22/02/2013 Newsnight


22/02/2013

Simon Hughes, MP and Peter Tatchell go face-to-face 30 years after the bitter Bermondsey by-election campaign. With Eddie Mair.


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In the past hour, Britain has lost its triple-A credit rating. Moody's

:00:15.:00:19.

blames subdued growth prospects and a high and rising debt burden. What

:00:19.:00:24.

will the Government do now? They have boasted about the rate before.

:00:24.:00:28.

We will maintain Britain's triple-A credit rating. This credit rating

:00:28.:00:32.

agency says that Britain's economic credibility will be on the line at

:00:32.:00:37.

the general election. One of the things I'm very keen on

:00:37.:00:40.

do is preserving Britain's international credit rating. Also

:00:40.:00:44.

tonight, 30 years after the dirty by-election that rewrote the rules,

:00:44.:00:48.

Peter Tatchell and Simon Hughes, face-to-face.

:00:48.:00:51.

Can fairytales come true? Bradford fans hope football can help heal

:00:51.:00:54.

their city. It has brought the city together.

:00:54.:00:57.

It has been really unifying. Everyone is behind the club now to

:00:57.:01:01.

be at Wembley is just dreams come true. I think there will be crying

:01:01.:01:09.

on Sunday, I will be, and a lot of other people will be. It is

:01:09.:01:16.

something beyond our wildest dreams. Whenever the Chancellor, George

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Osborne, has faced criticism over his economic policies, and there

:01:19.:01:24.

has been plenty of that, he has pointed, proudly, to his deficit

:01:24.:01:27.

reduction programme and the glowing approval of the Credit Rating

:01:27.:01:31.

Agencies. Not any more he can't. One agency, Moody's, says the weak

:01:31.:01:36.

economic outlook is likely to extend into the second half of the

:01:36.:01:42.

decade. What is a ratings agency, and why should we care? A credit

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ratings agency is nothing more than a gloryied think-tank that gives

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its opinion as to the -- glorified think-tank that gives its opinion

:01:52.:01:58.

to a country, and it gives a rating depending on healthy it is. The top

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rate is triple-A, then it is double-A, all the way down to junk

:02:05.:02:11.

status. The UK has been downgraded by the triple-A status, by one of

:02:12.:02:17.

the big one, Standard & Poor and Fitch haven't announced yet, but we

:02:17.:02:24.

are on nothingive outlook. significant is neglect outlook?

:02:24.:02:33.

is a forewarning that we will out look may be a downgrading. And

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Moody's have done that, down to the second-highest notch. It was like

:02:37.:02:42.

we did tell you if you didn't get your house in order and we are

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acting. They are acting before the budget. Usually they wait until

:02:45.:02:48.

after the big set piece events. They warned just before the Autumn

:02:48.:02:53.

Statement that they might do something, and now the budget,

:02:53.:02:57.

which is March 20th they are acting in advance of that. The words from

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the Treasury is "this is a stark reminder of the debt problems

:03:01.:03:05.

facing our country ". Or is it a stark reminder that George Osborne

:03:05.:03:10.

isn't doing a good job? I spoke to one senior banker who said George

:03:10.:03:15.

Osborne has two years to save his job. He staked so much of his

:03:15.:03:19.

political capital on the triple-A status. The question is, what

:03:19.:03:22.

happens now, what will the UK Government do. The budget is coming

:03:22.:03:26.

up, as I was saying. Will they then stick to Plan A, or will they be

:03:26.:03:29.

freed up, as it were, because they no longer have this Sword of

:03:30.:03:32.

Damocles hanging over their shoulder. I spoke to Treasury

:03:32.:03:36.

officials t doesn't looks a if they will move from a Plan A to Plan B.

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They are talking about the fact that even though they have been

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downgraded, they are downgraded to "stable" status, they won't be

:03:45.:03:48.

downgrade in the future. That can't be said for the United States or

:03:48.:03:52.

France. They are stressing the fact that there are major global

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problems, the UK has to deal with a very weak eurozone, and potentially

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weaker global environment where people aren't necessarily buying UK

:03:58.:04:02.

goods and services as much as they would do. What is the detail of

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Moody's thinking what are they saying? If you look at some of the

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wording, it is all CRA, credit- rating agency speak. They talk

:04:10.:04:20.
:04:20.:04:23.

about the high and rising debt What that means is there is no

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money under the mattress. They talk about the fact that cuts

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and the austerity programme that we have seen over the last few years,

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and are scheduled to go on until the near end of the decade, will

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have a long-term impact on the finances of the country. What will

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this do to the financial markets what will it do to the pound?

