19/12/2012 Newsnight

BBC in chaos, the tabloid headline seems to have been right. The

management of Britain's biggest cultural organisation is indeed

chaotic. The independent inquiry has disclosed incompetence,

cavalier decision-make, buck- passing and extraordinary absent-

mindedness. Tonight we talk to the acting director-general of the BBC

about how the organisation hopes to win back trust after the Savile

scandal, and how he thinks it can go forward without sacking a single

person responsible for the mess. Why does Britain have the highest

rate of teenage pregnancies in western Europe. An influential

Conservative MP thinks it is time for all schools to have to teach

young people about relationships, and for this young mum, the price

of becoming a parent. I wouldn't regret a molt with her, but I would

say, if I had my time with her, and I could choose the timing, I would

choose it for definitely later on. How much later on? Sorry? Ten years,

maybe? These last few weeks have not been

happy ones on Newsnight. Senior figures on this programme made not

one, but two bad judgments. First, not broadcasting an investigation

into Jimmy Savile, and then, putting out another in which basic

journalistic checks hadn't been made.

Today the BBC removed the editor and deputy editor concerned, after

two investigations that tried to discover how the mistakes had been

made. Some pretty scathing conclusions were reached, which the

organisation says will be acted upon. Yet, no sackings. Because it

seems odd for us to try to report on ourselves, we have invited James

Robbins to do so. The BBC was braced for heavy

criticism, that is what it got. Nick Pollard found chaos, confusion,

disarray, disru trust. The biggest which for his inquiry, is why did

Newsnight drop an investigation into Jimmy Savile as a paedophile,

while the BBC did broadcast a series of tribute programmes.

the full force of the row broke thisy, the BBC management system

proved completely incapable of dealing with T the level of Kay a

confusion was even greater than was apparent at the time. Several --

chaos and confusion was even greater than the was apparent at

the time. Several people were trying to get the truth of the

Savile story, but leadership and organisation seemed to be in short

supply. Two days after the death of Jimmy Savile, Newsnight began its

investigation. The reporter was Liz Mackean and the producer, Meirion

Jones, but then, after almost six weeks of investigation, the story

was dropped by Newsnight editor, Peter Rippon. More than nine months

later, ITV broadcast its own investigation into Savile. The

crisis over the BBC decision to sit on the story exploded. Following

that ITV programme, many more allegations of sexual abuse emerged.

The Metropolitan Police launched a formal criminal investigation

Operation Yewtree. The BBC started its own series of inquiries,

today's Pollard Report is crucial in the outcome. Meanwhile,

Newsnight editor, Peter Rippon, stepped aside from his job. Last

month the Director General resigned, after a separate Newsnight report,

that was broadcast, wrongly accused a leading Conservative of child sex

abuse. It was the true story about Savile Newsnight dropped, that

started the havoc. The Newsnight investigators got the

story right. They had found clear and compelling evidence that Jimmy

Savile was a paedophile. The decision by their editor to drop

the original investigation was clearly flawed, and the way it was

taken was wrong. Though I believe it was done in good faith. It was

not done to protect the Savile tribute programmes, or for any

improper reason. The Newsnight editor's most serious mistake was

that he didn't look properly at the evidence before deciding to drop

the story. It's not surprise, therefore, that he didn't

understand the evidence that he had, and that was to cause enormous

confusion in the months to come. Peter Rippon has now been removed

as editor of Newsnight, he will a, apparently -- he will, apparently,

get another BBC job. The two journalists involved in the story

feel vindicated. Pollard said they were right about the programme, and

the programme could have released the story almost a year before IVT

I think the decision to drop our story was a breach of the duty to

the women who trusted us to tell us that Jimmy Savile was a paedophile.

Many found it difficult to share their experiences as vulnerable

girls. Our editor didn't watch the main interview with our witness.

Nick Pollard did, and found her credible and compelling, as did we.

