12/02/2013 Newsnight


12/02/2013

Benefits claimants working in Poundland. Who killed PC Yvonne Fletcher? Horse meat in Welsh burgers? North Korean nukes. Turkey and the EU.


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Transcript


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Tonight, a big blow to the Government's flagship back to work

:00:13.:00:18.

scheme. A Court of Appeal declares the way it has been organised is

:00:18.:00:22.

unlawful. You can't be made to work for no

:00:23.:00:28.

pay without being told your rights to refuse and appeal. Today an

:00:28.:00:33.

unemployed graduate won our challenge to being owe bliepbled to

:00:33.:00:36.

work at Poundland, what about the others. What about those thrown off

:00:36.:00:40.

benefits because they didn't do the volumity work they were required to

:00:40.:00:45.

do. They may have compensation claims. Why hasn't the Employment

:00:45.:00:49.

Minister been running a work experience programme within the law.

:00:49.:00:54.

Last tonight, the murder of PC Yvonne Fletcher in London in 1984,

:00:54.:00:58.

by agents of the Gaddafi regime. The real targets, anti-Gaddafi

:00:58.:01:03.

protestors, they speak out for the first time. I like justice, an

:01:03.:01:06.

innocent young woman doing her duty got killed.

:01:06.:01:12.

The horse meat scandal at home in Britain. This time it's a Yorkshire

:01:12.:01:15.

slaughterhouse and a west Wales food processing plant. Raiding on

:01:15.:01:19.

suspicion of passing off horse as beef. The minister says he's

:01:19.:01:21.

shocked, we will ask his Labour shadow, whether she trusts mince

:01:21.:01:31.
:01:31.:01:33.

now. North Korea stages another nuclear bomb test which is

:01:33.:01:36.

described as provocative, is East Asia becoming the world's most

:01:36.:01:46.
:01:46.:01:50.

dangerous flash point. Good evening, Cait Reilly, a university graduate,

:01:50.:01:56.

who work at Poundland for no pay to keep her state benefit has won her

:01:56.:01:59.

court case, which is seen as a major blow to the way the

:01:59.:02:02.

Government run their back to work scheme. Cait Reilly claimed that

:02:02.:02:05.

all those who have been striped of benefits have a right to claim

:02:05.:02:09.

their mn money back, since it was taken -- their money back, since it

:02:09.:02:14.

was taken from them unlawfully we will hear from the minister in a

:02:14.:02:24.
:02:24.:02:25.

moment. The Government's back to work

:02:25.:02:29.

schemes had been compared by some of their harshest critic, to little

:02:29.:02:35.

more than the kind of slavery depicted in the film Metropilis,

:02:35.:02:38.

where skilled but unemployed people were forced to do unpaid work,

:02:38.:02:42.

which they didn't want and was no use to their career.

:02:42.:02:46.

A lightninging rod for the issue was a 24-year-old geology graduate,

:02:46.:02:51.

Cait Reilly, who was told to work, without pay, in Poundland for a

:02:51.:02:55.

fortnight. She claimed it was akin to forced labour. I have brought

:02:55.:02:58.

this case because I knew it was wrong when I was prevented from

:02:58.:03:02.

doing my voluntary work in a you museum, and forced to work -- in a

:03:02.:03:08.

museum and forced today work in Poundland for free. Those two weeks

:03:08.:03:11.

were a complete waste of time and the experience didn't help get a

:03:11.:03:15.

job. I was given no training, and I was left with no time to do

:03:15.:03:21.

voluntary work or search for jobs. The only beneficiary was Poundland,

:03:21.:03:25.

a multibillion pound company. Although the Court of Appeal found

:03:25.:03:29.

the law underpinning the programme was unlawful, the principle of

:03:29.:03:34.

being asked to work for free, in order to get benefits, ufs fully

:03:34.:03:38.

upheld. It is -- Was fully upheld. It is important to understand what

:03:38.:03:43.

the court did and didn't fine, it didn't find that forcing people to

:03:43.:03:51.

work or lose their benefits breaks human rights law. That would be

:03:51.:03:57.

forced labour or slavery, and this was not. Parliament did not tell

:03:57.:04:01.

the court in detail what the schemes entail. Parliament didn't

:04:01.:04:05.

get the opportunity to debate those schemes. These are the seven

:04:05.:04:10.

schemes affected by today's ruling, which are designed to help those on

:04:10.:04:14.

jobseeker's allowance to get back into the work force. Around 130,000

:04:14.:04:18.

people have already been sanctioned in some way for refusinging to work

:04:18.:04:21.

on one of these schemes, including being striped of their benefits

:04:21.:04:24.

entirely. If today's judgment is upheld in the Supreme Court, it

:04:24.:04:28.

could force the Government to repay millions of pounds to thousands of

:04:28.:04:33.

unemployed people. What about people who were thrown

:04:33.:04:35.

off benefits because they didn't do the voluntary work they were

:04:35.:04:41.

required to do. Well, they may have compensation claims, because the

:04:41.:04:45.

legal authority under which that happened, didn't exist, in reality.

:04:45.:04:49.

And the TUC says it's time the goiplt Government got back to the

:04:49.:04:53.

drawing board, to design -- the Government got back to the drawing

:04:53.:04:58.

board to design a waterproof scheme to people off the dole. We are

:04:58.:05:00.

supportive of schemes that get people back into work, and we think

:05:00.:05:05.

there is a role for good-quality work experience within the benefits

:05:05.:05:08.

system. We think there is a need for those claiming benefits to take

:05:08.:05:12.

action and find jobs, and if they are offered real paid work to take

:05:12.:05:15.

it. Nobody is arguing for people to be able to turn down real offers of

:05:15.:05:18.

paid work. What we are arguing against is schemes that require

:05:18.:05:22.

people to participate in unpaid work, in return for their benefits.

:05:22.:05:28.

