Browse content similar to 13/02/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Tonight, getting a grip on the horse meat scandal, a crisis | :00:12. | :00:16. | |
meeting in Brussels, with countries from Ireland, to Romania now | :00:16. | :00:19. | |
implicated. It seems like every day we are learning something new about | :00:19. | :00:23. | |
what we are eating. So how do we best make sure we know what's in | :00:23. | :00:28. | |
our food, and where it comes from. We will hear from the Prime | :00:28. | :00:33. | |
Minister of Romania. Also the blank page where Labour's policy should | :00:33. | :00:37. | |
be. We hear from the man in charge of the party's policy review, on | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
what Ed Miliband's Labour is for, what it should do. | :00:40. | :00:47. | |
And, he came close to becoming the European Union's first Marxist | :00:47. | :00:52. | |
Prime Minister, Alexis Tsipras tells Newsnight why he thinks | :00:52. | :01:01. | |
Greece's democracy itself could be in danger. | :01:01. | :01:04. | |
Good evening a crisis meeting in Brussels, the British Prime | :01:04. | :01:08. | |
Minister promising the full force of the law. The Romanian Prime | :01:08. | :01:12. | |
Minister denying to Newsnight his country is responsible for the | :01:12. | :01:16. | |
dodgy supposed beef which is actually mothers. From Dublin to -- | :01:16. | :01:22. | |
horse, from Dublin to Westminster, to Bucharest, agriculture minister, | :01:22. | :01:25. | |
scientists and consumers are trying to make sense of a complicated | :01:26. | :01:33. | |
relationship between meat packers and sources. Passing off cheap meat | :01:33. | :01:38. | |
as expensive. We will hear from a far from happy Romanian Prime | :01:38. | :01:40. | |
Minister tonight, but we have this coverage tonight. | :01:40. | :01:44. | |
Within all the confusion of the horsemeat scandal, it is easy to | :01:44. | :01:48. | |
forget it is actually about something quite simple. How much do | :01:48. | :01:57. | |
we know about the journey farm animals make from here to our plate. | :01:57. | :02:02. | |
Jody Scheckter is a former Formula One world champion, who now runs an | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
organic meat from in Hampshire. can see in a computer in the office | :02:06. | :02:12. | |
where every piece of meat is in this abattoir. It comes from France | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
and into the abattoir, in the abattoir we have three people from | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
the Government, you can't bring any other animal in that looks like | :02:19. | :02:22. | |
something else. We track the meat right through until it gets to the | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
plate, and to the outlet where we sell it. This is a pretty highend | :02:27. | :02:31. | |
operation, not only do they farm sheep and cattle, but buffalo too. | :02:31. | :02:38. | |
And it's unusual in having so many parts of the chain here on the one | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
site. From farm to abattoir to customer. When the imperative is | :02:41. | :02:46. | |
food that everyone can afford, is it possible to have this degree of | :02:46. | :02:52. | |
safeguard all along the chain. Horses are supposed to be | :02:52. | :02:55. | |
identifiable through passport and microchip, beef cattle also have a | :02:55. | :03:02. | |
passport and ear tag. But after slaughter, tracability gets harder. | :03:03. | :03:07. | |
The problem becomes when it becomes processed, such as mince or other | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
more complex products. Here we have to remember that the microchip, or | :03:11. | :03:16. | |
the ear tag, doesn't accompany that box of processed meat. It is a | :03:16. | :03:21. | |
paper-based system, which works on trust, and that, combined with a | :03:21. | :03:23. | |
complex food chain across the European Union, we have the single | :03:23. | :03:28. | |
market for this, makes tracability complex, difficult and, as we are | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
finding, open to misuse.The Structure of the meat supply chain | :03:32. | :03:38. | |
can be a long one, and the paper trail complex. From farm to | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
slaughterhouse, which may or may not include a cutting plant for | :03:41. | :03:47. | |
boning and packing, and from here, the meat is either sent on to a | :03:47. | :03:51. | |
food processor, wholesaler or directly to the consumer. But in | :03:51. | :03:56. | |
most cases to a retailer or food outlet. This whole chain is under | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
scrutiny now across Europe, as officials try to work out what | :04:00. | :04:04. | |
happened where. Drawing in first Ireland, then France, Netherlands, | :04:04. | :04:09. | |
Luxembourg, Romania, and as we found out yesterday, the UK. | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
some cases it is possible to determine not just the species and | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
country of origin, but the breed, the farm, and in fact, the field | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
that they are grazing in. But at the value end you pay less money | :04:22. | :04:25. | |
because you are not having that levels of tracability. It is | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
passing through many hands, and so, yes, almost inevitably this is | :04:29. | :04:35. | |
going to be only at the value end that the tracability is eradicated. | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
So if we can't place too much trust in paper audit, the other way to | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
check what is in the supply chain is to test. Scientists who carry | :04:42. | :04:49. | |
out this DNA testing say retailers and the Food Standards Agency needs | :04:49. | :04:51. | |
to shift the balance towards more testing. They only test the things | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
they expect to be there. What has happened in this situation is that | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
nobody, very few people were looking for horseMay meat in final | :05:00. | :05:04. | |
products. Certainly the FSA in this country, and most of the retail as | :05:04. | :05:09. | |
far as I can tell weren't either. So you can only test for what you | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
expect to be there. I think because the FSA are not doing so much | :05:13. | :05:18. | |
surveillance work in this area any more, these things, I think, are | :05:18. | :05:25. | |
being missed. It'ss good. For Jody Scheckter, the | :05:25. | :05:29. | |
last thing he thinks is needed is mormon torg of the meat supply | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
chain. There is always a way of cheat ago system, but there is | :05:33. | :05:37. | |
always bad people in every type of industry that is going to try to | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
sneak something in a little bit cheaper. -- cheating the system, | :05:40. | :05:45. | |
but there is always bad people of every type of industry trying to | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
sneak something in. But monitoring will make it more expensive and | :05:48. | :05:53. | |
make it that they want cheap foods, because they so regulate it, it | :05:53. | :05:57. | |
