18/12/2012 Newsnight


18/12/2012

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Emily Maitlis.


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Has the euro crisis pushed fart right to prominence across the

:00:12.:00:20.

continent. High unemployment, low self-esteem, and purist boundaries,

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has put revolution back on the doorstep. TRANSLATION:

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revolution comes when there is no bread left, then we will see shoot

:00:27.:00:33.

gts and efrgs. New CCTV of plebgate, which shows a serving police

:00:33.:00:37.

officer posing as a member of the public, and fabricated evidence

:00:37.:00:43.

against Andrew Mitchell. The winners and losers of the next

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round of Olympic funding, money for all the stuff we are really good at,

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none for the sports we need to improve. Can that be right? We will

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Why your photos could be worth millions to the site they are

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posted on. Facebook wants to change the user terms of Instagram, could

:01:02.:01:12.
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every snap you share be used to make them money. Good evening. In

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Greece, it is The Golden Calf, in Finland it is the True Finns, in

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Hungary it is Jobbik. European parties of the far right, thriving

:01:28.:01:35.

on the conflict. Spain has its answer to the

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National Front. Growing every week. The eurocrisis has created

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something of a nationalist revolt, that much, perhaps, was to be

:01:42.:01:45.

anticipated. How much power do these parties really v and what do

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they want to achieve. Paul Mason, do you believe there is

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a pan-European trend at work here? In a word, no. Because we tend to

:01:58.:02:03.

talk beginerically about far right parties -- genericly about far

:02:03.:02:06.

right parties. The breakthrough at the moment was for Golde Dawn,

:02:06.:02:12.

which was different to most of them in Greece. It was violent party t

:02:12.:02:16.

had not renounced violence, it was able to score 9% in the election,

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and is now on 14%. We are seeing the impact to resonate across

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Europe, and affect the strategy of parties that have been up until now

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totally marginal, and the Spanish far right, marginal and split into

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several groups. I went to Valencia to try to catch one this group,

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Espana 200 as it tries to adopt the gold -- Golden Dawn strategy, in a

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different country which has different ways of confronting far

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rightism. If there is one place that thrives

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in a depression. It is the boxing ring.

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With youth unemployment at 50%, many of these young men, from the

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dock side area of Valencia, have no job and no chance of one. The owner

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of the gym, a professional boxer, trains many of them for free.

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TRANSLATION: I try to keep them from the streets, I would rather

:03:25.:03:28.

them here rather than mugging people or taking drugs. Here they

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have a sporting and healthy atmosphere, discipline and routine.

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But this is no ordinary boxer, he's also a member of a far right party,

:03:41.:03:46.

that aims, as Golden Dawn has done in Greece to make a political

:03:46.:03:50.

breakthrough. The party is called Espana 2000, it is recruiting 30,

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or 40 new members a week. Like many far right groups, it is growing

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because people have lost hope in mainstream politics.

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TRANSLATION: We have to serve the people, those who suffer hunger,

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those that need help. You would like a revolution? But not from the

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left? TRANSLATION: I want a revolution from the right, my hero

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is the Nazi leader Rudolf Hess. I'm a nationalist socialist. For him,

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the word revolution means just that. TRANSLATION: The revolution will

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come when there is no bread yet, then we will see shootings and

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everything. Of all the countries facing

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economic crisis, Spain is facing the worst and probably the longest.

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There will be mass unemployment here for a decade. But this is the

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one country that has never really addressed what happened in the past.

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In the 30s, in the 50s, under Franco's dictatorship. The problem

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s if you are going to try to relief the 30s, with mass unemployment,

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mass radicalisation, rubber bullets on the streets, you are going to

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want to know what actually happened. The problem for many Spanish people

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is they have no idea, there is no official memorial, there is no

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official account, there is certainly no official reckoning,

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with what happened. There is no memorial? No, there is hidden.

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shrubland on the outskirts of Valencia, I'm taken to a place

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where 3,200 people were shot in mass killings, by the dictatorship,

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after the civil war had ended. in the middle of nowhere. There is

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:05:54.:05:57.

no memorial? In 1977, after the death of General Franco, Spain

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passed an amnesty law, preventing the investigation of crimes

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committed under the dictatorship. In Spain there was no

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deNaziification, now this big act of forgetting, some say, could have

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big consequences in these times. TRANSLATION: There is a big danger,

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when there are people in the Government who have not distanced

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themselves from Franco, how do you know when the crisis hits, that

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they won't take off their suits, and reveal fascist ununiforms

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underneath. -- Fascist uniforms underneath.

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For now, the far right remains at the edges of mainstream politics,

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but the edges are getting sharp. Last year, in the industrial town

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of Onda, near Valencia, Espana 2000, held a torch-lit march, demanding

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the closure of a local mosque. Their banners say "more jobs, less

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immigrants", another message is clear. The police had to blockade

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the street to prevent demonstrators from reaching the mosque.