But if people expected a raft of sackings today, that is not the BBC

response. Just one executive has fallen on his sword. Resigning,

ahead of his expected retirement next year. He's Steve Mitchell,

deputy Head of News, and Peter Rippon's immediate boss. Nick

Pollard criticises him heavily, saying he can't understand Mr

Mitchell's decision to take the Newsnight Savile inquiry off the

BBC's own internal watch list, which flags up, across the BBC,

programmes that might carry an element of risk. Steve Mitchell's

decisions matter, because if the investigation had stayed on the

list, Nick Pollard says, it could have opened the door for

appropriate conversations among senior BBC management, about the

nature of the Newsnight investigation and the drib tuet

programmes. -- tribute programmes. By contrast,

Steve Mitchell's boss, Boaden borbgsd is criticised, but survives.

One criticism of her, raising the Newsnight Savile investigation with

George Entwistle at an awards lunch, was too casual, too fleeting and

left much uncertainty about the outcome. But the Pollard report

find that is she did not exert undue pressure on Peter Rippon,

before he dropped the story. So did the BBC do enough to help the

police? Nick Pollard also makes clear the Newsnight evidence

against Jimmy Savile should have been passed to the police. In fact,

it wasn't for ten months. Scotland Yard say 450 alleged

victims of Savile have now come forward. 80% were children, or

young people at the time. The lawyer for some of them says BBC

delay alerting the police has hurt. What it does show is that there was

12 months of very, very unnecessary delay, and what we ask ourselves,

what would have happened if the exposure documentary had not gone

out. 12 months is a very long time in the suffering of these victims.

I know that some of them have taken a long time to air their stories.

But once they have obtained the courage to do so, they really need

closure as quickly as possible. Where does this leave wider

questions about the BBC and Savile? Pollard does quote internal BBC e-

mails about tribute programmes, immediately after his death. One

talks about the "darker side of the story". That whole culture of

silence or near silence about Savile, stretches back decades. It

is still being investigated. start tonight with a

statement...Today The BBC Trust published a separate report on the

Newsnight film that led to Lord McAlpine being wrongly named as a

paedophile. The trustees found that it followed largely from a failure

by members of the team to follow the BBC's own editorial guidelines.

So does the BBC really get the scale of today's criticism? And

what does it have to do now to restore its most precious commodity.

The trust of BBC audiences, the license fee payers.

As well as making programmes, the BBC commissions regular polling

about audience responses. Recently, it has been tracking a dein trust

of the BBC. Marked -- a decline in trust of the BBC. Marked out of ten,

the audiences gave an average of 6.7 for this year, it peaked at 6.8

after the Olympics, as the present crisis broke, it fell to a low of

6.2 in October, and a further low of 6 in November. The license fee

payers' trust has been falling in the last few months, do you think

this will draw a line under all this, how will you restore trust

and has it got serious long-term implications for the BBC? Trust in

the BBC has undoubtedly been affected by what has happened. It

still remains, according to most of the evidence I have seen,

extraordinarily high, and trust in the BBC remains greater than that

in any other news organisation. But we can't be complacent about that,

and we have to do everything we can to rebuild trust to the level ofs

which it has been at historically. Today, the independent member of

the BBC's executive board laid out her view of the task ahead.

raises basic questions about the way we work, how we make decisions,

how we communicate, and indeed questions about leadership. We will

take action, we will take action within news, to address the

specific challenges raised. And we will take action more widely, to

create the conditions within which the BBC's long and honourable

tradition of creative, confident, high-quality journalism and

programme-making can continue. So, will today prove a watershed

moment for the BBC? Well, it could. But Nick Pollard in his report

calls for urgent action. Above all he blames a critical lack of

leadership, and says the BBC's news and editorial management needs to

be reviewed. The BBC's acting Director General,

Tim Davie, is here. First off, Nick Pollard concludes that the

Newsnight evidence on Jimmy Savile's paedophilia should have

been passed to the police. You have heard about the trauma one of the

lawyers representing those women says it has caused, not to have

done so, do you want to offer an apology for the fact that it wasn't

passed on at the time? I think we absolutely regret that information

wasn't passed on. What is clear, and Nick Pollard made this clear in

his statements today, was, at the time, the decisions were made in

good faith, in terms of what people thought the police knew. There were

mistakes made. In terms of the latest information flow between the

police and ourselves on the current cases, I would say we are making

very, very good progress in that regard. As far as that particular

case you would like to apologise? Absolutely.

