Browse content similar to 18/01/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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These are the lucky ones, survivors of the kidnap and of an ambitious | :00:15. | :00:21. | |
military rescue in The Sahara. won't feel 100% happy until I'm in | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
the UK and see my family. Then I will be happy. But up to 30 are | :00:24. | :00:31. | |
still unaccounted for, a third of them Britons. Today, as kit | :00:31. | :00:36. | |
napeders demanded their ranson, the Prime Minister laid bare the | :00:36. | :00:40. | |
gravity of the threat. We face large and extension terrorist | :00:40. | :00:48. | |
threat from a group of extremists, based in different parts of the | :00:48. | :00:54. | |
world who want to damage our interests and way of life. We will | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
discuss this and how we are prepared to meet it. Europe is | :00:58. | :01:04. | |
trying to tie us up with regulation and the competitive edge we had | :01:04. | :01:08. | |
will be gone. It is 40 years since we had a say on Europe, is it time | :01:08. | :01:11. | |
for the politicians to stop talking and the rest of the country to | :01:11. | :01:20. | |
start. Good evening, the news from Algeria | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
is bad tonight, but not, it seems, as bad as the British Government | :01:23. | :01:28. | |
had first believed. The original number of Britons unaccounted for | :01:28. | :01:32. | |
stood at 30 last night t now looks to be closer to ten. After a | :01:32. | :01:36. | |
terrorist take that plunged many of the world's capital's into crisis | :01:36. | :01:41. | |
mode, dozens of foreign nationals still missing or being held at the | :01:41. | :01:44. | |
Saharan gas plant. Today the Algerian Government defended its | :01:44. | :01:48. | |
unilateral military operation, as the true scale of the attempted | :01:48. | :01:52. | |
rescue mission became clear. It claimed 650 hostages had been freed, | :01:52. | :01:55. | |
the vast majority of whom were Algerian. Tonight, as the Prime | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
Minister talked of the growing threat in ungoverned places, we ask | :01:58. | :02:05. | |
how much of this region is in trouble. | :02:05. | :02:11. | |
Three days into the crisis at the sprawling gas plant, deep in | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
Algerian desert, it is still hard to piece together the sequence of | :02:15. | :02:23. | |
events. It is not clear if the hostage takers, Katibat | :02:23. | :02:28. | |
Moulathamine were in the main plant or the residential complex. On the | :02:28. | :02:31. | |
first day of the siege they demanded safe passage out with the | :02:31. | :02:36. | |
hostages, the Algerians said no. A hostage were Belfast, who later | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
escaped, phoned journalists, possibly under duress, to say the | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
Algerian army had already opened fire on the complex. The situation | :02:44. | :02:48. | |
is really deteriorating, we have contacted all the respective | :02:48. | :02:50. | |
embassies from different nationalties, to have the military | :02:50. | :02:55. | |
withdrew, the message doesn't seem to be getting through to the | :02:55. | :02:58. | |
military, because just up until recently until ten minutes ago they | :02:58. | :03:03. | |
were firing into the camp. It was yesterday the Algerian Government | :03:03. | :03:07. | |
told Downing Street it had to act immediately. It is not clear what | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
triggered the subsequent assault, either the Algerian army first | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
stormed the residential complex, or the fighting started when the | :03:15. | :03:17. | |
kidnappeders tried to move their hostages, in five jeeps. Their | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
prisoners were bound, gagged, and had explosives round their necks. | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
Certainly those vehicles were attacked by helicopter gunships, it | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
is thought three were destroyed, one blew itself up. Some passengers | :03:29. | :03:34. | |
escaped from the fifth. The remaining militants, and some | :03:34. | :03:39. | |
hostages are now said to be holed up in the main gas treatment plant. | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
With the crisis still unresolved, the Prime Minister made clear today | :03:43. | :03:46. | |
his frustration at the way the Algerian operation began. During | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
the course of Thursday morning, the Algerian forces mounted an | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
operation. Mr Speaker, we were not informed of this in advance, I was | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
told by the Algerian Prime Minister while it was taking place. He said | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
that the terrorists had tried to flee, that they judged there to be | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