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pound has had a pretty nasty Few months any way. In actual fact, the

:04:48.:04:51.

markets tend to be a few months ahead of these rating agencies.

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Sterling has fallen appreciably against the US dollar, the main

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global currency, over the last few months. That is good for exporters,

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but it is also a problem because the UK import as lot of products in

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other currencies. They will cost more, that will push up inflation.

:05:08.:05:11.

So we have seen the pound. The interesting thing is what will it

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mean to the cost of borrowing for the UK Government. Bond yields,

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that is the benchmark for the interest rate on UK Government debt.

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Will that change? At the moment we are enjoying very, very

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historically low rates of borrowing for the UK Government. We don't

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know whether that will change T may do, but for now it is relatively

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steady and still reel yiefly cheap. Thank you very much. Let --

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Relatively cheap. Thank you very much. Let's get more expert

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thinking, Megan Greene is from Maverick Intelligence, and we have

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a guest from a think-tank, and Gillian Tett from the financial

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times. Is there shock in New York? No. This is a politically

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embarrassing thing for George Osborne, given how much of his

:06:00.:06:04.

reputation, credibility is staked on maintaining the triple-A rating.

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The reality is the club of countries downgraded is large and

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growing by the day. Here in America, America has already lost its

:06:11.:06:16.

triple-A rating from one rating agency. As a result the sense of

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shock in the markets is pretty low. They have hardly reacted to the

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news at all. So if there was ever a good moment to be downgraded it is

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probably now, given just how many other countries have already

:06:26.:06:29.

suffered that fate. Megan Greene, how damaging do you think this is

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to George Osborne? I think it is hugely damaging politically. But in

:06:34.:06:37.

financial terms I don't think this will be very damaging for the UK. I

:06:37.:06:40.

think largely this downgrade has already been priced in. There were

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rumours just a week ago. Does literally nothing change as a

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result of this in practical terms? Gilts might go up a little bit.

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Markets have priced it in. I think it will change the kalous for the

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budget next month. First of all, today we have heard of the release

:06:57.:07:01.

of the European Commission's forecast for the eurozone which is

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dismal, and most of the UK's exports go to the eurozone. That

:07:05.:07:08.

will impact growth. We have had the announcement about the downgrade,

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previously we had thought the UK wouldn't let up on austerity,

:07:12.:07:15.

because they would be worried about losing their triple-A ratinging.

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Now they have lost it perhaps the Government will go ahead, and stop

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front-loading austerity so much. I think that would be visible. What

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do you think the reason is for this downgrade? Can we blame austerity

:07:29.:07:33.

or the sluggish behaviour of the eurozone? It is a bit of both, as

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always. If you look at the statement, which I only had a brief

:07:39.:07:44.

glance at, they are talking about the UK economy having strong

:07:44.:07:48.

fundamentals and being more flexible than a lot of other world

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economies to absorb the shocks that we may see from the eurozone. So it

:07:51.:07:55.

is a bit of both. I agree with Megan, financially it may not be

:07:55.:08:00.

that big of a dee. But politically, of course, this -- a deal, but

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politically, of course, this is strengthening the line of attack

:08:04.:08:06.

for those who warn against austerity. Gillian Tett, do you

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think there will be any material change in policy as a result of

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this downgrading. Thinking in particular of the austerity

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programme? I do think this downgrading in some ways does give

:08:20.:08:23.

the Chancellor a little more wiggle room, if you like. As Megan pointed

:08:23.:08:28.

out, having staked his credibility on maintaining the triple-A rating

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and saying we have to pursue austerity at all costs. The fact

:08:31.:08:35.

that the UK has been downgrade a bit by one of the rating agencies,

:08:35.:08:40.

in some ways gives himly way, maybe, to step back a bit. I don't think

:08:40.:08:46.

it is so much -- him leeway to step back a bit. I don't think it is so

:08:46.:08:50.

much stepping back from Plan A to Plan B, it is stepping back to Plan

:08:50.:08:54.

A-and-a-half. It is worth pointing out on the global stage, there is

:08:54.:09:00.

growing signs of a backlash against extreme Austerty. It started in

:09:00.:09:03.

