29/01/2013 Newsnight


29/01/2013

How long will British troops be in Mali? Plus new childcare benefits, plastic pollution and award-winning novelist Hilary Mantel. With Kirsty Wark.


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Transcript


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This programme contains repetitive images from the start.

:00:10.:00:14.

Britain deploys troops to west Africa, more than 300 to train and

:00:14.:00:17.

shore up the military, not to fight. Are we going to get dragged into

:00:18.:00:22.

someone else's war. After French paratroopers helped secure Timbuktu,

:00:22.:00:25.

David Cameron heads for Nigeria, to meet their Prime Minister. What

:00:25.:00:31.

will our role be, and for how long? We're in Mali.

:00:31.:00:38.

Anti-semetic, anti-Israeli, or just anti-Netanyahu. After Rupert

:00:38.:00:44.

Murdoch apologises for Gerald Scarfe'S grotesque cartoon in the

:00:44.:00:52.

Sunday time, we have our panel to discuss whether or not it is anti-

:00:52.:00:56.

Semitic. Plastic pollution is killing wildlife across the world,

:00:56.:01:01.

it causes hormonal changes to life in the oceans, what is it doing to

:01:01.:01:06.

us humans. The plastic particles are sponges for other contaminants,

:01:06.:01:10.

they absorb the materials and become toxic. The Government

:01:10.:01:13.

finally unveils its changes to childcare, in weeks where we see

:01:13.:01:16.

financial help given to millionaires and struggling mothers

:01:16.:01:20.

alike, we consider universalism in the age of austerity. Why shouldn't

:01:20.:01:24.

it go to someone like me, I have paid my tax, I'm not earning now, I

:01:24.:01:27.

should be entitled to something back from the Government. Even

:01:27.:01:31.

though your husband earns well? Even if my husband earns well.

:01:31.:01:35.

There is no stopping Hilary Mantel, tonight she's added the Costa price

:01:36.:01:41.

to her two man bookers, for her portrayal of Thomas Cromwell.

:01:41.:01:44.

We will hear from her -- ol letter Cromwell. We will hear from her

:01:44.:01:48.

shortly. -- Oliver Cromwell. We will hear

:01:48.:01:51.

from her shortly. Good evening, when the Defence

:01:51.:01:53.

Secretary announced today that approximately 330 British troops

:01:53.:01:57.

are being sent to west Africa, to support the French mission against

:01:57.:02:03.

Islamist rebels in Mali, 40 military advisers to Mali itself,

:02:03.:02:08.

and others to train in nearby countries and others made up of

:02:08.:02:11.

support personnel, Philip Hammond assured MPs the soldiers wouldn't

:02:11.:02:15.

have a combat role. They are very clear about the risks of mission

:02:15.:02:19.

creep. According it a previous incumbent in the job, Malcolm

:02:19.:02:25.

Rifkind, there was the risk of years of asymmetrical conflict

:02:25.:02:31.

without solution. In a moment we will go live to the

:02:31.:02:36.

Malian capital, first, here is our diplomatic editor, Mark Urban.

:02:36.:02:40.

So, with French intervention in Mali just weeks old, Britain has

:02:40.:02:43.

joined the fray. Hundreds of troops are to be sent on what the

:02:43.:02:48.

Government insists is not a combat mission. It is not our intention to

:02:48.:02:52.

deploy combat troops, we are very clear about the risks of mission

:02:52.:02:56.

creep, and we have defined very carefully the support that we are

:02:56.:03:02.

willing and able to provide to the French and the Malian authorities.

:03:02.:03:06.

He had been responding to fears that the Helmand mission too had

:03:06.:03:10.

started with hopes that not a shot would be fired. We need greater

:03:10.:03:15.

clarity, Mr Speaker, on the exact role of our British troops. The

:03:15.:03:18.

Government has said that they are not going to be placed in a combat

:03:18.:03:23.

role, but there are a host of grey areas between combat roles and

:03:23.:03:26.

support roles. Given America's reluctance to lead,

:03:26.:03:30.

at the moment, this type intervention could become the norm.

:03:30.:03:34.

Western countries have very few forces to spare, and even France,

:03:34.:03:39.

with a few thousand in Mali, has talked with cutting back soon.

:03:39.:03:44.

So, increasingly, the emphasis will be on training up African troops to

:03:44.:03:50.

do the job. Britain already has 160 or so

:03:50.:03:54.

troops in East Africa, centered on Kenia. They have helped train

:03:54.:03:57.

African contingents in Somalia, which is now regarded as something

:03:57.:04:01.

of a model for future operations. There is an enduring commitment of

:04:01.:04:06.

about 50 in Sierra Leone, and a small team in South Africa too.

:04:06.:04:11.

