25/02/2013 Newsnight


25/02/2013

A Lib Dem, a cardinal and an Italian former prime minister; all accused of sexual misconduct. A government economic policy with no AAA rating. And geothermal energy in Africa.


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He strongly denies all the He strongly denies all the

:00:11.:00:12.

He strongly denies all the allegations against him. It is a

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allegations against him. It is a allegations against him. It is a

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allegations against him. It is a line you will hear a lot in the

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line you will hear a lot in the line you will hear a lot in the

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course of tonight's programme. This course of tonight's programme. This

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course of tonight's programme. This evening we bring you, Berlusconi

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evening we bring you, Berlusconi evening we bring you, Berlusconi

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back from the brink. The Cardinal back from the brink. The Cardinal

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back from the brink. The Cardinal back from the brink. The Cardinal

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who quit. First up, crisis in the Clegg camp.

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Clegg camp. Clegg camp.

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The party President said today "we The party President said today "we

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The party President said today "we The party President said today "we

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screwed up", but who did and when? screwed up", but who did and when?

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screwed up", but who did and when? screwed up", but who did and when?

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The Lib Dem's deputy leader is to here explain.

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here explain. here explain.

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Feeling moody, our triple-A rate Feeling moody, our triple-A rate

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something gone, what difference something gone, what difference

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something gone, what difference does it make to Government's

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does it make to Government's does it make to Government's

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prospects. I know four different prospects. I know four different

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leadership challenges putting leadership challenges putting

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leadership challenges putting together, there is huge unrest in

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together, there is huge unrest in together, there is huge unrest in

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parliament. This is the enGeneva parliament. This is the enGeneva

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parliament. This is the enGeneva revolution in Kenya seeking to

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revolution in Kenya seeking to revolution in Kenya seeking to

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light up the entire continent. light up the entire continent.

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light up the entire continent. light up the entire continent.

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Could this be the force of the Could this be the force of the

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Could this be the force of the nature that electfies Africa in the

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21st century. 21st century.

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21st century. Good evening, "we screwed up", the

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Good evening, "we screwed up", the Good evening, "we screwed up", the

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Lib Dem President told the BBC Lib Dem President told the BBC

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Lib Dem President told the BBC today. In words his leader, Nick

:01:15.:01:17.

today. In words his leader, Nick today. In words his leader, Nick

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today. In words his leader, Nick Clegg be may or may not have found

:01:19.:01:20.

Clegg be may or may not have found particularly supportive. After

:01:20.:01:22.

particularly supportive. After particularly supportive. After

:01:23.:01:24.

women accused the former party women accused the former party

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chief executive of inappropriate chief executive of inappropriate

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chief executive of inappropriate behaviour. The questions why no-one

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behaviour. The questions why no-one behaviour. The questions why no-one

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reacted today what they were told reacted today what they were told

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reacted today what they were told over a series of years. Scotland

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over a series of years. Scotland over a series of years. Scotland

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Yard tonight are looking at whether Yard tonight are looking at whether

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Yard tonight are looking at whether or not any criminal activity took

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or not any criminal activity took or not any criminal activity took

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place. The Liberal Democrats have place. The Liberal Democrats have

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place. The Liberal Democrats have launched not one but two inquiries,

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launched not one but two inquiries, launched not one but two inquiries,

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days before one of the most days before one of the most

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seriously fought by-elections in seriously fought by-elections in

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seriously fought by-elections in years. The timing couldn't be worse,

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years. The timing couldn't be worse, years. The timing couldn't be worse,

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Nick Clegg's party was strolling Nick Clegg's party was strolling

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Nick Clegg's party was strolling towards victory in Eastleigh, now

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towards victory in Eastleigh, now they are investigating allegations

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they are investigating allegations they are investigating allegations

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of sexual misconduct against a man of sexual misconduct against a man

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of sexual misconduct against a man of sexual misconduct against a man

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who was once part of their inner who was once part of their inner

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who was once part of their inner who was once part of their inner

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circle. We screwed this up, as a circle. We screwed this up, as a

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circle. We screwed this up, as a party. There are individuals out

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party. There are individuals out party. There are individuals out

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party. There are individuals out there who we had a duty of care

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there who we had a duty of care there who we had a duty of care

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there who we had a duty of care towards who we did not fulfil that

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towards who we did not fulfil that towards who we did not fulfil that

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towards who we did not fulfil that duty of air to them. Lord Rennard,

