10/01/2013 Newsnight


10/01/2013

With Kirsty Wark. Are pensioners getting an easy ride on cuts? A Bollywood star talks about rape in India. And the definitive take on Nick Clegg's new radio phone-in.


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Transcript


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Thinking the unthinkable. Why should pensioners carry on being

:00:13.:00:17.

exempt from welfare cuts. Two distinguished senior citizens give

:00:17.:00:21.

us their views. We are all in this together, we have to confront the

:00:21.:00:24.

crisis together, and that means elderly people have to be ready to

:00:24.:00:28.

give up benefits they don't need. Elderly people have already paid

:00:28.:00:31.

their share during their working lives, they paid taxes and national

:00:31.:00:35.

insurance, and are entitled to the benefits of that.

:00:35.:00:40.

We will debate, does grey power have a politicians running scared

:00:40.:00:43.

from attacking the state pension and Winter Fuel Allowance. Also

:00:43.:00:47.

tonight, as the men accused of the rape and murder of an Indian

:00:47.:00:52.

student appear in court, we will reveal just how appallingly women

:00:52.:00:56.

in India are treated, kidnapped and sold into sexual enslavement, some

:00:57.:01:06.
:01:07.:01:09.

of them. We have an exclusive interview with

:01:09.:01:15.

a bowl wood veteran and activist. Without a doubt, India is a

:01:15.:01:19.

patriarchal society, and we have internalised a patriarchal mind set

:01:19.:01:23.

in which the girl child is not given the value she deserve. Also

:01:23.:01:28.

on the programme tonight? I'm a Lib Dem who has just torn up his

:01:28.:01:33.

membership card. I joined the party first in 1973, I'm afraid, I cannot

:01:33.:01:38.

now say that I want to represent the Lib Dems. On the day the Deputy

:01:38.:01:42.

Prime Minister begins his very own weekly date with the people, Steve

:01:42.:01:52.
:01:52.:01:55.

Smith has the definitive take on the political radio phone-in.

:01:55.:01:57.

Good evening, David Cameron believes that pensioners should be

:01:58.:02:01.

a protected species, and the figures speak for themselves. Half

:02:01.:02:05.

of all benefits spending goes on pensioners. Overwhelmingly on the

:02:05.:02:09.

weekly pension, but also free bus travel, Winter Fuel Allowance, and

:02:09.:02:14.

free TV license. And now that the decision has been made not to make

:02:14.:02:18.

major changes to the way the Retail Price Index is calculated, it is

:02:18.:02:22.

another boost for older people. Ken Clarke may have hinted that the

:02:22.:02:26.

next Tory manifesto might not make such happy reading for pensioners,

:02:26.:02:30.

but right now, when everybody else, including children, have to make do

:02:30.:02:35.

with less to reduce the deficit. Is it morally right to hold pensioner

:02:35.:02:39.

benefit as sacrosanct. First tonight, we have two pensioners'

:02:39.:02:45.

views, Dot Gibson and the author Stanley Johnson. We have to start

:02:45.:02:49.

with the idea of the road sign, two old people crossing the road with a

:02:49.:02:53.

stick. It is not that any longer. I think the state pension begins at a

:02:53.:02:57.

much too early an age, I think the idea that you necessarily qualify

:02:57.:03:02.

for a state pension at the age of 60 or 65, that just doesn't make

:03:02.:03:06.

sense now, given the demographic situation we are in, we will all

:03:06.:03:11.

live until we are 80, 90, 100, you can't, as a country, afford to pay

:03:11.:03:16.

pensions for decades. I think after 40 years or more of work, people

:03:16.:03:22.

are entitled to a decent length of time in retirement. I don't agree

:03:22.:03:25.

with putting up the age of retirement, which both Governments

:03:25.:03:29.

have now done. We are in an economic and financial crunch and

:03:29.:03:33.

we all have to contribute to getting out of this. Older people

:03:33.:03:37.

are suffering very much under the cuts. We know there will be more

:03:37.:03:41.

they are not wealthy, and do find things extremely difficult to

:03:41.:03:45.

manage. The younger generation, who have, indeed, been hit by house

:03:45.:03:48.

prices on the one hand, and the cost of education on the other.

:03:48.:03:51.

They have been hit by the fact that they are also funding, as I

:03:51.:03:55.

mentioned a moment ago, state pensions for the elderly, on an

:03:55.:03:58.

increasing scale, and probably medical care for the elderly. If

:03:58.:04:02.

you go down the route saying the state will also pay for social care,

:04:02.:04:08.

then the burdens which will be bourne, by, as it were, the working

:04:08.:04:11.

population, will be become, absolutely unsupportable. It is the

:04:11.:04:14.

principle of paying tax and insurance, and then being entitled

:04:14.:04:18.

to the benefits arising from that. Everybody pays their tax and

:04:18.:04:22.

insurance, they should get universal benefits. The problem

:04:22.:04:25.

about universal benefits is that they are universal. And by

:04:25.:04:29.

definition, they give to some sectors of society, benefits which

:04:29.:04:33.

they don't actually need. Winter Fuel Allowance, social care, old

:04:33.:04:38.

people's bus pass, our country as a whole, can't afford these benefits

:04:38.:04:42.

for people who can well afford to do without them. We have to

:04:42.:04:47.

understand that the state pension is among the lowest in Europe. We

:04:47.:04:52.

have already seen cuts in housing benefits, cuts in day centres,

:04:52.:04:56.

meals on wheels and things like this, which are really affecting

:04:56.:05:00.

many millions of pensioners who feel lonely and isolated. I would

:05:01.:05:06.

say we are the luckiest generation, we are what is called the "baby-

:05:06.:05:10.

boomers", we left school and university at a time when jobs were

:05:10.:05:14.

easy to get, we earned large salaries. Look at the younger

:05:14.:05:19.

generation, the cost of education is tough, and the work market is

:05:19.:05:23.

tough. They have a huge amount of bills to pay for the generation

:05:23.:05:27.

that have preceded them. We shouldn't push our luck too far.

