22/11/2012 Newsnight


In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark.

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Europe is looking very disunited tonight over whether the EU budget


should be just over a trillion euros in the next seven years, or a


shade less. For specifically, David Cameron is the leader going out on


a limb, desperate to bring back a deal that will keep the country and


his party happy. Europe held hostage by Britain,


screams the papers, but here in Brussels, there appear signs they


are about to cough up the randsom. We have guest -- guests who love


the European Union and hate it. We will discuss.


Tonight the BBC chooses the man from the opera to conduct the


mission. Does the BBC's new leading man know what he's getting himself


into. REPORTER: Have you been able to offer Lord Hall any security of


tenure, some people it is getting like Chelsea around here!


Are church and state about to collide, should parliament force


the Church of England to have women bishops, we will talk to the


politician who is going to try. The world's largest cemetery in


Iraq, isn't short of patronss, living or dead, but does the great


sectarian divide between Shia and Sunni, threaten more trouble for


Iraq and the Middle East. Good evening. In the manner which makes


the European Union a by-word for bold, dynamic leadership, the


meetings in Brussels are already running four hours late, supper


will start at midnight, and a deal, if there is one, isn't expected


until well into the bleary dawn, and maybe another eurofudge will


come out of it. David Cameron is caught between the rock, built off


European leaders, most of whom want a budget increase, and the hard


place, the restless parliament who say they will only accept a cut.


Vasily Grossman disappeared into the long dark tunnel of Belgium. In


all the excitement about the Diamond Jubilee, we have, perhaps,


missed another important 60th anniversary, this year, we are


"celebrating", if that is the right word, six decades of eurosummits.


Much of it hasn't changed, more briefings, more waiting, and more


meetings. For journalists, the sheer mental effort of trying to


follow what on earth is going on. Still, at least this one is about


something everyone can understand, it is about money. Who pays and how


much. David Cameron is clear that a rise


in the EU's budget is totally unacceptable. No, I'm not happy at


all. These are very important negotiations, clearly at a time


when we are making difficult decisions at home over public


spending t would be quite wrong, it is quite wrong for proposal force


this increased extra spending in the EU. We are going to be


negotiating very hard for a good deal for Britain's tax-payers and


for Europe's tax-payers, and to keep the British rebate. Although


some other European countries, lick Germany and Netherlands, who are,


like us, net contributor, support calls for a cut, others do not.


TRANSLATION: It is a shame for the British Europe is primarily a


single market, for me, for Belgium, Europe is more about solidarity and


prosperity for all Europeans. So I will plead with some such as David


Cameron for a more ambition budget. Is this -- ambitious budget. Is


this possible? We will see, I hope other countries such as Italy and


France will support us in this ambitious budget.


Today is taken up with individual meetings, known in the EU jargon as


confessionals, where each country, starting this morning with the UK,


makes its case to the EU Commission and council.


One by one, the countries go in for their 15-minute budget pitch.


So what do we know about the position so far? The commission


initially proposed a 1,025 billion euro budget. The council President,


Herman Van Rompuy, yesterday amended it to 973 billion, Britain


wants a freeze, something like 825 billion. However, let's put those


numbers in perspective, if we compare the most anyone is asking


Britain to pay, with what David Cameron is saying he's prepared to


pay, it probably boils down to something like �00 million per year.


Easily affordable in terms of overall Government spending. No,


this is really about politics. David Cameron thinks the public


have had enough of Europe, and he as under pressure from his party to


draw a line. Under the council President's


proposal, 309 billion would be spent on cohesion, that includes


help for less developed regions of Europe. 5 billion would be spent on


outside relation -- 65 billion would be spent on outside relations,


including aid and help for countries who want to join. The


biggest single item in the proposed budget is agriculture and fisheries,


364 billion euros, more than a third of the entire budget.


