23/10/2012 Newsnight


23/10/2012

Analysing the BBC director-general's select committee appearance. Why did the government stop the planned badger cull? Plus, the man who sky-dived from space. With Jeremy Paxman.


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Transcript


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It wasn't as if the BBC needed reminding, but tonight the Culture

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Secretary did so any way. Can the public trust the nation's biggest

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cultural institution? Thank you very much indeed.

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The BBC Director-Generar didn't have an entirely easy time of it,

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when he tried to reassure MPs on the subject. You don't have an

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answer to that question. Have you an answer to that question, have

:00:35.:00:40.

you any questions you would like to answer that you haven't thought of

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answering yourself. Is trust easily recovered, should we change the law

:00:45.:00:48.

to protect children a lot better. The Government is shocked to

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discover it's October, and there is not enough time left to shoot

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badgers, the cull is postponed. What chance this stay of execution

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becoming permanent. The farmers' union President, gets to persuade

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you of the merits of badger sied, while rock star, badgercide, while

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Brian May talks the other side. Why would anyone jump off the side

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of space. At one point I thought there is nole challenge left, I had

:01:21.:01:31.
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done all the highest buildings, and base jumps, I felt kind of lost.

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The editor of this programme made a mistake in killing an investigation

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into child abuse by Jimmy Savile, says the man at the very top of the

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BBC. In the latest session of the BBC's proed torture, the Director-

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Generar today confessed to MPs that this organisation's shame and

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embarrassment at what happened Prom, promised action, and said, in so

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many words, that the Newsnight investigation should have gone

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ahead. There was much for more than appearance in which he volunteered

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himself, and in which he was obliged to admit serious failings.

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The urgent Tass is to regain trust. The only disagreement is whether

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this is the worst crisis in the BBC's history, or simply one of

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them. There is no doubt the Corporation is being tested.

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Director-Generar for just a month, George Entwistle found himself in

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the, at times, clearly uncomfortable position of being

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grilled for over two hours by MPs, who wanted him to account for what

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had gone on in the past and the present. The allegations, of course,

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centre on Savile is a, and the mounting evidence that he was a

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predatory paedophile. Mr Entwistle began his evidence expressing

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regret. There is no question in my mind, that what we now know

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happened was a very, very grave matter indeed. For somebody to have

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worked for the BBC and at the BBC over a number of decade, and to

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have been responsible, for what the police describe as an unprecedented

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scale of child sexual exploitation, there is no question in my mind,

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this is a very grave matter indeed. But there were clearly many

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questions that Mr Entwistle couldn't answer. Who in the BBC

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decided to bus in young, vulnerable girls from institutions to be in

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the audience of programmes that were being presented by Jimmy

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Savile? I genuinely don't know the answer to that yet. We are trying

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to pull together all the documentation we can about, which

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managers were in positions at the time Jimmy Savile's programmes were

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being made. We are supplying that information to the police so, they

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know how to take their investigations forward. But, the

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Director-Generar insisted, that new child protection procedures in the

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organisation, that such acts could not now happen. Since the story

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broke, we heard today, the BBC has received allegations, not just

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against Jimmy Savile, but nine other BBC or contributor, these

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allege sexual harassment, assault, or inappropriate conduct. Some of

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the cases, say the BBC, have been referred to the police. Then MPs

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came to the decision by Newsnight not to run its investigation into

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Savile. Last night's BBC Panorama aired interviews with Newsnight

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staff, concerned with the decision by Newsnight's editor, Peter Rippon,

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to end their investigation into Savile, despite their having

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gathered, in their view, significant and compelling

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testimony. Mr Entwistle, do you now accept, in

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the light of last night's Panorama, that the decision to drop the

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Newsnight investigation was a catastrophic mistake. I came away

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from the Panorama, firmly of the view, that investigation, even if

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in the judgment of the editor it was not ready for transmis mission

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-- transmission, at the point he was looking at it, should have been

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allowed to go ahead. Why do you think the description of events was

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inaccurate and incomplete. When you want to find out why a programme

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has not done an investigation, in my long experience of the BBC, you

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go to the editor of that investigation, or the commissioning

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editor of the investigation, because they are the people who

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should know why they commissioned the piece. They should have the

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most complete picture of why they commissioned the piece. What became

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clear to us, after the blog was published, of that what had

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happened to Newsnight, is there was a significant, it seemed,

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difference of opinion between the people working on the investigation

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and the editor, Peter Rippon, who commissioned the investigation.

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This difference of opinion between the account Peter Rippon gave in

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his blog, and what his staff were saying, led to a trawl of e-mails,

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leading to the BBC issuing a correcting statement. I have asked

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Peter Rippon to step aside, because of my disappointment in the nature

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of the blog, and the inaccracy in the blog.

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The final area of questioning was about what the director --

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Director-Generar himself knew. Welcome to Jim'll Fix It.