Japan, the fact that the Japanese Government is pursuing stimulus

:09:03.:09:07.

rather than just Austerty. And increationly on the continent and

:09:07.:09:12.

in the UK, do we really want so much austerity that we will kill

:09:12.:09:16.

off the recovery and make it even harder to get the debt burden

:09:16.:09:19.

brought down. There is something almost perverse about George

:09:19.:09:25.

Osborne clinging to central policy. Telling us all the time how

:09:25.:09:29.

important triple-A is, when it disappears it gives him more

:09:29.:09:33.

options and wriggle room? It could be positive for the UK's growth as

:09:33.:09:39.

well. If you think towards the medium and long-term. The UK's

:09:39.:09:44.

fiscal dynamic is worrisome, it doesn't look better than some of

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the eurozone countries. Letting up on austerity could help the growth

:09:48.:09:52.

model, and the UK could avoid a recession. It means it feeds into a

:09:52.:09:55.

bigger deficit and higher debt burden going forward, which the UK

:09:55.:09:59.

will have to deal with eventually. Is the rest of the world looking at

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Britain tonight differently. Is anyone thinking they might not pay

:10:02.:10:08.

off their debts? I still think that the global economic reputation that

:10:08.:10:12.

Britain enjoys is quite strong. Again I think that's reflected in

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Moody's statement. Of course there are huge questions around now about

:10:17.:10:21.

the UK's ability to stick to this politically as well. As we heard,

:10:21.:10:26.

there is a growing backlash against austerity, which is coming in from

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the continent, and now potentially and politically affecting Britain

:10:29.:10:33.

as well. For now, the global reputation in the UK is still I

:10:33.:10:37.

fairly stable. We heard at the start of the programme some vintage

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clips of George Osborne saying how important the triple-A credit

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rating is. What is he saying tonight? It is a stark reminder of

:10:46.:10:49.

the debt problems Britain faces, and the clearest possible warning

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to anyone who thinks we can run away from dealing with those

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problems. Far from weakening our resolve to deal with Britain's

:10:56.:11:01.

debts. It should redouble our resolve to deliver the plan that

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has cut the deficit by 25%, delivered a million jobs, but also

:11:06.:11:08.

delivered record low interest rates for many families. What do you

:11:08.:11:12.

think of that? He's right. This is a reminder that the UK has a huge

:11:13.:11:16.

debt problem, and we will have to deal with it. This also gives him

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wiggle room to avoid dealing with it right now. What do you think of

:11:20.:11:24.

what the Chancellor had to say? has to say that. And I agree. He

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has a very good point. The question is, is it possible to sell this at

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the doorstep in future. The budget is only a month away. How much of a

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rewrite will there be as a result of this? It is unclear at the

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moment. I'm sure there are plenty of people inside the Treasury doing

:11:42.:11:45.

head scratching now it is worth making one point. When George

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Osborne came to power, one of the reasons he used such very tough

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language, was because there was a widespread concern that the UK

:11:52.:11:58.

would suffer a big market crisis. Someone like the big bond investors

:11:58.:12:04.

here in America, was predicting that the UK was sitting on a bed of

:12:04.:12:09.

nitroglycerin, and about to explode dramatically in the gay way the

:12:09.:12:13.

Greek bond market exploded. That hasn't happened, and it gives the

:12:13.:12:17.

Chancellor more wriggle room in the budget. As you heard in the

:12:17.:12:21.

programme earlier, British bond yields are at rock bottom lows at

:12:21.:12:24.

the moment, they haven't soared yet. There is a little more flexibility

:12:24.:12:30.

than people might have thought originally. We have I will luded to

:12:30.:12:35.

this, -- eluded to this. That the eurozone will carry on declining

:12:35.:12:38.

for another year and the light at the end of the tunnel gets further

:12:38.:12:43.

away. Who will Britain export to? That is the big concern. Far and

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away most of Britain's exports are going to the eurozone, some are

:12:46.:12:50.

going to emerging markets. Not nearly as large a percentage of

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exports as in other countries like Germany, for example. Britain's

:12:53.:12:56.

entire plan for returning to sustainable growth is to shift away

:12:56.:13:00.

from domestic consumption, towards exports. It can't do that when its

:13:00.:13:08.

biggest export markets are contracting. Thank you to my guests.

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30 years ago this Sunday the people of Bermondsey in south London went

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to the polls in a by-election. The Labour candidate, Peter Tatchell.

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The Liberal candidate, Simon Hughes. Mr Hughes won with a 44% swing. But

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it is the campaign which still resonates. It was dirty. Very dirty.

