21/02/2013 Newsnight


21/02/2013

How a planned terror attack in Britain was foiled, the return of Berlusconi, the Pistorious trial gets stranger, and women as engineers. With Gavin Esler.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 21/02/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

$:/STARTFEED. Born in Britain, educated in Britain, yet they hated

:00:12.:00:19.

this country so much they wanted another 9/11 of terror and murder.

:00:19.:00:26.

The three key players in a terrorist bomb plot made in

:00:26.:00:29.

Birmingham face life imprisonment. Have the security forces turned a

:00:29.:00:33.

corner in the fight against extremism. We will hear from the

:00:33.:00:35.

experts about the battle on home- grown terror.

:00:35.:00:40.

Most of Europe think he's a clown, a crook or a dirty old geezer, or

:00:40.:00:45.

all of the above. As he plans yet another comeback, what is Italy's

:00:45.:00:48.

strange love affair with Silvio Berlusconi.

:00:48.:00:54.

They are fascinated, they love him, they laugh. They cannot really,

:00:54.:00:58.

they should be angry with him, because actually he destroyed our

:00:58.:01:02.

country. Oscar Pistorius is in the dock, but now it is the prosecution

:01:02.:01:06.

that is on trial. South Africa's extraordinary murder case gets even

:01:06.:01:09.

more bizarre. And, what does it take to get a

:01:09.:01:13.

bright young woman to become an engineering. Has the profession got

:01:13.:01:20.

an image problem? Your typical man in their overalls coming to fix a

:01:20.:01:26.

washing machine and asking for a cup of tea.

:01:26.:01:31.

Good evening, MI5 and West Midlands Police have broken apart a

:01:31.:01:34.

terrorist plot so serious in its ambition, that hundreds of innocent

:01:34.:01:37.

British people could have died. Part of the plan was to detonate

:01:37.:01:45.

bombs in crowded areas, and attack the plotters in way that would be

:01:45.:01:53.

far greater than the London 7th of July bombings, which claimed 52

:01:53.:01:56.

lives. We hear of the change in counter

:01:56.:02:00.

terrorism strategy that may have helped disrupt the plot. First, the

:02:00.:02:03.

plotters themselves, fanatical in their aims, but at times

:02:03.:02:08.

incompetent in their abilities. It was the day that 52 innocent

:02:08.:02:15.

commuters lost their lives to the bombs of radical Islamists. For

:02:15.:02:18.

these three man, Irfan Khalid, Irfan Naseer and Ashik Ali,

:02:19.:02:22.

convicted today of 12 counts of preparing acts of terrorism, the

:02:22.:02:27.

events of the 7th July 2005 were, in fact, a disappointment. Terror

:02:27.:02:32.

on too small a scale. From their own words, they were quite critical

:02:32.:02:35.

of the 7/7 bombers and the fact they didn't kill enough people.

:02:35.:02:40.

They wanted this to be their 9/11. The evidence retrieved from the

:02:40.:02:43.

plotters safe house demonstrates their deadly intent. Including

:02:43.:02:48.

setting off up to eight bombs in rucksacks and possibly other bombs

:02:48.:02:54.

on timers. They also posed as street collectors for the charity

:02:54.:03:00.

Muslim Aid. So fraudulently raise �13,500. But a series of hair

:03:00.:03:07.

brained plots, and the loss of �9,000 of their funds trading on-

:03:07.:03:11.

line, led Ashik Ali, one of the convicted men, to remark to his

:03:11.:03:17.

estranged life, "you think this is a flipping Four Lions, we are one

:03:17.:03:24.

man short". It is very simple, you eat your SIM card. The Lions film

:03:25.:03:28.

tells of incompetent terrorist wannabes, but the reference

:03:28.:03:32.

underestimates the gang's fanatical desire to murder and maime. None of

:03:32.:03:36.

this detracts from a number of realities. They were able to go

:03:36.:03:41.

abroad and connect with Al-Qaeda, and record video, receive some form

:03:41.:03:45.

of training, which they then came back to the UK to put into play.

:03:45.:03:50.

All these things have very serious. That they did things on the side

:03:50.:03:54.

that were typically clownish and with a fine fine-element, are par

:03:54.:03:57.

for the course for these sorts of plots. The trial is a reminder that

:03:57.:04:02.

British cities like Birmingham have a disaffected few who could present

:04:02.:04:05.

a radical threat and terrorist danger in the future. Birmingham

:04:05.:04:10.

broadly needs to take seriously the threat that emerges from

:04:10.:04:15.

radicalised young men. I'm really comfortable that I stand shoulder-

:04:15.:04:19.

to-shoulder with key political leaders of Birmingham City council,

:04:19.:04:23.

we are working over the long-term to stop today's ten-year-olds being

:04:23.:04:28.

tomorrow's residents of Belmarsh or other high-security prisons. With

:04:28.:04:32.

growing instability in the Middle East and North Africa, some experts

:04:32.:04:36.

are concerned that a new front in the radicalisation of young British

:04:36.:04:41.

Muslims is about to be opened. Syria is, I think, the case which

:04:41.:04:45.

has the potential to have most direct implications in the UK at

:04:45.:04:49.

the moment. Because there is a body of young British Muslims who are

:04:49.:04:54.

being radicalised here in the UK who are electing to go over there

:04:54.:04:59.

and join with groups that are fighting the Assad regime, some of

:04:59.:05:04.

whom are secular, some are not. Some have connections with Al-Qaeda

:05:04.:05:07.

in Iraq. From a security perspective, this presents a

:05:07.:05:10.

dangerous problem. Last summer's Olympics presented the Security

:05:10.:05:14.