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One allegation is the Newsnight investigation was shelved because,

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as the then head of BBC television, Mr Entwistle, was planning a big

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Boxing Day tribute to Jimmy Savile. Mr Entwistle said he first was told

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about the investigation by the BBC's director of news, Helen

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Boaden. The substance of the conversation was Helen said to me,

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I wanted to tell you, this is to the best of my recollection, this

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is a conversation a long time ago. I wanted to tell you that Newsnight

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are looking at Jimmy Savile, or investigating Jimmy Savile, and if

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it comes off f it stands up, words to that effect, it may have an

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impact on your Christmas schedule. And I said, well that is for

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letting me know, and please update me, and what I meant by that, on

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whether or not it will be going ahead. You are told that one of the

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flagship investigative programmes on the BBC is looking into one of

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the most iconic figures, who you are about to commission huge

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tributes to, and you don't want to know what it is about? It wasn't

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because I didn't want to know, what was in my mind was this

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determination not to show undue interest. But, just saying, thanks,

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Helen, you know, what are you looking at? Why did she tell you,

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if you were determined not to ask what it was about. She presumably

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thought you should know, and would have expected you to say, that is

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interesting, what is it about? assumed she was prepare me, as

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indeed she was, to the possibility that I would need to think about

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changing the schedule. That was the information he took from the

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conversation. The director general left the

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committee with still many questions unanswered, two reviews already in

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place may answer some, but the big question, what this affair will do

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to public trust in the BBC, will, perhaps, take longer to become

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clear. No-one from the BBC's senior

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management wanted to join us tonight, instead we have three

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people who do, or have worked for the BBC. Bruce Bradley, the former

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Culture Secretary, and -- Ben Bradshaw, a former member of the

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BBC and member of the Select Committee, the editor of the Today

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Programme, and Liz Kershaw who presents for BBC 6. This question

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of trust that is the key to the whole thing, and does the BBC have

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confidence in the BBC. How much danger are we in? The basic scandal

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of Jimmy Savile and child abuse, and also the way the BBC has

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handled it. I don't think it is irreparable, but George Entwistle

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needs to get a grip. Needs to assemble the facts and make himself

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confident in those facts, he needs to act on them and quickly. Do you

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feel, from what you saw today, that George Entwistle is the man to

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restore confidence? It didn't appear so today. I mean, you have

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to feel a little bit sorry for the bloke in that he has only been in

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the job a short time, and he has to go before a bunch of well-trained,

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these days, MPs, on the Culture, Media and Sport Select Committee.

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But, there are two problems, and I think one of them is, I think the

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Director-Generar looks as if he's guilty of hanging the editor of

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Newsnight out to dry. Much as indeed some members of your staff

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are hanging the editor of their programme out to dry. Who says the

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decision was his alone? The problem for Entwistle is he orders this

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inquiry, which is to be unbiased and unpartisan, to look into what

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happened, and then, before the MPs, he dobs Entwistle in. Rippon you

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are talking about. Rippon, he says that Peter Rippon should have run

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that programme. How does he know, he hasn't seen the programme.

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said continue with it, he didn't say run it. He hasn't seen the

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programme. I know you are a long way away in New York, do you think

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public confidence is being eroded in the BBC? Well, definitely back

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home, but I can say here, no. When I was entering through immigration

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and custom, I was asked what I did for a job, and said I worked for

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the BBC, and the guy said, oh I love Morse, and you're in. Those in

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ITV got shoved to the back of the queue! I asked today a friend is

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the Savile thing getting a lot of coverage. And I was told, no, it's

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not like he's in Downton Abbey, that sort of thing. We are OK on a

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global scale, but back home people are definitely suspicious. Peter

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Rippon it has been accused that he was left out to dry. He gave an

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account of his reasons for dropping the investigation, any Director-

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Generar in that position would feel very let down as George Entwistle

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does feel let down. He went further than, that and he said there is to

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be an unbiased inquiry into what happened. The other two important

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points, and this is where the trouble might lie in the future, I

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find it very difficult to accept there was no pressure whatsoever on

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Rippon, because of those two e-mail, which we now know about. One from

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Liz MacKean to her friend, which said, which had Peter Rippon quoted

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as saying there is a long political chain attached to this. And the

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other statement to Meirion Jones, which is the bosses weren't very

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happy. Why would he say that if there were not some form, possibly

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entirely justifiable interpeerpbs, but. We hope whatever --

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Interference. We hope whatever happens in the inquiry that would

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be found out? It is thought to be prejudged that Rippon has been

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stepped aside, I don't know what that means, you might know, he's

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your boss. I don't know either, I assume it is voluntary, as an

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alternative to being compulsory. I don't know, I don't understand. As

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far as the general public are concerned, that is one small aspect

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of the story, isn't it? Does this perpetual spectacle of day after

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day, the BBC beating itself up, do anything to help matters? No, that

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is why George Entwistle needs to get a grip, assemble the facts and

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act on those facts, we can't wait on the independent Pollard Review.

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The longer this is about the BBC's handling about this, the more it is

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not about the victim, them getting their voice heard, and them getting

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justice, about the real scandal, which is how Jimmy Savile, and

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possibly others, managed to abuse them, with impunity, over decade.

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That is the important thing in all of this, isn't it? Of course it is,

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but the tail spin was caused by the bureaucrats not knowing how to

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handle, what was actually quite a simple issue. There is nothing

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wrong with an editor saying I don't like that piece it is not running,

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nor with the senior manager saying are you running this piece on Jimmy

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Savile, we have something coming up. That is perfectly reasonable, it is

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the tail spin, it is the denial, it is the hiding away, it is the false

:13:32.:13:38.

statements, that is what undermines trust. You are right, it it must

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get so boring every night. It is only news too! George Entwistle

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today broadened this, he apologised producely for stuff that didn't

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happen on his watch, a long time ago, it was really in your end of

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the business. In the pop end of things, and he then went on to say

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that there was an on goings investigation, I think he said nine

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people, for sexual harassment, and possible assault and that sort of

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thing. Has the culture changed in your end of the business? To some

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extent. I have to say that I was really impressed when I went to see

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George Entwistle. Because he was very honest with me, and said, Liz,

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I don't know anything about radio, I don't know anything about Radio 1

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and its culture down the decades, he was very interested in what hi

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to say. He was obvious -- I had to say. He was obviously keen to get

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any help he could, this shocked me, with assembling a cast of

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characters at the time. It amazed me that he was saying there was no

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formal record within the BBC of who was managing Radio 1 at that time,

:14:52.:14:55.

who the producers were, who the executives were, who the controller

:14:55.:15:01.

was. I wrote down a list of names for him, and he asked me was this

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guy still alive, and this guy's name has come up a lot, who's he.