This case also highlights that for many people their chosen career

:05:28.:05:32.

path and what the British economy can offer them are moving in

:05:32.:05:35.

different directions. In you are trained geology, archaeologist or

:05:35.:05:39.

journalist, big British business may not be beating a path to your

:05:39.:05:41.

door to offer you a work placement. This raise the question as to

:05:41.:05:46.

whether we are training people in career paths for which there are

:05:46.:05:50.

very few jobs. What's interesting is, who wants the really focused

:05:50.:05:53.

careers? Is it the individual or economy? If the economy wants it

:05:53.:05:56.

they will fund them. I think it is up to universities and business to

:05:56.:06:00.

work together to say we do need more geologists, we need

:06:00.:06:04.

archaeologists, whatever it happens to be, and make sure funding is in

:06:04.:06:07.

place for those individuals so, they can move through

:06:07.:06:11.

apprenticeships and internships and into industry. The Government is

:06:11.:06:14.

there to educate most of us with the mass of skills for the broad

:06:14.:06:17.

economy. And the higher education system does that broadly very well.

:06:17.:06:21.

You have to be prepared to take the jobs on offer.

:06:21.:06:26.

And now the lawyers are busy again, as the Government immediately

:06:26.:06:30.

introduced new rules, allowing she is unpaid back-to-work schemes to

:06:30.:06:35.

continue operating, whilst it appeals to the Supreme Court.

:06:35.:06:40.

The Employment Minister is with me. Minister, why has your department

:06:40.:06:42.

within so incompetent it can't even run the scheme? The court today has

:06:43.:06:45.

been very clear. That we can require people looking for work to

:06:45.:06:50.

take part in schemes like this, schemes that will help people get

:06:50.:06:52.

back into the labour market. Where the difference of opinion between

:06:53.:06:56.

ourselves and the court was how much detail there should be in

:06:56.:06:59.

regulation. We don't agree with the court's view. We think we should

:06:59.:07:02.

have the capacity to be flexible, to be creative and look at new ways

:07:02.:07:06.

to help people into work. But we respect the cower, we will appeal

:07:06.:07:09.

against it, in the meantime we have laid regulations today to make sure

:07:09.:07:13.

it is business as usual, and make sure we get people on to courses to

:07:13.:07:16.

help them into work. It is not just a difference of opinion, the Court

:07:16.:07:20.

of Appeal has found that a central scheme for this Government, getting

:07:20.:07:25.

people back to work, and using the methods you have is wrong and

:07:25.:07:31.

unlawful? No it has quashed the regulations t hasn't said we can't

:07:31.:07:35.

do it. That is like saying they agreed today is Tuesday, it said

:07:35.:07:38.

any scheme is as such as authorised by parliament and this wasn't, in

:07:38.:07:42.

their opinion? They wanted more detail in the regulations than we

:07:42.:07:45.

had allowed for. We're going to make sure the regulations are in

:07:45.:07:49.

place to do that. Why didn't you do that? What we need to recognise is

:07:49.:07:55.

that people have different needs about how to get into work. Sorry.

:07:55.:07:59.

This is an important point. course it is, but the real point is

:07:59.:08:03.

how you were so incompetent, why were you so incompetent in doing

:08:03.:08:06.

it? Because what we felt was important was to have the

:08:06.:08:10.

flexibility to design schemes to help people back into work, rather

:08:10.:08:14.

than have the unprescribeed regulation set out in fine detail.

:08:14.:08:17.

We have to respond quickly to what is happening in the labour market

:08:17.:08:20.

and find work. Fine detail is telling parliament what you are

:08:20.:08:25.

going to do and have parliamentary authorisation, such as authorised

:08:25.:08:29.

by parliament, this is not a legal hiccup it is a major blow? It is

:08:29.:08:32.

not a major blow. What is happening as a consequence of the regulations

:08:33.:08:37.

laid to is business as usual. Job centres refer people on to the work

:08:37.:08:41.

programme and on to schemes that help people get the experience that

:08:41.:08:44.

they need to get back into work. The fundamental point at the heart

:08:44.:08:49.

of the debate is was this forced labour, were people being forceded

:08:49.:08:52.

into slavery. That was another issue? This is hardly a vindication

:08:52.:08:55.

of you, to be declared by the Court of Appeal that you operated a

:08:55.:08:58.

scheme in which the regulations were unlawful, is not a

:08:58.:09:01.

vindication? I think it is right for the taxpayer to expect that

:09:01.:09:05.

people are looking for work accept the help we offer them. That is at

:09:05.:09:07.

the heart of it. There is a difference of opinion about how

:09:07.:09:10.

much detail should be in regulation. We have tackled that, and that is

:09:10.:09:13.

why people will be back on the schemes. We do need to give people

:09:13.:09:17.

the help they need to get back into work. This is what we are aiming to

:09:17.:09:20.

do. How much provision have you made in terms of how much public

:09:20.:09:24.

money you are going to have to spend to the 130,000 people that

:09:24.:09:27.

your department says, who have been sanctioned on various schemes,

:09:27.:09:30.

which have now been found to be unlawful? I don't think the tax-

:09:30.:09:33.

payers expect anyone who has broken the rules to get repaid benefits

:09:33.:09:37.

money. You have made no provision? We are very clear that people

:09:37.:09:40.

should be taking part in these schemes F they don't take part in

:09:40.:09:43.

the schemes they have broken their contract with the Government and

:09:43.:09:46.

the tax-payers. It helps them back into work. We do not believe it is

:09:46.:09:52.

appropriate to repay this money. Two people have won their cases of

:09:52.:09:55.

the 129, 998, they could also make claims against you, couldn't they?

:09:55.:09:59.

That is why I think it is clear and it is not in the tax-payers'

:09:59.:10:05.

interest to repay the money. People who are offered help through these

:10:05.:10:09.

schemes should take that. That is their obligation to other tax-

:10:09.:10:12.

payers funding these schemes. you made no provision whatsoever?

:10:12.:10:15.

