18/12/2012 Newsnight

Has the euro crisis pushed fart right to prominence across the

continent. High unemployment, low self-esteem, and purist boundaries,

has put revolution back on the doorstep. TRANSLATION:

revolution comes when there is no bread left, then we will see shoot

gts and efrgs. New CCTV of plebgate, which shows a serving police

officer posing as a member of the public, and fabricated evidence

against Andrew Mitchell. The winners and losers of the next

round of Olympic funding, money for all the stuff we are really good at,

none for the sports we need to improve. Can that be right? We will

Why your photos could be worth millions to the site they are

posted on. Facebook wants to change the user terms of Instagram, could

every snap you share be used to make them money. Good evening. In

Greece, it is The Golden Calf, in Finland it is the True Finns, in

Hungary it is Jobbik. European parties of the far right, thriving

on the conflict. Spain has its answer to the

National Front. Growing every week. The eurocrisis has created

something of a nationalist revolt, that much, perhaps, was to be

anticipated. How much power do these parties really v and what do

they want to achieve. Paul Mason, do you believe there is

a pan-European trend at work here? In a word, no. Because we tend to

talk beginerically about far right parties -- genericly about far

right parties. The breakthrough at the moment was for Golde Dawn,

which was different to most of them in Greece. It was violent party t

had not renounced violence, it was able to score 9% in the election,

and is now on 14%. We are seeing the impact to resonate across

Europe, and affect the strategy of parties that have been up until now

totally marginal, and the Spanish far right, marginal and split into

several groups. I went to Valencia to try to catch one this group,

Espana 200 as it tries to adopt the gold -- Golden Dawn strategy, in a

different country which has different ways of confronting far

rightism. If there is one place that thrives

in a depression. It is the boxing ring.

With youth unemployment at 50%, many of these young men, from the

dock side area of Valencia, have no job and no chance of one. The owner

of the gym, a professional boxer, trains many of them for free.

TRANSLATION: I try to keep them from the streets, I would rather

them here rather than mugging people or taking drugs. Here they

have a sporting and healthy atmosphere, discipline and routine.

But this is no ordinary boxer, he's also a member of a far right party,

that aims, as Golden Dawn has done in Greece to make a political

breakthrough. The party is called Espana 2000, it is recruiting 30,

or 40 new members a week. Like many far right groups, it is growing

because people have lost hope in mainstream politics.

TRANSLATION: We have to serve the people, those who suffer hunger,

those that need help. You would like a revolution? But not from the

left? TRANSLATION: I want a revolution from the right, my hero

is the Nazi leader Rudolf Hess. I'm a nationalist socialist. For him,

the word revolution means just that. TRANSLATION: The revolution will

come when there is no bread yet, then we will see shootings and

everything. Of all the countries facing

economic crisis, Spain is facing the worst and probably the longest.

There will be mass unemployment here for a decade. But this is the

one country that has never really addressed what happened in the past.

In the 30s, in the 50s, under Franco's dictatorship. The problem

s if you are going to try to relief the 30s, with mass unemployment,

mass radicalisation, rubber bullets on the streets, you are going to

want to know what actually happened. The problem for many Spanish people

is they have no idea, there is no official memorial, there is no

official account, there is certainly no official reckoning,

with what happened. There is no memorial? No, there is hidden.

shrubland on the outskirts of Valencia, I'm taken to a place

where 3,200 people were shot in mass killings, by the dictatorship,

after the civil war had ended. in the middle of nowhere. There is

no memorial? In 1977, after the death of General Franco, Spain

passed an amnesty law, preventing the investigation of crimes

committed under the dictatorship. In Spain there was no

deNaziification, now this big act of forgetting, some say, could have

big consequences in these times. TRANSLATION: There is a big danger,

when there are people in the Government who have not distanced

themselves from Franco, how do you know when the crisis hits, that

they won't take off their suits, and reveal fascist ununiforms

underneath. -- Fascist uniforms underneath.