In Britain, big beneficiaries of the budget are big landowners, who,


like the Queen, over the last decade she has received �7 million


of EU money. EU spending is an easy political target. A report


published today says 150,000 euros was spent on a research project for


the social relevance of coffee. 58,000 euros for a chilli pepper


festival, 196,000 euros for a onadm puppet axe cad me. The budget is


subject -- a nomad puppet academy. The budget is subject to a lot of


waste. A lot of money goes to landowners, irrespective of what


they do with the land, even if they are not in any meaningful economic


activity they still get support. Another huge chunk of the budget


goes to recycling cash between some of the richer member states, in


what is known as regional or structure funds, at a huge


administrationive and opportunity cost. So, no, the EU budget is not


good value for money. Part of the political positioning before a


summit like this, is to bang the table a bit, and threaten to use


the veto, David Cameron will know if he vetos an EU budget deal, not


only will it not turn off the tap of EU spending, actually Britain


could end up paying more. We are used to seeing pictures of


budget deadlock in the US, where Congress has the power to shut down


the Government. Teachers and civil servants get sacked and everything


closes. That is not what happens in Europe. Even if no budget deal is


reached. If there isn't a deal in time for this new seven-year


programme to come into effect. What they would do is simply roll over


the existing budgets. That would be based on next year's figures, that


is the end of the currenting budgeting figures, that would leave


a higher level of spending than is currently proposed with the


proposal on the table. The risk is you block a deal and end up paying


more under this rolling programme. And in the meantime we wait, like


countless others before, waiting for something to happen, quite what,


we don't know yet. But, this can't go on forever, can it? Perhaps


David could tell us that. What is the latest David? Well, the latest


is, Kirsty, in the last few minutes, they have started their working


dinner to negotiate their positions after that extensive day of


bilaterals, and Herman Van Rompuy began with a little joke. He said


thank goodness owe only have it once every - we only have this once


every seven years. Get this for symbolism, there is no din, they


are having cold cuts. Tonight I have to say the billing of this


summit, 26 against 1 David Cameron isolated. It doesn't feel like that


now. There is a lot of movement towards the British position,


particularly from the council President, Herman Van Rompuy.


Although the deal he proposed was rejected by David Cameron, it is a


lot closer to what David Cameron is after. The people looking more


isolated are the French. Normally going into a summit like this, the


French and germs will meet four or five days prior and they will agree


a common position. That hasn't happened now, Francois Hollande is


the guy with trouble if he goes back with this deal, because it


requires him to take a big cut on that Common Agricultural Policy, he


would be in great difficulties if he were to accept that. What


happens now? They will digest their cold cuts, they will also digest


what Herman Van Rompuy has to say. Most likely they will go back to


their hotels tonight, and come back tomorrow to continue negotiations.


They might go through the night, but probably they will come back


tomorrow. There is nothing else on the agenda for tomorrow. In the


meantime, I will leave you with another bit of symbolism. On the


screens behind me, just before you came to me, was a Public


Information message that seemed to have a bit of Thatcherite symbolism,


it said "a handbag has been found"! Not wielded yet.


In Berlin, Ralph Brinkhraus is a German MP in the CDU party, and


sits in the Bundestag Finance Committee. We're joined by Marta


Andreasen a UK Independence Party MEP, she was the first chief


accountant of the European Commission. John Peet is the Europe


editor of the Economist Magazine, and the Conservative MP, Mark


Reckless, tabled a rebel amendment last month, calling for the


Government to demand a real-terms cut in the EU budget.


Mark Reckless, you wanted a real- terms cut, I don't think you are


going to get it? There is a chance we will get it. There is not that


much difference between a freeze and a small cut. I think what


Europe is now understanding is the strength of feeling in the UK, and


our parliament has voted that there will be a cut, and we have to have


legislation to implement it. If there is not, then Europe could be


operating without a budget. Ralph Brinkhraus, this is all about


atmosphere, because countries all over the European Union are having


to slash their budgets, EU citizens are facing horrific austerity in


some countries, and yet, it just looks like the EU is going merrily


on and agreeing to increase its budget, perhaps? Yes, it is a very


difficult thing to communicate to the people within Europe. But there


are strong particular interests within the countries, so for


example in the peripherals, in the south of Europe, and even in the


east of Europe, people are talking about subsidies coming from the


European Union. We have the agriculture problem in France, and


we have this group consisting of Germany, UK and Swede and


Nethelands who want to freeze and - - Sweden and Netherlands who want


to freeze or cut the budget. If you are sitting in Greece, and facing


huge austerity, you don't think the European Union is doing anything


for you at all? Yes, I think the European Union is doing a lot for


Greece, and there are a lot of funds that Greece does participate


in. I guess it is the Government there has a strong interest in a


raise of the budget, and not in a cut or a freeze.


