24/10/2012 Newsnight


24/10/2012

In an exclusive report from inside Syria, Tim Whewell meets members of the Syrian Free Army. With Jeremy Paxman.


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Transcript


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Tonight we're in what they call Free Syria. President Assad's

:00:16.:00:19.

forces have been driven out, Sharia courts are in operation, and some

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how the regime's mayor is still in office. A citizen militia patrols

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the streets, a everyone lives in fear of bombs from the sky. The

:00:30.:00:36.

west promises non-lethal help for the rebels, but will that stop the

:00:36.:00:40.

Islamic spring turning into a Islamic winter. Mortgage it goes on

:00:40.:00:47.

the more extreme people will become. It is up to the rest of the world

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to help us get rid of Al-Assad. guests join us, including former US

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Defence Secretary, Paul Wolfowitz. Jimmy Savile was never brought to

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court. Should the authorities pass on suspicions, even if they don't

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think they are strong enough to secure a conviction. We speak to

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the Spanish author, what mass made his childhood cancer a star of his

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fiction. Are there positives to be gained from suffering a terrible

:01:18.:01:24.

illness. I lost a lunge, a leg and some of my liver, this was also a

:01:24.:01:34.
:01:34.:01:35.

happy time for me. We will talk about how to live with cancer. It

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looks as if there will be a break in fight anything Syria this week.

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The mediator was talking about a ceasefire tentatively for the

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Muslim festival of eed. It doesn't intricate Eid, it doesn't Light

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Bashar Al-Assad -- indicate that Bashar Al-Assad will fall.

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People tend to concentrate on the blood, the anger and the weeping,

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what is it like to live there? Our reporter has just spent the best

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part of a week in a town in the north of the country. Where did you

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go? There is a whole swathe of countryside in northern Syria,

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along the Turkish border that is rebel controlled, as far as Aleppo,

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there has been intense fighting for the last couple of mooints. There

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is one border post -- months. There was one border post near Kilis,

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where you can get your passport stamped with "Free Syria". We went

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there and tried to find out how the rebels are running their territory

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and find out what kind of Syria they want in the future. We went to

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:02:55.:02:55.

the down of Mare' ao, Marea, it is the home town, one of the first

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cities to demonstrate, and the home to one of the commanders in Aleppo.

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This is what we found. Welcome to Marea, a small town at

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war. There is bravado, and real heroism here.

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Death, so frequent they dig the graves in advance. A numbing fear

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of the enemy in the sky. And a very good pastry shop, the

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story of Marea's liberation from tyranny, is drenched not only in

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blood, but also in syrup and honey. These sweets were the death of

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regime soldiers who stole them on April 10th, their last day in the

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city. TRANSLATION: When the army became,

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my brother and friends decided to put poison into the sweets. And the

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soldiers who ate them died. The people of the city are proud of

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what we did, we even became famous because of it. That day the city

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burned, hundreds of houses and shops, set alight by phosphorus

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grenades, hurled by Government troops. They ransacked the homes,

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looted whatever they could, and rode away on their tanks, never yet

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to return. It was left as a dusty island of

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freedom. To plan its own future. 19 months on, the Syrian uprising

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remains strangely faceless. With no clear overall leadership, and many

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feel, no clear aim beyond the overthrow of President Assad. I

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have come to this liberated town to try to discover who is fighting and

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what they are fighting for. Guarding the city, and ruling it,

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are the rebels of the Free Syrian Army. They are led n this town, by

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a former electrician, wounded in the battle for Syria's second city,

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Aleppo. TRANSLATION: I was shot by a machine gun, the bullet went in

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my back and out by my stomach. men are poorly armed with what they

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can capture from the regular army. Machine guns like this unlikely to

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bring down a plane. Their power comes from the charisma of

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commanders like this. He built this battalion from a

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group of friends. Like him, they are mainly poor men, a farmer, two

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tailors, a blacksmith, two teachers. And they are fighting, not just for

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freedom, but for social justice. Not just against Al-Assad, but

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against a whole urban class in Aleppo, who have backed him.

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All lack Akbar! TRANSLATION: Most of the rich people, their business

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is running well, they have connections and grown prosperous

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with the regime. What will happen to those people in the future?

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TRANSLATION: They won't stay in Syria afterwards, they will run

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away, of their own accord. And these men don't want to be

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robbed of the fruits of victory when the war is over.

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TRANSLATION: The leadership will be made up of people inside Syria, we

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won't accept some exiled opposition figure, who sits in five-star

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hotels, while people are fighting on the ground. We lost brothers,

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uncle, do you think we will let people living outside come back to

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rule us, no. We have a saying, "the land is for

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those who work on it". But for now it is the regime that

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still rules the skies. At any sign of a plane, all eyes turn upwards.

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This is the random destruction the jets bring. Increasingly unable, or

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unwilling to commit ground forces to the fight, the regime's

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resorting to indiscriminate aerial bombardment. The aim is simply to

:07:03.:07:08.

sow terror. This was one of the secondary

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schools, closed, like most schools here, for more than a year. By it

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was still intact until a bomb hit it. TRANSLATION: The fighter jets

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attacked, then they went away. Then they came back and attacked again.