In terms of rebuilding trust, which is clearly the key thing here, how

on earth will you do that when many of the same people are still in

post? I think the first thing is, let's talk about what would build

trust back for the BBC. We have got a very good record of actually

doing that. Actually Jeremy, versus other institutions over the last

four years, we have seen consistent good numbers, and growing trust in

the BBC. How we have done that is by delivering flawless programming,

so absolutely delivering the programmes. That is the first thing,

I don't think it is mainly about what executives are in or out, it

is that we are delivering the programme, it is not to say they

are sacked. Nobody has been? This for any organisation. The answer to

the question is yes or no, has anyone been sacked? The Director

General has resigned. Before the report was fub illusioned? Directly

as a -- Published? Directly as a result of the organisation. He gets

a big pay out? We have had another very senior person in the news

organisation offer their resignation. This is Steve Mitchell,

who is actually, apparently, retiring rather than resigning?

has offered his resignation today. Is he ever going to be back in the

office? He will come back and hand over his job, but he is resigning.

It is as simple as that. He's leaving the BBC. No ambiguity.

statement says he's retiring? Someone who has been doing 38

service of the BBC, once they resign, they are, by definition,

retiring from their period at the BBC. There is a notice period, will

he be working then? He will hand over his job during the notice

period. How long is that notice period? Six month. He will still be

working for a further six months a being paid for a further six

months? And then leave, absolutely. At the same level of

responsibility? Absolutely. continues with the same level of

responsibility, drawing the same salary, for six months, and then he

retires on a BBC pension? He leaves the BBC and retires on a BBC

pension, absolutely. Would you describe that as a resignation,

retirement or a sacking? I would say he has decided to leave the BBC

and he has resigned. Can we look at the question of Helen Boaden, head

of the news division, under whom confidence will have to be restored.

Lord Patten said something in the management of the news division had

gone Kay youthically wrong. How can it -- chaoticly wrong --

chaoticically wrong. How can it be restored? The key accusation is

senior management had worked to cover up a story. That is not what

Pollard says, he acquits them of that? Well said, that is what I'm

talking about. He says there is complete chaos? He said the

handling of the blog, the way the situation developed, that was

chaotic, I accept that, absolutely. He said people did not act in bad

faith. He said a lot of people couldn't remember why they had done

things. Right, but what I would say to everyone, read the report.

Success is not how many people I dismiss, it is about making a fair

and proper judgment on the facts in front of me. And make sure the BBC

is able to rebuild trust. When the BBC, in Lord Patten's words, has

"gone wrong", it just be restored like that? That is why we have lost

our Editor in Chief, the leader of the whole organisation has resigned.

You can't get more fundamental than that in terms of changing the

organisation. He resigned, as we agreed, before either of the

reports was published? He resigned in response to these events. We

have the head of the news department tomorrow, back in

business, doing exactly what she did before.

Absolutely not. She has been told to change has she? All of the

management, myself included, absolutely see this report as a

wake-up call in terms of the culture of the BBC and how we work.

