15/01/2013 Newsnight


With HMV the latest retail failure, what is the future for the high street? Plus, the population race in Israel's Negev desert, and should teachers get performance related pay?

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Tonight, coming to a high street near you, nothing! What do the


difficulties that HMV, now in administration, the loss of Jessops,


Clinton Cards, and JJB Sports, among others, tell you about the


future of your town. They are calling this a day in the death of


the high street, the problem is, these shoppers don't seem to have


noticed. So is the gloom on the high street justified, we will


debate what the future of shopping really looks like.


Also tonight: We are determined to make them glisten again. David Ben-


Gurion's Zionist dream of populateing the Negev desert, with


Jewish settlers, turns into a fight with Bedouin Arabs. How can we


expect Israeli people to deal with a big issue like creating two


countries here, when they are not even sure that 20 years from today


they will have a country of their own. And teachers' pay will be


linked to performance, dismantling the national pay structure,


according to the unions. Does it add up to a better education for


our children. Good evening. You would think that all the outpouring


of nostalgia for the music store, HMV, might have translated into


profits, if any of the people complaining about it going into


administration, actually spent much money there. Isn't that the point,


we might love the variety of our high streets, and mourn when shops


close, but are we going to have to get used to it. How many of us have


browsed in a real store, and then bought something on-line at a


discount. Do you really miss Woolworths? So, what will the slow


death of household names mean for the way we shop, and the way our


towns and cities look? Is the high street fined? Paul Mason has been


to Brighton to take a peek into the future.


Brighton, seaside Wonderland, gay capital of the universe, retail


crisis, same as everywhere else. The once prestigious shopping


street has the same mix of the blinging and the boarded up you see


across Britain. And now, HMV threatens to become the latest


retail casualty. Actually, the Brighton branch of HMV was mobbed


today, by buyers, in search of bargains, and though the staff were


having to turn away vouchers, there was plenty of cash flowing in. But


the chain, which sells 30% of all CDs in Britain, is in


administration, and the experts know why. The young people will not


necessarily now buy the hard goods, as in solid CDs and DVDs, they will


be downloading. And therefore, they wouldn't go into HMV, and yet they


are the group to be most likely to be walking about on the high street.


Where as older people have got better and better at buying things


on-line. They want the physical thing, but they are less likely to


be walking into an HMV. HMV haven't recognised the potential of getting


older people to come into towns and go and shop in HNVs -- HMVs. It is


all part of a massive change that has changed the high street. Latest


figures show 14% of the shops in Britain's town centres are empty.


In the first six months of last year, 20 stores closed, on average,


every day. Computer game shops were amongst the hardest hit, their


total number dropped from 44% from January to June. Furniture shops


were down 37%, toy shops down 33%. Of course, in the hey day of the


big music store, whether it was vinyl or plastic, the attraction


was never in just the range of things they sold. You could come,


you could stand in an aisle with a certain kind of music and see what


people were wearing. You could see what people were buying. And if you


were really lucky, your eyes would meet somebody else's eyes. The


problem s of course, you can do all that on the Internet as well! On


iTunes and Spotify you are instantly part of a community, the


music you buy and listen to can affect what others buy and listen


to. It is quite social, sometimes oversocial. On Amazon, you can buy


almost everything, and whether it is books or films, the time between


wanting and getting can be seconds. The way that people decide to buy


now is massive he 0ly influenced who they are connected to on


Facebook and dwit twitter. Rather than waiting for Top Of The Pops to


tell you what to buy, they will see on-line what is influential, and


see who is talking about that, and make a decision based on a friend,


or someone they might know, increasingly people aren't trusting


shops or big bodies, but people like us. That's the theory. But at


HMV today, there were still some die hards for the an loing


experience. What are you buying? bunch of stuff, CDs I am wanting, I


felt I should do. You are in the iPod generation and the Spotify


generation, why do you still need CDs? I want them because when I'm


listening to something I like looking at the sleeve and it is


nostalgic reasons, really. What have you got here? Echo and the


Bunnymen, oasis. Is this a retro trip, they were all popular when I


was at university? There is stuff from now, but it is just getting


stuff that I don't already own on CD. How would you feel if the shops


like this disappear? It would affect me, I have no internet or


computer, I come here all the time to get CDs and DVDs, especially for


my son, who likes unusual music, so, yes, I will miss it. What do you


mean by "unusual" music? Not that you can get in the supermarkets.