:05:27.:05:31.

The generation I belonged to, I was ten at the end of the Second World

:05:32.:05:36.

War, has benefited greatly from the welfare state. But I think that

:05:36.:05:39.

this generation, the younger generations today have to

:05:39.:05:46.

understand that welfare state didn't come into being out of thin

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air, it was fought for, and they have to stand up and defend it,

:05:49.:05:53.

alongside us. Elderly people have to realise that a large part of the

:05:53.:05:57.

nation's wealth is now spent on dealing with the problems of the

:05:57.:06:02.

elderly. We have to say to ourselves, can, as a nation, we

:06:02.:06:07.

afford, can we afford that? Well, there you have two personal views.

:06:07.:06:14.

But we love our hard data here on Newsnight, we crunched the number.

:06:14.:06:19.

Welfare is by far the biggest element in Government spending. By

:06:19.:06:24.

2016, it will account for nearly one pound in every three spent by

:06:24.:06:28.

the state. The Government has already set out cuts in welfare,

:06:28.:06:36.

amounting to �18 billion by 2014-15, and, this week, they successfully

:06:36.:06:40.

introduced a bill that would limit the rise in certain benefits to 1%

:06:40.:06:46.

a year for the next three years. That's a cut in real terms. However,

:06:46.:06:51.

none of these changes have had any great impact on pensioners, despite

:06:51.:06:56.

the fact that Treasury figures show, that over half of all welfare

:06:56.:07:02.

spending goes on them. Mostly the state pension itself, but also

:07:02.:07:07.

benefits like the Winter Fuel Allowance, which costs �2.1 billion

:07:07.:07:11.

each year. And goes even to millionaires. On top of this, there

:07:11.:07:19.

are other benefits, like free TV licenses for the over 75s: �588

:07:19.:07:23.

million a year. And concessionary bus travel, which could be costing

:07:23.:07:30.

up to �1 billion a year. David Cameron made a specific pledge in

:07:30.:07:34.

the 2010 election campaign, to protect these benefits. He's

:07:34.:07:39.

insisted that this is a promise he does not intend to break in this

:07:39.:07:44.

parliament. Pensioners have also benefited from the called triple

:07:45.:07:50.

lock, introduced by the coalition, through which the state pension

:07:50.:07:57.

would rise by whichever is higher, out of RPI, prices, or 2.5%. Last

:07:57.:08:02.

year, as inflation peaked, the increase was set at 5.2%, giving

:08:02.:08:09.

pensioners the biggest-ever cash increase in their pension. So, is

:08:09.:08:14.

it all sunny in the retirement garden? Far from it, the coalition

:08:15.:08:18.

change the inflation -- changed the inflation measure, used to up-rate

:08:18.:08:24.

occupational pensions from RPI to CPI, which is, generally lower.

:08:24.:08:27.

They also introduced the change to the age-related income tax

:08:28.:08:33.

allowance, which was quickly dubbed the Granny Tax. This, according to

:08:33.:08:36.

the Institute for Fiscal Studies, will particularly affect people

:08:36.:08:43.

retiring next year, they will be worse off by nearly �270 a year.

:08:43.:08:47.

People who buy anuts with their pensions have also been --

:08:47.:08:51.

aknewties with their pensions have also been affected by Government

:08:51.:08:55.

policy, as bank rates have been so low, the yield from these is low as

:08:56.:09:01.

well. In any case, any talk of immunity from cuts, is likely to

:09:01.:09:04.

prompt a hollow laugh from the two million pensioners judged to be

:09:04.:09:12.

living in poverty, and the million said to be living in fuel poverty.

:09:12.:09:17.

They have to spend more than 10% of their income on heating. This

:09:17.:09:21.

consideration, combined with the naked political fact, that older

:09:21.:09:26.

people vote more, will give any politician pause for thought before

:09:26.:09:32.

making significant cuts to pensioners' benefits. Stanley

:09:32.:09:35.

Johnson and Dot Gibson are both here, as is Ann Pettifor, director

:09:35.:09:39.

of Prime Economics, and Ruth Porter from the Institute of Economic

:09:39.:09:42.

Affairs. We will begin with the Winter Fuel Allowance. Tomorrow

:09:42.:09:45.

morning's front page in the Mail, says it is enough to make you

:09:45.:09:49.

shudder, and the temperatures are set to plunge to minus ten, and the

:09:49.:09:58.

average heating bill for the elderly soaring to �1,350. It is

:09:58.:10:03.

only �2 billion plus of the spend on the Winter Fuel Allowance, but

:10:03.:10:09.

the very universality is as divisive as it is cohesive.