Services with their biggest-ever challenge. In part, thanks to an

:05:14.:05:19.

emergency deployment of troops and the positioning, alarming to some,

:05:19.:05:22.

of surface-to-air missiles on the top of a local tower block, the

:05:22.:05:27.

event went off without incident. This, combined with today's

:05:27.:05:31.

successful prosecutions, gives the impression of a threat that's under

:05:31.:05:36.

control.P even if that is true, -- even if that is true, the threat,

:05:36.:05:39.

does indeed remain. For some perspective on the

:05:39.:05:44.

significance of the case I'm joined by Huband, who has published a book

:05:44.:05:48.

on the fight against terrorism by terrorist agencies. First Richard

:05:48.:05:52.

Watson, I suppose MI5 and counter terrorism police officers must be

:05:52.:05:55.

pleased with how this has turned out? I think absolutely, this is a

:05:55.:06:00.

big success for the police and MI5. If you look back we haven't had a

:06:00.:06:06.

successful attack on the UK since 2050 now, 7/7, which claimed so

:06:06.:06:11.

many lives. That has to be put in the context of probably one

:06:11.:06:15.

credible attack plan per year since 2001. Every single year, that is

:06:15.:06:21.

what sources are telling me at the Security Service. So, clearly, many,

:06:21.:06:25.

many plots have been thwarted. Largely, this is down to the fact n

:06:26.:06:30.

my view, that MI5 has a closer understanding now of the extremist

:06:30.:06:33.

networks. They can penetrate those networks and put them under

:06:33.:06:37.

surveillance in a much more efficient fashion. Undoubtedly it

:06:37.:06:40.

has been a big success for the Security Service. As you know, the

:06:40.:06:45.

IRA used to say they only have to be lucky once, you have to be lucky,

:06:45.:06:50.

meaning the Security Services, every time. What keeps these people

:06:50.:06:54.

awake at night worrying about future threats? They won't be

:06:54.:06:57.

complacent about this. Even though their penetration and understanding

:06:57.:07:00.

of the networks is a lot greater today than it was in 2003, when the

:07:00.:07:04.

actual knowledge was very, very poor. It is not impossible that

:07:04.:07:08.

there will be a clean skin coming through, or an attack not on the

:07:08.:07:13.

radar. An attack is still possible. One sourced said to me today, it is

:07:13.:07:16.

a kind of stalemate here. We have a situation where the Security

:07:16.:07:20.

Service and the police are penetrating and monitoring plots

:07:20.:07:25.

that are far earlier in their stage, but the aspiration from the

:07:25.:07:28.

extremists is still there to actually carry out these plots.

:07:28.:07:32.

Also, I think, we have to look at the wider picture here. A few years

:07:32.:07:38.

ago, 90% of MI5's resources were tide up with Pakistan. I'm told by

:07:38.:07:42.

sources that today that figure is close to 50%. So a marked

:07:42.:07:48.

difference. Largely because the drone attacks in Pakistan and

:07:48.:07:53.

Afghanistan tribunal areas. That is having a very -- tribal areas. That

:07:53.:07:57.

is having a very significant effect. What is keeping the Security

:07:57.:08:00.

Services awake at night is the changing nature of the threat. It

:08:00.:08:07.

is shifting away from Pakistan and Afghanistan towards North Africa,

:08:07.:08:10.

the mabgreb, Somalia and Syria. That changing nature of the threat

:08:10.:08:14.

is very significant, I'm told that between 50-80 British nationals

:08:14.:08:19.

have travelled to Syria to join the insurgents. The key issue for the

:08:19.:08:23.

Security Services is, what happens when they come back to the UK as

:08:23.:08:27.

British citizens. They will be battle-trained, and that means they

:08:27.:08:32.

present a far greater danger in the future. Beginning with the Security

:08:32.:08:35.

Service and counter terrorism just to kick off with. How much better

:08:35.:08:42.

are they at it now, how much more focused and how has that changed

:08:42.:08:45.

since 2005? I think a lot better. They would be the first to

:08:45.:08:52.

acknowledge that they had huge problems prior to the July 7th

:08:52.:08:57.

bombings in 2005. They were, frankly, playing catch-up. They

:08:57.:09:00.

were in a position where they didn't know what kind of threat

:09:00.:09:05.

they were facing. They were in a position where the process of

:09:05.:09:09.

infiltrating potential plots had proved pretty much impossible. They

:09:09.:09:12.

were also in a position where, in the global scheme of things, they

:09:12.:09:17.

were still fighting alongside the United States in the global war on

:09:17.:09:21.

terror. Only when they were very -- there were very major changes to

:09:21.:09:24.

all these different aspects did they start to be effective. The

:09:24.:09:28.

first thing was to say to the Americans we can't fight a global

:09:28.:09:31.

war on terror with you any more because we have a big problem at

:09:31.:09:37.

home and we need to be dealing with that. The steps that followed,

:09:37.:09:42.

certainly before the July bombings in 2050, which were certainly

:09:42.:09:46.

accelerated after that, involved in particular MI5 creating regional

:09:46.:09:50.

offices in different parts of the UK. Which brought them, as Richard

:09:50.:09:53.

has just said, very much closer to the ground level. So in Birmingham,

:09:53.:10:01.

in this case, and other places. The real shock to most people is

:10:01.:10:05.

this is home-grown, British people, British educated, brought up in

:10:05.:10:08.

Britain. They go to Pakistan for training some of them, but they

:10:08.:10:11.

come back here and try to do something terrible here. Where is

:10:11.:10:15.

the source of this hatred of what this country stands for. What is

:10:15.:10:19.

being done to counter that? I think there are certainly different

:10:19.:10:23.

aspects. Certainly the profiling of the terrorist is something that has

:10:23.:10:27.

been done a great deal over a long period of time. Certainly since

:10:27.:10:31.

9/11, trying to work out what is it that radicalises an individual,

:10:31.:10:36.

trying to work out what radicalises one individual but not another,

:10:36.:10:39.

even if they have been to school together and in the same community.

:10:39.:10:42.

Personality play as role, individual responses play a role.

:10:42.:10:45.