an immediate threat to the lives of the hostages, and had felt obliged | :04:05. | :04:08. | |
to respond. When I spoke to the Algerian Prime Minister, later last | :04:08. | :04:13. | |
night, he told me that this first operation was complete, but this is | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
a large and complex site, and they are still pursuing terrorists, and | :04:17. | :04:22. | |
possibly some of the hostages in other areas of the site. Algeria's | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
a country where oil and gas facilities have been largely safe | :04:26. | :04:29. | |
until now, for the global hydrocarbon industry, this has been | :04:29. | :04:35. | |
a big shock. It did looks a if Algeria was modernising, becoming | :04:35. | :04:38. | |
more stable, some what more secular, and not a place where | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
fundamentalism was going to take hold. The companies have been able | :04:42. | :04:47. | |
to work there very successfully. They will now be surprised that | :04:47. | :04:51. | |
this sort of incident can occur there. They will be looking very | :04:51. | :04:56. | |
carefully, and they will be reassessing the balance of risk and | :04:56. | :05:03. | |
reward. The industry does not like to put staff at risk, and very | :05:03. | :05:08. | |
rarely does. This suggests there is a new situation in the region. | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
of course, Islamist militants in North Africa don't just threaten | :05:11. | :05:16. | |
western interests and personnel in the region, they pose a terrorist | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
risk to Europe itself. The terrible events of this week have woken us | :05:20. | :05:25. | |
up to a danger long growing, but long underestimated in North Africa. | :05:25. | :05:31. | |
The question now, how can the west most effectively engage with the | :05:31. | :05:34. | |
region, economically, diplomatically, militarily, to make | :05:34. | :05:44. | |
:05:44. | :05:45. | ||
it safer for its own people and for or is it better for Africans to | :05:45. | :05:47. | |
deal with African problems. The region is a patchwork of states, | :05:47. | :05:51. | |
with varying attitudes to the west, and varying degrees of stability. | :05:51. | :05:56. | |
In Algeria, where this tragedy has unfolded, the military retains huge | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
political power. Its rulers have kept out of the Arab Spring, and | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
they have only recently mended relations with France, after a long | :06:03. | :06:08. | |
chill. After years of fighting in Islamist insurgency in the 190s, | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
they have shown this week they are still -- 1990s, they have shown | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
this week they are still prepared to act ruthlessly without talking | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
to the west. Libya, freed with the aid of British and French air | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
strike, should be the west's most reliable partner in north Africa, | :06:26. | :06:32. | |
it has failed to rein in Islamist militias, it can't stem the flow of | :06:32. | :06:37. | |
militants or arms across its desert. Mali, now gulfed in the conflict | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
that apparently triggered the hostage-taking, was once a | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
promising democracy, but a military coup last year provoked chaos, | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
America can't help, because it says the new regime is illegal. Nigeria | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
should be coming to the rescue, it is spearheading the African force | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
meant to bring peace to Mali, its troops are, in reality, badly | :06:56. | :07:01. | |
trained, they are leaving behind another Islamist insurgency in | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
Nigeria theself. But many think military solutions alone won't work. | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
And that it is poverty and bad Government that are fuelling the | :07:08. | :07:13. | |
growth in Islamist militancy. You have to understand what are the | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
security risks we are facing now in The Sahara region of Africa. | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
Furthermore, you have to understand that problem has to do with | :07:20. | :07:26. | |
sovereignty. Which is the main issue. Poverty in the sense that | :07:26. | :07:31. | |
people are facing a lot of frustration. There is a lot of food | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
crises, the leadership aren't doing their job. Because of that | :07:35. | :07:38. | |
frustration, people are allowing themselves to be involved in all | :07:38. | :07:43. | |
sorts of things, including what today is termed "terrorism ". | :07:43. | :07:50. | |
Meanwhile, with the hostage crisis still unresolved, Algerian TV | :07:50. | :07:54. | |