:13:30.:13:33.

Peter Tatchell's homosexuality was ridiculed by his opponent and some

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on his own side, including a rival, real Bermondsey Labour candidate.

:13:39.:13:43.

The Liberals put out a leaflet saying the election was a

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"straight" choice. Tonight, three decades later, Peter Tatchell and

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Simon Hughes will be face o face again. Here are some images of the

:13:52.:14:00.

campaign. The Liberals are in a state of

:14:00.:14:03.

political his tearia, since Friday's poll revealed them in

:14:03.:14:13.

second place and closing on Labour. -- hysteria, since Friday's poll

:14:13.:14:15.

revealed them in second place closing on Labour. Who are you

:14:15.:14:20.

going to vote for? I don't vote. Why don't you vote? Because I don't

:14:20.:14:25.

know nothing about politics. snag is that Liberals can also go

:14:25.:14:30.

on a bit. That's what we often. have something to do, we can't

:14:30.:14:34.

stand here talking to that lot. Peter Tatchell to do him justice,

:14:34.:14:38.

has continued to recite statisticss and talk about policies. He remains

:14:38.:14:42.

slight favourite on Thursday. But he's clearly worried, even

:14:42.:14:46.

frightened at the campaign which is being waged against him. There has

:14:46.:14:50.

been a lot of mud-throwing in the campaign, some of it sticks. There

:14:50.:14:55.

has been an unprecedented campaign to discredit myself and the Labour

:14:55.:15:00.

Party. We have eight complaints about fabricated stories into the

:15:00.:15:06.

press complaints council. Some of the mud has obviously stuck.

:15:06.:15:10.

Peter Tatchell, leaving aside what happened to your accent! What are

:15:10.:15:13.

you rembering, you are quoted as saying it was one of the darkest

:15:13.:15:17.

periods of your life, like living through a low-level Civil War. It

:15:17.:15:22.

sounds awful? I think that the Bermondsey by-election was probably

:15:22.:15:27.

the dirtiest and most violent election campaign in Britain in the

:15:27.:15:31.

20th century. Is that his fault? will come on to that in a minute.

:15:31.:15:34.

It was certainly the most homophobic election campaign in

:15:35.:15:37.

British his treatment I can remember at the time some people

:15:37.:15:40.

made the comparison between myself and the villification of Oscar

:15:40.:15:44.

Wilde, saying this was the most sustained homophobic villification

:15:44.:15:49.

of any public figure since Oscar Wilde in the late 1890s. That aside,

:15:49.:15:54.

what I know personally is that I had personally suffered during that

:15:54.:15:58.

campaign over 100 violent attacks while out canvasing. What did

:15:58.:16:02.

people do? There were 30 attacks upon my home. More than 30 death

:16:02.:16:06.

threats. What did they do to you physically? Punched, kicked, spat

:16:06.:16:11.

at. It was, I had to steel myself to go out on the doorsteps to knock.

:16:11.:16:15.

Not everyone responded in that way. There were many wonderful, open-

:16:15.:16:20.

minded people, who supported me, or at least gave me a hearing. But the

:16:20.:16:25.

scale of hatred and violence, which seemed to coincide with the tabloid

:16:25.:16:30.

campaign, was truly horrific. I remember an old man, who was a

:16:30.:16:34.

refugee from Nazi Germany, I remember knocking on his door and

:16:34.:16:38.

he said he never saw anything like it since he left Germany in the

:16:38.:16:44.

early 1930s. Thankfully our society has moved on. I would like to think

:16:44.:16:48.

that, in particular home -- the particular homophobic campaign

:16:48.:16:52.

against me caused such a public revulsion, that when Chris Smith

:16:52.:16:57.

the Labour candidate came out the next year got a much more

:16:57.:17:01.

sympathetic reception. And he didn't get the tabloid stick I got.

:17:01.:17:05.

Between the end of the campaign and Chris Smith, why weren't you

:17:05.:17:13.

crushed by this? I felt it was important not to give in. I felt if

:17:13.:17:18.

