14/01/2013 Newsnight


14/01/2013

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Tonight, renegotiation of the European Union, repatriation of

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powers, Brussels bureaucrats. Whatever you may think of the EU,

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what do they think of us? Newsnight has been to hear the German debate.

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They may want to be our closest partner, but British talk of

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renegotiation wins no votes there. The British way seems to be, we

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want our own relationship with the European Union, and the German

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attitude is, now we have to go in more. Also tonight, how long will

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it be until we all have to work until 70 to collect a state pension.

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Today's sweeping pension reforms might require less optimistic

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future planning for all of us. 68 years old I'm in Jamaica with my

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family on holiday, I'm relaxes, that is my retirement place to go.

:00:57.:01:01.

I don't think I should be work. ask the writer of Quartet what the

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future holds for the old. It sounds like a prison. The service lift is

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currently being repaired, but we have the chairlift which will be

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much easier from you. What do I do when I get to the top, ski down!

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The writer of Quartet is here, along with the Pensions Minister,

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along with others to talk about prejudices against those no longer

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young. Timbuktu, the great city of Mali was once considered so remote,

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most of us couldn't find it on a map. Why are we suddenly involved

:01:30.:01:40.
:01:40.:01:41.

in French military operations on what was once the middle of nowhere.

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Good evening. For more than 200 years, from the music of handle and

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the Hannoverian Princes and prugs minces helping, and even Prince

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Albert, even how we celebrate Christmas, the links between

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Britain and Germany have always been strong. The history of the

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last century have shown how strong relationships can haywire. Ahead of

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David Cameron's big speech on Europe, if he does want to

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renegotiate membership and repatriate powers, the one country

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to get on side, Germany. Angela Merkel and David Cameron have

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similar views on Europe, and she wants Britain to take more of a

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role. Where does it leave us on a referendum that could leave us

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outside the EU. We have seen to Germany to find out.

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Hannover once sent its rule Tory run Britain. These days, the

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electors of Hanover are concentrating on polls, Angela

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Merkel's party have a battle on their hands. And at this time they

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would like the old alliance with Britain to be a source of strength

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rather than trouble. There is a British way that seems to be we are

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going our own way and we want to have our own relationship with the

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European Union. The German attitude is we have to go in more, engage

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more and rebuild this European Union, but inside. And we are a

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little bit sad that there are so many voices within the UK who want

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to go out of the union, I guess this is a problem. The CDU's man in

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this state, David McAllister, is proud of his Scottish father, and

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dual Germany-British nationalty. Like -- dual German-British

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nationality, like many of the supporters watching the debate, he

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wants a strong EU, with Britain at its heart, rather than its margins.

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Talk in Britain of renegotiating the relationship with the EU is

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causing real concern in the ruling party here. Leading figures are

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beginning to speak publicly about that. They are worried about more

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political turbulence in the EU, when the focus should be on

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economic regeneration, and about the UK and Germany becoming, in

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some way, estranged. On the outskirts of Hanover, this company

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produces high-quality audio equipment. Family-owned, employing

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more than 2,000 people, it's bucking the recession with rising

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sales. London, and its music industry are key to the business.

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Any threat to that would worry them. The UK, particularly London, are

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considered the centre of the music industry, rock 'n' roll, the

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creative industry, the lifestyle that is born and traded in that

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vivid city, it goes out to the world. If they decide to say, OK,

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yeah, we're no longer part of this, we are more isolated, I think that

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reputation could go down. someone says, well, actually, we

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know that, we want to avoid that, and we would have free trade with

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Germany or the EU as a whole, because that would still be in our

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mutual interest would, that satisfy your concerns? Of course, anything

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that takes barriers down is fine for us, but it is also necessary.

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But I know how complicated it is to negotiate all these different

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specialties we have, but this is very complicated to come to these

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agreements. It is very cumbersome, and it takes a long time,

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particularly in these times, where business is not really, really

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stable, we all need to be very cautious about putting up

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additional obstacles. It is pretty clear that in both politic ka --

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political and business circles there is unease about what Britain

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might be planning in terms of its EU membership. What about public

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opinion, we want to test it in probably the most anglophile of

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German cities, Hamburg. Hamburg University has its radical posters,

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arthouse cinema and free-thinking students. Do they feel Britain

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should be able to define a special status within the EU? Britain sort

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of, in my experience they tend to think, some still do, the only

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union we were ever interested in of the empire and then the

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Commonwealth, and the European Union, it's a continental thing,

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and we don't really want to engage in that. From a continental

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perspective, Britain tends to have this notion of, well, we want to

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have the good parts, but we don't really want the bad parts. I like

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Britain very much, and I would be quite sad if Britain would leave

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the EU, because we think it is a great country. I think it would be

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great to work together with Britain. But I think it is sad that they

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have always been so careful, and never really taken a step into it.

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This is an unusually pro-British city, in part because of the

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historical trading ties, and in part because of an experience that

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might be called a velvet occupation. German's two main news magazines,

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located here in 1945, because the British were the first to give them

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licenses to print. Today, though, one former London correspondent

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cautions the Conservatives against thinking Germans are in the mood to

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support the UK while it negotiates its EU opt-outs. People think that

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Britain has to decide if it wants to be in or out. And there is a

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feeling that it starts to get on people's nerves a bit, you know.