makes it so expensive. There is either way to look at it. Today the | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
BBC spoke to the Welsh owner of one of two companies which the Food | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
Standards Agency yesterday alleged had been passing off horse as beef, | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
destined for kebabs and burgers. His lawyer said the agency's | :06:10. | :06:13. | |
allegations are misleading. I get paid for doing the cutting up. | :06:13. | :06:19. | |
There is no further processing, I don't do keb bags, I don't -- | :06:19. | :06:24. | |
kebabs, I don't do mincemeat or beef burgers this is not a | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
processing plant. This is purely production, meat cutting. | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
Brussels tonight there was agreement that the way ahead to win | :06:30. | :06:36. | |
back consumer confidence is more DNA testing across the EU. To check | :06:36. | :06:41. | |
for horsemeat, and a focus on testing for the veterinary medicine | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
bute, used on horses, but should not be in the human food chain. | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
consumer needs to see a co- ordinated and determined effort, | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
right across Europe, to get to the bottom of this problem. It is | :06:52. | :06:57. | |
completely wrong that consumers are being presented with a product | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
marked "beef", and finding it contains horse. I'm delighted we | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
got this meetinging pulled together at short notice today. And I'm | :07:04. | :07:06. | |
pleased that the commissioner has come forward with proposelia that | :07:06. | :07:11. | |
is we wanted. It is clear we do want DNA testing of processed beef | :07:11. | :07:15. | |
products, that will help reassure the consumer. | :07:15. | :07:19. | |
The soul searching continues about the way we farm our meat, process | :07:19. | :07:24. | |
our food and keep consumers informed about what we are all | :07:24. | :07:29. | |
eating. Earlier today I talked with the Prime Minister of Romania about | :07:29. | :07:34. | |
the finger pointing which suggests Romania is to blame for some of the | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
adulterated meat products. He insists it a European, not just | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
Romanian problem, and has confidence about how horsemeat is | :07:41. | :07:47. | |
produced in his country. Up to now according to all the checks that | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
the Romanian and European authorities, and you the media have | :07:50. | :07:55. | |
conducted here in Romania, it is very clear that there are plans | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
plants and companies in are you main -- plants, and companies in | :07:59. | :08:06. | |
Romania exporting horsemeat, but everything was according to the | :08:06. | :08:11. | |
standards. The kind of meat was clearly put as being horsemeat, | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
somewhere on the network to the UK and other countries, it seems that | :08:15. | :08:20. | |
something I will local happened, and we will fully co-operate to | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
punish, if there is a Romanian company, up to now it hasn't been | :08:24. | :08:28. | |
like this, but to punish the companies involved, and to rebuild | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
the trust of the European consumers. Do you accept that if this is, as | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
you say, a European problem, then the European system clearly isn't | :08:37. | :08:42. | |
working? I can tell you, because I'm not a specialist in this matter, | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
but I can tell you that at least in Romania, up to now, according to | :08:46. | :08:53. | |
all the checks, the European standards has been respected and | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
that means that the European procedures have worked. It is a | :08:56. | :09:03. | |
clear case of fraud, and I know that there are frauds in many other | :09:03. | :09:09. | |
issues, not only in in this field. I think that using this crisis, we | :09:09. | :09:14. | |
should work together on the European side to threaten the | :09:14. | :09:19. | |
checks, the rules and to make the procedures even better than up to | :09:19. | :09:22. | |
now. What do you mean by that, sorry to interrupt, what you do | :09:22. | :09:26. | |
mean by making it even better. People in this country are amazed | :09:26. | :09:34. | |
that we are importing meat from Romania, through Dutch, French and | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
Spanish intermediaries, which some how turns up in our food and not | :09:39. | :09:41. | |
tabled correctly. What has to work better? Actually if we are | :09:41. | :09:47. | |
referring to this case, there was no import from Romania to the UK. | :09:47. | :09:52. | |
Romanians produced and have exported to France, to Luxembourg, | :09:52. | :09:58. | |
to Cyprus, to some other European countries. So the idea is, and this | :09:58. | :10:05. | |
is, I think, the concern of the European authorities, but each | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
member-state and the authorities is to find out exactly where the fraud | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
has been committed. To take very harsh measures against the kpts, | :10:13. | :10:18. | |
and to put in place rules -- companies, and to put in place | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
rules for the future to avoid these kinds of frauds. Do you think this | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
is damaging to Romania, because we are having a campaign now to buy | :10:26. | :10:30. | |
local, buy British and don't buy stuff from abroad, that will hurt | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
your industry? The main concern should not be the concern interests | :10:34. | :10:41. | |
of one company, from Romania or the UK. The main interest and the main | :10:41. | :10:46. | |
responsibility we have is towards the consumers. British consumers, | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
like any other European consumers, like the Romanian consumers, they | :10:50. | :10:55. | |
have the right to know the truth about the food. We should, first of | :10:55. | :11:03. | |
all, treat these scandals, taking into consideration the legitimate | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
right of the consumers to be rightly informed and to know the | :11:07. | :11:14. | |
truth. Secondly, off course this scandal is going to affect some | :11:14. | :11:17. | |
companies. If we are talking about guilty companies, this is very good, | :11:17. | :11:24. | |
and they should be very harshly punished. If it is the owners, then | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
the fair companies, it is in the interests of all the Governments to | :11:28. | :11:32. | |
protect the honest companies and punish the dishonest ones. | :11:33. | :11:36. | |
don't think Romania is being made the fall guy and scapegoat for | :11:37. | :11:42. | |
this? It could have been. If we had not reacted very fast, and very | :11:42. | :11:47. | |
clearly. That's why I'm rather satisfied that the Romanian | :11:47. | :11:51. | |
authorities took this issue very, very seriously, and for the time | :11:51. | :11:57. | |
being, for the time being, I'm satisfied with the way that we | :11:57. | :12:02. | |
reacted, but we are going to, once again, I don't consider the job of | :12:02. | :12:08. | |
the Romanian authorities fulfilled, because nothing happens in are you | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
mainia. I think that we should double check, triple check this, to | :12:12. | :12:19. | |
help all the member states and the European authorities, as I told you, | :12:19. | :12:24. | |
to punish the responsible companies, and secondly, to make better rules | :12:24. | :12:30. | |
and better standards for the future. What all this has uncovered, of | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
course, is how little we actually know about what goes into processed | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
food, and also whether the pressure to buy cheap food might be damaging | :12:37. | :12:43. | |
in the long run. To discuss this, Tim Lang, Professor of food policy | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
at City University, the MP, Sandys, campaigning on food pricing, and we | :12:47. | :12:52. | |
are joined by the NFU President, Peter Kendall from Brussels. | :12:52. | :12:57. | |
Do you have a sense whereof the blame lies in this, has there -- | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
where the blame lies in this, has there been a structural breakdown? | :13:01. | :13:06. | |
I thought the interview with the Romanian premier was spot on. What | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
it was exposing is initial reflexes of the British Government was to | :13:09. | :13:15. | |
blame the Romanians. It was a convenient, far away, easy to do, | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
but that was a very robust defence, and the Romanians, if you notice, | :13:18. | :13:24. | |
all along have said, hold on. The other theory, if that's the bad | :13:24. | :13:26. | |
company apple theory, the other they arey, which is actually what | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
most people think, is -- theory, which is actually what most people | :13:30. | :13:37. | |
think, is this is a systemic failure. Some of the most biggest, | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
highly capitalised, and most ruthless companies in the food | :13:40. | :13:45. | |
system, have been found to be selling horsemeat, the jewel in the | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
crown of how they manage the system, contracts and specifications, have | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
been busted apart. You can't say that's a bad apple. You can't say | :13:53. | :13:59. | |
that is a rogue Romanian. consumer policy chief at the EU | :13:59. | :14:03. | |
said the EU regulatory regime is one of the safest in the world? | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
This isn't about safety, this is about trust. So far it is not about | :14:07. | :14:12. | |
safety. This is about, does a consumer get what she or he expects | :14:12. | :14:17. | |
to get? This is about what we in Britain had a row about in the mid- | :14:17. | :14:22. | |
19th century, and it ended up in our law with that classic statement, | :14:22. | :14:25. | |
which is basically what Europe has too, which is "food should be of | :14:25. | :14:30. | |
the nature, quality and substance demanded", that ain't what people | :14:30. | :14:34. | |
have got with horse burgers. Peter Kendall, do you think that | :14:34. | :14:38. | |
consumers, if the trust is the issue, I'm sure it is for most | :14:38. | :14:44. | |
people, consumers will trust things more if the EU's plans for more ran | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
Dom testing comes in. -- random testing comes in. It sounds like a | :14:48. | :14:51. | |
drop in the bucket? I think consumers are being concerned they | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
are being sold one thing and then picking up something else from the | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
shelves. I think we have all got to work together to reassure people | :14:59. | :15:03. | |
about where food comes from, and the tests it goes through. I want | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
consumers to look for the tracability of local supply chains. | :15:07. | :15:11. | |
I think something Tim and I would agree on is the notion that it has | :15:11. | :15:16. | |
become such a long chain, such a secure chain around large chunks of | :15:16. | :15:23. | |
Europe and the world, it means it is very easy for a rogue person, a | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
fraudster to get involved in that chain. We need more integrated, | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
designated supply chains, that helps build trust between the | :15:30. | :15:34. | |
farmer and the consumer. Peter Kendall, for instance, if we go | :15:34. | :15:39. | |
into a shop and it says "British beef" we want to believe absolutely | :15:39. | :15:44. | |
that it's British and it is beef. But we don't know? We simply don't | :15:44. | :15:49. | |
know? You do, and I live in Bedfordshire, I shop at the local | :15:49. | :15:52. | |
butcher's, you see the farm it has come from. Some of the retailers | :15:52. | :15:57. | |
are trying to build that sort of relationship up. That's to be | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
applauded. The more the retailers say I know my farmers, I know how | :16:00. | :16:05. | |
they look after them, we have a special regime for both welfare and | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
environmental stewardship, that's a great message. It need not cost the | :16:08. | :16:12. | |
earth. It could be that product going into ordinary value lines as | :16:12. | :16:15. | |
well. You have campaigned on this for quite some time. In terms of | :16:16. | :16:19. | |
the lower end, the value end, it is very difficult, isn't it? It is not | :16:20. | :16:26. | |
as if you can absolutely trace it. We have seen these absolutely | :16:26. | :16:32. | |
incomprehensible chains where we get our kebabs through some places | :16:32. | :16:37. | |
in Europe? In some instances it is worse than horsemeat. We are | :16:37. | :16:41. | |
talking about substitution with high fructose, corn syrup, things | :16:42. | :16:45. | |
that are actually extremely bad for you. What we are trying to do, what | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
has happened to the food system is we have rising food prices, and the | :16:49. | :16:52. | |
food sector is trying to keep the prices the same as they have been | :16:52. | :16:57. | |
in the past. Particularly at the value end. As a result what we are | :16:57. | :17:03. | |
doing is the consumer is the person who is absorbing either reduced | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
ingredient, reduced quality ingredients, packaging that is | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
actually distributing a little bit more air than actual product, and | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
promotions. What we have got to do is just be clear with the consumer, | :17:15. | :17:18. | |