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They had the school on both sides. At the cemetery, I meet a man

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coming to tend the grave of his son. TRANSLATION: My son was with five

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or six friend, loading potato on to a truck. A MiG 23 dropped two

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barrels of TNT on to them, five were killed. The oldest of them was

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just 16 years old, three others had their legs and arms blown off. Were

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they terrorists? No. The only terrorists are Bashar Al-Assad and

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his friends. I won't even call them unbelievers. They are worse than

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animals. Behind us another funeral is

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beginning. Today they are burying a man hit by machinegun fire from a

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plane, as he drove his car through the town. Suddenly the mourningers'

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attention turns from earth to sky, far off a helicopter is approaching.

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Until it eventually changes course, they too are threatened with death,

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they are spared this time, perhaps not the next. This man grew up in

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the town, moved abroad, and returned last year to join the

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revolution. He thinks the town is being punished for the activism.

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is an act of revenge, it was one of the first cities to demonstrate and

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kept protesting all the time. It is an economic work too. To punish

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people for demonstrating. That's me, in 1983. I used to be

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the captain. Three decades ago when he led the town's football team,

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the regime seemed impregnable. Now civil war has torn through friends

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who were once provincial chap I don't knows. -- champions. He's the

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mayor right now. He's a strong supporter of the Ba'ath Party, this

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guy too, he's a major from the army, in the army. This guy works for the

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intelligence, political intelligence office. He's on the

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other side. And he's still on the other side. In the Town Hall,

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extraordinarily, his old team-mate is still in office. Much to his

:09:49.:09:59.
:09:59.:10:38.

The mayor is allowed to stay, for now, because of his connections. He

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can phone Government authorities in Aleppo, and get salaries or fuel

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delivered across the frontline. But does he still really believe in

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President Assad? TRANSLATION: Bashar Al-Assad is a democrat, he

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loves his people, though he may have changed now. But after he took

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power, he made a lot of reforms. Workers, salaries went up from

:11:03.:11:09.

4,000 Syrian pounds to 25,000. are not afraid to say that, when

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President Assad's planes are bombing this town? TRANSLATION:

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Personally I feel scared for my people, my wife and my children.

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But we are stuck between two sides. The planes that fire

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indiscriminately killing women and children, and on the other side,

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the FSA, which has nabbed my son, both sides are oppressing us.

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In the city, poor, rural, entirely Sunni Muslim, few others are so

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ambivalent, though many are down the road in Mitcher, more mixed

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Aleppo. Small towns like this -- richer, more mixed Aleppo. Small

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towns like this, old fashioned pious town, where women are rarely

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glimpseed, have had to take the fight to the big city. That may

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only make the city fear the uprising all the more. This remains

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a deeply conservative Islamic society. Even after more than 40

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years of rule by the secular Ba'ath Party. But not all Syria is like

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this. And many are afraid that if and when the regime collapses,

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another fight will break out, as one part of the country tries to

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impose its values on others. The proceedings in this dark room

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offer perhaps a glimpse of Syria's future. Rarely filmed before, this

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is rebel justice at work. A revolutionary committee of civil

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lawyers and Islamic law experts. They are trying three suspected tea

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smuggler, brought in by a rebel soldier.

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Eventually the suspects are provisionally let off, after

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swearing on the Koran. Minor disputes have long been dealt with

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like this. But will Islamic practice now become more important?

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TRANSLATION: Sharia Law should come first, because Sharia is a form of

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justice, that has proved itself for 1400 years. But we should graft

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other laws on to it, to make it suit all communities, including

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minorities. In this town, it certainly feels as if the FSA

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belongs to the people. There is no sign here of the foreign Islamist

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fighters the west is increasingly concerned about. These rebels say

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they have no Islamist agenda themselves. Syria will stay as

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multiconfessional as it has always been. TRANSLATION: God willing,

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after the regime fall, we will all work together in love and

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brotherhood, Christians, Kurds and even Alawite, at least the good

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ones. We hope they will listen to what we are saying and join us.

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western powers won't help, because they don't believe that.

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TRANSLATION: We get very little outside support, no humanitarian

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aid or weapons, like the media claims, only God is with us.

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TRANSLATION: Everyone is against the Syrian people, only Turkey and

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Saudi Arabia and the gulf states are on our side. Firstly, we want

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God to help us, then those countries. Won't those countries,

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those Arab countries, demand a political price for their support,

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won't they try to change Syria? TRANSLATION: No, no, they are

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trying to help us, because we have been oppressed for 40 years,

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because we are poor, that's all. They don't expect anything in

:14:52.:15:02.
:15:02.:15:06.

return. But the rebels belong now to the Taheed Brigade, a wider

:15:06.:15:12.

group that led the revolution. Many think it has Islamist sympathies.

:15:12.:15:19.

As long as the FSA has no overall command structure, it is the best

:15:19.:15:21.

armed groups that will become the most influential. Since his return

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last year, he has seen the revolution grow from a baby into a

:15:25.:15:29.

fighter. Now he fears that if the west stays out of the fight, it

:15:29.:15:34.

will turn into something uglier still. The longer the conflict goes

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on, the more extreme people will become, it is up to the west and

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the rest of the world to help us get rid of Bashar Al-Assad, so it

:15:41.:15:46.

will be OK, or it will take a long time, and more people will get

:15:46.:15:50.

killed, and people will become more extremist. For the west staying at

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the side, not helping, that is creating extremists.