When you come with your friends, you can choose with what film you


want with your friend and take it home. If you are shopping on-line


you have to wait a few days, and plan ahead, off the cuff you can


come and choose what film you want. In that there is a clue to the


future of retail N towns with a lot of young people, you find, now, a


lot of shops selling an experience rather than physical things. The


tattoo shop, the unusual tobacco shop, the almost ubiquitious beauty


parlour? It will be smaller retailers relying on the Internet


to spread their messages, it will be bigger retailers talking about


experiences and directing them to buy there. New technologies are


good as killing off business model that is no longer work, but


prolonged recessions are quite good at killing off business model that


is should work and could work. In what's happening on Britain's high


streets, there is a bit of both. a recession, particularly, markets


polarise and fragment. So you get specialist retailers surviving,


where generalists will tend to go, and people who are top end or


bottom end, discounters or specialist retailer, the Waitrose


or Aldi difference, will do well, the middles will drop out. HMV was


a middle? It was a middle. everybody stuck in the middle of


this retail squeeze understands, it is tough. Mike Tobin is the boss of


a �2 billion data network group, teleCity, it provides some services


on-line. And we have the head of Leon, head of fast food on the high


street. Davi Hepworth helped launch magazines like Heat and Mojo. The


nostalgia was great, but it never paid the bills. They were always


going to get in trouble? When they were dealing in a market that so


quickly shrunk in recent years, by illegal downloading, legitimate


downloading, competition for on- line CD sellers. In a recession,


when you are as extends as HMV are on the number of stores they have


got. It was very difficult to see them surviving. You will miss it?


used to work there, 30 years ago. And so I am that have generation,


drawn to the high street with the promise of being able to hang about


in book shops and record shops, which are almost like libraries and


cathedrals to me. My whole generation of people just did that,


in the absence of anything else to do. That's what you like doing,


being near the product. I don't think my children feel the same


thing at all. Apart from the fellow who wanted today buy Echo and the


Bunnymen, most of us maybe won't miss it, did the Internet kill it


off? That is a contributing factor, it is sad to hear news like today,


families will suffer as a result of that. Ultimately we are going


through a structural change of the way we live and work. The Internet


traffic in Europe is doubling every year. And that's because we just


are doing more things on-line. 9% of Britain's economy now is on-line.


9%? That is the largest in the world, actually. By definition a


large proportion of that is downloading music, videos, apps.


Are they particularly susceptible, some things you can't do on the


Internet, but DVDs and books you certainly can do? Can you, the user


experience in the record shop is listening to music, apart from


social interaction. If you look at what is happening on the high


street, a lot of high street stores are replaced by quality food chains


and cafes and coffee shops. People are still coming together, the


social element is still there, not enough in a shop or cafe. That may


be true, perhaps, however good you are, you are not the target, we are


going to you because we are going somewhere else to get shopping, you


will be affected as well, potentially? I think the high


street is about to face a golden age. If the market is allowed to


work. Three structural things, the first thing, the inner recession,


in order for markets to clear prices need to come down, and


assets need to reprise, the high street, because rents are fixed,


and because people's debt is at such a high level, the rents aren't


coming down, they are on an upward- only trajectory, and are not


flexible to bring new people into the high street. Somebody will have


to take a haircut in the economic system, in order for rents to be


priced at where they should be. might be people like you, people


who have got a store front? It will be pension funds and banks. There


is a timebomb, where eventually banks are kidding themselves this


real estate is worth a certain amount of money. Landlords have to


reduce? Landlords and banks. Deregulate the high street so we


allow small traders and market traders to populate the high street.