The idea that you have to sack someone to lead to cultural change,

I think, is flawed. Has she been told to do her job differently

then? All of us in the senior management of the BBC, if you look

at the scale of the criticism, injure me the idea we turn up to

work and keep doing what we are doing is not acceptable. As a

leader of the BBC, I do think we have to change. What will she do

differently? I won't make it personal, this is not just about

one leader, it is about how we lead across the BBC. What about the

editor of Newsnight, he hasn't been sacked, he is paid tomorrow the

same as yesterday? I'm not dismissing the editor of Newsnight,

he's moving to another role in the BBC. With no editorial

responsibility, what is this job he's going to? We haven't agreed a

job for him yet. You haven't invented him a job yet? We are not

inventing any jobs. But he gets the same salary without the same

responsibility? If you move jobs you don't have the same

responsibility. I can't be clearer, my job is not to just dismiss

people, my job is to make a fair and balanced assessment of the

facts. We have lost the Director General in this process, we all

need to accept change, the only way to change is to change the culture,

and that is not going to be done, however many people we call to

dismiss, it will be done by people like me, leading the organisation,

and changing the culture. Let's look at it from the other end,

Helen Boaden offered her resignation to George Entwistle, he

rejected it, would you have accepted it? No. I want people to

work at changing the culture of the BBC, that is what I'm about. That

is, indeed, almost your whole resson dettre, the whole point of

your -- raison d'etre, building confidence in the BBC for the

license payer? Building trust in the BBC has to be the job of any

leader in the BBC. Do you recognise this picture of ifpt, chaotic --

incompetent, chaotic, and back- stabbing management painted in the

Pollard report? I think there were pockets of particularly bad and

sorry sagas, when you look at the Newsnight issues. Having said that,

there are issues I recognise that are common across the BBC. And

being totally transparent about it, as someone who has led many

corporations, one of the things that, been a leader in many

corporations, one of the things I see, is there was a clear learning

in Pollard that the BBC could be better connected, we could share

information better, we could act on those signals that came up. With

hindsight, of course we could do better. It is up to me to set a

clear leadership agenda around that, and then Tony Hall who is coming in

as Director General, to take that on. This is all in the context of

extremely tight resources. �2 million has been blown on this

inquiry, you are now shifting a lot of people into jobs of the same

saleriess, but without the same responsibilities. -- salaries,

without the same responsibilities? They are in different

responsibilities. In terms of the price of the report, we had

accusations of a cover-up on the BBC. Yeah? A cover-up in proper

pressure. I can tell you one thing, if you need to rebuild trust, the

first thing we could not have hanging over us, is the allegation

of a cover-up. I know that cost a lot of money. Many will argue now,

did we need to have that big process? The truth is, I think it

was very important to establish the facts today. Do you think it was a

proper use of the license fee, do you? I think it was the right thing

to do. Was it the proper use of the license fee? In that regard, yes.

For an organisation that has a �3.6 billion revenue, the idea to spend.

Not very much you seem to be suggesting? I think it is a

significant amount of money. But I do think that money, it was right

to spend that money, because we had an allegation that was very

fundamental to trust in the BBC. I think that is important. It is

worth saying that I have set the challenge to the organisation not

to take money out of programming, you will be pleased to hair, to

fund that -- Hear, to fund that. What about Pollard's assertion that

the job of the Director General is too much for one person, does it

feel like that for you? It is a big debating point, always has been. I

personally believe it is possible for one person to do the job. The

critical thing is the support systems underneath them, the people

that are working round that person, and the information coming into

that person. Also how they lead. You know, I could give numerous

examples of very big corporations that are well led by one individual.

I think it is a possible job. As per the Pollard recommendations,

that is worthy of consideration, I'm sure it will be a topic that

keeps coming round. So reappoint a Deputy Director General? That is

one of many solutions. I'm not in favour of adding a lot of layers,

for what it is worth. I think that is not the right response, to add

more layers. There is a glorious irony here, people say put in more

people, actually, what I think it is not about that, it is about

clarity, simplicity of structure, and actually just clear

accountability. That is what comes through the report.

It is one of this country's unwanted distinctions, we have the

highest rates of teenage pregnancy and I borgs in western Europe.

Leaving aside what -- abortion in western Europe. Leaving aside what

having a baby so early does to young people's life chances.

Youthful and unplanned family planning is seriously costly for

the state. One of the leading MPs in one of the parties has said it

doesn't have to be like that. And with more sex and relationship

education, there could be many fewer children bearing children.

First, here is our political editor with some baby statistics.

First up, the good news, at least in part, the number of under-age

teenage mums in England and Wales has been falling steadily over the

past decade. From more than 4,000 in 1998, to 2,500 in 20 10. Despite

this downward trend, it is still a large number of young teenage girls

going on to give birth. In fact, we have the highest rate in western

Europe. Figures from the United Nations, throughout the different

age ranges from 15-19, you will see this issue is bedevilled with

different ways of measuring the Ever since 1992 when then Social

Security Secretary, Peter Lilley used a speech at conference to

decry young ladies who get pregnant to jump the housing list, the

Conservative Party has had an awkward handle on the issue of

unplanned pregnancy now one new Conservative MP has decided to get

to grips with it. Newsnight went to her constituency, Hastings, itself

once a hot spot for parents having babies they didn't plan, even if

they wanted them. Day break in Hastings.

All this young mum wants for Christmas is a lie-in. Whitney is

one the fishermen to get her seven- month-old daughter out of bed.

Gracie slept very well last night, better than she has done for a

while. A bit of respite for mum and dad.