Whether it is the case that somebody from a broken home, or who

:10:45.:10:49.

has been unemployed for a long time, within that community, is more

:10:49.:10:53.

likely to be radicalised than somebody else. Remains, frankly

:10:53.:10:57.

pretty uncertain. It is not the case that there is one profile. I

:10:57.:11:04.

think that it is the issue of hatred the issue of personality, it

:11:04.:11:08.

is very much a personal thing as social and community based. What

:11:08.:11:12.

about the nature of the plot. It would have been devastating if some

:11:12.:11:16.

of this had happened. On the fringes of it there were thoughts

:11:16.:11:21.

of putting poisonous hand cream on things so people would die. Or

:11:21.:11:25.

getting a car or truck driving into a crowd in such a way to injure

:11:25.:11:32.

them. It is very evil but it also sounds strange? The logistics of

:11:32.:11:38.

the whole thing. The hand cream is resonant of the Ricin plot, a you

:11:38.:11:43.

foo years ago, it was thought this -- a few years ago, it was thought

:11:43.:11:46.

this poison that was developed in a flat in North London, it was

:11:46.:11:49.

thought it would be distribute bid putting it into cream and then

:11:49.:11:52.

smeared on the bannisters of underground stations and all sorts

:11:52.:11:57.

of other things. The issues with regard to how to carry out the

:11:57.:12:00.

attack have not become particularly sophisticated. Clearly it was

:12:00.:12:05.

rucksacks and so on, which were also being considered. Just a final

:12:05.:12:08.

thought, what more do you think needs to be done in terms of the

:12:08.:12:12.

kind of threat Richard was talking about. It is changing all the time.

:12:12.:12:15.

It mutates, different language, different ethnic groups, different

:12:15.:12:20.

groups of people who seem to be involved? Clearly the process of

:12:20.:12:25.

surveillance, identifying individuals, essentially very

:12:25.:12:30.

important and keeping the community and the Muslim community on side.

:12:30.:12:32.

Encouraging people in the Muslim community to talk to the

:12:32.:12:36.

authorities and the police about what is taking place within their

:12:36.:12:40.

own communities is absolutely essential. In a way it is more of

:12:40.:12:43.

the same. This is clearly what has happened today. It is a great

:12:43.:12:48.

success in many ways. Clearly a plot was thwarted, but the evidence

:12:48.:12:52.

gathered was also credible as evidence. So these people have gone

:12:52.:12:55.

to jail as a result. There are some pretty important steps that have

:12:55.:13:02.

been taken. In a moment, the latest

:13:02.:13:05.

extraordinary twists in the Oscar Pistorius trial. The prosecution

:13:06.:13:12.

becomes the accused. Now, here's a bit of a puzzle,

:13:12.:13:15.

Silvio Berlusconi. All across Europe the former Italian Prime

:13:15.:13:21.

Minister is regarded as a music hall joke. In Italy he's loathed by

:13:21.:13:25.

millions, but many regard him as a Lost Prince, the saviour who can

:13:25.:13:29.

redeem their country from the awful ordinary politicians. Since

:13:29.:13:32.

Berlusconi has more comebacks since Frank Sinatra and is planning

:13:32.:13:35.

another in elections this weekend, we wanted to try to explain his

:13:35.:13:45.
:13:45.:13:46.

appeal. If that is the right word. The man of a smile and a tan, that

:13:46.:13:56.
:13:56.:13:57.

never seemed to fade. Silvio Berlusconi has a lot to grin about.

:13:57.:14:02.

His billion-dollar business emmire, decade-younger fiance, and Phoenix

:14:02.:14:12.
:14:12.:14:14.

from the ashes return to politics in Italy's election campaign.

:14:14.:14:18.

Despite 20 years of financial, sexual and political scandals,

:14:18.:14:22.

millions of Italians say they will vote for Silvio Berlusconi now, as

:14:22.:14:30.

before. Why? Outside Italy this is what we think of when we hear the

:14:30.:14:36.

name "Silvio Berlusconi", luxury, flashy villas, this one known for

:14:36.:14:39.

hosting his bunga-bunga parties, accompanied by other ageing

:14:39.:14:43.

influential men. Cavorting with scores of scantily dressed young

:14:43.:14:48.

women. We think of the famous gaffes, such as praising Mussolini

:14:48.:14:51.

on Holocaust memorial day. But there is a large part of the

:14:51.:14:58.

Italian electorate that has a very different image of the man.

:14:58.:15:04.

This is where Silvio Berlusconi was born. Milan, where Italy's business

:15:04.:15:08.

heart beats. And where he made his fortune in property, football and

:15:08.:15:16.

media. It's also a key battleground in this weekend's election. Back in

:15:16.:15:19.

1994, when Silvio Berlusconi entered the world of politics, he

:15:19.:15:24.

promised to share his recipe of glitz, glamour and success, with

:15:24.:15:31.

the rest of Italy. But the party here is very much over. The

:15:31.:15:36.

eurozone's third-largest economy is in serious trouble. Mr Berlusconi

:15:36.:15:39.

was uncermoniously booted from Government 18 months ago. His

:15:39.:15:44.

political career apparent low in tatters. Now he's campaigning for -

:15:44.:15:48.

- apparently in tatters. Now he's campaigning for a comeback.

:15:48.:15:52.

Promising a fairytale ending for Italian families. People here are

:15:52.:15:58.

listening. So how has he managed this remarkable resurrection from

:15:58.:16:02.

the political dead? In the heart of many Italians Berlusconi will never

:16:02.:16:11.

die. He's really like Mr Peron in Argentina. The nature of the

:16:11.:16:14.

relations between Berlusconi and his voters is not rational, it is

:16:14.:16:21.

an emotional relationship. How? the sense that he's a sort of

:16:21.:16:26.

Emperor. He's a sort of king. We are looking for a king. We were not

:16:26.:16:30.

a democracy in the MoD he were sense of the determine, we are

:16:30.:16:38.

inbetween, in the middle between a modern democracy and a more ancient

:16:38.:16:47.

political form. In previous elections Silvio

:16:47.:16:51.