food prices are going up. We have to change our business model. We | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
have to be clear and straight with the consumer. Are you going to be | :17:22. | :17:26. | |
the brave politician who says we should just pay for more our food, | :17:26. | :17:29. | |
given that people are finding it hard to pay any way? At the moment | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
what we have got is consumers who are paying for food that isn't what | :17:32. | :17:36. | |
it says often on the package. And the issue is, that consumers are | :17:36. | :17:41. | |
smart, whether they come from some of my poorest wards, or central | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
London, they are smart people. You give them the right information, | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
they will make the right decisions. But we have had for too long a | :17:48. | :17:54. | |
system which is actually just perpetuating cheap food available | :17:54. | :18:01. | |
at call costs at -- at all cost at all times. Will we pay for more | :18:01. | :18:05. | |
food, it is about trust, perhaps some of us would be happy to pay | :18:05. | :18:09. | |
less for good food as long as we know what we are getting? This is | :18:09. | :18:14. | |
the moment when the British love affair with the cheap food policy, | :18:14. | :18:21. | |
we have had since 1846, is now being exposed. It got exposed in | :18:21. | :18:26. | |
World War I and 2, the oil price of the 1970s and the oil price and | :18:26. | :18:30. | |
commodity and exploitation of 2007/08. It has brought it to us | :18:30. | :18:34. | |
that food isn't that cheap, the environment pays for it, Laura's | :18:34. | :18:37. | |
point is healthcare pays for it. What we think is cheap food isn't. | :18:38. | :18:43. | |
Other bits are paying for it. France that is the same? They pay a | :18:43. | :18:47. | |
lot more. They may be eating stuff that they think is lasagne made | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
from beef and it is not. It is not just about cheap food? I take your | :18:51. | :18:56. | |
point. Absolutely, as Peter was saying, this is about the new | :18:56. | :18:59. | |
complex long supply chains. We have actually got different business | :18:59. | :19:02. | |
model, we have to go for a different business model. Peter | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
Kendall, what do you think, it is about confidence, it is about trugs, | :19:06. | :19:14. | |
but what do you think -- trust, but what do you would convince the | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
British -- do you think would convince the British consumers they | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
can trust what will the EU or the British Government do? We have to | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
rectify and get the tests done. I think tracability and insurance | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
schemes. Because of the past problems we have had in the UK | :19:29. | :19:31. | |
around BSE, we have the most rigorous testing you have ever seen | :19:31. | :19:35. | |
in the UK. But as well as that, farmers have their own voluntary | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
scheme, where they pay for independent inspectors to come and | :19:38. | :19:45. | |
check their farms. That is the Red Tractor logo scheme, that builds | :19:45. | :19:48. | |
confidence, and farmers paying other people to check on them. | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
you think farmers are up for more regulation. It sounds like British | :19:52. | :19:55. | |
farmers are going to have to stomach some more regulation, just | :19:56. | :19:59. | |
because other people are doing dodgy things? No, I think we can do | :19:59. | :20:03. | |
this with partnerships throughout the supply chain, as long as | :20:03. | :20:11. | |
retailers step up to the mark. Jody Scheckter was right, we don't want | :20:11. | :20:13. | |
more regulation, we implement environmental and tracing standards | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
in the UK and they don't apply elsewhere. One of the problems that | :20:16. | :20:20. | |
will come out of all of this, is we don't monitor horse movements in | :20:20. | :20:25. | |
the way we do cattle. And that could be the absolute weakness in | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
this whole chain that horses haven't been monitored. I think we | :20:29. | :20:32. | |
are talking about meat here, but actually the whole food system, we | :20:32. | :20:35. | |
need education and that's being introduced in the curriculum. We | :20:35. | :20:38. | |
need to value food in a very different way. I think it's going | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
to be the poorest families who will actually get the greatest benefit | :20:42. | :20:46. | |
from more nutritional food, and more skills to be able to actually | :20:46. | :20:50. | |
manage a budget more effectively. You can't do that overnight? Not at | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
all, we need over the transition period, from the period of really | :20:54. | :20:57. | |
cheap and sometimes less than great food, to a period, to a place where | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
we will value food, and be able to use it more effectively in our | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
houses. Tim, do you think we are now going to look at lots of other | :21:04. | :21:10. | |
things now and say can we trust this and that in that tin. Is this | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
just the beginning of something? could be. There are lots of other | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
products that, frankly, if DNA testing is applied, you wonder what | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
will be found out. This is about money and power and it is about | :21:21. | :21:27. | |
control. One of the things, let's go back to the 1990s be when we had | :21:27. | :21:31. | |
the food safety crisis, we created the Food Standards Agency, it | :21:31. | :21:36. | |
became the European model. The European Food Safety Authority, and | :21:36. | :21:39. | |
so on. It is not doing its job. The new chair is about to be appointed, | :21:39. | :21:44. | |
we have to make sure they do his or her job. We need more inspectors, | :21:44. | :21:48. | |
they have been slashed and cut. We can't have industry policing itself, | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
that is what has gone wrong. The big food companies didn't actually | :21:51. | :22:00. | |
have the control they said they had. Stay with us for the front pages. | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
Also in the programme, Greece's opposition leader accuses his | :22:04. | :22:07. | |
Government of pursuing a strategy that is dangerous to democracy | :22:07. | :22:13. | |
itself. What's the Labour Party for, you | :22:13. | :22:17. | |
might think with opinion polls tending to show a Labour lead over | :22:17. | :22:20. | |
the Conservatives nationally, the answer is rather obvious, to oppose | :22:20. | :22:23. | |
the coalition's cuts and austerity. Actually that is what Labour's | :22:23. | :22:27. | |
against. When it comes to new policies and new thinking, for what | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
Ed Miliband calls "one-nation Labour", there is a slogan, but | :22:31. | :22:35. | |
