19/02/2013 Newsnight


19/02/2013

Is the NHS letting children down? Greece's migration problem; and why the inventor of the wind-up radio is strapped for cash. With Gavin Esler.


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Transcript


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The shocking facts about our healthcare. We lag way behind the

:00:12.:00:16.

best of Europe in treating sick children. Where you live determines

:00:16.:00:22.

what your child gets from the NHS, and lives are being lost.

:00:22.:00:26.

Can it be improved, while the NHS is being organised and money is

:00:26.:00:29.

tight. We will be asking the children's

:00:29.:00:32.

Health Minister to tell us his plans.

:00:32.:00:36.

Also tonight, Greece's ever-longer lines of those seeking asylum, and

:00:36.:00:39.

how the authorities make it very clear they are definitely not

:00:39.:00:44.

wanted. The men who still live here, just

:00:44.:00:48.

yards from the ferry port say that the police raid here almost every

:00:48.:00:55.

night, and it is nearly time for that moment now. So time to leave.

:00:55.:00:59.

This building in Shanghai, is believed to be where the world's

:00:59.:01:03.

most organised and ruthless cyberhackers, working for the

:01:03.:01:10.

Chinese military, are stealing secrets. Or, should we believe

:01:11.:01:13.

Beijing's denials. This is in the Guinness Book of Records, it is my

:01:13.:01:17.

electric shoe. He created one of the most successful British

:01:17.:01:20.

inventions, the wind-up radio, among other things. Now Trevor

:01:20.:01:30.
:01:30.:01:36.

Baylis is strapped for cash. Do we fail to protect clever ideas.

:01:36.:01:40.

Good evening, it is a shocking fact that child mortality in Britain is

:01:40.:01:44.

the worst when compared to similar European countries. There is

:01:44.:01:48.

unacceptable variation across the country in the quality of care for

:01:48.:01:53.

children. For example, in the treatment of asthma and diabetes.

:01:53.:01:57.

The words of the Health Minister, Daniel Poulter, who will explain

:01:57.:02:01.

what he intends to do about the shocking fact in a moment. It comes

:02:01.:02:04.

as the Government announced a national pledge aimed at improving

:02:04.:02:08.

the care of children within the NHS, while preparing for wide scale

:02:08.:02:14.

reforms to the service. Diaz Brockhouse has type I, the

:02:14.:02:18.

more dangerous type, of diabetes. She was diagnosed two years ago,

:02:18.:02:22.

when she was just 11.. I did think I was going to die when I was

:02:23.:02:26.

diagnosed with diabetes. I didn't know what it was. All I knew was

:02:26.:02:30.

that there was a type of diabetes that people got when they were

:02:30.:02:34.

overweight. I thought I'm not overweight, how has this happened

:02:34.:02:38.

to me. I was really, really scared. She has to check her blood sugar

:02:38.:02:45.

level several times a day, and take insulin accordingly. Even though

:02:45.:02:48.

she and her parents watch it closely sometimes the levels do

:02:48.:02:52.

rise too far and too fast. Local specialist nurses are expert in

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this condition, according to the family, some hospital doctors less

:02:58.:03:00.

so. If we have problems out of hours, during the night or the

:03:00.:03:05.

weekends, we have to ring the hospital, and they will bleep the

:03:05.:03:08.

paediatric registrar. We have found that they have really no idea, to

:03:08.:03:12.

be honest. We have conflicting ideas and advice from them. When we

:03:12.:03:16.

talk to the nurses on Monday or Tuesday, they say it shouldn't be

:03:16.:03:19.

done like that. Sometimes they don't know what we are talking

:03:19.:03:26.

about. Once I injected a fast-rate insulin, and we were panicked it

:03:26.:03:32.

could have sent me really low and into a comb ma. We rang up the

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Regis trairs and they said eat -- registrars and they said eat a lot

:03:37.:03:44.

of cashes, but we asked the nurses and they said, no. I don't want to

:03:44.:03:48.

ring the Regis trars, because I don't trust them. We don't ring any

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more. We speak to friends, we have a support group speaking to other

:03:51.:03:55.

mothers. Through our own information and our own seeking of

:03:55.:03:59.

information we have learned how to do it ourselves. Their experience

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shows even at a local level advice can be inconsistent. According to

:04:05.:04:11.

the charity, Diabetes UK, across the country there is inconsistency

:04:11.:04:14.

in the quality of treatment for children with diabetes. We know

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type I diabetes is a growing problem in children and young

:04:19.:04:23.

people. They need expert care to manage it. That care comes from

:04:23.:04:28.

specialists. We have seen specialist posts being cut and

:04:28.:04:31.

children finding it difficult getting access to them. That is

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something that really needs to change. In recent years, the health

:04:35.:04:39.

outcomes of British children have been improving. But not as fast as

:04:39.:04:49.
:04:49.:04:50.

in other, northern European Today the Health Minister has

:04:50.:04:55.

announced a national pledge to reduce child deaths, more expert

:04:55.:05:00.

treatment is essential. But the ever-leaner Children's Hospital --

:05:00.:05:03.

in the Evelina Children's Hospital Hospital in south London, doctors

:05:03.:05:07.

provide expert care in many areas. They are planning to spread their

:05:07.:05:12.

expertise, by working more closely in future with other hospitals and

:05:12.:05:15.

GPs. London suffers from fragmentation, that is right. It is

:05:15.:05:20.

something we all acknowledge and want to put right. That's across

:05:20.:05:27.

specialist services. But in our own community, also. -- that is also

:05:27.:05:31.

something we feel passionately about this, in our own community,

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and bringing the richness we have in our tergsry services here into

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the kind of -- tertiary services here to other children.

:05:43.:05:48.

In some parts of the country paediatric child health, up to 50%

:05:48.:05:51.

of family doctors had no specialist training in this area. This

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initiative is intended to put children at the heart of the NHS.

:05:55.:06:00.

By improving information, improving treatment, the aim is to cut child

:06:00.:06:06.

mortality. But it comes at a time when the entire NHS is itself being

:06:06.:06:10.

reformed and restructured. At the same time, the NHS is trying

:06:10.:06:16.

to improve productivity, so it can cope with rising demand.

:06:16.:06:20.

The NHS is a large organisation, but there is only so much change it

:06:20.:06:24.

can cope with at any one time. Having said that, quality is number

:06:24.:06:27.

one, therefore all eyes will be on trying to improve the quality of

:06:27.:06:29.

care across the board for all groups of patients, children as

:06:29.:06:36.

well as adults. Today's pledge is intended to encourage all parts of

:06:36.:06:40.

the NHS to work together to improve children's health. Not only to make

:06:40.:06:44.

care better, but to investigate variations in survival rates across

:06:44.:06:48.

the country. It has been welcomed by some, but others wonder whether

:06:48.:06:51.

it will have an impact everywhere, given the other changes under way

:06:52.:06:57.

in the NHS. Shortly before we came on air I

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spoke to the Health Minister, Dr Daniel Poulter, from our Ipswich

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studio. Dr Poulter, if British healthcare

:07:05.:07:09.

for children were really up with the best in Europe, how many lives

:07:09.:07:14.

do you think we could save every year? I think you are absolutely

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right to point out the fact that in this country there has been for too

:07:18.:07:22.

long an unacceptable variation in the quality of healthcare provided

:07:22.:07:25.

for many children. In some parts of the country we do it very well, in

:07:25.:07:30.

other parts of the country we don't. That's unacceptable, we need to

:07:30.:07:36.

have high standards everywhere. It could be many tens of lives every

:07:36.:07:40.

year that actually we could potentially save, if we did things

:07:40.:07:46.

better in the NHS. Around a quarter of child deaths showed, I'm quoting

:07:46.:07:51.

here, "identifiable failure in the child's direct care". Yet your

:07:51.:07:56.

solution appears to be people signing a pledge, there should be a

:07:56.:07:59.

review and better use of the data. Parents all over the country will

:07:59.:08:03.

think that's not good enough? is a lot more to it than that.

:08:03.:08:07.

First of all, it is about making sure we get sign-up, not just from

:08:07.:08:10.

Government and the NHS, but local authorities, who play a key role in

:08:10.:08:14.

making sure that we look after children and give every child the

:08:14.:08:17.

best start in life. It is also about building on some of the

:08:17.:08:20.

things we have already done since we have been in Government, in

:08:20.:08:23.

particular focusing on the early years, which is is so important in

:08:23.:08:26.

children's health and development. It is also about making sure we put

:08:26.:08:30.

the money into the right place. From April this year, money for all

:08:30.:08:35.

of the NHS will be going into the community. So that actually we can

:08:35.:08:41.

focus on the important preventive care measures, and keep children,

:08:41.:08:44.

in particular those with long-term conditions, like asthma and

:08:44.:08:48.

diabetes, well in their own homes and supported in their communities.

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We will come on to asthma and diabetes in a moment. Many parents

:08:51.:08:55.

will find it absolutely shocking that up to quarter of all patients

:08:55.:08:59.

are children, but The Royal College of Paediatrics Al-Saadi in many

:08:59.:09:03.

parts of the country, half of GPs have no paediatric health training.

:09:03.:09:07.

That sounds extraordinary, what will do about that? This is exactly

:09:07.:09:11.

why we have to have a system-wide approach to this. It is about The

:09:11.:09:18.

Royal College of GPs, working to improve GPs' training, and looking

:09:18.:09:23.

closely at how to extend GPs' training at the moment. And

:09:23.:09:27.

ensuring there will be mandatory train anything paediatric.

:09:27.:09:32.

mentioned diabetes, in some areas around 6% of children with diabetes

:09:32.:09:36.

are unnecessarily referred to hospitals, in other areas it is

:09:36.:09:41.

seven-times as much, 46%. Why does that happen? It is the fact that in

:09:41.:09:44.

some parts of the country, Newcastle for example, there is a

:09:44.:09:48.

service which is geared up to community-based care, and

:09:48.:09:52.

preventive care. About 1500 young people a year, who don't need to be

:09:52.:09:57.

in hospital, are better supported in the community. Their diabetes is

:09:57.:10:01.

better managed and they are better cared for. Other illnesses, long-

:10:01.:10:05.

term illnesses like asthma, they are better supported within the

:10:05.:10:09.

community. It is not that people don't want to be wicked or bad to

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our children, there is not people in the NHS deliberately trying to

:10:13.:10:16.

subvert things. Why don't other places follow the best practice,

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even in Britain, never mind Europe? This is exactly the point that we

:10:21.:10:24.

have made and why we have brought it into focus today, through the

:10:24.:10:28.

pledge we have put across. It is unacceptable that there is that

:10:28.:10:32.

variation in care. And it is about making sure that across the health

:10:32.:10:37.

service we recognise that variation is unacceptable, and we put, for

:10:37.:10:41.

the first time, an at last in place, that shows where care is good and

:10:41.:10:47.

not so good. This comes, of course, after the mess in Staffordshire,

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also comes with 14 hospital trusts facing investigation. We have the

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stories about a whistleblower not being listened to because of

:10:56.:11:00.

bureaucracy would rather shut him up. I wonder how serious is the

:11:00.:11:06.

reputational damage to the NHS putting all this together? I'm a

:11:06.:11:10.

doctor, and a Health Minister, I care and love the NHS, that is why

:11:10.:11:13.

