22/10/2012 Newsnight


22/10/2012

Featuring reports on the Jimmy Savile scandal and the woes of David Cameron. Plus, an interview with disgraced media mogul Conrad Black, and meet the dictator of Belarus.


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Transcript


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Not just the left hand not knowing what the right was doing, but each

:00:13.:00:17.

actively landing blows on the other. To scenes of commission and

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omission, the BBC today added a confession of incompetence. Its

:00:22.:00:25.

justification for not broadcasting the accusations of child sex abuse

:00:25.:00:29.

on this programme, was significantly inaccurate. Why?

:00:29.:00:34.

weren't asked to find more evidence, or anything like that, we weren't

:00:34.:00:38.

asked to get more people on camera, we were told to stop working on the

:00:38.:00:41.

story. A former editor of ITN and a former

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editor of this programme, are here to debate what went wrong.

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And then we talk to Conrad Lord Black, once one of the world's most

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powerful media magnates, now convicted for fraud and now mad as

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hell. I have gone through the process of being falsely charged

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and vindicated without losing my mind, and being able to endure a

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discussion like this without getting up and smashing your face

:01:13.:01:18.

in. He's a smoothie compared to our final guest, the President of

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Belarus, is the Europe's final dictator, and happy to stay that

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way. TRANSLATION: America want to democratise us, why not democratise

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Saudi Arabia? Because they are bastards, they are their bastards.

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It has been a bad day for the BBC, but it can, at least, take some

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comfort, from the fact that much of the damage was done by the BBC. We

:01:45.:01:49.

are no further forward on the really important issue of whether

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the BBC and other organisations failed to protect vulnerable

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children from an aggressive, egotistical child molester, called

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Jimmy Savile. This programme investigated the claims almost a

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year ago, and never broadcast what it found out. That decision was

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taken by our editor, and most of us knew nothing much about it until

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very recently. The Newsnight editor, incidently, also had nothing to do

:02:11.:02:15.

with tonight's programme, because he's not around. But the BBC

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conceded today that his account of what happened was wrong in key

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claims. It has taken 20 days for the BBC to get around to

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acknowledging that. And an independent inquiry will now judge

:02:27.:02:33.

why his account was wrongs. Here is the summary.

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For the last three weeks this programme has been at the centre of

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what has been called the worst crisis in 50 years at the BBC. The

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decision by Newsnight's editor, Peter Rippon, to drop an

:02:45.:02:49.

investigation into allegations of child abuse by Jimmy Savile, is now

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the subject of an independent inquiry. As you watch this,

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Panorama, on BBC 1 is broadcasting interviews with members of the

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Newsnight team, who worked on the original investigation. They say

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they warned Peter Rippon last year about the consequences of dropping

:03:06.:03:08.

this story. I was sure the story would come out one way or another,

:03:08.:03:14.

and if it did, the BBC would be accused of a cover-up. I wrote an

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e-mail to Peter saying, "the story is strong enough, and the danger of

:03:19.:03:25.

not running is substantial damage to BBC reputation". The BBC today

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admitted that a blog written by Rippon three weeks ago, explaining

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his decision to drop the investigation, was "inaccurate" or

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"incomplete in some respects", it is those errors that have forced

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him to step aside as editor of Newsnight, until an investigation

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chaired by the former head of Sky News, Nick Pollard, reports back.

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Three main errors with the blog, were finally identified today.

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Crucially these mistakes were left uncorrected for three week, while

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BBC managers repeated some of them. Peter Rippon's blog said Newsnight

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had no evidence against the BBC. But, in fact, the Newsnight team's

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key witness had claimed that some abuse, by Savile and others, took

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place on BBC premises. The inquiry will have to ask Peter Rippon why

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he didn't judge that this stuet instituted evidence against the BBC

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-- institute -- constituted evidence against the BBC. A lot of

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people are saying RIH, which is "rot in hell". This is a former

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pupil of Duncroft Approved School, a school Jimmy Savile visited

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readily. Today the BBC corrected its saying that no-one should have

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known about allegation, they corrected that saying allegations

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were made, mostly in general terms, by staff, who may have known about

:04:55.:04:59.

the abuse. Finally, the original blog post said did they withhold

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evidence from the police, and they said, no, they were confident that

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all the women they spoke to had contacted the police independently.

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But the BBC said today that in some cases the women had not spoken to

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the police and the police were not aware of all the allegations. This

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is important, because we now know that Karin Ward, Newsnight's key

:05:20.:05:24.

witness, hadn't spoken to the police, and did make allegations

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against another celebrity. Gary Glitter was one example. He was

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particularly horrible. And only interested in getting as much sex

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as he could possibly get from any girl. I can remember seeing him

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having sex with one of the girls from Duncroft. In Jimmy Savile's

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dressing room. Which was packed with lots of people. Was Jimmy

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Savile there? Yeah. He would have known what was going on? Oh yes, he

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laughed about it, he thought it was funny.

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The Jimmy Savile investigation was a high-profile story of the most

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sensitive kind. So why would the editor of Newsnight make a public

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statement, that it now turns out was incorrect. We haven't heard

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Peter Rippon's side of the story, and we probably won't, while he's

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the subject of a BBC investigation. Welcome to Top Of The Pops. Then

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there is a wider question, about the way in which the BBC has dealt

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with this aspect of the Savile scandal. In the days after the blog

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post, the two Newsnight journalists behind the original report sent e-

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mails to their editor, and senior BBC managers, including the

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director-general. They made it clear to their superiors they felt

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the blog and other public statements were inaccurate.