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In September 2012, the same mosque was firebombed. Somebody poured

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lighter fuel under the front door and set it alight. We found here

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the gasoline, right here. There was a fire. The front was badly damaged

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and needed extensive repair work. This man teaches children here, he

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says it was only the absence of carpet that prevented the fire from

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spreading. The children you teach, how did they respond to the event?

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They didn't like it T they can't accept this one. This is the job of

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crazy people. Does that make people here frightened? Are you scared of

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that? Yes. Espana 200 denies any involvement in the attack, the

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police are investigating, but have not, so far, made Anne rest.

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-- an arrest. Spain's economy has shrunk by 1.4% in 2012 it will do

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the same again in 2013. But, as one year of recession spills into the

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next, it is still surprising to find, openly, on the corner of an

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:08:32.:08:37.

ordinary street, an organisation that is preparing for civil war.

:08:37.:08:47.
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This is the leader of Espana 2000, Hugh Robertson. -- Jose Roberte.

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He's a lawyer, he also own as network of boxing gym, and he's the

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main man in the city's private security industry. That's Franco?

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His involvement with the far right goes back to the Franco years. It

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is card with Franco on the horse. "the leader"? Si. The whole set up

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is very similar to Golden Dawn in Greece, while attacking immigration,

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Europe and liberal social policies, they distribute food, advice and

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shelter to the victims of the slump. This man says he came here because

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he was made homeless by the crisis but now he shares the party's views.

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It's a case of politics plus paella, the party wants to slim down

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regional Governments, it wants import control, and Spanish-born

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people to have priority in social services over migrants.

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It is building a small base in local councils, in areas where

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immigration is a key issue. After your march against the mosque,

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the bossk was bombed, do you regret that happened? TRANSLATION: We are,

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of course, against the burning of the mosque. But if someone, whether

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they are party member, or someone from the neighbourhood, privately

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does that, we are not responsible. I didn't say you were responsible,

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I ask you do you regret that somebody firebombed the mosque?

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TRANSLATION: We don't speak for others, it is not our business. The

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person who did it must regret T it would be absurd for someone who

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didn't do it to regret it. I skds him, with Spain's history -- I

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asked him, with Spain's history with facisim, wasn't the party

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playing with fire? TRANSLATION: Playing with fire? Look around you,

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people are leaping from their balance niece. They can't feed

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:11:16.:11:19.

their children -- Balconies, they can't feed their children. We could

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easily end up with social revolt. How far away do you think you are

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from that moment? TRANSLATION: will use all democratic ways, if

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the situation becomes extreme, it will be necessary to take to the

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streets and use force. When people are leaping from their balconies,

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you can't ask them to wait for elections. It is a clear statement

:11:43.:11:50.

of intent. This is a party which, in the classic far right mould,

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intends to deploy folks on the streets. But for now, it brings

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activists, like the boxer, and those who have just come for the

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paella. So far, even despite a year and a

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bit of massive protests, the institutions in Spain have held

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together. If they don't hold together, it is very clear there

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are people ready to step in and do what the right in Spain has done

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before. At a cemetery in Valencia, are the

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mass graves of the victims of the fascist years. 53 bodies lie

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beneath just this gravestone. Their faces and how they died added only

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after Franco had gone. As the economic crisis deepens, old wounds

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are reopening. Spain, for all its determination to forget, is no

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different. I'm joined by Matthew Goodwin,

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associate Professor at Nottingham University, an expert on the far

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right. And the head of the Spanish socialist delegation at the

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European Parliament, and from Madrid by the political analyst,

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Miguel-Anxo Murado. Thanks to you all.

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Let's pick up with Spain. The fascist past is very, very recent

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there, when you look at a group like Espana 2000, though worried

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are you? I'm worried about a crisis, this is a side effect of the crisis

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s the crisis that brought about not only jingoism, a nationalism

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feeling, but an impoverish ment of the working-class. That is the

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ground where the fascist movement tried to take advantage, and the

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window of opportunity to show bigger than they actually are. That

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is not my major concern. My major concern is that, overall, the

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discrediting of politics is demoralising so many. That these

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fascist movements have a real chance to show up in parliament and

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elected representative houses all across Europe. It has happened to

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be the case of the European Parliament, it is also the case of

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a number of parliament houses all across Europe. When times are tough,

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when the economics are tough, why aren't they turning to your party,

:14:25.:14:29.

why aren't they looking for socialists to pull them out of this,

:14:29.:14:34.

why would they turn to the far right, then? They turn to the far

:14:34.:14:38.

right because they are taking the pain. They are in despair. They

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have been made hopeless. So many have been made angry, they are

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trying to scapegoat all around the place. Let's scapegoat Muslims,

:14:52.:14:57.

let's scapegoat Roma people and their communities. Let's scapegoat

:14:57.:15:03.

southern European, Portuguese, Italian, Spaniards, which are

:15:03.:15:07.

depicted as lazy, or non- competitive or non-productive

:15:07.:15:10.

enough. Scapegoating all around the place. It is the ground where all

:15:10.:15:13.

these extreme far right movements are taking advantage. The major

:15:13.:15:17.

concern is that we are not going to defeat it by taking the banners,

:15:18.:15:23.

which is the temptation of a number of conventional, conservative

:15:23.:15:25.

parties, taking the banners of far right movements.