What we are doing is appealing against the judgment. We don't

:10:15.:10:20.

think it is right. And we're taking this to the Supreme Court. I think

:10:20.:10:23.

it is an important point to resolve. But I think the fundamental point

:10:24.:10:27.

is this, tax-payers expect people who are offered help to take it f

:10:27.:10:30.

they don't take that help to get into work, then they expect those

:10:30.:10:34.

benefit to be removed. That is an important point, I think. Are you

:10:34.:10:39.

saying Cait Reilly and Jamie Wilson were, basically, workshy? I think

:10:39.:10:43.

there are schemes out there to help people back into work. Were they

:10:43.:10:47.

workshy? Are they scroungers? not saying they are scroungers, I'm

:10:47.:10:53.

saying when we offer help we expect people to take it. Miss Reilly said

:10:53.:10:56.

it was a complete waste of time as the experience did not help her get

:10:56.:11:02.

a job. Mr Wilson said he knew it wouldn't help find employment? You

:11:02.:11:06.

want to offer help, but you are offering help they say isn't

:11:06.:11:09.

working for them? That is perfectly reasonable for them to say that?

:11:09.:11:13.

What do people need to get back into work. They say, not what you

:11:13.:11:18.

gave them. I say we need to give people help, that is why we have

:11:18.:11:20.

tailored, personalised support to help people back into work.

:11:20.:11:23.

Sometimes it is a lack of experience on a CV is a barrier to

:11:24.:11:32.

get them into work. So stacking shelves in Poundland and cleaning

:11:32.:11:36.

cars is what graduateed need? Somebody who has demonstrated an

:11:36.:11:40.

ability to turn up on time, knowing what it is like to be employed and

:11:40.:11:45.

part of a team. The work experience we offer helps that. These are

:11:45.:11:47.

effective schemes for getting people back into work. I don't

:11:47.:11:50.

think people should be allowed to turn the schemes down if they are

:11:50.:11:54.

looking for work. Many people will agree but, the courts want you to

:11:54.:11:58.

do it correctly and you accept that point? We will appeal that point.

:11:58.:12:01.

There are doubts over the prove fishcy of some of the private

:12:01.:12:11.
:12:11.:12:12.

agencies, A -- proficient sis, A 4. E, for example, and only 3.5% of

:12:12.:12:16.

those in place stayed long enough to get the payment. You would

:12:16.:12:21.

expect it to be 5%. You are doing something? 200,000 people found

:12:21.:12:25.

work through the work programme in the first few months. 3.5% of the

:12:25.:12:31.

people, not 5%? The people on the work programme have been without

:12:31.:12:36.

work for over a year. There is real barriers to tackle. Through the

:12:36.:12:38.

work programme we have personalised support. I don't think it is right

:12:38.:12:42.

for people to feel free to turn down these schemes to say they

:12:42.:12:47.

don't want to be part of that, and expect the taxpayer to pick up the

:12:47.:12:54.

deal bill, tax-payers expect people to look for work and accept the

:12:54.:12:57.

help we give them. In a moment, what's in the burgers

:12:57.:13:01.

and kebabs you have been eating, now British processors have been

:13:01.:13:11.
:13:11.:13:12.

raided. First, among the many forgotten victims of Muammar

:13:12.:13:18.

Gaddafi's dictatorship in Libya, are those in the embassy shootings

:13:18.:13:22.

in Britain, Yvonne Fletcher was killed. The 11 anti-protestors hit

:13:22.:13:27.

that day have remained silent for fear of reprisals, with Gaddafi

:13:27.:13:31.

gone, they are able to tell the story for the first time. Two have

:13:31.:13:37.

spoken to Newsnight's Glenn Campbell.

:13:37.:13:41.

It is just like it happened yesterday. I feel like the whole

:13:41.:13:47.

thing is a dream. I remember it every day of my life, I was facing

:13:47.:13:57.
:13:57.:13:58.

death here. I could be dead the same day as Yvonne Fletcher died.

:13:58.:14:02.

Peaceful protest is part of every day life in London. And policing

:14:02.:14:07.

demonstrations like this is a matter of routine for the

:14:07.:14:11.

Metropolitan force, but it was at a demonstration of about this size,

:14:11.:14:17.

here in St James's square, that Yvonne Fletcher was killed and 11

:14:17.:14:21.

others wounded. And 30 years on, the case is still open, because no-

:14:21.:14:31.

one has ever been brought to justice. Back in 1984, Colonel

:14:31.:14:36.

Gaddafi was a major exporter of terrorism. He ordered murder of his

:14:36.:14:41.

Libyan opponents throughout the world. It was the Libyan

:14:41.:14:44.

RevolutionyRy Committee's job to hunt down these called stray dogs.

:14:44.:14:48.

By the 17th of April the revolutionaries had taken complete

:14:48.:14:52.

control of the Libyan embassy in London.

:14:52.:14:57.

The night before that fateful day, the British ambassador in Tripoli

:14:57.:15:01.

received a warning. I came back quite late in the evening after

:15:01.:15:04.

dinner to the embassy and found a message saying would I go around

:15:04.:15:07.

immediately to the Foreign Ministry. I went round wondering what the

:15:07.:15:12.

hell was going on. It was midnight. I found one of the senior people in

:15:12.:15:18.

the Foreign Ministry with another man, who I believe was a

:15:18.:15:21.

Revolutionary committee representative, I didn't know him.

:15:21.:15:24.

They told me there was a demonstration outside their office

:15:24.:15:27.

in London the following morning, and I was to get it stopped. And I

:15:27.:15:35.

said, in effect, you must be joking, you have had demonstrations outmy

:15:35.:15:38.

embassy and you protected it and the same thing happens in London.

:15:38.:15:41.

They said this is different and it must be stopped. It must be stopped.

:15:41.:15:47.

And I said there is no way I can stop it. Oliver Miles reported his

:15:47.:15:50.

conversation to London were two Libyan diplomats urged the Foreign

:15:50.:15:54.

Office to stop the demonstration. An arms dealer informed the police

:15:54.:16:01.

of the considerable arsenal inside the Libyan embassy. GCHQ

:16:01.:16:03.

intercepted a telegram from Gaddafi's Government giving orders

:16:03.:16:07.

to use violence, it was not decoded until after the shootings. A worker

:16:07.:16:11.

putting up the barricades was told by another Libyan that they had

:16:11.:16:16.

guns and were intend to go use them. Later, the anti-terrorist squad, C-

:16:16.:16:20.