:15:07.:15:13.

He said he wanted today get to the bottom of the culture. Did he call

:15:13.:15:18.

you? After I appeared on the Today Programme, I got calls from all

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layers of the BBC managers, and I said, no, I'm not doing this, I

:15:24.:15:29.

want to see George Entwistle. He saw me. This is how you revealed

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that you had been groped on air by a DJ? That was one of the things I

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said. I said there was endemic sexism, and if you were a woman,

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the way they kept you in your place was to use your gender against you,

:15:47.:15:51.

that's the point I was trying to make. But it has changed, hasn't it,

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at least I hope it has changed? it's changed. But it is still a

:15:56.:16:01.

problem, I think, that is a legacy of that. And George Entwistle is

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aware of that. I was really inspired by his comments that he's

:16:04.:16:08.

going to look into how women, in radio, particularly, are still

:16:08.:16:12.

treated. Because, for example, I don't want to bother you with facts,

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but only 17 perverse presenters on the BBC's big three music stations

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are women. There hasn't been a woman on daytime Radio Two for 17

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years. Only 26% of output by local radio is by female, and there isn't

:16:29.:16:33.

one, can I just make this point, there isn't one BBC breakfast show

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in the country, 54 of them, presented by a woman, that is

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something he said he would look at. Perhaps if somebody had spoken to

:16:41.:16:45.

Liz MacKean, as they spoke to this Liz, the BBC might not be in the

:16:45.:16:49.

crisis it is in now. I want to say one other thing. In one of the

:16:49.:16:53.

things Peter Rippon said, he said, when he decided, the editor of

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Newsnight, when he decided to junk the investigation, he referred to

:16:57.:17:01.

the evidence being weak, because we only had the women, only the women.

:17:01.:17:07.

This is toxic. He didn't mean, come on Ben. This is, I'm afraid,

:17:07.:17:13.

totally fatal for him. That is hypersensitive. How can you refer

:17:13.:17:18.

to "only the women". Let me answer. He could have used only the

:17:18.:17:22.

victims? He could have done, he said "only the women", there were

:17:22.:17:29.

more women than he fesed up to. are going -- We are going to

:17:29.:17:33.

explore the question of child protection in a moment, there is a

:17:33.:17:36.

question whether people can believe BBC News any more? There are

:17:36.:17:39.

questions about this, the outstanding questions from George

:17:39.:17:44.

Entwistle's evidence today, is serious questions for BBC News

:17:44.:17:47.

management. What were the people doing inbetween George Entwistle at

:17:47.:17:50.

the top and Peter Rippon as editor of Newsnight. Lots of questions

:17:50.:17:54.

about that, still not resolved. you believe it? Generally I believe

:17:54.:17:57.

it. Two things will come out of this, you know what they are, I

:17:57.:18:02.

know what they are. One, if editor's have any sense, never,

:18:02.:18:05.

ever refer up in the BBC, it will be trouble. More than, that once

:18:05.:18:09.

the inquiry is out of the way, what will happen at the end, is it will

:18:09.:18:13.

be much, much more difficult to do the sort of journalism that you lot

:18:13.:18:17.

were doing. Because people will be far more cautious as consequence.

:18:17.:18:23.

The most sickening aspect of the whole deck backle is the attitude

:18:23.:18:30.

that seems to have been taken by some -- debacle is the attitude

:18:30.:18:33.

that seems to have been taken by some, is that the people shouldn't

:18:33.:18:38.

have been taken seriously because they are victims. There is a

:18:38.:18:42.

problem of identifying offenders before they attack again. Might it

:18:42.:18:46.

be better to adopt the system in place in Australia, Ireland and the

:18:46.:18:50.

US, and make it an offence not to report incidents of sexuality

:18:50.:18:59.

exploitation. There were 200 potential victim,

:18:59.:19:02.

dozens of witnesses, yet Jimmy Savile managed to live to 84

:19:02.:19:06.

without being arrested. The abuse took place, not just at the BBC,

:19:06.:19:11.

but in hospitals, and children's homes across the country. So why

:19:11.:19:16.

didn't anyone report it? Why didn't those witnesses come forward?

:19:16.:19:20.

finding a lot of schools and institutions, such as the BBC,

:19:20.:19:24.

would much rather hide the abuse, and allow the abuser to continue,

:19:24.:19:28.

rather than actually report it, because then it would damage their

:19:28.:19:33.

reputation. We have no clearer evidence of that than the recent

:19:33.:19:36.

trouble we have had with Jimmy Savile.

:19:36.:19:40.

There are, of course, safeguards in place, meant to protect young

:19:40.:19:45.

people. Any organisation that works with children, has to put in place

:19:45.:19:55.
:19:55.:19:59.

In Britain, there is no legal duty to report that abuse, either to the

:19:59.:20:05.

police or to social services. The answer, some say, is to compel

:20:05.:20:08.

witnesses to come forward, to make it a criminal offence not to pass

:20:08.:20:16.

on those allegations to the authorities.

:20:16.:20:20.

Last week, 32 child protection groups, barristers and church

:20:20.:20:24.

leaders, wrote to the Times, calling for that change in the law.

:20:24.:20:27.