This is Whitney Potter, she's 18, along with her boyfriend ci, they

live with her mum and three siblings. Whitney and Chris didn't

quite plan to start their family in the way they did. Back when Whitney

was 17, but they Z now she's one of Britain's reduced, but still very

high numbers of teenage mums. Before you conceived, what did you

think, I'm 16, these are my options? I was at college at the

time, I was doing a sports course. I was really enjoying it. But, I

don't know, I kind of had these two frame of minds, I'm loving what I'm

doing at the moment at college. And then on the other hand, I wanted to

start a family. What do you think of that decision in retrospect?

think, I wouldn't regret a moment with her, but I would say if I had

my time again, and I could choose the timing, I would choose it for

definitely later on. How much later on? Sorry? Ten years maybe, I

wanted to be able to you know, get my college sorted, and maybe hold

down a job, and once I'm pregnant I could go on maternity leave, and

then come back after she's old enough. You know, do it like that.

But you can't really change what's happened, and I wouldn't regret it.

Because I know most of my friends who have babies now, even a couple

of them have two, so. Do most people feel like you, or do most

people think this is a walk in the park? People handle it in different

ways. From some of the people that I know, they have adapt today being

a mum very well. But then there are others that don't. When I first had

Gracie, hi post-natal depression, so I was on -- I had post-natal

depression. So I was on tablets or that. We managed to get through it

together. Whitney's post-natal depression is just the start of it.

Teenage mums are three-times more likely to suffer from it. The

Department for Education says that having children at this age can

damage health, well being, education and career.

The last Government brought in a strategy to reduce the number of

teenage pregnancies, across the country they didn't reach their

ambition of halfing the rate, but they did reduce it by a quarter. No

fall feat. Across the UK -- no Whitney as mum, Sue, works in a

bakery, before she gets to work, she has the school run to do,

getting her two youngest children out of the house, now she's back.

wanted her to go to college, get a cee, do things opposite to the way

I did. I had had a baby at 18, I was married, but I didn't have a

career. I pulled out of the Youth Training Scheme I was on. She was

good at sports and the course she was on she did well. Being pregnant

sports was one of the things you couldn't even do for a few months.

Whitney Potter couldn't be called an irresponsible teenager, she's a

smart and refreshingly frank young woman, she and Chris cross the

difficult and complex range of people having them. It is not just

the unplanned pregnancies, if abortion rates indicate unplanned

pregnancy, older women over 30 are having them. The issues for young

parents are more acute. Over the last ten years and in the

time since someone like Whitney was only eight years old, the teenage

pregnancy rate in this country has gone down, it is just it is still

the highest in western Europe. Three female MPs have decided they

want to do something about it now. But for the people of this town,

the reasons behind it are hotly contested. You could call it the

new battle of Hastings. If Hastings was a hot spot of

unplanned pregnancies s the battle is over why. The Respond Academy is

an alternative training establishment. A youth club come

safe haven cum hot house for training for young people. The

views of those who run it opened the eyes of Amber Rudd, one of the

three MPs conducting the inquiry inside parliament. The information

they gave to the MP informed her ininquiry, they were compelling and

sometimes controversial. Whitney Potter is more the stable end of

the spectrum for unplanned pregnancy, the reasons others get

pregnant are more troubling. The inquiry finds young men have to be

encouraged to be responsible. When you listen to these two, you can

see why. What is wrong with Britain, we have the highest incidence

across Europe, we have brought it down, but we are still high, what

do you think needs to be done, there is a lot of contraception,

sex he had cautious they have done a lot, they have put money into it,

what else can you do? They can't really do anything else. They have

put the morning-after-pill there, they have put pills there, the

injection there, they have brought out condoms, they have brought out

abortions. It is solely down to people and their instincts and

their responsibilities. This is JC, she runs the place, for her the

fresh enemy is a cyberenemy, Facebook, the platform of cyber

enemy, Facebook, the platform for cyberenemy, it brings together near

pornographic adverts and social, she says it threaten as stable

relationship. In the report the MPs agree, they suggest nothing short

of a Government inquiry into the issue.