Today's announcement of 40 trainers to Mali, and 200 to other parts of

:04:11.:04:18.

west Africa, follows the deployment of 60 RAF personnel to Senegal, to

:04:18.:04:24.

support a Sentinel surveillance plane, and 20 to Bamako to assist

:04:24.:04:28.

with airlifting operations. The shift signalled eight days ago is

:04:28.:04:31.

becoming real. More than ever this evolving threat demands an

:04:31.:04:35.

international response. It must be one that is tough, intelligent,

:04:35.:04:39.

patient and based on strong international partnerships. First,

:04:39.:04:43.

we should be clear that this murderous violence requires a

:04:43.:04:47.

strong security response. We must be realistic and hard-headed about

:04:48.:04:53.

the threats that we face. Our role is to support the Governments of

:04:53.:05:01.

combat this menace, as many are doing at a high cost.

:05:01.:05:04.

Contingents from several west African countries, co-ordinated by

:05:05.:05:12.

will be several thousand in all. But whether that will be enough,

:05:12.:05:19.

and how effective they might be, are open to question. The force is

:05:20.:05:29.

is going to have to be supported and backed by that country. Whether

:05:29.:05:38.

Nigeria can afford to send many It already has troops deployed, or

:05:38.:05:44.

committed to Somalia and Sudan, and is currently fighting two counter

:05:44.:05:47.

insurgency campaigns at home. France's assault on Timbuktu

:05:47.:05:51.

Airport, and taking of the town, has scattered the opposition. It

:05:51.:06:00.

may also have been enough to create and the more numerous Tuareg

:06:00.:06:10.
:06:10.:06:12.

seperatists who play host to them. had now split from the Al-Qaeda

:06:12.:06:14.

militants. So far so good, then, for the

:06:14.:06:19.

French intervention. In the longer term, it could get more complicated,

:06:19.:06:22.

though. The Malian army that collapsed a few month ago, had,

:06:22.:06:27.

afterall, been trained by foreign advisers. And the British found

:06:27.:06:32.

several years back in Sierra Leone, that one of their advicey teams got

:06:33.:06:40.

kidnapped, and they had -- advisory to rescue them, taking many lives

:06:40.:06:46.

in the process. The aid promised by success.

:06:46.:06:56.
:06:56.:06:59.

operating across the country, it business. But given the cuts to

:06:59.:07:03.

forces, their existing commitments, and public anxiety about entering

:07:03.:07:10.

another shooting war, the recent that outside powers are prepared to

:07:10.:07:17.

do. What's the reaction there to the news of the deployment in

:07:17.:07:20.

Bamako? Well, I talked to the Malian military spokesman this

:07:20.:07:27.

evening. He said the news of the British involvement was very

:07:27.:07:33.

welcome. For most ordinary Malians on the streets, they are much more

:07:33.:07:38.

aware at the moment, at least. French inter, and the support of

:07:38.:07:48.
:07:48.:07:49.

other west African -- French troops, the to get the north fully under

:07:49.:07:58.

control. We shouldn't look past the idea of guerrilla war going too far.

:07:58.:08:03.

The speed of the French advance shows there is a comparatively

:08:03.:08:06.

small number, it appears, of hardened Jihadi fighters. They

:08:07.:08:12.

don't have that much support among the general population. And the

:08:12.:08:18.

tactical alliance that they formed last year with ethnic Tuareg

:08:18.:08:25.

seperatists, now appears to be seperatists, want, if that is still

:08:25.:08:28.

possible, a negotiated route to awe Monday me. While everybody was

:08:28.:08:31.

really shock -- autonomy. While everybody was really shocked last

:08:31.:08:36.

year by the speed that the Islamists took the north. That was

:08:36.:08:40.

partly due to the Malian army being in disarray following the coup last

:08:40.:08:43.

year. Maybe those Islamists overreached themselves by moving

:08:43.:08:48.

south as they did at the beginning of this year, and therefore,

:08:48.:08:52.

provoking the French intervention. As we heard in the film one of the

:08:52.:08:56.

Tuareg leaders said they are indeed breaking away. Joining me is John

:08:56.:08:59.

Deverell, former director of defence and diplomacy at theed MoD,

:08:59.:09:09.
:09:09.:09:10.

crisis resolution, and assisted several African Governments on

:09:10.:09:20.

a former Colonel and assistant to Sierra Leone crisis, in his first

:09:20.:09:28.

British interview. First of all, do you think, of us going in a

:09:28.:09:32.

possibility of mission creep. My own view is this could happen. It

:09:32.:09:36.

is possible, but very unlikely. I think we will see in the

:09:36.:09:40.

experiences of the last few years. Clearly there are risks in terms of

:09:40.:09:46.

Whilst we are only there in a training capacity, there will be a

:09:46.:09:48.

need to potentially defend ourselves. Because exactly as what

:09:48.:09:55.

there could be a kidnap, or, indeed, British training forces could be

:09:55.:09:59.

operations like this, unless we are prepared to deal with the risks,

:09:59.:10:03.

which are themselves a measure of our sincerity in taking on the

:10:03.:10:07.

operation in the first place. the point about mission creep, what

:10:07.:10:11.

is your view? What Malcolm Rifkind said, is without a political

:10:11.:10:20.