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I think I understand that. When you hear that, "taking the

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banners", in other words not trying to move towards their ground S that

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the right way of reading this situation --. Is that the right way

:15:40.:15:46.

of reading this situation? I'm not sure, I share the concern but not

:15:46.:15:49.

the alarm. In the case of Spain, these are really fringe groups. We

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are talking about groups that gather say 2,000 votes, 3,000 voit.

:15:54.:15:59.

The most successful party -- votes. The most successful party of this

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type, a Catlonian party, it was down by previous results. It is not

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an imminent threat. What is more interesting is they are not really

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benefiting from the crisis. They are not having their best results

:16:13.:16:21.

now. In the same vain, a driving force behind these parties is going

:16:21.:16:26.

down in Spain. Since the crisis has started. It was much bigger prior

:16:26.:16:30.

to the crisis. I guess this is a new group, as Paul says, it is one

:16:30.:16:35.

that has just started to emerge now, Matthew Goodwin, when you look at

:16:35.:16:39.

the situation across Europe, and as Paul made clear, they are very

:16:39.:16:44.

different groups, but we do see the far right emerge anything Hungary,

:16:44.:16:48.

and Greece now, where it has parliamentary presence as well. In

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Finland, is this just a blip caused by the economics or is it something

:16:53.:16:59.

more? I think it is more complex. Firstly, we need to get the picture

:16:59.:17:02.

in context, the movement in the piece there, actually, to my

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knowledge, has only one or two local councillors from over 9,000

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in Spain. The far right is not jeornly on the march and about to

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take -- generally on the march and about to take power in Europe. We

:17:14.:17:18.

have fallen into this narrative that has said economic crisis and

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scarcity equals extremism. If that is the case, let's look at Austria,

:17:22.:17:26.

the least unemployment rate in the eurozone, the far right is

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currently polling between 21-25%, and will probably join Government

:17:30.:17:34.

next year. Let's take account into the fact that the parties have been

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on the rise since the early 1980s. Look at Golden Dawn, a concrete

:17:39.:17:42.

example of a far right party that has taken the place of the party on

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the right that went before it, and has got 9% and parliamentary

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presence? If we read the newspapers Golden Dawn is running the country.

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It is still a marginal player in the Greek system, however alarming

:17:58.:18:02.

it is. If these parties are looking at Golden Dawn and saying we can

:18:02.:18:12.
:18:12.:18:13.

emulate that, if you look at the Front National, which is what Marie

:18:13.:18:18.

Le Pen got, it is not exceptional, but it is an improvement? The far

:18:18.:18:22.

right, as a collective family of parties in Europe, has been on the

:18:23.:18:28.

go, during periods of economic stability, and growth, as well as

:18:28.:18:31.

stagnation and austerity. What is important is to ask people why they

:18:31.:18:34.

are supporting the far right. Its not because of economic threat, it

:18:34.:18:37.

is a feeling that values, national identity, and the broader national

:18:38.:18:46.

culture are threatened by diversity. If the move towards more fiscal

:18:46.:18:49.

union, more integration, this is going to be something that people

:18:49.:18:57.

feel even more intensely, that they don't control their own countries?

:18:57.:19:01.

That is one of the grounds for nationalism on the right, not the

:19:01.:19:11.
:19:11.:19:11.

only one. Of course it is different feelings about diversity theself.

:19:11.:19:15.

That is the nature of extreme right movements in Spain. They have

:19:15.:19:22.

always hated Spanish national idea tee, Spanish linguistic identity.

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They have always fought against regional nationalism, now they

:19:25.:19:32.

fight against the did I picketed external enemies of the national

:19:32.:19:36.

ining at the a unity of Spain, as is the case of the called Muslim

:19:37.:19:40.

invasion and migration. Migration is not on the rise any more. It is

:19:40.:19:45.

not a problem. No press, no comments are now made about the

:19:45.:19:51.

threat of migration. But, yet, the extreme right movements are trying

:19:51.:19:59.

to depict the devil in every sign of peculiar pluralism within the

:19:59.:20:02.

Spanish social fabric. Do you buy the argument that because of

:20:02.:20:08.

Spain's failure to deal with the Franco years properly is the cause?

:20:08.:20:12.

I'm not sure. There is a misunderstanding usually with Spain

:20:12.:20:17.

with regards to these. We tend to think of Spain as a country prone

:20:17.:20:22.

to facisim, because it did have a dictatorship for such a long time.

:20:22.:20:27.