Berlusconi relied pretty heavily on the cult of Berlusconi. Just look

:16:51.:16:57.

at the video from his 2008 campaign for re-election. With this

:16:57.:17:07.
:17:07.:17:09.

insistent refrain, "thank goodness for Silvio"!

:17:09.:17:13.

But now, possibly a little chastened by being ousted mid-term

:17:13.:17:16.

from Government, and by the growing public distaste for his private

:17:16.:17:21.

conduct, Mr Berlusconi is pushing his economic message rather more.

:17:21.:17:27.

His flamboyant image a little less. Silvio Berlusconi knows the economy

:17:27.:17:32.

is on all Italians' minds. Living costs here are some of the highest

:17:32.:17:37.

in Europe. So are the levels of tax evasion, by the way. Lost tax

:17:37.:17:45.

revenues in Italy are thought to be equivalent to 18% of GDP. Bergamo,

:17:45.:17:51.

like Milan, is part of the northern Lombardy region. People are still

:17:51.:17:54.

relatively well-off, compared to the mystery in Italy's south. But

:17:54.:17:59.

the bitter chill of economic hardship bites here too.

:18:00.:18:03.

TRANSLATION: I would love to see Berlusconi live on the wage of the

:18:03.:18:12.

average Italian, he has noed idea. He wouldn't last an hour-and-a-half.

:18:12.:18:16.

TRANSLATION: I hope he can keep to his programme to create jobs,

:18:16.:18:19.

remove the taxes introduced recently and pay back the money we

:18:19.:18:28.

have already paid out. Berlusconi? TRANSLATION: Berlusconi is a great

:18:28.:18:31.

businessman. He has built a media empire. If he wins the election I

:18:31.:18:41.
:18:41.:18:43.

hope he will do for Italy what he has done for himself. But Silvio

:18:43.:18:48.

Berlusconi has already been Prime Minister three times. While his own

:18:48.:18:55.

fortunes prospered, Italy's economy nose-dived. Critics say he turned a

:18:55.:19:01.

blind eye to the structural reforms Italy so needs. You won't notice it

:19:01.:19:06.

when walking down Rome's splendid streets, but protectionism,

:19:06.:19:10.

corruption and red tape mean it is tough to do business here. Worse in

:19:10.:19:15.

Italy, according to the World Bank, than in Belarus and Monday goalia.

:19:15.:19:19.

But a growing number of -- Mongolia. But a growing number of Italians

:19:19.:19:23.

blame the euro for their pain, rather than Silvio Berlusconi. Ever

:19:23.:19:27.

the populist, Berlusconi has added a sharp euro-sceptic tone to his

:19:27.:19:35.

campaign. And this is his favourite pulpit, the television studio. Mr

:19:35.:19:40.

Berlusconi knows 80% of Italians get their news and information from

:19:40.:19:44.

television. He owns three of Italy's biggest TV channels. In the

:19:44.:19:48.

lead up to this election he has appeared almost daily on all the

:19:48.:19:53.

others. TV presenter, Giovanni Floris, is a household name in

:19:53.:20:03.
:20:03.:20:03.

Italy, he says Berlusconi is the master of the medium. TRANSLATION:

:20:03.:20:06.

He bases a significant part of his power on his ability on television.

:20:06.:20:10.

Of course it has helped him a lot that half of the television

:20:10.:20:13.

stations long to him, and he has influence over the other half. He

:20:13.:20:18.

uses the media to speak with his many people as possible. His

:20:18.:20:22.

strongest talent is making Italians believe he has understood their

:20:22.:20:25.

problems. When he talks about returning what they have paid in

:20:25.:20:29.

property tax. As a journalist you want to bring him back to reality,

:20:29.:20:34.

but his skill lies in peddling dreams as reality.

:20:34.:20:39.

Silvio Berlusconi's opponents say his agenda is more insidious. They

:20:39.:20:43.

accuse him of using his media influence to silence critics and of

:20:43.:20:47.

being in politics primarily to keep himself out of jail. Mr Berlusconi

:20:47.:20:51.

says he's innocent. But over the years his legal woes have been

:20:51.:20:59.

considerable. This is a political satirist, her

:20:59.:21:05.

scathing sketches have often been censored in Italy. After 20 years

:21:05.:21:09.

of Berlusconi we don't have culture any more, we don't have a sense of

:21:09.:21:13.

freedom any more. Sabina Guzzanti is just finishing a film about

:21:13.:21:18.

corruption, nothing new in Italy. But she blames Silvio Berlusconi

:21:18.:21:25.

for lowering the moral tone of her country. When you live in a big

:21:25.:21:32.

mess with this big scandal every day, ever day, involving everyone,

:21:32.:21:38.

every level of institutions, people get used to this. There is no wrong

:21:38.:21:44.

and right any more. In this election period, even the people

:21:44.:21:48.

supposed to hate them they are fascinated. They love him, they

:21:48.:21:54.

laugh. They cannot really, they should be angry with him, because

:21:54.:21:59.

actually he destroyed our country and our culture, he destroyed every

:21:59.:22:03.

bit of dignity we used to have. But they don't.

:22:03.:22:08.

Perhaps so many Italians have had that reaction to Silvio Berlusconi

:22:08.:22:10.

because they are deeply disillusioned with politics in

:22:10.:22:20.

general. It is carnival time in Viareggio, Tuscany. Even here

:22:20.:22:25.

Italian leaders are derided. They are mocked as infantile, accused of

:22:25.:22:31.

leading the country a merry dance and of emptying ittal y'allian

:22:31.:22:35.

profits while they enrich themselves with kickbacks. Aside

:22:35.:22:38.

from their politicians, many Italians have little faith in their

:22:38.:22:43.

political system. It was put in place after Mussolini to make sure

:22:43.:22:47.

no-one person or party could turn Italy into a dictatorship. Good in

:22:47.:22:51.

theory, in practice it means no Italian Prime Minister has the

:22:51.:22:57.

clout to deliver tough political reforms. It has given birth to a

:22:57.:23:00.

culture of arragiarsi, finding your way around the system. Silvio

:23:00.:23:08.