what lies behind it. The man charged with conducting Labour's | :22:35. | :22:39. | |
policy review is the MP, Jon Cruddas. He has rarely given much | :22:39. | :22:45. | |
away. Tonight he might just do so. They say it is a blank piece of | :22:45. | :22:51. | |
paper what the Labour Party might do in environment in 2015. | :22:51. | :22:56. | |
That scares some as increasingly favourable opinion polls could | :22:56. | :23:00. | |
pitch the opposition into power in two-and-a-half years time. For one | :23:00. | :23:06. | |
man, the paper isn't blank. But bears the impression of this place. | :23:06. | :23:09. | |
When the Labour Party offer eventually comes, it will have been | :23:09. | :23:13. | |
made in Dagenham. Tomorrow Jon Cruddas, Labour's policy chief, | :23:13. | :23:18. | |
throws his weight behind an exercise being done by the think- | :23:18. | :23:20. | |
tank, Institute for Public Policy Research. It is an audit on the | :23:21. | :23:24. | |
major social challenges facing Britain, and an update to a ground- | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
breaking one, last done before the 1997 Labour landslide. The Labour | :23:28. | :23:31. | |
Party thinks it knows what it thinks about the current economy, | :23:31. | :23:38. | |
but less about society. Where better to start than in the hands | :23:38. | :23:45. | |
of society's sociologists, the barbers of barking and Dagenham. | :23:45. | :23:55. | |
:23:55. | :23:55. | ||
-- Barking and Dagenham. Just going back, 23 years ago, what were you | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
doing? At the time I was working for Tony Blair, actually. That | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
commission was a landmark piece of work. It set up the agenda for what | :24:02. | :24:05. | |
became the agenda of the Labour Government. Now you have to ask | :24:05. | :24:09. | |
whether the same questions that it posed then are the right ones for | :24:09. | :24:13. | |
today. We have to ask whether we need to put more fundamental | :24:13. | :24:18. | |
questions around the big issues, welfare, housing, the labour market, | :24:18. | :24:21. | |
whether we got that right. This is an attempt to start going into that | :24:21. | :24:26. | |
stuff, and coming up with an agenda that is right for today. | :24:26. | :24:31. | |
If you look at something like tax credits, do you think tax credits, | :24:31. | :24:35. | |
a great big Gordon Brown innovation, they let big companies get away | :24:35. | :24:39. | |
with stuff? They incentivised free riding on employ yes, rather than | :24:39. | :24:44. | |
us folk us cussing on a decent living wage for everyone, that it | :24:44. | :24:48. | |
shouldn't fall very low. That is live around here now. That should | :24:48. | :24:57. | |
go a good departure point for a Labour agenda in the future. | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
Labour plans not to reveal what they will spend and what they will | :25:00. | :25:06. | |
cut until after the next election. Does that work? We have to | :25:06. | :25:09. | |
acknowledge that the music has stopped economically, we will have | :25:09. | :25:13. | |
to start rebuilding it. Nationally Labour has to show it can do more | :25:13. | :25:18. | |
with less? Absolutely, the money is not there. It is no good saying to | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
the voters, trust this on the other side of an election? I think people | :25:22. | :25:24. | |
will demand clarity and priorities and they will demand a real sense | :25:24. | :25:27. | |
of purpose in terms of understanding the direction we are | :25:27. | :25:37. | |
:25:37. | :25:41. | ||
going to take the country. Destination two, the Rosie Lee. | :25:41. | :25:45. | |
Simon works for the council, he brings home �1300 a month, after | :25:45. | :25:49. | |
buildings and food he has almost nothing left. What would help you, | :25:49. | :25:57. | |
what can they do? Something is wrong with my tax. I think we can | :25:57. | :26:00. | |
do something around the rents for landlords, we can do something | :26:00. | :26:04. | |
about raising the pay to make sure you get a living wage. You wouldn't | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
be affected by a living age, any increase in living wage he wouldn't | :26:08. | :26:12. | |
be affected by? It is a floor, starting to put building blocks to | :26:12. | :26:16. | |
confront some of the big architectural questions. He said | :26:16. | :26:18. | |
lower taxes, what would you do about that? There is a debate | :26:18. | :26:23. | |
around a 10p tax that would work perfectly with the terms of some of | :26:23. | :26:26. | |
the debate you are experiencing Simon. We have to create a | :26:26. | :26:30. | |
discussion about how we are going to deal with some of these things, | :26:30. | :26:33. | |
where people feel they are getting squeezed from all angles. We are | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
not making a tax policy now, right. What we are trying to do is start | :26:37. | :26:40. | |
talking about some of the issues, about how you can get your wage | :26:40. | :26:45. | |
rate that you can't live on. 2010, what did you think of the | :26:45. | :26:48. | |
Labour Government leaving power, they had done enough for you? | :26:48. | :26:54. | |
not at the time. I think that's why they had to leave power. We pay �24 | :26:54. | :26:58. | |
billion in housing benefit, and we pay �1 billion to build new houses, | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
it plays into the hands of landlords, putting up the rents, | :27:02. | :27:06. | |
and all your money is getting swallowed in terms of what you send | :27:06. | :27:10. | |
out to your landlord. Under Labour that �25 billion housing benefit | :27:10. | :27:15. | |
pot would be in their sights. They might cut it or give it back to | :27:15. | :27:19. | |
councils to use to build houses. This idea could be the third of | :27:19. | :27:21. | |
three measures to deal with the cost of living. More houses to | :27:21. | :27:27. | |
bring down prices and rents. Living wages to bring up pay packets and | :27:27. | :27:30. | |
possibly even lower taxes. This exercise assumes all of this will | :27:30. | :27:36. | |
be done at a time of lower public spending. The think-tank's audit | :27:36. | :27:41. | |
will take aim at market failures, but also a bureaucratic state. | :27:41. | :27:45. | |
Suggesting new networks are stepping into the parts of the | :27:45. | :27:52. | |
welfare state. Far from being broken, Saturday is well, if | :27:52. | :27:59. | |
embattled. Like here, a different Big Society, | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
Labour think it is a better Big Society, might one day a nightly | :28:03. | :28:12. | |
session at the local boxing club, replace a trip to the Jobcentre? | :28:12. | :28:16. | |
Cruddas argues there are networks out there that can do the job of | :28:16. | :28:20. | |
the state for less. I like the Big Society, it has just sort of | :28:20. | :28:23. | |
collapsed, we have to rebuild it in terms of what it could be. I think | :28:23. | :28:28. | |
there is a lot of energy, but it has turned to dust. So Tom why have | :28:28. | :28:31. | |
you come down here tonight, what is your involvement with it? We work | :28:31. | :28:36. | |
with the boxing club, it is really important for us to find young | :28:36. | :28:42. | |
people, who are what we call "job ready", he understand punctuality, | :28:42. | :28:45. | |