:10:09.:10:13.

spent �2 billion bailing out the City of London and that wasn't

:10:13.:10:16.

devisive. We spend 2% of the social security budget on some of the

:10:16.:10:20.

perks that the pensioners get. Of course, as a society and democracy,

:10:20.:10:24.

we might want to shift where we put the burden, and where we reward

:10:24.:10:29.

pensioners and whether we do or not by margins, but, honestly, it is so

:10:29.:10:32.

minuscule, in terms of our economy. What we are doing is we are looking

:10:32.:10:36.

at one side of the balance sheet, the spending side. We are doing

:10:36.:10:41.

nothing about generating income. To pay for that. We are shrinking the

:10:41.:10:46.

income side of the economy. You know, so I find this really

:10:46.:10:51.

infantile, the economics. Infantile economics, but it is getting the

:10:51.:10:57.

Winter Fuel Allowance at 60, it is totemic? We might want to have an

:10:57.:11:02.

argument about this, it is such small beer, and to break a

:11:02.:11:07.

political principle of universality, which is a moral, and philosophical,

:11:07.:11:11.

do we want to live in a society where the rich get richer. We have

:11:11.:11:13.

just done it with child benefit, therefore, the argument would be,

:11:13.:11:18.

if we are all in this together, then, you cut child benefit, you

:11:18.:11:22.

actually cut the allowances for childcare from 80% to 70%, they are

:11:22.:11:26.

taking the hit at that end of the scale. You know, presumably there

:11:26.:11:30.

is an argument which says that everybody has to take a hit? You

:11:30.:11:34.

talk about people, you worked for 40 years, and you want to enjoy

:11:34.:11:38.

your retirement, but let's say and hope that you live to the ripe old

:11:38.:11:42.

age of 95. Yes. Are you really saying there will be enough in the

:11:42.:11:45.

pot to pay you Winter Fuel Allowance, free bus travel, and

:11:45.:11:48.

increased state pension, all the way there? You know they fix the

:11:49.:11:54.

pot, and then they tell us that we have to be bound by the things that

:11:54.:12:01.

they say. In actual fact, the rich are paying less tax, the poor are

:12:01.:12:06.

paying more, people are on short- term contracts, very low pay, and

:12:06.:12:11.

are living on benefits, and it isn't a question of pensioners

:12:11.:12:14.

against younger people who are at work, or who are unemployed, it is

:12:14.:12:19.

a question of rich and poor. The pensioners come within that

:12:19.:12:21.

category. There is this myth that the amount of money which has been

:12:21.:12:25.

paid into the system is enough to care for us in our old age, it is

:12:25.:12:28.

simply not. We have now got a situation where a large part of the

:12:28.:12:33.

bill for old age is being passed on to future generations. Part that

:12:33.:12:37.

have is through the national debt we have accrued, that future

:12:37.:12:41.

generations will have to pay back, part of it is younger generation,

:12:41.:12:44.

the working generation, are, at the moment, facing massive cuts to

:12:44.:12:48.

their benefits. Also a large part of it is through tax rises on those

:12:48.:12:55.

who are working. The calculation was when the pension was set at 65,

:12:55.:13:00.

that people would live to the age of 66, now, thankfully, people are

:13:00.:13:03.

living longer, and what was put in during their lifetime, is not

:13:03.:13:08.

enough for their healthcare and everything else. That is right, we

:13:08.:13:11.

have not grasped the demographic situation. One third of the babies

:13:12.:13:16.

born today are going to live to 100. That is what they say, is that

:13:16.:13:20.

really true? Unless global warming intervene, it may do. Is that

:13:20.:13:25.

really true? My generation had a good diet, we were given cod liver

:13:25.:13:28.

oil, orange juice and the rest of it, we didn't overeat on all these

:13:28.:13:32.

fast foods, but there is a generation now that has got this

:13:32.:13:35.

problem, together with the fact. People are living longer, and all

:13:35.:13:39.

the Government is doing, they are increasing. We are living longer.

:13:39.:13:46.

They are increasing the retirement age by 67 by 2028, it should be 678

:13:46.:13:49.

in the next ten years. You are living longer because of the

:13:49.:13:53.

benefits that have accrued because of better medicine, and so forth?

:13:53.:13:58.

The welfare state. They cost money? The we is do we want to live in a

:13:58.:14:01.

civilised society, a society in which we say, first of all, we make

:14:01.:14:07.

our young people unemployed, we strip our mothers of child benefit,

:14:07.:14:12.

we impoverish our children, and impoverish our elderly and allow

:14:12.:14:18.

the City of London to get richer. That is not civilised. Taking away

:14:18.:14:21.

the City of London for a moment, there was a huge issue, and it

:14:21.:14:25.

still goes on, that in a way there was a moral duty, there was a

:14:25.:14:29.

social compact here. Post-war, the war generation, that lived through

:14:30.:14:32.

terrible depravation, and so forth, and there was goodwill towards them.

:14:32.:14:35.

Now we are going to people who are pensioners, who actually, probably,

:14:35.:14:40.

lived high on the hog, and who are now in their late 50s and early 60,

:14:40.:14:45.

and are actually going to have to pay back. We worked very hard.

:14:45.:14:50.

Younger people work very hard? you think a man. A large number of

:14:50.:14:56.

people are unemployed thanks to the Government's policies. Could a chap

:14:56.:15:02.

intervene in this argument, I'm slightly outnumbered here. They are

:15:02.:15:05.

not abolishing the Winter Fuel Allowance, it is not abolishing the

:15:05.:15:09.

gas. The issue is, should the people who are very well off

:15:09.:15:13.

benefit from those? Would you suggest that the evidence, the

:15:13.:15:15.

evidence would suggest from what happened with child benefit reform,

:15:15.:15:20.

actually means testing, the bureaucracy of that could be

:15:20.:15:23.

incredibly counter-productive. that case, where do you cut it off.