In Sierra Leone, funnily enough, it is a similarity here, we were

:10:20.:10:30.
:10:30.:10:31.

focused, from the beginning, for role to play in bolstering up the

:10:31.:10:36.

local forces, and it was very much tied into a regional view of the

:10:36.:10:41.

situation, and a political solution. In Mali, at the moment, I think

:10:41.:10:46.

that is going to be the focus. Our force, from what I see, seems to be

:10:46.:10:51.

very much designed on the medium- term state, the training, much of

:10:51.:10:56.

which won't happen in Mali. Part of an EU training mission, and then

:10:56.:11:00.

the various assets, intelligence assets, which are really going to

:11:01.:11:10.
:11:11.:11:12.

Mali, to be able to capitalise on to go hear the report on the Tuareg

:11:12.:11:17.

political -- heartening to hear the It may be in terms of a future

:11:17.:11:20.

solution to Mali, something on the political side working well to do

:11:20.:11:24.

it. As was said, there is a possibility the trainers could be

:11:24.:11:28.

targeted. You have been in a position where there had to be a

:11:28.:11:32.

complete change of gear in Sierra Leone, that is very much possible.

:11:32.:11:42.
:11:42.:11:44.

countries but in Mali itself, where that is true. We have a small force

:11:44.:11:54.
:11:54.:11:59.

Mali, the French are in the lead what they are intending to do, and

:11:59.:12:09.
:12:09.:12:10.

political discussions. I think the important post-9/11, the Jihadist

:12:10.:12:17.

dealing with there. We were dealing with something that was a potential

:12:17.:12:23.

failed state. Earlier on today about failed states being a much

:12:23.:12:31.

That issue about Mali, the Government not being entirely

:12:31.:12:34.

needing to be shored up repeatedly, having problems in the north. It

:12:34.:12:36.

could be as David Cameron has said and said again on his way to

:12:36.:12:42.

Algeria, before he goes to Algeria, this is a generational move. A

:12:42.:12:46.

generational move doesn't sound like two or three years? You have

:12:46.:12:52.

an interesting paradox, on the one operation this involves, on the

:12:52.:12:58.

Leone is indicative, as other places have been, in the dangers of

:12:58.:13:02.

taking our attention away from somewhere, because we think the

:13:02.:13:12.

to take a wide view, the classic case of the needor burden-sharing.

:13:12.:13:20.

As Mark has said we have limited numbers, if more were needed, how

:13:20.:13:29.

resources, certainly in the short- term, which is why nations need to

:13:30.:13:39.
:13:40.:13:41.

support each other in this venture. British might be called on to give

:13:41.:13:51.
:13:51.:14:01.

difficult situation very quickly our specialist advice, our training

:14:01.:14:04.

and our intelligence assets can be exactly the right level, which

:14:04.:14:09.

gives support without getting us tied into a long haul ourselves.

:14:09.:14:18.

A cartoon in the Sunday Times, by one of Britain's most famous and

:14:18.:14:24.

depicting the Israely Prime Minister building a blood red wall

:14:24.:14:33.

called a furore. The caption read "let the peace continue", the board

:14:33.:14:39.

of British Jews reported the picture, saying it is reminiscent

:14:39.:14:45.

of the pictures found in the anti- semetic press. Rupert Murdoch

:14:45.:14:55.
:14:55.:14:56.

described the cartoon as grow tes international Holocaust day. He

:14:56.:15:00.

says he has never been anti-Semitic. The controversy has stirred up

:15:00.:15:03.

different sentiments in different parts of the Jewish community, not

:15:03.:15:10.

all agree it is anti-Semitic. One Jewish newspaper described it as

:15:10.:15:18.

grossly unfashion but not anti- Semitic. Firs I'm joined by the --

:15:18.:15:21.

first I'm joined by my guests. When you opened the paper on Sunday and

:15:21.:15:26.

saw the cartoon, what was your first reaction? I just saw a

:15:26.:15:36.

cartoon. This was one fair, this was offensive on Holocaust Memorial

:15:36.:15:45.

but it is political comment. One might argue it is bourne out of a

:15:45.:15:54.

us depict Israel and understand Israel in this way. As comment I

:15:54.:16:02.

didn't see it as anti-semetic, there was no big noses, or none of

:16:02.:16:08.

that Nazi imagery found in anti- Semitic cartoons. You would defend

:16:08.:16:13.

the right of the artist to be hard- hitting what about the timing?

:16:13.:16:20.

is very unfortunate. It takes me back ten years to a cartoon of Dave

:16:20.:16:26.