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duty of air to them. Lord Rennard, duty of air to them. Lord Rennard,

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around whom the allegations centre, around whom the allegations centre,

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strongly disputes the charpblgts, strongly disputes the charpblgts,

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strongly disputes the charpblgts, strongly disputes the charpblgts,

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and says not a -- charges, and says and says not a -- charges, and says

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and says not a -- charges, and says not a single complaint of

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not a single complaint of not a single complaint of

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misconduct was made. And Friday he misconduct was made. And Friday he

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misconduct was made. And Friday he said that he denied any allegation

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said that he denied any allegation said that he denied any allegation

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of improper touching. It was here of improper touching. It was here

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of improper touching. It was here at the party's former headquarters

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at the party's former headquarters at the party's former headquarters

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that Lord Rennard masterminded the that Lord Rennard masterminded the

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that Lord Rennard masterminded the string of by-election victories won

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string of by-election victories won string of by-election victories won

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string of by-election victories won by the Lib Dems over their decades

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by the Lib Dems over their decades by the Lib Dems over their decades

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in the wilderness. Senior figures in the wilderness. Senior figures

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in the wilderness. Senior figures in the wilderness. Senior figures

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who have worked with him for years who have worked with him for years

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who have worked with him for years have reacted with shock at the

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have reacted with shock at the allegations. But Newsnight has

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allegations. But Newsnight has allegations. But Newsnight has

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learned that one senior figure did learned that one senior figure did

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try to take action. try to take action.

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try to take action. Sources have told Newsnight that as

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Sources have told Newsnight that as Sources have told Newsnight that as

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Sources have told Newsnight that as a senior a figure as the then party

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a senior a figure as the then party a senior a figure as the then party

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President Ros Scott, learned there President Ros Scott, learned there

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President Ros Scott, learned there was an issue with Lord Rennard's

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was an issue with Lord Rennard's was an issue with Lord Rennard's

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was an issue with Lord Rennard's conduct, and she did try to do

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conduct, and she did try to do conduct, and she did try to do

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something about it. What is not something about it. What is not

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something about it. What is not known is whether Ros Scott was

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known is whether Ros Scott was known is whether Ros Scott was

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known is whether Ros Scott was listened to by the rest of her

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listened to by the rest of her listened to by the rest of her

:03:05.:03:08.

party. Last week Channel 4 News party. Last week Channel 4 News

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broadcast specific allegations broadcast specific allegations

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broadcast specific allegations against Lord Rennard. In 2003, a

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against Lord Rennard. In 2003, a against Lord Rennard. In 2003, a

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woman, a former adviser to Nick woman, a former adviser to Nick

:03:15.:03:16.

woman, a former adviser to Nick woman, a former adviser to Nick

:03:17.:03:18.

Clegg, said that he behaved in an Clegg, said that he behaved in an

:03:18.:03:21.

inappropriate manner to him. inappropriate manner to him.

:03:21.:03:22.

Alison Smith reported inappropriate Alison Smith reported inappropriate

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Alison Smith reported inappropriate Alison Smith reported inappropriate

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behaviour in 2007 to the then Chief behaviour in 2007 to the then Chief

:03:25.:03:27.

behaviour in 2007 to the then Chief Whip, Paul Burstow, and the party

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Whip, Paul Burstow, and the party Whip, Paul Burstow, and the party

:03:29.:03:30.

spokeswoman for equality and women, spokeswoman for equality and women,

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spokeswoman for equality and women, she, Alison Smith, said no action

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she, Alison Smith, said no action she, Alison Smith, said no action

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was taken. Following Channel 4 was taken. Following Channel 4

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was taken. Following Channel 4 News's report, the Lib Dems said

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News's report, the Lib Dems said News's report, the Lib Dems said

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News's report, the Lib Dems said the first Nick Clegg knew of the

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the first Nick Clegg knew of the allegation was after the

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allegation was after the broadcaster contacted the party.

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broadcaster contacted the party. broadcaster contacted the party.