13, claimed that had they been aware of all this information, they

:16:20.:16:27.

would have cancelled the demo. came here to deliver a very strong

:16:27.:16:32.

message to Gaddafi's regime. The stop the harassment for the

:16:32.:16:39.

political prisoners. Gaddafi kills students! Gaddafi

:16:39.:16:45.

hangs students! The atmosphere was extremely bonderful. We were all

:16:45.:16:52.

heart-to-heart. We were all gathered and with a strong will. We

:16:52.:16:56.

had been calling for this for a long time. We had never bowed down

:16:56.:17:06.

to Gaddafi or his ideas, or his pathetic green book of theories, or

:17:06.:17:13.

the revolution committees. Revolutionary Committee ordered a

:17:13.:17:17.

counter demonstration by Gaddafi supporter, the atmosphere was noisy

:17:17.:17:21.

and tense. Those opposed to the Libyan regime had no idea what was

:17:21.:17:25.

about to happen. I remember Yvonne Fletcher and her great smile. She

:17:25.:17:30.

stood right in front of me. And I stood about, I would say, about

:17:30.:17:34.

here, I was facing the embassy, you know. She stood right in front of

:17:34.:17:38.

me. And she had her hands behind her back like this. I remember her

:17:38.:17:44.

saying good morning, she had a great smile on her face. I remember

:17:44.:17:51.

she was smiling, yeah, she had a smile. And her standing for her

:17:51.:18:01.
:18:01.:18:01.

duty, basically. Then we just started chanting "down, down to

:18:01.:18:06.

Gaddafi", "stop the killing", things like this. A few seconds

:18:06.:18:12.

later the firing started. (gunfire) We thought it would be a major

:18:12.:18:18.

fight happening between us and them. But to be honest I have never

:18:18.:18:22.

expected it could be a serious machine gun out of beautiful

:18:22.:18:31.

Georgian buildings. I saw her fall when the shot happened. And she was

:18:31.:18:34.

squeezing her stomach. It must have been very painful for her. She was

:18:34.:18:39.

going down. I was looking at her. I remember when I got shot I was very

:18:39.:18:43.

hot. All the demonstrators were falling over each other. When the

:18:44.:18:48.

police were shouting at us to move, because people were piling on top

:18:48.:18:51.

of each other, I tried to move but I fell on the ground, that is when

:18:51.:18:54.

I started shouting to the police, that I had been hit, I had been hit.

:18:55.:18:59.

I remember a couple of guys carrying me, as quickly as they can

:18:59.:19:06.

to safety. There was 11 people shot, and obviously Yvonne Fletcher was

:19:06.:19:13.

12. I would say we were quite lucky because nobody else was skilled.

:19:13.:19:19.

The The men were seriously wounded by sub mn gunfire that police

:19:19.:19:24.

believe came from within the building. Because of fear of

:19:24.:19:29.

reprisals by Gaddafi's henchmen, both have kept quiet until now,

:19:29.:19:35.

both men want to know who attacked them. Those murders were committed

:19:35.:19:40.

by individuals who knew the policy was to rub out oppositionists, and

:19:40.:19:46.

didn't need direct orders to do so. In view of what I have told you

:19:46.:19:49.

about the message made through me to the Foreign Ministry in Tripoli,

:19:49.:19:52.

we can rule that out in the case of Yvonne Fletcher. It must have been

:19:52.:19:56.

ordered from Tripoli, I think. Logically, I don't know now that,

:19:56.:20:01.

but that is what I'm assuming, I deduce from the way that things

:20:01.:20:05.

developed. So that now, you might say we are not just looking for the

:20:05.:20:09.

man who fired the gun, we are looking for the man who ordered him

:20:09.:20:13.

to fire the gun, or the men who did that. It may be that whoever pulled

:20:13.:20:18.

the trigger was allowed to walk away. After an 11-day siege, all

:20:18.:20:22.

Libyan diplomats were thrown out of the country. Britain had no

:20:22.:20:26.

diplomatic relations with Libya for the next 15 years. By the time Tony

:20:26.:20:32.

Blair emed Colonel Gaddafi in 2004, lib -- embraced Colonel Gaddafi in

:20:33.:20:35.

2004, Libya had taken responsibility for Yvonne

:20:36.:20:40.

Fletcher's death and paid compensation to her family. Libya's

:20:40.:20:44.

Prime Minister last year paid his respected at the Yvonne Fletcher

:20:44.:20:48.

memorial, last year, and promised the post-revolutionary authorities

:20:48.:20:52.

would help find her killer. The Metropolitan Police have never

:20:52.:20:56.

forgotten their fallen colleague, officers have visited Libya several

:20:56.:21:00.

times, but have not yet made any arrests.

:21:00.:21:03.

I'm, quite frankly, very disappointed and concerned about

:21:03.:21:06.

the lack of progress that has been made on this issue. Libya has now

:21:06.:21:10.

been a free country forecoming up to two years, and it is very

:21:10.:21:15.

important -- for coming up to two years, and it is very important

:21:15.:21:18.

that our own country gets some immediate feedback from the Libyans

:21:19.:21:22.

as to what files will be opened up, and what access will be given to

:21:22.:21:24.

the Metropolitan Police and others who are still officially

:21:24.:21:28.

investigating this matter. You have to remember that in Libyan eyes

:21:28.:21:34.

this is not a big priority. It obviously is a crime, and there

:21:34.:21:39.

they are ashamed of the fact that a British woman was murdered. No

:21:39.:21:44.

doubt they are ashamed of the fact that Libyans were also injured, and

:21:44.:21:48.

some of those Libyans are now very much respected, and in some cases

:21:48.:21:51.

in positions of authority. There is some drive. But compared with the

:21:51.:21:57.

other crimes which took place under the Gaddafi regime, this is small

:21:57.:22:04.

beer. When Gaddafi's Foreign Minister

:22:04.:22:07.

Moussa Koussa defect today London during the revolution, he was

:22:07.:22:10.

questioned about the Lockerbie bombing, some victims of the

:22:10.:22:13.

embassy shootings believe he can help solve their case too.