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It is obviously very damaging that the BBC has had to put out a

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statement, saying the initial explanation, as to why the

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Newsnight investigation was dropped, was partial and inaccurate. But it

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also begs the question why it has taken very nearly three week for

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them to make that admission. should there be a way in which BBC

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journalists can raise serious editoral concerns, with people at

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the very top of the corporation. The Newsnight reporter on the

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Savile investigation, Liz MacKean, felt there was nowhere for her

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complaints to be properly heard outside the editor's office. It is

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obviously very worrying, that the reporter and producer making the

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investigation programme felt, so strongly, that their report was

:07:30.:07:34.

being buried, and didn't seem to be able to do anything about it until

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Panorama decided to look into it. As far as the wider impact on the

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BBC goes, tonight's Panorama on Savile, could find no evidence to

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suggest that Peter Rippon was pressured from above to drop the

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report ahead of a Christmas tribute to the star. Tomorrow, the new BBC

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director-general, will appear in front of the Commons Culture

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Committee. Panorama alleges that Francesca Entwhistle was told about

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the Newsnight investigation last year, when he was the BBC's

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Director of Vision, but that conversation with the BBC's Head of

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News, of said to have lasted less than ten seconds. The committee

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will want to know what exactly Francesca Entwhistle was told about

:08:13.:08:15.

the Newsnight investigation. Why didn't he ask more questions about

:08:15.:08:20.

the report? And given what he did know, why were those Christmas

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tribute programmes, about Savile, allowed to be broadcast?

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The crisis has left BBC managers at the highest level, with serious

:08:28.:08:32.

questions to answer. And, it has raised issues about the culture and

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communications of the organisation. No-one would envy the director-

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general's task at the Select Committee tomorrow.

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Newsnight's editor, Peter Rippon, declined to be interviewed on this

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programme. No-one from senior BBC management decided to appear

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tonight, either. But here to discuss this are a

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former editor of Newsnight, and now director of the documentary film

:08:56.:09:01.

company, Make World Media, and Stuart Purvis, a former chief

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executive of ITV and now Professor of Television Journalism at City

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University. First off, how damaged do you think the BBC is by this,

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Stuart Purvis? When you had a corporate statement out there for

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at least a couple of weeks, and suddenly you pull it, and say that

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wasn't right. It was a statement initiated by the editor of

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Newsnight, supported by the Head of Editoral Policy, the director-

:09:24.:09:29.

general and the chairman of the BBC Trust, it is an embarrassing day.

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How can it take 25 days to find out the whole basis of the BBC's

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defence was phoney? It is an extraordinary position, and I agree

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with Stuart, incredibly damaging. How does it take 20 days? You know,

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the BBC is massive institution. It take as long time to get itself

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together, to get its lines of argument sorted out. I think,

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probably, possibly more fundamental was the fact that the BBC is very

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hierarchical, it assumes everybody beneath them has done their job

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well, and sorted something out. This was an alleged statement of

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fact? It was, they obviously, the fact that the director-general, and

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the Chairman of the Trust came out and backed it, I think they thought

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it had all been sorted out. That the process of the BBC meant this

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was absolutely defensible. What is amazing, was that nobody earlier

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had not gone back to the original, to talk to the two, the reporter

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and the producer involved, and actually realised that there were

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divergent views on this. We got no closer in tonight's Panorama, still

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running, on this question, on whether the editor of Newsnight was

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lent on by people higher than him to can the investigation. So that

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is still pretty opaque? It is, it is perfectly proper that the

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Panorama programme should say there is no evidence he was lent on. But

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we are only half way through this. Bluntly, the journalists are

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winning and the corporates are lose anything this process. We have had

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these two BBCs at work, and now the question is can these two positions

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be some how reconciled, in some sort of agreed truth. The omens for

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that are not really good. It is just continually damaging to the

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BBC that they had these two BBCs briefing against each other,

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leaking against each other, and I'm not even sure that's finished today.

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You have sat in that editor's chair, is it conceivable it was an

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individual decision? I find it, I find that difficult to believe. To

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be honest. I'm not ruling it out, as Stuart has said, we have not got

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to the end of it, we don't know. You wouldn't necessarily have to be

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instruct, presumably after a while, osmoticall and intuitively you

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understand what your bosses want? don't feel there was a corporate

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squash. But, having said that, so many things have come out about

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this, which have undermined and changed the story, that even I, who

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absolutely believed that, wouldn't be surprised if something did come

:12:09.:12:12.

out now. Because of the changes that there have been. The important

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thing in all of this, is, of course, not which programme said what about

:12:18.:12:23.

whom, it is about child abuse? And whether corporately there was a

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catastrophic failure, not just in the corporation, but particularly

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in the corporation in this case. How much do these two things feed

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across to one another, do you think, this general feeling that there was,

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that something went really badly wrong here? I think the common

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factor here is defensiveness. If you think about it, Francesca

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Entwhistle has nothing to be ashamed of, in temples of he had no

:12:45.:12:49.

role in the historic element, but the moment that ITV went public

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with their allegations, a defensiveness spread across the BBC

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about what happened 20, 30 years ago, as well as what happened on

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Newsnight. They really needed to keep those two processes separate.

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They should have said these are serious allegations about the past,

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we will look into it, and in the case of Newsnight, they needed to

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be more on the ball about what they were saying. One other element that

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is similar. They didn't actually take them seriously, right off.