Brown, of Arial Sharon eating a baby. That appeared on Holocaust

:16:26.:16:34.

similar stir. timing and he's not anti-Semitic,

:16:34.:16:43.

and he didn't think it was? I know any are anti-Semitic. Do you think

:16:43.:16:50.

there is a particular issue. I mean, tell me about the blood libel, the

:16:50.:16:56.

idea that there is blood cementing the bricks in the wall. A lot of

:16:57.:17:04.

is? It is this 19th century notion that Jews would eat the blod of

:17:04.:17:11.

children. It goes back to 1144. Christian children to use their

:17:12.:17:19.

is the problem with visual imagery, I think it is the blood that has

:17:19.:17:28.

that mean, in essence, that you deibgt -- blood in any cartoon

:17:28.:17:38.
:17:38.:17:39.

That is a taboo? It is a bit of a taboo. This whole subject, religion

:17:39.:17:46.

is an emotional minefield, as the to it as. You have to tread very

:17:46.:17:50.

carefully. If you think that this cartoon is simply a political

:17:50.:17:55.

cartoon. Is it always legitimate, do you think, to attack a political,

:17:55.:17:59.

Netanyahu was democratically elected, if people don't think he's

:17:59.:18:05.

doing a good job, he's always a legitimate target? It depends on

:18:05.:18:15.
:18:15.:18:17.

how you attack him, the last time was political comment and not anti-

:18:17.:18:27.

of different Israeli flags if your recalled, and in the cartoon --

:18:27.:18:32.

furlled and in the cartoon they turned into missiles with the Star

:18:33.:18:38.

of David on them and he's depicted as a puppetmaster? That made no

:18:38.:18:44.

sense without anti-semitism, the notion of Israel as a puppetmaster.

:18:44.:18:50.

I hope the ambassador you will have on in a minute will forgive me,

:18:50.:19:00.
:19:00.:19:01.

Israel is crass in its diplomacy, rather than Israeli. Is the whole

:19:01.:19:09.

lot to vilify the Jews. Is that a bit of history a lot of people

:19:09.:19:13.

don't know or don't care about. Do we have to, as it were, get past

:19:13.:19:19.

that? It wasn't only the Nazi, if you look at mainstream press after

:19:19.:19:25.

the wa, especially in Australia, you get grotesque, Jewish

:19:25.:19:30.

stereotypes, hook-nosed, wealthy Jewish bankers, week after week

:19:30.:19:35.

after week, in the national press. It is nothing compared to the sort

:19:35.:19:45.
:19:45.:19:55.

of imagery we have seen here. Steve Bell made the point on the

:19:55.:20:05.

radio this morning, he said that Mr batted an eyelid. Which was a very,

:20:05.:20:13.

he was right, but it was a very thought to have killed, what,

:20:13.:20:19.

60,000 people in the last year, or been poncable for their deaths, in

:20:19.:20:27.

the last incursion to Gaza 158 Netanyahu are considered to be

:20:27.:20:32.

similar figure, without comment. I would like to turn to the

:20:32.:20:37.

ambassador to the UK, Daniel Taub. Clearly Hugo and Tim have a

:20:37.:20:44.

different view to you. Why are they wrong, and you believe it is an ity

:20:45.:20:50.

Semitic cartoon? I'm not sure if that is the main question here.

:20:50.:20:53.

Board of Deputies of British Jews said clearly that was what they

:20:53.:20:59.

believed? In a statement I put out on this, I did point out I thought

:20:59.:21:04.

this cartoon, which clearly echos images that have been used to

:21:04.:21:14.

from medieval times. It is not that demonise Jews but in Nazi times

:21:14.:21:20.

atmosphere that led to these disasters, these are images that

:21:20.:21:22.

have led to vicious murder and genocide, even. I think that coming

:21:23.:21:27.

from Israel, there is another cause for concern. Unfortunately, images

:21:27.:21:30.

like this are all too familiar to anyone from the Middle East,

:21:30.:21:34.

because we see them general low in the most extreme elements of --

:21:34.:21:38.

generally in the most extreme elements of the Arab press, where

:21:38.:21:44.

they are used to incite hatred, as part of a culture, including in

:21:44.:21:51.

suicide bombers. That is the background you say in

:21:51.:21:58.

the Middle East, but of course that of the concerns we are seeing is

:21:58.:22:08.
:22:08.:22:12.

Murdoch, but the editor of the paper today he actually apologised

:22:12.:22:21.

unreservedly and said it was have heard said that there aren't

:22:21.:22:29.

other cartoons. The blood, are you not allowed to have blood? With

:22:29.:22:36.

complexity, but the notion of a Jew withed blood, is something, which I

:22:36.:22:46.
:22:46.:22:48.

aware of. There is another question. semitism question isn't the real

:22:48.:22:57.

fair and acceptable comment? My feelings as an Israeli is clearly

:22:57.:23:02.

it isn't. The wall here is a to build. The decision to construct

:23:02.:23:07.

