Browse content similar to 21/01/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Tonight, after the could have fips and the wreckage of the Algerian | :00:13. | :00:17. | |
hostage crisis, the Prime Minister sets out his plan for fighting | :00:17. | :00:20. | |
international terrorism. More than ever this evolving threat demands | :00:20. | :00:25. | |
an international response. It must be one that is tough, intelligent, | :00:25. | :00:29. | |
patient, and based on strong international partnerships. | :00:29. | :00:34. | |
It sounded like an important change of strategy, but what will it | :00:34. | :00:38. | |
amount to in practice? We will hear from diplomats, soldiers and | :00:38. | :00:43. | |
analysts whether Africa is the new frontline in an endless campaign. | :00:43. | :00:48. | |
From relatives mourning those they loved. But we actually had to find | :00:48. | :00:52. | |
out for ourselves, we were not given any official information. It | :00:52. | :00:58. | |
was through Facebook of all things that we found out of Kenny's demise. | :00:58. | :01:04. | |
We are in Mali, on the streets of newly-liberated Diabaly. | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
TRANSLATION: We heard the helicopters, so did the rebels, | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
most of them ran to hide in the houses nearby, afterwards the | :01:10. | :01:15. | |
rebels told us they just want to impose Sharia Law here. Plus, in | :01:15. | :01:20. | |
Syria, where foren intervention is off the international agenda, | :01:20. | :01:24. | |
devastation and apparent normality, just minutes away from each other | :01:24. | :01:34. | |
:01:34. | :01:42. | ||
in the city of Homs. The final death toll in the | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
Algerian oil siege is unknown, it could be 48 dead, at least three | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
British. The Prime Minister in a tone some found reminiscent of Tony | :01:49. | :01:55. | |
Blair after 9/11, promised a long, hard fight and an intelligent | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
political response. To the terrorist threat against British | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
workers interests and allies. And what might that all mean, and with | :02:02. | :02:05. | |
Barack Obama telling Americans on his Inaugration Day that a decade | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
of war is now over, what kind of leadership can we now expect. We | :02:09. | :02:14. | |
begin our coverage on the new frontline of the conflict on Mali, | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
where French troops push back Islamist rebels from the town of | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
Diabaly, the beginning of what could be a long and difficulty | :02:21. | :02:24. | |
conflict. We report on a day of triumph for the French, and | :02:24. | :02:30. | |
setbacks for the rebels. France takes another step deeper | :02:30. | :02:36. | |
into this conflict. Crossing here into what was rebel-held territory | :02:36. | :02:41. | |
in central Mali. We have come with them to the down of Diabaly, | :02:41. | :02:44. | |
controlled until this weekend by Islamist militants, some may still | :02:44. | :02:50. | |
be in the area. The French quickly begin to check | :02:50. | :02:56. | |
the nearby houses. But the population seems relaxed now. And | :02:56. | :03:01. | |
relieved. They are keen to show us the | :03:01. | :03:08. | |
wreckage of their week-long ordeal. TRANSLATION: These are pick-up | :03:08. | :03:13. | |
trucks, destroyed by French helicopters, two Jihadists were | :03:13. | :03:18. | |
killed here. We find seven more charred vehicles nearby. They were | :03:18. | :03:22. | |
hit with great precision, French Special Forces presumably helping | :03:22. | :03:29. | |
to direct the air strikes. TRANSLATION: We heard the | :03:29. | :03:34. | |
helicopters, so did the rebels, most of them ran to hide in the | :03:34. | :03:39. | |
houses nearby. Afterwards the rebels told us they just want to | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
impose Sharia Law here. What do you think of Sharia Law? TRANSLATION: | :03:43. | :03:51. | |
We don't want it. It doesn't suit us here. The Islamists chose to | :03:51. | :03:57. | |
attack this town for a reason. This is it, the army garrison, packed | :03:57. | :04:02. | |
with weapons, and not nearly as well guarded as you might expect. | :04:02. | :04:07. | |
The rebels, some suggest more than 100 of them, seized the town in a | :04:07. | :04:11. | |
day. The Islamists have left now, French air strikes clearly did | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
their job. But before they left the rebels had every chance to loot | :04:15. | :04:19. | |
this huge arsenal, giving them plenty of weapons for the war ahead. | :04:19. | :04:25. | |
Right now the battle here is over, but Mali's hit-and-run insurgency | :04:25. | :04:31. | |
may be just beginning. So who were the men who came to | :04:31. | :04:36. | |
Diabaly? We found only one unidentifiable body. But more have | :04:36. | :04:41. | |
been buried in town. The rebels' survivors withdrew across these | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
fields heading east, according to the French. After a year of defeats, | :04:45. | :04:51. | |
the mally army seems keen to chase after them now. TRANSLATION: | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
around us it is fine, with the help of French troops it is reassuring. | :04:55. | :04:59. | |
But we must search and search for more, there may still be a few | :04:59. | :05:07. | |
pockets of enemy resistance. French politely insist they are | :05:07. | :05:11. | |
keen to let Mali's demoralised army do its share of the fighting here. | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
But from what we have learned in Diabaly today, it is clear this | :05:14. | :05:20. | |
army is part of the problem. This soldier, Dioncounda Traore, has | :05:21. | :05:25. | |
agreed to show me why, he's based at the garrison, and hid in town | :05:25. | :05:29. | |
when it was overrun. The Islamists came to his home here | :05:29. | :05:35. | |
to look for him, and trashed his belongings. He says some of the | :05:35. | :05:40. | |
rebels are foreign Jihadist, but he knows others are former colleagues | :05:40. | :05:45. | |
from his own army unit. Do you know the names of these people, would | :05:45. | :05:52. | |