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Having done a child abuse investigation myself, it is very

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easy to dismiss the people who come forward as not being credible. I

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think there is an element of how people have viewed the past, and

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what happened in the past, and possibly, what actually came out in

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a Newsnight investigation, that just wasn't taken as seriously as

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it should have been There is certainly a hint in the e-mails

:13:39.:13:45.

that we only have a the word of the victims. You kind of think that is

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a pretty strong word. Having done it, it is incredibly hard for the

:13:48.:13:53.

victims to come forward. Let's come back to this dreary media point,

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perhaps, Chris Patten, the BBC bruft, are also on the hook, --

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Trust, are also on the hook, on the basis of the statement initially

:14:02.:14:07.

issued, there are serious issues for corporate governance there? I

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think there was, when Chris Patten got the job there was a sigh of

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relief in the BBC. He's a political heavyweight, he wanted to bring the

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Trust and the management closer together than under his predecessor.

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There are echos, hearing Gavin Davies in the Hutton affair,

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calling the governance together saying we must support the

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management. He didn't need to say the things he said. He resigned

:14:29.:14:35.

didn't didn't he? He had to resign. Chris Patten said we told the

:14:35.:14:38.

police as soon as we knew we had evidence, that now turns out to be

:14:38.:14:45.

untrue. Now, monsters Inc, Conrad Moffat

:14:45.:14:48.

Black was once one of the most powerful men in the kingdom. As

:14:48.:14:53.

owner of the Daily Telegraph and other places, he was courted by the

:14:53.:14:57.

political class, and flattered by the investors' tip sheets. Then he

:14:57.:15:01.

fell foul of the American justice system, and charged with being

:15:01.:15:04.

seriously myopic when figuring out what was his company and what was

:15:04.:15:14.
:15:14.:15:16.

the company's. Lord of the Holy ap see, he became prisoner 18334 he

:15:16.:15:20.

didn't like it, and he went to see him about it earlier. First we

:15:20.:15:27.

shine some light on him. It was a calamitous fall, compared to the

:15:27.:15:31.

ficticious Citizen Kane, Lord Conrad Black was a real newspaper

:15:31.:15:36.

baron, whose crimes were covered in papers he once owned and defrauded.

:15:36.:15:41.

He has been consistently accused by the courts and others of being

:15:41.:15:45.

dishonest, always his reply is, "I'm the victim". This is no

:15:45.:15:49.

different now. Conrad Black has always played the victim card in

:15:49.:15:54.

his defence of his criminal behaviour. Ennobled in the Lords,

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this was the zenith of Conrad Moffat Black's career, and the

:15:58.:16:05.

beginning of the end. I Conrad Lord Black of Crossharbour, do swear by

:16:05.:16:08.

Almighty God...The Son of a wealthy Canadian industrialist, 20 years

:16:08.:16:14.

after buying his first paper in qek beck, Black had taken over the

:16:14.:16:19.

Telegraph, he was soon alleged to be looting his cop on a grand scale

:16:19.:16:23.

-- company on a grand scale. What is comical, when he was in London

:16:23.:16:27.

as owner of the Telegraph, he was always saying what genius

:16:27.:16:30.

capitalism was, when it was the capitalists, the shareholders in

:16:30.:16:34.

his own company, who said in 2001, you are stealing the shareholders'

:16:34.:16:39.

money, you are defrauding the Telegraph Group, it was he that

:16:39.:16:42.

said he was the victim of capitalism. Because he wanted to

:16:42.:16:46.

take as much money as he needed. said was the victim of the American

:16:46.:16:50.

prosecutors? Of course he was, they prosecuted a fraudster. Five years

:16:50.:16:55.

ago, Conrad Black was convicted in an American court of defrauding the

:16:55.:17:03.

company he had led, Hollinger. Report He was initially jailed for

:17:03.:17:06.

six-and-a-half years. But served less than half that, after winning

:17:06.:17:09.

appeals against a number of the fraud counts. He still claims to be

:17:09.:17:14.

innocent of all crimes. But back home in Canada, the country he had

:17:14.:17:17.

once renounced as being in decline, he remains a controversial figure.

:17:17.:17:21.

He currently has a one-year residency visa, and the opposition

:17:21.:17:27.

want him booted out. It is a far cry from the days when he and

:17:27.:17:31.

Barbara Amiel, his second wife, had two private jets and homes in

:17:31.:17:34.

London's Kensington and Park Avenue New York.

:17:34.:17:42.

Barbara Amiel for Conrad Black was an awakening, and enlightenment, an

:17:42.:17:45.

apparition, she was a goddess, because she combined beauty and

:17:45.:17:48.

intelligence, and sassyness, and everything else. The problem was,

:17:48.:17:55.

she also had this insaitable extravagance. As she said, her

:17:55.:18:00.

extravagance knows know bounds. one time, he ran one of the biggest

:18:00.:18:05.

newspaper businesses in the world, it was said he was a millionaire

:18:05.:18:10.

with a billionare's life standard. Others say Conrad Black was less

:18:10.:18:15.

modest. In the end, Conrad Black believes

:18:15.:18:20.

he's God, and everyone must bow to him. His hero is Napoleon, except

:18:20.:18:25.

he doesn't figure in the same way as nappol lan, he's always defeated

:18:25.:18:29.

whatever he does. The one thing you can't say about him, is he's a

:18:29.:18:33.

physical coward. In the end he calls comes back, and again and

:18:33.:18:39.

again and again, -- in the end he always comes back again and again,

:18:39.:18:43.

he's a fighter, that is how he makes his money. Lord Black is

:18:43.:18:46.

indeed back. Plugging his book, claiming he has been wrongly

:18:46.:18:51.

convicted, and trying 0 rebuild a reputation. -- trying to rebuild a

:18:51.:18:56.

rep taiing. That will take some fight.

