prepares to

become king. And it could undermine his position of political

neutrality. Unofficially we already know about the Prince's views on a

number of subjects. This former special adviser to two Labour

ministers says he had firsthand experience of some of those letters.

I remember one particular incident from when I was working at the

Department for Communities and Local Government. The Secretary of

State had given a speech about model communities, and had

mentioned Poundbury, Charles's model village in Dorset. She was a

bit disparaging about it in a throw-away remark. Within a day or

two, a handwritten letter arrived into the office, with the fleur de

lis in the corner, inviting her to visit Poundbury and see for herself.

That was particular taken up afterwards. If you or I had written

a letter to the Secretary of State to visit our pet scheme, it is

unlikely it would go to the top of the pile or get a visit so fast.

The Prince has been ayes cuesed in the past for using his influence to

interfere in other areas of public life. He wrote to the Qatari owners

of this development in Chelsea, calling for the whole original

design to be scrapped, the man behind that design, Lord Rogers,

ayes cuesed the Prince of abusing his power, and wrecking two years

of his work. Then there have been forthright

views, publicly expressed, or quietly leaked, on topics from

hunting to youth unemployment, to environmental policies. He says

it's his duty to communicate some of those views, privately, to

public official. I could have, couldn't I, have sat doing very

little indeed. And I would have been got at just as much by people

saying what a useless idiot he is. You know, what contribution is he

making. I would rather, at the end of the day, if one has to go

through all this, be criticisedor doing things, rather than not --

criticised for doing things rather than not doing them. Some say some

of the Prince's actions look like direct lobbying, designed to change

Government policy, that, they say, is undemocratic. I don't think

anyone doubts that there is anything wrong with Charles having

a range of political views and causes he cares a great deal about.

The question is the secrecy is the way he lobbies on behalf of these

causes and campaign, and the letters will be kept secret, and

the public will never know whether or not the Government changed the

mind, whether public money was spent, whether decisions were

altered, as a result of Charles's lobbying.

A recent change to the law means royal letters written today are

even less likely to get into the public domain. So, any more of

those private thoughts, scrawled in black handwriting, are likely to

remain just that, private. We can speak now to Dame Julia

Cleverdon, special adviser to the Prince's charities. She has worked

for Prince Charles for the last 20 years, and Nick Cohen, the

columnist for the Observer. Thank you both for coming in. I guess he

is clearly a man with plenty of views, and proudly so. Do you think

we want an heir to the throne with views? I think we want an heir to

the throne who has spent most of the last 35 years trying to

understand some of the key issues which face Britain in the

communities that he will seek to serve. So I think if we look at his

work across an absolute range of issues, whether we are talking

youth unemployment, or responsible business behaviour, or what do we

do with 100 redundant hospitals, this man has given his life,

actually, to understanding what the issues are, that he can do. At what

point is that meddling? You can organise if it is meddling or

mobilising. I would suggest that most of what the Prince of Wales

has done, has been to try to mobilise to make things happen,

through charities, through the business world, through communities

.% of all young people, who are not in education, employment and

training, are going through the -- 7% of all young people who are not

in education, employment and training are going through the

Prince's Trust this year, that is a contribution to the nation. You can

call him a useless idiot, he says, but he would prefer to be somebody

who did something than didn't? depends what you mean by do. What

happened was the Information Commissioner, who fully accepts

that Prince Charles's private views and business should be kept out of

the public domain, was looking at direct lobbying of the Government.