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There are already people who say well if they don't want to be here,

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then they can get out, you know. Let us deal with the crisis then,

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don't disturb the important work of getting it all sorted out. Why

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don't you get out if you don't want to be with us? I think that's a

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dangerous development, because Germany always has needed Britain,

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in negotiations in the EU, because it was a pragmatic partner. After

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the TV debate in Hanover, David McAllister got a raptous welcome

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from his party supporters. If anyone personifies the close

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British and German relationship, surely it is him. But if the

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Conservatives think that a Commons centre right platform, and family

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ties might make Mr McAllister more open to a looser British

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involvement in Europe, they have got another thing coming.

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Germans believe in a strong European Union, we want Britain to

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stay in the European Union, it wouldn't be the same without the

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British. Member-states shouldn't start to opt-out on certain

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political issues. We can only solve our problems together in Europe, in

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a globalised world, that is why we need a strong Britain and a strong

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European Union. McAllister supporters are hoping of winning

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this state, and CDU ones of hoping on to power nationally, when

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federal elections take place in eight or nine months. Far from

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being Germany's ally in the next few months, many Christian

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Democrats fear that a Cameron push for a la carte membership could put

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the countries on a membership collision course. If we agree upon

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a special relationship of the UK to the rest of Europe, we will have a

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blueprint. The next step, for example, Poland or other countries

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will also demand the same. This will be the first type of a melting

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down of the whole union. So far Germany's leaders have been muted

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in their criticism of British Conservatives, and many hark back

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to happier times for the two countries. But the stage seems set

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now for increasing discord between Britain and the EU's dominant

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member. I'm joined now by sir Malcolm

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Rifkind, who was Foreign Secretary, and spent a lot of time in European

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negotiations, and the shadow Foreign Minister, and as Tony

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Blair's Europe Minister is no stranger to these discussions. What

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is feasible in negotiations with people who think the idea is crazy?

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First of all, we have to wait until the Prime Minister has made his

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speech, I don't know what is in that speech any more than anyone

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else does, that is obviously a caveat I have to make. You know, I

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don't think anyone has any illusions that if you try to

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negotiate for major changes in the European Union, it is extremely

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difficult. I was Margaret Thatcher's Europe Minister when she

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started negotiating for a British rebate, surprise, surprise, there

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was not a single all lie, not a single country that supported it.

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These things do take time. But they are possible? They are possible.

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One of the mistakes made by some of the commentators in the film from

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Germany, they implied at the moment that everybody in the European

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Union has the same rights and responsibilities, not true. We have

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major opt-outs already, not just for Britain. We negotiated them as

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we went. You are talking about reliving the past, and saying there

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is some things we did in the past which we agreed to, and we are not

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going to do it now, like immigration policy. Could you

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actually change the immigration policy, or free movement of labour,

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that some of your supporters like, it seems unlikely? Some things

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can't be negotiated away, because you remove the core of European

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competence, and you stop being a member. I would agree with you that

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is not something that could be negotiated in a convincing way.

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That is not the only point at issue. It is the point that many UKIP

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voters, and many Tories leaning to UKIP do want? This is not just a

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question about UKIP, the vast majority of the British public are

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unhappy about the present areas of European confidence in the UK,

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things like the Working Time Directive, there is a range of

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issues about fisheries policy, other matters on justice and home

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affairs, these are negotiable. But I add a caveat, I agree with you,

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the Prime Minister has to be careful not to create expectations

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that cannot be delivered. I think also, members of his party, and

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those who want change, must be careful about rhetoric, the

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European Union is a club of 27 countries, no-one country can

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dictate to others, it will require negotiation and compromise.

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terms of that, now is a good time isn't it? It is not just that

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British people looking at the problems of the eurozone, and how

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difficult it is to get any agreement on that, but there is an

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opportunity. Europe is re-thinking itself, it will probably be more

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closely knit together, we have an opportunity to change our entire

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relationship? Of course change is coming to Europe, it is very far

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from clear that the Germans will push for treaty change. It may be

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non-treaty changes that are used to strengthen the eurozone. But,

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listen, the fundamental problem is this, the gap between what

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Conservative backbenchers are now demanding, and what the rest of

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Europe can tolerate remains achingly wide. The reason the

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speech is being delivered, on Friday now, not on Tuesday, it is

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not for reasons of policy, it is for reasons of politics. The reason

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David Cameron didn't deliver that speech during the whole of 2012 was

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that he was literally rendered speechless by, on one hand, what he

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knew he could deliver in Europe, and on the other hand, what he knew

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that his own backbenchers were deened maing of him. That is why we

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have seen very senior business leaders like sir Richard Branson

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and Martin Sorrell this week is that in order to satisfy and unify

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his party, David Cameron has to set the bar so high, there is no way

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the Germans could agreed. Maybe that is true, but as a matter of

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principle, you presumably accept that one of the great flaws of the

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European project is many voters in lot of countries, not just our's,

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are not brought alone. The democratic deficit it is called,

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they don't feel part of it. One way of solving that is to say this is

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the deal, this is what I can deliver and put it to the British

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voters, you are against that? Cameron can't tell you the deal,

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what he's negotiating for or the circumstances in which he would be

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inviting people to be part of something or not part of something.

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The real challenge is certainly to make change happen in Europe. We,

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as the Labour Party, want to see change. But the way to achieve the

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change, we would argue, is reform within Europe, not the threat of

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exit from Europe. Because if you are perceived to be in the

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departure lounge, then whether it is the German Government, the

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polish Government, certainly the French Government, they will be

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less willing to give you the changes you want, and some of the

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changes that seem to be under contemplation, will be regarded as

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providing a fundamental threat to the single market. Can I in the

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spirit of constructive criticism disagree with Douglas! This is not

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all happening in a vacuum, because of the eurozone crisis, because of

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the proposals of the euromembers for a banking union that could be a

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fiscal union, we are in a period of fundamental change. It is not just

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the UK, only 17 of the 27 countries are in the eurozone, there is a

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fundamental negotiation that is unavoidable as to how the other ten

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countries, ten countries, not one, are going to be able to have their

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rights in the single market and elsewhere fully protected in the

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future. That is about the future, with respect, some of the things

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that some of those within your party want are to go back over the

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past, you could be even more enthralled to those people if you

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win the next election. Because they would be the backbenchers that

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David Cameron would rely on, just as it happened with John Major?