:18:56.:19:00.

REPORTER: Do you think prison made you a better person? Hard to saying,

:19:00.:19:04.

I'm suspicious of people who say it make awe better person. It was a

:19:04.:19:08.

broadening experience, I can say that. It was, in a way, a humbling

:19:08.:19:12.

one. That is normally good for us. I suppose I would say, yes, but I

:19:12.:19:18.

don't want to give your viewers that I'm trumpeting myself as an

:19:18.:19:22.

altogether madeover virttuous person. Not at all, you deny all

:19:22.:19:26.

the charges against you? They are rubbish, everyone can see their

:19:26.:19:32.

rubbish. You are a convicted fraudster? No, I'm not. In the

:19:32.:19:35.

first place, under British and Canadian rules none of this would

:19:35.:19:39.

stand up. We got rid of all the counts and had the prosecuting

:19:39.:19:42.

statute declared unconstitutional. When you read the remarks of the

:19:42.:19:48.

judges, for example the judge in Delaware, that you are "evasive and

:19:48.:19:50.

unreliable"? That was not a criminal case, that was a

:19:50.:19:58.

completely, just a minute, that was a completely falacious judgment, in

:19:58.:20:02.

fact, absolutely defied by the jurors. It is the opinion of a

:20:02.:20:07.

judge? And you have been convicted? Will you stop thisburg

:20:07.:20:17.
:20:17.:20:20.

woipriingishness. What is bourg wore drg bourg war -- bourgeois?

:20:20.:20:24.

you think a British court, all of it thrown out, the Supreme Court,

:20:24.:20:28.

equivalent in this country, denouncing the lower court judges

:20:28.:20:35.

as idiots, the infirmity of inventing law and telling them.

:20:35.:20:39.

misunderstood what was legal? Nothing I misunderstood was legal.

:20:39.:20:43.

Why are you convicted? 99% of people are convicted in the United

:20:43.:20:48.

States. It is a all fascistic conveyor belt of justice that is

:20:48.:20:52.

what it is. 5% of the population of the world are Americans, 25% of the

:20:52.:20:58.

incarcerated people are, and 50% of the lawyers are. 99.5% conviction

:20:58.:21:04.

rate. This sits very odd. Six to 12 times as many people per capita

:21:04.:21:08.

incarcerated as Britain, France, Germany and Japan, how do you

:21:08.:21:12.

explain that? I don't think I have to? Give it a try. Why? Before you

:21:12.:21:17.

accuse me of being a criminal, give it a try. You are a convicted

:21:17.:21:22.

criminal? You are a fool, a priingish British, fool, who takes

:21:22.:21:25.

seriously this ghastly American justice system, that any sane

:21:25.:21:29.

person knows is an outrage. This sits very oddly with our

:21:29.:21:32.

protestation you are a Roman Catholic, don't you do penance?

:21:32.:21:36.

do, I do, and I believe in the punishment of crime, as well as the

:21:36.:21:41.

confession of wrongdoing. Do you not think that a man found guilty

:21:41.:21:46.

by due process of law, ought to be slightly penitent? If it is, in

:21:46.:21:50.

fact, due process. There was no due process of law in that. You see

:21:50.:21:54.

Jeremy, your problem is you have no idea how the system operates.

:21:54.:22:01.

are the one who chose to locate his business there? I did. Yes.

:22:01.:22:08.

were just foolish or what? In fact, I wouldn't say, I would say that is

:22:08.:22:12.

slightly overstatinging it. I underestimated the corruption of

:22:12.:22:18.

the American legal system, I confess to that, I'm penitent about

:22:18.:22:23.

it as well. What will surprise our viewers, that a man who has within

:22:23.:22:30.

through this will show no humility and shame? Of course not, I'm sick

:22:30.:22:34.

to death, I'm proud of being in a federal prison and survived it as

:22:34.:22:38.

well. I had no problem with the regime or fellow residents. I'm

:22:38.:22:42.

proud of having gone through the terribly difficult process of being

:22:42.:22:46.

falsely charged, falsely convicted, and ultimately almost kpwhrotly

:22:46.:22:54.

vindicated, without losing my mind, becoming irrational, stopping being

:22:54.:22:58.

a reasonable and penitent person, and enduring a discussion like this,

:22:58.:23:03.

without getting up and smashing your face in, which most people

:23:03.:23:08.

would have done if they-through what I have been. Get up then?

:23:08.:23:12.

don't believe in violence. Do you expect to retain your seat in the

:23:12.:23:17.

House of Lords? Why not. You're a convicted criminal? There is not a

:23:17.:23:20.

prohibition on a convicted criminal sitting in that House. You don't

:23:20.:23:28.

believe a man who has done time in prison should be to help frame the

:23:28.:23:32.

laws of a country? Yes I do. If there is a question about his guilt

:23:32.:23:36.

in the first place, say it was a person convicted in North Korea, on

:23:36.:23:42.

that theory Nelson Mandela couldn't sit. And, if I were you I would be

:23:42.:23:45.

careful about being such a gullible rubber stamp to the crooked

:23:45.:23:48.

American system. You think a convicted paedophile, for example,

:23:48.:23:52.

should be able to sit in the House of Lords and make laws on child

:23:52.:23:57.

protection? That is not what I said. No? If you ask it in those terms.