showed tonight freed prisoners returning home. The gendarmes kept | :07:54. | :07:59. | |
us safe and away from the bad guys. REPORTER: How do you feel? I never | :07:59. | :08:03. | |
felt any danger, to be honest. they had criticism of the rescue | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
operation, it wasn't broadcast. But in the days ahead, the rest of the | :08:07. | :08:15. | |
world will be analysing exactly what went wrong. We will speak to | :08:15. | :08:19. | |
our diplomatic editor, Mark Urban, who is here now. How much clearer | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
are we now about the people behind this and what they are really | :08:22. | :08:28. | |
trying to achieve? Even yesterday, some people were still putting this | :08:28. | :08:33. | |
in the same category of some of the previous kidnappings, only three or | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
six individuals, much smaller in scale, and, of course, the all | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
goreian Government had denounced this group -- the Algerian | :08:41. | :08:46. | |
Government had denounced this group as cigarette smuggling bed bow wins, | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
what is -- Bedouins. What is clearer after the reports emerged | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
what happened, is this was conceived as a spectacular, perhaps, | :08:54. | :08:57. | |
deliberately to put them on the international Jihadist map. You | :08:57. | :09:04. | |
look at the scale of the target they selected. More than 700 | :09:04. | :09:09. | |
workers there, even when you win know out the Algerian, and 130 | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
foreigners, they went in there with 35 people, on a site covering many | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
miles. How could they really hope to have controlled all those people, | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
or got them away from there to some safer place. Perhaps it was always | :09:20. | :09:26. | |
conceived that it might turn into a last stand, a suicide mission. | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
longer planning than intervention in Mali would suggest? Quite | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
possibly. With these broader aims. The demands made for the release of | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
a woman in Pakistan, and the Egyptian cleric held for the past | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
20 years in America over the original attempt to bomb the World | :09:41. | :09:49. | |
Trade Center, if you like, Jihadist icons, not people narrowly related | :09:50. | :09:58. | |
to the Sahara or the other people, look to go the wider Jihadist | :09:58. | :10:01. | |
movement. Also reports from the freed hostages, that these people | :10:01. | :10:06. | |
who went in there, around 35 gunmen were not just Algerian, they came | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
from several different countries, one of them was described of | :10:09. | :10:11. | |
speaking French of a standard of someone who had grown newspaper | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
France. Evidence too of a wider Jihadist involvement in what they | :10:15. | :10:20. | |
tried to do. What do you make of the diplomacy involved in this. | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
Yesterday all the reports coming out suggested that David Cameron | :10:24. | :10:29. | |
was pretty angry at the way this had been conducted unilaterally, | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
today something much more empathetic to the Algerian | :10:32. | :10:37. | |
Government, and much more gentle, in terms it of the criticism. | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
Because we're going to be in this for a long time, possibly? Some | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
people are still unaccounted for, there are still believed to be some | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
hostages in the gas plant, it is an on going situation, not time to | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
have public recriminations. And I think, perhaps, a more sober | :10:53. | :10:57. | |
appreciation of what kind of group that the Algerians actually had to | :10:57. | :11:01. | |
deal with. Britain was critical, the Japanese were critical. But | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
some other countries have been quite robust in defence of what the | :11:05. | :11:08. | |
Algerians have done. Hillary Clinton, the US Secretary of State, | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
defending them today, and say let's remember who the terrorists are in | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
this situation. The French Interior Minister, also, defending robust | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
action, and urging people not to criticise the Algerians for what | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
they have done. So, they have had quite a bit of support too in this. | :11:23. | :11:27. | |
And too early to talk about the sort of lessons learned, but it has | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