For now, the far right remains at the edges of mainstream politics,

but the edges are getting sharp. Last year, in the industrial town

of Onda, near Valencia, Espana 2000, held a torch-lit march, demanding

the closure of a local mosque. Their banners say "more jobs, less

immigrants", another message is clear. The police had to blockade

the street to prevent demonstrators from reaching the mosque.

In September 2012, the same mosque was firebombed. Somebody poured

lighter fuel under the front door and set it alight. We found here

the gasoline, right here. There was a fire. The front was badly damaged

and needed extensive repair work. This man teaches children here, he

says it was only the absence of carpet that prevented the fire from

spreading. The children you teach, how did they respond to the event?

They didn't like it T they can't accept this one. This is the job of

crazy people. Does that make people here frightened? Are you scared of

that? Yes. Espana 200 denies any involvement in the attack, the

police are investigating, but have not, so far, made Anne rest.

-- an arrest. Spain's economy has shrunk by 1.4% in 2012 it will do

the same again in 2013. But, as one year of recession spills into the

next, it is still surprising to find, openly, on the corner of an

ordinary street, an organisation that is preparing for civil war.

This is the leader of Espana 2000, Hugh Robertson. -- Jose Roberte.

He's a lawyer, he also own as network of boxing gym, and he's the

main man in the city's private security industry. That's Franco?

His involvement with the far right goes back to the Franco years. It

is card with Franco on the horse. "the leader"? Si. The whole set up

is very similar to Golden Dawn in Greece, while attacking immigration,

Europe and liberal social policies, they distribute food, advice and

shelter to the victims of the slump. This man says he came here because

he was made homeless by the crisis but now he shares the party's views.

It's a case of politics plus paella, the party wants to slim down

regional Governments, it wants import control, and Spanish-born

people to have priority in social services over migrants.

It is building a small base in local councils, in areas where

immigration is a key issue. After your march against the mosque,

the bossk was bombed, do you regret that happened? TRANSLATION: We are,

of course, against the burning of the mosque. But if someone, whether

they are party member, or someone from the neighbourhood, privately

does that, we are not responsible. I didn't say you were responsible,

I ask you do you regret that somebody firebombed the mosque?

TRANSLATION: We don't speak for others, it is not our business. The

person who did it must regret T it would be absurd for someone who

didn't do it to regret it. I skds him, with Spain's history -- I

asked him, with Spain's history with facisim, wasn't the party

playing with fire? TRANSLATION: Playing with fire? Look around you,

people are leaping from their balance niece. They can't feed

their children -- Balconies, they can't feed their children. We could

easily end up with social revolt. How far away do you think you are

from that moment? TRANSLATION: will use all democratic ways, if

the situation becomes extreme, it will be necessary to take to the

streets and use force. When people are leaping from their balconies,

you can't ask them to wait for elections. It is a clear statement

of intent. This is a party which, in the classic far right mould,

intends to deploy folks on the streets. But for now, it brings

activists, like the boxer, and those who have just come for the

paella. So far, even despite a year and a

bit of massive protests, the institutions in Spain have held

together. If they don't hold together, it is very clear there

are people ready to step in and do what the right in Spain has done

before. At a cemetery in Valencia, are the

mass graves of the victims of the fascist years. 53 bodies lie

beneath just this gravestone. Their faces and how they died added only

after Franco had gone. As the economic crisis deepens, old wounds

are reopening. Spain, for all its determination to forget, is no

different. I'm joined by Matthew Goodwin,

associate Professor at Nottingham University, an expert on the far

right. And the head of the Spanish socialist delegation at the

European Parliament, and from Madrid by the political analyst,

Miguel-Anxo Murado. Thanks to you all.