It is warped, completely, a sense of what's right and wrong. You were

just showing me on Facebook some of the pictures, really graphic

pictures of what people get up to? You didn't see the half of it.

saw enough. JC's husband is the other half of

the Respond Academy. I can only talk about what we see here. And

what I see here are young people who are desperate for affection. I

had a young man, he's 21 and he said to me, he has been in and out

of prison. He said to me last week. A babey would sort me out, right

now, I need to have a baby, that would sort me out. That would help

me, I was like, that's not really it. He said I know what you mean,

Idowu see what I'm saying. I said I understand what you are saying --

said do you see what I'm saying, I said I understand what you're

saying, but in his mind it's already set.

It seems like there is an issue about consent, there is an issue

about we don't really talk about saying yes or no, being important.

You don't think so? Girls nowadays don't really agree, and they don't

disagree. It just kind of happens. Yeah, there is a very casual

attitude about it. Oh let's have sex, OK. Let's have sex, let's not.

Consent doesn't really exist? can get the morning-after-pill,

it's fine, babe, let's have sex. The morning-after-pill is a safety

bank for a lot of people. Let's have sex, it might be risky, there

is always the morning-after-pill. These girls show a widely held

perception, the skipping up the housing list motivates some people

to get pregnant.. There are some people who would go that far. They

would be like, I don't like living with my parents, I have to move out,

how can I get a flat with no money, I know! The figures are low, the

Borough Council tells us that 15 out of 793 presentations for

housing was for teenage mums, and in 2012 it is 6 out of a 1,000

presentations. What is Whitney's experience. If you have parents to

support you through having a baby, and there is the space needed for

you to be able to live there, they don't see it as important. You know.

Should they? Yes. I would like to be able to get my own place, it

would just be good, because that space is very needed for us.

Especially when she starts walking, she is going to need that space to

walk around in. Because babies are quite clumsy at first with walking.

The MP comes to tell them what she has in mind, it is more

relationship advice. Research shows that young people who have talked a

lot about what a good relationship looks like, choose to have sex

later in life. To be effective it must start young.

The right choices for themselves, which are about self-respect and

ambition, and to make sure there is sufficient access to contra zepgs

so they can make those choices -- contraception, so they can make the

choices that is best for them. Rising abortions in some age groups,

high teenage pregnancy rates too, there will continue to be a cost to

this country f it can't put away childish things. We are going to

hear now from Sorayah July who had her daughter when she was 17, Simon

Blake, chief executive of the Sexual Health Service provider

Brook. From the Conservative MP you saw in the film there, Amber Rudd,

who has conducted the inquiry into unplanned pregnancy from Antonia

Tully from the Safe at School against Sexually Explicit Education

in Schools, and David Payton from a Business School. Why did you get

pregnant? It was a case of at the time you don't think. As one of the

girls in the vt said, you do always think of the morning-after-pill, I

did go to take it and then I realised I was unable to because I

have Crohn's disease, it was a medical reason not to take it.