:23:57.:24:01.

If he was a legitimate, legitimately convicted paedophile,

:24:01.:24:06.

I would say there were serious problems about him sitting in a

:24:06.:24:09.

legislative party. The whole legal process is about determining

:24:09.:24:13.

whether people are justly convicted or acquitted, you put yourself

:24:13.:24:19.

above that, don't you? No I do not. I put myself in the camp of Henry

:24:19.:24:24.

David this. Oroeoux, who says in a society that routinely sends

:24:24.:24:27.

innocent people to prison, the place for innocent people is in

:24:27.:24:33.

prison. The idea I would sit in a public company and steal $285,000,

:24:33.:24:37.

that is what they are down to, they don't even claim it is a theft or

:24:37.:24:41.

fraud. They claim it is an inproper reception of money voted by the

:24:41.:24:46.

directors and published as a fact. That is what you are waxing so

:24:46.:24:49.

sanctimonious about. Does having a very extravagant wife make that

:24:49.:24:54.

sort of thing more likely? Oh God, I'm going to throw up! After seven

:24:54.:24:59.

years, my first morning back in Britain,am I to be subjected to

:24:59.:25:03.

this. She wasn't extravagant, she's a magnificent wife, she visited me

:25:03.:25:09.

every week in prison, even coming back from China to do it. Why did

:25:09.:25:13.

you suddenly start spending so much money? I didn't start spending so

:25:13.:25:17.

much money, I was a well-to-do man. I spent in accord with my means,

:25:17.:25:26.

and my means went up. You are a man traducced, if I'm to understand

:25:26.:25:31.

you? I am. I have been forcible with you, I don't want to disabuse

:25:31.:25:35.

your viewers that I think I'm always right, I made terrible

:25:35.:25:40.

mistraik, but not ethical mistake, -- mistakes, and not ethical

:25:40.:25:43.

mistakes, and certainly not acts of thefts.

:25:43.:25:47.

Look at me, I'm not knocked about by events, David Cameron tried to

:25:47.:25:50.

establish some authority It's All Over Now things, after last week's

:25:50.:25:55.

pitfalls, like the resignation of the Chief Whip. He says he's going

:25:55.:25:58.

to transform the criminal justice system, and not spending any more

:25:58.:26:02.

money, in fact at a time when he's cutting money spent on prison. He

:26:02.:26:06.

went to a jail for the usual photocall, and the disappointment

:26:06.:26:16.
:26:16.:26:21.

of his critics, he came out. A surprising soupy fog descended

:26:21.:26:25.

today. Westminster was lost in a Dickensian mist, as the Prime

:26:25.:26:28.

Minister, we were told, was about to take criminal justice policy

:26:28.:26:32.

back in time too. Except David Cameron didn't then go quite as far

:26:32.:26:37.

as been prebriefed, said he wanted to focus on the grey bits of modern

:26:37.:26:40.

life. With the crime debate, people seem to want it black or white.

:26:40.:26:45.

Lock them up or let them out. Blame the criminal, or blame society. Be

:26:45.:26:49.

tough or act soft. We're so busy going backwards and forwards, that

:26:49.:26:53.

we never actually move the debate on. What I have been trying to do,

:26:53.:26:56.

in opposition and now in Government, is to break out of the sterile

:26:56.:27:02.

debate, and show a new way forward, tough, but intelligent. So, not

:27:02.:27:07.

sterile and indeed not monochrome, but at the weekend, in black and

:27:07.:27:11.

white, a newspaper headline previewing this speech screamed

:27:11.:27:17.

"mug a hoodie", was a new direction coming into focus? Not really.

:27:17.:27:21.

many people, when it comes to crime, I'm the person associated with

:27:21.:27:27.

those three words, two of which begin with "h" and the last one is

:27:27.:27:30.

hoodie. I never actually said it, and haven't again today. For others

:27:30.:27:35.

I'm a politician who has argued frequently for tough punishment. Do

:27:35.:27:40.

I take a tough line on crime or a touchy feely one. In ore no other

:27:40.:27:45.

area of public debate do the issues get as polarised as this. He has

:27:45.:27:50.

been on a journey, when he came to the CSJ with the hug a hoodie

:27:50.:27:54.

speech, he talked about young people and what leads them to crime,

:27:54.:27:58.

in terms of causes of crime and rehabilitation, he has been pretty

:27:58.:28:02.

consistent. What we are seeing now is a sense, with the new Justice

:28:02.:28:06.

Secretary, Grayling grey, an opportunity to talk tougher --

:28:06.:28:09.

Chris Grayling, an opportunity to talk tougher, he's not in battle

:28:09.:28:14.

with other politicians to talk tougher. There was one policy

:28:14.:28:19.

innovation, the hoodie would not be mugged or hugged, but companies who

:28:19.:28:23.

stopped reoffending would get hugged, or at least a fee. With

:28:23.:28:27.

payment by results, your money will go to what work, criminals go

:28:27.:28:30.

straight, crime going down and the country getting safer. It is such a

:28:30.:28:35.

good idea, I will put rocket boosters under it. I have an

:28:35.:28:40.

announcement to wait. By the end of 2015, I want payment by results

:28:40.:28:45.

spread right across rehabilitation. But this is controversial, with the

:28:45.:28:49.

role out being announced before pilots have finished. It may not be

:28:49.:28:54.

blain sailing either. We have seen ho -- plain sailing either. We have

:28:54.:28:57.

seen how difficult it is with welfare-to-work. There has been

:28:57.:29:01.

payments there, and there is a lot of criticism about how it is

:29:01.:29:04.

working out. That is fairly simple compared to what they are asking

:29:04.:29:09.

for a justice system. Getting someone into a job is simple,

:29:09.:29:14.

getting someone to stop reoffending, and people have chaotic lives in

:29:14.:29:17.

and out and prison. Was this the Prime Minister's first speech on

:29:17.:29:21.

crime since taking office, a steadier pace than the previous

:29:21.:29:24.

