16/01/2013 Newsnight


16/01/2013

Analysis of the kidnappings in Algeria; a report on America's relationship with the gun; Sweden's finance minister on fears of the UK leaving the EU; Gavin Esler eats horsemeat.


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Tonight a major kidnap crisis facing the British, French and

:00:14.:00:18.

Algerian Governments. Islamist militants raid a BP gas plant in

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the Algerian desert, and take an estimated 40 people hostage.

:00:23.:00:27.

safety of those involved and their co-workers is our absolute priority,

:00:27.:00:32.

and we will work around the clock to resolve this crisis. So, is this

:00:32.:00:37.

payback for the French intervention in neighbouring Mali? Also tonight,

:00:37.:00:40.

the land of the free, and the home of the brave, tries one more time

:00:40.:00:45.

to reform gun laws. But with some school teachers already armed, is

:00:45.:00:50.

it too late to change the American love affair with the gun? What's

:00:50.:00:54.

going to happen an armed gun man that breaks into your school?

:00:54.:01:00.

will be shoot, in the best case scenario. Britain in the EU or on

:01:00.:01:03.

the edge, David Cameron again promises to bring back powers from

:01:03.:01:06.

Brussels. On Europe right now, the PM is in a whole world of pain.

:01:06.:01:10.

Nothing he says on the subject will satisfy everybody, there is a real

:01:10.:01:15.

danger he will satisfy nobody. We ask one of our closest European

:01:15.:01:20.

allies, Sweden, what they think of the Cameron strategy. The UK is

:01:20.:01:23.

part of a dynamic and growing Europe. Normally Sweden and the UK

:01:23.:01:28.

tend to have the same views on openness, competitiveness and free

:01:28.:01:33.

trade, for us it is very worrying that the British debate seems to be

:01:33.:01:36.

sliding, where you almost accidentally might be leaving the

:01:36.:01:41.

European Union. Now, if you eat lamb, beef, pork

:01:41.:01:47.

and even a slice of Bambi, why do the British say nay to eating a bit

:01:47.:01:57.
:01:57.:01:58.

of horse. We will be tucking in later to see what we are missing.

:01:58.:02:01.

Good evening, it is every Government's nightmare, a major

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kidnapping in a remote location, involving Islamist extremists and

:02:05.:02:12.

British nationals. The armed raid on a BP gas FA sill ein the all

:02:12.:02:16.

gatherian desert, near Libya, could have many cause, but what is clear

:02:16.:02:23.

is British, Norwegian, Japanese lives are at stake. There one

:02:23.:02:30.

Jihadist leaders said the gates of hell would hope when French

:02:30.:02:34.

soldiers started to move into Mali. Was today's event the kind of thing

:02:34.:02:40.

he had had in mind? The scene of this crisis is a

:02:40.:02:45.

natural gasfield, one of Algeria's largest, deep in The Sahara. A

:02:45.:02:53.

field run jointly by BP, Statoil of Norway and the Algerian state oil

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company. According to Algerian sources the attack began at dawn,

:02:58.:03:03.

when heavily armed Islamists attacked a bus, carrying engineers

:03:03.:03:07.

going to the plant. They took a number of hostages at the plant

:03:07.:03:10.

itself later. Two foreigner, including a British national, are

:03:10.:03:13.

believed to have been killed, and there are reports that the total

:03:14.:03:17.

number being held is 41. They include Norwegians, a man from

:03:17.:03:21.

Northern Ireland, and several Americans. The Algerian army is now

:03:21.:03:25.

concerneding the plant, and negotiations with the hostage-

:03:25.:03:31.

takers are continuing. Tonight, the Foreign Secretary, William Hague,

:03:31.:03:34.

confirmed UK citizens were also being held. This does include a

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number of British nationals, this is, therefore, extremely dangerous.

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We are in close touch with the Algerian Government, the Algerian

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military have deployed to the area. The Prime Minister has spoken to

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the Prime Minister of Algeria. gasfield is in the east of Algeria,

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close to the sibian border, south of there is a poorly policed and

:04:00.:04:04.

vast region. A region where a number of westerners have already

:04:04.:04:08.

been taken hostage by Islamist groups. Now, those groups have

:04:08.:04:15.

gained more weapons, leftover from the war against Colonel Gaddafi in

:04:15.:04:18.

northern Libya. In northern Mali, Islamist groups have taken control

:04:18.:04:21.

of half the country. France intervened last week, when it

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feared those groups were moving south towards the capital, Bamako.

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France began by sending warplanes to bomb rebel positions in Mali. It

:04:31.:04:35.

has followed up with ground troops. One rebel group warned that France

:04:36.:04:40.

had opened the gates of hell by the action. So does today's hostage

:04:41.:04:43.

taking show what they meant? Several claims of responsibility

:04:43.:04:48.

from Islamists have been made in phone calls to a news agency in

:04:48.:04:53.

neighbouring more tainia. According to one -- Moritania, according to

:04:54.:04:59.

one group they are called The Masked Brigade, and was formed to

:04:59.:05:03.

take the interests of those countries intervening in Mali. One

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call said it was a group headed by a veteran Jihadi fighter, Kian

:05:10.:05:20.
:05:20.:05:23.

Mokhtari. He was known as the -- "one-eyed", he was the predecessor

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to the Al-Qaeda Maghreb group. He's the leader. Apparently he has

:05:29.:05:38.

deaffected or maybe spread a little power in Somali. We know the groups

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in Mali, the Salafist groups, have links with the groups in Niger.

:05:45.:05:50.

There is no proof the Al-Qaeda groups are behind the attack today,

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many think it is, and the motivation is clear? It is a direct

:05:55.:06:00.

response to the French intervention in Mali, it is no coincidence it

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happened in Algeria. Algeria has long warned against an intervention

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in Mali, but over recent weeks it has openly supported the French

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intervention. It seems that it is a revenge attack against such a

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support. Today in Mali, civilians were

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fleeing the combat zone, where francais its infantry will be

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fighting within hours, despite the crisis in Algeria. TRANSLATION:

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am in constant contact with the Algerian authorities who are doing,

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and will do everything that is needed. We are also in contact with

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the heads of state and Government of the countries concerned. All

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this is not without a connection, as everyone will have understood,

:06:39.:06:45.

to the operation that we are undertaking. Meanwhile, the EU has

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said it will speed up deployment of military trainers, including

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summit's expects from Britain, to work with west African forces in

:06:53.:06:56.