woken everyone up to this region, hasn't it? It has, because if they | :11:31. | :11:37. | |
are going to go for this sort of spectacular, there are other FA | :11:37. | :11:42. | |
sill dotted around the Sahara, from Algeria to Libya. Major facilities, | :11:42. | :11:48. | |
if they are going to take on this kind of target, 98% of Algeria's | :11:48. | :11:50. | |
foreign exchange revenue comes through this industry. They could | :11:50. | :11:55. | |
have a major economic impact, many of the multinationals like BP will | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
have to question the way they operate in the countries. And it | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
has suddenly raised the whole thing several notches up, the | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
international security list of concerns. Thank you very much. To | :12:07. | :12:11. | |
discuss the attack and its implications we're joined by Nigel | :12:11. | :12:16. | |
Inkster, a deputy head of MI6, the energy analyst, Rachel Ziemba, and | :12:16. | :12:22. | |
also by Dr Alia Brahimi, who is an expert on North Africa and the | :12:22. | :12:25. | |
Middle East, from the London School of Economics. Welcome to you all. | :12:25. | :12:29. | |
Thank you for coming in. I think one thing that we have all been | :12:29. | :12:33. | |
shocked about, was that revelation of the scale. We thought we were | :12:33. | :12:39. | |
talking about 30, 40, 50, and suddenly you get these numbers of | :12:39. | :12:44. | |
Algerian hostages, you know, up to 570 freed, it puts the whole | :12:44. | :12:50. | |
military operation in some kind of context? Yeah, I think that what | :12:50. | :12:55. | |
the scale indicates is this has been in the works for quite some | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
time. This is something they have pulled out of their pocket in order | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
to symbolically chime in with the global Jihadist ideology, the | :13:02. | :13:07. | |
French have just entered into Mali. This wasn't hatched as a direct | :13:07. | :13:11. | |
response to the French intervention. But they saw on the wider regional | :13:11. | :13:16. | |
landscape and the world stage, this was the right time to try to | :13:16. | :13:21. | |
execute such an audacious, and as you indicated, absolutely extensive | :13:21. | :13:28. | |
operation. Does that make it clearer in your mind, you probably | :13:28. | :13:33. | |
have sense, from an MI6 perspective, of how an operation like this, to | :13:33. | :13:38. | |
rescue, would be put together. Does that tell us more about why the | :13:38. | :13:44. | |
Algerians went in as they did? think, each of these situations has | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
its own particular characteristics, and it is very difficult to | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
generalise what we are looking at here, I think, has already been | :13:50. | :13:57. | |
said. It is a very large area which gives the hostage-taker as lot of | :13:57. | :14:06. | |
leeway to move around. And I think any attempt to deal with a group | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
like this, given the circumstances, is going to be very challenges. In | :14:10. | :14:15. | |
an ideal world, you would want to constrict these people within clear | :14:15. | :14:19. | |
boundaries, you would want to be able to set up some intelligence, | :14:19. | :14:22. | |
collection, capabilities to monitor these people, have some sense of | :14:22. | :14:25. | |
where they are, where the hostages are, where the areas of risk are. | :14:25. | :14:28. | |
In a situation such as we are talking about, it is pretty obvious | :14:28. | :14:33. | |
this is going to be very difficult to do at all, much less within a | :14:33. | :14:37. | |
very compressed time scale. I guess naturally we are concentrating and | :14:37. | :14:40. | |
our thoughts are with the British nationals, and we're talking about | :14:40. | :14:45. | |
the foreign nationals, but, from the Algerian perspective, this has | :14:45. | :14:50. | |
been successful, hasn't it, most of them, the vast majority got out? | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
Thus far, yes. Obviously the Algerian security forces, Armed | :14:54. | :14:57. | |
Forces, do not have the kind of specialist training and | :14:57. | :15:03. | |
capabilities that the United States, the UK, France and one or two other | :15:03. | :15:09. | |
European nations have. One has to ask ones self how easy it would be | :15:09. | :15:17. | |
for, let's say, the -- one's self, how easy it would be for the | :15:17. | :15:20. | |
British forces the SAS, to do better in this situation, or | :15:20. | :15:22. | |
whether a Special Forces approach would work in this environment. | :15:23. | :15:28. | |
What do you think, could you imagine the Algerian military | :15:28. | :15:34. | |
working side-by-side with Special Forces from other countries? | :15:34. | :15:38. | |
think Algeria definitically historically has jealousy guarded | :15:38. | :15:42. | |
its sovereignty. It also feels it has the necessary expertise to deal | :15:42. | :15:45. | |
with these people, that it has been confronting for many years now, on | :15:45. | :15:52. | |