Let's pick up with Spain. The fascist past is very, very recent

there, when you look at a group like Espana 2000, though worried

are you? I'm worried about a crisis, this is a side effect of the crisis

s the crisis that brought about not only jingoism, a nationalism

feeling, but an impoverish ment of the working-class. That is the

ground where the fascist movement tried to take advantage, and the

window of opportunity to show bigger than they actually are. That

is not my major concern. My major concern is that, overall, the

discrediting of politics is demoralising so many. That these

fascist movements have a real chance to show up in parliament and

elected representative houses all across Europe. It has happened to

be the case of the European Parliament, it is also the case of

a number of parliament houses all across Europe. When times are tough,

when the economics are tough, why aren't they turning to your party,

why aren't they looking for socialists to pull them out of this,

why would they turn to the far right, then? They turn to the far

right because they are taking the pain. They are in despair. They

have been made hopeless. So many have been made angry, they are

trying to scapegoat all around the place. Let's scapegoat Muslims,

let's scapegoat Roma people and their communities. Let's scapegoat

southern European, Portuguese, Italian, Spaniards, which are

depicted as lazy, or non- competitive or non-productive

enough. Scapegoating all around the place. It is the ground where all

these extreme far right movements are taking advantage. The major

concern is that we are not going to defeat it by taking the banners,

which is the temptation of a number of conventional, conservative

parties, taking the banners of far right movements.

I think I understand that. When you hear that, "taking the

banners", in other words not trying to move towards their ground S that

the right way of reading this situation --. Is that the right way

of reading this situation? I'm not sure, I share the concern but not

the alarm. In the case of Spain, these are really fringe groups. We

are talking about groups that gather say 2,000 votes, 3,000 voit.

The most successful party -- votes. The most successful party of this

type, a Catlonian party, it was down by previous results. It is not

an imminent threat. What is more interesting is they are not really

benefiting from the crisis. They are not having their best results

now. In the same vain, a driving force behind these parties is going

down in Spain. Since the crisis has started. It was much bigger prior

to the crisis. I guess this is a new group, as Paul says, it is one

that has just started to emerge now, Matthew Goodwin, when you look at

the situation across Europe, and as Paul made clear, they are very

different groups, but we do see the far right emerge anything Hungary,

and Greece now, where it has parliamentary presence as well. In

Finland, is this just a blip caused by the economics or is it something

more? I think it is more complex. Firstly, we need to get the picture

in context, the movement in the piece there, actually, to my

knowledge, has only one or two local councillors from over 9,000

in Spain. The far right is not jeornly on the march and about to

take -- generally on the march and about to take power in Europe. We

have fallen into this narrative that has said economic crisis and

scarcity equals extremism. If that is the case, let's look at Austria,

the least unemployment rate in the eurozone, the far right is

currently polling between 21-25%, and will probably join Government

next year. Let's take account into the fact that the parties have been

on the rise since the early 1980s. Look at Golden Dawn, a concrete

example of a far right party that has taken the place of the party on

the right that went before it, and has got 9% and parliamentary

presence? If we read the newspapers Golden Dawn is running the country.

It is still a marginal player in the Greek system, however alarming

it is. If these parties are looking at Golden Dawn and saying we can

emulate that, if you look at the Front National, which is what Marie

Le Pen got, it is not exceptional, but it is an improvement? The far

right, as a collective family of parties in Europe, has been on the

go, during periods of economic stability, and growth, as well as

stagnation and austerity. What is important is to ask people why they

are supporting the far right. Its not because of economic threat, it

is a feeling that values, national identity, and the broader national

culture are threatened by diversity. If the move towards more fiscal

union, more integration, this is going to be something that people

feel even more intensely, that they don't control their own countries?

That is one of the grounds for nationalism on the right, not the

only one. Of course it is different feelings about diversity theself.

That is the nature of extreme right movements in Spain. They have

always hated Spanish national idea tee, Spanish linguistic identity.

They have always fought against regional nationalism, now they

fight against the did I picketed external enemies of the national

ining at the a unity of Spain, as is the case of the called Muslim

invasion and migration. Migration is not on the rise any more. It is

not a problem. No press, no comments are now made about the

threat of migration. But, yet, the extreme right movements are trying

to depict the devil in every sign of peculiar pluralism within the

Spanish social fabric. Do you buy the argument that because of

Spain's failure to deal with the Franco years properly is the cause?