They want to see mandatory reporting of child abuse

:20:27.:20:31.

allegations, as is already the case in the US, Canada, Australia and

:20:31.:20:36.

Ireland. If we had mandatory reporting we

:20:36.:20:40.

would obviously, all abusers would be identified before they could

:20:40.:20:44.

continue their abuse, and we know, we know that child abusers very

:20:44.:20:49.

rarely only abuse once. Child abuse happens in institutions, nationwide,

:20:49.:20:53.

and without mandatory reporting, we can't possibly know the scale of it.

:20:53.:20:57.

Many victims and other campaigners say a similar system in the UK

:20:57.:21:01.

would give people more confidence to come forward. We spoke to one

:21:01.:21:04.

teacher, who said her complaints about a fellow member of staff were

:21:05.:21:09.

not passed on by the school to the authorities.

:21:09.:21:12.

I followed the correct procedure, which was to report this to the

:21:12.:21:16.

designated person that every school has, over time I began to suspect

:21:16.:21:19.

it hadn't been reported to the local authority. It is almost seen

:21:19.:21:23.

as a bad thing to report something. There is a culture of just covering

:21:23.:21:27.

things up, and burying your head in the sand, and hoping it will go

:21:27.:21:32.

away. But, there are strong arguments

:21:32.:21:38.

against any change in the law. Last year Eileen Monroe chaired a wide-

:21:38.:21:41.

ranging Government review of child protection. We have a strong

:21:41.:21:44.

culture within organisations that they should make report, and we

:21:44.:21:47.

have statutory guidance that says they have a duty to make reports,

:21:47.:21:52.

and that they should have a policy within any organisation that has

:21:52.:21:55.

contact with children to help people talk through, is this

:21:55.:21:58.

something to worry about, and then to know how to report it. Our

:21:58.:22:03.

system is ending up with about the same rate of referrals as the

:22:03.:22:07.

countries with mandatory reporting. So there is no statistical evidence

:22:07.:22:11.

to suggest that we are missing more serious cases than in the countries

:22:11.:22:15.

with mandatory reporting. Large children's charities are also

:22:15.:22:20.

against any change in the law. The NSPCC claims there is no solid

:22:20.:22:24.

evidence that mandatory reporting work, and it might just clutter up

:22:24.:22:28.

the system with extra unproven allegations. Newsnight understands,

:22:28.:22:31.

though, that the organisation may now conduct a review of that

:22:31.:22:35.

position, in the light of the Savile scandal.

:22:35.:22:39.

And the experience of mandatory reporting, in other countries, has

:22:39.:22:43.

been mixed at best. In Australia critics of the law say it has led

:22:43.:22:48.

to a huge increase in abuse case, overwhelming the child protection

:22:48.:22:52.

system, and takinging resources away from other areas -- taking

:22:52.:22:55.

resources away from other areas of social work like family support.

:22:55.:22:59.

Child protection workers on both sides of the argument agree on one

:22:59.:23:02.

thing, more does need to be done to change the culture of reporting

:23:02.:23:07.

abuse. I think there is a certain amount of crowd mentality, there is

:23:07.:23:10.

a sense, with the Savile case, it appears as if a large number of

:23:10.:23:13.

people knew about it, so any one individual would have thought that

:23:13.:23:17.

others know about it, and they haven't done anything, perhaps I

:23:17.:23:21.

shouldn't. There is that research of somebody on the street, having

:23:21.:23:25.

been injured, and people walk past, and other people then walk past. We

:23:25.:23:28.

end up behaving with immense callousness, because we are

:23:28.:23:32.

following the crowd behaviour. you think the culture of society

:23:33.:23:38.

has changed against 1975? It is certainly certainly changing for

:23:38.:23:41.

the better, we should not feel smug. There is a lot of progress that

:23:41.:23:45.

needs to be made. The world may have changed since Savile ruled the

:23:45.:23:49.

airwave, but today victims and witnesses say, they are still often

:23:50.:23:55.

treated with suspicion, as accusers and troublemakers. Do we do enough

:23:55.:24:02.

to protect the most vulnerable in our society my guests are here.

:24:02.:24:07.

What do you think of this idea, mandatory reporting? I would think

:24:07.:24:10.

it was quite a good idea, if I believed our systems could cope

:24:10.:24:17.

with it. But right now, our child protection system is completely at

:24:17.:24:21.

breaking point. You have to look at the fact that Birmingham has failed

:24:21.:24:25.

as a child protection social services, and then there are others

:24:25.:24:28.

who have failed. Then if you get this kind of mandatory reporting

:24:29.:24:33.

happening as well, the whole system will completely collapse.

:24:33.:24:36.

principle you are favour of it, it is just the mechanics? In general,

:24:36.:24:40.

we have to look at the issue of vulnerable children in this country,

:24:40.:24:45.

and our politicians need to stand up and have a vision in relation to

:24:45.:24:50.

issues of child protection in this country. You don't think it is a

:24:50.:24:54.

desirable thing? No, I think it is worth saying, that I don't think

:24:54.:24:59.

that child sexual abuse is rife, and I do not think that it is on

:24:59.:25:04.

the rise. Actually, I'm very nervous about the climate at the

:25:04.:25:07.

moment that is ratchetting up the discussion, because of what has

:25:07.:25:14.

happened around one very nasty, horrible case, the Jimmy Savile

:25:14.:25:20.

case. Mandatory reporting, it would be in danger of, effectively,

:25:20.:25:24.

having every rumour, every suspicion, go to the authorities.

:25:24.:25:29.