I chose to work in it. But it is also about having a grown-up

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conversation, and saying that because we love the NHS we have to

:11:17.:11:21.

recognise where things need to be better. It is about system-wide

:11:21.:11:24.

change, to prioritise children's health. That is exactly what we are

:11:24.:11:28.

doing through this. It is also about making sure we don't just

:11:28.:11:31.

focus on the community-based cautious but also on the crucial

:11:31.:11:33.

early years, which is why we are putting so much money and

:11:33.:11:36.

investment into increasing the number of health visitors to

:11:36.:11:39.

support young mums and families get the best start in life. It would be

:11:39.:11:43.

very difficult for you, as a health minister even though you love the

:11:43.:11:50.

NHS to tell the people of Britain tonight that the NHS is envy of the

:11:50.:11:55.

world? The NHS is imitated and admired throughout the world. It

:11:55.:11:59.

doesn't matter how much we love the NHS, there is always things that

:11:59.:12:02.

could be done better. We have to be honest about that and face up to

:12:02.:12:07.

the fact if we want to keep the NHS as the envy of the world, if things

:12:07.:12:09.

go wrong we have to put them right. We heard the Prime Minister

:12:10.:12:13.

yesterday saying it was not acceptable for no senior figure in

:12:13.:12:18.

the NHS to take responsibility for the unnecessary deaths in

:12:18.:12:22.

Staffordshire. Is it time for the chief executive of the NHS, David

:12:22.:12:25.

Nicholson to resign. You are the Health Minister, he's the Prime

:12:25.:12:31.

Minister, clearly you are unhappy? The Prime Minister made clear when

:12:31.:12:34.

he made the statement about Staffordshire immediately

:12:34.:12:39.

afterwards, it wasn't about picking one or two scapegoat, but it was

:12:39.:12:42.

about learning systematic lessons. David Nicholson can consider his

:12:42.:12:46.

own position. But at the moment we accept the fact that he, like many

:12:46.:12:49.

other people, has made an apology for what he has done. We now need

:12:49.:12:53.

to move on and make sure we never let another Mid Staffordshire

:12:53.:12:59.

Hospital happen again. That have the Health Minister.

:12:59.:13:04.

In a moment, the latest Greek crisis, unwanted migrants, and the

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inventor of the clockwork radio, and why patent protection laws are

:13:08.:13:14.

a wind up. I thought don't worry, you'll get your money back, and did

:13:14.:13:19.

I? No. When it comes to refugees and

:13:19.:13:22.

migrants Greece is the front door of Europe. At one point last year

:13:22.:13:26.

300 people a day were crossing Greece's land border with Turkey

:13:26.:13:32.

illegally. Now there is a crackdown, a mass round up has seen 77,000

:13:32.:13:35.

picked up off the streets in six months. These are the figures, but

:13:35.:13:39.

behind them countless human stories. Paul Mason has been to Greece to

:13:39.:13:43.

hear one man's account of his journey through the system. A

:13:43.:13:50.

system which, as you will hear, is in dire need of reform.

:13:50.:13:56.

Once this was the biggest textile factory in Greece. Today is lies

:13:56.:14:03.

abandoned, and is famous for something else.

:14:03.:14:08.

When I filmed here a year ago, hundreds of migrants were squatting

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in the factory, desperate to get out of Greece, and scathing about

:14:12.:14:15.

the way this country treats them. This is not Europe. It doesn't feel

:14:15.:14:20.

like Europe, why? I used to live London, this is not Europe. Then my

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guide was this man, Mohammed in red, a Moroccan, living in the factory.

:14:28.:14:38.
:14:38.:14:38.

Back then, as we left the place, I never expected to see him again.

:14:38.:14:45.

Today the factory looks quiet, deserted. There has been a big

:14:45.:14:50.

police round up of the migrants, and the whole place, at first sight,

:14:50.:14:57.

looks empty. So what's happened to the men who lived here? Well,

:14:57.:15:04.

thanks to luck and Facebook, I'm about to find out. Mohammed, the

:15:04.:15:08.

man who took me in here a year ago has tracked me down from inside a

:15:08.:15:18.

prison cell. Now, he wants to tell his story.

:15:18.:15:23.

The story of one man on a journey from Africa to Europe via a country

:15:23.:15:30.

in crisis. How did so many men end up living

:15:30.:15:36.

in that factory at the port? TRANSLATION: They couldn't find

:15:36.:15:39.

anywhere else to stay, the factory was empty, we started going in

:15:39.:15:44.

there to sleep. We slept in the suers, because the police came --

:15:44.:15:50.

sewers, because the police came and looked for us every day. The mice

:15:50.:15:53.

and rats used to run over us. But life in the abandoned factory

:15:53.:16:00.

was soon to end. Two months after we filmed there, it came under

:16:00.:16:04.

attack by local people and busloads of protestors from the far right

:16:04.:16:09.

party, Golden Dawn. Only the riot police stood between

:16:09.:16:17.

them and the migrants. TRANSLATION: They hit people, we thought if they

:16:17.:16:21.

find one of us they will kill them, because they are fascists. The

:16:21.:16:24.

police had to stop them coming in. My friends were afraid. But

:16:24.:16:27.

immigrants don't really understand what is going on around them. They

:16:27.:16:31.

have only one thing on their mind, that is to leave Greece. They are

:16:31.:16:35.

not interested in Golden Dawn. With hostility to the migrants

:16:35.:16:39.

growing, last August the Government launched a sustained police

:16:39.:16:45.

operation to find and detain those with no right to be here.

:16:45.:16:53.

Is it called Operation Xenios Zeus, this is how it works.

:16:53.:16:59.

The Greek police have given us access to an Operation Xenios Zeus

:16:59.:17:03.

raid into the square, one of the main squares of Athens. The police

:17:04.:17:08.

invited us along, on condition we masked the faces of all involved.