you recognise them? TRANSLATION: Yes, they defected last year when | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
the Tuareg started their rebellion. When they came back last week they | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
were Islamist, I think they are just after money. People believe | :06:00. | :06:07. | |
the rebels are rich. Outside another soldier confirmed the story. | :06:08. | :06:13. | |
TRANSLATION: Yes, many of our comrades became our enemies, now we | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
will hunt them down and kill them all. | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
The threat posed by foreign Islamist militants is real here, | :06:20. | :06:23. | |
but the fact that some of the men who appear to have attacked this | :06:23. | :06:28. | |
town were actually former members of the Mali army is a reminder of | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
how many of this country's problems are home-grown. | :06:33. | :06:39. | |
No simple solutions here, then, for Mali's complex mercury rebellion. | :06:39. | :06:45. | |
-- murky rebellion. I'm joined now by the editor of the | :06:45. | :06:51. | |
BBC of a frik ka service, which broadcasts too in French to Africa. | :06:51. | :06:56. | |
Can Mali actually be stablised, do you think? That is the difficult | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
and complex question to answer now. What the French and the mally army, | :07:00. | :07:05. | |
and later on the west African troops, will be doing, is to at | :07:05. | :07:09. | |
least secure the south. So far that is what they are doing, the north | :07:09. | :07:16. | |
is still under the control of the insurgent s, the Islamist, part of | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
it. The other answer is political, if you go south of Mali where there | :07:20. | :07:26. | |
is a President, this President is really fragile in his ruling. It is | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
an interim President, put there by the west African leaders, because | :07:29. | :07:35. | |
there was a coup in March, right before the democratic elections, | :07:35. | :07:41. | |
and then you have the north issues, which are not just the Islamist | :07:41. | :07:48. | |
insurgent issue, it is a Tuareg issue, it is a Malian issue. Do the | :07:49. | :07:55. | |
mallyian Tuareg have pushed out the Islamist insurgents to be -- will | :07:55. | :08:00. | |
the mallyian army who have pushed out the Islamist terrorists be able | :08:00. | :08:06. | |
to solve the Tuareg issue, which is more complicated than the Islamist | :08:06. | :08:11. | |
issue. I wonder what is at stake for the neighbours, I don't just | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
mean Algeria and Morocco, but those to the south, it must be a | :08:15. | :08:20. | |
difficult situation for awful them? That is why the west African army | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
wanted to go in. They can't go in, because it is complicated. If you | :08:24. | :08:28. | |
take the Tuareg issue, it is not only Mali, it is also Moritania, | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
which doesn't want to be involved at all in the mally operation. Then | :08:33. | :08:38. | |
you have Niger, which has its own Tuareg problems, where they were | :08:38. | :08:44. | |
able there to sort out the issues there. Then you have all the small | :08:44. | :08:54. | |
:08:54. | :08:55. | ||
countries, which are all stable but in a fragile state. They are all | :08:55. | :09:00. | |
worried? About the Islamist insurgents, if you push them out of | :09:00. | :09:06. | |
Mali they might find somewhere else in there, which is as vast as the | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
European continent, where will they go next? Because Algeria is | :09:09. | :09:14. | |
blocking its border, then it would be difficult for other countries by | :09:14. | :09:19. | |
themselves to secure their own desert area. We will pick up some | :09:19. | :09:24. | |
of those issues in a moment. Relatives of those missing after | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
terrorists stormed the gas plant in Algeria have spent an agonising few | :09:28. | :09:33. | |
days trying to get information, and sadly, for some, their worst fears | :09:33. | :09:41. | |
have been realised. The White Tiger family found out about their son | :09:41. | :09:46. | |
and brother's death through Facebook. We met up and asked about | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
the circumstances of finding out about their brother's killing. | :09:51. | :09:59. | |
know now what's happened to Kenny, and we actually had to find out for | :10:00. | :10:03. | |
our selves, we were not given any official information. It was | :10:03. | :10:08. | |
through Facebook, of all things, that we found south of Kenny's | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
demise. It was my daughter found it on | :10:11. | :10:17. | |
Facebook, a message from an Algerian co-worker. So, if you like | :10:17. | :10:25. | |
a, an unofficial confirmation, you didn't get anything official from | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
the authorities? The police came last night and informed us that | :10:30. | :10:37. | |
what was on Facebook was true, that Kenny had been, he was executed. | :10:37. | :10:42. | |
Can I say before we go on, I'm very sorry for your loss, and I'm very | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
grateful for you speaking to us in these circumstances. Can I ask you | :10:45. | :10:51. | |
what you feel about the way that the situation was handled in | :10:51. | :10:57. | |
Algeria? Well, it is just the way life is, I'm afraid. I don't hold | :10:57. | :11:03. | |
any grudges against Algeria and the army or anything, that's the way | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
they work. That's their system. They weren't bothered about the | :11:06. | :11:14. | |
hostages as such, they just wanted to get the camp cleared of all the | :11:14. | :11:19. | |
terrorists. That was the main objective. As far as I could see. | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
Had Kenny been working out there for some time? It must be about | :11:23. | :11:28. | |
five years, I think, he has been working in Algeria. And in that | :11:28. | :11:34. | |
time had he expressed any concerns about safety, about how their | :11:34. | :11:37. | |