The main bit here, which is that dictatorship needed a war to impose

:20:27.:20:31.

itself, nothing to do with Germany voting in the Nazi, or Italy, not

:20:31.:20:39.

even needing to vote them. Because they were so popular. Spain did not

:20:39.:20:44.

have Just one single seat, the fascist party before the war. And

:20:44.:20:47.

one seat after Franco's dictatorship, they lost that one

:20:48.:20:52.

now and they have none now. I wouldn't make a connection between

:20:52.:20:59.

the fringe movements and far right know.S and Franco's -- Franco

:20:59.:21:04.

movements, and the far right movements. It is true that within

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the Conservative Party in Spain, the People's Party, there is a

:21:08.:21:13.

sector, which is nostalgic of Franco, or of the narrative of

:21:13.:21:17.

history of the Franco period. I wouldn't say they are Francoists,

:21:17.:21:21.

it is not exactly that. It is true they have difficulty in dealing

:21:21.:21:25.

with the past in Spain. And your reporter was talking about this

:21:25.:21:31.

issue. It is a serious problem. I don't think we can call it a

:21:31.:21:37.

Francoist party. Do you think we are immune to this

:21:37.:21:46.

here? Would r we haven't seen a rise of the right? We have seen a

:21:46.:21:49.

resurgence of the British National Party and the English Defence

:21:49.:21:54.

League. But the common theme across Europe is we have demand across the

:21:54.:21:59.

countries. Worries about immigration and Islam, and

:21:59.:22:01.

dissatisfaction about the way mainstream parties are performing

:22:01.:22:05.

on those issues. Do you think the parties have met that concern?

:22:05.:22:09.

was my point. The key word here is "supply". What we see in Spain is a

:22:09.:22:13.

poor supply. Parties that are not organised, not adept at mobilising

:22:13.:22:21.

that demand at elections. Thank you very much. Number Ten has said the

:22:21.:22:27.

claims that a serving police officer posed as a member of the

:22:27.:22:30.

public to fabricate an account of the Andrew Mitchell row in Downing

:22:30.:22:32.

Street are exceptionally serious. They have called for the police to

:22:32.:22:39.

get to the bottom of this as a matter of urgency. The allegations

:22:39.:22:43.

rose after Channel 4 News showed unreleased footage of Mr Mitchell

:22:43.:22:47.

from that infamous night in September. You are here to take us

:22:47.:22:51.

through a new set of regulations, that are complicated? Andrew

:22:51.:22:56.

Mitchell always denied using those very toxic words as described to

:22:56.:23:05.

him, the word "pleb", and the use of "moran" and an angry tirade

:23:06.:23:09.

against police officers, stopping him cycling through Downing Street,

:23:09.:23:12.

and forcing him through a side entrance. Two pieces of evidence

:23:12.:23:16.

that did for Andrew Mitchell, the official police log from on-duty

:23:16.:23:19.

officers at Downing Street at the time, it was clear, precise and

:23:19.:23:24.

detailed, it used the word "pleb" and a lot more. Mr Mitchell

:23:24.:23:28.

disputed this. He said had he had sworn, but only under his breath in

:23:28.:23:34.

frustration, saying "I thought you people were supposed to f-ing help

:23:34.:23:39.

us". Another piece of evidence came that did for him. It is a

:23:39.:23:41.

corroberative e-mail from maybe of the public, who had been on the

:23:41.:23:44.

other side of the gate at Downing Street, and witnessed it through

:23:44.:23:48.

the gates. This was written to a colleague of Mr Mitchell's in the

:23:48.:23:51.

whip's office. It found its way to the heart of Government. This e-

:23:51.:23:55.

mail, supposedly from a member of the public had said that the police

:23:55.:23:59.

account, or coroborated the police account, almost word for word, and

:23:59.:24:02.

also said other members of the public had seen the incident and

:24:02.:24:07.

some maybe had filmed it. Tonight there are allegations that e-mail

:24:07.:24:11.

of not from a member of the public, but a serving police officer. If

:24:11.:24:15.

true, that is explosive. Tonight, Downing Street have issued the

:24:15.:24:22.

following statement. "Any allegation that is a serving police

:24:22.:24:26.

officer posed as a member of the public and fabricated evidence

:24:26.:24:29.

against a cabinet minister are exceptionally serious. It is

:24:29.:24:34.

therefore essential that the police get to the bottom of this as a

:24:34.:24:38.

matter of urgency". This witness doesn't seem to have been there,

:24:38.:24:41.

what about the witnesses that were there? It is interesting, as you

:24:41.:24:46.

said in the introduction, Channel 4 News have got hold of the CCTV

:24:46.:24:49.

footage. This is one of the angles from inside Downing Street. There

:24:49.:24:54.

you see Mr Mitchell wheeling his bike to the side gate. Now,

:24:54.:24:58.

maddeningly and frustratingly there is no audio, we can't lip read, it

:24:58.:25:02.

is too fuzzy for that. Let's look at another angle. This time from

:25:02.:25:06.

outside the gates of Downing Street. There we are, there is the street,

:25:06.:25:10.

with a bus going past. This is what was happening at the same time

:25:10.:25:14.

outside the gates of Downing Street. As you are looking at that, let me

:25:14.:25:19.

read you the official log of what happened at the time. "There were

:25:19.:25:23.

several members of the public present, as is the norm, opposite

:25:23.:25:28.

the pedestrain gates. As we neared it, Mr Mitchell said "best you

:25:28.:25:34.

learn your F-ing place, you don't run this f-ing Government, you are

:25:34.:25:40.

just plebs, the members of the public looked shocked". Plenty of

:25:40.:25:43.

those around Westminster say that version of events doesn't

:25:43.:25:47.

correspond with the CCTV pictures we saw there.