attendance, and attitude to work and colleagues. We have a lot of | :28:45. | :28:48. | |
jobs but not enough people to put them in. There is a department just | :28:48. | :28:54. | |
around the corner, the DWP, they are really just ticking a lot ofs. | :28:54. | :28:59. | |
That is the Jobcentre? Really brokering jobs for some of these | :28:59. | :29:05. | |
kids, they are not on the park. I like this as a working model. | :29:05. | :29:09. | |
would give Jobcentre moneys to something like this? Absolutely, | :29:09. | :29:12. | |
four or five jobs that get brokered don't go near the Department of | :29:12. | :29:15. | |
Work and Pensions, they are in partnerships like this, this is the | :29:15. | :29:21. | |
future as far as I see. As the state has shriveled, civic society | :29:22. | :29:25. | |
has moved in to feed the most vulnerable. Jon Cruddas not only | :29:25. | :29:29. | |
thinks that foodbanks exists, he thinks these are a positive | :29:29. | :29:32. | |
development for us. These will be around definitely. They are here to | :29:32. | :29:37. | |
statement we are getting more and mosh pressure to get more and more | :29:37. | :29:40. | |
food distributed. Over the last couple of years this community has | :29:40. | :29:44. | |
shown it has the capacity to do it. What Ken has planned, what we are | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
doing in terms of purchasing energy, and rebuilding the social capital, | :29:48. | :29:53. | |
in terms of counselling people, giving them local advice, pooling | :29:53. | :29:57. | |
white goods, children's toys, it is possible. It is the future and it | :29:57. | :30:00. | |
is not going away. We have to step in and rebuild safety nets as | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
others disappear. So if there are new safety nets, | :30:03. | :30:09. | |
the party may also move to a new ideal, in welfare, those who have | :30:09. | :30:18. | |
contributed deserve more back. How long have you both been in | :30:18. | :30:22. | |
work? You have almost continued to be in work for 30 years you were | :30:22. | :30:27. | |
saying? About 30 years now, continuously. What about you? | :30:27. | :30:31. | |
for about 20 years. What we were talking about is whether if someone | :30:31. | :30:34. | |
had been in work that long and fell on hard times, whether they should | :30:34. | :30:38. | |
get slightly more, because they have contributed all their working | :30:38. | :30:41. | |
lives, and whether that would build more confidence in the benefits | :30:41. | :30:46. | |
system if that were the case. think that would be more, should | :30:46. | :30:50. | |
get more, the more you paid in, the more you should get. Somebody like | :30:50. | :30:56. | |
Paul, if he suddenly found himself out of works, he would get a higher | :30:56. | :30:59. | |
level of jobseeker's allowance than the �70 at the moment? We are | :30:59. | :31:02. | |
saying there is a discussion-to-to be had about having an earnings- | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
related element, the longer you contribute to the system. It is a | :31:06. | :31:11. | |
debate we should have, whether it would build more confidence in the | :31:11. | :31:15. | |
benefits system. There used to be an earning-related element to it | :31:15. | :31:20. | |
years ago. Not much time to go until the next election. At the | :31:20. | :31:24. | |
half way point there are some shapes discernable on Labour's | :31:24. | :31:31. | |
piece of paper, just no indelible ink. | :31:31. | :31:34. | |
I spoke to Jon Cruddas before coming on air. | :31:34. | :31:38. | |
You are in charge of Labour as policy review, isn't your policy at | :31:38. | :31:42. | |
the next election, effectively, going to be, whatever Ed Balls said | :31:42. | :31:47. | |
you can afford? There are outstanding economic issues. There | :31:47. | :31:50. | |
are issues of expenditure, the financial envelope as they call it. | :31:50. | :31:54. | |
That is a core element to it. You will see the leader make a major | :31:54. | :31:56. | |
economic speech in the morning. There is also a launch tomorrow | :31:56. | :32:00. | |
morning of a major initiative around social policy. It is not | :32:00. | :32:03. | |
just exclusively about the economic, but they are front and centre. | :32:03. | :32:06. | |
reason Ed Balls said in December, until we know the state of the | :32:06. | :32:09. | |
economy, the stay of the public finances, it is very hard for us to | :32:09. | :32:12. | |
know what we can possibly say. The impression is, that you have been | :32:12. | :32:16. | |
struck dumb, really, in the past two years. You can't say anything, | :32:16. | :32:21. | |
of any substance, about what you would actually do? That is | :32:21. | :32:24. | |
interesting, that is a live view in the commentary, but we have a | :32:24. | :32:27. | |
really thorough process on going in terms of the policy review. We have | :32:27. | :32:32. | |
sorted out the strublgures, the timeline, the -- structure, the | :32:32. | :32:35. | |
timelines, the responsibilities. I'm involved in all those meetings | :32:35. | :32:39. | |
and it is a lively process. I won't systematically deliver all the | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
policies today, but I think I can confidently say we have a thorough | :32:43. | :32:48. | |
process on going. You have a process, but the beef as it were? | :32:48. | :32:52. | |
Slightly inappropriate use of language there. Rather than the | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
bull perhaps! Where are the policies, you have this process, it | :32:55. | :33:00. | |
does come down to pwha you are going to have to afford. -- to what | :33:00. | :33:05. | |
you can are going it afford. You said opposing the cuts without an | :33:05. | :33:09. | |
alternative is no good? That is precisely what we are doing, we are | :33:09. | :33:12. | |
building the alternative now I won't give you a real-time | :33:12. | :33:14. | |
commentary about the discussions we are having and the ideas we have | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
concluded and come to. That will come later. There is a sequence. | :33:17. | :33:20. | |
How much later? You will gradually see this come into the public | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
domain over the next months. We have a programme, we have the | :33:24. | :33:26. | |
timeline, we have the responsibilities, the deadlines and | :33:26. | :33:29. | |
the ideas. And actually, to tell you the truth, before I took on | :33:29. | :33:33. | |
this job, I wasn't awash with confidence that we those wheels | :33:33. | :33:38. | |
turning. Having seen it at very close quarters, I'm confident we | :33:38. | :33:43. | |
will have a robust policy agenda to submit before the British people. | :33:43. | :33:47. | |
Eventually? Yes, because there is a fixed-term parliament, there is 26 | :33:47. | :33:50. | |
months before the likely time of the next election. I'm very | :33:50. | :33:53. | |
confident about the trajectory of the policy making and the | :33:54. | :33:59. | |
construction and the direction and leadership provided. Give as you | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
clue in terms of the ideology. Michael Foot's Labour Party of over | :34:02. | :34:05. | |
here, and Tony Blair's Labour Party was over here. Where is Ed | :34:05. | :34:12. | |
Miliband's Labour party? We have just come off the back of, arguably | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