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The matter tomorrowdom of the dead, more than 50 since the upRoyceing

:16:00.:16:06.

began. It is sell -- the martyrdom of the day more than 50 since the

:16:06.:16:13.

uprising began. It dwells relentlessly on the barbarity of

:16:13.:16:17.

the fight. How long can post-war reconciliation survive images like

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this. Even if in war, the town goes about the old-age occupations,

:16:24.:16:33.

farming and trading. But it is still digging graves, for victims

:16:33.:16:40.

yet unknown. Here to discuss this now, two

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British-based Syrian activists, Rim Turkmani, from Building the Syrian

:16:45.:16:55.
:16:55.:17:03.

State. And Al-Assad -- Abdul-kader al-Saleh, who has many contexs, and

:17:03.:17:08.

Paul Wolfowitz from the US. Do you see the free Syrian army becoming

:17:08.:17:13.

increase league radicalised? Yes, this is something we are afraid of,

:17:13.:17:17.

the longer the struggle goes on, as the gentleman said in the report,

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the easier it will be more people to be radicalised, and they might

:17:27.:17:31.

have their allegiance bought. Presumably it is in the west's

:17:31.:17:37.

interests to have the conflict shortened? If this had ended a year

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ago Syria's prospects would be much, much better. It is quite bleak, all

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the bad things that were supposed to be resolved because of our

:17:46.:17:50.

providing weapons to the opposition are happening precisely because we

:17:50.:17:54.

are not providing weapons to them. The conflict is dragging out,

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people resent and hate the we. Countries that don't share our

:17:59.:18:03.

democratic values are in the lead on deciding who gets weapons, that

:18:03.:18:06.

is not a good thing either. What do you feel would be the consequences

:18:06.:18:12.

of western military aid? First of all, it is not a solution. Any aid

:18:12.:18:18.

that is military aid, armed aid, is not a solution. It is only

:18:18.:18:21.

increasing the bloodshed and radicalising people. It is bringing

:18:21.:18:24.

tougher and tougher confrontation from the regime as more people are

:18:24.:18:29.

dying. You don't think it would speed a resolution one way or the

:18:29.:18:35.

other? It won't work, it is arming for some time now, the US is doing

:18:35.:18:39.

it in a different way, Turkey is doing it, I have seen the weapons

:18:39.:18:43.

going, it is not working, is it? think it is in the best interests

:18:43.:18:49.

of regional powers to keep everyone at the same level of strength, at

:18:49.:18:55.

least militarily, so the rebels aren't getting enough weapons to

:18:55.:19:02.

deal the regime a final blow, and the regime can't, the term they use,

:19:02.:19:08.

to clean the country of rebels. The people paying the price for the

:19:08.:19:11.

stagnation are the civilians, people bombarded on a daily basis.

:19:11.:19:15.

Is the character of the rebels changing? It is changing, but also

:19:15.:19:19.

the fact that we are only talking about the rebels, you know, that is

:19:19.:19:24.

the issue here for me. Because most of the Syrians now are against the

:19:24.:19:28.

regime. Even Aleppo, one the people in the programme said the people in

:19:28.:19:32.

Aleppo actually supported the regime. There was a beautiful civil

:19:32.:19:36.

society movement inside Aleppo, including the work union, or trade

:19:36.:19:39.

unions, they were moving against the regime, but not through arms,

:19:39.:19:45.

not necessarily through demonstrations. Forcing the city

:19:45.:19:49.

into armed conflict is a crime, to me. And it is making things worse,

:19:49.:19:55.

it is bringing radicalisation, and what one of the speakers talked

:19:55.:19:58.

about is the issue of the countryside against the city.

:19:58.:20:02.

Wolfowitz, do you have a clear understanding of the character of

:20:02.:20:07.

the Free Syrian Army? I think none of us do, but you know that's

:20:07.:20:10.

actually another argument for providing them with more material

:20:10.:20:13.

assistance, we would have a much clearer idea. But it is really

:20:13.:20:16.

important to emphasise this uprising, first of all, it wasn't

:20:16.:20:21.

started by the west, it was an uprising by the Syrian people, and

:20:21.:20:26.

it began for quite some time in a non-violent way. It was really

:20:26.:20:32.

moving to see these unarmed Syrian civilians facing the weapons of Al-

:20:32.:20:36.

Assad's regime. But the goal here isn't here to level the battlefield.

:20:37.:20:40.

With all due respect to your earlier speaker, and I understand

:20:40.:20:43.

his sentiment, at least it shouldn't be so uneven. But the

:20:43.:20:47.

goal really should be to persuade the people who are fighting for Al-

:20:47.:20:51.

Assad that they are fighting for a losing cause, and to encowering

:20:51.:20:55.

andage his army to abandon him -- encourage his army to abandon him

:20:55.:20:59.

as soon as possible. I think we are probably past this point, but some

:20:59.:21:02.

time ago, maybe he could have negotiated a peaceful departure.

:21:02.:21:07.

But the longer this goes on, every passing week, the prospects for

:21:07.:21:13.

Syria's future get lower and lower and lower. What is a post-Al-Assad

:21:13.:21:17.

Syria going to be like? You can't generalise, in the south we don't

:21:17.:21:20.

have the same problems that they suffer in the north. Because we

:21:20.:21:26.

have a tribal system that can operate in the absence of the state.

:21:26.:21:30.

In Aleppo the battle was actually brought to them into the city by

:21:30.:21:32.

the suburbs or the countryside. They don't have the same knowledge

:21:32.:21:37.

of each other, and they do not relate to each other, the way we do

:21:37.:21:42.

down south in the tribal-based societies, such as in my city,

:21:42.:21:46.