:25:47.:25:53.

Very interesting, what happens now? We do know that one police

:25:53.:25:56.

constable in the Diplomatic Protection Group, has been arrested

:25:56.:25:59.

on suspicion of misconduct in a public office. He has been bailed

:25:59.:26:01.

to a date in January. The Metropolitan Police say their

:26:01.:26:11.

investigations continue. UK sport has been accused of

:26:11.:26:18.

reneging on a promise to rebuild sport. The national sport agencies

:26:18.:26:24.

announced that �347 million will be distributed, with the biggest

:26:24.:26:30.

medal-winning sports taking the largest slice of the pie.

:26:30.:26:34.

Olympic table tennis player, now sports writer for the times has our

:26:34.:26:44.
:26:44.:26:46.

report on this tonight. You may be aware that Great Britain

:26:46.:26:51.

did rather well at the Olympic and Paralympic Games this summer. Team

:26:51.:26:55.

GB and Paralympics GB, each came third in the medal table,

:26:55.:27:01.

destroying traditional rivals, like Germany and Australia.

:27:01.:27:07.

But there was another, more covert battle going on at London 2012. The

:27:07.:27:12.

fight between British sports for crucial Government funding. And in

:27:12.:27:15.

that battle, there are clear winners and some huge losers.

:27:15.:27:19.

Boxing, which punched above its weight at the London games, is one

:27:19.:27:23.

of the winners. The sport was rewarded for its five

:27:24.:27:28.

medals with a 44% increase in funding. Other sports which proved

:27:28.:27:33.

their worth at 2012, also received big increase. Including rowing, top

:27:33.:27:43.
:27:43.:27:43.

of the funding pile, with �32 million, equestrian with �18.9 bill

:27:43.:27:48.

-- �17.9 million. And track cycling with �30 million. But basketball,

:27:48.:27:53.

that didn't win any medals nothing aurblgts table tennis, nothing,

:27:53.:27:56.

handball, nothing. The sheer ruthlessness has left many reeling.

:27:56.:28:05.

But does the policy make sense. The entire logic of using public

:28:05.:28:10.

money to fund elite success, is to encourage youngsters to take up

:28:10.:28:14.

sport. How many youngsters could realistically take up rowing or

:28:14.:28:18.

sailing, even if they wanted to. What message does it send to the

:28:18.:28:23.

tens of thousands of young people involved in basketball, an

:28:23.:28:26.

accessible sport, when the national team, to which they aspire, gets

:28:26.:28:32.

nothing. What you can say for the policy, is in terms it of the

:28:32.:28:37.

specific objective of winning Olympic medals, has been a triumph.

:28:37.:28:43.

Rock bottom was 196 in Atlanta, we only won one gold medal and 36th in

:28:43.:28:48.

the medals table. We have always come 13th,th in previous Olympics.

:28:48.:28:51.

The first change was the introduction of the National

:28:51.:28:54.

Lottery which gave Government resources to sport elite sport

:28:54.:28:57.

development. The other change was an organisational one, the

:28:57.:29:02.

establishment of US Sport, with a specific brief to deliver medals

:29:02.:29:06.

for the Olympic Games. But they have not just spent money

:29:06.:29:11.

for the sake of it, they have been rather more cunning than that?

:29:11.:29:14.

competitiveness of the 100ms is intense by comparison to other

:29:14.:29:19.

sports, some events in sailing, some in cycling, the number of

:29:19.:29:22.

competitor, and you could organise the quality of the competitors is

:29:22.:29:26.

dramatically different. If you are trying to maximise your medals, you

:29:26.:29:34.

look for the easier targets. You look for the sports where the

:29:34.:29:38.

quality and quantity of competition is lower.

:29:39.:29:42.

The genius of Britain's elite sports policy is also its greatest

:29:42.:29:47.

weakness. We could spend half our GDP on football, without

:29:47.:29:51.

guarnteeing success, but with sports like sailing w few global

:29:51.:29:56.

participants and loads of medals up for grabs, the funding is potent.

:29:56.:30:01.

The problem is simple, in the cleverly-funded sports, mass

:30:01.:30:04.

participation is virtually impossible.

:30:04.:30:08.