:22:13.:22:20.

police don't have to go far, go to Qatar and Jordan to Moussa Koussa,

:22:20.:22:24.

he is the man and knows about this more than anybody else. The one man

:22:24.:22:31.

who may hold the key to who opened fire on the protest outside the

:22:31.:22:36.

embassy is Colonel Gaddafi's former intelligence chief. He's described

:22:36.:22:40.

as the black box of the Gaddafi regime and the crimes it committed.

:22:40.:22:44.

He was extradited from Moritania to Libya, where he's currently

:22:44.:22:49.

languishing in prison. But so far the Metropolitan Police have not

:22:49.:22:57.

been to interview him. The Libyans have one of the best witness, which

:22:57.:23:01.

is Mr Abdullah. We need to find out if he has spoken about this. We

:23:01.:23:08.

need to find out from the Libyan regime if there are steps being

:23:08.:23:13.

taken right now to find out who did it. I think he will be critical. He

:23:13.:23:17.

has spent three decades being the most senior security intelligence

:23:17.:23:22.

chief for Gaddafi. If anybody knows who was behind this, it will be him,

:23:22.:23:27.

it will be him. It is extremely important that the Metropolitan

:23:27.:23:32.

Police are given access to him in prison. The man who is usually

:23:32.:23:36.

regarded as the evil genius of Gaddafi, and who was thought to be

:23:36.:23:41.

responsible for all his crimes, Abdullah Sanusi, if he was

:23:41.:23:46.

responsible for this, they will want to pin the crime on him. But

:23:46.:23:51.

not before they have dealt with the prison massacre in by 1200 Libyans

:23:51.:23:53.

were killed. There were many victims of the Gaddafi regime. But

:23:54.:24:00.

those shot and wounded on a sunny day in St James's square, are tired

:24:00.:24:06.

of -- St James's Square are tired of waiting for justice for

:24:06.:24:09.

themselves and Yvonne Fletcher. angry that nobody has been brought

:24:09.:24:14.

to justice. It has been 28 years, we need it find out who did it.

:24:14.:24:19.

like justice to be implemented. This is a matter of life and death.

:24:19.:24:24.

As a result of that an innocent young woman, doing her duty, got

:24:24.:24:31.

killed for that. I think it has to be justice done.

:24:31.:24:36.

We have further developments, what has been going on? It has emerged

:24:36.:24:38.

that police investigating the embassy shootings have made a

:24:38.:24:42.

fourth visit to Libya, since the revolution. The Metropolitan Police

:24:43.:24:47.

has confirmed that detectives flew to Tripoli on Sunday, and were

:24:47.:24:52.

returning to the UK today, having met with Libyan officials to

:24:52.:24:55.

discuss how a joint investigation into Yvonne Fletcher's murder and

:24:55.:25:00.

the other shootings can be taken forward. Now this follows David

:25:00.:25:05.

Cameron's recent visit to Libya, where he announced new co-operation

:25:05.:25:09.

with the Lockerbie bombing investigation, Downing Street

:25:09.:25:13.

confirming today that he also raised the Fletcher case with his

:25:13.:25:16.

Libyan counterpart. They say they have been getting good co-operation

:25:16.:25:20.

from the new Government in Libya. So whilst there has been many false

:25:20.:25:23.

dawns in this case. I think the Fletcher family, the others who

:25:23.:25:29.

were shot and wounded that day, as the 29th anniversary of the

:25:29.:25:33.

shootings draws nearer, I think they will feel that justice is

:25:33.:25:40.

perhaps more within grasp now than ever before. One of the few

:25:40.:25:44.

consolations about the horse meat scandal has been that British

:25:44.:25:47.

slaughterhouses and meat processing plants were believed not to be

:25:47.:25:51.

involved. In fact, yesterday the National Beef Association suggested

:25:51.:25:57.

stamping the words "United Kingdom origin" on packaging so we could

:25:57.:26:01.

trust what we are eating. Tonight things look a bit different, police

:26:01.:26:05.

and Food Standards Agency officials raided the Peter Boddy Licensed

:26:05.:26:09.

Slaughterhouse in Yorkshire, and Farmbox Meats in west Wales, and

:26:09.:26:15.

the FSA has said horse meat has ended up in burgers and kebabs. The

:26:15.:26:19.

minister, Owen Paterson, was outraged. It is outrageous that we

:26:19.:26:27.

found the meat here. We will be following it up with the full

:26:28.:26:32.

rigour of the powers invested in the Food Standards Agency. If there

:26:33.:26:36.

is criminal activity I expect the police to bring in the full force

:26:36.:26:40.

of the criminal law. We have the details. What actually happened in

:26:40.:26:47.

these raids? Of course, this is an on going investigation, these are

:26:47.:26:52.

allegations not yet proven. Having said that the FSA did confirm to us

:26:53.:26:56.

tonight that they have definitely found horse meat purporting to be

:26:56.:27:00.

beef. They said the agency and the police are looking into the

:27:00.:27:04.

circumstances through which meat products, purporting to be meat for

:27:04.:27:08.

kebabs and burgers were sold when they were horse. They said they

:27:08.:27:12.

raided these two premises, the Peter Boddy Licensed Slaughterhouse

:27:12.:27:17.

in West Yorkshire, Farmbox Meats in Aberystwyth, they have kept all the

:27:17.:27:22.

meat and stopped production at both place, they have seized paperwork

:27:22.:27:25.

including customer lists. They couldn't tell me tonight who is on

:27:25.:27:32.

the customer lists. BBC Wales managed to speak to the owner of

:27:32.:27:35.

Farmbox Meats in Aberystwyth this evening. He says he has been

:27:35.:27:39.

cutting horse meat on the site for about three weeks. And that it

:27:39.:27:43.

comes from a source in Ireland. Now he said the business is perfectly

:27:43.:27:46.

legitimate and above board. The meat goes to a place that is

:27:46.:27:51.

licensed. Though he didn't say where the meat goes. He said he

:27:51.:27:55.

knew nothing about the second plant in Yorkshire, he's now taking legal

:27:55.:27:59.

advice. We tried to contact the plant in West Yorkshire, we

:27:59.:28:05.

couldn't reach anyone for a comment. Now, all of this is going to make

:28:05.:28:08.

things pretty uncomfortable, I think, for Owen Paterson, when he

:28:08.:28:12.

heads to Brussels for a big European meeting on this. They will

:28:12.:28:18.

look at the network of suppliers and agents behind the processed

:28:18.:28:22.

meat supply chain. Spreading across a number of European countries, we

:28:22.:28:27.

now know, this all started, remember, in Ireland, it has spread

:28:27.:28:32.

to include France, the netherlands and Romania, which, until now, had

:28:32.:28:36.

been under the spotlight. So what else have we been learning today?