:15:23.:15:29.

There are only 250,000 pensioners out of 11 million who are actually

:15:29.:15:34.

paying the higher rate of tax. It won't mean anything. It is peanuts.

:15:34.:15:37.

What about the intergenerational point, do we have a duty? It is

:15:37.:15:43.

interesting, if you go back and look at what Beverge intended with

:15:43.:15:46.

the welfare state, it was something that was very minimal, something

:15:46.:15:50.

there to ensure the most vulnerable people in our society were

:15:50.:15:53.

protected. Everyone agrees that is still what we want. Everyone wants

:15:53.:15:56.

vulnerable elderly people to afford to heat their homes, that is not in

:15:56.:15:59.

question. But the point is, if we want to live in a civilised society,

:15:59.:16:03.

where we get along with each other, where we don't resent each other,

:16:03.:16:08.

we need to live in a society where we're not overly taxed, where we

:16:08.:16:14.

are not putting bebt on to the next generation. -- Debt on to the next

:16:14.:16:17.

generation. What would you do to the state pension, would you like

:16:17.:16:21.

to see it raised so everyone is on �10,000, what would you like to

:16:21.:16:25.

see? The most important thing is we put up the retirement age, that is

:16:25.:16:28.

part of why we have ended up in a lot of the problems that we have

:16:28.:16:31.

ended up with. The Government should be looking at putting it up

:16:31.:16:36.

probably to 68, within the next ten years, as a start. I think also we

:16:36.:16:41.

need to move to a system where we say we care for ourselves in our

:16:41.:16:44.

old age through saving, and at the moment, it is very difficult for

:16:44.:16:47.

people to save, because taxes are so high, because they are paying

:16:47.:16:51.

for things like Winter Fuel Allowances. Interest rates are so

:16:51.:16:58.

low. There are 60% of people at work are getting benefits, it is

:16:58.:17:01.

not that the unemployed are getting most of the benefits, it is people

:17:01.:17:05.

at work that are getting the benefits, the wages are so low.

:17:05.:17:09.

What do you say to Ruth Porter's idea that actually, it is not about

:17:09.:17:12.

means testing, it is not necessarily even about things like,

:17:12.:17:17.

you know, fuel poverty and the Winter Fuel Allowance, it is about

:17:17.:17:21.

a fundamental change to raise the retirement age successively and

:17:21.:17:25.

quickly towards 70, because actually n your middle to late 60s

:17:25.:17:31.

you are not old? If Ruth is happy to go on working until she's 70,

:17:31.:17:36.

that's fine. It should be 80, come on. And you know, if Ruth that's

:17:36.:17:40.

fine. But people get very tired, I know that people that have worked

:17:40.:17:45.

very hard that are very grateful for their pensions. I wonder if you

:17:45.:17:49.

would like to work on a building site when you are 80, you might be

:17:49.:17:54.

able to write, but you won't be able to work on building sites.

:17:54.:17:59.

have done a lot of jobs in my life. Would you expect somebody in their

:17:59.:18:03.

mid-70s still to be working on huge big projects on the City as steel

:18:03.:18:08.

workers? Somebody in their mid-70s today might hope to retire at 75 or

:18:08.:18:13.

whatever. I'm saying the way the demographics are going, we will be

:18:13.:18:17.

living much longer than 70, into the 80s and 90s t makes sense to

:18:17.:18:21.

raise the retirement age. It is about harmony between what Ruth

:18:21.:18:26.

seems to be suggesting, and the more likelihood of

:18:26.:18:28.

intergenerational conflict and resentment, if something's not done

:18:28.:18:33.

about this, do you believe that? don't believe particularly in the

:18:33.:18:37.

intergenerational conflict, we will go in that direction if we do

:18:37.:18:39.

ridiculous things. I take the question of social care. There is a

:18:39.:18:44.

whole lot of ideas going around now, that some how society must pay for

:18:44.:18:49.

the old age of people, not just the health of people, but the general

:18:49.:18:53.

caring for people in old age. Can you imagine how we could possibly

:18:53.:18:57.

afford that. Why should people who benefit from house price rises not

:18:57.:19:03.

have to sell their houses to fund their old age. I can't see that.

:19:03.:19:10.

Dot? The whole point about social care, and healthcare, is that it is

:19:10.:19:15.

possible to have a national care system, like the NHS, paid for

:19:15.:19:20.

through, just 1.5p in the pound on tax. Social care? Let me make this

:19:20.:19:28.

point, what is left out of the picture completely, the Women's

:19:28.:19:33.

Royal Voluntary Service did a survey, which is generally accepted

:19:33.:19:39.

as a correct survey that shows, that the benefit to the state of

:19:39.:19:43.

pensioners volunteering, caring and the work that they do, is actually

:19:43.:19:48.

�40 billion a year. That is a huge A money, Ruth Porter. It is a huge

:19:48.:19:53.

amount of money. Obviously retired people make a huge contribution.

:19:53.:19:56.

Which can't reduce everything down to some monetary value. That's what

:19:56.:20:01.

you are doing. I think actually it is about having decent

:20:01.:20:06.

relationships within families. I think by making it monetary you

:20:06.:20:11.

reduce it, in the same way that you take care of elderly relatives.