Berlusconi is a master at that, and many here admire him for it.

:23:08.:23:13.

Deborah Bergamini is an MP for Berlusconi's People of Freedom

:23:13.:23:18.

Party, and a close all lie. She says non-Italians are unjustly

:23:18.:23:22.

dismissive of Silvio Berlusconi and his supporters. To the truth you

:23:22.:23:28.

should be Italian. You should live in this country which are the main

:23:28.:23:31.

problems. The media circles have decided that Berlusconi is not

:23:31.:23:35.

acceptable. The other option is you believe that Italians are all

:23:35.:23:43.

stupid. The allegation is he wants political power just for his own

:23:43.:23:49.

self-interest? My experience of the man is if he had looked at his own

:23:49.:23:52.

personal interest he would have been far, far away from politics.

:23:52.:23:55.

That is exactly the contrary of what he decided to do. Wouldn't he

:23:56.:24:02.

have been in jail if he hadn't been in politics? In jail, no way. All

:24:02.:24:07.

the rest about personal interests in politics, again, I have seen the

:24:07.:24:16.

country. I have seen that he's been profoundly hurt by his decision of

:24:16.:24:19.

getting into politics, open face. You can do politics in two

:24:19.:24:27.

different ways. You can put your face on and, how do you say, work

:24:27.:24:32.

openly and clearly, and make your proposition to the country. As you

:24:32.:24:37.

are, or you can do politics in a second line, hidden. That is

:24:37.:24:41.

something that is quite common in Italy. I very much appreciate the

:24:41.:24:46.

fact that he's been very open since the very beginning.

:24:46.:24:51.

Mr Berlusconi is unlikely to win these elections. But this is just

:24:52.:24:55.

another chapter in the long relationship between Silvio

:24:55.:24:59.

Berlusconi and the Italian people. Following the vote, he will remain

:25:00.:25:03.

a strong presence in the Italian parliament, on Italian television

:25:03.:25:12.

and on the streets of Italy. The world knows that Oscar Pistorius is

:25:12.:25:16.

on trial for murder, but today we found out that so is the lead

:25:16.:25:20.

detective in the case, Hilton Botha. Who has been central to the

:25:20.:25:24.

prosecution. Now Detective Botha has been suspended while he fights

:25:24.:25:28.

his own murder charge. After allegedly firing on a mini-bus

:25:28.:25:32.

containing seven people. All this comes as he's also accused of

:25:33.:25:36.

contaminating the crime scene, getting evidence out of witness

:25:36.:25:41.

wrongly, and generally being out of his depth, in the most high-profile

:25:41.:25:45.

case in South Africa for years. Day three of the Oscar Pistorius bail

:25:45.:25:50.

hearing. It has begun to look more like a full trial, and a media

:25:50.:25:54.

circus that has enthralled South Africa and the world. Today's twist

:25:54.:26:00.

being that Detective Hilton Botha, who until now led the inquiry, has

:26:00.:26:06.

been replaced. It became known that he himself is facing seven charges

:26:06.:26:09.

of attempted murder, for apparently opening fire on a mini-bus full of

:26:09.:26:13.

passengers last year. Charges against him have been dropped and

:26:13.:26:16.

reinstated. The police urgently tried to rescue the situation.

:26:16.:26:23.

Today I have come to report to you that the leader of the team is the

:26:23.:26:33.

top detective in Subs. That is Lieutenant General Moonoo. He heads

:26:33.:26:38.

the portfolio. I have also said to you that he will be collaborating

:26:38.:26:45.

with the Head of Police, the provincial commissioner to ensure

:26:45.:26:50.

that they put together a team that is formidable to do this job.

:26:50.:26:55.

it is a development that naturally raises concerns about South African

:26:55.:27:01.

justice. Certainly to be caught in a situation, the prosecutor himself,

:27:01.:27:05.

or the investigating officer himself is facing murder charges is

:27:05.:27:12.

most undesirable. Clearly that shows a malfunctioning in the

:27:12.:27:20.

justice system. This is the latest setback for a prosecution team that

:27:20.:27:25.

seems increasingly in disarray. The prosecution accused Pistorius of

:27:25.:27:28.

pre-meditated murder. He said he fired because he thought there was

:27:28.:27:36.

Anne truder. The now replaced -- an intrude ear, the now replacement

:27:37.:27:40.

for Botha. He had amended his testimony after the defence argued

:27:40.:27:44.

the witnesses he took evidence from were too far away. The prosecution

:27:44.:27:48.

say the police lost track of ambition found in the house. He was

:27:48.:27:53.

also accused of not wearing protective clothing on the crime

:27:53.:27:57.

scene. It is argued that South African police have problems.

:27:57.:28:02.

detectives are facing huge caseloads, it is not uncommon for a

:28:02.:28:07.

detective for carry between 50-100 case dockets at one time. They

:28:07.:28:12.

don't have the facilities needed for their job. They share cars,

:28:12.:28:17.

many are not computer literate. They wait for a long time to get

:28:17.:28:19.

any evidence into the forensic laboratories and back.

:28:19.:28:23.

Pistorius case has been played out in very great detail in the South

:28:23.:28:26.

African press, and on Twitter and other social media sites. With

:28:26.:28:29.

parts of the media initially suggesting he must be guilty.

:28:29.:28:33.