-- Israeli wanted to build. The decision to construct the barrier

:23:07.:23:17.
:23:17.:23:17.

was taken after a month where there small parts a wall, and it is

:23:17.:23:22.

would agree but and many would not. Because Binyamin Netanyahu is a

:23:22.:23:29.

very grown-up politician, he has times. Surely it is legitimate, as

:23:29.:23:39.
:23:39.:23:40.

idea of the construction of the Netanyahu's, it was actually the

:23:40.:23:44.

previous Government. The notion have been referred to has anything

:23:44.:23:54.
:23:54.:23:55.

to the -- misleading, far from a were a resuscitation of the Israeli

:23:55.:24:01.

potentially deliberately misleading. Is there a danger that by the

:24:01.:24:05.

reaction to this, a perfectly legitimate reaction, that there is

:24:05.:24:09.

a danger of shutting down argument? Anybody who has spent more than

:24:09.:24:13.

five minutes in Israel will not be afraid we are shutting down

:24:13.:24:17.

argument. We have lively debate and cartoons, but I don't think that

:24:17.:24:23.

respecting lively debate means that barred. I think everybody in

:24:23.:24:26.

newspapers concerned, and credit to the Sunday Times for apologising

:24:26.:24:33.

for this terrible mistake. You know, when historic and current

:24:33.:24:38.

sensitivities have to be respected. Later in the programme, we will be

:24:38.:24:43.

speaking to Hilary Mantel who has just won the Costa prize. First,

:24:43.:24:48.

you may have seen dramatic images of plastic debris left over from

:24:48.:24:56.

miles from where people leave. We know the stuff we can see. It can

:24:56.:25:02.

affect wildlife, seals around our coastline, to the albatross living

:25:02.:25:09.

in the ark pel geo. What are the plastic we can't see, tiny

:25:09.:25:19.

particles on other creatures and on Albatross spend most of their time

:25:19.:25:28.

at sea. Only venturing on land to raise their young.

:25:28.:25:33.

These legendary birds populate the Hawaiian islands of the north

:25:33.:25:40.

Plastic washed into the oceans from people living thousands of miles

:25:40.:25:46.

away is killing them. We can see with our own eyes the affect that

:25:46.:25:56.
:25:56.:25:59.

having an impact that is much more far reaching. A tome from the BBC's

:25:59.:26:07.

natural history unit, filmed here broadcast next year. They found

:26:07.:26:08.

turtles nesting in amongst plastic bottles, cigarette lighters and

:26:08.:26:14.

toys. And they found dead and dying birds. Albatross parents,

:26:14.:26:17.

unwittingly killing their young by feeding their chicks plastic,

:26:18.:26:25.

carried in as they forage for food in the sea. Some chicks die when

:26:25.:26:29.

sharp plastic punctures their bodies, others from star vague, as

:26:29.:26:34.

their stomachs fill with plastic they can't digest. You saw

:26:34.:26:42.

Yeah, what we found is every day we would be filming and there would be

:26:42.:26:46.

more and more carcasses on the beach. We can't tell ourselves what

:26:46.:26:51.

it was that killed them, what we do know from American scientists is

:26:51.:26:56.

they have autopsyed many of these birds, and they have found plastic

:26:56.:27:04.

in every single stomach of the dead bird. Ellen was part of the crew

:27:05.:27:11.

These are examples of the kinds of things found on the island.

:27:11.:27:17.

tops, the arm of a child's doll. She showed us some of the items

:27:17.:27:20.

scientists have found in albatross stomachs. There is this really

:27:20.:27:24.

jagged bit of plas he can. There is lots of different -- plastic. There

:27:24.:27:32.

is lots of different plastics from lots of different origins. Some of

:27:32.:27:37.

the plastic is illegally tipped at sea or litter from fishing, most

:27:37.:27:47.
:27:47.:27:50.

machines. But how does it get here? Floating debris and plastic is

:27:50.:28:00.
:28:00.:28:02.

carried to the Hawaiian archipelago, by systems and winds. It sits in

:28:02.:28:12.
:28:12.:28:15.

the north tropical high, made up of It is one of five giantic

:28:15.:28:21.

interconnected systems of ocean currents, each spiralling around a

:28:21.:28:26.

central point, drawing material inwards, which carries the plastic

:28:26.:28:31.

to Hawaii. These spirals can eject material out towards the Arctic and

:28:31.:28:37.

Antarctic, spreading material across the globe over time. It is

:28:37.:28:44.

in the Pacific will occur in the Atlantic. Just how far does the

:28:44.:28:52.

problem of plastic in the ocean see if it can be found in the

:28:52.:29:02.

coastal waters of Britain. Simon Vauxhall from the National

:29:02.:29:12.
:29:12.:29:12.

net through the water, the water but all the particles and the

:29:12.:29:17.

plankton are trapped within the net. They eventually come into this

:29:17.:29:25.

bottle at the end. minutes, and it will allow us to

:29:25.:29:29.

filter through around 400 tonnes of water.

:29:29.:29:35.

There has been a lot of research in the United States looking at how

:29:35.:29:39.

the plastic gets into the food chain. Certainly it is shown it

:29:40.:29:47.

gets into the valves, the mussels and the oysters in the seabed, they

:29:47.:29:53.

it. As we are filtering the water. They concentrate the plastics, it

:29:53.:29:59.

has been effect. It turns some of them into hem MAFF free indicts, we

:29:59.:30:09.
:30:09.:30:11.

don't know -- hermafphrodites, and chain these plastics go. The idea

:30:11.:30:15.

that these plastics can cause disturbing sex changes might sound

:30:15.:30:20.

bad enough. Another worrying affect is beginning to emerge. That is the

:30:20.:30:26.

filtration of just under 400 tonnes of water. We can see a few feathers

:30:26.:30:35.

to the lab and have a look under the microscope to see exactly what

:30:35.:30:41.

we have got. We can't see chunks of plastic debris like the pieces the

:30:41.:30:48.

team saw in Hawaii. It is tiny we are looking for. This is where

:30:48.:30:53.

You can see in there we have some plankton, we have some sea plankton,

:30:54.:30:57.

they are the animals and the plants. You can see the cell particles, you

:30:57.:31:02.

can see distinctively the plastic particles. With the sharper edges?

:31:02.:31:08.

Yeah. You can see down here there is zoo plankton tucked in amongst

:31:08.:31:13.

all the rubbish, the soil and so on. You can see heads and tails. We

:31:13.:31:19.

know big plastic has an affect on wildlife, whether plastic bags or

:31:19.:31:23.

bottles. Eventually it breaks down mechanically to smaller and smaller

:31:23.:31:28.

particles. The question is does have an impact? A few years it was

:31:28.:31:32.

assumed it was like roughage and didn't have a major impact. We know

:31:33.:31:36.

those very small plastic particles can mimic certain things like

:31:36.:31:41.

oestrogen, we know that has been impact. But also, these plastic

:31:41.:31:47.

particles are like spoings, they are like -- sponges, like magnets

:31:47.:31:52.

for other things, they absorb the material, and effectively they

:31:52.:32:02.
:32:02.:32:09.

become quite toxic particles. creatures in some parts of the

:32:09.:32:12.

world. But there is new evidence about our own food chain. I went to

:32:12.:32:20.

Plymouth to find out more. At the marine biology and ecology

:32:20.:32:24.

centre of Plymouth University, they study the impact of pollutants on

:32:24.:32:30.

our oceans and rivers, and the creatures that live in them.

:32:30.:32:35.

Marine scientist, Richard Thomson, was the first to describe the tiny

:32:35.:32:40.

fragments of broken plastics as microplastics, back in 2004. There

:32:40.:32:47.

is two concerns from a tok logical point of view. There is the the

:32:47.:32:51.

issue of absorbing chemicals from sea water, and the second question

:32:51.:32:56.

is about chemicals introduced into plastics from the time of

:32:56.:33:01.

manufacture, in order to achieve specific qualities of the plastic,

:33:01.:33:07.

its flexibility, as flame retardant, or microals. Is it when we don't

:33:07.:33:14.

have plastics as whole eye tomes but small particles, is -- items,

:33:14.:33:20.

but small particles, will chemicals be released then. We don't know the

:33:20.:33:27.

discovering, as in Hawaii, plastic is making its way into creatures in

:33:28.:33:33.

the wild. He look at fish in the English Channel, 500 or so across

:33:33.:33:35.

ten species, including mackerel and whiting. He found it, in small

:33:35.:33:39.

quantities, one or two particles per fish. It shows microplastics

:33:39.:33:43.

are widespread in the environment, not just in beaches, but the

:33:43.:33:47.

creatures that live in some of those environments. The next steps

:33:47.:33:52.

are to take information like that, from fish and other crewures, to

:33:52.:33:57.

understand, OK -- creatures, to understand OK, what are the

:33:57.:34:06.

concentrations, what is the plastic varying from species to species. In

:34:06.:34:10.

order to understand which particular combinations might

:34:10.:34:20.
:34:20.:34:22.

the potential for the microplastics anything being done to cut back on

:34:22.:34:27.

largist cosmetic manufacturers, Unilever, said this month it will

:34:27.:34:34.

stop using plastic microbads, it adds to shower shells and other

:34:34.:34:38.

products. Should the plastic industry do something? We are

:34:38.:34:43.

unhappy the plastics are in the ocean, we don't illegal leave it

:34:43.:34:47.

there and dump it in the sea. We need it back, first and foremost

:34:47.:34:57.

for recycling, but it is also a valuable form of heat and power.

:34:57.:35:02.

We know the plastic we can see is affecting wildlife in place like

:35:02.:35:08.

Hawaii, in front of our eyes. We know tiny fragments are being found

:35:08.:35:13.

all over the world, we know it is causing disturbing sex changes in

:35:13.:35:17.

some creatures. Its vital now more work is being done to find out

:35:17.:35:22.

the wild, and what that means potentially for all of us.

:35:22.:35:26.