its own terrain. So I think it probably was quite convinced that | :15:52. | :15:55. | |
it was worth actually trying to go it alone in the first instance. I | :15:55. | :15:59. | |
think going forward, that whole relationship is going to have to be | :15:59. | :16:03. | |
reviewed, if indeed foreign personnel are going to remain in | :16:03. | :16:07. | |
Algeria, working in the oil and gas sector, and some of that | :16:07. | :16:10. | |
sovereignty will have to be conceded and whether that will take | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
the form of private security companies, I don't know. But this | :16:13. | :16:17. | |
threat is definitely on the rise. The response has to match it. | :16:17. | :16:22. | |
Rachel Ziemba what will that mean now? Will the multinationals, who | :16:22. | :16:25. | |
are already talking about evacuating their staff to safety | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
want to carry on working in these places? Sure, I think they are | :16:29. | :16:32. | |
already re-thinking, to go back to your previous point on the | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
Algerians looking fairly well out of it t I think on a broader | :16:36. | :16:40. | |
context this is a major hit too, what the overall policy of the | :16:40. | :16:44. | |
Algerian Government has been. Not only in creating and maintaining | :16:44. | :16:48. | |
the security state, but also in putting all of this security effort | :16:48. | :16:54. | |
into the energy sector. The bulk of it. That was what this message was | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
about? It was possibly not about the people first, it was about the | :16:58. | :17:02. | |
site itself, do you think? I think also just the message of that. | :17:02. | :17:07. | |
think to get to the broader point, obviously already the foreign | :17:07. | :17:13. | |
companies are re-thinking what they are -- what their role will be. It | :17:13. | :17:16. | |
is particularly a concern for any future investment that Algeria | :17:16. | :17:19. | |
might want to attract. They are very much trying to get more | :17:19. | :17:23. | |
investment, unconventional fuels. This is just another reason why | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
foreign companies might give Algeria a wide berth, go to places | :17:26. | :17:29. | |
that are easier to operate in on a business environment and security | :17:29. | :17:33. | |
basis. Of course, we have to raise the question, what if there are | :17:33. | :17:40. | |
more takes like this, will this affect supplies. Are these the | :17:40. | :17:42. | |
unintended consequences of the end of the Colonel Gaddafi rule, is | :17:42. | :17:48. | |
this what we didn't know about? I think this is one of the unintended | :17:48. | :17:53. | |
consequences. This whole situation has been brewing for a long time. | :17:53. | :17:57. | |
It has just maintained itself below the radar screen, but all of a | :17:57. | :18:02. | |
sudden this massive influx of former Gaddafi mercenaries, plus | :18:02. | :18:08. | |
their weapons. Plus the money? of course, money. Which is what? | :18:08. | :18:13. | |
Saudi money now? The money from these groups comes from a lot of | :18:13. | :18:18. | |
different sources. Al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreg around 2008/09 was | :18:19. | :18:23. | |
in a very powerless state, then they managed to cash in a lot of | :18:23. | :18:26. | |
money from ranson payments from various western Governments, and | :18:26. | :18:30. | |
they were in business again. Since then they have been raising money | :18:30. | :18:34. | |
from various forms of smuggling, continued Rannellssome payments, | :18:34. | :18:42. | |
some degree of outside fansing -- ranson payments, some degree of | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
outside financing. They are quite wealthy. This is the soft | :18:45. | :18:48. | |
underbelly of Europe, the place that will become the breeding | :18:48. | :18:52. | |
ground for militants that we haven't really paid attention to. | :18:52. | :18:57. | |
Is that how you see it? As Nigel said, events have really | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
accelerated, it has all happened very quickly. If it isn't already | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
seen that way, it will come to be seen that way. What you have is not | :19:05. | :19:10. | |
just the fact that the downfall of Gaddafi has had this collateral | :19:10. | :19:16. | |
damage in Mali, but you have these militant groups forming alliances, | :19:16. | :19:19. | |
this growing Jihadi global consciousness among previously | :19:19. | :19:23. | |
localised and ineffectual groups. They are all sort of coming | :19:23. | :19:26. | |
together. That intellectual and ideolgical space has been matched | :19:26. | :19:33. | |
with a ter Toryal space suddenly in northern mal-- territorial space | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
suddenly in northern Mali. There are training camps there, I don't | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
think the French are exaggerating the threat when they say we have to | :19:41. | :19:44. | |