:28:36.:28:41.

Interestingly today there has been a suggestion from a former head of

:28:41.:28:45.

food authenticity at the FSA, he now works as a food consultant,

:28:45.:28:51.

this is a Dr Mark Wolf, he believes a decision to reclassify a type of

:28:51.:28:56.

minced meat could have played a part in it. It is meat called

:28:56.:29:01.

desinewed meat, which was used widely in the UK supply and value

:29:01.:29:08.

processed meals, the cheaper meals. Last year European rules said this

:29:08.:29:12.

desinewed meat could not any longer be classified as meat content. He

:29:12.:29:17.

says this forced suppliers to look for cheaper sources outside, the

:29:17.:29:21.

FSA says this change is not to blame. The shadow Environment

:29:21.:29:24.

Minister, Mary Creagh, is with me now. This is pretty shocking, isn't

:29:25.:29:30.

it? It is a very dramatic turn of events, until now we thought it

:29:30.:29:34.

could have been a rogue batch in the Irish plant. Then we had the

:29:35.:29:38.

news from Findus that shows it was more widespread across Europe. The

:29:38.:29:43.

news tonight that horse is being passed off as beef in the UK is a

:29:43.:29:49.

very worrying new development. are here as a spokesperson for your

:29:49.:29:54.

father, as a consumer or mother, would you feed mince, burgers or

:29:54.:29:59.

kebabs to your children now? I look for the red tractor mark, that

:29:59.:30:04.

means it is made, slaught, grown in the UK. I have confidence that the

:30:04.:30:07.

audits that are carried out are proper in the red tractor mark.

:30:08.:30:13.

What is not clear, though, is any food system can withstand systemic

:30:14.:30:18.

cim nat adultation. Once might be an accident, twice might be a

:30:18.:30:23.

coincidence, three is starting to look like a pattern. You look for

:30:23.:30:27.

the red tractor mark, if you are buying a burger or something at a

:30:27.:30:30.

store you haven't a clue? If you are a child at school or patient in

:30:30.:30:34.

a hospital or prisoner in a prison, you don't have those choices either.

:30:34.:30:37.

I have been keen to get advice from the minister about what public

:30:37.:30:41.

sector caters should do. That advice came out very late on Sunday

:30:41.:30:45.

night from the FSA, and basically said to schools and hospitals that

:30:45.:30:48.

you have to check with your suppliers. If we don't know if

:30:48.:30:51.

these companies are dodgy, how do we know where to look and take

:30:51.:30:55.

action. I suppose it all comes down to a question of trust. If you go

:30:55.:30:59.

to any of the big supermarket chains, most of us, most of the

:30:59.:31:03.

time trust what they are selling us. Don't they have a responsibility to

:31:04.:31:06.

look at their suppliers, it is not just the Government or the FSA.

:31:06.:31:09.

Surely they have to find out what is in our meat? They do, and they

:31:09.:31:13.

have reassured me, they have told me about the spot checks that they.

:31:13.:31:16.

Do but clearly, the system has broken down, and broken down in a

:31:16.:31:21.

shre big way. Not just the -- very big way. Not just the supermarket

:31:21.:31:26.

system, after this we will have to see random DNA testing in all

:31:26.:31:29.

supermarket lines. That was mentioned in the debate we had in

:31:29.:31:32.

the House of Commons today. Again, if you are going out and having to

:31:32.:31:35.

get a sandwich or something from anywhere, that you can't actually

:31:35.:31:39.

source the meat yourself, what do you trust, do you trust the stuff

:31:39.:31:43.

you are eating? People have to know where they are buying from, and

:31:43.:31:47.

they have to be not afraid to ask questions. We have seen with a

:31:47.:31:51.

spike in local butcher shops over the weekend reporting a big incos

:31:51.:31:56.

in sales as people go back to local butchers who they know and trust

:31:56.:31:59.

That is also a question of money, everybody now is looking for

:31:59.:32:02.

cheaper stuff, because everybody is suffering one way or another,

:32:02.:32:05.

because of hard times. Therefore, you will get more demand for the

:32:05.:32:15.

stuff you can't trace? I think it is a real gross injustice that this

:32:15.:32:19.

systematic adulteration seems to have been perpetuated. People on

:32:19.:32:23.

lowest incomes, pensioners on ready meals, and students with kebabs,

:32:23.:32:27.

people who don't have much money to spend. Some of those families

:32:27.:32:29.

already tipping over into food poverty, they are finding life very

:32:29.:32:32.

difficult. They trust these products and we have to make sure

:32:32.:32:35.

that the system is fit for purpose and can reassure them about what is

:32:35.:32:41.

safe to eat. In a few hours time Barack Obama

:32:41.:32:45.

will do what US Presidents have done for decades, deliver a State

:32:45.:32:48.

of the Union speech, telling Americans their union is strong.

:32:48.:32:53.

There may be some last-minute revisions. North Korea, which has

:32:53.:32:56.

missiles apparent low capable of reaching the continetal United

:32:56.:33:00.

States, has just staged its third nuclear test. President Obama

:33:00.:33:05.

called it provocative and threatening, his outgoing secretary

:33:05.:33:09.

said North Korea was a serious threat to the United States. Is the

:33:09.:33:14.

simple truth we will have to get used to the fact that one of the

:33:14.:33:19.

world's most bizarre regimes has nuclear bombs and capacity to use

:33:19.:33:25.

them, and that East Asia is a dangerous flash point.

:33:26.:33:30.

The Mercury is rising in north Asia, with a combination of nationalist

:33:30.:33:34.

rivalry, high spending on defence, and war-like rhetoric. Now with the

:33:34.:33:38.

situation already tense, North Korea has chosen to flout UN

:33:38.:33:43.

resolutions and mount a nuclear test. There is a recognition that

:33:43.:33:47.