Why do you think, it may not be the case, David says tonight there


seems to be some kind of shift, all too often it looks like Britain


doesn't win the arguments? I think there are two reasons why Britain


doesn't win the arguments, the most important reason is they are not


very good at seeking allies. I'm afraid we have seen this before


with David Cameron,s had approach to most summits is to go into


summits threaten to go veelt toe things, if you threaten -- veto


things. If you threat an veto where you have to agree on things you


won't be very popular. Do you think it is because he's not very well


versed in Europe, he doesn't quite understand the communication


system? He's under pressure, frank lie, from people like Mark Reckless.


Is -- frankly, from people like Mark Reckless. His party is saying


please go in, and Boris Johnson is saying threaten to veto things. He


has a lot of pressure to go in and threaten to veto. In Brussels going


in to threaten to veto is not very good for a negotiation that


requires an answer at the end of the nigh.


Ultimately if David Cameron doesn't veto it, it may be parliament vetos.


The rest of the EU needs to understand that this country is fed


up to the back teeth of the EU paying all this money in, if they


want to us pay anything into it, they have to get with it and make


savings. Wielding the veto would be counter-productive in your view?


This has to be agreed unoonly by the states and the European


Parliament, everyone has a veto in this game. It is not necessarily


helpful to start threatening to wield a veto without negotiating.


People ask the question why are we part of a system where the budget


can only go up, and most people get the money out and it is us that are


paying. The difference is small. The budget is relatively small, the


difference between the two sides is relatively small. Heads of


Government wouldn't argue about this sum of money if they were


debating a budget at home. They should realise they are not arguing


about a huge amount of money It is about politics and saving face? R.


All we hear is great stories about waste in the EU, bizarre stories


about disappearing sheep and so forth. But these stories are all at


the margins, aren't they. In many ways, the waste is minimal? Kirsty,


the waste is very important, because this is tax-payers' money.


For the 18th year in a row, the auditors have refused to clear the


budget of the European Union, which means they cannot say that actually,


the money was given to the right people for the right purpose. This


is very serious, you know. This is tax-payers' money. We can't


continue to allow the European Commission to give the money out


without controlling how it is used. You know, Greece has received 60


billion euros in the last decade in structural funds, where has the 60


billion gone. Spain has received 130 billion euros in structural


funding, where have these funds gone? This is serious. Because now


we have a Europe in crisis and ten years ago, the Lisbon strategy was


supposed to make Europe the most evolved economy, state-of-the-art,


and there we are, in a deep crisis. Of course this waste, or fraud,


because there is fraud. It is very important to consider


that. Ralph Brinkhraus, Europe constantly talks about, they are


going to reform structures and strategy, and it is always for


another day, there is no actual real impetuous for reform? No, no.