And I think that will create a climate of finger-pointing. Every

:25:29.:25:33.

adult interaction with a child could potentially be seen in a very

:25:33.:25:38.

unhelpful way. You have a pattern of repeat behaviour by these people.

:25:38.:25:42.

If you can get the first case on a file somewhere, doesn't it save

:25:43.:25:46.

other children? I think there is a serious danger of taking this case,

:25:46.:25:51.

and because of a variety of people ratchetting it up, and a kind of

:25:51.:25:57.

blood lust in the air. There is a danger of a witch-hunt? Instead of

:25:57.:26:00.

very serious case of protecting children, what we are going to do

:26:00.:26:04.

is do children a great disservice, now, we have already heard it on

:26:04.:26:08.

this programme this evening, we conflate a whole range of different

:26:08.:26:12.

things, sexism in the BBC, the lack of female presenter. That has

:26:12.:26:19.

really confused all of that, I agree. It was in the inquiry today.

:26:19.:26:24.

I am a making the point. I do think that child abuse is a serious

:26:25.:26:28.

problem in this country. The Children's Commissioner is about to

:26:28.:26:31.

release a report decribing wide scale abuse of girls in street

:26:31.:26:35.

gangs. We have to redefine our child abuse in this country, it is

:26:35.:26:41.

no longer limited to families. It is quite endemic in certain areas

:26:41.:26:45.

and it has to be addressed. We have already got to a situation in this

:26:45.:26:48.

country, where parents are afraid to let their children out to play.

:26:48.:26:52.

That is a different argument. You can't use that argument.

:26:52.:26:55.

allowed to use the argument I use, you can't tell me what argument I

:26:55.:27:00.

do. You go ahead and finish it, I think you are wrong. Teachers in

:27:00.:27:04.

school are frightened to let parents to take photos in sports

:27:04.:27:06.

days, we have criminal record checks that effectively meant you

:27:06.:27:10.

had to have a license to work with children. Voluntary Organisations

:27:10.:27:14.

frightened to work with children. This is not an atmosphere. This is

:27:14.:27:17.

a flawed argument. It is an argument that you disagree with,

:27:17.:27:21.

that doesn't make it flawed, there are two sides to this argument.

:27:21.:27:24.

are talking about a normal situation, which is adults being

:27:24.:27:26.

with children, you are saying, because there are allegations

:27:26.:27:30.

around that, that the issue of child protection. I'm suggesting

:27:30.:27:34.

unless we calm down. We agreed we were going to let me speak, next.

:27:34.:27:39.

There is an issue here, which is, that there is a problem with child

:27:39.:27:42.

protx in this country. It doesn't - - protection in this country. It

:27:42.:27:47.

doesn't mean that adults being with children in a perfectly OK way,

:27:47.:27:50.

should be addressed in an axe say thery manner. But nevertheless,

:27:50.:27:56.

there is a problem in this country, and we're blind to it. When in

:27:56.:27:59.

Rochdale the police and social services are decribing girls who

:27:59.:28:04.

are being sexually abused as making a lifestyle choice, it is a problem.

:28:04.:28:07.

I don't think society should be reorganised around child protection.

:28:07.:28:10.

The question here is about how one protects children, and part of that

:28:10.:28:16.

has to be, has it not, to do with the belief, the credibility that is

:28:16.:28:20.

attached to accounts these children give. Time after time, and it has

:28:20.:28:23.

happened in this latest BBC business, there is some question

:28:23.:28:28.

mark placed over the testimony of the victims, precisely because they

:28:28.:28:31.

are victims. How do you get around that? We have to be very careful,

:28:31.:28:36.

as well, that we don't say people have the right to be listened to

:28:36.:28:41.

and believed per se. You have to bear in mind that when people say

:28:41.:28:44.

something happened, you have to then see whether you make a

:28:44.:28:46.

decision about what weather you proceed with it. Because, for

:28:46.:28:50.

example, just to use that example, children can say all sorts of

:28:50.:28:54.

things, adults can say all sorts of things, there is a lot of rumours

:28:54.:28:57.

on Twitter at the moment about all sorts of people, do you want to

:28:57.:29:00.

live in a society where rumour and finger-pointing, where people who

:29:00.:29:04.

say, I'm a victim, means that the police have to be reported to. That

:29:04.:29:08.

everything has to be acted on. That we look at each other all the time

:29:08.:29:11.

as though something terrible is occurring. You won't like that

:29:11.:29:16.

world either? The very serious incidents, in the very mine

:29:16.:29:21.

instances that they happen, of child abuse, will be drowned out by

:29:21.:29:24.

an absolute clamming of people not knowing what we are meant to be

:29:24.:29:29.

pointing our fingers at. One child being abused is one too many, you

:29:29.:29:33.

cannot call it minor. It is a problem, because there is an

:29:33.:29:38.

endemic power imbalance. Children cannot hold adults accountable for

:29:38.:29:42.

their safety. Adults do have to take that responsibility. We are

:29:42.:29:45.

not taking that responsibility robust low. We will leave it there

:29:45.:29:51.

for the time being, thank you both very much.

:29:51.:29:56.

Mr Brock breathes easely the platoons of gunmen to be let loose

:29:56.:29:59.

on badgers in England, are being held off. This is not, the

:29:59.:30:04.

Government assures us, a change of policy of how to control TB in cow,

:30:04.:30:08.

ministers have been just caught out by unpredictable things, the

:30:08.:30:11.

Olympics, the weather and the fact it is October. The excuse hasn't

:30:11.:30:19.

been cancelled, merely postponed. It has been described by some as a

:30:19.:30:24.

good day to bury badger news. Certainly for our team on the

:30:24.:30:28.

ground in Gloucestershire, the badgers themselves chose to stay

:30:28.:30:33.

buried. They are nocternal. Here are some the BBC filmed earlier.