Leading to claims that evidence has been leaked and his right to a fair

:28:33.:28:37.

trial had been undermined. I do worry that there was a rush to

:28:37.:28:42.

convict him. In the public arena and the media in particular in the

:28:42.:28:45.

last few days. You know, when he came to present his case in court,

:28:45.:28:52.

in the last day or two, it became clearer than his guilt was not that

:28:52.:28:58.

clear. That it was at least disputed. So I do think that in

:28:58.:29:04.

terms of assuming his innocence until proven guilty there has been

:29:04.:29:09.

some prejudicial coverage. Britain the press would be accused

:29:09.:29:15.

of breaking sududecy rules, why not in South African? For one thing

:29:15.:29:19.

there is no jury system in the country. It was abolished in 1969

:29:19.:29:22.

in the apartheid era. It is argued that judges are less likely than

:29:22.:29:26.

juries to be influenced by what they read in the press. There was a

:29:26.:29:32.

further change in 2007, with the supreme Court of Appeal decision

:29:32.:29:36.

that the right to a fair trial had to be weighed against the right of

:29:36.:29:39.

freedom against expression. means thaw don't have people not

:29:39.:29:43.

trained in law looking at the evidence. Our judges generally will

:29:43.:29:47.

only make decisions based on the evidence before them, and the facts

:29:47.:29:51.

that are presented before them and the law and the precedent that the

:29:51.:29:55.

law interprets that evidence. Of course there are mistakes, we do

:29:55.:30:01.

have problems now and then. These are usually picked up in appeals in

:30:01.:30:05.

the higher courts. Today was good news for Oscar Pistorius and his

:30:05.:30:10.

legal team. After the initial media conslaught, they may feel events

:30:10.:30:15.

are moving their way. And it is argued he may have advantages not

:30:15.:30:18.

enjoyed by other South Africans on murder charges. The conditions on

:30:18.:30:22.

which remand prisoners are awaiting trial if they don't get bail are

:30:22.:30:26.

truly appalling. We have serious overcrowding in our remand prisons.

:30:26.:30:31.

So with Oscar Pistorius, because of his particular conditions and his

:30:31.:30:34.

wealth, you will see the best of the system there. For many other

:30:34.:30:42.

South Africans it is a much, much harsher system. The Oscar Pistorius

:30:42.:30:48.

bail hearing continues tomorrow. For some expert thoughts on how the

:30:48.:30:53.

South African legal process is doing, I'm joined from Cape Town by

:30:53.:30:59.

William King a senior advocate at the Cape Bar, the equivalent of a

:30:59.:31:04.

queens counsel in England. How do you make of the prosecution's

:31:04.:31:10.

handling of this so far, including the lead detective, Hilton Botha?

:31:10.:31:14.

Very unfortunate is the immediate thought. No system of justice could

:31:14.:31:20.

properly deal with something of that magnitude happening to it. The

:31:21.:31:26.

police investigation also. We are not familiar with your system, it

:31:26.:31:30.

does looks a if the prosecution is rushing into this, unprepared. Even

:31:30.:31:40.
:31:40.:31:42.

though this is a bail hearing. It looks to us a bit like a full trial.

:31:42.:31:50.

Unfortunately it is, because of the Owen news on -- the onus on the

:31:50.:32:00.
:32:00.:32:01.

defence to prove certain facts that will allow him to come out of jail.

:32:01.:32:05.

Those circumstances are exceptionally difficult to prove.

:32:05.:32:10.

That necessitates a hearing to show those exceptional circumstances.

:32:10.:32:15.

Oscar Pistorius has tried to show that the state case is weak. He

:32:15.:32:19.

will in all likelihood, in due course, be acquitted or found

:32:19.:32:24.

guilty of a lesser offence. That would justify him being released on

:32:24.:32:29.

bail. I just wondered under South African law, how bad it looks for

:32:29.:32:32.

Mr Pistorius. That he shot through a door with someone at the other

:32:32.:32:42.

side in his own home? The defence would be one of self-defence, I

:32:42.:32:45.

would think. Oscar Pistorius would claim there was an open window. One

:32:45.:32:48.

had claimed through, locked themselves, or hidden in the

:32:48.:32:53.

bathroom, with the intention of attacking him. Unfortunately in

:32:53.:33:00.

South Africa, we have this crime wave. We have people that are

:33:00.:33:04.

getting in and attacking others, and criminals are the order of the

:33:04.:33:11.

day in every day life. So people are paranoid. They take, like Oscar

:33:11.:33:14.

Pistorius, they take extreme measures to safeguard their homes,

:33:14.:33:19.

and these types of accidents happen. Very much like the battered wife

:33:19.:33:25.

syndrome. Where you have a person that is placed in a situation with

:33:25.:33:29.

a violent person around him, around her, and then she is left to deal

:33:29.:33:33.

with this. So therefore she's always called what we would think

:33:33.:33:41.

of as Jane Bond, because she has a license to ki. I would presume

:33:41.:33:46.

Oscar Pistorius would start with the same defence. He is the person

:33:46.:33:50.

under siege, and he's entitled to take extreme measures to defend

:33:50.:33:54.

himself because of what is happening in the broader community.

:33:54.:33:57.

I'm sure everybody in South Africa is aware that the whole world is

:33:57.:34:07.
:34:07.:34:07.

interested in this and watching it. I wondered how much pressure the

:34:07.:34:11.

South African legal system and people will feel to get this right?

:34:11.:34:16.

I would think extreme pressure. With the world looking on at how

:34:16.:34:21.

the justice system works you would expect that the investigation

:34:21.:34:27.

wouldn't have been rushed. It was. It was quite clearly undercooked.

:34:27.:34:33.

The investigating officer himself would appear to be the wrong choice.

:34:33.:34:37.

Now hopefully the team assembled will do it right. The inherent

:34:37.:34:42.

facts remain the same. So I believe that this case has a long way to

:34:42.:34:46.

run still. I'm sure that in due course the justice system will be

:34:47.:34:53.

able to show that it is up to the task. Thank you very much for

:34:53.:34:56.

talking to us. Before the end of the programme we

:34:56.:34:59.

will have tomorrow's front pages. But first, the Business Secretary,

:34:59.:35:02.