The Government has finally announced plans to align our

:35:26.:35:30.

childcare with some of our European partner, bringing the number

:35:30.:35:36.

children looked after from four to five and six, depending on their

:35:36.:35:41.

which the Government will soon answer, is whether funding to pay

:35:41.:35:47.

for childcare will go to everyone, regardless of income, or targeted

:35:47.:35:54.

to need. This is a big ideolgical debate between universalism and

:35:54.:35:59.

means-tested awards. Bringing the magic of averages to

:35:59.:36:09.

the rescue of millions. One Winston *Beveridge rej did it. A system of

:36:09.:36:16.

insurance, marked out by one thing, oversized safety net, for the rich

:36:16.:36:22.

as well as more the rest. Because it announced something for

:36:22.:36:26.

everyone, when the Beveridge report was published here, in 1942, there

:36:27.:36:31.

were queues up and down the block. Soon when the coalition published

:36:31.:36:34.

their new childcare policy, it would be principles that are

:36:34.:36:42.

familiar, they would go for a tax same. If the system is to continue

:36:42.:36:49.

to work, does it need to have a little something for everybody.

:36:49.:36:59.
:36:59.:37:01.

benefits universal. As things stand, with childcare to the tune of

:37:02.:37:05.

�1,000 per family. This is what the minister in charge had to say this

:37:05.:37:06.

morning. We want to help working families,

:37:06.:37:11.

we know what a massive issue it is for people. All families, there is

:37:11.:37:14.

some debate about whether the better off should? All familiar

:37:14.:37:18.

lose who go into work, we want to help with their childcare --

:37:18.:37:22.

families who go into work, we want to help with their children's

:37:22.:37:27.

childcare. For mums like Ruth, you would have thought it would be

:37:27.:37:33.

welcome, and if it came to pass a welcome U-turn. In 2010 the

:37:33.:37:39.

coalition had signalled something time of scarcity there will be an

:37:39.:37:43.

end to policies for the rich as well as the less well off. Child

:37:43.:37:48.

benefit would be means-tested, she thinks that they made an error, her

:37:48.:37:53.

husband earns many times the average Sally. I have paid into the

:37:53.:38:01.

system and work -- Salary. I have I get it. I have worked hard to pay

:38:01.:38:08.

my tax, I'm not earning now, I back from the Government. Even if

:38:08.:38:18.
:38:18.:38:19.

who get the extra benefits, they get free council flat, and money

:38:19.:38:24.

towards milk for children. I have twins, I'm going through two tubs

:38:24.:38:28.

of milk, a week, which costs a lot of money. Sources in Government say

:38:28.:38:32.

their new universal policy should reward women to stay in work. It is

:38:32.:38:37.

good for gender equality, they say, and living standards. But they will

:38:37.:38:41.

have their critics. On childcare I think they are making a terrible

:38:41.:38:45.

mistake, they are bending over backwards to give a tax break to

:38:45.:38:53.

people, so long as they pay someone want to support their own children,

:38:53.:38:58.

and perhaps share the work and share the caring. Newsnight

:38:58.:39:03.

policy chief, is currently trying to iron out a rather serious

:39:03.:39:06.

wrinkle in their possible childcare offer. Right now the rich do stand

:39:06.:39:10.

to gain from any possible tax relief. Elsewhere, lower down

:39:10.:39:14.

system, the less well off stand to lose out. This is because of

:39:14.:39:18.

changes to tax credits, changes, and indeed cuts to other benefits,

:39:18.:39:22.

and the bringing in of the Universal Credit. Unless there is

:39:22.:39:26.

serious action, David Cameron might preside over a rather funny find of

:39:26.:39:31.

universalism, where the rich benefit and other people lower down

:39:31.:39:37.

get left behind. This is what they are worried about.

:39:37.:39:42.

Currently a middle become family with two children in childcare

:39:42.:39:48.

stand to make no more money, if the second earner ups their hours from

:39:48.:39:58.
:39:58.:40:04.

ten to Thierry hours. My sources in not worth it, I have to pay the and

:40:04.:40:10.

food, it is so expensive now, if the Government are willing to pay

:40:10.:40:18.

think people would be more willing to go back to work.

:40:18.:40:24.

As the result of much study into questions of social security...Many

:40:24.:40:29.

Thought Beveridge's baby, universalism, would be out with the

:40:29.:40:34.

bath water of benefit cuts, a policy for plenty, not many.

:40:34.:40:40.

Winter fuel, TV licenses, and other benefits vulnerable. In an era of

:40:40.:40:45.

fiscal restraint, choices have to be made about where universal is

:40:45.:40:50.

more or less important, where to proceed and where to advance.

:40:50.:40:54.

Universalism is most important where it is imbodied in shared

:40:54.:40:56.

services, people coming together meeting people from different

:40:56.:41:01.

backgrounds and making a common bond with each other, like in the

:41:01.:41:06.

NHS. It is more like a cash transaction between bank accounts.

:41:06.:41:15.