safety was, and how they were protected out there? That sort of | :11:37. | :11:42. | |
thing never bothered Kenny. He has worked all over the world, he just | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
didn't think about it. So he was well used to working in difficult | :11:46. | :11:53. | |
places, and trouble spots? Yes, more or less. He has worked all | :11:53. | :11:59. | |
over Africa, Zambia, South Africa, Russia's been around. He knew what | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
the game was all about. What was the job that he did? He was | :12:03. | :12:09. | |
actually he went out there as a fitter to trade, with Babcock & | :12:09. | :12:15. | |
Wilcox but worked himself up. His official title was planning manager, | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
project manager. He was head hunted, he was obviously very good at his | :12:19. | :12:25. | |
job, he was head hunted for a few jobs. In the light of what's | :12:25. | :12:29. | |
happened, and we hear this morning that there is quite a high death | :12:29. | :12:33. | |
toll amongst the hostages, what are your feelings about what needs to | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
be done to protect men and women that are out there in similar | :12:37. | :12:43. | |
circumstances in the future? honestly don't think you could do | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
anything. Not any more than was done already. They had security | :12:46. | :12:52. | |
guards, but you can't guard every installation all over the world, | :12:52. | :12:58. | |
just because of these fanatics. If they are going to attack, they will | :12:58. | :13:08. | |
:13:08. | :13:09. | ||
do it, you know. What has happened in Algeria and Mali is all at the | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
same time an international incident, a security to energy -- security | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
threat to energy companies, and danger to local people, and a | :13:17. | :13:21. | |
threat to Governments. With David Cameron promising a response that | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
is tough, intelligent and patient, and based on international | :13:25. | :13:28. | |
partnerships. We're going to assess some of the options open to Mr | :13:28. | :13:31. | |
Cameron and other Government leaders. It sounds like it is a | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
very big change for Mr Cameron, is it, in terms of strategy? You would | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
certainly think so, from the statement he gave in the palace of | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
Westminster today. He was quite explicit about a number of themes. | :13:43. | :13:49. | |
You got a sense from him of a certain focus, or priority that was | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
once really dominating our security considerations giving way to | :13:53. | :13:59. | |
another. That was articulated quite clearly in the Commons. This attack | :13:59. | :14:01. | |
underlines the threat that terrorist groups pose to the | :14:01. | :14:06. | |
countries and peoples of that region, and to our citizens, our | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
companies and our interests too. Four years ago the principal threat | :14:10. | :14:13. | |
from Islamist extremism came from the Afghanistan and Pakistan region. | :14:13. | :14:18. | |
A huge amount has been done to address and reduce the scale of | :14:18. | :14:22. | |
that threat. Where as at one point three-quarters of the most serious | :14:22. | :14:26. | |
terrorist plots against the UK had links to that region, today this | :14:26. | :14:31. | |
has reduced to less than half. Listening to that, you could think | :14:31. | :14:36. | |
that he was suggesting that as UK forces draw down in Afghanistan | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
over the next year or year-and-a- half, the UK will increasingly be | :14:40. | :14:44. | |
ready to put its shoulder to the wheel in North Africa? We heard | :14:44. | :14:52. | |
from Brahimi a few moments ago, about what is at stake in Africa. | :14:52. | :14:55. | |
Could Britain play a part in shaping the whole regional | :14:55. | :15:00. | |
strategy? It could play a part. But there are all sorts of barriers to | :15:00. | :15:04. | |
how extensive and influential a part it could play. This draw down | :15:04. | :15:08. | |
in Afghanistan isn't happening quite as quickly as the ramping up | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
you might want in North Africa if you were really going to put troops | :15:11. | :15:15. | |
on the ground. That very point is clearly one of some sensitivity to | :15:15. | :15:18. | |
Downing Street. They are not out to send hundreds of troops in there | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
straight away. They are trying to work to build up relationships, | :15:22. | :15:24. | |
diplomatic, intelligence, military- to-military, the sort of thing they | :15:24. | :15:28. | |
have been doing in quite a few African countries. There are some | :15:28. | :15:32. | |
really difficult challenges here. Most particularly, the attitudes of | :15:32. | :15:36. | |
the host Government, the all goreian Government, we saw their | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
attitude -- Algerian Government, we saw their attitude to those trying | :15:40. | :15:44. | |
to get involved in the negotiating and political level in the crisis. | :15:44. | :15:49. | |
They will be very reluctant to take in the outside forces, and France | :15:49. | :15:54. | |
and others have stronger security ties with them. Libya, of course, | :15:54. | :15:58. | |
NATO very involved there in overthrowing the Gaddafi regime, | :15:58. | :16:02. | |
but they have been reluctant to accept military advisers from NATO | :16:02. | :16:06. | |
countries. It is a delicate atmosphere operating there even, it | :16:06. | :16:12. | |
would be hard for the UK to put its very limited resources, diplomatic, | :16:12. | :16:17. | |
intelligence whatever into this sensitive scenario. Lots of legal | :16:17. | :16:21. | |
potential difficulties too. On the intelligence side, the Algerian | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
Government, the way it treats terrorist subjects, quite strict | :16:25. | :16:30. | |
rules on what intelligence we could share with them. Where is the | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