Deraa. What do you think a post-Al-Assad

:21:46.:21:50.

Syria will be like. There are many people who say it won't be a

:21:50.:21:55.

unified country any longer, it will be all kinds of things kicking off?

:21:55.:22:00.

It all depends on the route we take to overthrow the regime. We want to

:22:00.:22:04.

overthrow the regime, but if we do it through military intervention or

:22:04.:22:07.

armed conflict, we are not looking at a democratic or unified Syria.

:22:07.:22:11.

If it turns into civil war, yes, we are likely to have a deed vieded

:22:11.:22:17.

Syria. If this becomes more -- divided Siria. If this becomes more

:22:17.:22:21.

radicalised, we might have Islamic radical rule, but not Syria. It all

:22:21.:22:25.

depends on the route you take. The regime confronted peaceful uprising

:22:25.:22:30.

with arms, so people defending themselves, and some how outside

:22:30.:22:33.

groups exploited that and threw more arms into it, and started

:22:33.:22:36.

buying loyalty and buying people's needs for food and for arms. That

:22:36.:22:41.

made things even more complex. The west was always reluctant to take a

:22:41.:22:46.

very clear position. It became an international conflict, not a

:22:46.:22:50.

Syrian one. Paul Wolfowitz, there were very few who previbgted that

:22:50.:22:54.

the Arab -- predicted that the Arab Spring in Egypt turned out the way

:22:54.:22:58.

it is turning out now. There are multiple examples of the west, your

:22:58.:23:02.

country and others, arming insurgent groups, like the

:23:02.:23:06.

mujahideen in Afghanistan, and in the end, what you get isn't

:23:06.:23:13.

precisely what you set out to get? There are many example, most of

:23:13.:23:18.

what we are seeing now in Bosnia, where for three years we imposed an

:23:18.:23:23.

arms embargo on a more or less defenceless Bosnian, finally we had

:23:23.:23:27.

to intervene militarily, with tens of thousands of western troops to

:23:27.:23:32.

rescue them. I think the failure in Afghanistan, more than anything

:23:32.:23:38.

else, is when the society left we forgot about the place and

:23:38.:23:40.

abandoned it. That was a huge mistake. The situation in Syria is

:23:40.:23:48.

where it is, we didn't create it. If you ask the Syrians to oppose

:23:48.:23:54.

this regime. It is a formula for his staying in power, it is hard to

:23:54.:23:57.

see that is a good outcome for anybody. You could see a civil war

:23:57.:24:01.

going on for years, couldn't you? That is why I think the soon they

:24:01.:24:06.

are regime goes, the better. It is going to be a terrible mess, there

:24:06.:24:09.

is no question about it. It would have been less messy if the regime

:24:09.:24:15.

had ended a year ago. In Libya, to some extent, we are seeing the

:24:15.:24:17.

consequences of a protracted revolution that went on for over a

:24:17.:24:22.

year. And interestingly, at least there the population is very pro-

:24:22.:24:26.

western, because they know that western intervention rescued the

:24:26.:24:31.

people from that dictator. What do you make of that argument? I agree

:24:31.:24:36.

we wouldn't be here in the ray -- if the regime ended a year ago. To

:24:36.:24:39.

do that we didn't necessarily need a war, we needed the west, Russia

:24:39.:24:43.

and the US, to sit around one table and reach one political solution,

:24:43.:24:46.

and only then the regime would be forced to enter a transitional

:24:46.:24:54.

period, where it is forced out of the country, and a peaceful way.

:24:54.:25:00.

hasn't happened? It hasn't happened, because we talks about political

:25:00.:25:05.

solution, and military interintervention, Russia is arming

:25:05.:25:09.

the regime, everyone is doing different things. If there is not

:25:09.:25:12.

international consensus, there is no solution in Syria.

:25:13.:25:16.

Another public institution was drawn into the Jimmy Savile scandal

:25:16.:25:18.

today. For at the heart of this is not who

:25:18.:25:23.

said what to whom in the BBC, but whether and how this institution,

:25:23.:25:27.

and a shocking number of others, failed in their duty to protect

:25:27.:25:31.

children. The Director of Public Prosecutions said today he was

:25:31.:25:35.

reexamining where the Crown Prosecution Service decided not to

:25:35.:25:38.

prosecute Jimmy Savile when there were abuse allegations against him.

:25:38.:25:41.

The decision also raises the question of whether other

:25:41.:25:46.

institutions ought to be informed of accusations, even if there isn't

:25:46.:25:56.
:25:56.:26:02.

enough evidence to make a conviction in court likely.

:26:02.:26:06.

He was a prolific offender with hundreds of victims. Today four of

:26:06.:26:09.

the cases were singled out. All dating from the 1970s, only

:26:09.:26:12.

investigated five years ago. These were the files that could have

:26:12.:26:17.

exposed Savile while the star was still alive. Three of those cases

:26:17.:26:23.

relate to Duncroft children's home N2007 a new witness came forward,

:26:23.:26:27.

saying she had seen Savile abuse a young girl there, decades earlier.

:26:27.:26:31.

The police looked into it and found more complaints, involving

:26:32.:26:35.

different victims. Savile was brought in for questioning. But

:26:35.:26:40.

never arrested. The investigation wrapped up, and in 2009, the police

:26:40.:26:46.

passed those files to the Crown Prosecution Service. Some of the

:26:46.:26:51.

detectives were sure Jimmy Savile was a dangerous sex offender, but,

:26:51.:26:54.

there was a major problem, the victims involved did not support

:26:54.:26:58.

more police action. So the CPS decided it could not bring charges

:26:58.:27:01.

against the star. The Prime Minister said today that

:27:01.:27:05.

prosecutors should look back at what happened to those files. And

:27:05.:27:07.

review that decision not to prosecute.