North of the border in Scotland, the Labour leader says universalism

:41:15.:41:23.

universal is important for the less well off as well as for the better.

:41:23.:41:33.
:41:33.:41:34.

One of the key things, when than it does to the people who are

:41:34.:41:37.

better off. You get this extraordinary thing that people who

:41:37.:41:45.

You get some of the nonsense stories, like free bus passes

:41:45.:41:50.

leading to millionaires taking the buses. I haven't all that many

:41:50.:41:57.

The case for universalism is made, so important, that universal

:41:57.:42:07.
:42:07.:42:10.

provision is what is require. Prime Minister agrees with him.

:42:10.:42:14.

Hilary Mantel has won this year's Costa prize for Bring Up The Bodies,

:42:14.:42:17.

her second installment of the trilogy about Thomas Cromwell,

:42:17.:42:24.

which began with Wolf Hall, both giving her a lot of booker win. She

:42:24.:42:29.

says she is flying through the air. I spoke to Hillary from a noisy

:42:29.:42:33.

awards ceremony earlier. I asked her reaction to winning the scam

:42:33.:42:40.

booker and the Costa prize in the same year? I'm astonished, I'm

:42:40.:42:47.

gratified. It is almost too much to take in. I laboured away for so

:42:47.:42:55.

many years in apparent obscurity, couple of years. It is all down to

:42:55.:43:05.
:43:05.:43:05.

your historical novels have a modern sensibility? I don't think I

:43:05.:43:10.

of the reasons he was such an unusual man, I made such -- and

:43:10.:43:15.

made such an impact on English history, is he was, in many ways,

:43:15.:43:24.

ahead of his time. I have not tried to force contemporary parallels f

:43:24.:43:34.
:43:34.:43:38.

the reader wants to draw them, that - Hillary, I know you like to work

:43:39.:43:48.

trilogy. Any clues, we know the broad story, how will you portray

:43:48.:43:51.

Thomas Cromwell? Cromwell has four more years to rise in the world.

:43:51.:43:58.

Until he is Earl of Essex, and in command of most of the great

:43:58.:44:03.

offices of state and the business of England. Life is dangerous,

:44:03.:44:12.

every day is a crisis, there is no down time. He's a tougher, harder

:44:12.:44:20.

man. His fall from grace will come very suddenly, in the summer of 540,

:44:20.:44:30.

as the reader well knows he will go to the scaffold, leaving his master,

:44:30.:44:40.
:44:40.:44:41.

Henry VII, very soon -- Henry Viii you find so joyful about writing?

:44:41.:44:45.

don't know if it is a joyful experience all of the time or most

:44:45.:44:50.

of the time. It is an endlessly experience. I never claimed that it

:44:50.:44:56.

makes you happy. It leaves you a lot of the time in a state of

:44:56.:45:01.

jittery vulnerability. But sometimes, just occasionally, once

:45:01.:45:05.

or twice in a writing life, you have the feeling that you are

:45:05.:45:11.

saying what you meant. Finally, are you heading for a Booker hat trick

:45:11.:45:21.
:45:21.:45:22.

with The Mirror And The Light? Fortunate light for my stability I

:45:22.:45:30.

don't have to think about that for morning's front pages. Hillary is

:45:30.:45:40.
:45:40.:45:40.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 42 seconds

:45:40.:46:23.

That's all from us tomorrow. More from us tomorrow night, a very good

:46:23.:46:33.
:46:33.:46:54.

from us tomorrow night, a very good night.

:46:54.:46:57.

Stormy wind in northern Scotland overnight. Rising rifle river

:46:57.:47:03.

levels in the south west, the rain -- rising river levels in the south

:47:03.:47:08.

west. Welcome sunshine in the west, some thundery. The heavier showers

:47:08.:47:12.

are pushing into northern England. Especially the North West, possibly

:47:12.:47:15.

arriving into the north Midland as well. We will see showers for a

:47:15.:47:19.

while across the south Midlands and southern England. During the

:47:19.:47:22.

afternoon those will tend to fade away. We should get more sunshine,

:47:22.:47:27.

a brighter day than it was today. Windy, gusty winds here, it won't

:47:27.:47:32.

feel as mild as it did today, when we saw temperatures of 14 degrees

:47:32.:47:35.

widely. Gusty wind across Wales, and across northern England,

:47:35.:47:39.

blustery winds in Northern Ireland. Most of the showers here probably

:47:39.:47:42.

in the morning, brighter during the afternoon. Sunshine in Scotland.

:47:42.:47:45.

Again some heavy showers in the morning, again it is very windy in

:47:45.:47:49.

the far north where the rain is still around. The showers will be

:47:49.:47:54.

on the sharp side, the possibility of hail and thunder on Wednesday,

:47:54.:47:58.

How long will British troops be in Mali? The cartoon that is either anti-semitic or anti-Netanyahu. Plus new childcare benefits, plastic pollution and award-winning novelist Hilary Mantel.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark.


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