Government, why not a little more from David Cameron? One reason is

:29:24.:29:30.

crime is falling, and concern about crime has fallen away with the

:29:31.:29:35.

economy and unemployment swamping it as an issue. But also because

:29:35.:29:40.

his lead over Labour has been pretty solid for a very long time.

:29:40.:29:43.

It remains 10% more people believing the Conservatives have

:29:43.:29:47.

the best policies on crime than the Labour Party. There wasn't much new

:29:47.:29:54.

in today's speech, it wasn't about policy but positions. In less than

:29:54.:29:58.

a month's time there will be a speech on elections of crime

:29:58.:30:01.

commissioners, but there hasn't been much effort from the Prime

:30:01.:30:05.

Minister to make sure they are a success. Today's speech is about

:30:05.:30:09.

associating in the public's minds cram Ron against crime F that

:30:09.:30:14.

doesn't happen, there is a fear that next month's elections could

:30:14.:30:16.

be the latest Downing Street damp squib.

:30:16.:30:20.

The Government has made many unforced errors recently, and many

:30:20.:30:24.

yes or no for some stability. Within the fog, some even discern

:30:24.:30:30.

the outlines of an economic recovery.

:30:30.:30:35.

The minister for policing and criminal justice, Roy Greenslade,

:30:35.:30:41.

is with us now, -- Damien Green is with us now, where is the evidence

:30:42.:30:46.

that rehabilitation payment works? The pilots done by the Justice

:30:46.:30:49.

Department in four prison, Peterborough has a very good

:30:49.:30:53.

project by a charity there, which is seeing some early results. And

:30:53.:30:58.

also, the wider experiment in the welfare system, we have used

:30:58.:31:01.

payment by results to get people back into work, and through the

:31:01.:31:05.

work programme, more young people are in work than before.

:31:05.:31:11.

Specifically on the penal policy, are those results published? No, we

:31:11.:31:16.

are still at the evaluation stage. The early signs are good. You have

:31:16.:31:19.

not yet evaluated whatever weather it does comprehensively work?

:31:19.:31:23.

have seen evidence it does work. What we do know is the current

:31:23.:31:29.

system absolutely doesn't work. yes, it may be that your new system

:31:29.:31:34.

doesn't absolutely work either, but how do you measure, in order to

:31:34.:31:38.

make sure they get paid? measurement of success is stopping

:31:39.:31:44.

reoffending. That what we want is people, what we have now is a

:31:44.:31:47.

revolving door where people go into jail, come out, commit more crime,

:31:47.:31:50.

go back into jail, that is clearly something that has to change. What

:31:50.:31:55.

we want to do is bring energy to bear from charities and from the

:31:55.:31:59.

private sector. So that if they can actually change people's lifestyle,

:31:59.:32:02.

I agree with those people saying this is a difficult ask, that is

:32:02.:32:05.

why we need all this expertise from all over the place F they succeed,

:32:05.:32:12.

then they get paid. So -- If they succeed, then they get paid. To get

:32:12.:32:18.

paid, the offender concerned can't reoffend at all. It won't be

:32:18.:32:22.

sufficient that somebody committing 60 burglaries a year goes to ten

:32:22.:32:27.

burglaries a year, that wouldn't be a result? The principle will be

:32:27.:32:30.

that for a certain amount of time, and one can argue about the amount

:32:30.:32:34.

of time for different offences, but say for a year, after you come out

:32:34.:32:38.

of prison, you are not convicted to go back into prison. Of any crime?

:32:38.:32:42.

The sort of crime that will land you back in prison.

:32:43.:32:48.

The Prime Minister also is lifting the cap on prison numbers, there

:32:48.:32:54.

are about 86,500 people in prison now. Are you envisaging it could go

:32:54.:32:59.

to any number at all? We haven't got a cap on prison number, there

:32:59.:33:04.

is no targets for prison numbers. Shouldn't there be? No, I don't

:33:04.:33:09.

think there should. Because crime is falling, as was rightly said in

:33:09.:33:13.

your report, one would report over time fewer people would go there.

:33:13.:33:17.

It is nothing to do with whether crime is rising or falling, it is

:33:17.:33:21.

an absolute? The number of prison places? No, the question question

:33:21.:33:25.

of whether people should go to prison -- no the question of

:33:25.:33:29.

whether people should go to prison if they commit a crime is rising

:33:29.:33:33.

and falling? It is true on the law and the sentencing policy at the

:33:33.:33:36.

time. The point of principle that the public wants to see, if

:33:36.:33:39.

parliament have passed a law saying if you commit this particular crime

:33:39.:33:43.

you should go to jail, then you should go to jail. How many people

:33:43.:33:46.

are you prepared to see in prison? We don't have a target, as I say.

:33:46.:33:51.