:17:08.:17:13.

They stopped people on the streets, checked their papers. This man has

:17:13.:17:18.

the vital pink card, saying he's claimed asylum. But it is only a

:17:18.:17:23.

photocopy. In this, one of the poorest areas in Athens, the wider

:17:23.:17:30.

impact is to create tension. This is why many migrants choose to

:17:30.:17:36.

stay at home as much as possible. Why is he being stopped? He tells

:17:36.:17:39.

me he's from Bangladesh, he has been here eight months, and lives

:17:39.:17:44.

nearby. The police have destained 77,000

:17:44.:17:52.

people, like this, in the past six months. And sent 4,000 to detention

:17:52.:18:01.

centres to await deportation. Mohammed was one of them.

:18:01.:18:05.

TRANSLATION: I was asleep when they came in, 20 or 30 policemen to pick

:18:05.:18:10.

up five migrants. With so many, you are afraid. They take to you the

:18:10.:18:14.

police station, then the court, and transport you directly to the camp.

:18:14.:18:17.

There was no hearing? TRANSLATION: There was no justice. I didn't

:18:17.:18:24.

understand anything, from the police to the camp. Why? They took

:18:24.:18:32.

him to a detention centre, a former military camp in Corinth. "death or

:18:32.:18:38.

the fatherland" says the far right graffiti on the wall. This is the

:18:38.:18:43.

camp in Corinth where he was taken. Filming is not allowed at the

:18:43.:18:48.

perimeter. The idea was by rounding up immigrants en masse and

:18:48.:18:51.

detaining them like this, it would deter others. There is evidence

:18:51.:18:56.

that it has worked, but not on the scale it would need to solve

:18:56.:19:00.

Greece's problem with migration. No journalists have been allowed to

:19:00.:19:05.

film inside, but while Mohammed was there, a visitor secretly took

:19:05.:19:09.

these shots. TRANSLATION: conditions are very bad. The meals

:19:09.:19:15.

were not good. There were no blankets, no hot showers, only cold

:19:15.:19:21.

water. I went two month without a shower. They played with our state

:19:21.:19:27.

of minds to make us leave the country. We started a hunger strike,

:19:27.:19:34.

but it was ended because they hit us, they didn't let us continue.

:19:34.:19:38.

At refugee centres across Greece, the impact of Operation Xenios Zeus

:19:38.:19:46.

was clear. Many people are not coming as often as they used to,

:19:46.:19:51.

because they are afraid of leaving their houses. The impression that I

:19:51.:19:54.

have is Greek authorities are trying to deliver a message, and

:19:54.:20:00.

the message is do not come here, you are not welcome.

:20:00.:20:04.

But, if that is the message, it is not getting through. These ferry

:20:04.:20:09.

boats to Italy and beyond are like a magnet to illegal migrants trying

:20:09.:20:12.

to enter the rest of Europe, and to the criminal gangs who take them

:20:12.:20:21.

there. Mohammed has managed to lodge an

:20:21.:20:24.

asylum claim, but back at the factory, which is supposed to be

:20:24.:20:29.

secured, it didn't take him long to help us find the men still living

:20:29.:20:36.

there illegally. Where are you from? Brazil. Where are you going?

:20:36.:20:46.
:20:46.:20:46.

The ship. Turkey. Next, where next are you going? Britannia.

:20:46.:20:56.
:20:56.:21:01.

Glasgow. Why Glasgow? Bonita La viva. As I was about to find out,

:21:02.:21:09.

the numbers are being swelled by new conflicts. How are you? Guys,

:21:09.:21:17.

can we come in? OK, where are you from? Syria. Can you just speak

:21:17.:21:23.

Arabic to this guy, where are you from in Syria, which city? Aleppo.

:21:23.:21:29.

Because of the war. What about this guy, where are you from? Algeria.

:21:29.:21:38.

How long have you been here? Eight or nine months. Where do you want

:21:38.:21:48.
:21:48.:21:52.

The men who sleep here know the ferry timetable off by heart. They

:21:52.:21:58.

told us they had each paid 3,000- 4,000 euros to get this far.

:21:58.:22:05.

The men who still live here just yarbdz from the ferry -- yards from

:22:05.:22:09.

the ferry port say the police raid here almost every night. It is

:22:09.:22:17.

nearly time for that moment now, so, time to leave.

:22:17.:22:25.

Every migrant has a different story. Mohammed has a degree, and he has

:22:25.:22:28.

left Morocco because he wants to live a secular lifestyle there and

:22:28.:22:33.

claims he can't. TRANSLATION: It took four-and-a-

:22:33.:22:39.

half hours of flying, Morocco to Turkey, kas blan ka to Istanbul.

:22:39.:22:48.

From Turkey he made four attempts to cross the Evros River into

:22:48.:22:51.

Greece. TRANSLATION: There were me and Afghans in the boat, after ten

:22:51.:22:57.

minutes the boat capsized, we had to swim for it. The boat turned

:22:57.:23:03.

over? TRANSLATION: Three of the Afghans couldn't swim and they

:23:04.:23:07.

drowned. We have no way of verifying that claim, just as we

:23:07.:23:14.

can't verify the stories of thousands of others. But for now,

:23:14.:23:20.

he's in limbo, his asylum claim entitles him to stay in Greece. For

:23:20.:23:24.

the rest he's entitled on volunteers like this woman who runs

:23:24.:23:29.

a volunteer language school. What is happening about the asylum

:23:29.:23:36.

procedure is that only one organisation is charged with the

:23:36.:23:41.

responsibility to help people to provide the legal assistance to

:23:41.:23:46.

apply for asylum. But actually the police only gives one appointment

:23:46.:23:51.

per week to the Red Cross. So you can imagine that we have a big list

:23:51.:23:55.

of hundreds of people who want to apply for asylum, but, in fact,

:23:55.:24:02.

they can't, because one appointment per week is so little, it is like

:24:02.:24:10.

nothing. In fact, in Greece, it is almost

:24:10.:24:15.

impossible to claim asylum. Here is why. In Athens, every Friday night,

:24:16.:24:21.

a queue of migrants forms. Some of these men have been here since

:24:21.:24:26.

Wednesday. Only at this one place in the city can you actually claim

:24:26.:24:35.

asylum. But the police take only 20 claims a week. The selection

:24:36.:24:38.

process has been described as abitary, the police say it is

:24:38.:24:43.

improved. We were ordered to leave before it took place, and told they

:24:43.:24:51.

would be kept here until we did. With 200 migrants queuing, and 20

:24:51.:24:54.

let in, once per week, that is a one in ten chance. It doesn't stop

:24:54.:24:59.

people coming. We asked to speak to a minister,

:24:59.:25:03.

and to the police spokesperson about the allegations of

:25:03.:25:06.

mistreatment inside the Corinth camp, and about the deficiencies of

:25:06.:25:11.

the system. The Greek Government declined our request.

:25:11.:25:15.

The they directed us to speak to this woman, the head of a new

:25:15.:25:20.

asylum service, a service that as yet has no powers. The experience

:25:20.:25:26.

we have had, following one guy through the asylum system, reveals

:25:26.:25:31.

to us just one fundamental problem, it doesn't work. Do you accept that

:25:31.:25:36.

the present system doesn't work? Let me put it this way, the asylum

:25:36.:25:40.

system in Greece hasn't worked for many years. For a number of

:25:40.:25:44.

different reasons we don't have to go into now. In 2011, the Greek

:25:44.:25:48.

Government was found to have breached the European Convention on

:25:48.:25:51.

Human Rights, over the conditions migrants were being detained in. It

:25:51.:25:55.

pledged to change. It is two years on from the

:25:55.:25:59.

judgment, it is two years on from the action plan, and still we find

:25:59.:26:04.

out in the port we were in, 300, 200 asylum seekers, in the freezing

:26:04.:26:08.

cold, lying on the ground, 20 people only selected. That can't be

:26:08.:26:16.

right. You are not fulfiling their human rights? Well, as I just said

:26:16.:26:19.

this is one of the problems, difficult access to the asylum

:26:19.:26:23.

procedure in Greece, which the new asylum service is supposed to

:26:23.:26:29.

address. We are gearing up for that. We are recruiting many people. We

:26:29.:26:34.

expect to have upwards of 250 new staff members for the asylum

:26:34.:26:38.

service. This is a very big investment, and it is very new.

:26:38.:26:43.

for Mohammed, and men like him, she has this message. They may have to

:26:43.:26:46.

be in an illegal situation for years and years and years, and

:26:46.:26:51.

there is a big price for that. People have to really think and

:26:51.:26:54.

take the right information before they make this sort of decision for

:26:54.:26:59.

their lives. Greece, however, seems to have the illusion, that the

:26:59.:27:03.

harsher they are treated and the more ignored they are, the more

:27:03.:27:08.

likely it was they would stop, that didn't work, did it? That is why

:27:08.:27:11.

things are changing. Mohammed has now moved to this abandoned

:27:11.:27:17.

farmhouse, miles away from Patris, when I meet him he has news. This

:27:17.:27:21.

is my house. After our first interview, he was again detained by

:27:21.:27:27.

the police, he told me the police said his clothes were too new. It

:27:27.:27:31.

was only for one night, but he and his friend do their best to stay

:27:31.:27:37.

out of sight and out of trouble. You are sleeping there? Me and my

:27:38.:27:44.

friend. All four of you sleep here? Why do so many men choose to live

:27:44.:27:49.

in conditions like this, it is just a hard life. Travelling, being

:27:49.:27:56.

lifted by the police, always insecure, why? TRANSLATION: It is

:27:56.:28:00.

because we have an objective, we don't stay here just to kill time.

:28:00.:28:07.

Whether it's here or on the road, our objective is to leave.

:28:07.:28:12.

You just want to go. This is the objective. I want to go.

:28:12.:28:16.

There is no chance that they can stop the flow of migrants into

:28:16.:28:22.

Europe. No. With TRANSLATION: they want Europe. They want to come.

:28:22.:28:28.

It is a hope, it is an objective. For some, Europe is a paradise. You

:28:28.:28:34.

have to reach it. That is one man's story, he told me some of those I

:28:34.:28:39.

met in the factory a year ago have already made it to northern Europe.

:28:39.:28:43.

It is the possibility of getting there that makes men like Mohammed

:28:43.:28:47.

keep on coming. Because, though he's biding his time now, northern

:28:47.:28:53.

Europe is where he intends to finish up.

:28:53.:28:57.

A highly secretive branch of the Chinese military is behind the

:28:57.:28:59.

hacking of information from the computers of organisations around

:28:59.:29:03.

the world. That's the view of Mandiant, an American cybersecurity

:29:03.:29:07.

firm, working for the New York Times, who were themselves hacked.

:29:07.:29:13.

They called the Chinese hackers probably one of the world's most

:29:13.:29:16.

prolific cyberespionage groups. Who exactly are these people, and what

:29:16.:29:23.

are they offer? What did the New York Times reveal?

:29:23.:29:26.

They published details of this report by this company, as you say,

:29:26.:29:31.

a private enterprise company. So far this issue of Chinese cyber-

:29:31.:29:34.

warfare, or intelligence-gathering, has been plaged with claim and

:29:34.:29:38.

counter claim. It has been rather insubstantial, frankly, an awful

:29:38.:29:43.

lot of allegations made. China, of course, denying them, as you would

:29:43.:29:48.

expect. This is homing in, and it shows a way in which, more broadly,

:29:48.:29:51.

this is becoming a much more difficult issue for Governments

:29:51.:29:55.

like the US and UK, we will talk about them in a moment, to handle.

:29:55.:30:00.

What Mandiant did, they tracked 140 cyber-attacks forensically. They

:30:00.:30:05.

got past the normal re-routing and things that hackers do, and tracked

:30:05.:30:11.

them. What did they find. If we look at the map they found that 90%

:30:11.:30:15.

of those 140 attacks that they looked into came from Shanghai. And

:30:15.:30:21.

n fact, when they went right in there to Pudong, the new city part

:30:21.:30:27.

of the financial area of Shanghai, it was a specific area of Pudong,

:30:27.:30:30.

this building, or the area immediately around this building,

:30:30.:30:37.

which is known to house unit 61398, or part of it, which is part of the

:30:37.:30:40.

Chinese military service. Mandiant says that 3,000 different IP

:30:40.:30:45.

addresses can be traced to this building or the very near

:30:45.:30:53.

neighbourhood of this building. Some foot ablg -- footage of it t

:30:53.:30:59.

and the symbol of the people's Chinese state. They are pinpointing

:30:59.:31:03.

the Chinese state in a way we haven't seen before. Does that mean

:31:03.:31:07.

the case is proved against China or not? Of course, China today has

:31:07.:31:10.

denied these new charges, saying they are unprofessional, and it is

:31:10.:31:14.

a frame-up, if you like. But, as far as the US Government is

:31:14.:31:21.

concerned, it does seem to be proven. This is now, of course,

:31:21.:31:24.

generating pressure for action. Questions tonight at the White

:31:24.:31:28.

House, leading the White House spokesman to say they have raised

:31:28.:31:33.

the question repeatedly with the Chinese authorities. Report of s of

:31:33.:31:36.

findings by the President last week to share intelligence about where

:31:36.:31:43.

the Chinese attacks are coming from, not just IP addresses, with

:31:43.:31:45.

internet service providers to protect themselves better against

:31:45.:31:50.

this type of threat. It is crystalising into a more solid

:31:50.:31:53.

issue in relations between China and other states. Where does

:31:53.:31:57.

Britain figure in this? Are we a target, as far as we know? It is

:31:57.:32:01.

definitely the case that the UK is also a target. Once again, there

:32:01.:32:05.

have been these issues. Is this being done by commercial entities

:32:05.:32:09.

in China for commercial gain, in which case that is industrial

:32:09.:32:13.

espionage that is going on for a long time. Or is this directed by

:32:13.:32:18.

elements of the Chinese state, like the cyber-warfare unit they were

:32:18.:32:21.

referring to earlier. There has been some reporting that there is a

:32:21.:32:25.

split in the cabinet between William Hague and Mr Clegg on the

:32:25.:32:32.

one hand, and Mr Cameron and Osbourne on the other hand. The

:32:33.:32:37.

Clegg-William Hague tendency is confront more directly, the others

:32:37.:32:40.

allegedly not. I'm told the issue has been intensively discussed in

:32:40.:32:44.

the cabinet, and one of the key issues is not the vulgar one of

:32:44.:32:48.

what commercial gain would be lost if Britain made more of a fuss. But

:32:48.:32:54.

if we reveal to the Chinese exactly what we know about cyber-attacks,

:32:54.:32:56.

especially in Government organisations, eminating from

:32:56.:33:00.

places like, that will we blow our own defence. That is beginning to

:33:00.:33:03.

field like quite a Cold War argument. The need to protect

:33:03.:33:07.

sources and methods of intelligence, beginning to condition the

:33:07.:33:10.

diplomacy. Before the end of the programme we

:33:10.:33:15.

will have tomorrow morning's front pages. But first, when it comes to

:33:15.:33:19.

winning Nobel Prizes, Britain comes second only to the United States.

:33:19.:33:23.

And yet this country's reputation for genius has often been

:33:23.:33:26.

undermined by the failure to make money from any of these great ideas.

:33:26.:33:30.

As part of the potential solution, today a new Patent Court was set up,

:33:30.:33:35.

working for the whole of the EU, but based in London. One long-time

:33:35.:33:38.

campaigner on the issue is Trevor Baylis, who created the clockwork

:33:38.:33:42.

radio, hailed as one of the top 50 British inventions ever. He would

:33:42.:33:48.

like to see, not just an EU-wide, but a universal patent system. And

:33:48.:33:54.

thinks patent infringement should be a criminal rather than civil

:33:54.:34:01.

crime. Mr Baylis this week revealed that far from being rich, he may

:34:01.:34:11.
:34:11.:34:13.

have to sell up his home in Eel Pie Island,. It is an intention of my

:34:13.:34:17.

electric shoe, when you put your foot down, a little tweak of

:34:17.:34:22.

electricity comes through and is injected into our mobile phone

:34:22.:34:28.

battery, in the side pack. My name is Trevor Baylis, I call

:34:28.:34:32.

myself an inventor. This workshop is where it all began. This is the

:34:32.:34:38.

graveyard of a thousand domestic appliances.

:34:38.:34:43.

I'm known, I guess, for making the clockwork radio. That's how I wound

:34:43.:34:53.

it up. Let's see if it still works? I was watching a programme about

:34:53.:34:57.

the spread of HIV and AIDS in Africa, they said the only way to

:34:57.:35:01.

stop the dreadful disease cutting its way to all those places was

:35:01.:35:05.

through the radio, a means of communication. But there was a

:35:05.:35:09.

problem, most people in Africa didn't have electricity. And the

:35:09.:35:15.

only other form of electricity was in the form of batteries, which

:35:15.:35:18.

were horrendously expensive. I was thinking to myself, hang on, all

:35:18.:35:24.

those years ago I can see myself with an old fashioned gramophone. I

:35:24.:35:28.

thought you wind this thing up, and you can get all that noise by

:35:28.:35:35.

dragging a rusty nail around a piece of old bak-o-lite as it were,

:35:35.:35:39.

and that produces sound. There must be enough energy in the

:35:39.:35:46.

spring to drive the radio, I thought.

:35:46.:35:51.

There is only one arm, there is the bottle, that gois there.

:35:51.:35:58.

Now -- Goes there. Now you can undo the top, or tighten it up. Then it

:35:58.:36:03.

undoes it for you, here we are. Everybody's doing their own version

:36:03.:36:11.

of a wind-up torch, radio, so on. What they do is circumnavigate your

:36:11.:36:15.

invention. Like the handle turns this way, they make it so it goes

:36:15.:36:21.

the other way, it is different to yours. They can play very dodgy

:36:21.:36:26.

manoeuvres in order to claim it to be theirs. Because theirs is

:36:26.:36:30.

subtley different. If I put that on there and point it towards the

:36:30.:36:35.

camera, wherever I take my chariot the sign looks at you. That is

:36:35.:36:39.

Meccano, we are not talking high- tech, high-tech, we are talking low

:36:40.:36:45.

tech, low tech. You only have to look back through time, the United

:36:45.:36:49.

Kingdom, the empire it was. The empire of steam, steam engines and

:36:49.:36:52.

locomotives went all around the world. There are so many things we

:36:52.:36:56.

have created and done over the years. We are great at inventing,

:36:56.:37:01.

but alas now, the people that are supposed to run our innovation

:37:01.:37:08.

units, or look after the inventors treat me, amongst other people,

:37:08.:37:17.

like dirt. In other words, don't invent! Most of us don't have all

:37:17.:37:21.

the skills we need to bring a product to market. You have to

:37:21.:37:26.

appreciate that some people have the most amazing ability to change

:37:26.:37:29.

all our lives socially and commercially. For instance, we have

:37:29.:37:34.

all got paper clips, right. How many of us actually know who made

:37:34.:37:39.

the paper clip? And yet these people that change all our lives,

:37:39.:37:42.

we don't even know who they are. That is disgusting, really. Because

:37:42.:37:46.

we have got to encourage this nation to literally get off its

:37:46.:37:53.

back side and have a gone, and we have to make sure that UK Plc will

:37:53.:37:58.

stand behind the lone inventor. I have no problem with products being

:37:58.:38:02.

made in China, Timbuktu, India, they will make a profit, fine, but

:38:02.:38:07.

the most important thing is the British economy doesn't suffer as a

:38:07.:38:12.

result of it. That the inventor, he or she, are not kicked out of the

:38:12.:38:16.

equation. Now, if we do it that way, and we make the theft of

:38:17.:38:20.

intellectual property a white collar crime, it could be an

:38:20.:38:25.

everybody wins situation. We have to try to get the patent system to

:38:25.:38:29.

be a universal thing. We don't want to go to a country and they say,

:38:29.:38:33.

sorry mate, we don't do it this way. Because there is no point in having

:38:33.:38:40.

a patent office if it is not a universal system. The irrepressible

:38:40.:38:46.

Trevor Baylis there. Nicola Dagg leads the intellectual

:38:46.:38:53.

property practice, and the author of a book about this. How much of a

:38:53.:38:57.

problem is this where inventors and authors feel some of their best

:38:57.:39:01.

stuff is being stolen by people? is an on going problem, to put the

:39:01.:39:06.

other side of the equation, in the UK we have a sophisticated regime

:39:06.:39:10.

for protecting intellectual property. We have a full range of

:39:10.:39:13.

intellectual property rights. Patents are in the news today. They

:39:13.:39:17.

are a very important tool. We have a very sophisticated and highly-

:39:17.:39:22.

regarded patents court, and today we have the news of a new patent

:39:22.:39:27.

regime for Europe that's simpler and more cost effective. Is this

:39:27.:39:31.

something that the big companies can do because they can afford

:39:31.:39:35.

lawyers like yourself? Where as the bloke in the shed can't do it or

:39:35.:39:39.

isn't interested in doing it, so he can't really protect himself?

:39:39.:39:43.

not as black and white as that. At one end of the spectrum we have the

:39:43.:39:48.

big corporates who are very sophisticated consumers and who

:39:48.:39:52.

will need to invest at both protection stage and the

:39:52.:39:57.

enforcement stage to protect the Crown Jewels. But we see different

:39:57.:40:00.

arrays of intellectual property rights being used. At the other end

:40:01.:40:06.

of the spectrum we have design rights, trade mark, copyright, less

:40:06.:40:10.

expensive. So it is a case of the flexibility in the system in terms

:40:10.:40:14.

of the different rights, and going forward the flexibility in the

:40:14.:40:17.

courts system. When you listen to Trevor Baylis, did that seem

:40:17.:40:21.

familiar to you, that people who invent things, perhaps are not the

:40:21.:40:25.

best business people in the world, and perhaps don't feel they get the

:40:25.:40:30.

reward for what they do? Correct, I'm not in my workshop. Lots of

:40:30.:40:36.

people aren't. There is a new breed of entrepeneur, and not really

:40:36.:40:42.

using the word "inventor", more "creative", with two clicks you can

:40:42.:40:46.

find a factory in China to make anything. That is exceptionally

:40:46.:40:51.

exciting and empowering. How do you protect what you have come up with,

:40:51.:40:54.

your great new idea. How do you stop, if you are not a big company,

:40:54.:40:57.

how do you stop other people nicking it? It is tough, and the

:40:57.:41:02.

Government needs to invest more in encouraging people and showing them

:41:02.:41:05.

how to protect things in many different ways, like Nicola said.

:41:05.:41:09.

You don't have to patent something. Actually you can only patent

:41:09.:41:13.

something if it has an inventive step. The ideas I come up with, and

:41:13.:41:19.

many other people who, Susie, the housewife comes up with an idea in

:41:19.:41:23.

the bath, she might not come up with the water engine, but comes up

:41:23.:41:29.

with a great idea of the product. You can patent that and it gives

:41:29.:41:33.

you some degree of protection. about the question of shouldn't it

:41:33.:41:40.

just be EU wide but universal, that would be simpler, that would imply

:41:40.:41:44.

everybody signing up to it, that would be some what tricky I would

:41:44.:41:47.

suspect? There is some appetite for going there. Today we see major

:41:47.:41:53.

advancements in terms of getting a pan-European, a one-stop-shop for

:41:53.:42:00.

patents in Europe. A single and unity patent for Europe, and one

:42:00.:42:04.

court for pat continuitys in Europe. That is major progress. There is

:42:04.:42:08.

international treaties in place, where some things are already

:42:08.:42:11.

harmonised, including an entry point for patent applications, that

:42:11.:42:15.

can grow into a collection of patent rights across the world. It

:42:15.:42:20.

is not ideal, but step by step, at least we are driving it forward in

:42:20.:42:25.

Europe at the moment. Does Britain have an image of itself as a nation

:42:25.:42:29.

of inventors, we like eccentrics and people who come up with whacky

:42:29.:42:32.

things, but we are not particularly good at Monday advertising it, to

:42:32.:42:39.

use that horrible -- monetising it, to use that horrible word, making

:42:39.:42:43.

cash out of it? I would rather go away from someone tinkering in the

:42:43.:42:47.

shed, to someone in the pub who comes up with a great idea for a

:42:47.:42:51.

greeting card, or a new novelty product, and then find an expert

:42:51.:42:57.

with just a couple of clicks. That's really fantastic and easy to

:42:57.:43:00.

do. You don't have to be an engineer to do that, because you

:43:00.:43:04.

can find someone to help you very easily. But that's true, you don't

:43:04.:43:08.

have to be an engineer to do that. But many of these inventions,

:43:08.:43:12.

Trevor Baylis was talking about if you just make a slight modification

:43:12.:43:17.

then the patent, perhaps, may no longer apply. In other words you

:43:17.:43:22.

lose most of what you have thought of, your originality? Yes, you have

:43:22.:43:27.

to be very careful about going into that whole process, it is expensive

:43:27.:43:33.

and lengthy. If you are a big form suit kal company, then I see a --

:43:33.:43:38.

pharmaceutical company, I see a reason to protect your drug. I

:43:38.:43:42.

don't relate to that, I relate to somebody in their flat thinking up

:43:42.:43:45.

a concept. I would say to them, don't be scared about protecting

:43:46.:43:50.

your idea, do it best, do it fast, do it now, and do it well. That

:43:50.:43:55.

will give you some degree of protection. You suggested, you seem

:43:55.:44:00.

to be optimistic that this would get better. But bringing in a new

:44:00.:44:03.

Europe-wide system, there will be a lot of bumps over the next few

:44:03.:44:10.

years? That is fair. I think we will see the benefit of the system

:44:10.:44:15.

once it is bedded down. Once we see a set of high-quality judges in

:44:15.:44:20.

place and we can begin to predict their decisions, we get more legal

:44:20.:44:23.

certainty. Once we see the decisions being upheld, and the

:44:23.:44:26.

users of the court system become familiar with it. A bumpy ride to

:44:27.:44:30.

start, but the structure is there. Thank you very much.

:44:30.:44:40.
:44:40.:44:40.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 50 seconds

:44:40.:45:30.

A quick look at tomorrow morning's That's all for tonight, I will be

:45:30.:45:36.

back with more tomorrow. We wanted to leave you with the news that

:45:36.:45:40.

Derek Beattie, the host of Mr and Mrs has died. A little bit of TV

:45:41.:45:43.

history. # Things of the future

:45:44.:45:51.

# And all you are hoping for # Be nice to each other

:45:51.:45:58.

# Mr and Mrs # Sharing each day forever more

:45:58.:46:08.
:46:08.:46:14.

Good evening. Changes are afoot, tonight most of you go from clear

:46:14.:46:18.

to cloudy, a greyer start to tomorrow. Best of the sunshine in

:46:18.:46:24.

the west, but a widespread frost and dense fog to begin with. Patchy

:46:24.:46:28.

light rain, sleet, icey for a time across the Pennines and the

:46:28.:46:32.

mountains of Scotland. Conditions will brighten up, especially to the

:46:32.:46:37.

Pennines in the afternoon. A little bit of sunshine can'ting ruled out.

:46:37.:46:42.

Breaks in the sunshine in the east. The wind picking up as well. It

:46:42.:46:46.

will feel significantly colder A lovely bright start across Devon,

:46:46.:46:51.

Cornwall and west Wales. Clouding over here. Spots of light rain and

:46:51.:46:54.

sleet over the hills not completely ruled out. The breeze picking up so

:46:55.:47:00.

the temperatures will drop. For Northern Ireland the sunny

:47:00.:47:03.

conditions in the west throughout. Same too in the northern and

:47:03.:47:06.

western parts of Scotland. Essentially much more cloud through

:47:07.:47:11.

today and colder. The colder feel will continue into Thursday. Look

:47:11.:47:14.

how the temperatures continue to drop day on day. Cloud amounts will

:47:15.:47:17.

vary. Best of the sunshine probably in the west. A lot more cloud to

:47:17.:47:20.

the east. From that as well you will notice into Thursday we will

:47:20.:47:24.

start to see a few light snow flurries here and there. They will

:47:24.:47:28.