the worse collision with the electorate, excuse us coming in and | :34:15. | :34:20. | |
saying there is an on-off button. I'm asking for a clue, the voters | :34:20. | :34:27. | |
need a clue? In 1993 someone once said half the people wanted to meet | :34:27. | :34:32. | |
the Labour Party, and the others wanted the Russians in to bust the | :34:32. | :34:36. | |
police. Tony Blair came together for a brilliant model. Hold on, | :34:36. | :34:40. | |
just wait for one moment. Tomorrow we're unveil ago major piece of | :34:40. | :34:46. | |
work in terms of the commission of social justice 25 years furd on T | :34:46. | :34:50. | |
will discuss the contours of British society, and come up with | :34:50. | :34:54. | |
radical, new innovative thinking. Again, might say, I'm part of the | :34:54. | :34:59. | |
commentary, where is the substance. I'm asking on behalf of the voters. | :34:59. | :35:06. | |
We know it is one-nation Labour, that is a great slogan. It seems to | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
mean whatever you didn't like us before we are something different. | :35:09. | :35:12. | |
What is the something different on that spectrum. Do you have any clue, | :35:12. | :35:16. | |
ideolgically, Michael Foot, Tony Blair, where is Ed Miliband? Wait, | :35:16. | :35:20. | |
if the clock is ticking, so may I tentatively suggest you wait for | :35:20. | :35:24. | |
example until tomorrow, where you will see a major substantive piece | :35:24. | :35:29. | |
of economic policy articulated by our leader. You will see over a | :35:29. | :35:33. | |
couple of months ahead intervention on welfare, education, immigration. | :35:33. | :35:37. | |
With all due curtesy, I would tentatively suggest to you that | :35:37. | :35:42. | |
this is some sort of take on what is going on. Below the surface | :35:42. | :35:45. | |
there is a lot of work going on, we will deliver it to the British | :35:45. | :35:48. | |
public. You would understand, although I did ask and we would | :35:48. | :35:52. | |
love to hear specific policies, we have been endlessly patient, and | :35:52. | :35:57. | |
for two years. I'm asking for some kind of clue, ideolgically, where | :35:57. | :36:01. | |
you are? I would suggest you study the speech Ed will make in the | :36:01. | :36:04. | |
morning. And all will be clear tomorrow night? That is the trite | :36:04. | :36:08. | |
flipant journalistic reply. I would tentatively suggest to you, have a | :36:08. | :36:11. | |
look at it and the Commission on Social Justice. Or what is coming | :36:11. | :36:17. | |
up tomorrow, which is called The Condition of Britain, it is a | :36:17. | :36:20. | |
serious piece of thinking on the social policy in this country at | :36:20. | :36:24. | |
the moment. I suggest you have a look at them. Are you qernd that | :36:24. | :36:28. | |
voters don't actually - concerned that voters don't really know that | :36:28. | :36:32. | |
apart from opposing the cuts and austerity what you really stand for. | :36:32. | :36:35. | |
That is a really big concern. Why should they vote for you? I put my | :36:35. | :36:39. | |
hands up, I live in the real world, I know this is not the finished | :36:39. | :36:44. | |
article in terms of the substantive policy ideas. All I would say is we | :36:44. | :36:48. | |
have had a major discussion with the electorate a couple of years | :36:48. | :36:51. | |
ago, we didn't come off too well. We have to thoroughly rebuild from | :36:51. | :36:55. | |
the bottom up. One argument is, if we keep our mouth should we might | :36:55. | :37:00. | |
get across the line, by default. that Ed Balls's idea? We have to | :37:00. | :37:04. | |
come up with radical innovative thinking, the Labour Party sits on | :37:04. | :37:07. | |
the latter rather than the former, that will be delivered over the | :37:07. | :37:12. | |
next months and years. On Europe, in the referendum on the EU, you | :37:12. | :37:16. | |
said this is about democracy and respecting the people. Were you | :37:16. | :37:19. | |
disappointed that Ed Miliband's first instinct was to say no? | :37:19. | :37:25. | |
didn't say that. With all due respect. He did say it in the | :37:25. | :37:28. | |
Commons, it was corrected later when he was rowing back? There is | :37:28. | :37:32. | |
small ball around Westminster to literally say what he said. What he | :37:32. | :37:36. | |
meant. Ah, what he meant. He meant the position had had not changed | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
for our support of a possibility of a referendum down the road. | :37:39. | :37:43. | |
Depending on the shape of the discussion, the proposed | :37:43. | :37:48. | |
repatriation of powers deployed by David Cameron. We will see where we | :37:48. | :37:52. | |
goat to. You think it is about democracy and supporting the | :37:52. | :37:58. | |
people? It gives politics a bad name if I disinvent things I said | :37:58. | :38:00. | |
before taking on the job. Thank you very much. | :38:00. | :38:03. | |
Before the end of the programme we will have the front pages. First, | :38:03. | :38:07. | |
with the Greek economy still deep in recession, a man who came close | :38:07. | :38:13. | |
to being the European Union's first Marxist Prime Minister, has upped | :38:13. | :38:17. | |
the political ante in Brussels. Alexis Tsipras, nicknamed Sexy | :38:17. | :38:21. | |
Alexi by British tabloids, has ayes cuesed Greek coalition Government | :38:21. | :38:24. | |
of operate ago strategy of blackmail, terrorism and tension. | :38:24. | :38:28. | |
We went to meet Mr Tsipras and find out if democracy really is in | :38:28. | :38:37. | |
danger in Greece. The piece contains flash photography. | :38:37. | :38:41. | |
Greece is a country where economic crisis has given way to social | :38:41. | :38:47. | |
crisis. The far right on the march, strikes paralysing the capital and | :38:47. | :38:51. | |
now political violence. The police have cleared out anarchist squat, | :38:51. | :38:55. | |
and someone fired a Kalashnikov at the headquarters of the ruling | :38:55. | :39:00. | |
party. Now the left-wing opposition leader, Alexis Tsipras, has upped | :39:00. | :39:04. | |
the ante, accusing the Government of a strategy of tension, akin to | :39:04. | :39:14. | |
that pursued by the Italian Secret Service in the 1970s. TRANSLATION: | :39:14. | :39:20. | |
In 1969 a bomb in Milan left 17 dead. It was a dawn of a long | :39:20. | :39:23. | |
period where far right and fascist groups, in collaboration with the | :39:23. | :39:25. | |
Italian Secret Services, the parallel state, and the state | :39:25. | :39:29. | |
within a state, developed what came to be called, the strategy of | :39:29. | :39:34. | |
tension. Today the manuals of the European extreme right have become | :39:34. | :39:37. | |
the gospels of the present Greek Government. The coalition | :39:37. | :39:41. | |
Government brought to power by Antonis Samaras last year, has | :39:41. | :39:45. | |
stablised the fiscal swaying. But it is politically fragile. If it | :39:45. | :39:50. | |
falls Mr Tsipras would have a decent chance of becoming modern | :39:50. | :39:56. | |
Europe's first Marxist Prime Minister. Are you seriously saying | :39:56. | :39:59. | |
the Greek state is pursuing a secret strategy of creating violent | :40:00. | :40:06. | |
tension? TRANSLATION: It is not exactly a secret strategy. It is | :40:06. | :40:10. | |
obvious the Government is trying to establish an agenda that | :40:10. | :40:13. | |