What we want to do is stop people reoffending, and the effect of that,

:33:51.:33:54.

because so much crime, such a large percentage of crime is committed by

:33:54.:33:59.

people who are reoffending, if can you stop some of those people,

:33:59.:34:02.

hopefully a significant number of those people, reoffending, then

:34:02.:34:06.

actually what you see is a fall in the prison population, even though

:34:06.:34:10.

you are being perfectly tough on sending people to jail who deserve

:34:10.:34:16.

to go to jail. An urgent dispatch today from the

:34:16.:34:20.

Belarusian Telegraph Agency in Minsk, and an avidly read source in

:34:20.:34:26.

the Newsnight office t carried the latest thunderous insight of the

:34:26.:34:29.

President, Alexander Lukashenko, he believes talk of democracy is being

:34:29.:34:34.

used as a cover for what he calls "plunder" by the west. Last week he

:34:34.:34:37.

was claiming he is no Stalin. He has a different style of moustache

:34:37.:34:45.

for one thing. We joined the latest press baron,

:34:45.:34:50.

Evgeny Lebedev, to conduct a rare interview with the man who is

:34:50.:34:54.

called Europe's last great dictator, a warning this film contains flash

:34:54.:34:59.

photography. Right own the edge of Europe, a

:34:59.:35:02.

place that offends so many European values.

:35:02.:35:08.

We have come to Minsk, to meet up with Britain's youngest newspaper

:35:08.:35:13.

proprietor. We're on our way to a rare meeting that Evgeny Lebedev

:35:13.:35:22.

has managed to secure. Not many get to see the corridors

:35:22.:35:26.

of Belarusian power. This is an opportunity to put on the spot, the

:35:26.:35:32.

man known as Europe's last dictator. It's also a challenge, for the

:35:32.:35:42.

ambitious son of a Russian oligarch. President Alexander Lukashenko has

:35:42.:35:47.

been in power for 18 years. He has been accused of torture and human

:35:47.:35:51.

rights abuses. He has thrown his opponents in prison, banned

:35:51.:35:57.

protests, and restricted freedom of expression. The Belarusian

:35:57.:36:02.

strongman is banned from travelling to Britain and the United States.

:36:02.:36:09.

And western journalists rarely get a chance to hold him to account.

:36:09.:36:13.

The night before the interview, preparations are under way in a

:36:13.:36:17.

hotel in central Minsk. I decided not to start on international

:36:17.:36:24.

policy, but more on him as a man. Evgeny Lebedev, once labelled as

:36:24.:36:29.

London's latest "it" boy, is now in the role of a foreign correspondent,

:36:29.:36:34.

for a newspaper his father bought for him of the I come here as a

:36:34.:36:37.

journalist for the Independent Newspaper, the article that I will

:36:37.:36:44.

write will be in the Independent Newspaper. He considers himself an

:36:44.:36:47.

authoritarian leader. authoritarian-style, is what he

:36:47.:36:51.

said. So, what does he expect from the

:36:51.:36:54.

Belarusian leader? I think one of the interesting things about this,

:36:54.:36:58.

I really have no idea how it will to. I think it is the first one

:36:58.:37:03.

that I have done, where I really do not know what to expect. But,

:37:03.:37:11.

apparently, according to his press secretary, he's up for a fight.

:37:11.:37:16.

Lebedev's own father made his billion after the break up of the

:37:16.:37:20.

Soviet Union, in the chaotic, rapid privatisation of state monoplies,

:37:20.:37:30.
:37:30.:37:33.

that made a handful of Russians rich, and left millions in poverty.

:37:33.:37:39.

Alexander Lukashenko never allowed that to happen in Belarus.

:37:39.:37:44.

The route this country, Belarus, took, was very different from the

:37:44.:37:50.

one that Russia took. To my mind, Russia went the route of plenty of

:37:50.:37:56.

democracy, in the 1990s, plenty of democracy, but not very much

:37:56.:38:00.

fairness. Belarus went the opposite way, there was plenty of fairness,

:38:00.:38:04.

and not very much democracy. Do you think that is a fair assessment?

:38:04.:38:14.
:38:14.:38:51.

But the relative stability of reel rus comes at a price. There is no -

:38:51.:38:56.

- Belarus comes as a price. There is no presidential term here, and

:38:56.:39:01.

the 1996 referendum consolidated Alexander Lukashenko's power. Not a

:39:01.:39:04.

single election here has been deemed free or fair by the west.

:39:04.:39:07.

Not a single opposition candidate won a seat in the recent

:39:07.:39:14.

parliamentary vote. Protests have been violently

:39:14.:39:18.

suppressed. But Lukashenko says western calls for democracy in

:39:18.:39:28.
:39:28.:39:44.

The referendum gave you huge powers over this country, and that was to

:39:44.:39:48.

appoint a Prime Minister, who appoints the Government, to appoint

:39:48.:39:53.

half the Senate, to appoint some of the judges, to appoint the head of

:39:53.:39:57.

the KGB and also appoint the head of the editoral commission. Do you

:39:57.:40:00.

think that is too much power concentrated in the hands of one

:40:00.:40:10.
:40:10.:40:48.

TRANSLATION: Don't you think it is The west's real agenda, the

:40:48.:40:54.

President says, is to open up the Belarusian economy. Which would

:40:54.:41:03.

make it vulnerable to the problems of the rest of the Europe. This

:41:03.:41:07.

woman is a journalist for a Russian newspaper, owned by Lebedev's

:41:08.:41:12.

father. In 2010, she and her husband, a former presidential

:41:12.:41:19.

candidate, were jailed for organising protests. Their son was

:41:19.:41:23.

three at the time, authorities threatened to take him away.