:30:33.:30:36.

For the farmer here, who had signed up to take part in one of the two

:30:36.:30:41.

trial areas, it has not been a great day. We're hugely

:30:41.:30:44.

disappointed, absolutely devastated. The farmers in the Gloucestershire

:30:44.:30:47.

cull area were ready to go, the contractors were ready to go. But

:30:48.:30:52.

farmers in the whole of the West Country will be disappointed, it

:30:52.:30:56.

just delays the roll out of further work we have to do to bring this

:30:56.:31:04.

disease and badgers under control. Even anti-cull campaigners were

:31:04.:31:07.

breathing only a cautious sigh of relief. The cull had been due to

:31:07.:31:12.

start within days. We last minute the plug has been pulled. But

:31:12.:31:15.

obviously we're very relieved to find that. But there are

:31:15.:31:20.

alternatives out there, and time is still against us. We're not

:31:20.:31:24.

complacent. We are going to keep calm and carry on with this. Let's

:31:24.:31:30.

get this sorted, let's get the vaccination out there. So, what's

:31:30.:31:35.

really going on here? According to the scientist, for a cull to be

:31:35.:31:40.

most effective, between 70-80% of animals must be killed T has been

:31:40.:31:44.

clear in recent days how many badgers would be involved. And

:31:44.:31:46.

farmers have to pay for each of those to be killed. As the numbers

:31:47.:31:52.

have gone up, so too have the costs. The original estimate for the two

:31:52.:31:58.

proposed cull areas was that they were dealing with a total of 4,500

:31:58.:32:02.

animal, that was revised last week to close to 8,000.

:32:03.:32:07.

In the House today, Environment Secretary, Owen Paterson, said bad

:32:07.:32:10.

weather and the Olympics were behind his announcement that the

:32:10.:32:15.

cull was called off. And placed the focus firmly on farmers and the

:32:15.:32:20.

contractors who would have actual low had to pull the trigger.

:32:20.:32:24.

actually had to pull the trigger. Today I have received a letter on

:32:24.:32:29.

behalf of the NFU, on behalf of the companies performing the culls,

:32:29.:32:33.

explaining why they don't feel they can go ahead this year, and

:32:33.:32:36.

requesting they be postponed until next summer. In these circumstances,

:32:36.:32:42.

it is the right thing to do, and as the people who have to have to

:32:42.:32:46.

deliver this policy on the ground. And work within the science, I

:32:46.:32:49.

respect their decision. He was adamant this is not a change in

:32:49.:32:55.

policy, just a delay. For Labour, Mary Creagh couldn't resist

:32:55.:32:58.

gloating. Labour has warned the Government for two years that the

:32:58.:33:03.

badger cull was bad for farmers, bad for tax tears, and bad for

:33:03.:33:09.

wildlife. And in addition, the Government's handling of the cull

:33:09.:33:14.

has been -- tax-payers, and bad for wildlife. And in addiction, the

:33:14.:33:18.

Government's handling of the cull has been shambolic, it is right it

:33:18.:33:21.

is delayed. The science of the cull has been much picked over, with

:33:21.:33:24.

both sides of the debate claiming to have science on their side. In

:33:24.:33:28.

the House today both Government and opposition quoted the same

:33:28.:33:33.

scientists, how can that be? I have been told that, in fact, there is

:33:33.:33:35.

little disagreement among the scientists who have looked at this.

:33:35.:33:43.

A cull will have only a limited impact. A net reduction of herd

:33:43.:33:50.

infections of some 12-16%, in nine years, in the 250km-square cull

:33:50.:33:55.

trial areas. The scientists that led the key trials OJ badgers,

:33:55.:33:58.

thought he now believes culling to be irrelevant and a distraction,

:33:58.:34:02.

and vaccination and biosecurity will, instead, be at the heart of

:34:02.:34:07.

any strategy to deal with TB in the UK. All the scientific experts that

:34:07.:34:12.

I know, agree, that long-term, large scale killing of badgers, has

:34:12.:34:17.

a relatively small effect on reducing TB in cattle. I very much

:34:17.:34:20.

hope the Government uses the delay as an opportunity to reconsider the

:34:20.:34:24.

policy. Because killing badgers is not really going to make an

:34:24.:34:28.

effective contribution to TB eradication.

:34:28.:34:32.

The Government says its goal is to protect cattle from what it

:34:32.:34:36.

describes as a serious animal health problem that is devastating

:34:36.:34:39.

for farmer, and its policy is science-led. The 30 or so

:34:39.:34:43.

scientists who wrote to the Sunday papers last week, urging a re-think,

:34:43.:34:48.

might not agree. They warned that licensed culling risks increasing

:34:48.:34:54.

cattle TB, rather than reducing it. Neither side has yet won the battle

:34:54.:35:00.

of the badger outright. How long will this delay be. Peter Kendall

:35:00.:35:03.

is President of the National Farmers' Union, and Dr Brian May is

:35:03.:35:11.

from the pressure group Team Badger? Team Badger. When exactly

:35:11.:35:16.

did you decide now that the cull is a bad idea? It is not a bad idea.

:35:16.:35:20.

Bad idea to do it now? It is the time of year. A week ago yesterday,

:35:20.:35:23.

Monday last week, we learned that the Government agency had decided,

:35:23.:35:27.

or through a survey, that there were twice as many badgers to need

:35:27.:35:31.

to be controlled in a very short period of time. And, look, Jeremy.

:35:31.:35:34.

The decision to have the cull of based on incomplete evidence,

:35:34.:35:39.

clearly? We were given, and we have been working on one set of numbers,

:35:39.:35:43.

and late in the day, we were given some new numbers. But this is not

:35:44.:35:48.

like turning a tap on and off. This is the countryside. Farmers and

:35:48.:35:51.

landowners were not prepared to have anybody turn up and shoot

:35:51.:35:54.

badgers. We needed the right resource in the right place. I

:35:54.:35:58.

believe it is the poncable thing to do is to say actual low, if the

:35:58.:36:03.

conditions are wrong, you re-think. So, it is not a reprieve, it is

:36:03.:36:07.

merely a postponed execution? not what we wanted, but it is

:36:07.:36:10.

welcome, because these badgers are living instead of dying at the

:36:10.:36:14.

moment. We have a lot of breathing space to make our case, our case is

:36:14.:36:17.

that culling was never going to do much good any way. What we should

:36:17.:36:24.

be doing is putting all our resources into vaccination, not

:36:24.:36:28.

only badgers but cow, that is what I would love to work with you on in

:36:29.:36:32.

the next few months. We are told that vaccination of cows is years

:36:32.:36:38.

away, I don't believe that. What do you think? We would love to see a

:36:38.:36:40.

vaccination programme. Presumably would you prefer vaccination to

:36:40.:36:43.

execution? If we can have a vaccination, we would have it,

:36:43.:36:48.

tomorrow. But look, wherever TB is in cattle or anywhere in the world,

:36:48.:36:54.

they have had to control the reservoir of the disease in the

:36:54.:36:57.

wildlife. I would dispute that. What about the scientists saying

:36:57.:37:01.

there is no evidence of it? chief vet in DEFRA is adamant we

:37:01.:37:05.

need to do this, the chief vet in Wales has advocated this sort of

:37:05.:37:09.

policy. There are plenty of scientists. I'm not necessarily

:37:09.:37:15.

expert in the control of disease in wildlife, the experts also.

:37:15.:37:20.

would you think people want to go around shooting badgers? If I was a

:37:20.:37:23.

farmer I would be frustrated and upset, this is going on for so long,

:37:24.:37:28.

and it is we have to do something. That something is not killing

:37:28.:37:32.

badgers. What's the matter? I'm asking you, do you think they are

:37:33.:37:35.

mad or something? I don't think they areed mad, it is an emotional

:37:35.:37:39.

response. You see a badger and you know the badger has the same

:37:39.:37:44.

disease as your cows, it started in the cows, you think I will get rid

:37:44.:37:49.

of the badger t will solve our problem. The research has been done.

:37:49.:37:55.

This country spent �pun 50 million on the RBCT trial, and the result

:37:55.:38:03.

was that culling of badgers doesn't affect controlling bovine TB in

:38:03.:38:07.

cows. It is cheap Tory shoot them than vaccinate them? It is not a

:38:08.:38:11.

viable option today. It could be. There could be lots of solutions in

:38:11.:38:14.

the future. At the moment this disease is doubling every nine

:38:14.:38:18.

years, and last year it took 34,000 cattle. We have to start. If you

:38:18.:38:22.

look at the spread of TB, it fans out across the country, exact low

:38:22.:38:32.
:38:32.:38:33.

as populations of badgers increase. That is an assumption. I don't

:38:33.:38:37.

believe badgers are the problem. Even the badger tru Trust.

:38:37.:38:41.

could kill every badger and you would still have bovine TB in cow,

:38:41.:38:47.

the best you can do by killing every badger is supposedly 15%

:38:47.:38:51.

improvement, you could make it worse what cull. A cull is not a

:38:51.:38:55.

solution, vaccination is a solution. I want to talk to you after this to

:38:55.:38:59.

see if we can work together on this. This cull, in the meantime will

:38:59.:39:02.

happen? It is not going to happen. Personally I think the Government

:39:02.:39:06.

would be too embarrassed to go through this again, I would hate to

:39:06.:39:11.

do this again. It is dead in the water. This was gefr never going to

:39:11.:39:15.

work, it is impractical, it is not based on science, and against the

:39:15.:39:17.

wishes of the British people, you can see by the petition. Are you

:39:18.:39:22.

certain it is going to happen next year? All I can go on is the strong

:39:22.:39:26.

words said by the Secretary of State today on the floor of the

:39:26.:39:30.

House. He was clear and unequivocal about his commitment. Politics we

:39:30.:39:34.

know can change massively in the next nine month. Don't you think he

:39:34.:39:37.

has a different agenda than you. You guys are sincere and honest and

:39:37.:39:42.

have a living to make. Don't you feel you are in bed with someone

:39:42.:39:48.

who has a different motivation? always nervous how politicians

:39:48.:39:52.

operate when they need re-election. Owen Paterson comes from an area

:39:52.:39:58.

that is riddled with TB, he has one of the biggest dairy companies in

:39:58.:40:03.

his constituency, and he knows we need a viable industry here. We

:40:03.:40:08.

can't leave it. No-one is saying that, we are saying vaccinate.

:40:08.:40:11.

is not available. I believe it can be available in months rather than

:40:11.:40:17.

years. I want to talk to you about it. It is one of those rather you

:40:17.:40:24.

than me things, stepping out of a balloon many miles in the air.

:40:24.:40:27.

Felix Baumgartner said that was the one thing he definitely had to do

:40:27.:40:32.

in his life, unusual to say the least. It was watched on

:40:32.:40:39.

smartphones and iPhones by 1.8 billion people. But what was the

:40:39.:40:44.

point. When George Mallory was asked why anyone would want to

:40:44.:40:49.

climb Mount Everest, he said it was because it was there. I wonder if

:40:49.:40:53.

Felix Baumgartner felt the same. The door is open, Felix. What

:40:53.:41:00.

person in their right mind would find themselves alone, but for a

:41:00.:41:04.

disembodied voice over 24 miles above the earth. Slide the seat

:41:04.:41:10.

forward. The highest manned balloon flight, was just a preamble to be

:41:10.:41:14.

the first human being to break the sound barrier without a vehicle.

:41:14.:41:18.

Felix Baumgartner, Fearless Felix, has made a career out of pushing

:41:18.:41:22.

the boundaries of human flight. We are told the entire event took

:41:22.:41:27.

place in the name of science. Before the long assent, in a

:41:27.:41:31.

specially-designed cap actual, Felix Baumgartner's body had been

:41:31.:41:34.

fitted with a -- capsule, Felix Baumgartner's body had been fitted

:41:34.:41:40.

with a number of measures to monitor how the human body copes

:41:40.:41:45.

with sustained free fall and supersonic acceleration or

:41:45.:41:49.

deceleration. To stop his blood boiling, his lungs exploding and

:41:49.:41:53.

his body disintegrating, he wears a pressurised suit. And the whole

:41:53.:41:58.

thing is funded by a soft drinks manufacturer.

:41:58.:42:03.

Start the cameras. Our guardian angel will take care

:42:03.:42:06.

of you. Felix Baumgartner, why did you want

:42:06.:42:12.

to do this? Well, you know, I have been, I have always been a very

:42:12.:42:16.

competitive person, since I was 16 years old I started skydiving, I

:42:16.:42:20.

always wanted to push the limits. That is the reason why I was

:42:20.:42:26.

working on this so hard. It is not like competing at tennis or at pool,

:42:26.:42:31.

or a running race, is it. To put yourself on the edge of space,

:42:31.:42:37.

miles and miles up, I mean, that's completely different? It is, but

:42:37.:42:42.

this is what make it so unique and challenging. If you look at my

:42:42.:42:46.

background as a base jumper, at a certain point I felt there was nole

:42:46.:42:50.

challenge left. I had done all the highest -- there was no challenge

:42:50.:42:56.

left. I had done all the highest buildings in the world. I felt lost

:42:56.:43:00.

and no challenge any more, and working on this has been a total

:43:00.:43:04.

low different ball game. I had to learn everything from scratch, I

:43:04.:43:08.

was not a scientist or a properly trained astronaut. I started

:43:08.:43:11.

everything from zero, that was the challenge. What is it like, when

:43:11.:43:16.

you are up there, all alop, looking down on the earth -- alone, looking

:43:16.:43:24.

down on the earth from a tremendous height. What is it like? When I was

:43:24.:43:29.

standing outside, it was a very calm and quiet moment, very

:43:29.:43:35.

peaceful. The view was totally outstanding and unique. At the same

:43:35.:43:38.

time you realise everything around you is very hostile. I couldn't

:43:38.:43:44.

stand there for a long time. As soon as I disconnected my oxygen

:43:44.:43:48.

hose from the ship's system, I only breathe out of the oxygen bottles

:43:48.:43:52.

on the back pack, they provided oxygen for ten minutes. I had to go

:43:52.:43:57.

off as fast as I can. You could have got this view from

:43:58.:44:02.

just looking at pictures, but you felt you some how had to see it

:44:02.:44:08.

yourself? I have seen all the footage we created on that day, and

:44:08.:44:13.

I have to say, it's really unique footage, but it is nothing in

:44:13.:44:18.

comparison with what I saw. I saw it for real, you know. I think I'm

:44:18.:44:23.

the only person who has that image in my mind. But when your body is

:44:23.:44:27.

spinning in the way we have seen it spinning from the footage, you

:44:27.:44:31.

could black out or something, anything could happen? You could

:44:31.:44:38.

black out, or mostly you could ride out, if you have a flat spin, you

:44:38.:44:41.

could have a red out, when the blood goes toe your brain we call

:44:41.:44:45.

it a red out. We create safety equipment for that kind of fatality.

:44:45.:44:50.

We had a G-force meeter, that is constantly measuring the G-force on

:44:50.:44:57.

your body. If it goes over the certain limit it fires a chute and

:44:57.:45:02.

that will pull you out of the spin. What did we learn out of it? Nobody

:45:02.:45:05.

thought before it was possible as a human person to break the speed of

:45:05.:45:11.

sound. We proved that to the whole world. Again, nobody really thought

:45:11.:45:17.

a safe bail out from 130,000 feet and the re-entry is possible or

:45:17.:45:20.

surviveable. We were also testing the next generation spacesuit.

:45:20.:45:26.

do you want to do next, then? Breaking the speed of light!

:45:26.:45:31.

would like to see that very much. Honestly, I think it is time to

:45:31.:45:35.

move on. I want to inspire the next generation, and maybe in 40 years

:45:35.:45:39.

another guy will call me up and say Mr Baumgartner I want to break your

:45:39.:45:43.

record. I will support that guy. In the meantime I'm flying helicopter,

:45:43.:45:46.

I'm also a commercial helicopter pilot. I will put my knowledge into

:45:47.:45:50.

public service, and work as a firefighter or rescue people from

:45:50.:45:54.

mountains, because, again, that means I'm in there, and this is

:45:54.:46:01.

where I belong to. Thank you. Tomorrow morning's front pages now.

:46:01.:46:05.

The Times, the head of news has been accused, according to the

:46:05.:46:10.

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