intensifies political confligt, which aims at creating a sense of | :40:13. | :40:17. | |
fear within the Greek society. But this strategy, I believe, is a very | :40:17. | :40:22. | |
dangerous one, for democracy itself. If our Government, and Mr Samaras, | :40:22. | :40:26. | |
believe he can run this country forever, using blackmail, terrorism | :40:26. | :40:29. | |
and the tension strategy, he is sadly mistaken. This month, the | :40:30. | :40:35. | |
tension was not notched up some more, four anarchists were caught | :40:35. | :40:39. | |
trying to rob bank. The police photo shopped the arrest shots, | :40:40. | :40:45. | |
because the injuries were received while being beaten in custody, | :40:45. | :40:51. | |
allegedly. Meanwhile the far right Golden Dawn party, which 4% in the | :40:51. | :40:55. | |
polls, openly defends its right to use violence, and is regularly on | :40:55. | :40:59. | |
the streets. For a man whose party has more experience on the streets | :40:59. | :41:03. | |
than Government. It has posed tough questions. The electorate looked at | :41:03. | :41:07. | |
you as a party and thought is this a party that can come to power and | :41:07. | :41:12. | |
run the police force. What will you do about Golden Dawn and anarchist | :41:12. | :41:16. | |
bank robbers. Is this a party to run a Greek state, without the | :41:16. | :41:21. | |
Greek state falling apart and rebelling? TRANSLATION: We will | :41:21. | :41:24. | |
implement and rigidly follow the letter of the law. And "zero | :41:24. | :41:29. | |
tolerance" towards Golden Dawn, which is gang breaking the law. We | :41:29. | :41:34. | |
will uproot all Golden Dawn cells within the Government. There will | :41:34. | :41:38. | |
be legal reprecussions for groups using violence, who say they belong | :41:38. | :41:42. | |
to the anarchist movement. I don't believe they are anarchists, | :41:42. | :41:47. | |
because the use of violence is the most authoritarian act one could | :41:47. | :41:54. | |
exercise. Mr Tsipras lost ground in the polls, after he publicly backed | :41:54. | :42:01. | |
a tube strike that patrol leased Athens. Many say we are crying wolf | :42:01. | :42:05. | |
to cover their on opposition. Tsipras is crying wolf. It is a | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
fact that recently the Government is taking advantage of some of the | :42:09. | :42:13. | |
pronouncement of Mr Tsipras, and throwing it back at him. That is | :42:13. | :42:18. | |
true. The Government also probably has its strategy, which is to | :42:18. | :42:24. | |
reveal what Mr Tsipras is about. To the undecided voters. Mostly | :42:24. | :42:28. | |
because the undecided voters are not radicals. The Greek Government | :42:28. | :42:31. | |
has not publicly responded to Mr Tsipras's claims T thinks it is | :42:32. | :42:36. | |
winning the economic argument, and it is him who is on the ropes. | :42:36. | :42:40. | |
Don't you have to admit that the coalition has stablised the fiscal | :42:40. | :42:46. | |
situation, and they were right, and they did a deal with the IMF and EU, | :42:46. | :42:53. | |
and your ro posed deal would have crashed the Greek economy? | :42:53. | :42:55. | |
TRANSLATION: No serious person could admit something like this. | :42:56. | :43:00. | |
Lock at the data, in Greece, in the last three years, in order to | :43:00. | :43:05. | |
reduce the primary deficit of the Government, by 25 billion euro, we | :43:05. | :43:11. | |
reduced the internal demand by 70 billion euros. The Greek economy | :43:11. | :43:16. | |
shrunk by 70 billion euros. It is like seeing a snake in the tree and | :43:16. | :43:22. | |
deciding to burn the entire for to get rid of the snake. It is | :43:22. | :43:28. | |
sadistic be a surity. It is not just his own rallies where he is | :43:28. | :43:32. | |
feted, he has been all over. The Greek situation is fractious, some | :43:32. | :43:36. | |
worry Mr Tsipras, in his suit, accommodated too much to power, and | :43:36. | :43:41. | |
the men in black T-shirts are the only ones left expressing the anger. | :43:41. | :43:44. | |
Are you the man of the parliamentary opposition, or the | :43:44. | :43:49. | |
man who will lead the tube strikers out here, into a mass uprising | :43:49. | :43:55. | |
against this Government. It is a serious question, and one all left | :43:55. | :43:59. | |
oppositions have to answer? TRANSLATION: I think this is | :43:59. | :44:03. | |
exactly our biggest advantage. We can be at the same time the | :44:03. | :44:06. | |
parliamentary opposition, and tomorrow the Government. At the | :44:06. | :44:10. | |
same time we can be down in the streets, fighting and mobilising | :44:10. | :44:14. | |
the masses. In Greece we have people that are committing suicide. | :44:14. | :44:19. | |
Every day beaten by absolute despair. In order for those people | :44:19. | :44:24. | |
to live, they need to defeat the fear and claim their rights. | :44:24. | :44:29. | |
He lost the election, just, and the in coming Government did stablise | :44:29. | :44:32. | |
things economically. But memories of the secret state, the Cold War, | :44:33. | :44:37. | |
destablisation, will always have the power to polarise and split | :44:37. | :44:44. | |
Greek politics. That, really, is what Mr Tsipras is trying to do. | :44:44. | :44:54. | |
:44:54. | :44:54. | ||
Apology for the loss of subtitles for 46 seconds | :44:54. | :45:41. | |
We wanted to leave you with a reminder that tomorrow is | :45:41. | :45:45. | |
Valentine's Day, and some romantically inclined as tomorrow | :45:45. | :45:52. | |
tron mers have released a picture of planetry nebular 172 who they | :45:52. | :45:57. | |
say looks like a Valentine's rose in the heavens. But some say it | :45:57. | :46:07. | |
:46:07. | :46:33. | ||
We have certainly seen disruptive snow through the day today. Very | :46:33. | :46:36. | |
icey through the rest of the evening overnight. And pretty wet | :46:36. | :46:41. | |
across England and Wales. That rain taking a while to clear away, | :46:41. | :46:43. | |
potential surface flooding. It looks brighter and dryer through | :46:43. | :46:47. | |
the day on Thursday. Temperatures considerably higher than they have | :46:47. | :46:50. | |
been through the day today as well. What a difference the day makes. A | :46:50. | :46:54. | |
few showers around following the rain. Very few getting into eastern | :46:54. | :46:58. | |
areas, they will be peppering areas further west, for example across | :46:58. | :47:02. | |
the south west of England and Wales. Winds easing down as well, they | :47:02. | :47:06. | |
will be blowing a gale across England, continuing over Scotland. | :47:06. | :47:10. | |
Enough to push the showers across the Cheshire gap through the | :47:10. | :47:13. | |
Midland. A few showers through the day across Northern Ireland, not as | :47:13. | :47:16. | |
wet as today. There will be a fair few showers blowing into the North | :47:16. | :47:20. | |
West of Scotland. Quite wet here. The winds and rain easing away from | :47:20. | :47:24. | |
the Northern Isles as well. A very different day, a risk of ice | :47:24. | :47:28. | |
through the night into morning. What about Friday? It looks as if | :47:28. | :47:34. | |
the fine and dry weather will hang around on Friday. One or two icey | :47:34. | :47:38. | |
patches, given the clear skies at night. The rain clearing away on | :47:38. | :47:43. | |
Thursday first thing, brightening up, a dry and bright day on Friday. | :47:43. | :47:47. |