After that you sort of think it is not going to happen this time. It

did. Do you regret it? No, I would honestly say I don't regret it. I

carried on with my education, I'm at university, I'm working, my

daughter sin tell gent, happy, well looked after -- is intelligent,

happy, well looked after. In my situation and a lot of situations

out there it hasn't been a problem for me. I don't think it has caused

much of a strain on anybody else, my mum was happy to have us living

there. We had to move out for a while while certain things happen

but we are back there now, and everything is working out well for

us. When you hear a story like that, who is to tell her she shouldn't

have her child? I wouldn't tell her, that I work for the society for the

protection of unborn children. We are delighted when teenage mothers

do keep their babies. But, I think what I want to say here, is that

the missing ingredient in all of this discussion about how teenagers

get pregnant, how much sex education they should have, how

much contraceptives should be available, where are parents in all

of this? Parents are the primary educators of their children, they

are completely air-brushed out of sex education. All right, let's

continue a little further to explore why girls get pregnant,

relatively young, what is your experience? Well, at Brook we see

young people who come in, who have got pregnant, often because they

didn't know about contraception, or weren't able to access it easily,

or as was also said on the video, that didn't think it would happen,

we did a big survey last year, where young people said they

thought people couldn't get pregnant standing up, or the first

time, they didn't know where our service was, I agree, parents are

the first educator. But we have to make sure that schools teach about

relationships as well. We will come to that point in a second. What is

you are peerence of why girls get pregnant, *Professor? There is a

lot of empirical and statistical evidence out there, from the

surveys, the majority of teenagers who have abortions, for example,

were using some form of contraception, when they got

pregnant, so the problem, in many cases, not all, is not necessarily

access to contraception, I think it is quite an important point. We

need to recognise that some of the policies that perhaps are being

promoted may have sort of unintends consequences. They didn't know how

to put on a condom? We no know for young -- We know for young people

that condoms and the pill have high rates of failures. The young women

talking about the morning-after- pill, there was a report you may

have seen last week, that access to the morning-after-pill doesn't lead

to reductions in abortions or teenage pregnancies, but does seem

to lead to an increase in risky behaviour and is associated with

STIs. Sexually transmitted infections, were you surprised when

you learned that? What we were surprised by is to find that so

many of the young people were saying us, we understand about sex

and contraception, we have a lot of information about that, we can get

access to contraception, what we need help with, this is what they

were saying to us, what we need help with are relationship advice.

By that we mean about forming relationship, affection, commitment.

As JC was saying in that, there is too much now, as those young girls

were saying when sex is not considered as part of a commitment

in a relationship. They are asking for our help. What is a

relationship? Of course there are many ways of defining it. What we

are talking about is try to help them form relationships which are

about commitment, friendship, Atwood some point may become sexual.

We are not -- and at some point may become sexual. We are not making

judgment about that, but the relationship and friendship must

come first. They are not getting that. One of the reasons I think

that children aren't getting that, is because from a very early age

the sex education programmes that are in schools at the moment are

focusing on body parts, sexual intercourse, masturbation, I speak

to hundreds, and probably this year I have spoken to thousands of

parents about this, who all feel, where was I in all of this? These

children are being given highly explicit, highly provocative sex

education, in the classroom, and what I'm saying is they shouldn't

be having it there, it should be parents who know their children

best and love their children best giving it to them. Of course

parents, but in school, what we know is that most sensible adults

believe that children do need to learn about body parts. We know all

the issues about abuse, it helps to protect them. But also young people

do need to know about relationships, they need to understand that you

have to make an active choice. One of the things that I think is

really important. It is not working is it? The whole issue, what young

people say is they don't get enough about relationships, emotions,

real-life dilemmas, "too little, too late, too biological" is the

phrase we heard. We know from around the world, good access to

services and sex education, good access to parents and a focus about

young people knowing to take responsibility about sex. Would

your behaviour been different if you had some how been taught about

relationships? I think it would have been. I was in a relationship,

and I still have that relationship. For the sex education times, we are

constantly being pumped with sexual images and music. We need to look

Aztecs education in a different way. At school we weren't -- at sex

education in a different way. At school we weren't given about the

same way, the only thing I remember is my history telling me about

contraception for one lesson. Putting a condom on a cucumber.

That is exactly what it was. Putting it on a plastic thing. But

I really do think if we were taught more about emotions. As a teenager,

you are not going to mix biological and mechanics with emotion. When

you are going to have sex, you are not thinking about what your

history teacher told you. I imagine not! We have to deal with

the world in which we find ourselves. This is a world in which

the young people are being bombarded with sex. We have issues

about internet porn, we have issues about texting, sexting. It is going

all around them, they are being flooded with advice about having

sex, but they have no concept, a lot of them, about relationships.

It would be fantastic, if they were all learning from their families, a

lot of them are. There are a lot who aren't. These are the children,

some of the young women, the brilliant young women you saw from

Hastings, who have been failed by the system at the moment. They are

asking for help. I think one of the problems in the way that

relationships education is presented to young people, is that

it is presented in terms of adults relationships, teenagers are not

adult, they don't think like adults, act like adults. They are bearing

children like adults? But they don't think like adult, they are

not making "decisions", they don't know what is happening yesterday or

tomorrow. We need to train people properly to give them that advice,

to form relationships, before they have sexual intercourse, that is

what we want them to do. In that case you need to radically what is

happening -- radically change what is happening in schools.

Professor is politely mute in the corner, let's bring you in?

shouldn't be too optimistic about the impact of sex and relationships

education in schools on things like unwanted pregnancy it doesn't mean

we shouldn't do it, certainly there is a role for schools, we might

disagree about what form and the age it might happen. But most of

the research evidence is rather disappointing in suggesting it has

very little affect in terms of reducing teenage pregnancy.

education as such doesn't reduce teenage pregnancy? There is very

little evidence it does, or earlier or later sex education. One of the

interesting countries to look at is the Netherland, we know they have

lower rates of teenage pregnancy than we do. Interestingly sex

education in the Netherlands, starts usually a bit later than in

the UK. Interestingly it is not statutory. So they don't have a

curriculum, which I think is one of the things that the report wants to

bring in the UK. How do you deal with that? The issue about this it

is the combination of sexual relationships education services

and culture. In Holland they have very high expectations for young

people about sexual relationships. What are high expectations about

sexual relationships? Here young people will often say they had sex

to find out what it was, because they thought everybody else was, or

because they were drunk. In Holland if you talk to young people, it was

because they thought they were in love, six months later they might

find out they were not, but it is a good context. That is the

environment you want? That is exactly what we want. There they

talk about it. It is very well known that parent and families talk

about sex much more than we do in this country. Given we are not

going to change the culture of people doing it in their families

talking about it, we have to try to introduce it in schools, in order,

in a way. We might be on the same page, to put off sex so that people

can have the language of relationships before they get into

sex, because a lot of them don't have that language, even. You are

going further than, that you are not just talking about introducing

it in schools, you are talking about it being compulsory in

schools? I'm saying schools should have a policy on relationships.

you think that Government would make that compulsory? I would like

to see them do it, that is what we are recommending, plenty of sex

educations, plenty of -- and no relationship cases. Citizenship

classes are compulsory, why not put it in that. You want to ban -- you

won't even ban pornography on the internet? Let's move on that at

another time, at this point we need to protect the young women, the

best way to do that is to introduce relationship education. Has George

Osborne or any friends in Government have said they will do

that? Not yet, but I'm only just starting. Can we remember it is

also about involving young men in sexual education. Listening to the

two young men talking in the film there, what are you saying?

first job was sex education with young men in the South Wales

valleys, those attitudes would have been what they would have said on

film, once you talk to them and find a way of talking and engaging

with them about relationships, young men like young women want to

be good at relationships n the context of those relationships they

want to have sex, but we have real issues around violence around

masculinity, we have some real issues around young people

understanding what consent is, we have to work with those in a real

honest and constructive way. That disturbing remark one of the girls

made about consent being non- existent nowadays, it was assumed

that boys some how had the right? This is extraordinary? I do just

want to say at Brook we see young people doing a fantastic job of

managing their relationships, but there are some scenarios and some

cases where we see young women who say they don't know whether they

consented to sex or whether they didn't. That is really worrying.

because they were off their heads? Sometimes because they were drunk,

sometimes because they didn't know what it was. This is exactly why

this is so important. We can't allow another generation. Boys need

to learn about relationships just as much as the girls. I agree.

was interesting to see the report tackling the issue of consent.

There is a problem at the moment that there is some ambiguity the

way we teach the issue of under-age serbs it is affecting the BBC as

well -- sex, it is affecting the BBC as well as other people. One of

the problems with sex education, they tell young people delay having

sex until you feel you are ready. The problem with that, of ko, you

may be 13 or 14 -- of course, is you may be 13 or 14 and believe you

are ready. There is lots of scientific evidence that delaying

sexual activity until you are older has all sorts of benefits. Can I

talk about consensual sex between two 15-year-olds and child abuse,

they are two different things. The law is designed to protect people,

most under 16s don't have sex. question of consent, is it

something that you were aware of at the time you were first getting

involved in sexual activity? think one of the few things I do

remember from my sex education school was always pumped, as David

said, when you are ready, that's when you can start having sex. I

can remember that being one of the main things, but it is, not for me

personally, I can understand why other people, it is not very clear.

When you might feel ready, young people are very influenced by other

people, someone's telling them they are ready, they may feel ready. I

think it needs to be a lot clearer whether you are ready or not.

Because a 15, 14, younger person is not going to know that for

themselves, straight away. I think it needs to be a lot clearer.

you very much indeed. Tomorrow morning's front pages, all sorts of