North Korea is getting better at this. This is becoming less of a

:33:47.:33:50.

theoretical threat down the line, and it is something we are going to

:33:50.:33:55.

have to deal with in the near term that we would really not deal with.

:33:55.:33:59.

So, it is real watershed in terms of North Korea technological

:33:59.:34:06.

development, coming after the missile test in December.

:34:06.:34:11.

North Korea announced a successful test of a device smaller and more

:34:11.:34:14.

powerful than those previously tried, and warned the US in advance

:34:14.:34:19.

they were about to do it. That left the international community,

:34:19.:34:25.

notably the UN Security Council, with little choice but swift

:34:25.:34:29.

condemnation. I strongly condemn Pyongyang's reckless act, which

:34:29.:34:36.

shows outright disregard for the repeated call of the international

:34:36.:34:41.

community to refrain from further provocative measures. The test is a

:34:41.:34:44.

clear and grave violation of the relevant resolutions of the

:34:44.:34:50.

Security Council. And the Americans promised more of the punishment

:34:50.:34:55.

that has so far failed to bring North Korea into compliance.

:34:56.:35:00.

address the persistent danger posed by North Korea's threatening

:35:00.:35:07.

activities, the UN Security Council must and will deliver a swift,

:35:07.:35:12.

credible and strong response, by way of a Security Council

:35:12.:35:17.

resolution, that further comes against the ballistic weapons

:35:17.:35:26.

programmes, and its ability to engage in proliferation activities.

:35:26.:35:30.

The underground test has produced regional shockwaves. Neighbouring

:35:30.:35:33.

China condemned it, but retains an interest in the survival of the

:35:33.:35:38.

north Korean regime. There is another problem, chino Japanese

:35:38.:35:41.

tensions over disputed islands are running high. With the United

:35:42.:35:47.

States bound to both South Korea and Japan by defence agreements,

:35:47.:35:51.

that could produce an international crisis. The Washington position,

:35:51.:35:55.

the position of the Obama add mints traigs, has to take into --

:35:55.:36:00.

administration, has to take into account that China is in some way a

:36:00.:36:03.

competitor, but also a potential partner, not only in addressing the

:36:03.:36:08.

problem of North Korea, but other global problems. It can't be seen

:36:08.:36:16.

to be locked into defensiveness against North Korea. But there is a

:36:16.:36:20.

limit to their power and control the domestic agenda in both Japan.

:36:20.:36:24.

Certainly in China and to a degree in South Korea. Therefore, the

:36:24.:36:29.

United States is confronting the limitations of what is often

:36:29.:36:33.

described as its "soft power", its ability to win friends and

:36:33.:36:37.

influence people. Japan's new Prime Minister has raised the stakes in

:36:37.:36:41.

his country's maritime dispute with China over the islands. The scope

:36:41.:36:46.

for miscalculation is all the greater, because of new leaderships

:36:46.:36:51.

in China, Japan, north and South Korea. With Korean or Chinese

:36:51.:36:56.

feelings about Japan still heightened by memories of war time

:36:56.:37:00.

brutality, a region of the world long frozen in Cold War certainties

:37:00.:37:07.

now seems to be entering a period of instability. The situation is so

:37:07.:37:11.

tense now that some have compared it to Europe on the eve of World

:37:11.:37:16.

War I. The risk being, that countries with a history of using

:37:16.:37:20.

provocations to dramatise their concerns, might get it wrong,

:37:20.:37:25.

miscalculate, and spark a conflict drawing in the US and China. The

:37:25.:37:29.

only positive aspect to today's news, is that at least those two

:37:29.:37:34.

great Security Council powers can agree, that North Korea's act is

:37:34.:37:39.

provocative and dangerous. If anything it could be a

:37:39.:37:42.

galvanising opportunity for the region. Because it brings South

:37:42.:37:49.

Korea a little closer with Japan. They want to co-operate more, visa

:37:49.:37:57.

advise North Korea. For China it is in, vis a vis, North Korea. And we

:37:57.:38:01.

are going to take stronger defensive actions against North

:38:01.:38:09.

Korea. For each of China and Japanese, maintaining a balancing

:38:09.:38:15.

act will be tough, as increasingly assertive allies throw down

:38:15.:38:18.

challenges. North Korea's test is the latest, but it certainly won't

:38:18.:38:21.

be the last. Before the end of the programme we will have the front

:38:21.:38:24.

pages. First, at a time when Britain is deliberating whether to

:38:24.:38:27.

leave the European Union, there is one country which has been knocking

:38:27.:38:33.

on the EU's doors for years, without success, Turkey. The

:38:33.:38:37.

British Government has been a big supporter of Turkey joining the EU,

:38:37.:38:41.

and the Turkish minister responsible for negotiations is in

:38:41.:38:45.

London tonight to lobby ministers and MPs. We will hear from him in a

:38:45.:38:50.

moment about why Turkey wants to join a club that has gone through

:38:50.:39:00.
:39:00.:39:00.

an unhappy few years. Over the past six decades the EU has expanded

:39:00.:39:04.

from a handful of states to current membership of 27. It has evolved

:39:04.:39:09.

into the world's biggest trading block and transformed the

:39:09.:39:12.

continent's map. Turkey is one of eight countries hoping to join. It

:39:12.:39:18.

has been a long journey, an associate member since 1963. Turkey

:39:18.:39:26.

applied for full membership in 1987 and has been negotiating terms ever

:39:26.:39:31.

since. Under law countries have to comply with tests to show they are

:39:31.:39:38.

politically, financially and psychologically ready to join. The

:39:38.:39:47.

head of turkey has set a deadline of 2023 to invite them to join the

:39:47.:39:51.

party. Fears over Turkish migration to person Europe remain obstacle.

:39:51.:39:55.