re-think this. It is a very dangerous position. Where does it | :19:44. | :19:47. | |
leave the French position or any western position, if the French | :19:47. | :19:50. | |
have boots on the ground, could this be their Iraq, somewhere they | :19:50. | :19:55. | |
are going to be for a long time? would be hesitant to compare it to | :19:55. | :20:00. | |
any specific other example. I think the issue here is whether it is | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
French, and we are starting to have other NATO members have, if not | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
boots on the glound, but support operations, they -- ground, but | :20:09. | :20:13. | |
support operations, they could get dragged in, the Canadians, the | :20:13. | :20:19. | |
British to some extent. The big issue this is not going to be an | :20:19. | :20:23. | |
easy fight or solved militarily, there will be economic elements to | :20:23. | :20:28. | |
this. This is a point where, speaking especially about for | :20:28. | :20:33. | |
example Algeria and Libya, this is a dynamic where Europe is in a | :20:33. | :20:37. | |
situation where because of the economic situation within Europe, | :20:37. | :20:43. | |
there is even less capacity both militarily, but also from an | :20:43. | :20:49. | |
economic basis. It is much closer, a three-hour flight. Did you hear | :20:49. | :20:54. | |
anything in what David Cameron said today that suggested this is now | :20:54. | :21:02. | |
our focus for military intervention, or at least security? His reference | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
to an existential threat was very interesting. I think it was | :21:07. | :21:10. | |
slightly worrying, in the sense that it is obviously in the | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
interests of these groups, to aggregate up their cause into | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
something that is greater than the sum of the parts. I think we need | :21:18. | :21:25. | |
to be wary about playing this game any more than we need to. Having | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
said that, I think the honest answer is, yes, we probably are | :21:29. | :21:32. | |
going to need to be more involved, I think there is going to be a lot | :21:32. | :21:37. | |
of work needed to be done in capacity building for local | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
regional forces, rather perhaps than direct military involvement by | :21:41. | :21:45. | |
countries like the UK, but there is a lot that can be done that needs | :21:45. | :21:50. | |
to be done to bring local African capabilities up to where they need | :21:50. | :21:53. | |
to be to begin to deal with this threat. This will take a lot of | :21:53. | :21:57. | |
time. Thank you very much indeed. Thank you very much for coming in. | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
Ask people what they want out of Europe, holidays aside, and many | :22:01. | :22:04. | |
will offer you a fairly visceral view. The polls on British | :22:04. | :22:07. | |
membership of the EU have changed little over 40 years, the country | :22:07. | :22:10. | |
roughly splits in half. Tonight we step away from the politicians and | :22:10. | :22:14. | |
ask those who work in health, haulage, small businesses, how the | :22:14. | :22:24. | |
EU rules have changed their lives. 40 years ago this month, we joined | :22:24. | :22:28. | |
what was then called the Common Market. That, of course, has | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
evolved into the EU. It now does far more in our lives than the | :22:32. | :22:37. | |
trading group we signed up to. Each of us has a different story to tell | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
about Europe, but one thing to note from polling evidence, even if the | :22:41. | :22:46. | |
politicians get convulsed by periodic euro-spasams, the public | :22:46. | :22:50. | |
is pretty constant. We have been tracking whether people want to | :22:50. | :22:54. | |
leave Europe or stay in it in the EU, since 1977, what is interesting | :22:54. | :22:58. | |
is that the figures in our latest survey, just at the end of last | :22:58. | :23:02. | |
year, had 48% want to go leave, 44% wanting to stay in. Those figures | :23:02. | :23:06. | |
are very, very close, one or two percentage points away from how | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
people felt in 1977. If you didn't do any polls between that period | :23:10. | :23:14. | |
you would say nothing much had changed. But one thing that has | :23:14. | :23:19. | |
changed, for some people, Europe has made a huge impact on their | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
lives. For junior doctors, for example, the European Working Time | :23:23. | :23:27. | |
Directive has limited their hours, they can only work 48 a week, that | :23:27. | :23:30. | |
includes on-call time. They are understandably keen to keep this | :23:30. | :23:34. | |
protection. I think bringing down doctors' hours has been beneficial, | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
I think people who are tired make mistake, doctors who are tired make | :23:38. | :23:41. | |