:20:11.:20:14.

Delhi, amid heavy police presence, and the on going protests, suspects

:20:14.:20:19.

in the case of a fatal gang rape of a 23-year-old student in a moving

:20:19.:20:23.

bus in New Delhi appeared in court. Thousands have demanded justice for

:20:23.:20:31.

the young woman whose death shocked India, and which prompts anguish

:20:31.:20:35.

soul--- anguished soul-searching in a country where violence against

:20:35.:20:39.

women goes further than this case. The widespread killing of female

:20:39.:20:44.

foetuses is well known. But less well known is trafficking of young

:20:44.:20:49.

women to make up for the shortages. We have a World Service

:20:49.:20:59.
:20:59.:21:00.

Investigation. Calcutta, the capital of West

:21:00.:21:05.

Bengal, choking roads and bustling markets, where young women face a

:21:05.:21:12.

growing threat. This girl was 15, when two years ago neighbourhood

:21:12.:21:17.

boys invited her to a local fair. There someone, a stranger, offered

:21:17.:21:21.

her a soft drink. The next thing she remembers is waking up on a

:21:21.:21:26.

train. A day later, she found herself in a brothel, in Delhi.

:21:26.:21:30.

Where for seven months every day she was raped by countless

:21:30.:21:40.
:21:40.:22:13.

Her mother finally tracked her down, and, with the help of police,

:22:13.:22:18.

rescued her. She got her daughter back, but not the life she has

:22:18.:22:21.

worked so hard to build. Neighbours don't talk to them any more. Their

:22:21.:22:31.
:22:31.:22:54.

house has been stoned, and those Every year tens of thousands of

:22:54.:22:58.

girls across India are either tricked or forced into making a

:22:58.:23:05.

journey that changes their lives forever. Many, like the young woman,

:23:05.:23:10.

come through this Calcutta train station. This place is just

:23:10.:23:14.

overwhelming. It is so easy to become invisible in this crowd. I

:23:14.:23:18.

couldn't tell you whether a man I just passed is father who is

:23:18.:23:22.

travelling with his daughter, or a trafficker who is transporting his

:23:22.:23:28.

victim. What I can tell you, is that right at this moment, at this

:23:28.:23:37.

very station, there are girls who have been sold. Police sources tell

:23:37.:23:42.

us this train alone carries dozens of trafficking victims every day.

:23:42.:23:47.

Some are as young as ten. It took us weeks, but finally we managed to

:23:47.:23:57.
:23:57.:24:06.

He tells me he traffics, an average, 200 girls a year, and makes around

:24:06.:24:16.
:24:16.:24:50.

$1,000 on each. Most of them are 12, The trafficker also said that,

:24:50.:24:54.

while he still pays local politicians and individual

:24:54.:24:58.

policemen for protection, the central Government's recent

:24:58.:25:02.

awareness campaign has made his operation more difficult. And at

:25:02.:25:06.

the police headquarters in Calcutta, they deny charges of any

:25:06.:25:14.

involvement. This is one of the allegations which is brought

:25:14.:25:18.

against us as police. The police is doing very, very well in this field

:25:18.:25:23.

of human traffics. The allegation of corruption against police is

:25:23.:25:28.

very negligible. The fight is daily on. Activists say that at the

:25:28.:25:34.

police level things have improved. But change is slow. Every police

:25:34.:25:40.

station in India is now supposed to have anti-trafficking police

:25:40.:25:44.

officers, and at district levels they have even set up anti-

:25:44.:25:48.

trafficking unit. That looks good on paper, have a look at the

:25:48.:25:52.

reality of India's fight against one of its greatest organised crime

:25:52.:25:57.

networks. This is the centre of anti-trafficking activity for the

:25:57.:26:03.

whole of West Bengal. Two computers, a few phones, and

:26:03.:26:10.

thousands of cases. This detective and her small team are overwhelmed.

:26:10.:26:17.

We are trying to solve this problem, how do I get more man power, some

:26:17.:26:22.

digital support, some other support, Xerox machine, some telephones,

:26:22.:26:27.

laptop, we need those. Traditionally there is dark and

:26:27.:26:30.

secretive trade of humans, which has been driven by prostitution,

:26:31.:26:35.

and more recently, demand for domestic workers among India's

:26:36.:26:41.

growing middle-class. But that is changing.

:26:41.:26:45.

We travelled across the country to northern India, where there is a

:26:45.:26:55.
:26:55.:27:07.

new and growing market for brides. This is a man's world, the men of

:27:07.:27:13.

this town are famous for being strong, fit and single. Fortunate

:27:13.:27:17.

to be born in one of India's wealthiest states, fortunate,

:27:17.:27:25.

perhaps, to be born at all. One estimate suggests that ten million

:27:25.:27:30.

girl foetuses have been aborted in India in the last two decades. The

:27:30.:27:36.

UN says it is a problem of genocide proportions. The Indian Government

:27:36.:27:41.

disputes these estimates. But the reality of life in Haryana is hard

:27:41.:27:46.

to argue with. It is such a social issue that every house is facing

:27:46.:27:52.

this problem. Every house is facing that there are young boys who are

:27:52.:28:02.
:28:02.:28:02.

not getting girls. And when you talk to them, they are frustrated.

:28:02.:28:10.

Rishi Kant took me to see how this frustration fuels organised crime.