Mali. It is a show of support for France, taken in the face of what

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many believe is a growing risk to western security from north and

:07:01.:07:05.

west Africa. This attack against western interests, and against

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western lives in particular, will have huge consequences on the whole

:07:11.:07:17.

region. The the global war on ter yo, which has focused so much on

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countries like Iraq and Afghanistan, is now shifting in Africa. It means

:07:21.:07:24.

that a new front in the war on terror has now opened in that part

:07:24.:07:31.

of the world. The operation in Mali is intended to reduce the terrorist

:07:31.:07:34.

threat to European interests. But as the crisis continues in Algeria,

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some think it will do the opposite. For some insight into what might be

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behind the attack, the former Foreign Office minister Lord Browne

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is here, as is a specialist on North Africa. Does it look pretty

:07:52.:07:57.

likely that this is Mali-linked? Very plausible. It seems too much

:07:57.:08:00.

of a coincidence, even the French President in that clip was not

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acknowledging there is a connection. So I think even if there is some

:08:05.:08:13.

sort of opportunistic, randson- seeking component to it, what is

:08:13.:08:17.

really driving it is an Islamic radicalisation in the region, which

:08:17.:08:21.

is provoked by the French action, which is why the French were right

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to go in. Justifiable to go in, in your view? It was probably the

:08:26.:08:31.

least bad of poor choices. But there was a real risk that Bamako

:08:31.:08:34.

itself would fall, that Mali as a country would fall under the

:08:34.:08:42.

control of these Islamists. So some action of this kind had to be taken.

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The consequences will be quite severe. What kind of group are

:08:44.:08:47.

these people, what do you think they actually want? These people,

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first of all, want to publicise their opposition to the French

:08:50.:08:55.

intervention in Mali. But they probably are also seeking some

:08:56.:09:00.

benefits for themselves. Possibly some money, as has been mentioned,

:09:00.:09:03.

but also recognition among their peers. They very often want to

:09:03.:09:09.

outdo each other, between the various brigades making up Al-Qaeda

:09:09.:09:15.

in the mabgreb, there is a competition dab Maghreb. The person

:09:15.:09:21.

who claims to be behind the abduction was repeatedly reported

:09:21.:09:24.

expelled from Al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb, he was on bad

:09:24.:09:30.

terms with the key boss. He wants to reassert his power over his men,

:09:30.:09:35.

around 200-300 people, and is in the area of The Sahara, he wants to

:09:35.:09:42.

show through this action that he's he is centre. He's an Algerian? --

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He's at the centre. He's Algerian? We shouldn't forget it started in

:09:47.:09:51.

the Algerian north. This is the 1990s, Islamist groups wanted to

:09:51.:09:55.

overturn the Algerian Government, they failed in doing so, they were

:09:55.:10:04.

final low expelled from the Algerian territory in -- finally

:10:04.:10:08.

expelled from the Algerian territory and they sought refuge in

:10:08.:10:12.

Mali and they are trying to double up their logistics. This will be a

:10:12.:10:15.

nightmare for the French and British Governments and other

:10:15.:10:19.

Governments, how dangerous is it? It is very dangerous, until the

:10:19.:10:22.

event today I wondered whether or not it might be more dangerous, in

:10:22.:10:25.

France particularly, I think at the level of Governments, not

:10:25.:10:31.

necessarily at peoples, but at thes of Governments in west Africa, this

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is broadly supported, they are as alarmed as anybody by the rising

:10:36.:10:40.

tide of radical Islam. I do believe most of the Governments of the

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region will rally behind the French. What this is demonstrating is the

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limited authority of those Governments over Islamic elements

:10:48.:10:52.

in their own society. So it will be dangerous in France, it is going to

:10:52.:10:57.

be dangerous in the region. For the French, the real worry is, how are

:10:57.:11:02.

they going to get out of it. Always these interventions are easy in,

:11:02.:11:07.

but very difficult to exit. As the French press have said, part of the

:11:07.:11:16.

critque. Particular group, are they people willing to -- in terms of

:11:16.:11:20.

this particular group, are they for the cause, or is there rifely

:11:20.:11:25.

between the groups and they want to prospur and survive as -- prosper

:11:25.:11:28.

and survive as they can? Some of the fighters are ready to die. That

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is what makes them such a difficult enemy to fight for the French and

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Mali armies, because they are really ready to give their lives,

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if necessary. The big bosses will try to escape. The other ones

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really, the infantry men, they are there to die if necessary. The

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leaders are extremely well trained. Some of them started their careers

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in Afghanistan in the 1980s, or in Lebanon, fighting the Israelis, and

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they fought the Algerian Government in the 1990s, during the war in

:12:01.:12:09.

Algeria, then over to The Sahara, they were made part of the Twaregs,

:12:09.:12:13.

we are touching here the crux of the relationship between the

:12:13.:12:20.

Islamists and Twaregs, who used to be moderate Muslims, who wouldn't

:12:20.:12:27.

be tempted by this type of venture and extremism, but they are more

:12:27.:12:30.

open now to the alliance with terrorist groups. In terms of the

:12:30.:12:34.

hostage situation it could go on for a long time, we had the French

:12:34.:12:37.

trying to rescue one of their people in Somalia, and it went

:12:37.:12:42.

wrong, he had been there for years? In this case it won't go on for

:12:42.:12:46.

years n the sense that the hostages, we know where they are, the

:12:46.:12:50.

Algerian army is now surrounding them. But it could go on for months.

:12:50.:12:55.

There has been another example in Algeria in the paths, where I think

:12:55.:12:59.

that is correct, it -- in the past, where I think it is correct, it did

:12:59.:13:05.

go on more months. One element to put on the table, so familiar in

:13:05.:13:09.

the intervention, is the Government on whose behalf you intervene,

:13:09.:13:14.

whether it was way back when the Americans and French went in for

:13:14.:13:17.