He said the Prince's attempts to say this wasn't political weren't

credible, whatsoever. He said they made no sense. These were political,

often on party political matters. We know what little that has leaked

has been his attack on the Human Rights Act. Although I agree very

much with Julie that some of the work he does is fine, and non-

political and very good. Some are pernicious, and on alternative

health, quack medicine, which he is constantly bombarding the

Department of Health to keep homeopathic hospital over. I can't

see the objection to knowing about this? I think it is absolutely

clear that Governments of all persuasions have decided that the

Queen's letters, the Prince of Wales's letters, and the Duke of

Wales's letters should not be in the public domain. The Prince of

Wales does 600 engagments a year. He wants to change mind, that is

the point of the letter is to change the mind of those with

influence? It is to take the views and experience he has picked up, as

he moves around this country and other countries, on things that he

believes to be the interests of Britain. He has an absolute right,

I would have thought, to use that experience, to pass that

information on, to do, where he can, the things he can to make more

difference to Britain. Do you really think that Tony Blair would

have changed a policy on the back of something that Prince Charles

wrote to him in a letter? We are not allowed to know, that is the

first point. And the Government has gone to great efforts to make sure

we don't know. On the whole politicians are rather frightened

of Royals. They are frightened of having an argument with them. They

are frighten the media will take the Royal Family's side. There was

an example this week, when Jeremy Hunt makes a perfectly civil

comment to the Queen and they were rather rude to them. How do you

know that, talk to David Blunkett and many of the ministers who know

the Prince of Wales and worked with him, they would say, actually they

value his views. You see it is a bit, Baroness. I'm not a Baroness.

Nothing like one. Nothing like one. It is a bit odd of you to support a

system of secrecy and say how do you know that, prove it. He's one

of the least secretive people there is, he is frank what he believes,

he founded 20 charities, what more can he do. Would he publish his

views himself? Read the speeches. They are very clear what the Prince

of Wales believes about how they can make a greater difference.

wouldn't have a problem, if they are all in the speech, he wouldn't

have a problem that they come out? It is a Government responsibility

and decision, this is not the Prince of Wales's, he didn't take

the case. Let's get the fact on the record, you are saying as one of

the Prince of Wales's advisers he would be happy for the Black Spider

to be released. I have a fantastic -- Black Spider letters to be

relyed. I have a fantastic number of Black Spider memos from the

Prince of Wales, four this morning. What is talked about, particularly

between the Monarch herself, and the Prime Minister, whatever goes

on, in that conversation, something intensely private, and gives the

person in power, the Prime Minister of the day, enormous confidence, do

you not respect that? If you look back to the present Queen, when she

was the heir to the throne. There is nothing like what has been

happening with the Prince of Wales. She was on the throne at the age of

23. If you look at the information commissioner's website, I hope do

you it, they are so concerned about his behaviour, they have produced a

20,000 history of political interventions going back to the

1970s. Not party political. In an interview with Vanity Fair, they

say his parents might have brought him up to stay out of politics, he

said he wouldn't listen to it. this something the Queen wouldn't

do? The Prince of Wales is the longest-serving Prince of Wales we

have ever had. He has spent the last 35 years trying to prepare,

support and understand the things he can do to mobilise and make a

greater difference to the things he believes are important to Britain.

Thank you both so much. We have run out of time. That's all from us

tonight, I will be back with another round of delights tomorrow.

Good evening, one way another, Friday could potentially get off to

a grey start across many parts of the UK. We are looking at some

stubborn mist and fog for northern England, the Midlands and the south

west of England. Cloud bringing further outbreaks of rain into

Scotland and Northern Ireland. East Anglia and the south-east of

England will struggle with thicker cloud and outbreak of rain for much

of the day. Perhaps not just for Friday, but on into the weekend as

well. Thanks to a weather front that never quite clears off into

the continent. The south west of England and Wales should brighten

up nice low for Friday afternoon, eventually temperature -- nicely

for Friday afternoon, temperatures reaching 14. Cooler where mist and

fog linger. After a grey start, Northern Ireland should see the

cloud breaking through the second half of the day. Highs of 11 or 12

in the sunshine. The far North West of Scotland gets sunshine, but the

central lowlands will struggle with cloud and rain. Sunshine for Friday

in Inverness, Edinburgh rather cloudy, school at 9 degrees. The

prospects for Saturday look dry and brighter for Scotland and Northern