:28:10.:28:16.

There is a minor child, she has been traffiked, we will go and see

:28:16.:28:23.

and do the raid. If the girl is there we will do the rescue

:28:23.:28:27.

operation. So we're going to have your group, as well as the police

:28:28.:28:32.

from Bengal, and police from Haryana, working together to rescue

:28:32.:28:42.

this 14-year-old. Exactly. You know where she is? The family knows.

:28:42.:28:47.

Ruksana, the girl, is at home when we enter. But minutes later, the

:28:47.:28:57.
:28:57.:29:14.

Before she lets her go, she takes out the earrings she had given her.

:29:14.:29:22.

As police lead her away, she follows. Rishi Kant orders her out

:29:22.:29:26.

of the police car, the trafficker and the victim have to be separated,

:29:26.:29:36.
:29:36.:29:38.

it's the law, he says. But she is not scared of me, she is screaming.

:29:38.:29:41.

A couple of hours later, at a police station, she is still

:29:41.:29:46.

insisting she has done nothing wrong. We don't have enough girls

:29:46.:29:50.

and many people are buying girls from Bengal, she cries. She swears

:29:50.:29:59.

she had treated her well. But in the car outside, Ruksana tells the

:29:59.:30:04.

police a different story. She talks about daily humiliation, beatings,

:30:04.:30:11.

rape. Her father listens, overwhelmed. Soon he will be able

:30:11.:30:18.

to take his daughter home. This is incredible, the whole village is

:30:19.:30:26.

basically following us to Ruksana home, I'm sure this is more

:30:26.:30:36.
:30:36.:30:36.

attention than she's used to. She is still haunted by memories of

:30:36.:30:46.
:30:46.:31:13.

She was never even allowed outside. She doesn't want to talk about the

:31:14.:31:23.
:31:24.:31:36.

rape. Her parents are worried about She just wants to be at home, she

:31:36.:31:41.

told me. But with so much attention, so much gossip, Rishi tells the

:31:41.:31:46.

parents it is not safe for her to stay. Everything is at stake, her

:31:46.:31:53.

life, her identity, her marriage, and her image in the society.

:31:53.:31:58.

Everything is lost. And if you don't get any support from the

:31:58.:32:06.

state, the administration, that's ten-times more problematic. This is

:32:06.:32:11.

probably where Ruksan will end up, at least for the time being. This

:32:11.:32:15.

private shelter in Calcutta is the best in the state. It is home to

:32:15.:32:19.

150 girls. Here too they tell us they have noticed that the number

:32:19.:32:24.

of girls sold into marriage is on the rise. And the real struggle,

:32:24.:32:27.

activists say, is to get politicians on side. They are not

:32:27.:32:31.

interested, you know, because you know why, do we have to still go

:32:31.:32:35.

and tell them this is happening in our country. When so many girls are

:32:35.:32:38.

dying, when so many girls are being traffiked, and you know, we are not

:32:38.:32:48.
:32:48.:32:58.

talking about hundreds, we are But attitudes here show no sign of

:32:58.:33:04.

changing. In a village in Haryana, we visited a meeting of influential

:33:04.:33:08.

local elders, even before the notorious Delhi rape case, they

:33:08.:33:13.

came to discuss the worrying rise in rapes in Haryana. Here is how

:33:13.:33:23.
:33:23.:33:51.

one of them explained the problem These women don't get much of a

:33:51.:33:55.

choice. This is a community support centre for victims of trafficking,

:33:55.:34:00.

some of them have settled here, some don't leave because they are

:34:00.:34:07.

too ashamed to go back. All are expected to produce sons. 25-year-

:34:07.:34:12.

old Rupa was traffiked from Bihar, she says she was forced to have two

:34:12.:34:22.
:34:22.:34:36.

abortions until she finally gave Fuelled by poverty, corruption, and

:34:36.:34:45.

attitudes towards women, in India, this cycle of abuse carries on.

:34:45.:34:50.

Earlier today in Mumbai, we filmed a veteran Indian act stress, who is

:34:50.:34:55.

also a prominent -- actress, who is also a prominent women's activist

:34:55.:35:00.

and former member of the Upper House in parliament. I began by ask

:35:00.:35:02.

She Lay Down Deep Beneath the Sea believed that India did not love

:35:03.:35:11.

its -- by asking if she believed that India did not love its girl

:35:11.:35:15.

children? It comes from the complication of being a complex

:35:15.:35:19.

society. So it is with the position of women. On the one hand we have

:35:19.:35:22.

had a woman President and Prime Minister, several women are in top

:35:22.:35:25.

positions in politics and business and the arts and all of that, but

:35:25.:35:31.

on the other hand, female foeticide is also being practised. It is,

:35:31.:35:35.

essentially, a country living in contradictions and trying to come

:35:35.:35:41.

to terms with it. Having said that, without any doubt. India is a

:35:41.:35:45.

patriarchal society, and we have internalised a patriarchal mind set

:35:45.:35:51.

in which the girl child is not given the value that she deserves.

:35:51.:35:55.