United States on this? The US appears ready to look at a great | :16:34. | :16:37. | |
many international crises that develop now from the sidelines. | :16:37. | :16:41. | |
President Obama was inaugurated today for his second term, and this | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
sense of his focus so much being on the domestic, was quite clearly in | :16:45. | :16:50. | |
the peach -- clear in the speech he gave at his inauguration. This | :16:50. | :16:55. | |
generation of Americans has been tested by crises that steeled our | :16:55. | :17:03. | |
resolve and proved our resilience. A decade of war is now ending. An | :17:03. | :17:09. | |
economic recovery has begun. clearly he wants to keep the focus | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
domestic, economic, social. He doesn't want to involve himself in | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
new wars, we know that from the past year. That has implications | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
for North Africa, it also has implications for Iran, and the | :17:21. | :17:26. | |
world much more widely, siria. Potentially a very significant | :17:26. | :17:29. | |
statement from Syria. Potentially a very significant statement from | :17:29. | :17:33. | |
President Obama today. We have a former UK ambassador in Washington | :17:33. | :17:38. | |
with us, we have the a former US Ambassador for the United Nations, | :17:38. | :17:44. | |
we have an Algerian born political analyst, he advises companies that | :17:44. | :17:50. | |
operate in the region. And the CEO of Keyhaven, who specialise in | :17:50. | :17:55. | |
crisis management, former director of defence management in the MoD. | :17:55. | :18:02. | |
Your roots are in the region, how serious do you think the issue s or | :18:02. | :18:08. | |
is it anything less than banditry? It is a serious threat to the | :18:08. | :18:11. | |
region and international security. You have a region that is | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
increasingly unstable as a result of some of the power vacuums have | :18:14. | :18:18. | |
taken place, or that are currently in place in Libya and northern Mali. | :18:18. | :18:24. | |
You have terrorists, or Jihadi groups have been able to utilise | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
this new safe haven, this vast territory that is uncontrolled, and | :18:28. | :18:34. | |
poorly monitored, in terms of surveillance, by the states, and to | :18:34. | :18:37. | |
utilise that, not only for financial gain through the drug | :18:37. | :18:43. | |
trade, and through arms proliferation, but also through the | :18:43. | :18:49. | |
type of techniques we have seen now in these kinds of hostage crises. | :18:49. | :18:54. | |
You were also involved in the threat assessment business, we have | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
heard everything from cigarette snugling, drug running, the arms | :18:57. | :19:02. | |
business, to just making a profit out of hostages. It is difficult to | :19:02. | :19:05. | |
distinguish that from what seems to be happening now, which we are also | :19:05. | :19:12. | |
told there are links to the establishment of a Kalafate | :19:12. | :19:16. | |
throughout north Africa. Is this a quantitatively different threat | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
from just the banditry? It indicate the number of shared incentives, | :19:20. | :19:25. | |
and what we will see is a kol alllessing and breaking apart of | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
different movements. The analogy I would like to use is it is like a | :19:29. | :19:33. | |
balloon, you squeeze it in one place and you get an expansion | :19:33. | :19:38. | |
somewhere else. Going back to late 2001, the operation in Afghanistan, | :19:38. | :19:42. | |
you had people seeking refuge in Pakistan and Yemen, you squeeze | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
them in Yemen and then Somalia, that is getting better, and they go | :19:46. | :19:49. | |
elsewhere. This is a concerted effort working with other | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
Governments, if necessary behind the scenes. The incentives for the | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
bad people are many, and the interests are many. Do you think | :19:56. | :20:00. | |
there is an ideolgical underpinning to some of this? To some of this. | :20:00. | :20:05. | |
To a certain extent. 0 these groups are using this narrative to -- | :20:05. | :20:09. | |
these groups are using the narrative to create a network in | :20:09. | :20:14. | |
the region. They have been able to attract militants from Boko Haram, | :20:14. | :20:19. | |
from Nigeria, a narrative that bring these groups to a shared | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
interests. If this is such a big threat, shouldn't we have seen it | :20:23. | :20:30. | |
coming? Absolutely. I think it was predictable as an outcome of the | :20:30. | :20:34. | |
Libya vacuum. This is the underbelly of the Arab Spring. You | :20:34. | :20:39. | |
are seeing a rise up, after the end of the Cold War, of all these | :20:39. | :20:43. | |
tensions coming forward. The fact that the Tuaregs were heavily armed | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
to protect Gaddafi, and then decided to go home, should have | :20:46. | :20:50. | |
been a trigger point for stronger international intervention in the | :20:50. | :20:55. | |
north to try to make sure that we nipped this in the bud. We were, | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
the world was looking elsewhere, and really we have a triple tragedy | :20:59. | :21:04. | |
going on, the Tuaregs moving in with arms, the Islamists taking | :21:04. | :21:12. | |
over, and the Government being over thrown in Bamako, it is a perfect | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
storm and the people of Mali pay the price. We heard President Obama | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
making what was largely a big domestic speech on his Inaugration | :21:19. | :21:24. | |
Day, I wondered if it was a case of the American administration, the | :21:24. | :21:27. | |
British, tired of war in Afghanistan, not really wanting to | :21:27. | :21:33. | |
know about this. If it was right under our noses? I wouldn't read | :21:33. | :21:39. | |