I ran away and hid it would give comfort and sucker to all those

:17:18.:17:21.

people who did those terrible things. Although I was standing on

:17:21.:17:27.

a broad Labour platform of social justice and equality for all. The

:17:27.:17:31.

home folkic part that have campaign made me resolve to devote more

:17:31.:17:35.

energy to fighting for gay rights, so no other person would have to go

:17:35.:17:39.

through what I went through. Simon Hughes, you have apologised

:17:39.:17:42.

publicly and privately to Peter Tatchell before for anything you

:17:42.:17:47.

did wrong. What was it you did wrong? I got caught up in a

:17:48.:17:51.

campaign that had the attitudes that Peter described. Peter has

:17:51.:17:55.

always been very fair afterwards. Wrote a book, I haven't had time to

:17:55.:17:59.

write the book. Wrote the book and made clear the two major targets

:17:59.:18:03.

were his own then party, the Labour Party, which gave him a really hard

:18:03.:18:07.

time. We were both paradoxically on the same side, attacking the old

:18:07.:18:11.

Labour Party in Bermondsey, I would never had won, had the old Labour

:18:11.:18:15.

Party not run the place as badly as it did, and also the press. Which

:18:15.:18:20.

was despicable. It is without doubt that we benefited from that. Until

:18:20.:18:24.

three weeks before the election. Were you just the passive

:18:24.:18:27.

beneficiaries, or did you do things, which in the cold light of day you

:18:27.:18:31.

wish you hadn't? In the cold light of day, if I had been in charge and

:18:31.:18:36.

wanted to rewrite it, we would have had leaflets which wouldn't have

:18:36.:18:40.

had "it's a straight choice", although that was regularly used in

:18:41.:18:44.

all by-elections before and afterwards without any sexuality

:18:44.:18:48.

import. There was one event which Peter referred to when people went

:18:48.:18:52.

out canvasing with badges making fun of Peter's sexuality, in fact,

:18:52.:18:58.

I gather they were gay liberal activists and they were told to

:18:58.:19:01.

take them O there were some things that shouldn't have happened. I'm

:19:01.:19:05.

clear it was a disgraceful campaign in terms of homophobia. I have

:19:05.:19:10.

tried, particularly, to make sure that in my time as MP I have done

:19:10.:19:16.

nothing to set back the cause of gay equality and equality, and I

:19:16.:19:21.

have worked with Peter and others, and there is time when we were on

:19:21.:19:28.

the same site. Section 28, Tories bringing in repressive legislation,

:19:28.:19:32.

and Labour abstaining, it was myself and others on a committee

:19:32.:19:36.

trying to challenge the Tories. I have tried to keep up that campaign.

:19:36.:19:41.

And Peter and I were talking now making sure we have a policy to

:19:41.:19:46.

give asylum to people in 24 country who if they went home would -- in

:19:46.:19:51.

their country if they went home they would suffer because of their

:19:51.:19:55.

sexuality. You were candidate about your sexuality later in life. I

:19:55.:20:01.

spoke to someone that I would be speaking to you both, and they said,

:20:01.:20:06.

the closeted gay man won, and the open gay man lost. Is it as simple

:20:06.:20:09.

as that? I think this issue is about more than homosexuality. If

:20:09.:20:13.

you look at the range of policies I was attacked over. I was described

:20:13.:20:17.

as extremist because I supported policies that are now mainstream.

:20:17.:20:20.

National minimum wage, comprehensive equality law, gay

:20:20.:20:24.

rights, and a negotiated political settlement in Northern Ireland.

:20:24.:20:29.

These are all mainstream policies. When I advocated them then I was

:20:29.:20:33.

demonised as extremist. In many different way, not just gay issue,

:20:33.:20:37.

on a whole range of issues, our society has moved on. That is to

:20:37.:20:43.

the credit of the British people. To pick up the wider politics, I

:20:43.:20:47.

like Pete e I come from the radical left of politics. I found myself

:20:47.:20:49.

active in local politics in Bermondsey before the by-election,

:20:49.:20:53.

before Peter was even suggested as a candidate, let alone selected.

:20:54.:20:59.

The battle was on basic issues that mattered to people. It was about

:20:59.:21:03.

jobs and the Docklands Corporation taking over people's democratic

:21:03.:21:06.

rights. It was about housing, grim, badly repaired. It was because the

:21:06.:21:09.

Labour Party had failed in the inner city, which Peter was attacks

:21:09.:21:13.

from within the Labour Party and trying to change, and I was

:21:13.:21:17.

attacking from outside as the other radical party, that they were on

:21:17.:21:22.

the agenda. Most of the election, until Peter was selected three

:21:22.:21:25.

weeks before, homosexuality was not a key election issue. The other

:21:25.:21:29.

things were the issues, the development of dockland and housing.

:21:29.:21:36.

On the policies, just as a politician, you lost a safe Labour

:21:36.:21:40.

seat. How many was it down to sexuality or other aspects of you

:21:40.:21:44.

or the politics? I feel very guilty and sad that I lost a safe Labour

:21:44.:21:51.

seat. I have to take responsibility for that. But the choice for me was

:21:51.:21:56.

hardly there, because I found that almost at no point during the

:21:56.:22:00.

campaign was there media reportage of the policies I was fighting. I

:22:00.:22:05.

was demonised as a Marxist with a militant tendency, I was opposed by

:22:05.:22:08.

the militant tendency, I didn't support them, they didn't support

:22:08.:22:11.

me. It was really difficult to get a fair hearing. I think a lot of

:22:12.:22:16.

the voters did actually not know what I stood for. They had this

:22:16.:22:18.

caricature. That is why at the beginning of the campaign, the

:22:18.:22:23.

opinion polls gave me 47% of the vote. Three weeks later it was

:22:23.:22:28.

completely reversed. I had, I didn't have 47%, Simon did.

:22:28.:22:32.

interesting thing on the way it was for most of the time it was battle

:22:32.:22:37.

between old and new Labour, not us. Peter Tatchell and Simon Hughes,

:22:37.:22:41.

thank you both. From West Yorkshire to Wembley,

:22:41.:22:44.

thousands of Bradford fans will make the journey this weekend.

:22:44.:22:48.

Hoping to witness their low-ranking side triumph over a team 71 league

:22:48.:22:52.

places above them. The official prize, the League Cup. But for

:22:52.:23:02.
:23:02.:23:03.

Bradford, it is not just about the silverwear.

:23:03.:23:07.

It was a tragedy so harrowing and shocking that it has become

:23:07.:23:15.

interweaved with the identity of both the city of Bradford and its

:23:15.:23:20.

football club. In 1985, 56 supporters were killed when a fire

:23:20.:23:30.
:23:30.:23:33.

engulfed the main stand, fuelled by the accumulated litter below.

:23:33.:23:37.

Family parade today is a different place. With memories of one of

:23:37.:23:41.

sport's defining tragedies still very real. On Sunday, the

:23:41.:23:46.

concluding chapter of a rather astonishing fairytale. Bradford, in

:23:46.:23:49.

the final of the League Cup at Wembley. This is a story that goes

:23:49.:23:55.

way beyond football. It is a story of community and tribalism, and an

:23:55.:24:00.

increasingly fragmented world. The assistance provided by the

:24:01.:24:03.

Bangladeshi community to traumatised fans in the aftermalt

:24:03.:24:08.

of the fire, was a profound -- aftermath of the fire, was a

:24:08.:24:14.

profoundly unifying moment in a city scarred bi-racial tension. You

:24:14.:24:18.

say people knocked on your door and you opened the door what happened

:24:18.:24:24.

next? They asked for me. I said what help. They said water or

:24:24.:24:34.
:24:34.:24:35.

cloths. People were united and felt sorrow about this thing. But racial

:24:35.:24:40.

tension has flared since, with running battles between whites and

:24:40.:24:44.

Asians, just a few hundred yards away from the ground in 2001.

:24:44.:24:49.

Community leaders have come together to find solutions. But

:24:49.:24:54.

what does "community" actually mean in a city with such visible ethnic,

:24:54.:24:57.

religious and racial differences. What role does football have to

:24:57.:25:04.

play? Every Saturday if you come round on a Saturday you will see

:25:04.:25:08.

Bradford City fans, walking down the street, saying hello. There is

:25:08.:25:14.

no an no sirity amongst the people that come here. There is not a

:25:14.:25:21.

perfect solution to solving any of the issues. But football is a way

:25:21.:25:26.

of engaging. A female fan wore the hijab to a match against Aston

:25:26.:25:29.

Villa in the semifinal of the League Cup in January. Many are

:25:29.:25:35.

describing the cup run Asim bowlic of a newly-united city. It is an

:25:35.:25:39.

alluring narrative. But are things quite so simple? The proportion of

:25:39.:25:42.

people from these different backgrounds vr suss the proportion

:25:42.:25:45.

in the ground is -- versus the proportion in the grounds is not

:25:45.:25:48.

the same. You want to see more people from different backgrounds

:25:48.:25:54.

in there. This football club, it is an English football club with her

:25:54.:25:57.

ridge, but it should be for the whole community no matter where you

:25:57.:26:03.

come from. No matter where you come from, Bradford City should be

:26:03.:26:08.

considered yours. Before the influx of Bangladeshis and Pakistanis in

:26:08.:26:12.

the 1950s and on words, central and eastern Europeans were already in

:26:12.:26:20.