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There is nothing in the Ten Commandments, or in any other

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statute of law that says you cannot repatriate certain powers. Even the

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European Union, although many people will hate it, can make

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concessions, if the case it put convincingly. I accept one

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fundamental point, if there is going to be a realistic prospect of

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successful negotiation, the best chance will be if what Britain

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seeks, if it was conceded, will not harm other states. Now, for example,

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there are many areas of policy where you could put that equation,

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if it is not met, if you are asking to make sacrifices it is less

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likely to be achieved. What if David Cameron delivers 40% or 60%

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of what he wants to secure. If he sets the bar as there will be

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fundamental and catagoric change in Europe, and if we don't secure the

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Europe of my dreams, we will leave the European Union, don't we

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default into a position where your own backbenchers, never mind the

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country, then says we are left with no choice other than exit? I go

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part of the way with you, because certainly I accept that any

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successful negotiation, not just in the European Union, a successful

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negotiation never means you get 100%, even a successful negotiation

:17:17.:17:21.

means you get 80-90% of what you would like, and you make some

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concessions in the areas not so important to you. The Prime

:17:24.:17:28.

Minister should make it clear that compromise has to be part of the

:17:28.:17:34.

negotiation. Do you then recommend exit for the European Union or stay

:17:34.:17:36.

in. What would Labour get starting from a position that they wouldn't

:17:37.:17:40.

put it to the British people, that you are not that irritated or

:17:40.:17:44.

bothered, what would your negotiating position be, much

:17:44.:17:47.

weaker? The way to advance Britain's interests, we would argue,

:17:47.:17:51.

is not narrow repatriation, but broad reform, actually for the

:17:51.:17:55.

reasons just described by Malcolm. Let me give you some examples, we

:17:55.:17:58.

would work for fundamental reform and restraint in the European

:17:59.:18:02.

budget, that is financial reform to start with. Secondly, how is the

:18:02.:18:06.

budget spent, we will continue to argue for fundamental changes in

:18:06.:18:10.

the Common Agricultural Policy. have been arguing that for years?

:18:10.:18:15.

There are issues around democratic legitimacy, I'm speaking a speech

:18:15.:18:19.

this week and I will talk about the steps needed to be taken by the

:18:19.:18:22.

European Parliament and other institution, whether it is

:18:22.:18:25.

financial or fundamental economic change we accept there needs to be

:18:25.:18:29.

change, we think there is a far better and safer way to secure

:18:29.:18:31.

those interests for Britain than standing at the door and putting

:18:31.:18:35.

the gun to the heads. That would be a catastrophe for other countries

:18:35.:18:40.

if we had to get out? It would be a foolish route to take. If we are

:18:40.:18:43.

talking about the real possibilities of negotiation, we

:18:43.:18:47.

already have a Europe a la carte, the doctrinal people in Brussels

:18:47.:18:51.

don't like to admit that. They think that you have a single

:18:51.:18:53.

European Union with everyone having the same responsibilities. You have,

:18:53.:18:58.

as I mentioned earlier, ten or 11 countries that are not in the

:18:58.:19:02.

eurozone. Shen geing, the Irish and the UK are not involved, on defence

:19:02.:19:06.

policy the neutral countries, Sweden and Ireland and so forth do

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not fully participate. So what we are saying, is, yes, in addition to

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that, there are certain specific British interests, no doubt there

:19:13.:19:16.

will be other countries that will have certain and specific interests,

:19:16.:19:22.

but as long as the core xetten sis of the core European Union are not

:19:22.:19:25.

disturbed, of which the single market is the most important. Then

:19:25.:19:28.

you can create a diverse Europe which the peoples of Europe as a

:19:28.:19:32.

whole, not just the British people, will be comfortable with.

:19:32.:19:37.

Two of the most critically regarded films on release at the moment are

:19:37.:19:43.

about old age, Quartet is about some of the surprises growing old

:19:43.:19:47.

will be. As movie makers wake up to the idea that an older audience has

:19:47.:19:51.

money to spend, the Government has woken up to the fact that not many

:19:51.:19:54.

of us are thinking about where the money will come from. Today's

:19:54.:19:58.

massive pension reform is a start, the Institute for Fiscal Studies

:19:58.:20:01.

suggests in the long-term it will mean a pension cut in pension

:20:01.:20:05.

entitlements for most of us. Is all this another sign that before long

:20:05.:20:09.

the retirement age will hit 70 or more, a forecast for the retirement

:20:09.:20:14.

age of 68 was included in today's White Paper. Paul Mason has been

:20:14.:20:19.

contemplating our greying future. Work, get used to it, for a long

:20:19.:20:25.

time. And saving. Today's radical pensions rewrite brings clarity to

:20:25.:20:29.

a system that has become impossible to predict. But by the mid-century,

:20:29.:20:34.

for many people, it will be the wrong kind of clarity. At present,

:20:34.:20:38.

there are three teirs of taxpayer funding to the pensions system.

:20:38.:20:45.

There is the basic state pension, topped up to �142.70 a week, with

:20:45.:20:48.

means-tested credits. There is the second state pension, worth, on

:20:48.:20:51.

average, about �18 a week at present, and based on earnings.