mistakes with patients, that is something we have managed to avoid | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
and improve. That has led to patient safety improvements. | :23:45. | :23:47. | |
Ripping up the European Working Time Directive would be a mistake, | :23:47. | :23:52. | |
in your view? I think if we removed EWTD we would have to replace it | :23:52. | :23:56. | |
with something just as important to maintain safety for patients and | :23:57. | :24:00. | |
for doctors. Clearly junior doctors think Europe has been great, but | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
has had been great for the rest of us, for patients, who receive NHS | :24:04. | :24:07. | |
care, for the tax-payers who have to pay for it. There is another | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
view, here at the Royal College of Surgeons, they think it has been a | :24:12. | :24:17. | |
disaster. The problem with the European working time directive for | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
surgical training is the rigid working hours we experience, | :24:21. | :24:25. | |
patients kb can't be followed through in the same way as | :24:25. | :24:29. | |
previously. They are handed over between teams, we think it is a | :24:29. | :24:33. | |
problem for patient safety. We are not getting the same levels of | :24:33. | :24:37. | |
experience by following the patients through their pathway in | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
surgery. Another group keen to see renegotiation of the European | :24:40. | :24:45. | |
regulations is the haulage industry. Foreign lorries fill up their tangs | :24:45. | :24:50. | |
with cheaper diesel bought abroad and undercut British firms. The | :24:50. | :24:54. | |
Government is bringing in a new charge on such lorries, �10 day, | :24:54. | :25:01. | |
because of the EU rules the charge has to go on to British lorries too. | :25:01. | :25:06. | |
It is said they won't lose out because they pay lower excise duty | :25:06. | :25:11. | |
to balance it out. More complexity, the hauliers say �10 is too little | :25:11. | :25:16. | |
to make things fair. They have enough fuel to last all week, and | :25:16. | :25:19. | |
because the rules are relaxed about what they can and can't do inside | :25:19. | :25:24. | |
the UK. They can pick up a load in Manchester take it to Birmingham, | :25:24. | :25:29. | |
pick up one from Birmingham and take it to Cardiff and take it out | :25:29. | :25:34. | |
of the country. They can now work in the UK at far cheaper rates than | :25:34. | :25:38. | |
the UK haulier because they have bought the fuel abroad at 25p a | :25:38. | :25:42. | |
litre less, that is decimating the industry. And whilst there are | :25:42. | :25:46. | |
plenty of businesses who say that Europe has been great for them, | :25:46. | :25:51. | |
with access to half a billion consumers across the continent, for | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
some smaller concerns that trade exclusively in the UK, well, you | :25:55. | :26:00. | |
sometimes get a different story. For me it is an absolute nightmare, | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
when you get more and more legislation. The great thing about | :26:03. | :26:07. | |
running a small business, or relatively small business is that | :26:07. | :26:10. | |
ability to be able to think on your feet and move fast what Europe is | :26:10. | :26:14. | |
doing is trying to tie us up with more legislation, the likes of | :26:14. | :26:18. | |
which will slow us down, and that competitive edge we once had is | :26:18. | :26:21. | |
finished. For me, we don't need another layer of middle management, | :26:21. | :26:25. | |
we have one, we have our politician, we don't need another layer of | :26:25. | :26:28. | |
management, I'm sorry. A little before that the speaker had said, | :26:28. | :26:31. | |
this was before the vote was announced, that he anticipated | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
there would be a good deal of noise and celebration. We entered the | :26:35. | :26:38. | |
Common Market because of a vote in parliament, we stayed in because of | :26:38. | :26:43. | |
a referendum two years later. In about two years time we may have | :26:43. | :26:47. | |
another referendum. But this time, we will have far more experience to | :26:47. | :26:56. | |
vote on. Review is here on BBC Two next. | :26:56. | :27:03. | |
Tonight we're soaked in blood after watching Quentin Tarantino's | :27:03. | :27:07. | |
typically gory Django Unchained, the Vikings have returned to | :27:07. | :27:12. | |
Scotland, this time bringing treasure, it turns out they weren't | :27:12. | :27:15. | |
quite as bloodthirsty as you might have thought. Prime Minister Prime | :27:15. | :27:19. | |
Minister is back on the screens, ready to tackle the coalition. We | :27:19. | :27:24. | |
have tales of teenage trauma on the screen and the page. Join me | :27:24. | :27:27. | |
Natalie Haynes, Denise Mina, and John Sergeant in just a minute. | :27:27. | :27:31. | |
Before we go I will take you through the front pages of | :27:31. | :27:41. | |
:27:41. | :27:41. | ||
Apology for the loss of subtitles for 70 seconds | :27:41. | :28:51. | |
That's all from us this evening, we wish you fun in the snow, if that | :28:51. | :28:56. |