Bradford. In these streets a few yards away from Valley Parade,

:26:20.:26:23.

Poles, Ukrainians were once central to the city's industrialisation,

:26:23.:26:28.

and many of their descentants will be at Wembley on Sunday. This area

:26:28.:26:35.

we are standing in now was probably built by wealthy business people,

:26:35.:26:42.

who came pleeing the Jewish pogroms -- fleeing the Jewish pogroms in

:26:42.:26:45.

the 19th sent treatment they carry oud their work, built mills, traded

:26:45.:26:50.

in wool and all that sort of thing. All of the various communities

:26:50.:26:55.

rallied around the club after the fire in 1985. Representations had

:26:55.:26:59.

been made to Bradford City, warning of the dangers posed by the litter

:26:59.:27:04.

under the stand. But the city didn't want to turn against the

:27:04.:27:09.

club. Bradford had already lost one of its two clubs, Bradford Park

:27:09.:27:15.

Avenue, to liquidation in 1974. They didn't want to lose another.

:27:15.:27:18.

think that a football club like Bradford City, there is a certain

:27:18.:27:21.

vulnerability to it. It is important that Bradford City always

:27:21.:27:27.

has a football club in the league. We lost one in the 1970s. It is an

:27:27.:27:32.

important thing to have that club there. That does sometimes lead

:27:32.:27:37.

people to protect it in that sense, as you problems, to say let's leave

:27:37.:27:42.

it and keep it as it is. The meaning of football has

:27:42.:27:46.

undergone profound changes in recent years. Particularly in the

:27:46.:27:53.

top flight. Clubs like Manchester United and Chelsea are baubles of

:27:53.:27:57.

global capitalism. But despite the transformation in the economics of

:27:57.:28:01.

modern football, its meaning amongst fans is still recoginsable.

:28:01.:28:06.

It is about identity, and shared experiences.

:28:06.:28:11.

Bradford City has endured a rollercoaster ride in recent years,

:28:11.:28:13.

suffering repeated relegation and near bankruptcy.

:28:13.:28:20.

But more than 30,000 fans will make the pilgrimage to Wembley this

:28:20.:28:24.

weekend, many of them Asians and eastern Europeans. They have

:28:24.:28:27.

probably changed their red and white and blue and yellow colours

:28:27.:28:32.

to the amber and claret. We will have people watching in the youth

:28:32.:28:35.

club down here on the big screen. In the centre we will be watching

:28:35.:28:42.

the game. We will be making sure we are behind Bradford. The last time

:28:42.:28:47.

they won a trophy was in 1911, that was when they won the last trophy.

:28:47.:28:50.

I will be crying on Sunday a lot of people will be, it is something

:28:51.:28:58.

beyond our wildest dreams. It would be spurious to suppose a

:28:58.:29:02.

glorified kick about at Wembley could solve the complex problems of

:29:02.:29:07.

social integration. But perhaps it provides the sign post. At its best

:29:07.:29:11.

football shines a light on the connections that bind us together,

:29:11.:29:17.

in a fragmented world. For a club and a city that has endured tragedy

:29:17.:29:21.

and conflict, that could almost be revolutionary.

:29:21.:29:26.

We will have a look at tomorrow's front pages then Review.

:29:26.:29:33.

Do join us for a feast of film, ahead of the Oscars on Sunday with

:29:33.:29:37.

our guests. We were talking about some stand-out films and heart-

:29:37.:29:40.

breaking performances and the ones the academy has left out. Join us

:29:40.:29:50.
:29:50.:30:21.

A grim week for one of the BBC's most important programmes, Richard

:30:21.:30:27.

Bryers, died at the weekend, and it is said the animator of the show

:30:27.:30:32.

has also died, he was 91 he won an Academy Award and a BAFTA, he will

:30:32.:30:38.

be most remembered for the dog and the pink cat and the birds who are

:30:38.:30:45.

laughing. They are not laughing tonight. Rhubarb was reeling with

:30:45.:30:48.

laughter, together with the fish wearing moon fish bones. I do

:30:48.:30:54.

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