:27:07.:27:13.

Today I can confirm that the Director of Public Prosecutions has

:27:13.:27:15.

confirmed his principal legal adviser will again review the

:27:15.:27:21.

papers from the time when a case was put to the CPS for prosecution.

:27:21.:27:24.

The Director of Public Prosecutions, specifically, will consider what

:27:24.:27:27.

more can be done to alert relevant authorities, when there are

:27:27.:27:30.

concerns that a prosecution is not taken forward. Government will do

:27:30.:27:33.

everything it can do, other institutions must do what they can

:27:33.:27:36.

do to make sure we learn the lessons of this and it can never

:27:36.:27:40.

happen again. In the Savile case, there is no forensic evidence, and

:27:40.:27:43.

no crime scene. Without victim testimony, even the police accept

:27:43.:27:47.

it is difficult to proceed. But lawyers say the decision not to

:27:47.:27:51.

charge the star was highly significant, with hindsight, as the

:27:51.:27:55.

publicity could have encouraged other victims to come forward.

:27:56.:28:05.

Charging one often has the intended, or unintented -- unintended

:28:05.:28:08.

consequences of bringing forward other claimants and witnesses, that

:28:08.:28:12.

shouldn't be a factor in the CPS's mind, but it is often, from their

:28:12.:28:16.

point of view, a bonus, once their charged and their name is out there

:28:16.:28:21.

and the allegations are known. A different Savile victim, not

:28:21.:28:27.

connected to the Duncroft case, says she was raped as a young girl

:28:27.:28:31.

in 1970, she only told her husband about the attack a few weeks ago.

:28:31.:28:36.

She did tell the police at the time, but claims nothing came of it.

:28:36.:28:39.

were not very interested, really. They thought I was, they didn't

:28:39.:28:42.

call me a nutter exactly, I certainly wasn't, and I don't think

:28:42.:28:47.

I appear to be, but I didn't feel I was really believed. It has sort of

:28:47.:28:52.

haunted me, quite literally, it has depressed me, it has made me feel

:28:52.:28:55.

disgusted with myself. The lawyer representing victims says that

:28:56.:29:00.

shame has prevented people giving evidence for the last 40 years. And

:29:00.:29:04.

she says the scandal may go much deeper. We have had information

:29:04.:29:08.

that there are people who were complicit, alongside Jimmy Savile,

:29:08.:29:12.

and ones that actually took part. So I think it goes further than

:29:12.:29:20.

just Jimmy Savile. Other people that are living today? Possibly.

:29:20.:29:23.

Recent high-profile abuse case, the Soham murders and the death of Anna

:29:23.:29:30.

Climbie, have already led to greater -- Victoria Climbie, have

:29:30.:29:32.

already led to greater co-operation between police and different

:29:32.:29:36.

services, now prosecutors may go further, for the first time

:29:36.:29:40.

allegations of abuse may be passed on, even when there isn't enough

:29:40.:29:45.

evidence for a case to go to court. We have a real opportunity, and it

:29:45.:29:49.

really reminds me of the tragedy of Victoria Climbie, where there was

:29:50.:29:53.

an inability for agencies to share information, and I think there is

:29:53.:29:57.

an opportunity for us to try and prevent these tragedies from being

:29:57.:30:02.

able to happen again. It was one institution not being able to pass

:30:02.:30:10.

on information to the other, and that has to change.

:30:10.:30:14.

But, there are also risks, any change to the law will have to

:30:14.:30:18.

prevent another sex abuse scandal emerging. That new law must also

:30:18.:30:22.

ensure the innocent are protected from malicious rumours and

:30:23.:30:30.

persecution. We have the head of the legal team representing many of

:30:30.:30:37.

those who said they were victims of Savile. He's here now. What do you

:30:37.:30:41.

think should happen in the CPS isn't confident it can get a

:30:41.:30:46.

conviction? There are systemic failings which impact on what is

:30:46.:30:50.

the score issue here. The core -- the core issue here. The core issue

:30:50.:30:53.

is how to protect those who are vulnerable in our society, young

:30:53.:30:58.

children in particular, that may fall foul of individuals such as

:30:58.:31:01.

Jimmy Savile. The realities that whilst there are protections in

:31:01.:31:06.

place, the criminal justice system, as it seeks to prosecute, there is

:31:06.:31:09.

a requirement of course that the evidence be of a certain level of

:31:09.:31:14.

probity. That there will be a conviction. And in the absence of a

:31:14.:31:18.

conviction, the information is not then shared with other agencies and

:31:18.:31:23.

organisations. Do you really want to live in a society where big

:31:23.:31:27.

organisations, like the police --, or the CPS or whoever, pass on

:31:27.:31:31.

tittle tattle, is that what you want? No. That wasn't the point I

:31:31.:31:35.

was making. That could be, if it won't stand newspaper court, it is

:31:35.:31:38.

not a provable case, in the judgment of the prosecuting

:31:38.:31:41.

authorities? That wasn't the point I was making. I don't think it is

:31:41.:31:43.

the point made by the Prime Minister when he recommended this

:31:43.:31:49.

review. The point is this, how do we ensure that young and vulnerable

:31:49.:31:55.

people in our society, particularly children, do not fall foul of the

:31:55.:31:58.

evil acts of paedophile, for example. That is the key issue

:31:58.:32:02.

everyone wants to protect. In the absence of a conviction, which may

:32:02.:32:06.

well arise from the fact that the very victim, young, vulnerable

:32:06.:32:12.

children, feel unable to come forwards, feel unable to give

:32:12.:32:19.

evidence, which is yet a further trauma, allowing trauma, upon

:32:19.:32:22.

trauma upon the abuse and invasion they will have suffered. As a

:32:22.:32:27.

result of that, it may not be possible to secure a conviction.