The victim of December's gang rape was a middle-class student living

:35:55.:35:59.

in the capital city, where the majority of the country live

:35:59.:36:08.

poverty striken and voiceless. I asked her if she believed India's

:36:08.:36:14.

lingering caste system was an issue in the rape? There are problems in

:36:14.:36:19.

the rural areas where certain women where nobody pays the attention to

:36:19.:36:23.

them. This was a case that was given tremendous visibility, and

:36:23.:36:27.

people came to know the horror that is associated with rape. Somewhere

:36:27.:36:35.

the deadening of our senses has really been brought into sharp

:36:35.:36:39.

position. I think it is about time something like this happened, and

:36:39.:36:42.

the outrage of complete demand for justice became central to our

:36:42.:36:47.

system. The week since the rape has seen an extraordinary outpouring of

:36:47.:36:51.

public anger in India, much of it directed at the police. The fact is,

:36:51.:36:56.

that the police have internalised the same patriarchal mind set, and

:36:56.:37:00.

what happens is most often girls do not even go to register cases of

:37:00.:37:05.

rape, or trafficking, for fear that they are really going to be treated

:37:05.:37:09.

to a verbal abuse amounting to a second rape. Because of the

:37:09.:37:15.

insensitivity of the police, and the tendency to some how blame the

:37:15.:37:19.

victim for having invited the rape. And that is a shocking state of

:37:19.:37:22.

affairs, because it is not enough to say they have internalised their

:37:23.:37:27.

mind set, because when they occupy a chair, and they wear a uniform,

:37:27.:37:31.

then there has to be a process of training in which they are

:37:31.:37:36.

disabused from the horrible values they have. She has made her name as

:37:36.:37:40.

a star of more than 100 Bollywood firms over four decades, did she

:37:40.:37:43.

believe the industry was responsible for suggesting that in

:37:43.:37:48.

terms of women and sex, "no" didn't necessarily always mean no. We have

:37:48.:37:53.

to tread careful grounds here. Because to blame Bollywood for

:37:53.:37:59.

everything that is wrong in society would be factitious, and not true.

:37:59.:38:05.

I think there is definitely a churning within sections of the

:38:05.:38:09.

film industry, of the Hindi film industry, where they are indulging

:38:09.:38:13.

in some amount of self-reflection and analysis. But they are his tent

:38:13.:38:17.

to verbalise what they feel, for fear of being appropriated by the

:38:17.:38:22.

moral brigade. We cannot have a situation where this gives an

:38:22.:38:28.

opportunity to the moral brigade to stand waving their flags and saying

:38:28.:38:32.

women are responsible because they are wearing short skirts or they

:38:32.:38:38.

are being emancipated or what have you.

:38:38.:38:42.

I think, for the film industry, we have to understand that the

:38:42.:38:46.

business of cinema is about images. And when you show fragmented images

:38:46.:38:56.
:38:56.:38:57.

of a woman's body, she really loses all autonomy it commodifies herself.

:38:58.:39:02.

However, I do want to insist that celebration of senuality is welcome,

:39:02.:39:07.

and something that is healthy. But there is a thin line between

:39:07.:39:17.
:39:17.:39:20.

celebration of sexuality and a surrender to the male gaze. We have

:39:20.:39:27.

come a long way from films made in the 1960s where, "I will remain

:39:27.:39:32.

silent", was considered a virtue. We have seen more visibly working

:39:32.:39:36.

women in India. There is still a lot left to be desired, it is for

:39:36.:39:40.

us to stand up, and also, for female actors to say they demand

:39:40.:39:47.

more. Could the student's gang rape and

:39:47.:39:51.

murder prove a turning point in the way India's women are treated.

:39:51.:39:55.

Could it prove a watershed for women's rights? I think the outrage

:39:55.:40:01.

has been so universal, and so persistent, that I will be very

:40:01.:40:05.

surprised if there is no change at all. But ultimately what we are

:40:05.:40:09.

dealing with is a mind set change, a societal, mind set change, which,

:40:10.:40:19.
:40:20.:40:20.

as you know, takes a very, very long time. There is a bit of skill

:40:20.:40:24.

in handling a radio chat show, the witty one-liner, a bit of flirting

:40:24.:40:31.

and being kind to granny, Terry Wogan, and Jonathan Ross spring to

:40:31.:40:35.

mind. But Nick Clegg? For coalition spin doctors, for some reason, they

:40:35.:40:39.

have decided he could make it big on the airwaves, he has a lot to

:40:39.:40:45.

live up to. Time to call in Steve Smith?

:40:45.:40:50.

Hello Newsnight? What you mean now, on now?

:40:50.:40:56.

You may have heard about the BBC's state-of-the-art new HQ in central

:40:56.:41:00.

London. This is where we maintain our all-important links with our

:41:00.:41:04.

audience. Would you mind one second?

:41:05.:41:12.

Hello Newsnight? Yes. No. The vital connection, talking in

:41:12.:41:19.

real time, to real people, politicians want it too. Nick Clegg

:41:19.:41:24.

has become the first cabinet minister to launch what is promised

:41:24.:41:29.

to be a regular weekly phone-in, on London's LBC Radio. What support is

:41:29.:41:33.

the Government going to be able to offer families and couples who are

:41:33.:41:39.

being forced to leave their jobs within the army or other forces,

:41:39.:41:43.

jobs within the ministry. Stay on the line, this is to do with the

:41:43.:41:48.

military review, and many jobs have been shed, some on the frontline.

:41:48.:41:52.