South Veitnam, or whether it was Afghanistan and the Karzai regime,

:13:17.:13:22.

or now with the regime in Bamako, it is a weak regime, without much

:13:22.:13:26.

legitimacy or authority. So, you're pushing on a piece of string. You

:13:26.:13:30.

are coming in militarily, but you don't have a Government ally

:13:30.:13:33.

locally able to extend its political authority, and take

:13:33.:13:35.

advantage of your military intervention.

:13:35.:13:39.

Thank you very much. After last month's mass murder of

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20 children and six adults at a school in Connecticut, it was

:13:43.:13:47.

inevitable that President Obama would have a go at tackling

:13:47.:13:50.

America's gun law. Equally inevitable, in a country with the

:13:50.:13:55.

highest rate of civilian gun ownership on earth, the gun lobby

:13:55.:13:59.

responded vigorously and personally. The National Rifle Association

:13:59.:14:02.

asked whether President Obama's children were more important than

:14:02.:14:04.

other American children because they have armed protection when

:14:04.:14:08.

they go to school. Today the President said he would do all he

:14:08.:14:12.

could to prevent a repeat of last month's tragedy. If there is even

:14:12.:14:17.

one thing we can do to reduce this violence, if there is even one life

:14:17.:14:26.

that can be saved then we have an obligation to try. I'm going to do

:14:26.:14:33.

my part. Alan Little is in Dallas Texas which is state where you can

:14:33.:14:37.

buy a gun if you are a teenager, but not drink until you are 21. The

:14:37.:14:40.

President says he will do his part, what do we know about the details

:14:41.:14:45.

about what he wants to do? He's proposed a series of measures,

:14:45.:14:49.

which taken together, would amount to the most sweeping restrictions

:14:49.:14:54.

on gun ownership, introduced since Bill Clinton's first term, 20 years

:14:54.:14:58.

ago. He wants, for example, to introduce universal background

:14:58.:15:02.

checks, at the moment it is possible to buy a gun in certain

:15:02.:15:05.

kind of private sales or firearms sales without proving that you are

:15:05.:15:08.

not a felon, or not qualified to buy. That you are not legally

:15:08.:15:14.

allowed to buy a gun. He wants to tighten that up. He wants a ban on

:15:14.:15:16.

military-style assault weapons. Again that was tried by Bill

:15:16.:15:20.

Clinton, there was a temporary ban, it was hugely unpopular in gun-

:15:20.:15:24.

owning America. He wants to limit magazines to a maximum of ten

:15:25.:15:29.

rounds, at the moment, typically, a magazine would hold 20 rounds. He

:15:29.:15:36.

also wants to introduce higher punishments for those who buy guns

:15:36.:15:40.

legally, in order to sell them on at a profit to criminal gangs. He

:15:40.:15:46.

said none of it is possible without congressional action, he's already

:15:46.:15:49.

calling members of Congress to line up behind the gun control ticket,

:15:49.:15:53.

without that it won't be possible. Briefly, is it a dead duck the

:15:53.:15:57.

moment he said it, because he has to have that support s he might not

:15:57.:16:04.

get it? It is almost impossible to see how he will get Republican

:16:04.:16:08.

support on the ban of new purchases of assault weapons. Also from the

:16:08.:16:12.

point of view of those of us who live in countries where gun

:16:12.:16:16.

ownership is very rare, and gun restrictions are very high, this

:16:16.:16:20.

looks pretty moderate. It leaves 300 million guns still in

:16:20.:16:24.

circulation in this country. It doesn't make illegal ownership of

:16:24.:16:29.

existing assault weapons. Even so, it is likely to meet fierce

:16:29.:16:34.

resistance from the 47% of adult Americans who currently have guns

:16:34.:16:44.
:16:44.:16:53.

in their home. I have been finding What is it that gives the gun so

:16:53.:16:58.

powerful a hold on the American mind? Why does America persist with

:16:58.:17:03.

its belief that a largely unregulated supply of weapons is

:17:03.:17:10.

safe and sane? Why is the idea of gun control so toxic to so many?

:17:10.:17:15.

Europeans, for the most part think it perverse, baffling. But

:17:15.:17:20.

Americans are not like Europeans. They are shaped by a different

:17:20.:17:25.

experience. The gun has polarised this country. One America cries out

:17:25.:17:29.

in despair for reform and restraint, and that only pushes the other

:17:30.:17:35.

America to be more French trenchant still in the faith in guns. This is

:17:35.:17:39.

a journey through this other America, where the second amendment

:17:40.:17:46.

is almost a sacred text. Here in Chicago, there were more than 500

:17:46.:17:50.

homicides last year, more than double the number of US combat

:17:50.:17:54.

deaths in Afghanistan, in this city alone. The state of Illinois has

:17:54.:17:58.

some of the strictist gun controls in the United States. It is, for

:17:58.:18:04.

now, the only state in the union, where it is illegal to carry a

:18:04.:18:09.

concealed weapon outside the home. Get out of the city into rural

:18:09.:18:14.

Illinois, and you are a world away from the mean streets. Here they

:18:14.:18:19.

don't like that restriction on concealed carry at all. You are the

:18:19.:18:24.

reason we still have guns like this and we don't have to register or

:18:24.:18:34.

turn them into the state police. Guns Save Life, is a group for gun

:18:34.:18:37.

rights. They are united in the belief that gun ownership make them

:18:37.:18:40.

safer. This month they have cause for celebration. A federal appeals

:18:40.:18:46.

court has overturned the Illinois ban on concealed carry. I have

:18:46.:18:52.

rifles, shotguns, handguns, I'm also a certificated firearms

:18:52.:18:56.

instructor for shotgun and rifle, I have used that in our Boy Scout

:18:56.:19:01.

training programmes, and in today's world that right to protect

:19:01.:19:07.

onesself is still very important to our culture as a whole. If you look

:19:07.:19:12.

in our cities here, your violent crime, your gun crime is much worse,

:19:12.:19:18.

but they have the strictist gun laws, people aren't -- strictest

:19:18.:19:21.

gun laws, people aren't allowed to own firearms, it is illegal in the

:19:21.:19:25.

city. You go to the rural areas where people have firearms, they

:19:25.:19:29.

have the right to use them and they know how to use them, crime is very,

:19:29.:19:34.

very low. Especially violent crime and especially murders.

:19:34.:19:39.

Today they are learning how to build their own gun at home. It is

:19:40.:19:44.

an AR-15, one of the most common, publicly available, Assault Rifles

:19:44.:19:47.

in America. More than two million of them have been sold in the last

:19:47.:19:53.

ten years. The AR-15 was useded in both the Newtown shootings last

:19:53.:19:57.

month, and in the Colorado movie theatre shootings last July. If I

:19:57.:20:02.

can do it, anybody here can do it, I assure you. I have chosen to

:20:02.:20:04.

teach my son and my wife about firearms and firearm safety,

:20:04.:20:11.

because they are going to need that skill in life. The world can be a

:20:11.:20:16.

very dangerous place. If there is a 5% chance that there is going to be

:20:16.:20:19.

a gun incident used against you, I want my family to be prepared for

:20:19.:20:29.
:20:29.:20:38.

that 5%. If it is a 2%, I want them to be prepared for 2%. But it is

:20:38.:20:44.

about far more than self-defence. From the priories of Illinois in

:20:44.:20:50.

the Midwest, to the endless parched plains of Texas, owning a gun is an

:20:50.:20:54.

expression of a certain idea of what it is to be an American. The

:20:54.:21:03.

idea of an empowered citizenry, self-reliant, independent, free. We

:21:03.:21:06.

Europeans forget how prominently the idea of the frontier features

:21:06.:21:10.

in the American imagination, the role it has played in shaping the

:21:10.:21:12.

American character. There is nothing comparable in the European

:21:12.:21:16.

experience. The pioneers who pushed west from the eastern sea board,

:21:16.:21:21.

not that long ago, and tamed all of this, not only built a new nation,

:21:21.:21:25.

they also forged a radically different kind of citizenship. They

:21:25.:21:30.

did it in a sense with a copy of the US constitution and the Bill of

:21:30.:21:34.

Rights in the one hand, and a rifle in the other. You don't have to be

:21:34.:21:37.

a gun fanatic to see there is an enduring and intimate connection

:21:37.:21:41.

between the right to bear arms and the liberty of the individual, as

:21:41.:21:45.

many Americans conceive it. This is not so in Europe, think of all

:21:45.:21:49.

those British pubs called The King's Arms, that is a mark of how

:21:49.:21:53.

we think about guns, that they belong properly to the king, the

:21:53.:21:58.

state or nobody else. That idea, that the state should hold a

:21:58.:22:04.

monopoly on armed force is profoundly unAmerican.

:22:04.:22:08.

Whenever the prospect of gun control is back in the news,

:22:08.:22:12.

Americans flock to the gun stores to stock up. Sales rise

:22:12.:22:17.

dramatically, as gun owners seek to pre-empt a possible ban. Gun shops

:22:17.:22:22.

are everywhere. There are four- times as many gun retailers as

:22:22.:22:26.

there are McDone's restaurants. This is the biggest of the kind in

:22:26.:22:30.

the country. These guns are all ready to go on the Internet. We do

:22:30.:22:34.

a big internet business, these are both antique and modern guns.

:22:34.:22:40.

of these historic pieces date back to the 17th century. They contain a

:22:40.:22:43.

striking narrative, the story of how American history has been

:22:43.:22:48.

shaped by the gun. The American Republic owes its very existence to

:22:48.:22:56.

a revolt in 1776, by armed citizens. They called them Minute Men, they

:22:56.:23:00.

were people who were individual volunteers who had their own

:23:01.:23:05.

personal shotguns or rifles used for hunting and so forth, much like

:23:05.:23:09.

this Kentucky rifle here, this would have been an example of one

:23:09.:23:13.

of those guns. The Kentucky rifles played an important part in that.

:23:13.:23:19.

You had individual militias and so forth, formed for the purpose of

:23:19.:23:22.

protecting themselves against Indians and so forth, as it turns

:23:22.:23:26.

out, in the ousting of the British from the United States, they had to

:23:26.:23:30.

arm themselves. Without this fact of an armed citizenry, America

:23:30.:23:36.

wouldn't have won its incompetence? Absolutely not. I don't think King

:23:36.:23:40.

George would have been happy to say, take it away. In Europe we seem to

:23:40.:23:44.

have accepted the idea that only the state, only the authorities

:23:44.:23:48.

should legitimately use violence? My response to that would be people

:23:48.:23:52.

in Europe have been kow towed to the point, over a period of years,

:23:52.:23:56.

that they don't know that they are missing all of these rights that we

:23:56.:23:59.

have over here. We have had that right for so long, it has become

:23:59.:24:02.

ingrained in the American spirit and the American culture, if you

:24:02.:24:06.

want to say that. And it's not something that's easily changed.

:24:06.:24:10.

you think we are less free than you? I think you are, I think the

:24:10.:24:17.

Europeans are very much less free than we are.

:24:17.:24:21.

That fusion of guns and freedom makes gun control politically

:24:21.:24:25.

explosive. For it turns any restriction on gun ownership into

:24:25.:24:31.

an attack on liberty theself. An attack on the founding ideal of the

:24:32.:24:35.

American Republic. It is an equation that turns the state into

:24:35.:24:45.
:24:45.:24:51.

the enemy of the people. Has hare rorld, northern Texas, population

:24:51.:24:55.

is 80. Children from throughout the counties come here. After a series

:24:55.:24:59.

of shootings elsewhere in America, the education authority here felt

:24:59.:25:05.

compelled to take matters into their own hand. They decided that

:25:05.:25:10.

some of the school teachers should carry concealed weapons in the

:25:10.:25:15.

classroom. No-one knows which teachers are armed or how many, and

:25:15.:25:18.

no-one asks. Do you feel safer now? Absolutely.

:25:18.:25:25.

I have two of my own children here, still in school. It making me feel

:25:25.:25:30.

better, if I ever have to be gone for business or for, or away from

:25:30.:25:34.

the school building, that they are protected. What will happen to an

:25:34.:25:38.

armed gun man that breaks into the school? They will be shot,

:25:38.:25:43.

hopefully, best case scenario. That's the best thing we can hope

:25:43.:25:48.

for. This America views gun control with profound suspicion, even fear.

:25:48.:25:53.

It is an America where there is much dark talk of Barack Obama, and

:25:53.:25:57.

the emerging tyranny of liberal values. In this America, the right

:25:57.:26:03.

to bear arms is the last defence of the people against an overbearing

:26:03.:26:07.

and oppressive state. If you hear the rhetoric coming from the White

:26:07.:26:10.

House, they are talking about mob rule, they love petition, they love

:26:10.:26:14.

a lot of people signing petition, it shows them that the majority

:26:14.:26:18.

want this. He even talks about the mandate he has. He has a mandate

:26:18.:26:22.

from the people to basically do whatever he wants to do. No he

:26:22.:26:25.

doesn't, he has a mandate to be elected as President, not to

:26:25.:26:29.

rewrite the constitution. You are genuinely frightened of the

:26:29.:26:33.

Government, and the dangers implicit for that? Big Government

:26:33.:26:43.
:26:43.:26:43.

is responsible for many of the horrors of history. 100 million

:26:43.:26:48.

Americans have guns at home, 47% of the adult population. How do you

:26:48.:26:53.

eradicate the danger of that when, in the mind of so many, guns are

:26:53.:27:02.

synonymous with the basic freedoms on which America is founded. In

:27:02.:27:07.

case you are hearing strange noises in the studio tonight, that is the

:27:07.:27:13.

excellent chef, Henry Harris, of the restaurant Racine, preparing

:27:13.:27:17.

horse meat from us for later. Something that differentiates us

:27:17.:27:21.

from the friends over the channel. This is another. Two days ahead

:27:21.:27:23.

from his supposed big speech on Europe, David Cameron set out today

:27:23.:27:27.

what could be part of the Conservative battle plan at the

:27:27.:27:31.

next election, he said voters will be able to choose between taking

:27:31.:27:37.

powers back through the Tories, or Labour handing over powers to

:27:37.:27:40.

Brussels. Ed Miliband taunted the Prime Minister that he was losing

:27:40.:27:44.

control of the Conservative Party. In a moment we will hear how it is

:27:44.:27:47.

seen from one of Britain's strongest allies in Europe, Sweden.

:27:47.:27:51.

First, when a Conservative group called Fresh Start demanded a

:27:51.:27:54.

significant repatriation of powers from Brussels, we assess the

:27:54.:27:59.

politics and the dangers which lie ahead.

:27:59.:28:02.

Being Prime Minister means you are never short of advice, pushing you

:28:02.:28:06.

and pulling you in different directions. And, with Mr Cameron's

:28:06.:28:11.

big speech coming up on Friday on Europe, that is what's on

:28:11.:28:14.

everyone's minds. His backbenchers, the other party leaders, and, of

:28:14.:28:19.

course, other countries. They want to know details, what is Mr

:28:19.:28:23.

Cameron's vision for Europe, and how does he propose to achieve it T

:28:23.:28:26.

the problem is, nothing he says will satisfy everybody, and there

:28:26.:28:33.

is a real danger he might not satisfy anyone! Not surprisingly,

:28:33.:28:37.

the Labour leader, Ed Miliband, in the Commons today, of not keen to

:28:37.:28:41.

help Mr Cameron out. At a time when there are one million young people

:28:41.:28:46.

out of work, and we have businesses going to the wall, what is he doing,

:28:46.:28:51.

he spent six months to create a speech to bring five years of

:28:51.:28:54.

uncertainty for Britain. When it comes to Europe, it is the same old

:28:54.:28:58.

Tories, a divided party, and a weak Prime Minister. What we see from

:28:58.:29:02.

his position, he wants absolutely no change in the relationship

:29:02.:29:05.

between Britain and Europe, and he doesn't believe the British people

:29:05.:29:11.

should be given a choice! What do Mr Cameron's backbenchers want to

:29:11.:29:15.

hear? There is a range of opinion. Some want the UK to have a

:29:15.:29:19.

referendum before any negotiations begin? I think the referendum needs

:29:19.:29:22.

to be held this parliament to get the British people to buy into the

:29:22.:29:25.

idea that we need to negotiate a new relationship. I think that is

:29:25.:29:28.

the true of the British people. We need to demonstrate it is, so that

:29:28.:29:33.

when our Prime Minister goes to Brussels, it is not just the leader

:29:33.:29:36.

of the biggest minority party in the House of Commons saying this,

:29:36.:29:40.

it is the national leader, who has maybe 80% of the British people

:29:40.:29:44.

voting in a referendum to say, yes, we want that new relationship, yes

:29:44.:29:48.

it must be based on trade, and no it shouldn't be common Government

:29:48.:29:53.

of the kind emerging in Euroland. Mr Cameron is clear that any

:29:53.:29:56.

referendum would not come until after negotiations. He's not clear

:29:56.:30:00.

what a "no" vote in that referendum would mean. Does it mean we leave

:30:00.:30:04.

the EU automatically, some of his backbenchers think that keeping

:30:04.:30:08.

that unclear is not credible. have suggested to the PM two things,

:30:08.:30:13.

very briefly, one, whatever commitment he gives, and I

:30:13.:30:17.

personally, we hope the commitment has to be believable, that is why

:30:17.:30:21.

we have suggested legislation in the parliament, secondly, a

:30:21.:30:24.

referendum, we would hope, would have to be credible, and have an

:30:24.:30:27.

out option on it. Whatever the in option is after renegotiation.

:30:27.:30:32.

Today, Mr Cameron got another set of ideas from a group of

:30:32.:30:36.

Conservative MPs called Fresh Start. The pref fis to their document

:30:36.:30:44.

written by the preface of their document is written by the Foreign

:30:44.:30:49.

Secretary. They don't want Mr Cameron to start making threats to

:30:49.:30:52.

the EU. Genuinely what people want to see, and colleagues in

:30:52.:30:58.

parliament want to see, is a real effort to renegotiate a better deal

:30:58.:31:05.

for Britain. So that we don't want to want to wall -- fall out with

:31:05.:31:09.

the rest of the EU or stand alone among 27 states, we want a better

:31:09.:31:13.

deal for Britain, that works for the EU, and give them what they

:31:13.:31:18.

want to see, which is greater fiscal union for European countries.

:31:18.:31:22.

To see how poisonous the politics are for David Cameron, let's skip

:31:22.:31:25.

forward to the end of the negotiations with European partners.

:31:25.:31:29.

Assuming they are successful and Mr Cameron gets a deal, he comes back

:31:29.:31:33.

and gets a referendum. He's oblige, of course, to campaign for a "yes"

:31:34.:31:38.

vote, what does his party do? Some euro-sceptics are likely to be

:31:38.:31:42.

unsatisfied, they will push for a "no" vote, and there are those who

:31:42.:31:47.

want out of the EU all together, and they will campaign for a "no"

:31:47.:31:54.

vote, what Mr Cameron will do is have a Europe referendum where he

:31:54.:31:57.

has engineered his party to be split, and the unofficial

:31:57.:32:01.

Conservative position is the polls are right on the wrong side of

:32:01.:32:04.

public opinion. One of the things the public are most concerned with,

:32:04.:32:09.

indeed, one of the reasons behind the rise of UKIP is EU migration,

:32:09.:32:13.

that is unlikely to be touched on in any of the future negotiations.

:32:13.:32:19.

You can do some things to that, to, for example, make it harder for EU

:32:19.:32:24.

migrants to come here and claim benefits. But to strike down on the

:32:24.:32:28.

entire area would be a fundamental rewriting of the treaties, this is

:32:28.:32:31.

one of the founding principles of the EU. I don't think the Tories

:32:31.:32:36.

can and should go there, but they can try to manage it a bit better.

:32:36.:32:41.

Mr Cameron's big speech in the mether lands on Friday, has even

:32:41.:32:46.

come to the attention of Taiwan's animators, you don't need to speak

:32:46.:32:52.

the language to work out how difficult they think his position

:32:52.:32:56.

is. Sweden, like Britain, is in the European Union, but outside the

:32:56.:32:59.

eurozone. Sweden, like Britain, has seen a growth of the Euro-

:32:59.:33:04.

scepticism, and Sweden, like Britain has a centre-right-led

:33:04.:33:07.

Government. How did they view what is going on within the Conservative

:33:07.:33:11.

Party? I caught up with Sweden's Finance Minister, who is on a visit

:33:11.:33:16.

to London. Minister, I just wondered how you

:33:16.:33:20.

view the prospect that Britain could actually end up leaving the

:33:20.:33:24.

European Union? For Sweden it is a very worrying prospect. We need the

:33:24.:33:28.

UK at the heart of the European co- operation. The UK is part of a

:33:28.:33:31.

dynamic and growing Europe, and normally Sweden and the UK tend to

:33:31.:33:35.

have the same views on openness, competitiveness and free trade. For

:33:35.:33:40.

us it is very worrying that the British debate seems to be sliding,

:33:40.:33:44.

where you almost accidentally might be leaving the European Union.

:33:44.:33:48.

that what you worry about, not that it is a deliberate act, but it may

:33:48.:33:52.

go that way by accident almost? Politically processes are very

:33:52.:33:58.

difficult to control. For us, the UK is a score ally, and also, I

:33:58.:34:02.

think, from a Swedish-British perspective, London is the

:34:02.:34:05.

financial centre of Europe, if the UK is sliding out of Europe, I

:34:06.:34:09.

can't really see how London can play such a crucial role as it do

:34:10.:34:13.

both for the UK and Sweden and the rest of Europe. Do you worry about

:34:13.:34:18.

the uncertainty, it is a very uncertain time for British business,

:34:18.:34:21.

who certainly complain they want to know what is going to happen?

:34:21.:34:25.

think that is a clear problem. When I meet the Swedish internationals,

:34:25.:34:29.

nobody is talking about the European Union issue for the UK,

:34:29.:34:35.

only three to six months ago, today it is an issue that is brought up

:34:35.:34:37.

in my conversation, where they are asking me what will happen, and

:34:37.:34:40.

can't they leave, are they really seriously considering this. I think

:34:40.:34:43.

that uncertainty is quite problematic for Britain. However,

:34:43.:34:47.

Sweden has the own problems with the European Union sometimes, there

:34:47.:34:51.

are some things that you don't like. I wondered, as a very good friend

:34:51.:34:56.

of this country, what you feel might be practical or possible in

:34:56.:34:59.

terms of can you go back over the past, and renegotiate certain

:34:59.:35:09.
:35:09.:35:09.

things. Can you say policing policy, criminal justice, perhaps some

:35:09.:35:12.

things with paying benefits to migrant that is come here, that

:35:12.:35:15.

those things are possible to renegotiate? We have to listen to

:35:15.:35:18.

what the British Government is saying here, and fundamentally we

:35:18.:35:22.

are supportive of a solution that would make it possible for the UK

:35:22.:35:27.

to stay in the union. But this is a negotiation between the 27 member

:35:27.:35:31.

states, so I think one should be realistic of the difficulty we are

:35:31.:35:35.

facing here. As you know the US State Department has suggested that

:35:35.:35:39.

the real role for Britain has to be as a strong player in the EU as you

:35:39.:35:43.

want, and as David Cameron says he wants. They also suggest that even

:35:43.:35:49.

the process of a referendum can lead to countries turning inward.

:35:49.:35:53.

You had a referendum on the euro, do you feel that is what happens,

:35:53.:35:58.

your country turned inward, we may turn inward if we have a

:35:58.:36:02.

referendum? Referendums tend to be very close to a 50-50 score between

:36:02.:36:07.

the voters. Obviously accidents can happen in a referendum campaign,

:36:07.:36:11.

and so, therefore, there is an uncertainty here. For us, who are

:36:12.:36:16.

close to Britain, who are reliant on the British voice to be at the

:36:16.:36:20.

table when we are talking about openness and competitiveness, this

:36:20.:36:24.

is an uncertainty that is worrying for us. Just a final point, the

:36:24.:36:28.

biggest picture within Europe, really, it is not just the British

:36:28.:36:31.

who have certain reservations about Europe, there is a degree of

:36:31.:36:34.

uncertainty all across Europe, about what kind of Europe we are

:36:34.:36:39.

going to be living in five years time. I wondered what your thoughts

:36:39.:36:45.

are? You made it absolutely clear you wanted Europe of a 27, but we

:36:45.:36:49.

will have a multi-speed Europe, and we already have, in a way?

:36:49.:36:54.

deeply worried that some of the voices in the Franco-German debate

:36:54.:36:58.

are indicating they want a fully fledged fiscal and banking union.

:36:58.:37:02.

There are very few citizens supporting that, that would divide

:37:03.:37:07.

Europe between one area and the rest. I strongly believe in the

:37:07.:37:13.

European Union as a world function -- well-functioning 27 member-state.

:37:13.:37:17.

That is why you want Britain at your side? Most definitely, for us

:37:17.:37:20.

it is a key point that Britain stays in Europe, it is a strong

:37:20.:37:26.

voice, on the same side as us when it comes to flexibility, dynamics

:37:26.:37:28.

and openness. Thank you very much minister.

:37:28.:37:32.

News that horse meat has been found in burgers on sale in British

:37:32.:37:36.

supermarkets of on the front page of some newspapers today. But not

:37:36.:37:41.

everyone was alarmed, on Twitter, some vegetarians pondered why meat

:37:41.:37:46.

eaters are prepared to eat cows and sheep, even occasionally deer and

:37:47.:37:53.

rabbit, but go into deep shock taking a bite out of a pony. Beyond

:37:53.:37:58.

the mislabelling of horses beef, is it British to not want to dine on

:37:59.:38:03.

some animals, while happily chewing on others. I have never eaten horse

:38:03.:38:08.

before, Henry Harris is chef and owner of the restaurant Racine.

:38:08.:38:13.

He's preparing a bit of beef and horse for us. They look similar,

:38:13.:38:18.

are they easy to cook? They are, the horse, darker, cooks the same

:38:18.:38:24.

way as a beef steak. You will cook up as Steve Smith serves up a bit

:38:24.:38:34.
:38:34.:38:35.

of an advertiser for us. ( Black Beauty Music) I don't know

:38:35.:38:38.

about you, but I like my burgers measured in pounds, not hands.

:38:38.:38:44.

That is why we have come here to Lingfield Park, where they

:38:44.:38:52.

appreciate horse flesh in the old fashioned way. We found grown men

:38:52.:38:57.

so distraught over horse burgers that they were weeping into their

:38:57.:39:01.

betting slips. I won't lie, there were a lot of long faces. I think

:39:01.:39:05.

when you are a child, to see a horse or a donkey or anything, you

:39:05.:39:09.

always seem to, from being a child, always want to ride them. Is that

:39:09.:39:15.

true for you? It was for me, yes. The first thing I ever rode was a

:39:16.:39:20.

donkey on Blackpool sands when I was a kid. Did you place? No it

:39:20.:39:24.

wasn't a raise. What do you think about the British attitude to

:39:24.:39:32.

horses? We are rather fond of them, aren't we? Yeah, I don't want them

:39:32.:39:38.

in my hamburgers. What are the odds on finding a bookie from Tasmania,

:39:39.:39:44.

who has sampled exotic sweet meats? It is like kangaroo in Australia,

:39:44.:39:49.

if you like a wallabee, it is tasty for those who want that. What does

:39:49.:39:54.

that taste like? It has a different twaes, I wouldn't say it is --

:39:54.:39:58.

Taste, I wouldn't say it is a sweet taste, but you have to be switched

:39:58.:40:03.

on to like and appreciate it. British love their horse, William

:40:03.:40:10.

Shakespeare attributed to Richard 3, the battle of 1885, "my horse, my

:40:10.:40:18.

horse, my kingdom for a horse", you have Black Beauty right up to Dick

:40:18.:40:23.

Turpin. Horses have been revered throughout the centuries, we had

:40:23.:40:26.

the plough horse pulling the plouings, there is an affection for

:40:26.:40:33.

horse, and no eating of horses. Hang on a minute. Horse meat is

:40:33.:40:36.

rapidly becoming part of Britain's diet. There was a moment in our

:40:36.:40:43.

history, a folk memory we have all but suppressed. It is estimated

:40:43.:40:47.

three-quarters of the horse meat sold goes to the restaurants.

:40:47.:40:52.

Decent men and women tied on the nose bag for rare horse because of

:40:53.:41:01.

shortages and rationing after the war. How does it sound so far Ed?

:41:01.:41:06.

Pretty sad. Ever since Mr Ed and other four-legged friends got their

:41:06.:41:10.

own shows, few of us could bring ourselves to look a horse steak in

:41:10.:41:14.

the eye. Back at Lingfield Park, I'm not

:41:14.:41:19.

saying it is getting foggy, but the starter is using flares. What do

:41:19.:41:24.

you eat before a race? Well, she's carrying nine stone seven, and I'm

:41:24.:41:28.

claiming seven, I could eat whatever I wanted today. That is

:41:28.:41:34.

brilliant. You have had lots of cake? Plenty of Wheetabix.

:41:34.:41:39.

wouldn't have a horse burger? Nothing like that. If I were to

:41:39.:41:44.

take you to a fast food outlet and offer you on the BBC a horse burger,

:41:44.:41:50.

or part there of, what would you say? I would be absolutely appalled,

:41:50.:41:54.

and so would anybody in this country. The thought of us going in

:41:54.:41:58.

and having a horse meat burger on BBC hospitality, surely it would

:41:58.:42:02.

never stoop to that level. We will soon find out. Henry has been

:42:02.:42:07.

cooking up the horse and beef, and with us is the food critic Rose

:42:07.:42:10.

Prince. The first thing to say is getting hold of this was very

:42:10.:42:15.

difficult. We were able to get in London very easily, zebra, insects,

:42:15.:42:19.

all kinds of things you can eat, but getting that is tricky. Does it

:42:19.:42:25.

surprise you? No, not at all. Most people, there is this misconception

:42:25.:42:32.

that we shouldn't be eating horse. I think there is the whole pet

:42:32.:42:37.

conotations, and companionship hors give people that puts them off. You

:42:37.:42:42.

go to the continent, Italy are the largest consumers of horse meat,

:42:42.:42:47.

they don't have the same connection and they appreciate it for more its

:42:47.:42:51.

cullinary rather than companion qualities. While you are letting it

:42:51.:42:56.

settle for a second, I will bring you in. Exotic meats provided the

:42:56.:43:00.

meat for us, it was tricky to get it. The core of this particular

:43:00.:43:06.

story is about mislabelling, if you go into buy beef you don't want

:43:06.:43:14.

horse in it? Nobody should adult ate beef, if you buy beef it should

:43:14.:43:17.

be beef. This is a terrible story about the food industry, I hope

:43:17.:43:22.

somebody gets to the bottom of it and sorts it out. It appears to

:43:22.:43:25.

have gone on for some time. have eaten horse before? I have,

:43:26.:43:29.

only once in the UK. I went to dinner with somebody in the West

:43:29.:43:34.

Country. They produced horse, they did warn us. They claimed they had

:43:34.:43:39.

been buying it regularly from Market Street holder on the street

:43:39.:43:44.

corner who kept it under the counter. It is not illegal? For the

:43:44.:43:49.

reasons Henry has given, people find it unacceptable. The taboos

:43:49.:43:54.

given in the and what Henry has said are true. We are very spoilt,

:43:54.:43:59.

we can choose what we eat. When you look back to war time and to when

:43:59.:44:04.

the French started to eat horse when the revolution started. The

:44:04.:44:09.

arris crates had it first. They ate it out of need. It is one of those

:44:09.:44:15.

meats that falls into the catagories sometimes. It had

:44:15.:44:18.

supposedly health-giving properties, it is supposed to be low in fat?

:44:18.:44:22.

Dismissing it is in conflict that we are always looking for healthy

:44:22.:44:26.

meats these days. Horse meat has very little fat in it. As you can

:44:26.:44:32.

see by locking at it. I don't know if you want to have a try? I don't

:44:33.:44:39.

know if my family would forgive me. You will have some? Maybe I should

:44:39.:44:43.

pour some wine. To be honest I would rather have the horse meat

:44:43.:44:49.

than the BBC wine. That is another story! There we go. What wine

:44:49.:44:53.

actually goes with this Henry, do you think? Because it is so rich in

:44:53.:44:59.

iron, you want something that is sun baked, a good southern French

:44:59.:45:04.

Rhone would be a good companion for it. I'm not sure it fits into that

:45:04.:45:08.

category. I have forgotten which one is which? The darker red one is

:45:08.:45:11.

the horse meat. I'll have a Government That is the interesting

:45:11.:45:15.

thing, how this got into burgers is it would actually improve the

:45:15.:45:19.

assurance of a burger, adding it to the meat. You would certainly make

:45:19.:45:26.

it look leaner, you would make it look like you were getting more.

:45:26.:45:29.

is excellent, it tastes like the best steak, it isn't very faty. I

:45:29.:45:35.

take it nobody comes into your restaurant, a great French

:45:35.:45:41.

restaurant, do you have any horse? Occasionally people ask for it, but

:45:41.:45:45.

the logistics of buying a decent quantity from France, importing it

:45:45.:45:49.

to sell to one person and having kilos left, it doesn't make sense.

:45:49.:45:56.

Will we ever change our habits, we love horses, wonderful animals, we

:45:56.:46:01.

love horse racing, we won't go down the French route whatever. It is

:46:01.:46:05.

unlikely, in the same way in France it is rarer and rarer to find T if

:46:05.:46:10.

you Google horse butchers, there used to be one hundreds and

:46:10.:46:14.

hundreds, now there is one or two, it is disappearing, because

:46:14.:46:20.

people's tastes change. You don't think it will change in Britain? We

:46:20.:46:25.

eat zebra, apparently? I think it is something, it falls into a

:46:25.:46:28.

category of foods which will always be taboo, because of our

:46:28.:46:34.

relationships with hors being so strong. We quite enjoy knocking the

:46:34.:46:39.

French. They eat disgusting things like terrible things like snails

:46:39.:46:45.

and frogs legs. It belongs in those catagories of what the

:46:45.:46:49.

unsophisticated people do and we don't. I will continue to be

:46:49.:46:51.

unsophisticated. That is it for Newsnight. We will see which of the

:46:51.:46:55.

team surrounding us can be tempted by a bit of horse. We will be back

:46:55.:47:05.
:47:05.:47:26.

by a bit of horse. We will be back again tomorrow. Good night Hello

:47:26.:47:30.

there, another cold evening, cold night, widespread frost, central

:47:30.:47:36.

eastern areas. Dense fog in the east of England. Further west

:47:36.:47:39.

patchy rain and snow over the Welsh mountains. That split will continue

:47:39.:47:43.

through the day. Brightness through northern parts of England, once the

:47:43.:47:48.

low cloud and mist has broken up. A few patches around the vale of York,

:47:48.:47:52.

Lyndonshire and towards East Anglia. Most of central England will be dry

:47:52.:47:56.

and bright. Thicker cloud could produce light snow, nothing to

:47:56.:48:01.

concern us at this stage. Further south and west, greyer skies,

:48:01.:48:04.

strengthening breeze, bringing patchy rain. Slight snow over the

:48:04.:48:07.

moors, across the Welsh mountains, starting to feel increasingly cold

:48:07.:48:11.

as the wind picks up. As is the case in Northern Ireland, we will

:48:11.:48:16.

see more in the case of rain and drizzle through the day. Away from

:48:16.:48:22.

the far west, dry and bright, with sunny spells around. Some freezing

:48:22.:48:25.

throughout. The south-easterly wind continues to strengthen,

:48:25.:48:29.

interacting with the rain band. Snow developing over the hills here.

:48:29.:48:33.

Around the coast of south-west England and Walesment for the

:48:33.:48:36.

morning rush hour on Friday, western England and Wales, there

:48:36.:48:40.

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