With funding secure until 2016, Team GB has a fighting chance of

:30:08.:30:15.

winning even more medals at the Olympics in -- and Paralympics next

:30:15.:30:18.

time than at home in London. It would be the first team to achieve

:30:19.:30:24.

that feat in recent history. For kids hoping to make the stop in

:30:24.:30:27.

socially inclusive sports, like basketball and table tennis. They

:30:27.:30:30.

better think again. Grassroots money may be in place, that is not

:30:30.:30:34.

really the point. Elite funding for world class coaching and sports

:30:34.:30:40.

science, crucial for the most able youngsters to fulfil their

:30:40.:30:45.

potential, has just been obliterated.

:30:45.:30:48.

Joining me in the studio is Liz Nicholl, chief executive of UK

:30:48.:30:55.

sport, and Paul Goodman, chief executive of the UK Handball

:30:56.:31:01.

Association. One of the sports that lost out today. This is tacit

:31:01.:31:04.

indication this is about winning and medal haul, that is cold and

:31:04.:31:07.

calculated? It is all about investing in success and building

:31:07.:31:11.

on the legacy of the success in London, to ensure, in fact, as we

:31:11.:31:16.

move through London to Rio, we can aspire to do better. People thought

:31:16.:31:19.

legacy was not just about medals. They thought it was about

:31:19.:31:23.

investment in youth, socially inclusive sports. Giving people the

:31:23.:31:28.

sense they could achieve. That doesn't come into your equation at

:31:28.:31:32.

all. It is both of those things, but US sport's unique

:31:32.:31:36.

responsibility is success. We have to build a performance system

:31:36.:31:40.

sustainable that creates success after success in successive games.

:31:40.:31:44.

You write off sports like handball, volley ball, table tennis,

:31:44.:31:48.

financially they are written off? There is parallel investment going

:31:48.:31:51.

in to increase it from sport England and other Sports Council

:31:52.:31:56.

that have the remilt of developing talent. We are focusing

:31:56.:32:00.

unapologetically on delivering medals. It is absolutely

:32:00.:32:05.

unapologetic, and hard-nosed, that is what it is about? We have known

:32:05.:32:11.

for a long time, the principles of UK sports funding. But we did

:32:11.:32:15.

expect, as most members of the public did, that there would be a

:32:15.:32:21.

model in the place to build upon the good work that has been done

:32:21.:32:25.

since the London Olympics, such as sports like handball. What will

:32:25.:32:29.

happen to handball now? We will have to take stock over the next

:32:29.:32:34.

few days, and talk to those who have done a great job at the

:32:34.:32:41.

grassroots level, but I take issue on the amount of money going into

:32:41.:32:45.

handball at groos roots level, is fraction of what we have lost.

:32:45.:32:50.

is about winning medals and getting goals for Britain? We totally

:32:50.:32:55.

understand that, there is no solution in place at present to

:32:55.:33:00.

bridge the gap from talented young athletes, to become senior athletes

:33:00.:33:04.

that represent GB. What happens, what would you advise them now,

:33:04.:33:08.

would you say, get all those kids playing handball to do something

:33:08.:33:13.

more lucrative? Wient say that, I would say, sports like handball, I

:33:13.:33:17.

would say that, sports like handball, qualified because there

:33:17.:33:21.

was a host nation place. They had a fantastic opportunity to showcase

:33:21.:33:25.

their sport and drive further interest in their sport, to

:33:25.:33:31.

encourage people to participate in it. There is a fantastic

:33:31.:33:36.

opportunity. They are rubbish is that it? If we had not had the

:33:36.:33:40.

games in London in 2012 we wouldn't have funded handball, volley ball

:33:40.:33:44.

and basketball. Wuent like to see them qualify on their own --

:33:44.:33:49.

wouldn't you like to see them qualify on their own merits?

:33:49.:33:53.

want to see it through increasing participation, developing the club

:33:53.:33:56.

structure, and the talent, looking for performance I will improvement.

:33:56.:34:02.

If they come back in a few years time, have a look at us, we can do

:34:02.:34:05.

it. They are too grown up for you right now, you are the little kids

:34:05.:34:09.

that need to work harder? That is how it feels, actually,

:34:09.:34:12.

realistically, our sport is absolutely huge in the rest of

:34:12.:34:18.

Europe. Yet, for some reason, in this nation, we tend to just keep

:34:18.:34:22.

being fed a staple diet of the same sports. 400,000 people, I know they

:34:22.:34:26.

are not British, but they came and watched handball at the Olympic

:34:26.:34:31.