We are a nation of shopkeepers. Apple, one of the most amazing on-


line companies, chooses to have apple stores, the highest revenue


in the world per square foot, something positive is happening in


retail, and all the small business, people who make their own shirts,


shoes, costume jewellery, let them in the high street. It is only


structural things getting in the way. Where are you on this, do you


see this great golden dawn, or do you see the possibility that 4,000


people might lose their jobs because of HMV and all the other


things we have covered? I would like to stop using the word


"decline", it is revolution, our lives are changing forever. We


expect everything in 0.011 secretary seconds, that is what we


expect, we don't write letters we e-mail or text. The consumer


doesn't understand yet, it will be a centre of socialisation, cafes,


great facilities, and as you have mentioned, retailers to do their


jobs brilliantly I don't want retailers who do their jobs just


adequately any more. You say, that but I talked to a very canny


retailer who said, there is a choice if you are going to stay on


the high street, you either have to provide theatre, some kind of great


experience, which you have suggested, or you are really cheap.


The possibility is, given we are in a recession, a lot of cheap stores,


charity shops, it might be bookmakers, people obviously who


can make a profit, but who don't face the problems you will? Charity


shops are an exception, there are fantastic charity shops that


understand retail theatre as well. Beware of the cheap price, there is


a one-way street with that, that is offering value, it is hard to get


straight back up again. Isn't that what people are looking for?