As you know better than I do, we have been upfront with you and your

:41:52.:41:56.

husband, and said because defence expenditure was so mishandled in

:41:56.:41:59.

the past, we have to bring things down to a level which we can

:41:59.:42:02.

properly support. There isn't that uncertainty. I honestly don't think

:42:03.:42:07.

it does any harm to the reputation of politics in general for a

:42:07.:42:10.

politician to make himself accessible. It is a big commitment

:42:10.:42:15.

for him. Yes, I think in a newsy week, in a week with a lot of

:42:16.:42:19.

political news, I might listen, and I might even ring up. Let us know

:42:19.:42:29.
:42:29.:42:31.

when you do. This is the Newsnight Awards Line, if you think we

:42:31.:42:35.

deserve...hello...$$NEWLINE # Hey how you doing

:42:35.:42:39.

Politicians and their handlers, believe there is nothing like

:42:39.:42:42.

direct contact with the great British public. Good morning Mr

:42:42.:42:47.

Major. Good morning. I would like to know why I should vote Tory?

:42:47.:42:51.

They are talking straight to voters, and they are being seen, or at

:42:51.:42:55.

least heard, to do so, but it doesn't always end well. Someone

:42:55.:43:01.

has just handed me the tape, let's play it and see if we can hear it.

:43:01.:43:07.

You should never have put me with that woman, whose idea that was? It

:43:07.:43:13.

is just ridiculous. That Gordon Brown bigot-gate moment, all

:43:13.:43:17.

triggered by contact with maybe of the public. It was played back on

:43:17.:43:23.

my show, and he didn't know it was filmed. It was a catastrophic for

:43:23.:43:26.

Brown and it happened in the middle of an election. It takes you back

:43:26.:43:30.

to all the other election moments, how often it is the member of the

:43:30.:43:35.

public who changes the weather. The all-time classic was a woman called

:43:35.:43:40.

Diana Gould. Why, when the Argentinian battleship, was outside

:43:40.:43:44.

the exclusion zone, and actually sailing away from the Falklands,

:43:44.:43:50.

why did you give the orders to sink it? It was not sailing away the

:43:50.:43:55.

Falklands, it was an area which was a danger to our ships. And it

:43:55.:44:01.

stopped the then Prime Minister in her tracks.

:44:01.:44:07.

One second, hang on? Hello. Hello Jeremy, I wondered why we kept this

:44:07.:44:15.

phone. Direct dialogue with the people is a hallmark of strong men

:44:15.:44:22.

among world leaders. Including Chavez of Venezuela. And Russia's

:44:22.:44:32.
:44:32.:44:32.

Vladimir Putin. I'm wondering are you a man of the people, and have

:44:32.:44:37.

you worn a onesie? From your constituency, have you ever worn a

:44:37.:44:42.

onesie? I was actually given a big, green onesie in Sheffield, which I

:44:42.:44:46.

have kept in its packaging, I haven't worn it yet. Actually,

:44:46.:44:50.

Newsnight imagined that look last month. This programme's meaningless

:44:50.:44:54.

if it doesn't set the agenda. What's he got to lose. Everybody

:44:54.:44:59.

hates him, everybody thinks he's like the daft lad. This morning he

:44:59.:45:05.

showed, you know, quite a few sparks of humour. How many stars

:45:05.:45:10.

would you give it? As a show four stars. That is pretty good? Yes, I

:45:10.:45:20.
:45:20.:45:20.

would. Hi Kirsty. It's going well. What's that? Get off?

:45:20.:45:30.
:45:30.:45:54.

Nuisance caller. Figures out today show there are

:45:54.:45:59.

still 13,000 black and white television licenses in the UK, so

:45:59.:46:02.

tonight's farewell is tailored especially for viewers watching

:46:02.:46:12.
:46:12.:46:39.

tonight in glorious monochrome, Colder weather on the way for the

:46:39.:46:43.

UK in the next few days. Friday quite a chilly affair, and a rather

:46:43.:46:47.

grey one for many of us as well. The best of any sunshine likely

:46:47.:46:50.

across Wales in the south west during the early part of the day.

:46:50.:46:56.

Elsewhere it is a mixture of low clouds and outbreaks of rain and

:46:56.:47:00.

stubborn patches of mist and fog. And wintery across the hills of the

:47:00.:47:03.

north-east of England, maybe the bit of sleet mixed in with the

:47:03.:47:06.

showers across East Anglia. For the south west and Wales, after the

:47:06.:47:09.

sunshine first thing, more cloud piling in come the afternoon, that

:47:09.:47:13.

will have a tendency to bring increasingly heavy showers as the

:47:13.:47:15.

afternoon progresses. Perhaps there is brightness to be found across

:47:16.:47:22.

the likes of Devon and Dorset, and up into the Welsh marshes and the

:47:22.:47:24.

afternoon. For Northern Ireland a dreary day, a foggy start making

:47:24.:47:29.

way to a foggy afternoon, with outbreaks of rain. In the far north

:47:29.:47:32.

of Scotland it may brighten during the afternoon. Elsewhere cloud

:47:32.:47:37.

around or misty and murky weather. For the weekend, the prospects turn

:47:37.:47:41.

colder still, the threat of wintery showers across eastern Scotland and

:47:41.:47:44.

the north-east of England. Further south, an area of low pressure

:47:44.:47:48.

pushing in, making for a bit of a forecasting headache for us, it

:47:48.:47:51.

looks like it will bring heavy rain to the southern most counties of

:47:51.:47:55.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark. Are pensioners getting an easy ride on cuts? A Bollywood star talks about rape in India. And the definitive take on Nick Clegg's new radio phone-in.


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