:20:51.:20:55.

People in company pensions get tax relieve, and by contracting out of

:20:55.:20:59.

the second state pension, boost their savings by paying less

:20:59.:21:03.

national insurance. Today's White Paper consolidates everything into

:21:03.:21:08.

a basic pension of �144 a week in today's money. The second state

:21:08.:21:11.

pension is gradually abolished. More people will qualify for the

:21:11.:21:14.

full amount, more women, more of the self-employed, but they will

:21:14.:21:19.

have to work for 35 years until they claim it, and for many people

:21:19.:21:24.

that will mean work until you are 68. I think this is a really good

:21:24.:21:27.

news day for pensions, it means that for the first time people will

:21:27.:21:31.

know what they are going to get from the state, it means that

:21:31.:21:35.

finally it pays to save, and people will know that what they are going

:21:35.:21:38.

to get from the state will be �144 a week, and what they save on top

:21:38.:21:42.

of that will be their's and won't be means-tested away. But vox pop

:21:42.:21:47.

Britain is not tuned into the niceties. I don't know that I will

:21:47.:21:51.

actually be, you can't do my work when you are 68. You are either

:21:51.:21:55.

going to have to retire a pauper or work until you die, it is that

:21:55.:21:59.

simple. You know, how old do they want us to be, it is all about

:21:59.:22:03.

saving money and they want you to work more instead of retiring and

:22:03.:22:08.

having a peaceful time and enjoying the rest of your life. At 68 years

:22:08.:22:11.

old I see myself relaxing in the Caribbean, enjoying the life that I

:22:11.:22:16.

have had. I think it is a bit unfair for them to make people of

:22:16.:22:20.

that age work, I couldn't think of my grandparents working now, it is

:22:20.:22:23.

so unfair. The facts driving the change are stark, we are living

:22:23.:22:28.

long he, by 2050, a man retiring will expect to live for 25 years on

:22:28.:22:31.

his pension. But it is also the decline of company pensions that is

:22:31.:22:35.

forcing the Government to draw sharper lines between what the

:22:35.:22:39.

state provides and what you provide yourself. 30 years ago half of

:22:39.:22:43.

people in work, at least half of people in work, were members of an

:22:43.:22:46.

employer pension scheme that was going to give them a pension

:22:46.:22:50.

related to their salary, now very few people in the private sector in

:22:50.:22:53.

that position, quite a lot in the public sector in that position, the

:22:53.:22:56.

state was topping up everyone else to match those occupational schemes,

:22:57.:23:00.

now those occupational schemes largely don't exist, the state is

:23:00.:23:04.

no longer topping anyone else to match it, it is leaving everyone

:23:04.:23:08.

pretty much to do their own work to get their own pension. While, in

:23:08.:23:12.

the short-term, the bill brings a sharp jolt of fairness in terms of

:23:13.:23:15.

women and self-employed, in the long-term, the percentage of those

:23:16.:23:22.

who lose out, coloured blue in this graph, rapidly increases, until by

:23:22.:23:25.

2060, the majority are worse off than they could have been under

:23:25.:23:30.

today's system. You have to work longer, pay more, and get less. It

:23:30.:23:40.

is a con-trick. Why? Because it is 35 years, you have got to pay more,

:23:40.:23:46.

and you have to work until you are 68 to get it. By the time this

:23:46.:23:49.

generation are holding their retirement raef, the burden of

:23:49.:23:54.

paying for -- raves, the burden of paying for old age will have

:23:54.:23:56.

shifted decisively towards individual saving. Bit by bit,

:23:56.:23:59.

successive Governments are putting into place a new design for ageing

:23:59.:24:03.

in the 21st sent treatment it is based on saving more, and working

:24:03.:24:11.

longer. After today, a retirement age of 68 looks likely, the problem

:24:11.:24:15.

is, the jobs and wages of the rising generation might not support

:24:15.:24:20.

it. It has always been the case that people at work are paying for

:24:20.:24:25.

a previous generation. Now, today we have got a situation where

:24:25.:24:29.

people are getting very low wages, they are on short-term contracts,

:24:29.:24:33.

they are on part-time work. They themselves can't manage, and they

:24:33.:24:40.

don't pay it in enough, in order to pay for this, the benefits and the

:24:40.:24:44.

pensions. I don't know how they are going to pay enough for themselves

:24:44.:24:52.

to get this over the 35-year period. Right now, there are for every two

:24:52.:24:57.

pensioners, seven people of working age. By 2050 that number falls to

:24:57.:25:02.

five. It's the iPod generation that will then have to live on the

:25:02.:25:05.

system designed today. With the review of the retirement age every

:25:05.:25:13.

five years, the age of 68 might not be the end of it. The Pensions

:25:13.:25:18.

Minister, Steve Webb is here, along with the economist, Mariana

:25:19.:25:22.