Earlier today I caught up with Turkey's minister responsible for

:39:56.:40:01.

negotiations to join me. Minister, after some 25 years of trying to be

:40:01.:40:07.

a full member of the EU? What 25, 54 years. From the very start. In

:40:07.:40:12.

terms it of the formalities of it, since the 1980s, why are you still

:40:12.:40:18.

trying to become full members of the EU? Because we believe the EU

:40:18.:40:22.

is the grandest peace project of the history of mankind. If it has

:40:22.:40:26.

helped you guys live with the French, despite Waterloo, it shows

:40:26.:40:31.

that it is a very important peace project. But this peace project is

:40:31.:40:36.

still a continental one, but when Turkey joins the EU, we can help

:40:36.:40:42.

transform it to become a global one. But do you think the EU is actually

:40:42.:40:48.

negotiating with you in good faith. Because I've talk today quite a lot

:40:48.:40:51.

of Turkish people who think you have been strung along for years.

:40:51.:40:56.

There are more people in the EU, there are more countries in the EU

:40:56.:41:06.
:41:06.:41:06.

who are since seerl in -- sincerely in favour of Turkey's accession, in

:41:06.:41:13.

contrast to others who have other ideas in the back of their mindss.

:41:13.:41:18.

I think in the long -- minds. I think in the long run, this great

:41:18.:41:23.

rent day have you, Turkey and Europe joining together, -- rend

:41:23.:41:28.

day have you, Turkey and Europe joining together, will be based on

:41:28.:41:36.

concrete needs. This is a very important project. It is based on a

:41:36.:41:41.

win-win. If you look at the EU your growth over the last five years has

:41:41.:41:45.

been higher than the EU average. Britain may be getting out of the

:41:45.:41:48.

EU at precisely the point you are joining. How does that, and given

:41:48.:41:52.

that Britain is one of your big supporter, how does that affect the

:41:52.:41:58.

way you look on the EU, a club that some people may actually want to

:41:58.:42:04.

leave? Prime Minister Cameron's messages are very clear. I think

:42:04.:42:14.

these messages will help Europe put itself in order. Put its houz --

:42:14.:42:18.

house in order and shape. I think we can all work together towards

:42:18.:42:22.

creating a brighter future for all of us. Do you also see the big

:42:22.:42:27.

worry in Britain, and elsewhere, about immigration. There is worries

:42:27.:42:30.

now that many Bulgarians and Romanians when free to travel will

:42:30.:42:34.

come to this country and there won't be jobs for them and it will

:42:34.:42:38.

be a drain .5 million Turkish people? I don't think as concern.

:42:38.:42:43.

We were discussing the Polish plumber concept for years. I

:42:43.:42:48.

haven't seen many Polish plumbers in the UK or France. A lot of

:42:48.:42:52.

people in the UK have seen a lot of Polish plumbers? It is a huge fear

:42:52.:42:56.

that if there was freedom of travel for Turk, many Turk would travel to

:42:56.:43:03.

Europe. About according to German Government -- but according to

:43:03.:43:08.

Germany Government statistic, more Germans are migrate to go Turkey

:43:08.:43:12.

than the other way around. In the aftermath of the economic crisis,

:43:12.:43:16.

prospects of living in Romania, Bulgaria and eventually Turkey,

:43:16.:43:20.

might be better compared to some of the countries who are concerned.

:43:20.:43:24.

will look to see the British immigration to Turkey in the

:43:24.:43:33.

future? Well, there is huge in throw of real estate purchasing by

:43:33.:43:40.

British citizens in Turkey, and the more the merrier. We have bright

:43:40.:43:44.

Mediterranean sun 300 days of the year. And with the British pension

:43:44.:43:49.

salary, they can enjoy a much greater life with higher standard

:43:49.:43:53.

in Turkey compared to what they can hardly afford here in the UK. So

:43:53.:43:57.

they are more than welcome to come. Just a final thought, which is

:43:57.:44:02.

about Turkey's role. You are playing a big role in Syria, and a

:44:02.:44:06.

big role in the Middle East, do you regret the fact that the Americans

:44:06.:44:10.

are not doing more. Perhaps the Europeans haven't woken up to the

:44:10.:44:13.

fact that it is their problem too, and they will have to do more n

:44:13.:44:20.

Syria and the wider Middle East? Syria, on average, 100 people are

:44:20.:44:23.

being killed by their own Government every single day. I I

:44:24.:44:28.

don't think -- I don't think anyone has the right to look the other way.

:44:28.:44:33.

I believe in the fact that nobody is safe until everybody is safe. If

:44:33.:44:38.

we let the current bloodshed continue, it's going to hurt all of

:44:38.:44:45.

us. Therefore, we have to commence our friend in Russia, China, a --

:44:45.:44:50.

convince our commends in Russia and China to put the necessary leverage

:44:50.:44:58.

on this Assad dictator in Syria, to leave and let Syrian people choose

:44:58.:45:04.

their new democratic Government. Thank you very much. Quick look at

:45:04.:45:14.
:45:14.:45:14.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 63 seconds

:45:14.:46:17.

That's it from us tonight. Before we go an item of interest to

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Beyonce and others, when the Bakersfield Conned dors played ice

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cocky, it was thought a real life Condor would attend the singing of

:46:31.:46:41.
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the National Anthem. The condor of # The land of the free

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Hello there, a change in our weather through the course of

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tomorrow, as we start to see more significant snowfall returning,

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particularly across the higher route of Scotland and northern

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Englandment even some at lower level for a time, acompany by

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strong to gale-force gusts of wind. That will cause some problems on

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the higher routes if you are travelling by car through the

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afternoon. Across East Anglia and the south-east corner, it is a grey

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and cold day, dry during daylight showers. Temperatures around 6-8

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degrees, rain rather than snow. A period of time of snow, turning

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back to rain, to finish the day out. For Northern Ireland the rain clors

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away. A quieter end to the afternoon. -- clears a quieter

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afternoon. By the middle of the afternoon the significant threat of

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snow will start to ease away from Scotland. We could see as much as

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10-15cms to higher ground before clearing through. There will be a

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spell of snow turning to rain, a milder feel behind double figures

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during Wednesday afternoon. For England and Wales, again, some snow

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into the Midland, elsewhere it will be rain, a milder feel from

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In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Gavin Esler, including benefits claimants working in Poundland. Who killed PC Yvonne Fletcher? Horsemeat in Welsh burgers, North Korean nuclear testing and Turkey and the EU.


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