I'm not sure. There is a misunderstanding usually with Spain

with regards to these. We tend to think of Spain as a country prone

to facisim, because it did have a dictatorship for such a long time.

The main bit here, which is that dictatorship needed a war to impose

itself, nothing to do with Germany voting in the Nazi, or Italy, not

even needing to vote them. Because they were so popular. Spain did not

have Just one single seat, the fascist party before the war. And

one seat after Franco's dictatorship, they lost that one

now and they have none now. I wouldn't make a connection between

the fringe movements and far right know.S and Franco's -- Franco

movements, and the far right movements. It is true that within

the Conservative Party in Spain, the People's Party, there is a

sector, which is nostalgic of Franco, or of the narrative of

history of the Franco period. I wouldn't say they are Francoists,

it is not exactly that. It is true they have difficulty in dealing

with the past in Spain. And your reporter was talking about this

issue. It is a serious problem. I don't think we can call it a

Francoist party. Do you think we are immune to this

here? Would r we haven't seen a rise of the right? We have seen a

resurgence of the British National Party and the English Defence

League. But the common theme across Europe is we have demand across the

countries. Worries about immigration and Islam, and

dissatisfaction about the way mainstream parties are performing

on those issues. Do you think the parties have met that concern?

was my point. The key word here is "supply". What we see in Spain is a

poor supply. Parties that are not organised, not adept at mobilising

that demand at elections. Thank you very much. Number Ten has said the

claims that a serving police officer posed as a member of the

public to fabricate an account of the Andrew Mitchell row in Downing

Street are exceptionally serious. They have called for the police to

get to the bottom of this as a matter of urgency. The allegations

rose after Channel 4 News showed unreleased footage of Mr Mitchell

from that infamous night in September. You are here to take us

through a new set of regulations, that are complicated? Andrew

Mitchell always denied using those very toxic words as described to

him, the word "pleb", and the use of "moran" and an angry tirade

against police officers, stopping him cycling through Downing Street,

and forcing him through a side entrance. Two pieces of evidence

that did for Andrew Mitchell, the official police log from on-duty

officers at Downing Street at the time, it was clear, precise and

detailed, it used the word "pleb" and a lot more. Mr Mitchell

disputed this. He said had he had sworn, but only under his breath in

frustration, saying "I thought you people were supposed to f-ing help

us". Another piece of evidence came that did for him. It is a

corroberative e-mail from maybe of the public, who had been on the

other side of the gate at Downing Street, and witnessed it through

the gates. This was written to a colleague of Mr Mitchell's in the

whip's office. It found its way to the heart of Government. This e-

mail, supposedly from a member of the public had said that the police

account, or coroborated the police account, almost word for word, and

also said other members of the public had seen the incident and

some maybe had filmed it. Tonight there are allegations that e-mail

of not from a member of the public, but a serving police officer. If

true, that is explosive. Tonight, Downing Street have issued the

following statement. "Any allegation that is a serving police

officer posed as a member of the public and fabricated evidence

against a cabinet minister are exceptionally serious. It is

therefore essential that the police get to the bottom of this as a

matter of urgency". This witness doesn't seem to have been there,

what about the witnesses that were there? It is interesting, as you

said in the introduction, Channel 4 News have got hold of the CCTV

footage. This is one of the angles from inside Downing Street. There

you see Mr Mitchell wheeling his bike to the side gate. Now,

maddeningly and frustratingly there is no audio, we can't lip read, it

is too fuzzy for that. Let's look at another angle. This time from

outside the gates of Downing Street. There we are, there is the street,

with a bus going past. This is what was happening at the same time

outside the gates of Downing Street. As you are looking at that, let me

read you the official log of what happened at the time. "There were

several members of the public present, as is the norm, opposite

the pedestrain gates. As we neared it, Mr Mitchell said "best you

learn your F-ing place, you don't run this f-ing Government, you are

just plebs, the members of the public looked shocked". Plenty of

those around Westminster say that version of events doesn't

correspond with the CCTV pictures we saw there.