There is an impetuous for reforms. What we have reached in the last


two or three years much, so, I guess, even in Greece, we have some


progress, and we have a lot of progress in Portugal, in Ireland,


but you have to keep in mind it is a system which consists out of


compromises. You have 27 partners at the table, and negotiating. So a


fast-moving progress in reforms is very difficult. But it needs to


reform the CAP. At one point we had Herman Van Rompuy talking about


Britain contributing to its own CAP agricultural rebate. That has been


withdrawn from the table now. People will see this as the most


extraordinary type of accounting? think that's the agriculture


question is a very special question. What we have to keep in mind s that


we have parts of Europe where people -- is we have parts of


Europe that depend on the culture sector. It is a completely


different situation to the UK and parts of Germany. So in organising


this big compromise, we have also to spend money for this agriculture


sector, unfortunately. We have to organise a decline, this will be


the task of the summit. Leaving the CAP aside, that is a very central


part of this. The bigger question is, at what point does Britain


decide the game's a bogey, perhaps it's time to leave? I think most


British people are in that position already. If you look at most of the


polls, ignoring the "don't knows", it is almost 2-1 who want to leave


the EU. Seeing what is happening with the budget, and the waste and


disgraceful overspending by the civil servants. One in six of whom


are paid, essentially, more than our Prime Minister, when you take


into account all their allowances, it can't go on. If there had been


proper reform, just seems like this unwieldy monster, that can't be


tamed. It has become even more so in the last ten years. If it isn't


tame tamed people will turn their backs on it? There is a lot of


disillusionment about the European Union, particularly in this country.


What they are talking about in Brussels doesn't address the main


question. David Cameron wants to defend the rebate, the French want


to defend agriculture, the Germans want to hold the whole budget down.


I think they have to have a more intelligent discussion about what


the budget is for and what it is spent on. It is not a growth-


promoting budget, they are not spending enough on research and


development. They shouldn't spend as much on ago culture, they need


to look at boosting growth in Europe, which they are not doing,


that would be a much more sensible use of time. Isn't the problem here,


many people are disillusioned with the European Union, in your view,


how damaging would it be to Europe, if Britain decided to call it a


day? It would be big damage. We really need Britain within the your


-- the European Union, we need, as Germans the UK on our side. We have


to organise a compromise. In organising a compromise, it is very


bad to have a red line at the beginning of the negotiations. What


we expect is that we get an open negotiation, and Angela Merkel will


do a lot to build a bridge for Britain, and for France, and for


the other countries, and I guess at the end of the day, unfortunately


not at the end of today, but of some days in the future, we will


have the compromise on the budget. The main question is not the budget,


main question is to reorganise the European Union, and for this


process, it would be a big damage if the UK leaves.


The outsider insider, that is the moniker conferred on the new


Director-General, Tony Hall, the cross-bench peer, credited with


getting the Royal Opera House back in tune. Tony Hall, the only


candidate for the job apparently, began as a news trainee 39 years


ago, did time as a Newsnight producer, and was a senior


executive when he left for cor vant garden. A "difficult few weeks", he


described the organisation's current travails, he said he wanted


to lead a world Class B BC. It's a new act in the drama at the


BBC. With Baron Patten of Barnes, introducing Baron Hall of Covent


Garden, Don Chris and Don Tony. has take an lot to drag me from


Covent Garden. It has been a tough few weeks for this organisation, I


know we can get through it by listening carefully and thinking


carefully about what we do next. I'm absolutely committed to our


news operation as an absolute world-beater. Nobody can do this on


their own. If you are going to run a creative organisation, you need a


team, I know that from my earliest days as a news trainee in this


organisation, through to my latter days running the BBC News, through


to now at the Royal Opera House. Tony Hall is billed as man who


knows his way around a BBC News room, even a brand new one like


this. But who also has experience at another high-profile institution,


the Royal Opera House. His admirers at the BBC say he's an outsider who


used to be an insider. Will Hall be able to stick around long enough


for a glorious swan song? REPORTER: Lord Patten, have you


been able to offer Lord Hall any security of tenure, some feel it is


getting like Chelsea round here? haven't seen myself in Anwar


Abramvich role, because my bank balance and his are very different,


not least. When you say it is getting like Chelsea round here,


how many managers of Chelsea in the Abramavich era, seven, eight, we


have had, unfortunately, two Director-Generals in the last nine


years. So, it is some way behind Chelsea. I hope that this boss will


win a few league titles and European competitions as well.


It is less than a fortnight since the BBC was saying a golden goodbye


to George Entwistle, after just 54 days in the top job.


A new crisis for Newsnight. He was criticised for his handling of a


crisis surrounding coverage of child abuse allegations by


Newsnight. As you might expect, there is no shortage of advice for


the new DG. Obviously he has to set about restoring trust and


confidence in the BBC. That particularly applies to the BBC's


news output and its current affairs. Already some steps have been taken


to more clearly define the responsibilities, and to put in


place the editorial safeguards, that is going to be a long process,


and Tony Hall, having run the news division, does have the experience


perhaps to do that. So what's the score with the new


DG? Born in Birkenhead, Tony Hall joined the BBC as a trainee almost


40 years a he later launched Radio Five Live, the BBC News channel,


and BBC Online. In 199 he applied for the top job but lost out to


Greg Dyke, two years later he became chief executive at the Royal


Opera House, where he's credited with opening up the art form to a


wider audience. When the DG job came up again last year, Hall


reportedly said he was too old, make that "experience", a year now


he's the top man. If you are thinking the Opera House sounds


like a cushy berth, you would be dead wrong, according to our man in


the stalls. It could be far from luvvie duvvey back stage. One saw a


tranquillisation at the Royal Opera House, externally it was less


interesting because internally people were working together. His


great gift is to get people around the table and remind them they are


a team. If they work together they will achieve more. So it's back to


the future for the BBC and the long-serving Hall, in the middle


here. Major challenges await. biggest question marks there will


be over the level at which the license fee will be set. Whether it


is at the current rate, by delivers �3.6 billion a year, and the other


big question will be over the governance of the BBC. Whether you


really do need a Trust and a chairman, on the one hand, who are


apparently the regulator, although it is not utterly clear if they are


also the cheerleader. Whether you also then want an executive board,


with non-executive boards that sits with the Director-General. Are you


staying awake for this, this is positively Baroque this system.


Part of the battle in the performing arts is know your lines


and don't trip over the furniture. It is a useful lesson that Tony


Hall brings from Covent Garden to the upper reaches of the BBC.


Our political editor is here. What's the Tony Hall effect in


Downing Street? Peace has broken out, across Downing Street, but


also the Labour Party. They are quite happy. Some people are


concerned at the alarcity of the appointment, but some are saying,


get a life. That is the media story, but the Government is much less


anxious about what is happening? The story that is racking the best


minds in Britain, is how you respond to what we now know is the


imminent publication of the Levin report, which is Lord Justice


Leveson's inquiry into media standards in this country. David


Cameron has sight of it, he knows what where it will end up. He's


going up and down the land talking to newspaper editors looking at


room for manoeuvre. It is tiny. On the one hand you have the Liberal


Democrats and the victims of phone hacking and the Labour Party. And


MPs who think it is time to underpin the regulation of the


press in law. On the other hand you have incredibly muscular press


barons, you have both the Prime Minister's closest allies, Michael


Gove, and his closest rival, Boris Johnson, who in the last 24 hours


have left David Cameron in no uncertain terms about where they


want him to end up, it is a small amount of room for manoeuvre. A few


things to leave the viewers with. I don't think it is at all-clear cut,


inside Downing Street even over what they will do. The first thing,


if it comes to a vote whether they would necessarily lose if David


Cameron said I can't that far, I can't put any legal status to this.


There will be some Labour people who will fall away from Ed


Miliband's leadership and say I'm uncomfortable with that as well. If


he did lose in the Commons, how would it be reported when you have


many in the press who will say this is massive leadership from David


Cameron, rather than a big defeat from him. The last thing is, Lord


Leveson has always said, Lord Justice Leveson has always said he


doesn't want his report to be another door stop, he doesn't want


it to be another irrelevant inquiry, so it isn't beyond the realms of


possibility that he comes forward with something that David Cameron


can actually implement. The next Archbishop of Canterbury,


Justin Welby, is apparently a skilled conflict negotiator. So,


when he said today he was confident the Church of England will


concecrate a female bishop, was this an opening gambit for fresh


debate within the Church of England, or was he referring to the move by


MPs to force change on the grounds of sex discrimination. He was


speaking on a visit to Nigeria, to promote religious reconciliation,


while at home, parliament was being called to arms.


Lord hear us. Lord graciously hear us. The decision of the Church of


England has become a debate far beyond the church's walls. There is


now the very really prospect of Tuesday's vote souring the


relationship between church and state. The Labour MP, Frank Field,


is determined that the church be striped of its exemption from sex


discrimination laws, an exemption in the Eqality Act designed to stop


causing offence on the grounds of gender or belief. That would


prevent women from becoming bishops. There are signs the Government is


losing patience with the church. I'm making it clear this is not an


issue that can be parked, it is not an issue that the Church of England


can now ignore for the next two or three years, hope it will go away


until after the next General Synod elections, it has to be resolved as


soon as possible. With us from Liverpool is Frank Field who


introduced a bill to end the Church of England's exemption from


equality law, a member of the House of layity, who voted on this week's


-- House of layy, who voted on this week's proposal on women bishops.


Tonight it is the cultural and political terms we are talking


about. Why is this any of your business as an MP? We are talking


about a church that has been created on the side of the state,


and it wants to make sure the church doesn't behave in an absurd


manner. Most people will think its actions over the last few days show


a real lack of politics in the church. Why did the reformers fail.


They have some serious questions to answer here. To satisfy those who


were upset and disquieted by the proposal for reform. Let me put


this to my other guest. An absurd manner, do you think MPs have a


place in this. Afterall the Church of England is the established


church there are bishops who sit and make contributions to laws in


the House of Lords? It is the established church, that is true.


But I think it is really important, isn't it, that the church and the


state, reremember they are two different things. It is the


established church, not a state church. It is important that the


church is able to make its own laws. So, you believe that Frank Field


has absolutely no locus in this debate about women bishops? It is


important we listen to society, but our God is not parliament. Frank


Field. Do you believe this is a special case, as it were, because


the Church of England is established church. Afterall, if


you were going to make exemptions, presumably other religions would be


involved too, once you start to unpick these exemptions, where do


you stop? Well, British politics is never like that, and normally you


just give a push here and pull there. I agree with Lucy's last


comment, that God is not parliament. Nevertheless, the church has


certain public functions to carry out. If we look at the, you build


this with the new Archbishop of Canterbury. At the moment we choose


from half the population in choosing an Archbishop of


Canterbury. They were so stacked with talent this time round, that


one of the bishops, who had hardly got his robes on, as a bishop, was


actually chosen to fulfil that post. So it would suggest, wouldn't it,


that events are trying to teach us a lesson here. That it might well


be well over time before we actually look to the talents of the


other half of the population, when it comes to a leadership role. The


crucial question is not bishops or this that or the other, the crucial


question was decided decades ago, when the church decided there was


no theological objection to concecrating women as priests, that


is the key function in the church. Other people may have other


responsibilities, such as being Archdeacons or being bishops or


Archbishops, the argument that there is something wrong with women


taking these roles was decided by the church a long time ago.


The argument there is something wrong with women taking the roles


of Bishop, puts you out of step with, it seems to me, a lot of


opinion outside the church in this country, that you have set


yourselves apart, and that will give you a fundamental problem,


won't it, in recruiting more women for the church? It is interesting


what we just heard. It is true, that back in 1975, General Synod


did vote. But at that point 40%. it hasn't gone first? 40% House of


Laity voted against that then. We have a similar proportion of the


House of Laity saying the same thing now, it is theological


conviction. This perhaps is not about theological convictions, what


will happen now, if there was a vote, Frank Field brings a bill in,


and there is a vote to remove that exemption from you, and you are


absolutely forced to have women bishops, what would happen to the


church? It would be very, very sad. I think it would be the end of


religious freedom in this country, in that sense. We would be starting


to say that what we protect very, very clearly within the equalities


act, in fact, that religious freedom is very important, we would


be some how overruling that. Frank Field, we don't have long, are we


on the way to disestablishment? at all, the real, I think, the real


issue, Lucy is the reformers were ungracious and ungenerous in


meeting the objections that many in your position actually hold. My


advice to them, which was ignored such as it was, was that the


crucial thing to establish is the principle of women bishops, whether


they are curtailed in certain ways, that doesn't really matter. One


should actually stuff the teeth of the, the mouths of the opposition


with gold, to actually get the major reform through. They failed


to do that. I think now the church must very quickly reconvene on this


issue, listen very carefully to those that it failed to persuade,


and meet them in those objections, and get the general principle


established. I think that could be done very quickly. Do you think it


can be done? I think that is absolutely right. We are in


complete agreement here. Nobody voted against women bishops at the


beginning of this week, everyone voted against a particular measure.


Next March is ten years since the invasion of Iraq. Since then the


country has experienced occupation and years of sectarian violence.


The Prime Minister is now a Shia Muslim, after decades of Saddam


Hussein's ba'athist party rule of minority Sunnis. The tension


between the two groups has not gone away. We have been to Iraq to test


attitudes in both communities, to other Middle East conflicts


characterised by sectarian division, like Syria, and to report on life


itself in Iraq. An unlikely love story, and an


unlikely romantic hero. TRANSLATION: I used to drive a cab,


I saw her, I drive her to work and home. I felt I had to speak to her.


Day after day, I tell her I loved her.


At the height of Iraq's civil war, Hassan and Sara defied the world


around them to be together. TRANSLATION: Shia, Sunni, whatever,


I want this girl, they said she was not my kind, she is Shia. I said,


no, either her or no-one. TRANSLATION: One of my sisters


called me and said if you don't leave him I won't speak to you, and


my husband will leave me, do you accept my children and I will be


thrown out of our home. We stayed in the car just crying.


Harder times lay ahead, after Sara lost her leg in a bombing two years


ago. But still.


Tran # We have a crazy love # We have a crazy love


In a way, the story of Hassan and Sara is snot just a triumph of love


over hate. But of ordinary people against powerful forces around them.


A great sectarian divide is taking root in the region. More than ever


before, it is affecting the behaviour of states, and the way


people think. Most dangerously it looks more and more like a zero sum


game, where one side's gain is the other side's loss.


This is Fallujah. It is saw some of the worst fighting during the war,


and the scars are still visible. It is still unstable, and many here


don't feel part of the new Iraq. Curious to see a TV crew, this man


asks me what we are doing here. Exploring Iraq's sectarian division,


I explain. He assures me it is all gone, no more trouble.


If only it were that simple. A lot of trouble seems to be lurking just


around the corner. Abu Ahmed is in the free Iraqi army,


formed to support the Free Syrian Army.


TRANSLATION: We share the same goal, to Shi'ite expansion in the region,


to promote it, we support our brothers in certain ways, weapons


and fighters. Just like others support the regime.


It is in Iraq that he has got scores to settle.


TRANSLATION: After the fall of Sayyed Sadr al-Din al-Qu, Iraq will


have its turn, today Sadik, tomorrow Nouri al-Maliki, soon God


welling, with with the grace of God, they will fall too.


If his vision is to come true, it is young men like these who might


have to act it out. In history class, these boys learn about


struggles to control Iraq, four centuries ago.


But in the playground, they just want to have some fun. They were


happy to welcome an outsider. To them, there are more important


divisions than Sunni and Shia. Barcelona. Barca. Hello, Barca? But


they do feel stuck. They only play here in school, and because of the


security situation don't often meet kids from other parts of the


country. They are not the only ones who feel trapped. Time has taken


its told toll on Abu, since the days he was an officer in the


former Iraqi army. He has been kept out of work, as the Government


sought a clean break with the former regime.


TRANSLATION: When you throw me away with all my service to Iraq, and


never ask me to come back, or give me my rights, what do you expect?


That I will accept? The people who built Iraq, overnight, just gone


with the wind, left to beg, we do not beg we are Iraqis with our


heads held high. So many like him were shut out as the new Iraq


emerge the. But others, long oppressed -- emerged. But others,


long oppressed under ba'athist rule, finally found their place. Across


Iraq there is a sense of resurgence in Shia pride. Nowhere more so than


here in Najaf. Shia clerics look down on you from everywhere, the


colours on full display. Suppressed under Saddam, this place brims with


new-found confidence. The whole city centres around this, the Imam


Ali Shrine, one of the holyist places for Shia Muslims, drawing


millions of visitors every year. TRANSLATION: It gave me gooz bumps,


a rush of faith and had you mality, like entering one of the gates of


heaven. Here Shia show their devotion to


Iman Ali, they believe he should have succeeded the prophet. The


battle was at the heart of the Sunni Shia divide. Today the


fateful look to the clerics for guidance about everything, that


gives them a lot of influence. Saddam Hussein feared their power


so much that he killed many of them. Now they are on the rise again. And


they say it is not a problem. TRANSLATION: Everyone, Christians,


Sunni, Shia, won't turn away the cleric leadership because it is


above sectarian, the fears are from other practices that could be


called sectarian. The clerics in Iran practice leadership in one way,


here in Iraq it cannot be the same. Whether or not that calms Sunni


fears, out on the streets, Shia fears are simmering too. People


hesitate to talk about Iraq's sectarian divide. But they are all


fired up about Syria. TRANSLATION: It is a Wahaby war against Shia


holy places, this mantles me. TRANSLATION: I will go fight in


Syria, this man says, because it is the Shia who are the targets.


This isn't just the magnet for the living, but also for the dead. This


is the world's largest cemetery. Everyone wants to be buried here in


holy soil. For a place of death, it strikes me


how full of life it is. This doesn't stop, night and day, every


day. The visitors keep coming to bury their dead, and to visit the


family dead, from all over the Islamic world, and sometimes beyond,


and this huge cemetery keeps on expanding, in all directions.


Business is booming for the flower sellers, the motorcycle taxies, and,


of course, the undertakers. Abu Saif has been burying people here


most of his life. At the height of Iraq's civil war, he would bury


hundreds a day. That's over in Iraq, he said, but a


nasty wind is blowing from Syria. Lately, he's received bodies from


across the border. TRANSLATION: It is my hope this


phenomenon will disappear, it divides people T has nothing to do


with Islam. I can only recite the word of Iman Ali, "people are


either your brothers in religion or your equal in creation".


First Iraq, now Syria. Who you are can still get you killed. The grief,


too often, only gives way to scavengence.


-- scavengence. Vengence. There are places where


none of this matters. Here you can't tell who is Sunni or Shia, it


is just Iraqis out for some fun. It may be a bit crowded for Sara and


Hassan, they prefer their own little spot bit river.


-- by the river. TRANSLATION: Iraqis, when we love, if the other


person is sincere, we sacrifice for them. Hassan sacrificed, Sara


sacrificed, thank God we are unshakeable, nothing can drive us


apart. Sectarian war is looming again. It


feeds on hatred and division. It tears people apart. Hope comes in


the bonds that hold together, and in those who choose a different


path. Tomorrow morning's front pages, we


That's just about all we have time for tonight. Tonight is


thanksgiving in America, which appropriately enough was started by


early settlers, who were unhappy with the decisions of the Church of


With that, I think we are going to There is still some atrocious


weather out and about across England and Wales, heavy showers


following behind the flood line number.


Even after the rain ease, the rain will filter into the river systems.


Some very nasty weather to come. Soggy across the south-east first


thing in the morning as well. But, for many much dryer, the winds will


have eased significant loo, after pretty wet and windy nights across


the south-east. It will take a while for that rain to drag its


heels, behind it there are showers around, it is not all together dry.


But it will be a lot dryer than it has been today across the south


west of England, across the Midland, Wales and northern England. It will


be a pestering of showers, particularly across the likes of


Northern Ireland, there could be some hail, thunder there, across


the Scottish Highlands some snow as well. A keen breeze, again dryer,


than it has been through the day today. Especially where those areas


are flooded. Do keep tuned to the forecast if you are at all


concerned. Still some atro sure weather out. It is only a brief --


atrocious weather around. It is only a brief dry spell, it is more


again on the weekend. Raint on Sunday, or Saturday night, more


very wet and windy weather is due across the southern half of the


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