Mazzucato, Michelle Mitchell of Age UK, and the Oscar-winning

:25:22.:25:25.

playwright, Ronald Harwood, who has written, among many things, Quartet,

:25:25.:25:30.

a film about growing old, quite disgracefully. First of all, you

:25:30.:25:33.

made a play by saying these are huge reforms today and they will

:25:33.:25:38.

simplify the system, which everyone agrees, you also said that there

:25:38.:25:40.

will be winners and loser, most people will be winners, in the

:25:40.:25:45.

long-term most of us, according to the IFS, will be losers. Over the

:25:45.:25:49.

first few decades, a pretty long time, far more people gain than

:25:49.:25:53.

lose, many women, many self- employed people, many lower earners,

:25:53.:25:57.

but higher earners will get less. Over the middle of the century and

:25:57.:26:01.

beyond, it will be true, as the chart showed, from our publication,

:26:01.:26:05.

we will spend more of our share of national income on pensions, but

:26:05.:26:08.

not much more. We are slowing the rate of growth, that is all we are

:26:08.:26:11.

doing. Slowing the rate of growth of spending on pensions. Is then

:26:11.:26:15.

the message to all of us, we will have to make private provision, and

:26:15.:26:18.

there are some who criticise the Government for its raid on private

:26:18.:26:22.

provision of pensions, and also that we will have to work longer

:26:22.:26:26.

until 70 or 72 or something like that. By the time this kicks in?

:26:26.:26:30.

Certainly working longer is part of the mix. One of the things we have

:26:30.:26:33.

done in the last few years abolish the law that allowed people to be

:26:33.:26:37.

sacked for being 65, until a couple of years ago it was legal to sack

:26:37.:26:42.

someone for that. Longer working years part of the mix, a firm

:26:42.:26:47.

foundation from the state is part of the mix, but more private

:26:47.:26:51.

savings. Today's 20-year-old were automatic enrolled in work place

:26:51.:26:54.

pensions, in decades to come they will have a state floor and a

:26:54.:26:58.

pension of their own. When we talk about the ageing population, do we

:26:58.:27:02.

have to re-think that what it means to be old, what do you think is

:27:02.:27:05.

old? We have to transform the way we think about the ageing

:27:05.:27:10.

population. There is more over 65s than there are 18-year-olds. And

:27:10.:27:14.

the fastest proportion of the population that is growing is over

:27:14.:27:18.

85s, policy makers are often 20, 30 years behind. We are going to have

:27:18.:27:22.

to reinvent the way we think about retirement, pensions, work,

:27:22.:27:26.

attitudes, and really importantly, health and social care. Because

:27:26.:27:29.

older people have a huge contribution to make, and

:27:29.:27:32.

journalists and politicians often frame this debate in terms of

:27:32.:27:36.

burden, in terms of dependency, and yet, there is a massive

:27:36.:27:38.

contribution that older people want to make, and want to stay

:27:39.:27:41.

independent and in control of their own lives. You may have a view, and

:27:41.:27:46.

the rest of us may have a view of what "old" means, but employers

:27:46.:27:51.

also have a view, it might be quite different. If you are 65 or 07 you

:27:52.:27:55.

might think you have another five or ten years in you, employers

:27:55.:28:00.

might not think that? As has been the case with the BBC. There has

:28:00.:28:04.

been big challenges about seeing the experience and skills that orld

:28:04.:28:07.

workers bring. Many want to stay in the work place longer, those that

:28:07.:28:13.

can and are able and want to stay, some employers don't recognise

:28:13.:28:17.

those skills. Most employers or some? We have some good examples,

:28:17.:28:20.

progressive employers, many in retail, Sainsbury's for example,

:28:20.:28:25.

are planning actively for a diverse work force. It is about ensuring

:28:25.:28:29.

when you are in your 50s and 60s you get access to training. One of

:28:29.:28:33.

the big challenges for the over 50s, is when you are made redundant, you,

:28:33.:28:37.

more than any other age group, find it harder to get back into work.

:28:37.:28:41.

Because of a range of factor, sometimes it is confidence, it is

:28:41.:28:45.

also about age discrimination, which still exists. Where do you

:28:45.:28:48.

stand on this, it is not just older people looking for jobs, it is lots

:28:48.:28:51.

of people looking for jobs, including 18-year-olds looking to

:28:52.:28:56.

get into the labour market, they presumably want those of us who are

:28:56.:29:02.

old Tory move out and get out of the way? The dynamics you talked

:29:02.:29:08.

about have changed over time, when we had a stakeholder modern

:29:08.:29:11.

capitalism, there was no investment in human capital formation,

:29:11.:29:15.

training, research and development, increase league as we have had more

:29:15.:29:17.

financialised companies, and companies based more on their

:29:17.:29:21.

shareholder value model, we have had less actual company input into

:29:21.:29:25.

these processes that actually create high-paying, stable jobs, in

:29:25.:29:28.

the end what you really need for a successful pension system is

:29:28.:29:32.

exactly that. The amount of jobs, you need lots of jobs that are

:29:32.:29:36.

stable jobs that pay good wages. Currently the problem is, in this

:29:36.:29:39.

country we don't necessarily, currently, but this is more about

:29:39.:29:42.

if you want a short-term issue have a growth strategy, an industrial

:29:42.:29:45.

strategy, which will actually guarantee those kinds of jobs. If

:29:45.:29:49.

you think about the other two pieces of news that came out this

:29:49.:29:53.

week, one that NHS private providers are actually asking for

:29:53.:29:56.

massive tax cuts, and you know, because they want to be treated

:29:56.:30:00.

like the NHS, but they are not like the NHS, these are profit-seeking

:30:00.:30:03.

companies, it is quite interesting that we actually have a Government

:30:03.:30:07.

that is willing to even engage in that debate, that these companies

:30:07.:30:11.

also become tax evaders themselves, and this is some how part of a

:30:11.:30:15.

legitimate debate. You talked about stable employment, nobody expects

:30:15.:30:18.

people to have 40 years and a gold watch at the end of it. What will

:30:18.:30:22.

happen to people as they get older, they will have to move on and be

:30:22.:30:26.

retrained. At that point, when you are 50 or 55 or 60, whatever it is,

:30:26.:30:30.

that is when you lose out and drop out isn't it, or many people do?

:30:30.:30:33.

This is where policy can come in, instead of having a patchy pension

:30:33.:30:37.

policy, what you really need to do line it up with the policy that

:30:37.:30:40.

also puts more demands on private companies that are currently

:30:40.:30:45.

getting away with murder. The other big news I was talking about.

:30:45.:30:49.

have one or two views on this, this question about private companies

:30:49.:30:53.

getting away with murd, they do move people on when they get to a -

:30:53.:30:56.

- murder, they do move people on when they get to a certain age?

:30:56.:31:01.

big he was change we brought in last year, is people with no

:31:01.:31:05.

mention and don't work for firms where they do provide them, now

:31:05.:31:09.

they have a right to a pension with a work place employer. That is a

:31:09.:31:12.

sea change, and against the grain of deregular lays, we need to get

:31:12.:31:15.

people into saving on top of the state. You were an inspiration,

:31:15.:31:19.

doing not too badly for someone who is beyond the traditional

:31:19.:31:23.

retirement age? I'm 78, Dame Maggie Smith is a month younger than me,

:31:23.:31:28.

she would like me to say that, tomorrow Courtney is a couple of

:31:28.:31:33.

years younger than me, Pauline Colin, Billy Connelly, all at the

:31:33.:31:37.

top of their form in their 70s or more. What Michelle said is

:31:37.:31:41.

absolutely right, we discard the old. Think of all the knowledge and

:31:41.:31:45.

wisdom that goes with retirement. I don't know how the BBC functions,

:31:45.:31:48.

but I bet they don't have anybody helping people who retire. It is a

:31:48.:31:52.

hell of a shock. Suddenly to stop work. Not to get up in the morning

:31:52.:31:57.

and know where you are going, why aren't they helped to find things.

:31:57.:32:02.

There are people, I don't know how old you are Gavin, you are probably

:32:02.:32:06.

25. Even younger! In terms it of the energy of people who are older,

:32:06.:32:10.

and in terms of young people saying why don't these guys and women get

:32:10.:32:15.

out of my way and make way for me? That is a very good point. I have

:32:15.:32:18.

younger children, they have difficulties finding jobs, work, of

:32:18.:32:22.

course they want the old to move out, that doesn't mean that old

:32:22.:32:26.

must be discarded. They can be used. The wisdom, the knowledge, the

:32:26.:32:31.

experience ought to be used. How do you channel that? Look, when you

:32:31.:32:35.

look at the literature post-Second World War, and you were talking

:32:35.:32:38.

about women being pushed out of the Labour market when the veterans

:32:38.:32:42.

were coming back from World War II, we were told then that there

:32:42.:32:45.

weren't enough jobs. I think our understanding of economic policy

:32:45.:32:49.

has moved on, there isn't a credible theory which says a

:32:49.:32:52.

younger person has to take the place of an older person's job, it

:32:52.:32:56.

is about having a clear growth strategy, about having highly-paid

:32:56.:33:01.

jobs, but also having appropriate training at all ages. It is about

:33:01.:33:04.

changing the culture, and changing how we think about all these

:33:04.:33:08.

things? The single biggest change, 65 has been a spell, male pension

:33:08.:33:13.

age has been 65 for a century. That is incredible when you think what

:33:13.:33:17.

has changed in the century. That will change in a few years time,

:33:17.:33:22.

once there is no 65, that is moving on. Watching the football, Alex

:33:22.:33:27.

faringson is running the top team, allegedly, in the country! He's 71.

:33:27.:33:31.

Just changing the way we think about it. Would you accept that is

:33:31.:33:35.

very unusual, one of the unions of today was pointing out, with these

:33:35.:33:39.

reforms, if you are relying on the Government, �144 a week will still

:33:39.:33:43.

be below the poverty line, in other words, you cannot rely on

:33:43.:33:46.

Government provision is what they are saying? Also we have a

:33:46.:33:50.

Government budget that is being undermined by, and it is not a

:33:50.:33:54.

question of a legal tax evasion, but legal tax evasion, which is

:33:54.:33:57.

what I was getting to before, you don't have a confident Government

:33:57.:34:00.

trying to increase the amount of money that the Government has to

:34:00.:34:03.

spend and to co-finance these pensions. We have decreasing amount

:34:03.:34:06.

of tax that is these large companies that used to be the

:34:06.:34:10.

providers of these well-paying table jobs, actually putting less

:34:10.:34:15.

into the system themselves, both in terms of how much they are actually

:34:15.:34:18.

investing in areas like human capital and training, but the

:34:18.:34:22.

amount they see they are responsible for, in terms of

:34:22.:34:26.

providing back to the state which funds the education, roads,

:34:26.:34:29.

transport, the technology that they depend on to become successful.

:34:29.:34:32.

This should be part of the pensions debate. Do you actually think our

:34:33.:34:37.

culture has begun to change. The very fact your film got made, does

:34:37.:34:42.

suggest things have changed a bit? We weren't pioneers, there have

:34:42.:34:47.

been films what is it called "the grey pound", she told me earlier.

:34:47.:34:52.

But it is now an accepted force in society. But we in the arts, I'm

:34:52.:34:58.

sorry to boast about this, always drive both the economy and the

:34:58.:35:01.

politicians. We change the moral complexion, and we are doing that

:35:01.:35:07.

now, and they are going to have to listen very hard. Are you listening

:35:07.:35:12.

very hard? That is the question, most of us, most of the time, hate

:35:12.:35:15.

to think about pensions any way, we hate to think about getting old,

:35:15.:35:18.

despite what you say, and all these advantages, we hate to think about

:35:18.:35:22.

it, we certainly don't want to have to plan for it? And Ronald's

:35:22.:35:27.

message is so helpful, a change in attitudes towards older pom. We

:35:27.:35:30.

recognise 20-year-olds don't think about pensions, that is why the law

:35:30.:35:33.

is they have to be put in, free to opt-out, many just get on with it,

:35:33.:35:37.

they will have it taken. We visited some supermarket workers put into

:35:37.:35:40.

the pension scheme, they all said they will stay in. They were

:35:40.:35:43.

relatively young, relatively low wage, they said they know they need

:35:43.:35:48.

a pension really. Young people we have to help with that, older

:35:48.:35:53.

workers, McDonalds stores that employ older workers are more

:35:53.:35:58.

profitable than McDonald's branches that don't. I will give awe little

:35:58.:36:02.

warning, all of you children here, old age will take you by surprise,

:36:02.:36:06.

and suddenly you need your pension. I'm a privileged member of society,

:36:06.:36:10.

I'm terribly well paid, and have been for a very long time. People

:36:10.:36:14.

who work on a regular basis are taken by surprise, they are 65 have

:36:14.:36:19.

they enough to live on? Do you accept that simplification of the

:36:19.:36:21.

system is absolutely necessary, that has at least been achieved,

:36:21.:36:25.

and there will always be winners and losers, there will be some

:36:25.:36:30.

grumbling, this is only the beginning of quite a long process

:36:30.:36:33.

in reforming the pensions system and the way we think? The children

:36:33.:36:38.

born now a number will live to be over 100. I will be living

:36:38.:36:41.

hopefully significantly longer than my mother and grandmother, the

:36:41.:36:45.

world is changing at a hugely rapid scale. One of the things we

:36:45.:36:48.

shouldn't forget. There is a positive story about ageing and

:36:48.:36:52.

getting older, which is we are living longer and we want to work

:36:52.:36:57.

and make contributions. We cannot forget the people who can't make

:36:57.:37:00.

the contributions and can't work because they have a disability,

:37:00.:37:04.

they are caring, or there isn't work in the area they live, who

:37:04.:37:08.

don't get food quality care, that aren't getting access to the NHS.

:37:08.:37:12.

We have to sit back and also say, as well as the opportunities the

:37:12.:37:16.

cultural change and attitude change, what are our values as a society,

:37:16.:37:20.

what is the minimum level of support, of care, of service that

:37:20.:37:23.

we will give. That minimum has to be higher than we are currently

:37:23.:37:26.

getting at the moment. We will leave it there, thank you all very

:37:26.:37:30.

much. Now the City of Timbuktu in Mali

:37:30.:37:34.

was once thought so foreign to our interests that its name was used to

:37:34.:37:37.

suggest that a society and culture as far removed from Britain as the

:37:37.:37:40.

moon. Now British military aircraft and advisers are helping a French

:37:40.:37:44.

mission to try to throw back Islamist extremist rebels who have

:37:44.:37:47.

taken over a large slice of malli. The fear of the country being used

:37:47.:37:53.

as a major base and training camp for Al-Qaeda and associates is part

:37:53.:37:57.

of the equation. One extremist supporter comments that France has

:37:57.:38:01.

opened the gates of hell. French newspapers worry that going in is

:38:01.:38:05.

always easier than going out. We will hear from the former French

:38:05.:38:08.

Foreign Minister in a moment. First this report.

:38:08.:38:11.

Another French intervention in another former African colony.

:38:11.:38:19.

France now has more than 500 troops in Mali. Its war planes have

:38:19.:38:21.

intensified their bombardment of Islamist rebel targets in the north

:38:21.:38:24.

of the country. They are countering, francais, a growing extremist

:38:24.:38:34.

threat. Not just to the region, but also to Europe. For French

:38:34.:38:39.

President, Francois Hollande, whose rating has plummeted since election

:38:39.:38:43.

last year, it is a coup so far. Francois Hollande was widely seen

:38:43.:38:52.

by some supporters as a rather, emindecisive person, forever

:38:52.:38:59.

consulting and deliberating. A sort of Obama in his early days. The

:38:59.:39:03.

decision to intervene in Mali, which was sudden, forceful and

:39:03.:39:09.

which appears to have been effective, has instantaneously

:39:09.:39:13.

changed President Hollande's image. Now Britain's endorsed the

:39:13.:39:17.

operation, sending transport planes to help. The first was grounded

:39:17.:39:26.

today with a technical falut fault. Mali occupies a huge space, mostly

:39:26.:39:31.

desert, at the heart of Africa. Islamists now control half the

:39:32.:39:35.

country, including the famous city of Timbuktu. Last week France

:39:36.:39:41.

helped malian forces throw rebels back from Konna, on the road to the

:39:41.:39:46.

capital. Today in fierce founting the Islamists counter-attacked and

:39:46.:39:51.

taking a town. The rebels in Mali are a variety of groups, whose

:39:51.:39:56.

allowances shift like The Sahara sands. The famous blue-robed onadms

:39:57.:40:01.

of the desert have been fighting for years for their own independent

:40:01.:40:10.

secular state in Mali. But a multinational Islamist group, has

:40:10.:40:13.

now taken over much of the north, they are called Defenders of the

:40:13.:40:21.