too much into the lack of a long and foreign policy speech on an | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
inaugural speech. It was a short speech, there was a few sentences | :21:43. | :21:46. | |
about democracy throughout Africa and the need to make sure we | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
address the problems there, and finish the war. We are tired of war, | :21:49. | :21:53. | |
we have been at war for over ten years in Afghanistan, and finally | :21:53. | :21:57. | |
got out of Iraq. The American people are very wary of it. No | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
President in his inaugural will talk much about it. President Obama | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
understands the need to make sure there is not another safe haven for | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
Al-Qaeda in the heart of Africa. I think you will see a stronger | :22:09. | :22:13. | |
action on this. But don't expect much in the big speeches. I think | :22:13. | :22:17. | |
you will see him moving forward on many of these fronts. How serious | :22:17. | :22:22. | |
do you view this, and is it serious enough that, despite the reluck | :22:22. | :22:25. | |
tannance on the British Government's part, -- reluctance on | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
the British Government's part, we will see boots on the ground at | :22:29. | :22:32. | |
some point in the region? If there are going to be boots on the ground | :22:32. | :22:37. | |
at some point, there must be a very clear military objective for the | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
action. One of the things we have learned from Afghanistan, is troops | :22:40. | :22:43. | |
without a clear political plan are a west of time. That is why we have | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
not made the -- a waste of time. That is why we haven't made the | :22:47. | :22:55. | |
progress in Afghanistan we would have liked to make. We had Iraq a | :22:55. | :23:00. | |
Millerry -- military push and it led to the war of unintended | :23:00. | :23:05. | |
consequences. What about the French? Is it just a short-term | :23:05. | :23:08. | |
military operation to hold the line until the African troops turn up, | :23:08. | :23:12. | |
or are they intending to create a political ring in which there can | :23:12. | :23:16. | |
be some kind of negotiation between the Tuaregs in the north, who want | :23:16. | :23:20. | |
independence, or autonomy, and the Government in the south. This is | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
not yet clear, until these things are clear, you shouldn't even think | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
of putting boots on the ground. That is, you put your finger on the | :23:28. | :23:37. | |
nub of it. There are 2,000 French troops on the ground, you have | :23:37. | :23:41. | |
boots on the ground. The French are going to find it very difficult to | :23:41. | :23:46. | |
come in very late with very few troops. They have 2,000, they said | :23:46. | :23:49. | |
maybe 4,000. So they are in there. I think it is going to get very | :23:49. | :23:55. | |
messy. What should have happened is the US, France, the international | :23:55. | :24:01. | |
community could have reinforced the mally Government to address the -- | :24:01. | :24:06. | |
Mali Government to address the Tuareg initial phases of the | :24:06. | :24:11. | |
military and get immediately into negotiations. The Tuaregs have | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
tired over decades from Bamako of more development in the north that | :24:15. | :24:18. | |
have never come to fruition. What you have to have is the French who | :24:18. | :24:23. | |
need help, the west Africans come in, there is not many capable west | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
Africans they can fight, they can certainly help secure peace. It | :24:27. | :24:33. | |
will eventually be turned over to a UN operation. Kprair this to the | :24:33. | :24:37. | |
Ivory Coast, when -- compare this to the Ivory Coast when they had | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
17,000 troops there and the French had more troops going in, it will | :24:40. | :24:45. | |
be messy before it gets better. terms of the messiness, you talked | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
about presumably having a negotiation between a Government in | :24:48. | :24:50. | |
the mally capital and the taurs, except this is a Government that | :24:50. | :24:56. | |
came to power because of military coup, and the one-eyed cigarette | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
dialer who is responsible for this is not -- dealer who is responsible | :25:00. | :25:06. | |
for this is not able to negotiate? This has as many layers as a club | :25:06. | :25:10. | |
sandwich. There isn't a threat for the west, there are threats. What | :25:10. | :25:16. | |
we faced in Algeria was a sovereign state with a capable military force | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
and Special Forces has been against oil and gas installations where | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
Brits are working who have been tragically killed, that was a | :25:24. | :25:26. | |
specific British interest, go to Mali and you have a failed state. | :25:26. | :25:30. | |
It is not clear they can be put back together again. The threat is | :25:30. | :25:36. | |
different in Algeria from in Mali, from elsewhere in the countries. | :25:36. | :25:40. | |
The one thing we have to watch out for, where there is another British | :25:40. | :25:45. | |
interest, does it infect, more than you refer to, Nigeria? Can we talk | :25:45. | :25:51. | |
about the options, particularly the military option right now. You have | :25:51. | :25:57. | |
got 40 armed people, apparently, going to attack a remote plant, | :25:57. | :26:02. | |
with 6600 civil -- 600 civilian workers under a good security | :26:02. | :26:06. | |
apparatus, it is hard to see how you can protect these exposed | :26:06. | :26:09. | |
plants from people who don't care how many they kill or how they die | :26:10. | :26:13. | |
themselves? I agree, there is no such thing as perfect and complete | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
protection. What all the different oil and gas interests will need to | :26:16. | :26:19. | |
be reassured about is the continuing and ined effort to | :26:20. | :26:26. | |
protect their people. In the short- term they can increase promises | :26:26. | :26:30. | |
security, they can clampdown on people's movement, the engineers | :26:30. | :26:34. | |
going to and fro. Come back to your point, if you have a really | :26:34. | :26:37. | |
determined bunch of people who have planned the operation for some time, | :26:37. | :26:40. | |
they have arms and weapons on their side, there is not much that can | :26:40. | :26:45. | |
stand in their way. But, there is more which can be done. My own | :26:45. | :26:48. | |
personal experience relates to some of the borders, physically the | :26:48. | :26:52. | |
borders between the countries. I remember for instance, for example, | :26:52. | :26:56. | |
two or three years ago on the border between Algeria and Libya, | :26:56. | :27:00. | |
and going down to view a border crossing point, deep in The Sahara. | :27:00. | :27:04. | |
What was interesting to me is the fact that place closed up at night. | :27:04. | :27:09. | |
One could see hundreds of sets of footprints, illegal movement across | :27:09. | :27:12. | |
the border. More can be done in a cheap and cheerful way. Not to | :27:12. | :27:18. | |
solve the problem, but at least to bear down and make the borders less | :27:18. | :27:22. | |
porous. I wondered whether the context of this is, is there an | :27:22. | :27:27. | |
African solution to what is fundamentally an African problem? | :27:28. | :27:31. | |
Ultimately the Africans are going to need to solve these problems. | :27:31. | :27:35. | |
The problem is right now in the short-term crises, they don't have | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
the military capacity to move. The UN has authorised 3,000 troops to | :27:39. | :27:43. | |
go into northern Mali, recognising in the same resolution that they | :27:43. | :27:47. | |
are not capable of doing so. To the hostage crisis in Algeria, first of | :27:47. | :27:51. | |
all, our hearts go out to those who have lost their lives, it is a | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
tragedy. But you are going to watch obviously heightened security | :27:55. | :28:00. | |
around any kind of foreign oil installation. But you will watch, | :28:00. | :28:04. | |
and the all goreians have a history of a counter punch on these kinds | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
of things, they will go after many of these militants, it is likely to | :28:08. | :28:15. | |
get blody. Ultimately you will have to have kiebd -- bloody, ultimately | :28:15. | :28:22. | |
vul to have some kind of engagment on these issues. We know withhold | :28:22. | :28:28. | |
hold, he went to Algeria and didn't apologise, quite, and said France | :28:28. | :28:34. | |
had done some terrible things. And the UN mandate stipulated this was | :28:34. | :28:37. | |
an African problem to be solved by Africans, revolving the situation | :28:37. | :28:44. | |
was a job for them, and that they hadn't learned a single lesson. Is | :28:44. | :28:48. | |
it a post colonial problem so it is difficult for outsiders to get | :28:48. | :28:52. | |
involved? It depends who you are asking. One thing for sure, the UN | :28:52. | :28:55. | |
mandate and the plan to give Africans the full control of the | :28:55. | :29:03. | |
situation, and have them intervene in Mali, came too late. The delay, | :29:03. | :29:07. | |
which the African force could only intervene in September, and said it | :29:07. | :29:11. | |
could only intervene in September. No western powers stepped up to the | :29:11. | :29:16. | |
plate, like France, for example, to facilitate their preparation for an | :29:16. | :29:21. | |
operation. That delay gave these terror groups,s they Jihadi groups, | :29:21. | :29:26. | |
the window and mandate they needed, to prepare -- these Jihadi groups, | :29:26. | :29:31. | |
the window and mandate they needed to prepare for the assault on | :29:31. | :29:35. | |
Bamako. One of the key things France should have done was put | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
more power, and western states, more power in the hands of African | :29:38. | :29:43. | |
state. What do you think of that? The trouble of this, I will go back | :29:43. | :29:47. | |
on something that was said, you can empower the UN to authorise | :29:47. | :29:51. | |
thousands of west African troops to come in and hold the line, but they | :29:51. | :29:54. | |
actually aren't militarily capable and don't have the logistics to do | :29:54. | :29:58. | |
it. Time and time again they show themselves want anything this | :29:58. | :30:01. | |
respect. Doesn't that say to the French you have to do something now, | :30:01. | :30:05. | |
your point is we have to figure out what we are doing there politically, | :30:05. | :30:08. | |
presumably, as seen from the Elysee, this is something that can't wait | :30:08. | :30:13. | |
and you have to get in? Ten or 15 years Agatha might have been an | :30:13. | :30:18. | |
automatic response on the part of the French. I think at the moment | :30:18. | :30:22. | |
budget cuts, plus colonial sensibilities make this a much more | :30:22. | :30:26. | |
difficult thing for the French to do than it might have been a | :30:26. | :30:31. | |
generation ago. That is one of the reasons you have this gap. Heaven | :30:31. | :30:37. | |
knows, 2,500 French troops, what difference in the long-term will | :30:37. | :30:41. | |
that make? I think the colonial problem you asked about a moment | :30:41. | :30:46. | |
ago is an on going responsibility to clean up certain problems. You | :30:46. | :30:51. | |
had Sierra Leone in the 1990s, the British went in there. You had most | :30:51. | :30:54. | |
recently the French in the Ivory Coast, we do Liberia. And since the | :30:55. | :30:58. | |
Africans are not yet capable of doing so, we are trying to train | :30:58. | :31:02. | |
them and get them up to speed, but it is another 10-20 years away, we | :31:02. | :31:07. | |
will always get called in. We wait too long to do it. In this case had | :31:07. | :31:10. | |
we reinforced the Government and got them up the north, perhaps, | :31:10. | :31:15. | |
this could have been nipped in the bud. But so long as there are these | :31:15. | :31:22. | |
crises and the Africans are not capable of addressing them, the | :31:22. | :31:25. | |
colonial challenge is it is hard to stand on the sidelines when you | :31:25. | :31:30. | |
have a human tragedy. You will see this going on. They were asked to | :31:30. | :31:35. | |
go in? They went in unilaterally. Do you see really room for | :31:35. | :31:40. | |
negotiation there? We talked about negotiating and the problems of the | :31:40. | :31:43. | |
Tuareg people and so on, but the actual people doing the killing, it | :31:43. | :31:47. | |
seems quite difficult to understand how you would negotiate anything | :31:47. | :31:50. | |
that they would want that you could possibly give them? A couple of | :31:50. | :31:54. | |
things. Somebody who has put this pair of boots in the ground on a | :31:55. | :31:59. | |
number of place, partly towards your point, Sir Christopher, the | :31:59. | :32:02. | |
military on its own can never be a solution on its own. Point number | :32:02. | :32:06. | |
two, to your point about the negotiation, yes, one must take a | :32:06. | :32:11. | |
longer term stance. Whilst there are people who went be swayed there | :32:11. | :32:14. | |
are people with different incentives and perhaps could see | :32:14. | :32:19. | |
where power shifts and could reorientate themselves to a more | :32:19. | :32:25. | |
benign way of living. This is not a totally homogeneous group, you have | :32:25. | :32:28. | |
mandatory smugglers, you have Tuaregs who want autonomy or | :32:28. | :32:32. | |
independence, you have the Jihadists moved by ideolgical moat | :32:32. | :32:37. | |
vagues. The purpose of negotiation is to split off, to divide this | :32:37. | :32:43. | |
coalition of groups. They don't have a lot instrinsically in common, | :32:43. | :32:49. | |
and try to -- intrinsicly in common and try to do deals with them. | :32:49. | :32:55. | |
Algeria pushed for that position early on to prefer the political | :32:55. | :32:59. | |
solution and negotiate with the groups that distinguish themselves | :32:59. | :33:03. | |
with others, and who had genuine grievances in the context of Mali, | :33:03. | :33:07. | |
for example, to differentiate them from other groups operating from | :33:07. | :33:10. | |
the 1990s in Algeria and elsewhere, with the Jihadi network. It is | :33:10. | :33:12. | |
important to make that point, I think. | :33:12. | :33:20. | |
Thank you all very much. To another significant part of this | :33:20. | :33:25. | |
arc of instability, stretching across Afghanistan, Syria. Barack | :33:25. | :33:30. | |
Obama's leadership, or some would say lack of it, has come under fire | :33:30. | :33:33. | |
in Washington, including the Washington Post newspaper. There is | :33:33. | :33:38. | |
no sign of direct action in that conflict, despite the daily | :33:38. | :33:44. | |
killings and misery. Almost a year ago the Syrian forces began a | :33:44. | :33:49. | |
sustained attack on Homs to drive out opposition fighters. We | :33:49. | :33:52. | |
reported last year, and we have returned to find out how it has | :33:52. | :34:00. | |
changed today. Some of the heaviest fighting of Syria's war happened | :34:00. | :34:06. | |
here. This neighbourhood, Baba Amr, came to symbolise a brutal conflict. | :34:06. | :34:09. | |
A ferocious Government offensive, after the opposition took up | :34:09. | :34:13. | |
positions here, was an assault on an entire community. Now, nearly | :34:13. | :34:19. | |
one year on, life is slowly returning to Baba Amr. | :34:19. | :34:24. | |
Rubbish collectors are on the job. A small sign the Government is back | :34:24. | :34:34. | |
:34:34. | :34:39. | ||
on the street. That some families are starting to come home. I asked | :34:39. | :34:49. | |
:34:49. | :34:51. | ||
him how life was here? He said it couldn't be better. | :34:51. | :34:54. | |
Stealing an anxious look at the soldiers escorting us. | :34:54. | :35:00. | |
A repair shop is back in business. It is not much of a bicycle, but | :35:01. | :35:06. | |
the man made it work. It is what life is like here. | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
TRANSLATION: Services are very good, before life was more difficult. But | :35:09. | :35:16. | |
now things are getting better day by day. It is still a fragile calm. | :35:16. | :35:24. | |
But good enough for children to play hopscotch on the treat -- | :35:24. | :35:27. | |
street. Even they don't take notice when guns go off in the distance. | :35:27. | :35:33. | |
It is part of their life now. Scenes like this make you wonder, | :35:33. | :35:43. | |
:35:43. | :35:45. | ||
what's it like to grow up here? The opposition is still present, still | :35:45. | :35:55. | |
:35:55. | :35:56. | ||
fighting in other parts of Homs. (gunfire) Even in areas closer to | :35:56. | :36:03. | |
the city centre, it is like a ghost town. The battle for Homs isn't | :36:03. | :36:08. | |
over. No-one's really winning, no- one's really closing. When we came | :36:08. | :36:12. | |
here last spring this was no man's land, it still is. The Government | :36:12. | :36:18. | |
on this side, this is the historic old city. It has been under siege | :36:18. | :36:23. | |
for months. You can hear the crackle of gunfire right now. | :36:23. | :36:27. | |
Opposition fighters lie down these lanes, but so do civilians, trapped | :36:27. | :36:34. | |
in the middle. The old city has long been cherished by the people | :36:34. | :36:39. | |
of Homs. Look at it now. We couldn't travel in, this video | :36:39. | :36:45. | |
posted by activists on YouTube shows the toll a year-long siege | :36:45. | :36:50. | |
has taken on Homs's heritage. And the people who still live here, in | :36:50. | :36:57. | |
dire conditions. Aid agencies have been trying to get in for months. | :36:57. | :37:01. | |
Just minutes away, it feels like a different city. Even hard to | :37:02. | :37:06. | |
believe there is a war. Most of the people who live here back the | :37:06. | :37:11. | |
Government. It is predominantly Alawite, the same sect as President | :37:11. | :37:20. | |
Assad. Al-Mashei Pizzeria seems to be doing fine. | :37:20. | :37:23. | |
The owner tells me in areas loyal to the Government, life is good. | :37:23. | :37:30. | |
Even here, he says, they feel the effects of the war. | :37:30. | :37:34. | |
TRANSLATION: Not a month goes by without me having to close for | :37:34. | :37:37. | |
three or four days, either there is no gas, people aren't going out, or | :37:37. | :37:46. | |
because of the rockets. And there's a place to complain. At | :37:46. | :37:50. | |
the governor's office, local people air their grievances to the man in | :37:50. | :37:55. | |
charge. This mantles the Governor of Several requests, the most | :37:55. | :38:02. | |
important is bread, plus gas, fuel, water. It covers pretty well | :38:02. | :38:10. | |
everything. The governor reassures them their needs will be met. Then | :38:10. | :38:16. | |
it is my turn to ask questions. I put it to him that he's running a | :38:16. | :38:21. | |
divided city? TRANSLATION: Can you judge the situation of Homs by | :38:21. | :38:26. | |
looking at a few kilometres, a couple of neighbourhoods, Homs is a | :38:26. | :38:30. | |
big province, like the size of Holland, if you couldn't visit one | :38:30. | :38:38. | |
street, does that mean all of Homs is troubled? The areas that the | :38:38. | :38:40. | |
streets where there is still trouble and fighters, what are you | :38:40. | :38:44. | |
planning to do, are you going to push in there as well? As in you | :38:44. | :38:50. | |
did in Baba Amr to clear the I can't remember? TRANSLATION: | :38:50. | :38:55. | |
didn't do anything in Baba Amr. It wasn't us who did all this in Baba | :38:55. | :39:01. | |
Amr, it was these armed terrorist groups who kidnap the civilians and | :39:01. | :39:11. | |
blow up the buildings, the army had to push them out. We didn't blow up | :39:11. | :39:18. | |
the buildings. He receives the Greek or the docks head, before the | :39:18. | :39:21. | |
war there was people of all sects living in harmony. Here as | :39:21. | :39:25. | |
elsewhere, battles are drawn on sectarian lines. The bishop wants | :39:25. | :39:31. | |
to send a different message. belong to, not to this side or that | :39:31. | :39:41. | |
:39:41. | :39:45. | ||
side, I'm in the middle. But I think that it is my epistle to the | :39:45. | :39:49. | |
world, that here in Syria we are not looking at each other as if we | :39:49. | :39:53. | |
are different groups, or different, let's say, religions, fighting each | :39:53. | :40:00. | |
other. But war is tearing at the fabric of | :40:00. | :40:08. | |
this city, neighbourhood by neighbourhood. We tried to advise | :40:08. | :40:14. | |
the mainly Sunni area of Derbalba, the Government told us it was too | :40:14. | :40:17. | |
dangerous, even though the Government took it back last month. | :40:17. | :40:21. | |
Much of Homs is under their control again, for now. But so much has | :40:21. | :40:27. | |
been lost here. There is so little trust. There is a checkpoint now on | :40:27. | :40:36. | |
almost every corner. This one is being manned by women. They call | :40:36. | :40:41. | |
themselves "The Lioness's" loyal to a President whose name means "the | :40:41. | :40:46. | |
lion". They are part of called Popular Committees, set up by the | :40:46. | :40:49. | |
Government to reinforce security. Putting a brave face on this war. | :40:49. | :40:55. | |
But there is no hiding what's gone on in Homs. What's happened across | :40:55. | :40:59. | |
Syria, and what more is still to come. | :40:59. | :41:05. | |
The kinds of conditions we found in Homs have echos elsewhere in Syria, | :41:05. | :41:12. | |
including Aleppo and Damascus. We have a PhD student in economics | :41:12. | :41:22. | |
at Brunel university and former residents in Syria. Did the scenes | :41:22. | :41:28. | |
in the piece correspond to how your family is living? It reminded me of | :41:28. | :41:34. | |
how my family are living back home in different places in Syria. | :41:34. | :41:40. | |
Giving you an example of my city, Deraa, it has been surrounded by | :41:41. | :41:45. | |
Assad forces for over 70 days now. 200,000 people fled out of this | :41:45. | :41:53. | |
city to the surrounding areas. They left without food, with lack of | :41:53. | :41:59. | |
fuel and water and heating, with this cold weather. Children dying | :41:59. | :42:03. | |
from hunger and cold weather. have not been back for about two | :42:03. | :42:07. | |
years. When you get sent pictures, or see pictures of where you are | :42:07. | :42:12. | |
from, the streets that you know so well, do you recognise it? Actually, | :42:12. | :42:17. | |
here is the very sad part of that, to be honest, when I look at some | :42:17. | :42:21. | |
pictures coming from my city, looking at the street, thinking | :42:21. | :42:26. | |
where is that street, do I know this city, is this actually my city. | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
It is like all the buildings are destroyed, schools and mosques and | :42:30. | :42:35. | |
all this, I don't recognise it. said 200,000 people have left the | :42:35. | :42:40. | |
city, you said they went to the surrounding area, to do what? Where | :42:40. | :42:44. | |
are they living? How are they living? They are living a miserable | :42:44. | :42:48. | |
life. They are living in the surrounding areas, like it's forest | :42:48. | :42:53. | |
or something like that, or other cities. Some how it is safer, but | :42:53. | :43:00. | |
they are living on very, very minor basis of life. They are struggling | :43:00. | :43:05. | |
to get bread, water and food and all these things. The electricity | :43:05. | :43:13. | |
is shut for ten hours, and it is like some of friends boasting on | :43:13. | :43:17. | |
Facebook saying if we are -- saying on Facebook, if they are not dying | :43:17. | :43:24. | |
from the rockets or the bullets but from the cold. On the one hand in | :43:24. | :43:28. | |
the film you see the awful scenes, and on the other hand you see | :43:28. | :43:32. | |
people eating pizzas, admittedly they can't always make them. Is | :43:32. | :43:41. | |
there a degree of normal life going on? In certain areas, but they are | :43:41. | :43:46. | |
pro-Assad, so the Government let them live their lives, they don't | :43:46. | :43:56. | |
interfere. One shout in an area, saying" Assad down", or" Assad step | :43:56. | :44:01. | |
down", or "free Syria", you will see massive bullets and massive put | :44:01. | :44:05. | |
down. Why aren't you treating your people equally? How long do you | :44:05. | :44:10. | |
think it will go on for, it must seem endless to you? To be honest | :44:10. | :44:15. | |
we don't know how long this will go on. As long as the fighting is | :44:15. | :44:20. | |
between the two parties, it is going on and on, it might go for | :44:20. | :44:25. | |
years, or it might end tomorrow. Nobody knows. So it should be like | :44:25. | :44:30. | |
some solution other than war. Now a quick look at tomorrow | :44:30. | :44:40. | |
:44:40. | :44:59. | ||
morning's front page, quite a few The MoD is supporting French | :44:59. | :45:02. | |
efforts through logistical support, ministers are reviewing the | :45:02. | :45:06. |