Vincent Cable, has suggested that more women should go into

:35:02.:35:06.

engineering, to help solve the skills shortage in a vital part of

:35:06.:35:10.

the British economy, and listened the idea that engineering is a

:35:10.:35:14.

dirty-hands business for blokess, with a lot of pens hanging out of

:35:14.:35:18.

their shirt pockets. Nine out of ten engineers are men, but need it

:35:18.:35:28.
:35:28.:35:29.

always be like. That Cars, conveyor-belts and robots,

:35:29.:35:33.

usual boys stuff, or are they? For these teenage girls this is more

:35:33.:35:38.

than just a tour. It is an attempt by Jaguar-Land Rover to encourage

:35:38.:35:41.

young women to consider a career in engineering. Those in the industry

:35:41.:35:46.

say it is suffering from a huge gender imbalance. With men make up

:35:46.:35:53.

more than 90% of its work force. When I say "engineer" to you, what

:35:53.:35:59.

pops up in your mind? Your typical man in their overalls, fixing the

:35:59.:36:02.

washing machine and asking for a cup of tea at the same time. What

:36:02.:36:07.

about you? It is very physical and dirty, maybe sometimes you go home

:36:07.:36:11.

in covered overalls. Sometimes you would see a man. It is very male-

:36:11.:36:16.

dominated, I would say. 20% of the UK's advanced engineering and

:36:16.:36:21.

manufacturing work force is female. Compared to 49% for all other

:36:22.:36:28.

sectors. Only 6% of professional engineers today are women. Research

:36:28.:36:34.

suggests misconceptions about the industry are turning many women off.

:36:34.:36:37.

Those in the industry say they are facing a perception challenge. The

:36:37.:36:43.

image of men in boiler suits and hard hats must be diluted if they

:36:43.:36:47.

want to recruit more women to the sector, they say. How to do that is

:36:47.:36:51.

still puzzling those at the top. Even though firms like this one are

:36:51.:36:56.

employing initiatives to increase the number of women, figures

:36:56.:37:00.

suggest over all they are having a limited impact.

:37:01.:37:04.

Since 208, the number of women working in the industry has gone up

:37:04.:37:09.

by just 1%. It is thought that Britain needs to train more than

:37:09.:37:13.

90,000 scientists and engineers over the next four years to replace

:37:13.:37:18.

those who retire. Trainers say there is a skills shortage with

:37:18.:37:24.

more than 300,000 engineers lacking up-to-date qualifications. Women

:37:24.:37:27.

represent a huge opportunity, because right now today, the data

:37:27.:37:31.

says that only a very percentage of women decide to move into

:37:31.:37:36.

engineering disciplines. So to me it just represents a huge untapped

:37:36.:37:42.

resource of talented people out there that we could attract into

:37:42.:37:46.

engineering in the future. Figures show out of those who study

:37:46.:37:51.

engineering at degree level, 85% of them go into paid work or further I

:37:51.:37:54.

hadcation within -- education within six months of finishing

:37:54.:37:59.

their course. Even so, 50% of those who study it choose not to go into

:37:59.:38:03.

the industry, compared to 30% of their male counterparts. What would

:38:03.:38:08.

more women in the sector bring to the table? Women are excellent

:38:08.:38:13.

problem solvers. They can also add an area of multitasking to really

:38:13.:38:19.

drive problems through. Often when in times when you have a difficult

:38:19.:38:23.

problem to tackle, women can bring a different dynamic to the team

:38:23.:38:28.

that is looking at the issue. That is a very important matter. Vincent

:38:28.:38:32.

Cable used a recent trip to an aviation company to urge more women

:38:32.:38:36.

to join the sector. The UK has one of the lowest proportion of female

:38:36.:38:39.

engineers in Europe. He says the Government is working hard with

:38:39.:38:43.

companies to promote the opportunities available by

:38:43.:38:48.

encouraging more school visits to engineering plants. However, he

:38:48.:38:51.

believes part of the problem is some women don't believe they are

:38:51.:38:55.

capable of doing the job. I think in many cases it is lack of

:38:55.:39:01.

confidence. It is an assumption that this is all not for us, and a

:39:01.:39:04.

bit difficult. Actually young women should be told that they probably

:39:05.:39:10.

have as much, if not more potential than men, and should overcome lack

:39:10.:39:14.

of confidence. I think that's one thing we can do is to say, well,

:39:14.:39:20.

there are lots of very good role models out there.

:39:21.:39:26.

Amid a backdrop of a gloomy economy, the UK's engineering sector is

:39:26.:39:30.

expanding. It turned over more than a trillion pounds in the year

:39:30.:39:36.

ending March 2011, almost 25% of the turnover of all UK businesses.

:39:36.:39:40.

But a failure to recruit the right people here could lead to

:39:40.:39:46.

recruiting from abroad. Those in the industry say at a time of high

:39:46.:39:51.

unemployment, doing that would feel very wrong.

:39:51.:39:56.

Watching that were the skills minister, Matthew Hancock, and Sue

:39:56.:40:01.

Ion, a fellow of the Royal Academy of Engineering. What do you think

:40:01.:40:07.

the problem is here? The main problem is the number of girls

:40:07.:40:10.

doing physics in school. You have to get them early enough. Once they

:40:10.:40:12.

get to A-level they have already taken a decision to either take

:40:12.:40:18.

physics or not. Unless you do physics you can't do mechanical

:40:18.:40:22.

engineering, you can't do electrical or civil engineering,

:40:22.:40:29.

can you do chemical engineering, it is not mandatory, especially the

:40:29.:40:32.

bioengineering aspects. Physics is hard, that is true? It is, but it

:40:32.:40:36.

is also very exciting. It is no harder than any of the other

:40:36.:40:40.

scientific disciplines. I think there is a real issue in schools in

:40:40.:40:43.

terms of getting girls particularly interested in physics. We are all

:40:43.:40:48.

agreed there is a problem, it affects boys as well as girls,

:40:48.:40:53.

disproportion nationally girls. What is the Government doing about

:40:53.:40:57.

it? -- decision proportionally girls. What is the Government doing

:40:57.:41:01.

about it? There is a problem, and we can't exclude half of the

:41:01.:41:07.

population from the profession. We have a series of proposals on the

:41:07.:41:12.

daibl. We are working with Rolls- Royce and BAe and Network Rail on a

:41:12.:41:16.

specific project to get girls interested at a younger age. You

:41:16.:41:20.

mentioned A-levels is too late. And also support them through. But it

:41:20.:41:25.

is also about that big kalure change. Getting engineering --

:41:25.:41:28.

culture change. Getting engineering into schools from 14. You can go to

:41:28.:41:32.

college aged 14 instead of 16, and the new university technical

:41:32.:41:36.

colleges are all about getting these sorts of skills in younger so,

:41:36.:41:40.

that we can catch kids when they are enthusiastic. We heard Vincent

:41:40.:41:49.