Faith. It includes ve various African Jihadies, it includes

:40:21.:40:25.

weaponry left over from the wars. They are good fighters, trained

:40:25.:40:28.

some of them against the Americans in Afghanistan. Some of them have

:40:28.:40:35.

been working for the Gadaffis for many years. These very well trained

:40:35.:40:38.

soldier, very tough. They are well equipped. They normally would fight

:40:38.:40:43.

a war of movement, I think, but there are stories around that they

:40:43.:40:49.

have been digging a huge base in the mountains in the extreme north-

:40:49.:40:57.

east of Mali. They have captured, among the things left behind, they

:40:57.:41:03.

captured an enormous amount of road making machine, they have been and

:41:03.:41:09.

using it to dig another Tora Bora. In towns like Timbuktu, who had

:41:09.:41:16.

their own form of Sufi Islam, they have destroyed shrines and imposed

:41:16.:41:23.

strict Sharia Law, including amputations for offenders. It is

:41:23.:41:27.

Al-Qaeda in the Maghreb that worries the west more. First and

:41:27.:41:34.

foremost so far they haven't shown the ability or even intention to

:41:34.:41:37.

directly strike in the European countries origins the west. But

:41:37.:41:40.

there is the potential for them to do it in the future, if they decide

:41:41.:41:46.

to step up their ambitions, and so to become much more active, in that

:41:46.:41:51.

ens is, and becoming maybe one of the -- in that sense, and becoming

:41:51.:41:56.

one of the major Al-Qaeda affiliates. The Government called

:41:56.:42:01.

for troops from neighbouring west African states in malicious they

:42:01.:42:03.

will start arriving earlier than expected. France was only supposed

:42:04.:42:10.

to help with training and logistic, not playing the leading part it is

:42:10.:42:14.

now undertaking. Is it just repeating its post colonial role.

:42:14.:42:18.

Until the end of the 1950s France owned a vast swathe of Africa, it

:42:18.:42:23.

never really went away, even after independence. French forces have

:42:23.:42:28.

intervened following coups, unrest or civil war, in state including

:42:28.:42:32.

Gabon, the central African Republic, the Republic of Congo, and Ivory

:42:32.:42:36.

Coast, in Chad an operation in 1968, to put down the rebellion, has

:42:36.:42:41.

ended up lasting, on and off, ever since. Could the same thing happen

:42:41.:42:46.

now in Mali? The danger for France, as with so many western

:42:46.:42:51.

interventions in overseas conflicts, is that it may get bogged down in

:42:51.:42:55.

an operation whose aims aren't clear. If west African troops are

:42:55.:42:59.

unable on their own to achieve the UN Security Council's ultimate aim

:42:59.:43:03.

of restoring state authority, throughout Mali, then French

:43:03.:43:07.

involvement may stretch from weeks into months. Already defence

:43:07.:43:11.

sources are saying that the number of French troops in the country may

:43:12.:43:18.

soon increase from 550 to 2,500, and they are warning of a long

:43:18.:43:23.

foreign military operation there. Unfortunately I have been told that

:43:23.:43:26.

our guest, the former French Foreign Minister has been unable to

:43:26.:43:30.

make it to our studio in Paris, which is a pity. Let's have a look

:43:30.:43:39.

The Times has a lovely picture of the weather with horse riding in

:43:39.:43:47.

the countryside. But the main story is Europe.

:43:47.:43:50.

It says that David Cameron will light a five-year fuse under

:43:50.:43:56.

Britain's place in Europe is how it puts it. The Independent has

:43:56.:43:59.

pictures of Jodie foster in the Golden Globe, acknowledging for the

:43:59.:44:05.

first time that she's gay, the main story is about Mali l the top brass

:44:05.:44:11.

of Number Ten -- Mali. The top brass at Number Ten say avoid Mali.

:44:11.:44:17.

It has the pensions story on the right-hand side too. The Telegraph

:44:17.:44:21.

has a lovely picture of the weather, with a stag under the snow in

:44:21.:44:27.

Derbyshire. But this main story is dementia sufferers abandoned, the

:44:27.:44:33.

Health Secretary says thousands struggle on without help, because

:44:33.:44:37.

doctors refuse to test. 500,000 people to be offered breast cancer

:44:37.:44:47.
:44:47.:45:12.

drugs. That is all for tonight. I Good evening, still a few snow

:45:12.:45:15.

flurries tonight across eastern counties of England and Scotland.

:45:15.:45:18.

Elsewhere icey conditions to start the day. A few showers to start

:45:18.:45:22.

western parts of Wales and south- west England. Whilst the snow

:45:22.:45:25.

flurries continue through some eastern areas, for many the morning

:45:25.:45:30.

cloud breaks up, bright conditions through the afternoon. Temperatures

:45:30.:45:34.

freezing through north of England. Lincolnshire, East Anglia, parts of

:45:34.:45:38.

Kent, continue to see some sleet, a bit of snow inland. After a great

:45:38.:45:42.

start skies will brighten across other parts of the south-east. The

:45:42.:45:45.

south west and Wales sunny spells through the afternoon. A few

:45:45.:45:49.

showers still around, maybe running into Devon and Cornwall, that could

:45:49.:45:52.

produce snow over the hills. For most a dry and bright day in store

:45:52.:45:56.

after an icey start, icey start in Northern Ireland, again a lot of

:45:56.:45:59.

dry and sunny weather to come throughout the day. For Scotland

:45:59.:46:04.

the morning cloud will break up. Best of sunshine within the west,

:46:04.:46:11.

the morning snow flurries gradually dissipate in Edinburgh, the day

:46:11.:46:14.

will finish brighter we could continue with the sun shine.

:46:14.:46:19.

Temperatures really do struggle to get above freezing as is the case

:46:19.:46:23.

for Wales, we have a cold, Eastleigh flow, starting to push in.

:46:23.:46:28.

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