:41:23.:41:33.
:41:33.:41:53.

International pressure got them out Today she is allowed to leave the

:41:53.:41:58.

house, but not the city. Police visit regularly, often in the

:41:58.:42:05.

middle of the noit. And, she has a -- in night. And, she has another

:42:05.:42:08.

trial pending. One of our journalists has been arrested and

:42:08.:42:12.

is in this country, she can't leave the country. I can vouch for her

:42:12.:42:18.

personally, I know she's not a criminal. Can I ask why she's not

:42:18.:42:28.
:42:28.:42:28.

even allowed to go and see a doctor in Moscow? The President looking

:42:29.:42:32.

surprise and asks is she not out of the country already, he turns to

:42:32.:42:38.

his aide, no problem, he says, send her to Moscow tonight. Then minutes

:42:38.:42:45.

later, a memo arrives. Being dictator isn't such a bad

:42:45.:42:55.
:42:55.:42:58.

thing, he joke, there you go, and don't bother bringing her back.

:42:58.:43:03.

Later in the day, Lebedev brings Irina the news, she's grateful, but,

:43:03.:43:13.
:43:13.:43:16.

she tells him, she's also sceptical. Because President Lukashenko's

:43:16.:43:23.

Belarus can be a dark, secretive place, where what is said in public,

:43:23.:43:26.

doesn't necessarily correspond to reality. Many believe that was the

:43:27.:43:32.

case with the Minsk Metro bombing, an explosion that killed 15 people

:43:32.:43:38.

in April 2011. Within 48 hours, police arrested two young men.

:43:38.:43:44.

Within weeks they were convicted and executed. The BBC News night

:43:44.:43:47.

investigation into the attack raised a possibility that Security

:43:47.:43:52.

Services were involved in the bombing. And the mother of one of

:43:52.:44:02.
:44:02.:44:05.

the men said confessions were extracted under torture. Mr

:44:05.:44:11.

Lukashenko dismissed allegations of torture, and it was always under

:44:11.:44:14.

his control, the investigation, and Interpol agreed.

:44:14.:44:19.

Although we were just observers, I asked Lukashenko to follow up on

:44:20.:44:23.

the answer. Your own correspondent and newspaper that covered this

:44:23.:44:28.

trial, talked about what a sham it was, and it was basically a show

:44:28.:44:32.

trial. The BBC had evidence that some of the things said by the

:44:32.:44:42.
:44:42.:44:59.

judge were simply absurd, what does After the interview the President

:44:59.:45:03.

and Evgeny Lebedev disappeared for a private meeting. At the end,

:45:03.:45:09.

Lebedev never really challenged the Belarusian leader. It has taken the

:45:09.:45:13.

son of a Russian oligarch to get us rare access to this place, and the

:45:13.:45:18.

man known as Europe's last dictator. The fascinating four-hour long

:45:18.:45:22.

conversation between them revealed a man who is well aware of his

:45:22.:45:32.
:45:32.:45:36.

reputation, and yet, convinced that his country is on the right course.

:45:37.:45:42.

This is a country where facts are easily manipulated, and public

:45:42.:45:47.

accountability is scarce. Which is why, back at her house, Irina says

:45:47.:45:57.
:45:57.:46:21.

Even if President Lukashenko keeps his promise, she doesn't want to

:46:21.:46:28.

leave Minsk. This is her home, like so many others, Irina wants to find

:46:28.:46:38.
:46:38.:46:38.

her freedom here, in Belarus. Irina, who was featured in the film,

:46:38.:46:42.

is still under house arrest, it is now more than two weeks since

:46:42.:46:46.

President Lukashenko said she could go free. That's it, we will be back

:46:46.:46:56.
:46:56.:47:22.

with more tomorrow, until then, Grey will continue to be the

:47:22.:47:26.

dominant sky colour over the next couple of days. Earl low mist and

:47:26.:47:30.

fog gradually lifting through the course of the day, never completely

:47:30.:47:33.

clearing in many places across England and Wales. Not many bright

:47:33.:47:37.

spot, perhaps to the west of the Pennine, bright intervals in the

:47:37.:47:41.

afternoon. The North Sea coast staying resolutely grey, into the

:47:41.:47:45.

Midland, into the south-east of England. Despite the cloud, still

:47:45.:47:52.

mild, 15 in Southampton, brighter in the west of the high ground in

:47:52.:47:54.

south-west England. Barnstaple could see a little glimpse of

:47:54.:47:59.

sunshine, if you are lucky. East Wales, misty. West Wales a little

:47:59.:48:04.

brighter. For Northern Ireland it looks a pretty grey day. Highs of

:48:04.:48:08.

13. Patchy drizzle, certainly a possibility. The real bright spot,

:48:08.:48:12.

is once again, the North West of Scotland, lovely here over the last

:48:12.:48:15.

few days, that will continue after a chilly start. Looking into

:48:15.:48:19.

Tuesday and into Wednesday, not much change. Still most of our

:48:19.:48:23.

featured cities, looking grey. Similar temperatures as well. Maybe

:48:23.:48:28.

not seeing quite as much fog around by Wednesday. Just a little more

:48:28.:48:32.

breeze picking up, it helps pick it up into low cloud. A slight

:48:32.:48:35.

Featuring reports on the Jimmy Savile scandal and the woes of David Cameron. Plus, an interview with disgraced media mogul Conrad Black, and meet the dictator of Belarus.

Presented by Jeremy Paxman.


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