don't think it is, people are looking to be stimulated, to enjoy


shopping, to get hypnotised by it again. Perhaps you would like to be


like that, is that where your pocket goes? My pocket is like


everybody else, as it said in the report, it is fragmented the way


you spend. You spend in loads of different ways. One thing that is


important to say, this is not just about retail, this is also about


businesses, and if you take the demise of HMV is an event of huge


import to the record business in this country. Shops have not just


been places that you bought things, but that celebrated things. They


have been cathedrals to things, things that made you feel that


books or records or fashion, or whatever, was important. You found


stuff you didn't know about? created and built value all the


time. The retail experience built value. Once that disappears on-line,


it can go out of your mind, I think the thing about on-line buying is


it is a really good way of buying things, and it is a really bad way


of selling things. Bringing things to people's attention. That is your


business there. I would hesitate to agree. There is more than just the


choice of either going to a high street or going on-line that is


happening here. If you think about the record industry, the topic we


started with. Back 15 years ago in 1998, there were 175 million CDs


bought in the UK. Last year there was 69 million bought in the UK,


but 30 million downloads, that is barely half the number of the


actual music sales of 15 years ago. Because the way we are actually


listening is changing. We mentioned Spotify earlier on, people are


sharing music, they are listening to it one time and not buying it


any more. Where does the person go, either for the experience of


opening the book or feeling what it look like or seeing the stuff. In


other words, do you think a lot of bricks and mortar stores will be


like showroom, where you don't actually take away the product, but


you may order it on-line and try it out? By the time you have gone to a


clothes shop, when you have tried on, there is your impulse buy, you


want it there and then, you wouldn't go back and order it have


it delivered later. But there is a clear distinction between those


sorts of shops, where you can't actually do it on-line unless you


trust implicitly in the seizing of your garment, and something that


you can lisence -- seizing of your garden and something you with


listen to. Shop centres are managed by managing the estate hole


listically, the kaornbee Estate is managed by Shaftsbury, they own


most of the properties on the estate, they managed it as an


ecosystem very, very well, high street Kensington is much less well


off, it is declining because you have a whole series of individuals


not working together. The high street is a defined ecosystem, and


co-ordination needs to be increased to manage it. People across the


country, sometimes they complain that wherever you are, you get the


same stores, one after another. You can almost predict where they will


be. The high street itself is actually quite boring in some


places? I always call it the "vanilla state", when you go to a


town or city and think where am I, because it is the same. It is down


to the councils. We have an amazing heritage, I go to Australia and the


US a lot, they would kill for it. We have to make the towns come to


light, we have to make sure the individual stores, the food and


Beveridge, the socialisation, and other retails to go with it. It has


to be about working hard to get consumer demand and keep consumers


in store and sell to them. either of you think we could go


down the American route, there are cities with fantastic individual


shops, New York, and San Franciscos, there is a lot of place where is it


is the same, the anchor store from a chain, and walking down the mall


they are the same? We have 200 football pitches worth of out of


town shopping at the moment in this country. That is a huge amount of


out of town, I really hope we don't just go down that route. We have to


start celebrating it, I don't think it is just about the retailer, the


point you mentioned about retailers and communities working together is


vital. We have to start pulling together, and stop talking about


demise and finger pointing. Are we nothing talgic about it, we shop


one way and think -- nostalgic about it, we shop one way and think


another? I think so, if you listen in a restaurant to some music, --


in a store and you can listen to music and buy it t if you can


shazam it and buy it in a click, you don't worry about the price.


Community is what drives the human spirit, not on-line, where is the


record industry make money, through concerts, because you want peer-to-


peer. Ironically the biggest growth in music revenues is not on-line,


it is through physical experiences. If councils relaxed the music laws,


which they have done, and allowed restaurants to play music, and


where you are not allowed to dance, in Westminster two people moving


rite mittically is called dancing, and -- rit mittically, and it is


called dancing and tough stop. If we stopped the laws and maybe life


would return to the high street. That goes back to the theatre point


f you have to add something and you can't compete in price, you have to


give something. You can, it is not like you have to go to Les


Miserables, the apple store, Nike Town, a consumer brand on to the


high street. And a steiny record shop called Bleaker Street in New


York, you don't need all the expense. A balance has to be struck,


the apple store works because you are not faced with a bewildering


array of products, you are getting one thing. The megastore deal


became very quickly overwhelming, you no longer felt warm about it,


but vaguely ill. You were overchoiceed. Very briefly, what do


you think the future is for the high street, is it shopping malls,


on-line and a few nice niche retailers? There is an interesting


thing we haven't spoken about, not the out of town malls but the


Westfields, like in London, you are in a city but you have that


environment around. That is true of Belfast? You have skating rinks,


cinemas, you can have restaurants, bars, night life, the shops are


almost the side show to the relationship building that goes on


within that environment. I think that's almost like your town centre


building up again. What do you think of it? I'm not sure it will


happen in Wakefield and Peterborough, that is my feeling. I


have no idea what will happen to the high street. I do feel that


there will still be record stores and book stores, but they will be


very targeted, boutiquesy, destination venues. For me it is a


combination of all the channels put together and making sure the


consumer gets the best choice, they are the most discerning than ever.


We have to start delivering it. You will have tiny stores where you


don't take it home on the day and they will deliver it to you. That


sounds like internet shopping with a walk? With a touch and feel, you


have to be still seduced by retail sometimes. One more place where the


computer hasn't helped, this is a message to shopkeepers, just


because there is a software programme where you can design your


own shop front, doesn't mean to say you should. There are experts at


that, that would help. We leave it there. Now, Israeli soldiers shot


dead a 17-year-old Palestinian youth, near the barrier that


separates West Bank towns and villages from areas occupied by


Israel. It comes ahead of next week's Israeli elections, in which


a new right-wing party, Jewish Home is riding high in the poll.


Relations with Palestinians are only one part of the picture for


many Israelis. Some think the biggest threat to the Jewish state


comes from the fact that in large areas of Israel, Jews will become a


minority. We report from the south of the


country, a place not flourishing as the state's founders had hoped. A


wilderness the Prophet Isaiah promised would one day rejoice.


Nearly 5,000 square miles of emptiness, and opportunity, in one


of the world's most crowded countries. The state of Israel, to


exist, its first Prime Minister said, must go south to the Negev.


The desert is a great challenge to us, and we are determined to make


the wilderness blossom again. It can be done. It must be done.


Ben-Gurion set a personal example, he moved to the desert, and


practised his skills as a shepherd. Today, in his old home, a new


generation of Israel's defenders is learning about his vision. The


Negev, he said, was where Jewish creativity and vigour would be


tested. But 60 years on, the soldiers are told, his dream of


five million Jews living and working in the desert hasn't yet


come true. In places the desert is blooming. It is irgated, partly by


water from the Mediterranean, and partly from underground aquafirs


and the Sea of Galilee. The Negev, half of Israel's territory, still


has fewer than 700,000 people, less than a tenth of the country's


population of nearly eight million. It is a patchwork of Jewish and


Arab communities. Could bed do you win Arabs, who was wandered the


Negev for generations outnumber Jews here eventually, raising a


question mark over the future of land that is internationally


recognised as part of Israel. Some young Zionists think that is the


greatest threat Israel faces. there was an empty space where


nobody lives in it, somebody else will go and say this is mine, and


this will be his, because nobody is wanting the land.


The Negev, and Galilee, which together comprise 80% of Israel,


have the country's highest proportion of non-Jewish citizens.


In Galilee, more than half the population is Arab, in the Negev,


the proportion is about a quarter. But Israel says the Negev Bedouin


have the highest population growth in the world, doubling their


numbers every 15 years. If we don't work fast we might find ourselves


in a situation that is on the verge of a catastrophe, and 80% of our


land that is not disputed today. For us it is getting back to what


David Ben-Gurion said, that the real example of the Israeli people


will be in the Negev. Yakir Keren is walking in Ben-Gurion's


footsteps, he's one of a number of growing Israelis leaving the


comfort of the centre of towns and cities to recapture the pioneering


spirit of the early settlers of the To feel the brick and the sand, to


build your own house, to plant your own tree to pave your own path,


this is something that will get connected for you to the ground.


One of the values of the Zionism, it says Hebrew labour, in which we


have to build, with our own hands, the land of Israel. His youth


movement, Ayalim, has been building student villages in the Negev and


northern Israel. They are part of a wider revival of interest in


Zionism and Jewish identity, they also stress that life in the desert


is cheaper and less stressful than in Israel's overcrowded cities.


Ayalim, though still a voluntary organisation, is now backed by the


Israeli Government. They share the aim of juddaiising the Negev and


djudaising the Negev and Galilee. It is not democratic to say, if we


want to secure Israel as the Jewish state we have to populate T


It is the bed do you win who regard them -- Bedouin who regard


themselves as the masters of the desert. Those who hadn't fled when


Israel was established became citizens of the state. Ben-Gurion


noting Jews had once lived in tents, said he wished nothing more than


the Bedouin could gain the best thing they have, knowledge.


Today, in a college on the edge of the Negev, you can find a Bedouin


PHd teaching signs to a mixture of Jews and Arabs from different


backgrounds, a model, you would say of co-existence. When that


chemistry lecturer, Awad Abu Freih, goes back to what he still thinks


of as his home, where he used today live, as well as his father and


grandfather before him, it is just to survey a pile of stones. It was


very big, it was not one, but three, four. Four buildings. I want it cry


when I see that, I want to just remember this field. The cemetery


is all that remains now of his village, which has been demolished


and rebuilt over and over again in the course of a lengthy legal


battle. Over the hill is Rahat, where Dr Awad Abu Freih lives, one


of several towns with modern services that Israel has built,


specially for Bedouin, like many others, he doesn't want to live


there. The new towns have high rates of crime and unemployment.


Awad Abu Freih wants to have a farm, just like David Ben-Gurion did. But


he says Jews find it easier than Bedouin to acquire land for


agriculture. I want to live with sheep, or agricultural life. If I


was Jewish, they would give me and give me the money. But because I am


This is BBC News. The headlines: HMV is in the hands of


called Awad and not Moshi, because administrators. 4,000 jobs are at


I have a Bedouin name, and I'm not risk. The chief executive is


hopeful of a rescue. Jewish the problem here is I am


Traces of horsemeat found in Bedouin. And a few Jews in a big


burgers made for British and Irish supermarkets.


land. To put the Jewish in the A British Airways worker wins a


Negev and concentrate it in a small discrimination claim after being


told not to wear at cross at work. The Home Secretary approves a cut


in staff and salaries for all new Good evening. The chief executive


of HMV says he is convinced there is a future for the business,


land. We apologise for the lost of despite that going into


administration. 4,000 jobs are at subtitles. This is a form of


risk as pressure from supermarkets economic empowerment, together with


and online competitors takes its parallel policies investing in


toll. The high street chain has education and in healthcare, and


stopped accepting gift vouchers. It other aspects of the Bedouin


infrastructure, we hope, will bring was established 90 years ago. The


the bed dough win into -- Bedouin first HMV store. This has been here


into the mainstream. Nearly half for the best part of a century and


the Negev Bedouin live in is still trading on Oxford Street


unrecognised settlements. Which today. They are no longer accepting


gift vouchers. They accepted the money when you buy the vouchers.


That is despicable. A worthless Christmas gift. If they are still


trading and people have paid good money for the vouchers, they should


not be able to do that. HMV said the vouchers were sold in good


faith. The boss also told me that he believes the firm can survive.


I came here four months ago to drive a viable future for the team,


not to shut the business down. I (we apologise for the loss of


subtitles) Ayalim volunteers are trying to forge links between Jews


and Arabs in the Negev. They set up this greenhouse in a Bedouin school,


where they are teaching children the Rudiments of horticulture. It


is a learning process for both sides. For me it is the first time


I get in a Bedouin village, I live here all my life and I haven't got


here. It is a great opportunity for me to get familiar with another


culture that is really, really close to where I live. But other


Jewish activists in the Negev are working with Bedouin in a more


political way. Liberals who believe they are trying to preserve the


country's original values, in the face of what many see as a drift in


public opinion towards the right. This is a meeting hosted by the


Negev co-cyst tense forum, which campaigns -- Negev Coexistence


Forum, which campaigns for greater understanding between the citizens.


Today they are trying to think of ways to help one village threatened


with distinction. Activists like Ofer Dagan, who


spends much of his dime in Bedouin villages, questions the whole basis


of the Government's policy. To say we have to occupy the Bedouin lands


to secure the Jewish state is not true. It may serve the purpose of


making it a Jewish state, for sure it won't be a democratic state. The


danger that is already happening, is the Bedouin society is gradually


losing their faith in the authority of the state. We are starting to


see a few violent incidents between Bedouin people, which are, most of


the time, a very peaceful and patient people, with the


authorities of the state. legacy of Ben-Gurion, who wanted a


Jewish democratic state, at peace with its neighbours, is ambiguous.


After paying homeage at his grave, these young soldiers will return to


their duties on Israel's borders, and in the Occupied Territories.


But many in Israel no longer believe that peace with the


Palestinians will come soon, if ever. That's why, with elections


aing next week, a bigger issue for some are the widening tensions


within the country. Between liberals and a more assertive,


nationalist right-wing, between secular Jews and a rapidly growing


number of ultra orthodox, and enof tablely between Jewish and Arab


citizens. Talking about the Palestinian issue,


pushes away the bigger issues of dealing with things that are


happening inside the society. Until we start dealing with what happens


inside the Israeli society, including issues with Israeli Arabs,


I think the chances of doing something from the outside are


smaller. How can we expect Israeli people to deal with a big issue


like creating two countries here, when they are not even sure that 20


years from today they will have a country of their own.


Government, before they think about the peace between Abbas and between


the Palestinians and the West Bank, or in Gaza between Israel, they


have to make a peace inside. OK, the Jewish state, we were here,


what about us? What about us? Now forget the Palestinians, I don't


want to think about Gaza and the West Bank, I was here, all the time.


I want to stay here. 60 years after Ben-Gurion said the Negev would be


a testing ground, it's wide open -- it's wide open spaces have indeed


become a laboratory for agricultural and scientific


creativity, they are not yet a laboratory for peace. Now, it looks


as if the Government may be in for a prolonged row with teaching


unions in England after the news today it will press ahead with


plans to link pay to performance. The core of the plan is for annual


appraisals of teaching performance to be linked to annual Sally levies,


decided by each school. For most teachers annual pay rises are


automatic. The unions say the plan is a move away from national pay


structures and it will lower morale and make recruitment in some


schools especially difficult. We will debate how it will affect


children with two head teachers. First we examine what is at stake.


For some time now, the rule for new teachers has been where X is


equalising this year's pay, and Y is next year's pay, X is equal to


1.0Xs Y, now that is changing. Pay for new teachers, like that for


their experiences colleagues, will depend on their classroom


performance, and in particular the views of one man or woman, the


headteacher or another member of the school leadership team. That is


welcomed by some teacher. Alistair Wood is only 27, he is already head


of economics at a secondary school. I see myself as a practitioner


developing all the time. You -- I need to improve year on year, there


is no year I wouldn't hope to get better. If there was an instance


where I wasn't getting better, I wouldn't expect to be rewarded, if


my performance of the same, I would expect to be rewarded in a similar


fashion, and not almost get rewarded for not progressing.


year's review quoted a survey of teachers' pay, which showed over


98% of teachers, on the main scale, that is in their first six years in


the profession, receive those annual increases. 45% of teachers


at the top of that main pay scale applied for the upper pay scale,


and over 90% of those were successful.


While we have kept the main pay bands, we have made it much simple


letter to move up them, and we are also -- simpler to move up them,


and allowing senior teachers to be put to the upper band if they want


to remain in the classroom. There is a pay structure for those who


want to teach and not part of the management structure. It is not


just your capacity to teach but your capacity not to reward? It is


the capacity to discriminate, and without the current problem in the


system, which is all you can do is fire somebody. That can't be right.


We have all been through periods in our life where we have been better


or worse and needed professional support. It should be possible to


manage pay across the sector, more sensitively, according to need. Lg


Forget beautiful buildings, it is the quality of teaching that makes


a real difference to how well children learn, does performance-


related-pay improve teaching, the evidence is mixed? We know that one


of the problems with performance- related-pay for teachers, or any


performance measurement for teachers, is teaching to the test.


Essentially you focus on what's measured, what is measured gets


done, and other things get ignored. That means you want, if you are


going to have performance-related- pay, a holistic measure of pupil


attainment, and of pupil performance. That is going to be


difficult to do, but it is not impossible to do that.


Education Secretary, Michael Gove, has said these measures will allow


schools to recruit better teachers. The main teaching union, the NUT,


has said members will be dismayed, and it will be a blow to already


lowered morale, they say performance related pay is


fundamentally inappropriate for teaching. Even those who support


this in principle, say changing attitudes across all schools in


England and Wales, may be tricky. What are the problems? It lies


mainly I think at a leadership level, it needs to be, if these


responsibility and authorities - this authority is given to head


teachers, teachers need to be confident the decision will be


sound and fair. The implementation is complicated. You can't go from a


straight chain from one system to another. It needs to be gradual.


Kenney Frederick is headteacher at George Green's School on the eye of


dogs, and we have the principal of Nunthorpe Academy. Obviously there


are lots of great teachers, it will be astounding to many parents that


98% of teachers get a rise on the main scale whether or not they are


any good? It isn't like, that you have to get through your NQT year,


it is a difficult year, where you are assessed constantly. If you


don't pass that year you don't actually get a job. About But 98%


move on to the next pay scale per year? At the moment there is up to


M6, you can move year after year. And you are not talking about huge


amounts of money. I have over 100 teachers, and you know, the


majority. Isn't it 8% of pay every year that you get as an increase?


don't know the amount, it is not a huge amount. The teacher, when you


go into the classroom you are not a born teacher, you have to learn to


be a teacher and experience, if you are well trained and well developed,


the performance in the classroom will be much better. If it is not.


The point is, the great teach remembers not the problem, what do


you do about the small minority, of not so good teachers, you can get


rid of them. But only 17 out of 400,000 over ten years, that


doesn't work, what do you do to incentivise them, you don't pay


them that much? I don't think the pay makes the difference, teachers


don't come into it for the money, they go into other industries for


that. You come into teaching for different reasons. If you haven't


got a teacher who isn't doing very well, there is an awful lot of work


that goes on. We are very accountable, every teacher and


every school is accountable, everything you do is measured to


every degree. You put a lot of work into people and you help them to


develop, because they have to be good teachers. Let me bring in


Debbie Clinton, you heard that argument and also that the teaching


unions are saying, essentially, far from improving standards, there is


a risk of actually damaging children's education, how do you


see it? I think it is a tremendous opportunity for the profession to


catch up with other professions. One of the concerns that is being


voiced currently, and of also raised during the introductory item,


was the worry over individual power to head teachers and principals.


Pay is awarded by governing bodies and board of directors not


individual head teachers, the wore a concerns that are rightly being


expressed are actually founded in, I think, quite ill-informed facts.


Pay awards are given, ultimately by boards of governors. What do you


make of the argument, we heard it said by the NUT, that it will


dismantle the national pay structure and it will be difficult


for schools in deprived areas who will struing to recruit staff.


These are fears -- struggle to recruit staff, these are legitimate


concerns? The academy movement has been great in England, including in


deprived areas, including mine in Middlesborough. The evidence is


exactly the opposite. When pay freedoms are given to principal,


and boards of governors, the recruitment problems they


previously had are, not immediately removed, but certainly they are


very much helped. Just in practice, what would you be worried about,


presumably you know, and every headteacher knows who is doing well,


who need help, who isn't doing so well, you would be able to make the


decisions who gets more pay and who doesn't, is there something about


the implementation of it that does worry? Lots of issues, who will


teach the hardest to teach youngsters? I would be very worried


that people would be resisting teaching youngsters with special


needs, where it is harder to move them on. Youngsters who are absent


a lot. Youngster who is don't have the support. How do you, for


instance, if you are in a school in a nice middle-class area, where lot


of your students are having one-to- one tuition at home, where the


parents are paying for that, how do you know the affect, is it the


teacher that's made the difference, is it the personal tutor. In a


school such as mine, some of the youngsters will have one-to-one


tuition. It is actually trying to prove, what's the causal affect,


why has that youngster done well. We measure every teacher, every


pupil, at every moment, we know where youngsters are progressing,


with what teacher and so on. We work on that and we try to learn


from each other. The best way to improve teaching, is by teachers


collaborating together, working to the, and sharing good practice. I


think that this could be a difficulty in that, at the moment,


pay is transparent, and I don't want people coming to my school


because I'm going to pay them more. Debbie, it could be, in other words,


devisive in the staff room, is part of it, quite tricky to implement,


what do you make of that? I don't agree with that. Alastair, the


young teacher in the introductory article made the most valid point.


Teachers have an obligation, as do school leaders, by the way, to


continually develop, yes there will be years when one develops really


well, and years where one is less effective at doing that. The most


important point in this for us as a nation and profession, is to


recognise, as the Finns and in sing support they have done, is that we


need to encourage the best possible people to come into our profession,


that is not currently the case, sadly. Thank you. Tomorrow


That's it for tonight, I'm back tomorrow with more in the lead up


to David Cameron's big speech on Europe, planned for Friday.


Good night. Widespread frost tonight and patchy fog to take it


into the morning. Temperature could be as low as minus 10-12. A


relatively quiet day. Snow flurries in the east of Kent. We start


frost-free, but there could be rain later. For much of England it will


be a dry day, some fog lingering around the Thames Valley. Most


having a dry day. Snow flurries limited, eastern Kent could see


them throughout. A few showers running through the English Channel


into south eastern parts of Devon. Rain and sleet on the coast, maybe


snow on the south of Dartmoor. It is only a chance, much of south-


west England to have a bright day, hazy sunshine, early morning rain


in Cornwall. It stays cloudy in Northern Ireland, temperatures only


hoovering around 3-4, don't be -- hovering around 3-4, don't be


As HMV prepares for administration, what is the future for the high street? Plus, the population race in Israel's Negev desert, and should teachers get performance related pay? With Gavin Esler.