Games, so many people have taken up the sport since. If you are looking

:34:31.:34:37.

at it from a completely money perspective, can't you say, cycling,

:34:37.:34:43.

sailing, they will get funding from massive sponsors now, from

:34:43.:34:47.

corporate level. These are the guys that could be sharing the medal

:34:47.:34:51.

haul in eight years time? You saw the opening pictures, elite success

:34:51.:35:01.

costs a lot of money. We are happy with just elite success, it sounds

:35:01.:35:04.

like elite sport success? We are responsible for that, but

:35:04.:35:08.

underpinning that is a significant investment, about another half a

:35:09.:35:15.

billion pound investment, in developing talent by sports England

:35:15.:35:21.

only announced yesterday. Handball is in that. A lot of the sports

:35:21.:35:26.

getting the major funding are elitist, handball, basketball,

:35:26.:35:31.

these are sports for the majority of the population. The nation

:35:31.:35:35.

enjoyed fantastic success in 2012 we celebrated every medal, whatever

:35:35.:35:39.

the sport. Give up handball and do more athletics, is that the way you

:35:39.:35:42.

are going here? I don't think it will wash. We need to keep on at UK

:35:42.:35:49.

sports and others to find a solution to this, because we are

:35:49.:35:53.

second-rate nations where those team sports are concerned.

:35:53.:35:57.

Facebook is in the eye of the storm tonight, after announcing it will

:35:57.:36:05.

change users' term force the photo- sharing site Instagram. There was

:36:05.:36:10.

fury to think that pictures could be used as paid content. Instagram

:36:10.:36:16.

said it will revise the language in the terms, and photos will not

:36:16.:36:20.

accompany adverts, they will still seek ways of raising money.

:36:20.:36:24.

Subjecting the company is desperately trying to support the

:36:24.:36:29.

service it paid a billion dollars for a year ago.

:36:29.:36:34.

There was a time, EONs ago, when we used to print out photographs and

:36:34.:36:41.

store them in large binder, called albums. Nowadays photo albums are

:36:41.:36:49.

stored in outer space for all to say see. One of those free sites is

:36:49.:36:53.

Instagram, free comes at a rights. Facebook wants to get some of the

:36:53.:37:00.

money back it had when it bought it, by selling your pictures to other

:37:00.:37:03.

companies. Overnight they changed terms and conditions to allow

:37:03.:37:08.

another group or identity to display your photographs without

:37:08.:37:12.

any compensation to you. Although highly unlikely, that

:37:12.:37:17.

could have meant photos of your children appearing alongside advert

:37:17.:37:22.

force babey products. And you would get no money for it. This isn't the

:37:22.:37:31.

first time that face Boca has been taken to task over this. When you

:37:31.:37:36.

press a "like" put on for an ad on the page, you are saying you like

:37:36.:37:40.

it. I'm not saying I advertise this? I suppose when you, let's

:37:40.:37:50.
:37:50.:37:58.

pause, that is an interesting... You're asking a profound question,

:37:58.:38:03.

what's advertising? How has the tech community reacted to the

:38:03.:38:07.

change in how photographs can be treated? It is unexpected, that's

:38:07.:38:11.

for sure, for any of these services, these cloud services that we are

:38:11.:38:18.

entrusting our personal data to. We simply don't expect that to happen.

:38:18.:38:22.

I think the fact that Instagram have made this move as quickly as

:38:22.:38:30.

they have, with such far-reaching personal consequences, is

:38:30.:38:35.

definitely ering on the side of ill-advised. Instagram users have

:38:35.:38:40.

until January 15th to delete their account in full f they no longer

:38:40.:38:44.

want their photographs sold on to advertisers, if they don't, where

:38:44.:38:48.

do they stand illegally? If the image was used without your consent,

:38:48.:38:52.

in some cases you would have rights to object. If you owned the

:38:52.:38:56.

copyright of the photograph you could stop that, or it give a

:38:56.:39:00.

misleading impression of you, some how negative. You are consenting

:39:00.:39:04.

now if you are a user to your image being used in that way. You are

:39:04.:39:06.

getting rid of that control, you are sacrificing the control you

:39:06.:39:12.

previously had. Just as free banking is not

:39:12.:39:17.

necessarily free, someone has to pay for free photo-sharing.

:39:17.:39:23.

Facebook had long since postponed monetising its one billion users

:39:23.:39:27.

worldwide, for fear it would make them uncool. Now it is a publicly

:39:27.:39:31.

listed company, the shareholders want a return on their hitherto

:39:31.:39:39.

lost-making investment. -- Lost-making investment. Tonight

:39:39.:39:43.

Instagram said the wording was confusing. Perhaps we need to think

:39:43.:39:45.

twice before uploading very personal photographs, without

:39:45.:39:55.

thinking of how and where they will be used in future.

:39:55.:40:01.

Jarard Lanier is a pie year who works for micro-- pioneer, who

:40:01.:40:05.

works for Microsoft, and interestingly, just since we have

:40:05.:40:09.

been on air, we have had this clarification, or blog, any way,

:40:09.:40:13.

from Instagram, because they have clearly worked out that this is

:40:13.:40:17.

slightly freaking people out. What do you understand they are saying

:40:17.:40:20.

now? This is a story really about three things. First of all, you can

:40:20.:40:24.

have a billion users, but it doesn't mean you are going to make

:40:24.:40:27.

money, just through the users. The second thing that is happening is

:40:27.:40:32.

we are moving over to these little devices, and the banner ad doesn't

:40:32.:40:37.

work on the mobile device. The big social networks are trying to get

:40:37.:40:41.

ways for companies to pay them to interrupt your conversation stream.

:40:41.:40:49.

They call it social commerce or tidesing, thirdly, we don't trust -

:40:49.:40:55.

- advertising. Thirdly, we don't trust Facebook, all the celebs have

:40:55.:40:59.

been saying delete your account. The founder of Instagram has said,

:40:59.:41:02.

we haven't actually changed anything, you have tried to clarify

:41:02.:41:06.

things because we are part of Facebook. Can they use the photos

:41:06.:41:11.

from January on wards or not? you put your photo on a social

:41:11.:41:14.

network, you agree to terms and conditions. Which allows them to do

:41:14.:41:17.

certain things. They need to store them on their servers, they also

:41:17.:41:22.

want f you say I like a brand, or there is a photo of you and the

:41:22.:41:29.

brand, they will now allow the brand to say "this is Emily with

:41:30.:41:33.

our burger ". Why should we be surprised this is happening? I

:41:33.:41:37.

guess this is the realisation, finally, that things do not come

:41:37.:41:45.

free? Facebook has been going back and forth with its users about this

:41:46.:41:51.

sort of thing for years. There is periodically some announcement that

:41:51.:41:54.

upsets people, and then a reaction against it. Then there will be a

:41:54.:41:59.

little bit of retreat on Facebook's part. By the way, we shouldn't

:41:59.:42:03.

single out Facebook, this is a generic quality of cloud companies

:42:03.:42:09.

these days. After a while the issue creeps back, over time the whole

:42:09.:42:13.

population of users, the whole population of the world, gets more

:42:13.:42:18.

and more used to this trade-off of getting things for free, but really

:42:18.:42:22.

not being in control any more. I think at some point it is up to

:42:23.:42:27.

us to decide whether we think this is a good bargain or not. I

:42:27.:42:31.

personally think it isn't leading to a good outcome, I prefer we have

:42:31.:42:38.

a different system. My prediction is a year from now the needle will

:42:38.:42:41.

have moved. What would be a better outcome, you would say better to be

:42:42.:42:45.

upfront. Charge people, know they are paying,

:42:45.:42:55.
:42:55.:42:56.

and have the peace of mind? better outcome would be give people

:42:56.:43:00.

a more ready way to make a decent living through the Internet and

:43:00.:43:03.

these services. We are creating an information economy. The core of it

:43:03.:43:06.

t the information is usually not something people can make a living

:43:06.:43:14.

from. So, I mean, if we lock ahead, decades hence, when we have self-

:43:14.:43:20.

driving cars and robots exploring for oil. I don't know how much

:43:20.:43:24.

automation there will be. At some point if we decide that the

:43:24.:43:28.

information coming from ordinary people is only to be shared, but

:43:28.:43:33.

when accumulated in the giant servers it turns into giant fortune,

:43:33.:43:37.

we can't build a sustainable economy that way. Facebook need to

:43:38.:43:41.

build enough trust to make sure people are willing to send money

:43:41.:43:50.

over for things, then we can built an information economy.

:43:51.:43:54.

Mark Zuckerburg has said he wants the world to share more and thinks

:43:54.:43:58.

the world will be a better place if it does. Are we buying into that

:43:58.:44:04.

now. That we are becoming less attached to a sense of privacy?

:44:04.:44:10.

He's trying to create a culture in which, we're more and more open.

:44:10.:44:13.

For business reasons that is great for him, he has data on what we

:44:13.:44:19.

like and don't like. The value in Facebook is the ability to monetise

:44:19.:44:23.

that data. If you are trying to be king of the castle and have the

:44:23.:44:26.

dominant social network. You want to give it away until you have as

:44:27.:44:32.

many people as possible and work out a way. There is a phrase doing

:44:32.:44:37.

in the rounds of the internet "if the service is free, then you are

:44:37.:44:41.

the product". Do you think that Facebook will ever really monetise

:44:41.:44:47.

in this way? Well, it is openly a self-defeating game. If what we

:44:47.:44:52.

think the information economy is, essentially, giving stuff away for

:44:52.:44:56.

advertising. Then as information technology gets more and more

:44:56.:44:59.

advanced. There will be less and less stuff that can be paid for.

:44:59.:45:02.

There will be nothing but advertising in the economy, and the

:45:02.:45:07.

whole thing collapses. It is an absurd idea. The information

:45:07.:45:12.

economy has to be about more than advertising, or it is a path to no

:45:12.:45:16.

where we can't make advertising be the core of our civilisation. That

:45:16.:45:19.

is essentially what we are trying to do here. Fascinating to hear

:45:19.:45:21.

from both of you. Thank you very much for coming in.

:45:22.:45:24.