22/11/2012 Newsnight


22/11/2012

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark.


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Europe is looking very disunited tonight over whether the EU budget

:00:13.:00:17.

should be just over a trillion euros in the next seven years, or a

:00:17.:00:20.

shade less. For specifically, David Cameron is the leader going out on

:00:20.:00:24.

a limb, desperate to bring back a deal that will keep the country and

:00:24.:00:28.

his party happy. Europe held hostage by Britain,

:00:28.:00:32.

screams the papers, but here in Brussels, there appear signs they

:00:32.:00:42.

are about to cough up the randsom. We have guest -- guests who love

:00:42.:00:44.

the European Union and hate it. We will discuss.

:00:44.:00:48.

Tonight the BBC chooses the man from the opera to conduct the

:00:48.:00:53.

mission. Does the BBC's new leading man know what he's getting himself

:00:53.:00:57.

into. REPORTER: Have you been able to offer Lord Hall any security of

:00:57.:01:01.

tenure, some people it is getting like Chelsea around here!

:01:01.:01:06.

Are church and state about to collide, should parliament force

:01:06.:01:09.

the Church of England to have women bishops, we will talk to the

:01:09.:01:13.

politician who is going to try. The world's largest cemetery in

:01:13.:01:19.

Iraq, isn't short of patronss, living or dead, but does the great

:01:19.:01:22.

sectarian divide between Shia and Sunni, threaten more trouble for

:01:22.:01:32.
:01:32.:01:33.

Iraq and the Middle East. Good evening. In the manner which makes

:01:33.:01:38.

the European Union a by-word for bold, dynamic leadership, the

:01:38.:01:41.

meetings in Brussels are already running four hours late, supper

:01:41.:01:46.

will start at midnight, and a deal, if there is one, isn't expected

:01:46.:01:50.

until well into the bleary dawn, and maybe another eurofudge will

:01:50.:01:55.

come out of it. David Cameron is caught between the rock, built off

:01:55.:01:58.

European leaders, most of whom want a budget increase, and the hard

:01:58.:02:04.

place, the restless parliament who say they will only accept a cut.

:02:04.:02:08.

Vasily Grossman disappeared into the long dark tunnel of Belgium. In

:02:08.:02:11.

all the excitement about the Diamond Jubilee, we have, perhaps,

:02:11.:02:17.

missed another important 60th anniversary, this year, we are

:02:17.:02:24.

"celebrating", if that is the right word, six decades of eurosummits.

:02:24.:02:29.

Much of it hasn't changed, more briefings, more waiting, and more

:02:29.:02:32.

meetings. For journalists, the sheer mental effort of trying to

:02:32.:02:37.

follow what on earth is going on. Still, at least this one is about

:02:37.:02:40.

something everyone can understand, it is about money. Who pays and how

:02:40.:02:45.

much. David Cameron is clear that a rise

:02:45.:02:50.

in the EU's budget is totally unacceptable. No, I'm not happy at

:02:50.:02:53.

all. These are very important negotiations, clearly at a time

:02:53.:02:56.

when we are making difficult decisions at home over public

:02:56.:03:01.

spending t would be quite wrong, it is quite wrong for proposal force

:03:01.:03:04.

this increased extra spending in the EU. We are going to be

:03:04.:03:08.

negotiating very hard for a good deal for Britain's tax-payers and

:03:09.:03:13.

for Europe's tax-payers, and to keep the British rebate. Although

:03:13.:03:17.

some other European countries, lick Germany and Netherlands, who are,

:03:17.:03:23.

like us, net contributor, support calls for a cut, others do not.

:03:23.:03:26.

TRANSLATION: It is a shame for the British Europe is primarily a

:03:26.:03:31.

single market, for me, for Belgium, Europe is more about solidarity and

:03:31.:03:35.

prosperity for all Europeans. So I will plead with some such as David

:03:35.:03:40.

Cameron for a more ambition budget. Is this -- ambitious budget. Is

:03:40.:03:43.

this possible? We will see, I hope other countries such as Italy and

:03:43.:03:49.

France will support us in this ambitious budget.

:03:49.:03:54.

Today is taken up with individual meetings, known in the EU jargon as

:03:54.:03:58.

confessionals, where each country, starting this morning with the UK,

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makes its case to the EU Commission and council.

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One by one, the countries go in for their 15-minute budget pitch.

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So what do we know about the position so far? The commission

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initially proposed a 1,025 billion euro budget. The council President,

:04:19.:04:23.

Herman Van Rompuy, yesterday amended it to 973 billion, Britain

:04:23.:04:28.

wants a freeze, something like 825 billion. However, let's put those

:04:28.:04:31.

numbers in perspective, if we compare the most anyone is asking

:04:31.:04:34.

Britain to pay, with what David Cameron is saying he's prepared to

:04:34.:04:40.

pay, it probably boils down to something like �00 million per year.

:04:40.:04:43.

Easily affordable in terms of overall Government spending. No,

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this is really about politics. David Cameron thinks the public

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have had enough of Europe, and he as under pressure from his party to

:04:49.:04:54.

draw a line. Under the council President's

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proposal, 309 billion would be spent on cohesion, that includes

:04:58.:05:03.

help for less developed regions of Europe. 5 billion would be spent on

:05:03.:05:06.

outside relation -- 65 billion would be spent on outside relations,

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including aid and help for countries who want to join. The

:05:10.:05:14.

biggest single item in the proposed budget is agriculture and fisheries,

:05:14.:05:20.

364 billion euros, more than a third of the entire budget.

:05:20.:05:30.
:05:30.:05:30.

In Britain, big beneficiaries of the budget are big landowners, who,

:05:31.:05:35.

like the Queen, over the last decade she has received �7 million

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of EU money. EU spending is an easy political target. A report

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published today says 150,000 euros was spent on a research project for

:05:45.:05:51.

the social relevance of coffee. 58,000 euros for a chilli pepper

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festival, 196,000 euros for a onadm puppet axe cad me. The budget is

:05:57.:06:04.

subject -- a nomad puppet academy. The budget is subject to a lot of

:06:04.:06:06.

waste. A lot of money goes to landowners, irrespective of what

:06:07.:06:12.

they do with the land, even if they are not in any meaningful economic

:06:12.:06:15.

activity they still get support. Another huge chunk of the budget

:06:15.:06:19.

goes to recycling cash between some of the richer member states, in

:06:19.:06:24.

what is known as regional or structure funds, at a huge

:06:24.:06:28.

administrationive and opportunity cost. So, no, the EU budget is not

:06:28.:06:31.

good value for money. Part of the political positioning before a

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summit like this, is to bang the table a bit, and threaten to use

:06:35.:06:40.

the veto, David Cameron will know if he vetos an EU budget deal, not

:06:40.:06:43.

only will it not turn off the tap of EU spending, actually Britain

:06:44.:06:52.

could end up paying more. We are used to seeing pictures of

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budget deadlock in the US, where Congress has the power to shut down

:06:55.:06:58.

the Government. Teachers and civil servants get sacked and everything

:06:58.:07:03.

closes. That is not what happens in Europe. Even if no budget deal is

:07:03.:07:06.

reached. If there isn't a deal in time for this new seven-year

:07:06.:07:10.

programme to come into effect. What they would do is simply roll over

:07:10.:07:13.

the existing budgets. That would be based on next year's figures, that

:07:13.:07:18.

is the end of the currenting budgeting figures, that would leave

:07:18.:07:22.

a higher level of spending than is currently proposed with the

:07:22.:07:26.

proposal on the table. The risk is you block a deal and end up paying

:07:26.:07:33.

more under this rolling programme. And in the meantime we wait, like

:07:33.:07:36.

countless others before, waiting for something to happen, quite what,

:07:36.:07:43.

we don't know yet. But, this can't go on forever, can it? Perhaps

:07:43.:07:47.

David could tell us that. What is the latest David? Well, the latest

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is, Kirsty, in the last few minutes, they have started their working

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dinner to negotiate their positions after that extensive day of

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bilaterals, and Herman Van Rompuy began with a little joke. He said

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thank goodness owe only have it once every - we only have this once

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every seven years. Get this for symbolism, there is no din, they

:08:13.:08:18.

are having cold cuts. Tonight I have to say the billing of this

:08:18.:08:20.

summit, 26 against 1 David Cameron isolated. It doesn't feel like that

:08:20.:08:24.

now. There is a lot of movement towards the British position,

:08:24.:08:27.

particularly from the council President, Herman Van Rompuy.

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Although the deal he proposed was rejected by David Cameron, it is a

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lot closer to what David Cameron is after. The people looking more

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isolated are the French. Normally going into a summit like this, the

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French and germs will meet four or five days prior and they will agree

:08:43.:08:46.

a common position. That hasn't happened now, Francois Hollande is

:08:46.:08:49.

the guy with trouble if he goes back with this deal, because it

:08:49.:08:53.

requires him to take a big cut on that Common Agricultural Policy, he

:08:54.:08:57.

would be in great difficulties if he were to accept that. What

:08:57.:09:01.

happens now? They will digest their cold cuts, they will also digest

:09:01.:09:04.

what Herman Van Rompuy has to say. Most likely they will go back to

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their hotels tonight, and come back tomorrow to continue negotiations.

:09:08.:09:11.

They might go through the night, but probably they will come back

:09:11.:09:14.

tomorrow. There is nothing else on the agenda for tomorrow. In the

:09:14.:09:17.

meantime, I will leave you with another bit of symbolism. On the

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screens behind me, just before you came to me, was a Public

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Information message that seemed to have a bit of Thatcherite symbolism,

:09:24.:09:33.

it said "a handbag has been found"! Not wielded yet.

:09:33.:09:37.

In Berlin, Ralph Brinkhraus is a German MP in the CDU party, and

:09:37.:09:42.

sits in the Bundestag Finance Committee. We're joined by Marta

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Andreasen a UK Independence Party MEP, she was the first chief

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accountant of the European Commission. John Peet is the Europe

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editor of the Economist Magazine, and the Conservative MP, Mark

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Reckless, tabled a rebel amendment last month, calling for the

:09:55.:09:59.

Government to demand a real-terms cut in the EU budget.

:09:59.:10:03.

Mark Reckless, you wanted a real- terms cut, I don't think you are

:10:03.:10:07.

going to get it? There is a chance we will get it. There is not that

:10:07.:10:10.

much difference between a freeze and a small cut. I think what

:10:10.:10:15.

Europe is now understanding is the strength of feeling in the UK, and

:10:15.:10:19.

our parliament has voted that there will be a cut, and we have to have

:10:19.:10:23.

legislation to implement it. If there is not, then Europe could be

:10:23.:10:28.

operating without a budget. Ralph Brinkhraus, this is all about

:10:28.:10:32.

atmosphere, because countries all over the European Union are having

:10:32.:10:36.

to slash their budgets, EU citizens are facing horrific austerity in

:10:36.:10:41.

some countries, and yet, it just looks like the EU is going merrily

:10:41.:10:46.

on and agreeing to increase its budget, perhaps? Yes, it is a very

:10:46.:10:50.

difficult thing to communicate to the people within Europe. But there

:10:50.:10:54.

are strong particular interests within the countries, so for

:10:54.:10:57.

example in the peripherals, in the south of Europe, and even in the

:10:57.:11:03.

east of Europe, people are talking about subsidies coming from the

:11:03.:11:07.

European Union. We have the agriculture problem in France, and

:11:07.:11:12.

we have this group consisting of Germany, UK and Swede and

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Nethelands who want to freeze and - - Sweden and Netherlands who want

:11:17.:11:21.

to freeze or cut the budget. If you are sitting in Greece, and facing

:11:21.:11:23.

huge austerity, you don't think the European Union is doing anything

:11:24.:11:30.

for you at all? Yes, I think the European Union is doing a lot for

:11:30.:11:34.

Greece, and there are a lot of funds that Greece does participate

:11:34.:11:38.

in. I guess it is the Government there has a strong interest in a

:11:39.:11:43.

raise of the budget, and not in a cut or a freeze.

:11:43.:11:47.

Why do you think, it may not be the case, David says tonight there

:11:47.:11:51.

seems to be some kind of shift, all too often it looks like Britain

:11:51.:11:54.

doesn't win the arguments? I think there are two reasons why Britain

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doesn't win the arguments, the most important reason is they are not

:11:57.:12:00.

very good at seeking allies. I'm afraid we have seen this before

:12:01.:12:04.

with David Cameron,s had approach to most summits is to go into

:12:04.:12:09.

summits threaten to go veelt toe things, if you threaten -- veto

:12:09.:12:12.

things. If you threat an veto where you have to agree on things you

:12:12.:12:15.

won't be very popular. Do you think it is because he's not very well

:12:15.:12:19.

versed in Europe, he doesn't quite understand the communication

:12:19.:12:23.

system? He's under pressure, frank lie, from people like Mark Reckless.

:12:23.:12:27.

Is -- frankly, from people like Mark Reckless. His party is saying

:12:27.:12:32.

please go in, and Boris Johnson is saying threaten to veto things. He

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has a lot of pressure to go in and threaten to veto. In Brussels going

:12:35.:12:42.

in to threaten to veto is not very good for a negotiation that

:12:42.:12:46.

requires an answer at the end of the nigh.

:12:46.:12:50.

Ultimately if David Cameron doesn't veto it, it may be parliament vetos.

:12:50.:12:54.

The rest of the EU needs to understand that this country is fed

:12:54.:12:58.

up to the back teeth of the EU paying all this money in, if they

:12:58.:13:01.

want to us pay anything into it, they have to get with it and make

:13:01.:13:05.

savings. Wielding the veto would be counter-productive in your view?

:13:05.:13:09.

This has to be agreed unoonly by the states and the European

:13:09.:13:13.

Parliament, everyone has a veto in this game. It is not necessarily

:13:13.:13:18.

helpful to start threatening to wield a veto without negotiating.

:13:19.:13:22.

People ask the question why are we part of a system where the budget

:13:22.:13:27.

can only go up, and most people get the money out and it is us that are

:13:27.:13:30.

paying. The difference is small. The budget is relatively small, the

:13:30.:13:33.

difference between the two sides is relatively small. Heads of

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Government wouldn't argue about this sum of money if they were

:13:36.:13:39.

debating a budget at home. They should realise they are not arguing

:13:39.:13:46.

about a huge amount of money It is about politics and saving face? R.

:13:46.:13:50.

All we hear is great stories about waste in the EU, bizarre stories

:13:50.:13:55.

about disappearing sheep and so forth. But these stories are all at

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the margins, aren't they. In many ways, the waste is minimal? Kirsty,

:14:02.:14:09.

the waste is very important, because this is tax-payers' money.

:14:09.:14:14.

For the 18th year in a row, the auditors have refused to clear the

:14:14.:14:18.

budget of the European Union, which means they cannot say that actually,

:14:18.:14:22.

the money was given to the right people for the right purpose. This

:14:22.:14:27.

is very serious, you know. This is tax-payers' money. We can't

:14:27.:14:32.

continue to allow the European Commission to give the money out

:14:32.:14:38.

without controlling how it is used. You know, Greece has received 60

:14:38.:14:44.

billion euros in the last decade in structural funds, where has the 60

:14:44.:14:48.

billion gone. Spain has received 130 billion euros in structural

:14:48.:14:54.

funding, where have these funds gone? This is serious. Because now

:14:54.:14:59.

we have a Europe in crisis and ten years ago, the Lisbon strategy was

:14:59.:15:05.

supposed to make Europe the most evolved economy, state-of-the-art,

:15:05.:15:11.

and there we are, in a deep crisis. Of course this waste, or fraud,

:15:11.:15:16.

because there is fraud. It is very important to consider

:15:16.:15:19.

that. Ralph Brinkhraus, Europe constantly talks about, they are

:15:19.:15:23.

going to reform structures and strategy, and it is always for

:15:23.:15:30.

another day, there is no actual real impetuous for reform? No, no.

:15:30.:15:36.

There is an impetuous for reforms. What we have reached in the last

:15:36.:15:40.

two or three years much, so, I guess, even in Greece, we have some

:15:40.:15:45.

progress, and we have a lot of progress in Portugal, in Ireland,

:15:45.:15:52.

but you have to keep in mind it is a system which consists out of

:15:52.:15:59.

compromises. You have 27 partners at the table, and negotiating. So a

:15:59.:16:03.

fast-moving progress in reforms is very difficult. But it needs to

:16:03.:16:08.

reform the CAP. At one point we had Herman Van Rompuy talking about

:16:08.:16:13.

Britain contributing to its own CAP agricultural rebate. That has been

:16:13.:16:16.

withdrawn from the table now. People will see this as the most

:16:16.:16:25.

extraordinary type of accounting? think that's the agriculture

:16:25.:16:29.

question is a very special question. What we have to keep in mind s that

:16:29.:16:33.

we have parts of Europe where people -- is we have parts of

:16:33.:16:36.

Europe that depend on the culture sector. It is a completely

:16:36.:16:39.

different situation to the UK and parts of Germany. So in organising

:16:39.:16:44.

this big compromise, we have also to spend money for this agriculture

:16:44.:16:47.

sector, unfortunately. We have to organise a decline, this will be

:16:47.:16:51.

the task of the summit. Leaving the CAP aside, that is a very central

:16:51.:16:56.

part of this. The bigger question is, at what point does Britain

:16:56.:17:00.

decide the game's a bogey, perhaps it's time to leave? I think most

:17:00.:17:05.

British people are in that position already. If you look at most of the

:17:05.:17:09.

polls, ignoring the "don't knows", it is almost 2-1 who want to leave

:17:09.:17:13.

the EU. Seeing what is happening with the budget, and the waste and

:17:13.:17:17.

disgraceful overspending by the civil servants. One in six of whom

:17:17.:17:20.

are paid, essentially, more than our Prime Minister, when you take

:17:20.:17:24.

into account all their allowances, it can't go on. If there had been

:17:24.:17:30.

proper reform, just seems like this unwieldy monster, that can't be

:17:30.:17:35.

tamed. It has become even more so in the last ten years. If it isn't

:17:35.:17:41.

tame tamed people will turn their backs on it? There is a lot of

:17:41.:17:43.

disillusionment about the European Union, particularly in this country.

:17:43.:17:46.

What they are talking about in Brussels doesn't address the main

:17:46.:17:49.

question. David Cameron wants to defend the rebate, the French want

:17:49.:17:52.

to defend agriculture, the Germans want to hold the whole budget down.

:17:52.:17:55.

I think they have to have a more intelligent discussion about what

:17:55.:18:00.

the budget is for and what it is spent on. It is not a growth-

:18:00.:18:02.

promoting budget, they are not spending enough on research and

:18:02.:18:06.

development. They shouldn't spend as much on ago culture, they need

:18:07.:18:10.

to look at boosting growth in Europe, which they are not doing,

:18:10.:18:15.

that would be a much more sensible use of time. Isn't the problem here,

:18:15.:18:19.

many people are disillusioned with the European Union, in your view,

:18:19.:18:27.

how damaging would it be to Europe, if Britain decided to call it a

:18:27.:18:37.
:18:37.:18:38.

day? It would be big damage. We really need Britain within the your

:18:38.:18:47.

-- the European Union, we need, as Germans the UK on our side. We have

:18:47.:18:50.

to organise a compromise. In organising a compromise, it is very

:18:50.:18:54.

bad to have a red line at the beginning of the negotiations. What

:18:54.:18:58.

we expect is that we get an open negotiation, and Angela Merkel will

:18:58.:19:01.

do a lot to build a bridge for Britain, and for France, and for

:19:02.:19:06.

the other countries, and I guess at the end of the day, unfortunately

:19:06.:19:12.

not at the end of today, but of some days in the future, we will

:19:12.:19:15.

have the compromise on the budget. The main question is not the budget,

:19:15.:19:19.

main question is to reorganise the European Union, and for this

:19:19.:19:26.

process, it would be a big damage if the UK leaves.

:19:26.:19:32.

The outsider insider, that is the moniker conferred on the new

:19:32.:19:38.

Director-General, Tony Hall, the cross-bench peer, credited with

:19:38.:19:42.

getting the Royal Opera House back in tune. Tony Hall, the only

:19:42.:19:45.

candidate for the job apparently, began as a news trainee 39 years

:19:45.:19:49.

ago, did time as a Newsnight producer, and was a senior

:19:49.:19:56.

executive when he left for cor vant garden. A "difficult few weeks", he

:19:56.:20:00.

described the organisation's current travails, he said he wanted

:20:00.:20:09.

to lead a world Class B BC. It's a new act in the drama at the

:20:09.:20:19.
:20:19.:20:22.

BBC. With Baron Patten of Barnes, introducing Baron Hall of Covent

:20:22.:20:32.
:20:32.:20:32.

Garden, Don Chris and Don Tony. has take an lot to drag me from

:20:32.:20:36.

Covent Garden. It has been a tough few weeks for this organisation, I

:20:36.:20:41.

know we can get through it by listening carefully and thinking

:20:41.:20:45.

carefully about what we do next. I'm absolutely committed to our

:20:45.:20:48.

news operation as an absolute world-beater. Nobody can do this on

:20:48.:20:51.

their own. If you are going to run a creative organisation, you need a

:20:51.:20:56.

team, I know that from my earliest days as a news trainee in this

:20:56.:21:01.

organisation, through to my latter days running the BBC News, through

:21:01.:21:11.
:21:11.:21:12.

to now at the Royal Opera House. Tony Hall is billed as man who

:21:12.:21:15.

knows his way around a BBC News room, even a brand new one like

:21:15.:21:20.

this. But who also has experience at another high-profile institution,

:21:20.:21:25.

the Royal Opera House. His admirers at the BBC say he's an outsider who

:21:25.:21:29.

used to be an insider. Will Hall be able to stick around long enough

:21:29.:21:36.

for a glorious swan song? REPORTER: Lord Patten, have you

:21:36.:21:42.

been able to offer Lord Hall any security of tenure, some feel it is

:21:42.:21:51.

getting like Chelsea round here? haven't seen myself in Anwar

:21:51.:21:54.

Abramvich role, because my bank balance and his are very different,

:21:54.:21:59.

not least. When you say it is getting like Chelsea round here,

:21:59.:22:06.

how many managers of Chelsea in the Abramavich era, seven, eight, we

:22:06.:22:10.

have had, unfortunately, two Director-Generals in the last nine

:22:10.:22:20.

years. So, it is some way behind Chelsea. I hope that this boss will

:22:20.:22:24.

win a few league titles and European competitions as well.

:22:24.:22:29.

It is less than a fortnight since the BBC was saying a golden goodbye

:22:29.:22:33.

to George Entwistle, after just 54 days in the top job.

:22:33.:22:38.

A new crisis for Newsnight. He was criticised for his handling of a

:22:38.:22:41.

crisis surrounding coverage of child abuse allegations by

:22:41.:22:46.

Newsnight. As you might expect, there is no shortage of advice for

:22:46.:22:50.

the new DG. Obviously he has to set about restoring trust and

:22:50.:22:53.

confidence in the BBC. That particularly applies to the BBC's

:22:54.:22:59.

news output and its current affairs. Already some steps have been taken

:23:00.:23:02.

to more clearly define the responsibilities, and to put in

:23:02.:23:06.

place the editorial safeguards, that is going to be a long process,

:23:06.:23:09.

and Tony Hall, having run the news division, does have the experience

:23:09.:23:14.

perhaps to do that. So what's the score with the new

:23:14.:23:20.

DG? Born in Birkenhead, Tony Hall joined the BBC as a trainee almost

:23:20.:23:26.

40 years a he later launched Radio Five Live, the BBC News channel,

:23:26.:23:32.

and BBC Online. In 199 he applied for the top job but lost out to

:23:32.:23:36.

Greg Dyke, two years later he became chief executive at the Royal

:23:36.:23:41.

Opera House, where he's credited with opening up the art form to a

:23:41.:23:45.

wider audience. When the DG job came up again last year, Hall

:23:45.:23:51.

reportedly said he was too old, make that "experience", a year now

:23:51.:23:55.

he's the top man. If you are thinking the Opera House sounds

:23:55.:24:00.

like a cushy berth, you would be dead wrong, according to our man in

:24:00.:24:10.
:24:10.:24:11.

the stalls. It could be far from luvvie duvvey back stage. One saw a

:24:11.:24:14.

tranquillisation at the Royal Opera House, externally it was less

:24:14.:24:17.

interesting because internally people were working together. His

:24:17.:24:20.

great gift is to get people around the table and remind them they are

:24:20.:24:24.

a team. If they work together they will achieve more. So it's back to

:24:24.:24:29.

the future for the BBC and the long-serving Hall, in the middle

:24:29.:24:32.

here. Major challenges await. biggest question marks there will

:24:32.:24:36.

be over the level at which the license fee will be set. Whether it

:24:36.:24:40.

is at the current rate, by delivers �3.6 billion a year, and the other

:24:40.:24:44.

big question will be over the governance of the BBC. Whether you

:24:44.:24:50.

really do need a Trust and a chairman, on the one hand, who are

:24:50.:24:54.

apparently the regulator, although it is not utterly clear if they are

:24:54.:24:58.

also the cheerleader. Whether you also then want an executive board,

:24:58.:25:03.

with non-executive boards that sits with the Director-General. Are you

:25:03.:25:08.

staying awake for this, this is positively Baroque this system.

:25:08.:25:12.

Part of the battle in the performing arts is know your lines

:25:12.:25:17.

and don't trip over the furniture. It is a useful lesson that Tony

:25:17.:25:21.

Hall brings from Covent Garden to the upper reaches of the BBC.

:25:21.:25:26.

Our political editor is here. What's the Tony Hall effect in

:25:26.:25:28.

Downing Street? Peace has broken out, across Downing Street, but

:25:28.:25:32.

also the Labour Party. They are quite happy. Some people are

:25:32.:25:37.

concerned at the alarcity of the appointment, but some are saying,

:25:37.:25:42.

get a life. That is the media story, but the Government is much less

:25:42.:25:44.

anxious about what is happening? The story that is racking the best

:25:45.:25:49.

minds in Britain, is how you respond to what we now know is the

:25:49.:25:56.

imminent publication of the Levin report, which is Lord Justice

:25:56.:25:59.

Leveson's inquiry into media standards in this country. David

:25:59.:26:03.

Cameron has sight of it, he knows what where it will end up. He's

:26:03.:26:06.

going up and down the land talking to newspaper editors looking at

:26:06.:26:10.

room for manoeuvre. It is tiny. On the one hand you have the Liberal

:26:10.:26:15.

Democrats and the victims of phone hacking and the Labour Party. And

:26:15.:26:18.

MPs who think it is time to underpin the regulation of the

:26:18.:26:23.

press in law. On the other hand you have incredibly muscular press

:26:23.:26:27.

barons, you have both the Prime Minister's closest allies, Michael

:26:27.:26:31.

Gove, and his closest rival, Boris Johnson, who in the last 24 hours

:26:31.:26:34.

have left David Cameron in no uncertain terms about where they

:26:34.:26:38.

want him to end up, it is a small amount of room for manoeuvre. A few

:26:38.:26:42.

things to leave the viewers with. I don't think it is at all-clear cut,

:26:42.:26:45.

inside Downing Street even over what they will do. The first thing,

:26:45.:26:48.

if it comes to a vote whether they would necessarily lose if David

:26:48.:26:53.

Cameron said I can't that far, I can't put any legal status to this.

:26:53.:26:57.

There will be some Labour people who will fall away from Ed

:26:57.:27:00.

Miliband's leadership and say I'm uncomfortable with that as well. If

:27:00.:27:03.

he did lose in the Commons, how would it be reported when you have

:27:03.:27:06.

many in the press who will say this is massive leadership from David

:27:06.:27:10.

Cameron, rather than a big defeat from him. The last thing is, Lord

:27:10.:27:14.

Leveson has always said, Lord Justice Leveson has always said he

:27:14.:27:17.

doesn't want his report to be another door stop, he doesn't want

:27:17.:27:22.

it to be another irrelevant inquiry, so it isn't beyond the realms of

:27:22.:27:25.

possibility that he comes forward with something that David Cameron

:27:25.:27:29.

can actually implement. The next Archbishop of Canterbury,

:27:29.:27:32.

Justin Welby, is apparently a skilled conflict negotiator. So,

:27:32.:27:36.

when he said today he was confident the Church of England will

:27:36.:27:40.

concecrate a female bishop, was this an opening gambit for fresh

:27:40.:27:43.

debate within the Church of England, or was he referring to the move by

:27:43.:27:46.

MPs to force change on the grounds of sex discrimination. He was

:27:46.:27:50.

speaking on a visit to Nigeria, to promote religious reconciliation,

:27:50.:27:55.

while at home, parliament was being called to arms.

:27:55.:28:00.

Lord hear us. Lord graciously hear us. The decision of the Church of

:28:00.:28:04.

England has become a debate far beyond the church's walls. There is

:28:04.:28:07.

now the very really prospect of Tuesday's vote souring the

:28:07.:28:11.

relationship between church and state. The Labour MP, Frank Field,

:28:11.:28:17.

is determined that the church be striped of its exemption from sex

:28:17.:28:23.

discrimination laws, an exemption in the Eqality Act designed to stop

:28:23.:28:27.

causing offence on the grounds of gender or belief. That would

:28:27.:28:30.

prevent women from becoming bishops. There are signs the Government is

:28:30.:28:34.

losing patience with the church. I'm making it clear this is not an

:28:34.:28:38.

issue that can be parked, it is not an issue that the Church of England

:28:38.:28:41.

can now ignore for the next two or three years, hope it will go away

:28:41.:28:50.

until after the next General Synod elections, it has to be resolved as

:28:50.:28:55.

soon as possible. With us from Liverpool is Frank Field who

:28:55.:28:59.

introduced a bill to end the Church of England's exemption from

:28:59.:29:03.

equality law, a member of the House of layity, who voted on this week's

:29:03.:29:12.

-- House of layy, who voted on this week's proposal on women bishops.

:29:12.:29:14.

Tonight it is the cultural and political terms we are talking

:29:14.:29:24.
:29:24.:29:25.

about. Why is this any of your business as an MP? We are talking

:29:25.:29:32.

about a church that has been created on the side of the state,

:29:32.:29:36.

and it wants to make sure the church doesn't behave in an absurd

:29:36.:29:40.

manner. Most people will think its actions over the last few days show

:29:40.:29:45.

a real lack of politics in the church. Why did the reformers fail.

:29:45.:29:50.

They have some serious questions to answer here. To satisfy those who

:29:50.:29:55.

were upset and disquieted by the proposal for reform. Let me put

:29:55.:30:01.

this to my other guest. An absurd manner, do you think MPs have a

:30:01.:30:04.

place in this. Afterall the Church of England is the established

:30:05.:30:08.

church there are bishops who sit and make contributions to laws in

:30:08.:30:11.

the House of Lords? It is the established church, that is true.

:30:11.:30:14.

But I think it is really important, isn't it, that the church and the

:30:14.:30:17.

state, reremember they are two different things. It is the

:30:17.:30:21.

established church, not a state church. It is important that the

:30:21.:30:28.

church is able to make its own laws. So, you believe that Frank Field

:30:28.:30:33.

has absolutely no locus in this debate about women bishops? It is

:30:33.:30:39.

important we listen to society, but our God is not parliament. Frank

:30:39.:30:42.

Field. Do you believe this is a special case, as it were, because

:30:42.:30:47.

the Church of England is established church. Afterall, if

:30:48.:30:52.

you were going to make exemptions, presumably other religions would be

:30:52.:30:56.

involved too, once you start to unpick these exemptions, where do

:30:56.:31:01.

you stop? Well, British politics is never like that, and normally you

:31:01.:31:05.

just give a push here and pull there. I agree with Lucy's last

:31:05.:31:11.

comment, that God is not parliament. Nevertheless, the church has

:31:11.:31:17.

certain public functions to carry out. If we look at the, you build

:31:18.:31:23.

this with the new Archbishop of Canterbury. At the moment we choose

:31:23.:31:27.

from half the population in choosing an Archbishop of

:31:27.:31:31.

Canterbury. They were so stacked with talent this time round, that

:31:31.:31:35.

one of the bishops, who had hardly got his robes on, as a bishop, was

:31:35.:31:41.

actually chosen to fulfil that post. So it would suggest, wouldn't it,

:31:41.:31:47.

that events are trying to teach us a lesson here. That it might well

:31:47.:31:50.

be well over time before we actually look to the talents of the

:31:50.:31:54.

other half of the population, when it comes to a leadership role. The

:31:54.:31:58.

crucial question is not bishops or this that or the other, the crucial

:31:58.:32:06.

question was decided decades ago, when the church decided there was

:32:06.:32:08.

no theological objection to concecrating women as priests, that

:32:08.:32:11.

is the key function in the church. Other people may have other

:32:11.:32:16.

responsibilities, such as being Archdeacons or being bishops or

:32:16.:32:19.

Archbishops, the argument that there is something wrong with women

:32:19.:32:23.

taking these roles was decided by the church a long time ago.

:32:23.:32:27.

The argument there is something wrong with women taking the roles

:32:27.:32:32.

of Bishop, puts you out of step with, it seems to me, a lot of

:32:32.:32:36.

opinion outside the church in this country, that you have set

:32:36.:32:39.

yourselves apart, and that will give you a fundamental problem,

:32:39.:32:42.

won't it, in recruiting more women for the church? It is interesting

:32:42.:32:47.

what we just heard. It is true, that back in 1975, General Synod

:32:47.:32:57.
:32:57.:32:58.

did vote. But at that point 40%. it hasn't gone first? 40% House of

:32:58.:33:02.

Laity voted against that then. We have a similar proportion of the

:33:02.:33:05.

House of Laity saying the same thing now, it is theological

:33:05.:33:09.

conviction. This perhaps is not about theological convictions, what

:33:09.:33:15.

will happen now, if there was a vote, Frank Field brings a bill in,

:33:15.:33:19.

and there is a vote to remove that exemption from you, and you are

:33:19.:33:21.

absolutely forced to have women bishops, what would happen to the

:33:21.:33:26.

church? It would be very, very sad. I think it would be the end of

:33:26.:33:29.

religious freedom in this country, in that sense. We would be starting

:33:29.:33:33.

to say that what we protect very, very clearly within the equalities

:33:33.:33:37.

act, in fact, that religious freedom is very important, we would

:33:37.:33:42.

be some how overruling that. Frank Field, we don't have long, are we

:33:42.:33:48.

on the way to disestablishment? at all, the real, I think, the real

:33:48.:33:52.

issue, Lucy is the reformers were ungracious and ungenerous in

:33:52.:33:55.

meeting the objections that many in your position actually hold. My

:33:56.:34:01.

advice to them, which was ignored such as it was, was that the

:34:01.:34:07.

crucial thing to establish is the principle of women bishops, whether

:34:07.:34:11.

they are curtailed in certain ways, that doesn't really matter. One

:34:11.:34:15.

should actually stuff the teeth of the, the mouths of the opposition

:34:15.:34:18.

with gold, to actually get the major reform through. They failed

:34:18.:34:24.

to do that. I think now the church must very quickly reconvene on this

:34:24.:34:28.

issue, listen very carefully to those that it failed to persuade,

:34:28.:34:31.

and meet them in those objections, and get the general principle

:34:31.:34:34.

established. I think that could be done very quickly. Do you think it

:34:34.:34:37.

can be done? I think that is absolutely right. We are in

:34:37.:34:41.

complete agreement here. Nobody voted against women bishops at the

:34:41.:34:46.

beginning of this week, everyone voted against a particular measure.

:34:46.:34:50.

Next March is ten years since the invasion of Iraq. Since then the

:34:50.:34:54.

country has experienced occupation and years of sectarian violence.

:34:54.:35:00.

The Prime Minister is now a Shia Muslim, after decades of Saddam

:35:00.:35:04.

Hussein's ba'athist party rule of minority Sunnis. The tension

:35:04.:35:08.

between the two groups has not gone away. We have been to Iraq to test

:35:08.:35:13.

attitudes in both communities, to other Middle East conflicts

:35:13.:35:16.

characterised by sectarian division, like Syria, and to report on life

:35:16.:35:22.

itself in Iraq. An unlikely love story, and an

:35:22.:35:28.

unlikely romantic hero. TRANSLATION: I used to drive a cab,

:35:28.:35:34.

I saw her, I drive her to work and home. I felt I had to speak to her.

:35:34.:35:38.

Day after day, I tell her I loved her.

:35:38.:35:43.

At the height of Iraq's civil war, Hassan and Sara defied the world

:35:43.:35:50.

around them to be together. TRANSLATION: Shia, Sunni, whatever,

:35:50.:35:57.

I want this girl, they said she was not my kind, she is Shia. I said,

:35:57.:36:06.

no, either her or no-one. TRANSLATION: One of my sisters

:36:06.:36:09.

called me and said if you don't leave him I won't speak to you, and

:36:09.:36:13.

my husband will leave me, do you accept my children and I will be

:36:13.:36:23.
:36:23.:36:23.

thrown out of our home. We stayed in the car just crying.

:36:23.:36:27.

Harder times lay ahead, after Sara lost her leg in a bombing two years

:36:27.:36:34.

ago. But still.

:36:34.:36:38.

Tran # We have a crazy love # We have a crazy love

:36:38.:36:43.

In a way, the story of Hassan and Sara is snot just a triumph of love

:36:43.:36:48.

over hate. But of ordinary people against powerful forces around them.

:36:48.:36:51.

A great sectarian divide is taking root in the region. More than ever

:36:52.:36:56.

before, it is affecting the behaviour of states, and the way

:36:56.:37:00.

people think. Most dangerously it looks more and more like a zero sum

:37:00.:37:07.

game, where one side's gain is the other side's loss.

:37:07.:37:11.

This is Fallujah. It is saw some of the worst fighting during the war,

:37:11.:37:16.

and the scars are still visible. It is still unstable, and many here

:37:16.:37:25.

don't feel part of the new Iraq. Curious to see a TV crew, this man

:37:25.:37:29.

asks me what we are doing here. Exploring Iraq's sectarian division,

:37:29.:37:36.

I explain. He assures me it is all gone, no more trouble.

:37:36.:37:40.

If only it were that simple. A lot of trouble seems to be lurking just

:37:40.:37:49.

around the corner. Abu Ahmed is in the free Iraqi army,

:37:49.:37:55.

formed to support the Free Syrian Army.

:37:55.:38:01.

TRANSLATION: We share the same goal, to Shi'ite expansion in the region,

:38:01.:38:06.

to promote it, we support our brothers in certain ways, weapons

:38:06.:38:11.

and fighters. Just like others support the regime.

:38:12.:38:17.

It is in Iraq that he has got scores to settle.

:38:17.:38:22.

TRANSLATION: After the fall of Sayyed Sadr al-Din al-Qu, Iraq will

:38:22.:38:27.

have its turn, today Sadik, tomorrow Nouri al-Maliki, soon God

:38:28.:38:36.

welling, with with the grace of God, they will fall too.

:38:36.:38:40.

If his vision is to come true, it is young men like these who might

:38:40.:38:44.

have to act it out. In history class, these boys learn about

:38:44.:38:49.

struggles to control Iraq, four centuries ago.

:38:50.:38:53.

But in the playground, they just want to have some fun. They were

:38:53.:38:59.

happy to welcome an outsider. To them, there are more important

:38:59.:39:09.
:39:09.:39:12.

divisions than Sunni and Shia. Barcelona. Barca. Hello, Barca? But

:39:12.:39:17.

they do feel stuck. They only play here in school, and because of the

:39:17.:39:20.

security situation don't often meet kids from other parts of the

:39:20.:39:29.

country. They are not the only ones who feel trapped. Time has taken

:39:29.:39:33.

its told toll on Abu, since the days he was an officer in the

:39:33.:39:37.

former Iraqi army. He has been kept out of work, as the Government

:39:37.:39:40.

sought a clean break with the former regime.

:39:40.:39:44.

TRANSLATION: When you throw me away with all my service to Iraq, and

:39:44.:39:49.

never ask me to come back, or give me my rights, what do you expect?

:39:49.:39:55.

That I will accept? The people who built Iraq, overnight, just gone

:39:55.:40:03.

with the wind, left to beg, we do not beg we are Iraqis with our

:40:03.:40:07.

heads held high. So many like him were shut out as the new Iraq

:40:07.:40:13.

emerge the. But others, long oppressed -- emerged. But others,

:40:13.:40:18.

long oppressed under ba'athist rule, finally found their place. Across

:40:18.:40:23.

Iraq there is a sense of resurgence in Shia pride. Nowhere more so than

:40:23.:40:28.

here in Najaf. Shia clerics look down on you from everywhere, the

:40:28.:40:34.

colours on full display. Suppressed under Saddam, this place brims with

:40:34.:40:40.

new-found confidence. The whole city centres around this, the Imam

:40:40.:40:45.

Ali Shrine, one of the holyist places for Shia Muslims, drawing

:40:45.:40:53.

millions of visitors every year. TRANSLATION: It gave me gooz bumps,

:40:53.:40:57.

a rush of faith and had you mality, like entering one of the gates of

:40:57.:41:06.

heaven. Here Shia show their devotion to

:41:06.:41:12.

Iman Ali, they believe he should have succeeded the prophet. The

:41:12.:41:17.

battle was at the heart of the Sunni Shia divide. Today the

:41:17.:41:21.

fateful look to the clerics for guidance about everything, that

:41:21.:41:23.

gives them a lot of influence. Saddam Hussein feared their power

:41:23.:41:28.

so much that he killed many of them. Now they are on the rise again. And

:41:28.:41:37.

they say it is not a problem. TRANSLATION: Everyone, Christians,

:41:37.:41:45.

Sunni, Shia, won't turn away the cleric leadership because it is

:41:46.:41:49.

above sectarian, the fears are from other practices that could be

:41:49.:41:53.

called sectarian. The clerics in Iran practice leadership in one way,

:41:53.:42:00.

here in Iraq it cannot be the same. Whether or not that calms Sunni

:42:00.:42:04.

fears, out on the streets, Shia fears are simmering too. People

:42:04.:42:09.

hesitate to talk about Iraq's sectarian divide. But they are all

:42:09.:42:17.

fired up about Syria. TRANSLATION: It is a Wahaby war against Shia

:42:17.:42:21.

holy places, this mantles me. TRANSLATION: I will go fight in

:42:21.:42:28.

Syria, this man says, because it is the Shia who are the targets.

:42:28.:42:33.

This isn't just the magnet for the living, but also for the dead. This

:42:33.:42:39.

is the world's largest cemetery. Everyone wants to be buried here in

:42:39.:42:43.

holy soil. For a place of death, it strikes me

:42:43.:42:48.

how full of life it is. This doesn't stop, night and day, every

:42:48.:42:51.

day. The visitors keep coming to bury their dead, and to visit the

:42:51.:42:56.

family dead, from all over the Islamic world, and sometimes beyond,

:42:56.:43:01.

and this huge cemetery keeps on expanding, in all directions.

:43:01.:43:08.

Business is booming for the flower sellers, the motorcycle taxies, and,

:43:08.:43:12.

of course, the undertakers. Abu Saif has been burying people here

:43:12.:43:17.

most of his life. At the height of Iraq's civil war, he would bury

:43:17.:43:21.

hundreds a day. That's over in Iraq, he said, but a

:43:21.:43:25.

nasty wind is blowing from Syria. Lately, he's received bodies from

:43:25.:43:32.

across the border. TRANSLATION: It is my hope this

:43:32.:43:35.

phenomenon will disappear, it divides people T has nothing to do

:43:35.:43:42.

with Islam. I can only recite the word of Iman Ali, "people are

:43:42.:43:48.

either your brothers in religion or your equal in creation".

:43:48.:43:54.

First Iraq, now Syria. Who you are can still get you killed. The grief,

:43:54.:43:59.

too often, only gives way to scavengence.

:43:59.:44:06.

-- scavengence. Vengence. There are places where

:44:06.:44:15.

none of this matters. Here you can't tell who is Sunni or Shia, it

:44:15.:44:20.

is just Iraqis out for some fun. It may be a bit crowded for Sara and

:44:20.:44:26.

Hassan, they prefer their own little spot bit river.

:44:26.:44:31.

-- by the river. TRANSLATION: Iraqis, when we love, if the other

:44:31.:44:36.

person is sincere, we sacrifice for them. Hassan sacrificed, Sara

:44:36.:44:38.

sacrificed, thank God we are unshakeable, nothing can drive us

:44:39.:44:46.

apart. Sectarian war is looming again. It

:44:46.:44:51.

feeds on hatred and division. It tears people apart. Hope comes in

:44:51.:44:55.

the bonds that hold together, and in those who choose a different

:44:55.:45:04.

path. Tomorrow morning's front pages, we

:45:04.:45:14.
:45:14.:45:38.

That's just about all we have time for tonight. Tonight is

:45:38.:45:42.

thanksgiving in America, which appropriately enough was started by

:45:42.:45:45.

early settlers, who were unhappy with the decisions of the Church of

:45:45.:45:55.
:45:55.:46:23.

With that, I think we are going to There is still some atrocious

:46:23.:46:27.

weather out and about across England and Wales, heavy showers

:46:27.:46:30.

following behind the flood line number.

:46:30.:46:34.

Even after the rain ease, the rain will filter into the river systems.

:46:34.:46:37.

Some very nasty weather to come. Soggy across the south-east first

:46:37.:46:41.

thing in the morning as well. But, for many much dryer, the winds will

:46:41.:46:45.

have eased significant loo, after pretty wet and windy nights across

:46:45.:46:49.

the south-east. It will take a while for that rain to drag its

:46:49.:46:52.

heels, behind it there are showers around, it is not all together dry.

:46:52.:46:56.

But it will be a lot dryer than it has been today across the south

:46:56.:47:00.

west of England, across the Midland, Wales and northern England. It will

:47:00.:47:03.

be a pestering of showers, particularly across the likes of

:47:03.:47:07.

Northern Ireland, there could be some hail, thunder there, across

:47:07.:47:10.

the Scottish Highlands some snow as well. A keen breeze, again dryer,

:47:11.:47:14.

than it has been through the day today. Especially where those areas

:47:14.:47:19.

are flooded. Do keep tuned to the forecast if you are at all

:47:19.:47:25.

concerned. Still some atro sure weather out. It is only a brief --

:47:25.:47:31.

atrocious weather around. It is only a brief dry spell, it is more

:47:32.:47:35.

again on the weekend. Raint on Sunday, or Saturday night, more

:47:35.:47:39.

very wet and windy weather is due across the southern half of the

:47:39.:47:41.

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