Cable there say there are a lot of role models. Our guest is one, but

:41:50.:41:56.

can you name others? I will give you a great example, the Apprentice

:41:56.:42:01.

of the Year is called Jenny, working in engineering in Preston.

:42:01.:42:05.

Totally brilliant, and 21 years old. She says because she last gone into

:42:06.:42:08.

an apprenticeship at 18 in engineering, while her friends are

:42:08.:42:12.

at university, she can afford to buy her own car. There are role

:42:12.:42:18.

models out there. Of course when there are far fewer women in senior

:42:18.:42:21.

engineering roles it is incumbent on more of them coming forward to

:42:21.:42:27.

mentor too. Is part of it actually that a lot of teenagers and younger

:42:27.:42:33.

girls don't know what engineering is? They don't know what it is. We

:42:33.:42:37.

heard the prejudice, we heard it there, some bloke fixing the

:42:37.:42:40.

washing machine and demanding a cup of tea? That is a real

:42:40.:42:43.

misconception and we have to do a lot to fix it. A lot of people have

:42:43.:42:47.

no idea what engineering is about. They don't know it is about

:42:47.:42:52.

designing bridges, or about designing and making new heart

:42:52.:42:58.

pacemakers or bionic limbs, or fixing the energy problems by

:42:58.:43:01.

developing new wind or marine turbines or power station, or

:43:01.:43:06.

running new power station, whether nuclear or other. It is about every

:43:06.:43:15.

aspect of life in the 21st century. I noticed, one of the quotes from

:43:15.:43:19.

Professional Engineer Magazine, a woman who loves her job, she says

:43:19.:43:22.

she has been to meetings where because she's the only woman she's

:43:22.:43:26.

thought to be the secretary. There is a degree of that going on that

:43:26.:43:30.

puts women off? That is in the minority rather than the majority.

:43:30.:43:35.

Most industry is more mature in the way it approaches gender within the

:43:35.:43:40.

sector. Other countries do better, don't they. Turkey, women engineers

:43:40.:43:44.

in Turkey in lots of places, China? China and the Eastern Bloc. It is

:43:44.:43:49.

going in the right direction here. Over the last four years there are

:43:49.:43:54.

a third more women applying to go to university to do engineering.

:43:54.:43:59.

The number of apprenticeships in engineering is up 120% in just the

:43:59.:44:03.

last year. Things -- 20% in just the last year. Things are starting

:44:03.:44:08.

to move. I hope the culture block is starting to move. Engineering is

:44:08.:44:11.

problem solving which is something, in my experience, women are

:44:12.:44:16.

brilliant at and just as good as men. And there is absolutely no

:44:16.:44:19.

reason, especially in this high- tech world that there should be any

:44:19.:44:24.

gender divide at all. What was the moment when you said I'm going to

:44:24.:44:29.

be an engineer? I guess I did maths, physics and chemistry. I enjoyed

:44:30.:44:34.

them all. I wasn't sure whether I wanted to pick one out of all of

:44:34.:44:38.

those. For me, at the time a mixture of those subjects, which

:44:38.:44:42.

meant engineering was the right exciting thing for me to do. I have

:44:42.:44:45.

never regreted it. We will leave it there. Thank you very much.

:44:45.:44:50.

Now let's have a quick look at tomorrow morning's front pages. The

:44:50.:45:00.
:45:00.:45:00.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 81 seconds

:45:00.:46:22.

That's all from us tonight, we will Good evening. A widespread frost to

:46:22.:46:26.

start the day. We could get as low as a minus 10 in the Highland. More

:46:26.:46:30.

typically minus two or three. With a lot of cloud across the eastern

:46:30.:46:33.

side of the UK. That cloud bringing a few light snow showers. Through

:46:33.:46:37.

the morning and on into the afternoon. Quite grey skies across

:46:37.:46:41.

much of northern England. Cumbria may poke out in something a little

:46:41.:46:45.

bit brighter. There are wintery showers in and around the Wash,

:46:45.:46:49.

nothing too untoward. One or two degrees for Oxford and London under

:46:49.:46:52.

the cloud. It will feel more like minus two or three. A cold

:46:52.:46:58.

afternoon to come here. Cold in the south west in spite of the sunshine.

:46:58.:47:03.

Significant wind chill factor, cold and grey across most of Wales.

:47:03.:47:06.

Cardigan Bay poking out brighter. After grey start in Northern

:47:06.:47:11.

Ireland. Good sunny spells here. After that really cold start to the

:47:11.:47:14.

west of Scotland, it will be sunny for most of the day. Always more

:47:14.:47:17.

cloud in the east of Scotland. Generally speaking a fair bit of

:47:17.:47:22.

cloud around to end the week. A lot of cloud to start the weekend.

:47:22.:47:26.

Notice those temperatures staying at 3, 4 degrees, if you are lucky.

:47:26.:47:29.

There is still a keen breeze blowing across the southern half of

:47:29.:47:33.

the UK. The wind chill factor will come into the play for the first

:47:33.:47:37.

How a planned terror attack in Britain was foiled, the return of Berlusconi, the Pistorious trial gets stranger, and women as engineers. With Gavin Esler.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS