23/01/2013 Newsnight


23/01/2013

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark.


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Tonight the Prime Minister dazzled his party with his speech on Europe.

:00:17.:00:22.

Is he selling a false prospectus? When we have negotiated add new

:00:22.:00:25.

settlement, we will give the British people a referendum, with a

:00:25.:00:29.

very simple in or out choice, to stay in the European Union, on

:00:29.:00:37.

these new terms, or to come out all together. It will be an in-out

:00:37.:00:41.

referendum. And what of Labour, Ed Miliband ruled out a referendum,

:00:42.:00:48.

and hey pres toe, an hour later, it was all change. Was this UKIP's big

:00:48.:00:52.

day, or has David Cameron shot their fox. We will speak to Nigel

:00:52.:00:58.

Farage, to the Europe Minister and the Liberal Democrats and Labour.

:00:58.:01:03.

The Czech calm pass dor gives us an EU -- ambassador gives us an EU

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view. Immigration is the perceived

:01:08.:01:11.

problem with Europe, the focus now is on Romanians, they get the right

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to come here at the end of the year. Newsnight has been to Portsmouth

:01:15.:01:18.

where there are real concerns that a new influx could push local

:01:18.:01:22.

resources over the edge. There is not enough room for anybody else,

:01:22.:01:26.

basically. That's it, they should put a stop to it. Whatever Brussels

:01:26.:01:29.

thinks, we ain't got enough room. Also tonight, the public Health

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Minister has suggested you can tell a child's background from how obese

:01:34.:01:44.
:01:44.:01:48.

they are, with junk food rife amongst the poor, is she right?

:01:48.:01:52.

There was an air of general excitement amongst Conservatives

:01:52.:01:59.

today, that their leader had delivered a speech they could all

:01:59.:02:04.

coalesce around. The Prime Minister wants a new European treaty based

:02:04.:02:09.

on five principle, based on his five principle.

:02:09.:02:15.

He would put the deal to a country in a referendum. Asking in or out

:02:15.:02:20.

on EU membership. We will be assessing his chances of

:02:20.:02:23.

success throughout the programme tonight W my guests, but first, a

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quick reaction. First of all, the Europe Minister, David Lidlington,

:02:27.:02:32.

have you hooverered up, what was it David Cameron called UKIP, the

:02:32.:02:37.

"fruitcakes loan ies and closet racists" their votes with today's

:02:37.:02:40.

announcement? The Conservative Party will be happy with today's

:02:40.:02:44.

speech, but more importantly I think there will be a real sigh of

:02:44.:02:47.

relief in the country that there they will get the final say.

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Frankly, there has been a lot of poison that has got into the debate

:02:51.:02:54.

about the merits of our European membership. Because people have

:02:54.:02:57.

felt they are not being trusted to have the final say. That's taken

:02:57.:03:01.

out of it now, we can have a proper debate on the merit. I think we can

:03:01.:03:06.

win that debate for a strong yes vote. What about the Shadow Europe

:03:06.:03:09.

Minister, people know now if they want to vote on Europe there is no

:03:10.:03:14.

point in voting on Europe, Emma Reynolds? We think at a time of

:03:14.:03:17.

great economic difficulty it is wrong to cast a cloud of

:03:17.:03:20.

uncertainty over inward investment over four years. British business

:03:20.:03:23.

are saying the same thing. referendum? We have said today we

:03:24.:03:27.

are against a referendum, and also planning a referendum at an abitary

:03:27.:03:34.

time in the future. We will talk about this, Ming Campbell is this a

:03:34.:03:38.

deal-breaker for future coalitions, that you would never do a deal with

:03:38.:03:41.

Conservatives on an in-out referendum? That is a long way down

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the track. Just as the referendum is a long way down the track. One

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thing that is certain we are about to have a period of four or five

:03:48.:03:50.

years of unprecedented constitutional and economic

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uncertainty. How that can be conceived to be in the interests of

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this country, I simply cannot imagine. Nigel Farage, surely it is

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game over for UKIP, you got what you wanted, an in-out referendum, a

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discussion on Europe. You are completely redundant? You are trite

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say one thing, it has been a great -- Right to say one thing. It has

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been a great victory for us. Debate whrooing Britain should leave the

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EU is a genie out of the bottle that won't come back. We will

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discuss all that later, but today's speech from David Cameron has been

:04:23.:04:27.

six months in the planning, rescheduled several times, and no

:04:27.:04:31.

doubt seen countless drafts. Did the Prime Minister see what was his

:04:32.:04:35.

central goal. Tonight the Conservative Party unite around him,

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- to unite the Conservative Party around him and -- We were expecting

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a rushed sketch from the Prime Minister, as he tried to fill a

:04:48.:04:52.

difficult political void. Instead we got a carefully drawn

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philosophical vision. What David Cameron thinks Europe should be.

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This morning too we got a primary coloured rendering of the British

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political scene. How can we sensibly answer the question, "in

:05:05.:05:08.

or out", without being able to answer the most basic question,

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what is it exactly that we are choosing to be in or out of? The

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European Union, that emerges from the eurozone crisis, is going to be

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a very different body. It will be transformed, perhaps beyond

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recognition, by the measures needed to save the eurozone. We need to

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allow some time for that to happen, and help shape the future of the

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European Union. So when the choice comes, it will be a real one. A

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real choice between leaving, or being part of a new settlement in

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which Britain shapes and respects the rules of the single market.

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David Cameron managed to tread that tight rope between Europhobia and

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eurofillia, between a European audience and a domestic audience,

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he took his euro-sceptics to theering like a man on a wie, on a

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journey towards -- tottering like man on a wire to almost sounding

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like Tony Blair, once he had renegotiated he said he would

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campaign for a yes vote. I think we can achieve after negotiation to a

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situation where Britain can be comfortable, and all our countries

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can thrive. When that referendum comes, let me say now that if we

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can negotiate such an arrangement, I will campaign for it with all my

:06:25.:06:30.

heart and all my soul. Within the day, the German

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Chancellor, Angela Merkel, said she would work for a deal with David

:06:32.:06:36.

Cameron, that she was prepared to talk about British wishes, but she

:06:36.:06:41.

cautioned that Britain's demands were one of many. How did he win

:06:41.:06:45.

over Merkel and win over euro- sceptic, it is the old Irish joke,

:06:45.:06:50.

"I wouldn't start from here", there was five principles, the return to

:06:50.:06:54.

power for member states, that he wanted progress on, it was progress

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on principles rather than particulars before he put it to the

:06:57.:07:02.

British people, as he put it. The key question was that David Cameron

:07:02.:07:06.

couldn't negotiate successful, would he still vote yes in the

:07:06.:07:09.

referendum? Who goes into a negotiation hoping and expect to go

:07:09.:07:13.

fail. That might be the approach you take, it is not my approach. I

:07:13.:07:16.

go into a negotiation hoping and believing and expecting to succeed,

:07:16.:07:19.

and for all the reasons I have given today, I think there's every

:07:19.:07:23.

chance of success. If we went to the situation where you wanted a

:07:23.:07:25.

British settlement, treaty change would be really difficult. But it

:07:25.:07:31.

could, for example, get a declaration on the principle that

:07:31.:07:34.

says things should be done at a member-state level wherever

:07:34.:07:38.

possible. Maybe he could get an informal veto on strategic

:07:38.:07:42.

interests in the financial sector. He could maybe get the repeal of

:07:42.:07:45.

some legislation, something that bothers really most of the

:07:45.:07:50.

Conservative Party with the Working Time Directive. Most of this could

:07:50.:07:52.

be done without treaty change. Today is possibly the best day the

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Prime Minister will have on Europe for quite a while, because the road

:07:55.:07:59.

ahead will not be easy. In particular in his speech he sets

:07:59.:08:02.

out a date by which the referendum has to have happened, the middle of

:08:02.:08:05.

the next parliament. He did this to please his euro-sceptic, but he

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also did it knowing that many around him worry that timetable is

:08:09.:08:14.

going to be very tight to meet. think it will be a hard slog, there

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is a lot of work involved in this. There is a lot of work building

:08:17.:08:20.

alliances, building friendships, making sure we bring other people

:08:20.:08:24.

in. The great thing we have working with us is the fact that the EU now

:08:24.:08:28.

is in a state of flux. There is this process of integration going

:08:28.:08:33.

on, where the eurozone countries are going to integrate much more,

:08:33.:08:37.

politically and economically, Britain can't be a member of that

:08:37.:08:42.

integrated block, and nor are most of the non-eurozone members. There

:08:42.:08:46.

needs to be a new type of relationship. There is a challenge

:08:46.:08:51.

of getting all the details to the British electorate before 2019, we

:08:51.:08:55.

have a huge review of cost and benefits of the EU membership, that

:08:55.:08:59.

won't finish until the end of 2014, it will be difficult to formulate a

:08:59.:09:02.

position before the British elections. The second thing is we

:09:02.:09:06.

only go for the British solution if the pan-European one fails. They

:09:06.:09:10.

are not really due to start that until 2015 at the earliest, so

:09:10.:09:14.

knowing what we will be voting on in the elections, in terms of a

:09:14.:09:18.

Conservative Party policy at the moment, is a little bit unclear.

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Four hours after the Prime Minister's speech, the Labour

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leader clarified his own position, that he opposed David Cameron's

:09:25.:09:29.

referendum. The most basic question of all, is do you want a

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referendum? I do, does he? position is no, we don't want an

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in-out referendum. But let me finish. (shouting) my position is

:09:44.:09:49.

precisely the same as his position, when we voted together, yeah, when

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we voted together in October 2011 against an in-out referendum. My

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position hasn't changed, it's his position that's changed Mr Speaker.

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And here is the truth, six months of planning a speech on a

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referendum, he can't even tell us whether it is a yes or a no.

:10:11.:10:15.

Over the coming months and years, the Conservatives will try to paint

:10:15.:10:20.

Ed Miliband as an out-of-touch dweller of primrose hill, at odds

:10:20.:10:26.

with the British public. Labour will try to paint David Cameron as

:10:26.:10:30.

an out-of-touch twel dweller of Middle England, out-of-touch with

:10:30.:10:34.

big business. For David Cameron it is a question of R & R,

:10:34.:10:38.

renegotiation and referendum, for Ed Miliband it will be the reRs,

:10:38.:10:44.

reform and reject that referendum. But before we get to the parliament,

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what will be the effect Europe will have on this parliament, there were

:10:48.:10:52.

signs that the Liberal Democrats in this parliament would not endorse

:10:52.:10:56.

David Cameron's pledge to put the draft legislation of the referendum

:10:56.:11:01.

down before 2015. In a private meeting civil servants were told

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they were not allowed to be involved in drafting the

:11:04.:11:06.

legislation, since Liberal Democrats would not allow it to be

:11:06.:11:09.

a coalition bill. With the Prime Minister's speech today, it was

:11:09.:11:12.

confirmed that the issue of Europe could dominate the parliament, and

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it could end up curtailing this one. Before we hear from the politicians

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again, we went back to some of those who we talked to on Newsnight

:11:20.:11:22.

recently, about how Britain's relationship with Europe affects

:11:22.:11:27.

their lives, to find out what they made of the Prime Minister's speech.

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My name is Peter Carroll, I'm a part-owner of a small-to-medium

:11:32.:11:41.

sized business, operating in road freight in the UK and across Europe

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My first reaction was do the politicians know how high the

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stakes are. With half our exports going to Europe, if we get it wrong,

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we could be a Third World economy within ten years. The stakes are

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enormous. The thing we want is fairness. If drivers based in

:11:56.:12:00.

Britain work to the same level of discipline and control and

:12:00.:12:04.

regulation as they do in other countries, at least it's fair. What

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we would be worried about, is that you may end up in a situation where

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different countries are working to different drivers' hours rules,

:12:12.:12:15.

different safety standards on vehicles, different employment

:12:15.:12:18.

regulation, and there is a danger, then, that it is not fair and we

:12:18.:12:21.

can't compete. It feels to us in the business community, sometimes,

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as if the politicians are constantly finding something else

:12:25.:12:31.

to tackle, some other issue, whether it be gay marriage, Europe,

:12:31.:12:34.

NHS reorganisations, all very important subjects and issues, but

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there is one thing more important at the moment than all of those, it

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is this, concentrate 100% on getting the UK economy growing.

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Because unless we have a growing economy, we're going nowhere.

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My name is Ben Molyneux a junior doctor in the final year of my

:12:55.:12:59.

training gaised in London. Listening to the speech yesterday,

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Mr Cameron referenced the hours junior doctors can work, and the

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fact that the EU shouldn't set the hours that doctors should work in

:13:08.:13:12.

the UK. I would disagree, we have gone from an average of 100 hours

:13:12.:13:18.

to 48 hours a week. What that has meant is improvment to patient

:13:18.:13:21.

safety, tired doctors and people make mistakes. In my field of work

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I can't afford to be tired and make a mistake as a result. I think the

:13:26.:13:28.

European Working Time Directive has been a really positive thing for

:13:28.:13:32.

patients and doctors. What I want to know is will my training be

:13:32.:13:37.

high-quality, will the hours I do be safe, will my patients be cared

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for adequately, if David Cameron can do something outside of Europe

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that can deliver that, that's OK. I'm Guy Smith, I'm a farmer from

:13:46.:13:51.

east Essex, I come from a 1,000- acre mixed farming. He's right to

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bring the issue to a head. I don't like this half in half out never,

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Neverland we seem to be in, we need to make our mind up if we are in or

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not. As a father I get access to continental markets which is

:14:09.:14:14.

important, I receive �130,000 worth of support. But the point is, I'm

:14:14.:14:19.

happy to have that level of support reduced, as long it is reduced

:14:19.:14:22.

multilaterally across Europe. As long as the playing field stays

:14:22.:14:27.

level, so I get a low-level of support, or no support, and so does

:14:27.:14:33.

my equivalent in France, or Poland or Germany, then I'm convinced as a

:14:33.:14:38.

British farmer I can compete. On a purely personal level my reaction

:14:38.:14:41.

to the European Union is to remember that my grandfather died

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on the beaches of Malta, my uncles died on the beaches of Normandy, my

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great uncle died on the field of Flanders, and those men I never met,

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their ghosts probably tell me that the stability and prosperity that

:14:54.:14:59.

the European Union has contributed to is worth hanging on to. Let's

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talk about all of this, our guests are the Europe Minister, David

:15:03.:15:08.

Lidlington, the UKIP lead e Nigel Farage, Shadow Europe Minister,

:15:08.:15:13.

Emma Reynolds, and the Lib Dem former leader, Ming Campbell.

:15:13.:15:16.

David Lidlington, first of all, David Cameron will say it is

:15:16.:15:20.

successful whatever happens, isn't he? What he's going into, the very

:15:20.:15:24.

start of a negotiation, is confident in his approach. Spelled

:15:24.:15:27.

out today a vision, not just for the Conservative Party or Britain,

:15:27.:15:30.

but of the challenges that Europe as a whole needs to face up to,

:15:30.:15:33.

competitiveness, democratic accountability, and the principle

:15:33.:15:37.

that is should govern how Europe as a whole addresses those. In many

:15:37.:15:42.

ways he used very emotive language, some of it was very Europhile and

:15:42.:15:46.

so forth, you can set out a vision and dream, but unpicking a lot of

:15:46.:15:50.

these treaty negotiations, unpicking a lot of the different

:15:50.:15:52.

elements are quite a different thing, that is not just about

:15:52.:15:55.

Britain, is it? It is not just about Britain. But what your

:15:55.:15:59.

question, I think, omits, is the fact that Europe is already

:16:00.:16:03.

undergoing a process of change, that is driven in large part by the

:16:03.:16:06.

pressure on those of our friends who are in the single currency, to

:16:06.:16:09.

integrate much more closely. How do you make that fair to those who are

:16:09.:16:14.

out as well as those who are in. It is driven by the need to respond to

:16:14.:16:18.

the challenge of Asia and Latin America. If Europe doesn't raise

:16:18.:16:21.

its game in competitiveness, every European country will struggle in

:16:21.:16:25.

the future. Let's set out the time scale, what he was saying in his

:16:25.:16:29.

speech is in the next three years in reshaping that you actually want

:16:29.:16:34.

from Europe, that is, of course, without your coalition partners

:16:34.:16:36.

here taking part in any of this. You are going to spend the next

:16:36.:16:41.

three years reshaping it t then you are going to go to the country with

:16:41.:16:48.

a mandate for renegotiation? First of all. Where is the complete meat

:16:48.:16:53.

on the bone? There won't be three years of standing still, although

:16:53.:16:56.

Ming Campbell and I don't agree on European matters, we have a

:16:56.:16:59.

coalition agreement where week by week we are delivering on the

:16:59.:17:02.

process of European reform, that doesn't require treaty change, that

:17:02.:17:06.

is under way on things like banking union, and fisheries. We will make

:17:06.:17:10.

clear as a Conservative Party, certainly before people come to

:17:10.:17:14.

vote at the next general election. No red lines. What it is we will be

:17:14.:17:16.

putting to the people at the general election, as the position

:17:17.:17:19.

that a Conservative Government, if elected with a majority, will take

:17:19.:17:23.

into the treaty negotiations, which I would be expected to take place

:17:23.:17:26.

early in the next parliament. have the situation where you are

:17:26.:17:32.

doing this big review of competences, as it is called, which

:17:32.:17:39.

runs sem meser by sem meser, d smeser by smeser running the whole

:17:39.:17:42.

gamit. You have that coming up as a report card. Will that be the basis

:17:43.:17:47.

on which you are going to call for a change? It will be very important

:17:47.:17:51.

as a source of evidence to inform the evidence and detainment for

:17:51.:17:55.

example, I will want to look at what business and business

:17:55.:17:58.

organisations say in their evidence, these are the things we like and

:17:58.:18:01.

want to keep in European negotiations, these are the things

:18:01.:18:08.

we want to change. In the next three years you will go to the

:18:08.:18:15.

European Summits as a coalition. And you will be ripping apart the

:18:15.:18:18.

Liberal Democrats, what will be going on? I have said, as a

:18:18.:18:21.

coalition we work in accordance with the coalition agreement. That

:18:21.:18:24.

includes a commitment to European reform, in which Conservative and

:18:24.:18:29.

Lib Dem ministers, alike, have been able to work very constructively

:18:29.:18:32.

together and get good results. know you didn't want to discuss

:18:33.:18:36.

this with the others, I will go straight to Ming Campbell, how will

:18:36.:18:40.

you operate in the next three years when David Cameron appears to be

:18:40.:18:43.

questioning, and his ministers, questioning every single aspect of

:18:43.:18:46.

Europe? You could say the general election started here today.

:18:46.:18:49.

Everyone knows, by the time the general election comes, then the

:18:49.:18:54.

two parties will be separate, with separate manifestos. How can you

:18:54.:18:57.

present a united front on Europe in the next three years? With great

:18:57.:19:00.

difficulty is the answer to your question. Because for the next two

:19:00.:19:04.

or three years, every piece of legislation, every speech, every

:19:04.:19:07.

decision made will be seen through the prism of the referendum. It is

:19:08.:19:11.

just like Scotland. Where exactly the same thing has happened. Now

:19:11.:19:14.

that creates a degree of uncertainty, which, for example, if

:19:14.:19:19.

you are considering making a large scale investment in the United

:19:19.:19:24.

Kingdom, foreign investors will say there is too much uncertainty

:19:24.:19:26.

involved here. Now we understand that Angela Merkel has said she's

:19:26.:19:31.

willing to do a deal. This is a story in the Telegraph, she hints

:19:31.:19:36.

at a deal for Cameron? What sort of deal. And if it is not good enough,

:19:36.:19:40.

will David Cameron come back in due course come back and say vote no in

:19:40.:19:44.

the reference DUP, because -- referendum, because I have failed

:19:44.:19:48.

to achieve what I set out to achieve. Ming Campbell, begin you

:19:48.:19:52.

look back at the reshuffle and you realise there is not a single Lib

:19:52.:19:58.

Dem in the Foreign Office, was it the grand plan? I don't think it

:19:58.:20:01.

was, I have spoken to Nick Clegg about this, he knows my view, it is

:20:02.:20:05.

not something I would do for a whole variety of reasons. But that

:20:05.:20:10.

doesn't stop us having a clear view that what the Prime Minister has

:20:10.:20:12.

introduced today is wholly contrary to the interests of the country, it

:20:12.:20:15.

is more in the interests of the Conservative Party than the country,

:20:15.:20:21.

it is more about UKIP than the UK. Let's talk about UKIP for a moment,

:20:21.:20:24.

Nigel Farage, do you think there will be a pact at the next election

:20:24.:20:27.

with Tories who have specifically said they will vote out the

:20:27.:20:30.

referendum? Watching the Prime Minister, watching William Hague

:20:30.:20:34.

and the Europe Minister, the more I see of them today the less I trust

:20:34.:20:38.

them. This is a deliberate tactic to kick the can down the road for

:20:38.:20:43.

five years or more. What they have done is a five-year campaign to

:20:43.:20:46.

keep us in. I don't think there is an intention to have a serious

:20:46.:20:49.

European debate, they want to close it down, ahead of the next election,

:20:49.:20:53.

thinking we will go away. We are not, and I think the prospects of

:20:53.:20:56.

us doing a deal with David Cameron are very unlikely. No deal with

:20:57.:21:00.

David Cameron, I'm asking would you do a deal with Tories who say they

:21:00.:21:03.

will vote for an out on the referendum? That is not on my

:21:03.:21:09.

agenda at the moment. On my agenda are the big county councils this

:21:09.:21:13.

year, and a big European election in 2014. You said before the speech

:21:13.:21:17.

there would be a great many calls, you would take them, from

:21:17.:21:20.

disgruntled Conservatives after the speech, has your phone been

:21:20.:21:26.

ringing? I think he has done enough to keep them on side. So your phone

:21:26.:21:30.

hasn't rung? He has done enough. Were there any calls? I answered it

:21:30.:21:34.

twice, he has done enough to keep the euro-sceptics on his

:21:34.:21:38.

backbenches satisfied for the moment. Within a few weeks we will

:21:38.:21:43.

talk about the Romanian accession, and this issue hasn't gone away.

:21:43.:21:46.

will come to that later in the programme. If David Cameron has

:21:46.:21:50.

been speeching for the -- preparing for the speech for six months, Ed

:21:50.:21:54.

Miliband knows it has been coming for six months, when he stood at

:21:54.:22:00.

the despatch box, he didn't get it right did he? We have had a

:22:00.:22:05.

consistent position for a year. I was standing beside the Reverend

:22:05.:22:13.

minister voting no to an in-out referendum. Douglas Alexander to h

:22:13.:22:18.

to temper it later that there wouldn't be an in-out referendum,

:22:18.:22:23.

and saying they weren't definitely against it? Our position is

:22:23.:22:26.

consistent and clear, we are not in favour of an in-out referendum, but

:22:26.:22:29.

you can never say never in foreign affairs. It could be that there is

:22:29.:22:33.

a situation in the future. But we will if there is a transfer of

:22:33.:22:36.

powers. Let's stick with that, this is yet another position, what you

:22:36.:22:40.

are saying now, is that never say never in politics. Again Labour

:22:40.:22:44.

says there is no red lines, then, actually, what you are telling the

:22:44.:22:47.

viewers tonight is it is possible that Labour could go for an in-out

:22:47.:22:50.

referendum, within the next five years, it is possible? We are not

:22:51.:22:54.

planning to promise an in-out referendum at an abitary point in

:22:54.:23:00.

the future. I think the question is, why 2017/2018? Because the last

:23:00.:23:03.

time we had treaty change in the European Union it took a hell of a

:23:04.:23:08.

lot longer than that. We don't know the Liberal Democrats' position

:23:08.:23:13.

definitely on that yet? Every re- election they promise a referendum

:23:13.:23:23.
:23:23.:23:23.

and they all break it. Hang on, hang on. Do you support an in-out

:23:23.:23:26.

referendum? Our position is, if there is any movement of powers

:23:26.:23:30.

from Westminster to Brussels, then we will put that to the keep in a

:23:31.:23:33.

referendum. It is perfectly straight forward and clear. It is

:23:33.:23:36.

what the Conservatives signed up to in 2010. You might be the only

:23:36.:23:40.

party that goes into the next election not promising a referendum

:23:40.:23:43.

of some sort on future European membership? We have also said we

:23:43.:23:46.

would not repeal that legislation, there would be a referendum if

:23:46.:23:50.

there was a transfer of power from Westminster to Brussels. That is

:23:50.:23:54.

clear. Nigel Farage, as somebody was saying today, that this is the

:23:54.:23:58.

most powerful day for a party that doesn't have an MP? That's right.

:23:58.:24:01.

We have changed the fundamental nature of the debate in this

:24:01.:24:04.

country. Withdrawing from the European Union is now a respectable

:24:04.:24:07.

debate, the trouble is, that all these parties, all these three

:24:07.:24:13.

parties will now kol allless around trying to keep -- kol aless around

:24:13.:24:18.

trying to keep us as part of the European Union, we will be only

:24:18.:24:21.

people battling against. What do you make of that, that it is all a

:24:21.:24:24.

nonsense, you are not serious about fundamental change, and actually

:24:24.:24:28.

you can be bought off very quickly with a quick hit from Angela

:24:29.:24:37.

Merkel? It is good to have early indication that is important

:24:37.:24:40.

partners like Germany, the Netherlands and the Czech Republic,

:24:40.:24:43.

want to get into a serious negotiation with the UK on matters

:24:43.:24:48.

affecting the future of Europe. What I would say to Nigel, it is an

:24:48.:24:53.

important pledge for the Prime Minister to give to hold a decisive

:24:53.:24:56.

in-out referendum. By saying trust the people, it will enable a very

:24:56.:25:01.

serious mature debate to take place, as my Irish counterpart has said,

:25:01.:25:04.

their experience of referendum is people then focus on the content of

:25:04.:25:09.

the issue. I think we will win the debate and that will be that.

:25:09.:25:15.

Thank you very much indeed. In a moment, I can speak to the

:25:15.:25:18.

aforemention Czech Republic's ambassador, a man who has sat in

:25:18.:25:23.

quite a few EU negotiation. First, staying up late for us, in Davos is

:25:23.:25:28.

Peter Sutherland, who in a checkered career has been an EU

:25:28.:25:31.

Commissioner, and director of the World Trade Organisation, and now

:25:31.:25:38.

non-executive chairman, he has been before, the chairman of BP. You are

:25:38.:25:43.

there in Davos, David Cameron will be there tomorrow. What has been

:25:43.:25:50.

the reaction to the speech today, has it been earth-shattering?

:25:50.:25:55.

hardly say that I know what the overall reaction was, maybe I was

:25:55.:26:00.

speaking to kindred spirits, the people I spoke to were shocked by

:26:00.:26:03.

the speech that was given. It constituted a shock on a number of

:26:03.:26:08.

fronts. First of all, the blunt repuddation of some of the basic

:26:08.:26:14.

concepts that the European Union is about. Which is something more than

:26:14.:26:19.

simply having a market. Secondly, the prolonged period of negotiation

:26:19.:26:23.

of a withdrawal of competences, a repatriation of competences, which

:26:23.:26:27.

are unidentified. Which is going to lead to uncertainty, at a time when

:26:27.:26:33.

Europe is in the midst of a serious crisis. So I think a lot of people

:26:33.:26:37.

have been some what shocked by the bluntness of what is now clearly

:26:38.:26:41.

going to be an acrimonious debate. A lot of people would say, in

:26:41.:26:46.

business, that debate needs to be had, afterall you are a former

:26:46.:26:49.

chairman of British Petroleum, there has been a lot of disquiet in

:26:49.:26:53.

business about certain of the EU rules, where people have found to

:26:54.:26:58.

be hindering? Of course there are issues that people have with Europe.

:26:58.:27:02.

But there is an overwhelmingly positive view, I believe in

:27:02.:27:05.

business, about Britain being in Europe, and being in the European

:27:05.:27:10.

Union. Of course one can argue issues on one side or another, but

:27:10.:27:14.

the overall balance of account is very clearly in favour of an

:27:14.:27:21.

integrated market, but more than that, a more intergreated Europe

:27:21.:27:28.

integrated Europe. I don't believe there is a negative view about the

:27:28.:27:31.

European Union in business, or about the future. I think many

:27:31.:27:35.

business leaders would demur at an idea of an integrated Europe, they

:27:35.:27:41.

may want an integrated market, but the integrated union smacks of a

:27:41.:27:48.

political nature that many move back from? It depends how you

:27:48.:27:52.

define it. We signed up for a greater union of the peoples of

:27:52.:27:56.

Europe, that was expressly repudiated today. Most believe we

:27:56.:28:01.

are on a course to an undefined destination, but greater

:28:01.:28:03.

integration between the peoples of Europe and the states that

:28:03.:28:08.

represent them. Most of us hope that will continue. I know this is

:28:08.:28:13.

certainly kicking the can five years down the road. Just let's say

:28:13.:28:17.

there is a referendum, in-out of Europe, a Conservative Government

:28:17.:28:20.

has returned, there is this referendum and the British people

:28:20.:28:24.

say "no" to Europe. What will the long-term consequences be,

:28:24.:28:28.

politically, culturally, economically? I personally think it

:28:28.:28:34.

would be very bad for the UK. But it would all depend on what

:28:34.:28:39.

relationship was permitted between Great Britain after leaving the

:28:39.:28:42.

European Union with what remains. The access to the market it is

:28:42.:28:46.

given and so on. I think it would be very bad for Britain, but it

:28:46.:28:50.

would also be very bad for Europe. Because Britain has brought a

:28:50.:28:55.

liberal attitude to trade and trade negotiations, and globalisation,

:28:55.:28:59.

which is positive. And it genuinely has brought an element of respect

:28:59.:29:03.

for the rule of law, that was important for Europe. I think both

:29:03.:29:08.

Europe and the United Kingdom would lose. How precisely they would lose

:29:08.:29:13.

is impossible to foretell, without knowing the detail of the

:29:13.:29:16.

negotiations to leave the European Union, if that ever happens.

:29:16.:29:23.

Thank you very much for joining us. I turn to the Czech ambassador,

:29:23.:29:28.

Michael Zantovsky. Ambassador, you are a more recent recruit to Europe,

:29:28.:29:30.

ten years standing now from the accession states. Is David Cameron

:29:30.:29:37.

leading wait for you all to follow? Do you see the need for some

:29:37.:29:41.

fundamental reform, in terms of fairness, democratic involvement,

:29:41.:29:48.

competition, so forth? First of all I would say that I was rather

:29:48.:29:51.

reassured listening to the Prime Minister today, becauses he put it,

:29:51.:29:58.

he offered a positive vision of Europe, not a negative vision. We

:29:58.:30:04.

believe it would be very, very bad if the UK left the EU, and it would

:30:04.:30:09.

be bad for Europe too. Do you think, do you have sympathy with his

:30:09.:30:13.

position, do you think it is more about quelling unrest in the party,

:30:13.:30:17.

or actually at his party, a genuine desire for reform? I believe that

:30:17.:30:26.

he set out the goals that he set out were not particularly heretical,

:30:26.:30:31.

they were about adaptation to the changes currently taking place in

:30:32.:30:35.

the eurozone, and about equitable treatment between the eurozone

:30:35.:30:38.

member countries and the non- eurozone member countries. They

:30:38.:30:43.

were about competitiveness, and they were about democratic

:30:43.:30:47.

accountability. That is like being for peace and motherhood. That may

:30:47.:30:51.

well be the case, fundamentality, in terms of negotiating a different

:30:51.:30:55.

treaty, and negotiating change, we still don't know what he actually

:30:55.:31:00.

wants. If he wants to renegotiate certain treaties, look at the

:31:00.:31:04.

Common Fisheries Policy, 21 years, nothing will happen in three years?

:31:04.:31:08.

Absolutely. He wasn't very specific about the policies he wanted to

:31:08.:31:16.

change. We take it as an opening position in a process of dialogue,

:31:16.:31:20.

and possibly negotiation, and every negotiation is open-ended. Yes,

:31:20.:31:24.

when the accession states, in 2003, for that to happen, other

:31:24.:31:30.

Governments had had to give up powers, that was a process? It is a

:31:30.:31:34.

process. I believe it is a British song that says "you can't always

:31:34.:31:38.

get what you want", but on the other hand, if you try sometimes.

:31:38.:31:44.

But he also, very briefly, he talked about new member states.

:31:44.:31:48.

That he actually saw a widening of Europe? That is true, we believe,

:31:48.:31:51.

just like the Prime Minister believes, that the European

:31:52.:31:55.

integration should stay open-ended, that there should be room for new

:31:55.:32:02.

members to come in, in the future, and that is an important principle

:32:02.:32:05.

of the European Union. Thank you very much.

:32:05.:32:10.

Rightly or wrongly our relationship with Europe has come, for many, to

:32:10.:32:14.

be defined by immigration. Following the arrival of thousands

:32:14.:32:18.

from accession countries over the last nine years. At the end of the

:32:18.:32:21.

year, Bulgarians and Romanians get the right to live and work here.

:32:21.:32:25.

How many can we expect to come. We reported from Romania on their

:32:26.:32:30.

plans to travel, today we were in Portsmouth, meeting the small

:32:30.:32:33.

Romanian community already established there. Portsmouth is

:32:33.:32:38.

now home for thousands of new Europeans. The population grew by

:32:38.:32:44.

nearly 10% in a decade. As the European Union has expanded,

:32:44.:32:48.

so this island nation has had to allow people from ever-more

:32:48.:32:52.

countries to cross the water and seek work here. These new

:32:52.:32:55.

communities need school places for their children, they need

:32:55.:32:59.

healthcare, they need housing. The impact can be felt, not only in the

:32:59.:33:05.

big cities, but also the smaller ones, like Portsmouth. Many of the

:33:05.:33:09.

new arrivals are Catholic, some choose to send their children here,

:33:09.:33:15.

to St John's Cathedral School in the city centre. A handful of

:33:15.:33:20.

Romanian children are pupils here. This man drops his daughters off

:33:20.:33:24.

before heading to work. He's one of the scores of self-employed

:33:24.:33:29.

Romanian taxi drivers in Portsmouth. The family share a small, rented

:33:29.:33:35.

house, with two single men, but he wants to stay, for good. Here it is

:33:35.:33:39.

the perfect place for me, because, for me it worked out from the

:33:39.:33:44.

beginning. It is still working out. It is still OK for me. But do you

:33:44.:33:48.

earn a lot of money? I don't know what you mean by a lot of money.

:33:49.:33:52.

For me it is a lot of money. It is different from Romania. We are

:33:52.:33:56.

making a living here, we have a decent life here. We can afford to

:33:56.:34:01.

buy more clothes for our daughters, more food. He thinks some, but not

:34:01.:34:05.

many Romanians will come to Britain, when restrictions are lifted. He

:34:05.:34:11.

doesn't think they should be able to claim benefits. If you come in a

:34:11.:34:14.

country, like coming here, at least you should work legally, pay taxes

:34:15.:34:19.

for the five or ten years, then you can have some requests, OK you can

:34:20.:34:23.

have maybe because now I'm short of money, that you can help me with

:34:23.:34:26.

something. At least to have a period, you can't come here and the

:34:26.:34:30.

next month you get benefits. Regardless of state benefits,

:34:30.:34:36.

migrants can put a strain on local services. Between them, these

:34:36.:34:42.

pupils speak 27 languages. In this reception class, 90% of the

:34:42.:34:46.

children do not speak English at home. Hard for the teachers, they

:34:46.:34:49.

have to use actions to help them learn to read.

:34:49.:34:54.

It is very much a challenge, but it is also enriching for our whole

:34:54.:34:57.

school community. It is a very diverse world in which we live, the

:34:57.:35:00.

school reflects the diverse world that the children meet day in day

:35:00.:35:06.

out, when they go in and around Portsmouth.

:35:06.:35:10.

This school is now heavily oversubscribed, across Portsmouth,

:35:10.:35:15.

the council has to provide new places. Unemployment in Portsmouth

:35:15.:35:19.

is lower than the national average. Even with the thousands who have

:35:19.:35:24.

moved here in recent years. Little housing has been built. Compared

:35:24.:35:29.

with a decade ago, a higher proportion of people rent from

:35:29.:35:32.

private landlords a smaller proportion own their own home. The

:35:32.:35:36.

local advice centre told us many people complained that rents were

:35:36.:35:41.

rising, and some said the properties were in very poor

:35:41.:35:45.

condition. The 2011 census showed nearly 80,000 are you minutians

:35:45.:35:53.

living in England and Wales, -- Romanians living in England and

:35:53.:35:57.

Wales. Less than 400 were in Portsmouth, there are signs that

:35:58.:36:02.

has grown, there is a Romanian food shop. A Romanian journalist based

:36:02.:36:06.

in Britain, said she would expect Romanians to come to small cities

:36:06.:36:11.

like this, but not in large numbers. They will be inclined to research

:36:11.:36:18.

for themselves, and to look for smaller cities and towns to

:36:18.:36:21.

establish themselves for a better quality of life.

:36:21.:36:27.

Rather than the big cities like London. For now, Portsmouth council

:36:27.:36:31.

say the migration's most significant affect is the shortage

:36:31.:36:35.

of school places. That could change if many more people came, all in a

:36:35.:36:39.

short time. But the council leader says the migration is a small price

:36:39.:36:46.

to pay, for the benefit of EU membership.

:36:46.:36:49.

There has become an ambition, by people who can afford it, that they

:36:49.:36:56.

would like to retire somewhere that is a bit warmer than in Britain

:36:56.:36:59.

today. To be in Spain or France or whatever. You can't do that if you

:36:59.:37:03.

are not part of the EU. That is part of the deal. And the other

:37:03.:37:08.

part of the deal is as free movement of labour, around the EU.

:37:08.:37:13.

A view shared by some, not all, in a busy local pub. We can move

:37:13.:37:17.

around the same as they can move here. So I don't think it will, it

:37:17.:37:20.

will even itself out. There is not enough room for anybody else,

:37:20.:37:24.

basically. That's it, they should put a stop to it. Whatever Brussels

:37:24.:37:30.

thinks, we ain't got enough room. Talking today of Britain and Europe,

:37:30.:37:34.

the Prime Minister did not mention migration. But with the referendum

:37:34.:37:41.

announced, others will. The issue of growing childhood

:37:41.:37:46.

obesity is something that exercises doctors, nutritionist, and recently

:37:47.:37:50.

celebrity chefs. Jamie Oliver's campaign for healthy school meals

:37:50.:37:53.

generally met with favourable response, though some parents and

:37:53.:37:57.

children thought they were being preached at. Now the public Health

:37:57.:38:01.

Minister, Anna Soubry, has claimed that where once poor children were

:38:01.:38:07.

likely to resemble Oliver Twist, they were now more like Billy

:38:07.:38:13.

Bunter. Her example, not mine. Anna Soubry is one of the more

:38:13.:38:18.

outspoken ministers, in charge of the health sport folio, she was

:38:18.:38:24.

castigating the food producering, warning them to cut fat and sugar

:38:24.:38:32.

or find legislation against them, which went off the book.

:38:32.:38:36.

She said poor children used to be skinny ruoints because of poor diet,

:38:36.:38:43.

she says they are now likely to be fat because of the fast food. She

:38:43.:38:48.

says it was heart-breaking and put parents in the firing line. Is she

:38:48.:38:58.

attacking people with the least chance of helping themselves?

:38:58.:39:03.

I'm joined my guests today. Harry Mount, is she right? The statistics

:39:03.:39:07.

show she's definitely right, and should be praised for exposing a

:39:07.:39:11.

truth, even if it is embarrassing, is true, and everyone secretly

:39:11.:39:15.

knows it. Where does the fault lie? It seems she very much is pointing

:39:15.:39:18.

the finger, and does it lie with the food companies, does it lie

:39:18.:39:23.

with the supermarkets or parents? think it is completely personal

:39:23.:39:30.

choice. I think we all know what is good and what is bad for us. George

:39:30.:39:34.

Orwell made the point brilliantly, he said if liech isn't great and

:39:34.:39:39.

you are worse off, if you are given the choice between a piece of apple

:39:39.:39:42.

or the chocolate, you will have the chocolate, it is odder to choose

:39:42.:39:46.

the apple, it is because the middle-class are brilliant at self-

:39:46.:39:53.

denial and they will go for the apple. Do you agree? Obesity is

:39:53.:39:57.

something affecting the whole population. 60% of adults are

:39:57.:40:00.

overweight or obese, the health consequences are staggering.

:40:00.:40:08.

Increase in heart disease, cancers and diabetes. The comments are

:40:08.:40:10.

counter-productive, they are more politically motivated. She has

:40:10.:40:14.

given the appearance of stigma advertising the poor. When she

:40:14.:40:16.

should be concentrating her efforts on the real culprits, the food

:40:16.:40:20.

industry, in my opinion. They have been allowed to hijack the food

:40:20.:40:24.

environment, we have been oversupply of healthy foods

:40:24.:40:27.

everywhere, but they are able to get away with irresponsible

:40:27.:40:30.

marketing, cheap junk food to vulnerable people. Do you think

:40:30.:40:34.

that is where the fault lies and politicians aren't cracking down on

:40:34.:40:37.

food labelling, content and so forth of the big food giants?

:40:37.:40:41.

think that is one aspect. I also think the marketing of unhealthy

:40:41.:40:44.

foods as well is something that needs to be tackled. I want to say

:40:45.:40:47.

one more thing that is really important. The current Government

:40:47.:40:50.

policy is one of voluntary agreement with the food industry. I

:40:50.:40:56.

think that is doomed today failure. It is a failed experiment, we know

:40:56.:40:59.

that the food industry only care about profit. And more importantly

:40:59.:41:04.

than that, what it actually is doing, it's like asking the British

:41:04.:41:08.

Petroleum to encourage cycling, it won't work. You have to deal with

:41:08.:41:11.

the fact that it is true, for the first time in human civilisation,

:41:11.:41:16.

the richer you are, the thinner you are. And it suggests...Let's Deal

:41:16.:41:19.

with the food companies, would you not be in favour of much sharper

:41:19.:41:23.

legislation, you know, we have the idea of traffic lights and so forth,

:41:23.:41:28.

but actually saying there is a certain amount of, a level of salt

:41:28.:41:31.

above which no processed food should go at all? No I don't agree

:41:31.:41:34.

with that, I think we should be allowed to eat whatever we want.

:41:35.:41:39.

People know these things are bad for them it. It is very patronising

:41:39.:41:42.

to suggest some how these things are being forced on them. Sometimes

:41:42.:41:46.

these things are cheaper, that is the trick here for people who don't

:41:46.:41:51.

have the money? It is extremely easy to make good food cheaply, a

:41:51.:41:55.

pound of onions costs nothing. are saying people living in

:41:55.:41:58.

horrific circumstances, with horrible places to cook, they don't

:41:58.:42:02.

want to go into the kitchen, and try to prepare a meal on a packet

:42:02.:42:07.

of onions? They want to eat bad food. It is personal choice.

:42:07.:42:11.

think the problem we have is that because the food environment is

:42:11.:42:17.

full of very unhaulty product, choice becomes an -- unhealthy

:42:17.:42:21.

product, choice becomes an illusion. Where you don't have choice, where

:42:21.:42:24.

is personal responsibility. Harry talks about personal responsibility,

:42:24.:42:29.

but it is more a political ideology in this aspect. The science tells

:42:29.:42:32.

us, there are lots of foods marketing at healthy, when they are

:42:32.:42:37.

the complete opposite. A lot of low-fat products loaded with sugar

:42:37.:42:40.

and carbohydrate, where is the informed choice there? You have to

:42:40.:42:43.

be clear and know about nutrition to know what is in these, we won't

:42:43.:42:50.

talk about which ones they are. There are certain orange drinks

:42:50.:42:53.

branded as good for you when clearly they aren't. If you are

:42:53.:42:56.

making an informed choice you have to tell people what is in stuff?

:42:56.:42:59.

Sure, but if you are saying there is no choice, you have to accept

:42:59.:43:02.

there are people who are making the choice. The richer you get the more

:43:02.:43:05.

likely you are to get the choice. The conclusion of the argument is

:43:05.:43:08.

suggesting that the poor are incapable of making that choice.

:43:08.:43:12.

I'm saying they are perfectly capable of making that choice, they

:43:12.:43:16.

know what is bad and what is good for them. The same way the middle-

:43:16.:43:20.

classes do, they should be allowed to eat bad food. At the beginning

:43:20.:43:23.

of the conversation you said that Anna Soubry was brave to speak out,

:43:23.:43:26.

but it is really none of her business? It is worth pointing out

:43:26.:43:30.

the fact that it is the truth that the richer you are the healthier

:43:30.:43:33.

you eat. But at the same time people should be allowed to choose

:43:33.:43:36.

what they eat F they want to get fat they should be allowed to.

:43:36.:43:41.

Where does that put the position of the NHS? It is having huge impacts

:43:41.:43:47.

on the NHS. Obesity-related illnesses cost the NHS �5 billion a

:43:47.:43:50.

year. The obesity rates are getting worse, not better, it will only

:43:50.:43:55.

have a greater impact. This is not a problem for the poor, but the

:43:55.:43:58.

whole population. As a cardiologist I treat people with heart disease

:43:58.:44:02.

on a daily basis, yes, there are people from poor backgrounds who

:44:02.:44:06.

can't afford healthier food, that is where the Government steps in,

:44:06.:44:11.

whether it is subsidising healthy food and taxing. But there are

:44:11.:44:16.

people from affluent backgrounds who have unhealthy diets, and

:44:16.:44:21.

survive heart attacks and they say they wished they knew more about

:44:21.:44:25.

the food and the impact on health. If we learn from history, the most

:44:25.:44:27.

important public health advances happened through regulation,

:44:27.:44:32.

whether it is safe drinking water, smoke-free buildings, not cosy

:44:32.:44:35.

voluntary agreements with the guilty industries. I think the

:44:35.:44:40.

problem is people like bad food, like they like drink and cigarettes,

:44:40.:44:44.

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