:32:27.:32:34.

Yet, those allegations levied against a potential or alleged

:32:34.:32:40.

paedophile, may well have some credibility, and probably will have.

:32:40.:32:45.

You used the word "allege" and the word "May", that is the key things

:32:45.:32:51.

here, isn't it, they could be set- ups? The issue is this, if there is

:32:51.:32:55.

not a successful conviction, what happens to the information? Does it

:32:56.:33:01.

get filed away and never seen again. My view is this, that information

:33:01.:33:06.

should potentially be reactivated in the event there are subsequent

:33:06.:33:09.

allegations made against that individual. Which are of a similar

:33:09.:33:12.

type. For example, if there are allegations made in respect of

:33:12.:33:15.

someone being a paedophile, but there is not a successful

:33:16.:33:20.

conviction, and then subsequently there are allegation of a similar

:33:20.:33:24.

type, there should be some reactivation of that original

:33:24.:33:28.

evidence, original information. Don't the police do that any way?

:33:28.:33:31.

There is a real systemic failure problem here, because the

:33:31.:33:35.

information is not shared. This is the point of this discussion. When

:33:36.:33:41.

there is an unsuccessful conviction, the information is not shared

:33:41.:33:44.

through the agencies in an appropriate way, so we can be

:33:44.:33:51.

satisfied that those vulnerable people will not fall foul of abuse.

:33:51.:33:59.

It is something that a third of us can probably look forward to. Not

:33:59.:34:02.

that's -- Take That's the expression most use about cancer.

:34:02.:34:07.

It generally strikes late in life. But sometimes children must live

:34:07.:34:13.

with their body's uninvited guest. It is these words that bring the

:34:13.:34:18.

words "tragic" most often. The author Albert Espinosa was struck

:34:19.:34:27.

as a child, and his books about living with cancer The Yellow World,

:34:27.:34:33.

have been a huge success and are about to be turned into a

:34:33.:34:41.

television series. Thank you (speaks Spanish) Thank

:34:41.:34:51.
:34:51.:34:57.

I had cancer from the age of 14 to 24. During those ten years I lost a

:34:57.:35:02.

leg, a lung, and part of my liver. But this was also a happy time for

:35:02.:35:07.

me. In the Yellow World I do not write about cancer, I write about

:35:07.:35:17.
:35:17.:35:17.

what I learned from cancer. From the unpromising material of

:35:17.:35:23.

his childhood experiences on a cancer ward, Albert Espinosa has

:35:23.:35:29.

created a phenomenon. His blackly comic stories about what he and his

:35:29.:35:33.

young roomates said to each other and got up to, have hold half a

:35:33.:35:36.

million copies in his native Spain, where they have been turned into a

:35:36.:35:39.

TV series. They are about to be published in a dozen other

:35:39.:35:44.

countries, including the UK. Were you not very scared, did you not

:35:44.:35:49.

feel very frightened, particularly when they said, you know, a 3%

:35:49.:35:53.

chance of survival? TRANSLATION: think that the incredible thing is

:35:53.:35:58.

that once you live for so long, being so close to dying, then you

:35:58.:36:03.

lose that fear. When you get cured you no longer have the sensation of

:36:03.:36:06.

being frightened. It is a lesson you learn from the simple fact of

:36:06.:36:13.

being so close to dying. I have always felt that dying is not sad.

:36:13.:36:20.

It is a thing not to live life to the full. Following the sublgs of

:36:20.:36:23.

the Spanish series, -- success of the Spanish series, Steven

:36:24.:36:28.

Spielberg, no less, is developing a version of Espinosa's story for

:36:28.:36:31.

American television. Espinosa recalls the day doctors

:36:31.:36:41.
:36:41.:36:42.

told him his leg would have to be amputated. I was 15 years old when

:36:42.:36:49.

I lost my leg. I was lucky enough to give it a farewell party. The

:36:49.:36:52.

night before it was amputated, the doctor told me to give it a party.

:36:52.:36:58.

So I did, I invited people who were some how related my leg. I invited

:36:58.:37:03.

a football goalkeeper against whom I had once scored 50 goals. Well,

:37:03.:37:08.

in reality I only scored one, but they let people with cancer say

:37:08.:37:18.
:37:18.:37:20.

anything they like! Like any other boy growing up in Barcelona, Albert

:37:20.:37:27.

Espinosa was a mad, keen Barca fan. Our very own Gary Lineker was their

:37:28.:37:34.

star striker in those days. He stays in one position and scores

:37:34.:37:39.

the goals and that's it, that's all he does? Do you remember Gary

:37:39.:37:46.

Lineker, I do not remember, but Gary Lineker the best player in the

:37:46.:37:51.

world. Children in hospital, the only day

:37:51.:37:58.

we behave like really sick kids was the day the Barca football players

:37:58.:38:03.

came to visit us. They always gave us signed footballs, to the kids

:38:03.:38:10.

who looked the sickest. I think my greatest achievement was not

:38:10.:38:14.

beating four types of cancer, it was putting on such a sick face

:38:14.:38:16.

that Gary Lineker gave me a that Gary Lineker gave me a

:38:16.:38:26.
:38:26.:38:27.

football! I always said that humour helps to explain everything. Now I

:38:27.:38:31.

wear an electronic leg, and I find myself with the same problem that

:38:31.:38:36.

everyone with an electronic or artificial leg faces. You have to

:38:36.:38:42.

recharge it at night, so in hotter weather it is only one electric

:38:42.:38:48.

outlet I have to decide if I recharge my laptop, mobile phone or

:38:48.:38:53.

my artificial leg. Some of our viewers, sad low, will have

:38:53.:38:58.

problems with cancer or their loved ones will, they might find it very

:38:58.:39:03.

difficult to understand how you can have this almost humourous attitude

:39:03.:39:07.

that you have? TRANSLATION: I have always said cancer is very tough. I

:39:07.:39:10.

did experience tough moments, when I lost my leg, my lung, and part of

:39:10.:39:15.

my liver, and also when I lost some friends, they were very hard times.

:39:15.:39:21.

We don't have to always talk about the hard times, just the chemo or

:39:21.:39:24.

the surgery. They represent a small part of your life when you are ill.

:39:24.:39:28.

The other part, after so many years, is full of happiness, all the

:39:28.:39:32.

things you discover, and the people who love you, your familiar a your

:39:32.:39:35.

own possibility. What I say, is what you learn from it helps you

:39:35.:39:38.

for the rest of your life. I don't think you have to be afraid of

:39:38.:39:48.
:39:48.:39:48.

having a good time. Even though you are living with cancer.

:39:48.:39:54.

Espinosa's experiences have left him with a great appetite for life,

:39:54.:39:59.

and a philosophical attitude towards the other thing.

:39:59.:40:03.

TRANSLATION: I have always said I would like to die on a Friday,

:40:03.:40:07.

because that is the day when films are released in Spain. It is also

:40:07.:40:12.

the debutful things happen to me. If I die on a Friday I will be very

:40:12.:40:18.

lucky. Watch it. Come on. Good, that was

:40:18.:40:21.

Watch it. Come on. Good, that was quick. With us now, two writers who

:40:22.:40:31.

have lived with cancer, Jodie Butt, who blogs or the Huffington Post,

:40:31.:40:36.

and a writer who has written a book about her experience with cancer.

:40:36.:40:41.

You have given your cancer a name in your book? He describe it as the

:40:41.:40:46.

sea among kee, the best way for me to get my head around it was to

:40:46.:40:51.

give it a character. It felt like a monkey had moved into my life. When

:40:51.:40:55.

I say a sea monkey, it is the toy monkeys with the cymbals who won't

:40:55.:41:00.

shut up and are very irritating and won't shut up. That was my sea

:41:00.:41:05.

monkey who was here from day one, and is still with me now. He pops

:41:05.:41:07.

up everywhere. At the beginning he was with me all the time, on my

:41:07.:41:12.

pillow at night, talking incessantly, rambling through

:41:13.:41:17.

thoughts in my head. He would follow me to my friends' house and

:41:17.:41:23.

didn't stop talking, "you have cancer, you have cancer, everything

:41:23.:41:27.

is going to change ". You couldn't shut him up. Have you had something

:41:27.:41:32.

similar? I didn't give it a name, I tried not to think about cancer, I

:41:32.:41:35.

just tried to think about getting through, not pretending it hadn't

:41:36.:41:39.

happened, but getting through and trying to be the person I wanted to

:41:39.:41:45.

be at the end. Alive. These are completely contradictory approaches,

:41:45.:41:55.
:41:55.:41:55.

evidently. Is one more effective than the other? It must depend on

:41:55.:41:58.

your personality and family situation. I had children, perhaps

:41:58.:42:03.

I was thinking more about them. I had chemo therapy, I had a long

:42:03.:42:07.

journey, it wasn't just getting rid of the cancer, but the treatment

:42:07.:42:11.

afterwards. Does it make some things better. The writer there,

:42:11.:42:15.

Espinosa, teemed to suggest there were benefits, a-- seemed to

:42:15.:42:19.

suggest there were benefits, apart from the fact that if you have

:42:19.:42:23.

cancer you can say what you like? You do let you get away with a lot.

:42:23.:42:29.

Do they? If you need to use the "C" card, it can come in handy now and

:42:29.:42:32.

again. What do you mean? If you have commitments to do things or

:42:32.:42:39.

see friends and you are not feeling very well, and you are tired, it is

:42:39.:42:43.

all right, they have to do what you want them to do because you have

:42:43.:42:45.

cancer and going through treatment, in the nicest possible way I mean

:42:45.:42:50.

that. Does it make you, peerence some things more intensely? Yes, I

:42:50.:42:56.

would say so. Emotions are definitely heightened, and guilt,

:42:56.:43:00.

for instance -- exExperience Some things more intensely? I would say

:43:01.:43:06.

so, emotions are definitely heightened. You feel a huge amount

:43:06.:43:09.

of guilt for so many reasons. You feel guilty it has come into your

:43:09.:43:13.

life, the effect on your friends and family, seeing them torn to

:43:13.:43:18.

pieces makes you feel guilty. I imagine it is the same, when you

:43:18.:43:21.

are telling your children it is guilt about them having to get

:43:21.:43:25.

their head around. I didn't feel guilty, I felt angry, I felt angry

:43:25.:43:29.

that cancer had come into my life. I don't think I felt guilty. I

:43:29.:43:34.

think I got over quite quickly the thought I had caused it. I realised

:43:34.:43:38.

that was a very dangerous road to go down. If it was thinking did I

:43:38.:43:42.

drink too much, was it too much stress, what was it. You have it

:43:42.:43:49.

and you have to get on with it. This matters because we are all

:43:49.:43:53.

getting older, there is a higher likelihood that cancer may play

:43:53.:43:56.

some role in our lives or the lives of a loved one, we have to find a

:43:56.:44:04.

way, and you two are speaking very bravely and openly about it.

:44:04.:44:08.

"brave" that is an overused word. So brave, so brave. You are like,

:44:08.:44:12.

no I'm not, I'm terrified. don't have a choice. Do you?

:44:12.:44:15.

have to find, we are all going to have to find a way of talking about

:44:15.:44:20.

it, aren't we? I think that's what I found hardest, talking about it,

:44:20.:44:25.

because I didn't want to put me and cancer in the same sentence, I was

:44:25.:44:28.

very frightened of people's reaction. That is what is very

:44:28.:44:32.

difficult when people look at you and say, oh dear, well I do know

:44:32.:44:37.

one or two people who survived. You just obviously don't want to hear

:44:37.:44:42.

that. Maybe that's why somebody who deals with it instantly with humour,

:44:42.:44:46.

you have to present your view very, very quickly so people take their

:44:46.:44:53.

ideas from you. If you go around with a long face, oh I've got

:44:53.:44:57.

cancer. Writing about it allows you to be, I started off being quite

:44:57.:45:00.

cowardly with my writing, because it was a really quick way for me to

:45:00.:45:05.

tell all of my friends, quickly, what was hang. Without having to

:45:05.:45:11.

deal with their reactions, their motions, the fall-out -- their

:45:11.:45:15.

emotions, without having to comfort them, I could hide. What about

:45:15.:45:22.

Espinosa saying he gave a party for his leg? I had a goodbye booby

:45:22.:45:27.

party for my left breast, the night before my operation. I thought I

:45:27.:45:31.

have two options, cry myself into oblivion, the night before the

:45:31.:45:34.

operation, or I can celebrate a part of my body that will be no

:45:34.:45:37.

longer there this time tomorrow, with all of my friends and family,

:45:37.:45:44.

and laugh as much as possible, and try to be upbeat. So we did that. I

:45:44.:45:48.

had 10-15 of my closest friends around, we baked booby-shaped

:45:48.:45:52.

cookies, we told stories about our first bras and boys, and tried to

:45:52.:45:56.

stay as bossive as possible, right up until the last -- positive as

:45:56.:46:00.

possible, right up to the last moment. It isn't for everyone, but

:46:00.:46:05.

it worked for me. Did you do such a thing? I wish I had, I think it is

:46:05.:46:08.

so terrific, again you are telling your friend, listen, this is here,

:46:08.:46:11.

you don't have to be sad for me. It is a huge thing to lose a breast,

:46:12.:46:19.

massive great thing. Are you protect -- A Are you protecting

:46:19.:46:23.

yourself, or other people, or some how making it easy for them to deal

:46:23.:46:28.

with you as a person who has cancer? I think you are, if you act

:46:28.:46:32.

as brave you become braver. It does feed into you. If you are positive

:46:32.:46:36.

about things and upbeat about things, you actually do begin to

:46:36.:46:41.

believe what you are telling yourself. That's helpful? Very

:46:41.:46:47.

helpful, yeah. Thank you both very much. Tomorrow morning's newspapers

:46:47.:46:53.

now. The front page of the Times has news we are all having to find

:46:53.:47:03.
:47:03.:47:17.

another �1800 a year because of the That's t it was on this date in

:47:17.:47:20.

1648 that the treaty of West Failure was signed, something to

:47:20.:47:30.
:47:30.:47:58.

Hello, by the end of this week it will feel like we have slipped

:47:58.:48:01.

forward into late December or early January. Thursday more of a

:48:01.:48:04.

transition day. Still mild air hanging off across the south of the

:48:04.:48:07.

UK. That is where the cloud and patchy outbreak of rain will be.

:48:07.:48:10.

Further north and bright spells developing through the afternoon

:48:10.:48:13.

across a good part of northern England. Patchy rain, not amounting

:48:13.:48:18.

to very much. Still on the mild side across the south, 13, 14,

:48:18.:48:22.

possibly 15 or 16. Patchy rain across south-west England and South

:48:22.:48:28.

Wales through the afternoon. Still a fairly grey skies in most place.

:48:28.:48:31.

As you head further north, a better chance of seeing sunny spells

:48:31.:48:35.

through the afternoon. A fairly bright day all in all across

:48:35.:48:38.

Northern Ireland. Patchy cloud coming and going. Even with the

:48:38.:48:42.

sunshine temperatures no higher than 11 or 12. Much of Scotland,

:48:42.:48:47.

sunny spells, through the course of the day. Look at the temperature in

:48:47.:48:52.

Lerwick, two degrees, proper cold air moving in. Thursday and Friday

:48:52.:49:02.
:49:02.:49:05.

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