Very interesting, what happens now? We do know that one police

constable in the Diplomatic Protection Group, has been arrested

on suspicion of misconduct in a public office. He has been bailed

to a date in January. The Metropolitan Police say their

investigations continue. UK sport has been accused of

reneging on a promise to rebuild sport. The national sport agencies

announced that �347 million will be distributed, with the biggest

medal-winning sports taking the largest slice of the pie.

Olympic table tennis player, now sports writer for the times has our

report on this tonight. You may be aware that Great Britain

did rather well at the Olympic and Paralympic Games this summer. Team

GB and Paralympics GB, each came third in the medal table,

destroying traditional rivals, like Germany and Australia.

But there was another, more covert battle going on at London 2012. The

fight between British sports for crucial Government funding. And in

that battle, there are clear winners and some huge losers.

Boxing, which punched above its weight at the London games, is one

of the winners. The sport was rewarded for its five

medals with a 44% increase in funding. Other sports which proved

their worth at 2012, also received big increase. Including rowing, top

of the funding pile, with �32 million, equestrian with �18.9 bill

-- �17.9 million. And track cycling with �30 million. But basketball,

that didn't win any medals nothing aurblgts table tennis, nothing,

handball, nothing. The sheer ruthlessness has left many reeling.

But does the policy make sense. The entire logic of using public

money to fund elite success, is to encourage youngsters to take up

sport. How many youngsters could realistically take up rowing or

sailing, even if they wanted to. What message does it send to the

tens of thousands of young people involved in basketball, an

accessible sport, when the national team, to which they aspire, gets

nothing. What you can say for the policy, is in terms it of the

specific objective of winning Olympic medals, has been a triumph.

Rock bottom was 196 in Atlanta, we only won one gold medal and 36th in

the medals table. We have always come 13th,th in previous Olympics.

The first change was the introduction of the National

Lottery which gave Government resources to sport elite sport

development. The other change was an organisational one, the

establishment of US Sport, with a specific brief to deliver medals

for the Olympic Games. But they have not just spent money

for the sake of it, they have been rather more cunning than that?

competitiveness of the 100ms is intense by comparison to other

sports, some events in sailing, some in cycling, the number of

competitor, and you could organise the quality of the competitors is

dramatically different. If you are trying to maximise your medals, you

look for the easier targets. You look for the sports where the

quality and quantity of competition is lower.

The genius of Britain's elite sports policy is also its greatest

weakness. We could spend half our GDP on football, without

guarnteeing success, but with sports like sailing w few global

participants and loads of medals up for grabs, the funding is potent.

The problem is simple, in the cleverly-funded sports, mass

participation is virtually impossible.

With funding secure until 2016, Team GB has a fighting chance of

winning even more medals at the Olympics in -- and Paralympics next

time than at home in London. It would be the first team to achieve

that feat in recent history. For kids hoping to make the stop in

socially inclusive sports, like basketball and table tennis. They

better think again. Grassroots money may be in place, that is not

really the point. Elite funding for world class coaching and sports

science, crucial for the most able youngsters to fulfil their

potential, has just been obliterated.

Joining me in the studio is Liz Nicholl, chief executive of UK

sport, and Paul Goodman, chief executive of the UK Handball

Association. One of the sports that lost out today. This is tacit

indication this is about winning and medal haul, that is cold and

calculated? It is all about investing in success and building

on the legacy of the success in London, to ensure, in fact, as we

move through London to Rio, we can aspire to do better. People thought

legacy was not just about medals. They thought it was about

investment in youth, socially inclusive sports. Giving people the

sense they could achieve. That doesn't come into your equation at

all. It is both of those things, but US sport's unique

responsibility is success. We have to build a performance system

sustainable that creates success after success in successive games.

You write off sports like handball, volley ball, table tennis,

financially they are written off? There is parallel investment going

in to increase it from sport England and other Sports Council

that have the remilt of developing talent. We are focusing

unapologetically on delivering medals. It is absolutely

unapologetic, and hard-nosed, that is what it is about? We have known

for a long time, the principles of UK sports funding. But we did

expect, as most members of the public did, that there would be a

model in the place to build upon the good work that has been done

since the London Olympics, such as sports like handball. What will

happen to handball now? We will have to take stock over the next

few days, and talk to those who have done a great job at the

grassroots level, but I take issue on the amount of money going into

handball at groos roots level, is fraction of what we have lost.

is about winning medals and getting goals for Britain? We totally

understand that, there is no solution in place at present to

bridge the gap from talented young athletes, to become senior athletes

that represent GB. What happens, what would you advise them now,

would you say, get all those kids playing handball to do something

more lucrative? Wient say that, I would say, sports like handball, I

would say that, sports like handball, qualified because there

was a host nation place. They had a fantastic opportunity to showcase

their sport and drive further interest in their sport, to

encourage people to participate in it. There is a fantastic

opportunity. They are rubbish is that it? If we had not had the

games in London in 2012 we wouldn't have funded handball, volley ball

and basketball. Wuent like to see them qualify on their own --

wouldn't you like to see them qualify on their own merits?

want to see it through increasing participation, developing the club

structure, and the talent, looking for performance I will improvement.

If they come back in a few years time, have a look at us, we can do

it. They are too grown up for you right now, you are the little kids

that need to work harder? That is how it feels, actually,

realistically, our sport is absolutely huge in the rest of

Europe. Yet, for some reason, in this nation, we tend to just keep

being fed a staple diet of the same sports. 400,000 people, I know they

are not British, but they came and watched handball at the Olympic

Games, so many people have taken up the sport since. If you are looking

at it from a completely money perspective, can't you say, cycling,

sailing, they will get funding from massive sponsors now, from

corporate level. These are the guys that could be sharing the medal

haul in eight years time? You saw the opening pictures, elite success

costs a lot of money. We are happy with just elite success, it sounds

like elite sport success? We are responsible for that, but

underpinning that is a significant investment, about another half a

billion pound investment, in developing talent by sports England

only announced yesterday. Handball is in that. A lot of the sports

getting the major funding are elitist, handball, basketball,

these are sports for the majority of the population. The nation

enjoyed fantastic success in 2012 we celebrated every medal, whatever

the sport. Give up handball and do more athletics, is that the way you

are going here? I don't think it will wash. We need to keep on at UK

sports and others to find a solution to this, because we are

second-rate nations where those team sports are concerned.

Facebook is in the eye of the storm tonight, after announcing it will

change users' term force the photo- sharing site Instagram. There was

fury to think that pictures could be used as paid content. Instagram

said it will revise the language in the terms, and photos will not

accompany adverts, they will still seek ways of raising money.

Subjecting the company is desperately trying to support the

service it paid a billion dollars for a year ago.

There was a time, EONs ago, when we used to print out photographs and

store them in large binder, called albums. Nowadays photo albums are

stored in outer space for all to say see. One of those free sites is

Instagram, free comes at a rights. Facebook wants to get some of the

money back it had when it bought it, by selling your pictures to other

companies. Overnight they changed terms and conditions to allow

another group or identity to display your photographs without

any compensation to you. Although highly unlikely, that

could have meant photos of your children appearing alongside advert

force babey products. And you would get no money for it. This isn't the

first time that face Boca has been taken to task over this. When you

press a "like" put on for an ad on the page, you are saying you like

it. I'm not saying I advertise this? I suppose when you, let's

pause, that is an interesting... You're asking a profound question,

what's advertising? How has the tech community reacted to the

change in how photographs can be treated? It is unexpected, that's

for sure, for any of these services, these cloud services that we are

entrusting our personal data to. We simply don't expect that to happen.

I think the fact that Instagram have made this move as quickly as

they have, with such far-reaching personal consequences, is

definitely ering on the side of ill-advised. Instagram users have

until January 15th to delete their account in full f they no longer

want their photographs sold on to advertisers, if they don't, where

do they stand illegally? If the image was used without your consent,

in some cases you would have rights to object. If you owned the

copyright of the photograph you could stop that, or it give a

misleading impression of you, some how negative. You are consenting

now if you are a user to your image being used in that way. You are

getting rid of that control, you are sacrificing the control you

previously had. Just as free banking is not

necessarily free, someone has to pay for free photo-sharing.

Facebook had long since postponed monetising its one billion users

worldwide, for fear it would make them uncool. Now it is a publicly

listed company, the shareholders want a return on their hitherto

lost-making investment. -- Lost-making investment. Tonight

Instagram said the wording was confusing. Perhaps we need to think

twice before uploading very personal photographs, without

thinking of how and where they will be used in future.

Jarard Lanier is a pie year who works for micro-- pioneer, who

works for Microsoft, and interestingly, just since we have

been on air, we have had this clarification, or blog, any way,

from Instagram, because they have clearly worked out that this is

slightly freaking people out. What do you understand they are saying

now? This is a story really about three things. First of all, you can

have a billion users, but it doesn't mean you are going to make

money, just through the users. The second thing that is happening is

we are moving over to these little devices, and the banner ad doesn't

work on the mobile device. The big social networks are trying to get

ways for companies to pay them to interrupt your conversation stream.

They call it social commerce or tidesing, thirdly, we don't trust -

- advertising. Thirdly, we don't trust Facebook, all the celebs have

been saying delete your account. The founder of Instagram has said,

we haven't actually changed anything, you have tried to clarify

things because we are part of Facebook. Can they use the photos

from January on wards or not? you put your photo on a social

network, you agree to terms and conditions. Which allows them to do

certain things. They need to store them on their servers, they also

want f you say I like a brand, or there is a photo of you and the

brand, they will now allow the brand to say "this is Emily with

our burger ". Why should we be surprised this is happening? I

guess this is the realisation, finally, that things do not come

free? Facebook has been going back and forth with its users about this

sort of thing for years. There is periodically some announcement that

upsets people, and then a reaction against it. Then there will be a

little bit of retreat on Facebook's part. By the way, we shouldn't

single out Facebook, this is a generic quality of cloud companies

these days. After a while the issue creeps back, over time the whole

population of users, the whole population of the world, gets more

and more used to this trade-off of getting things for free, but really

not being in control any more. I think at some point it is up to

us to decide whether we think this is a good bargain or not. I

personally think it isn't leading to a good outcome, I prefer we have

a different system. My prediction is a year from now the needle will

have moved. What would be a better outcome, you would say better to be

upfront. Charge people, know they are paying,

and have the peace of mind? better outcome would be give people

a more ready way to make a decent living through the Internet and

these services. We are creating an information economy. The core of it

t the information is usually not something people can make a living

from. So, I mean, if we lock ahead, decades hence, when we have self-

driving cars and robots exploring for oil. I don't know how much

automation there will be. At some point if we decide that the

information coming from ordinary people is only to be shared, but

when accumulated in the giant servers it turns into giant fortune,

we can't build a sustainable economy that way. Facebook need to

build enough trust to make sure people are willing to send money

over for things, then we can built an information economy.

Mark Zuckerburg has said he wants the world to share more and thinks

the world will be a better place if it does. Are we buying into that

now. That we are becoming less attached to a sense of privacy?

He's trying to create a culture in which, we're more and more open.

For business reasons that is great for him, he has data on what we

like and don't like. The value in Facebook is the ability to monetise

that data. If you are trying to be king of the castle and have the

dominant social network. You want to give it away until you have as

many people as possible and work out a way. There is a phrase doing

in the rounds of the internet "if the service is free, then you are

the product". Do you think that Facebook will ever really monetise

in this way? Well, it is openly a self-defeating game. If what we

think the information economy is, essentially, giving stuff away for

advertising. Then as information technology gets more and more

advanced. There will be less and less stuff that can be paid for.

There will be nothing but advertising in the economy, and the

whole thing collapses. It is an absurd idea. The information

economy has to be about more than advertising, or it is a path to no

where we can't make advertising be the core of our civilisation. That

is essentially what we are trying to do here. Fascinating to hear

from both of you. Thank you very much for coming in.