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Last night the Lib Dem leader Last night the Lib Dem leader

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Last night the Lib Dem leader clarified that in 2008 Nick Clegg

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clarified that in 2008 Nick Clegg clarified that in 2008 Nick Clegg

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asked his then Chief of Staff, asked his then Chief of Staff,

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asked his then Chief of Staff, Danny Alexander, to put indirect

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Danny Alexander, to put indirect Danny Alexander, to put indirect

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and non-specific concerns to Lord and non-specific concerns to Lord

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and non-specific concerns to Lord Rennard. In 2010 the Telegraph

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Rennard. In 2010 the Telegraph Rennard. In 2010 the Telegraph

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contacted Nick Clegg's Chief of contacted Nick Clegg's Chief of

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contacted Nick Clegg's Chief of Staff, Jonny Oates about five

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Staff, Jonny Oates about five allegations against Lord Rennard,

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allegations against Lord Rennard, allegations against Lord Rennard,

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Oates denies Nick Clegg was made Oates denies Nick Clegg was made

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Oates denies Nick Clegg was made aware of the allegations. This

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aware of the allegations. This aware of the allegations. This

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aware of the allegations. This morning the Lib Dem leader was on

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morning the Lib Dem leader was on morning the Lib Dem leader was on

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the defensive. Here at dawn at the defensive. Here at dawn at

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the defensive. Here at dawn at Radio Solent. Until last week, no

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Radio Solent. Until last week, no Radio Solent. Until last week, no

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very specific allegations were put very specific allegations were put

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very specific allegations were put very specific allegations were put

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to me. We acted on general concerns to me. We acted on general concerns

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to me. We acted on general concerns which had been expressed some time

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which had been expressed some time which had been expressed some time

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which had been expressed some time ago. But, of course, now that those

:04:29.:04:30.

ago. But, of course, now that those ago. But, of course, now that those

:04:30.:04:31.

general concerns have evolved into general concerns have evolved into

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general concerns have evolved into specific allegations, we can act

:04:32.:04:33.

specific allegations, we can act specific allegations, we can act

:04:33.:04:34.

specific allegations, we can act and we will. Alison Smith was one

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and we will. Alison Smith was one and we will. Alison Smith was one

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of the women who made allegations of the women who made allegations

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of the women who made allegations of the women who made allegations

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to Channel 4 News. A former party to Channel 4 News. A former party

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to Channel 4 News. A former party activist, she now teaches at Oxford

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activist, she now teaches at Oxford activist, she now teaches at Oxford

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University. What would she say to University. What would she say to

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University. What would she say to students considering a life in

:04:45.:04:46.

students considering a life in students considering a life in

:04:46.:04:47.

politics. Just describe what you politics. Just describe what you

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politics. Just describe what you politics. Just describe what you

:04:48.:04:50.

think you would say to them right think you would say to them right

:04:50.:04:50.

think you would say to them right now, if nothing was done about

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now, if nothing was done about now, if nothing was done about

:04:54.:04:55.

going into work in the Liberal going into work in the Liberal

:04:55.:04:56.

going into work in the Liberal Democrats? First I would have to

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Democrats? First I would have to Democrats? First I would have to

:04:57.:04:58.

Democrats? First I would have to ask if they were sure, if nothing

:04:58.:04:58.

ask if they were sure, if nothing ask if they were sure, if nothing

:04:58.:04:59.

ask if they were sure, if nothing is done. I would have to actually

:04:59.:05:00.

is done. I would have to actually is done. I would have to actually

:05:00.:05:01.

is done. I would have to actually tell them exactly what I had come

:05:01.:05:02.

tell them exactly what I had come tell them exactly what I had come

:05:02.:05:03.

tell them exactly what I had come up against, and what other people I

:05:03.:05:06.

up against, and what other people I up against, and what other people I

:05:06.:05:07.

know came up against. But I'm know came up against. But I'm

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know came up against. But I'm hoping something will be done. I

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hoping something will be done. I hoping something will be done. I

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think you can see very slowly think you can see very slowly

:05:11.:05:13.

think you can see very slowly think you can see very slowly

:05:13.:05:14.

things at the top of the party, things at the top of the party,

:05:14.:05:14.

things at the top of the party, there is definitely things changing,

:05:14.:05:15.

there is definitely things changing, there is definitely things changing,

:05:15.:05:17.

there is some movement, I think there is some movement, I think

:05:17.:05:19.

there is some movement, I think there. To fight a by-election,

:05:19.:05:21.

there. To fight a by-election, there. To fight a by-election,

:05:21.:05:22.

Rennard's insight was known as Rennard's insight was known as

:05:22.:05:22.

pavement politics within pavement politics within

:05:22.:05:23.

pavement politics within Westminster. Flood an area with a

:05:23.:05:25.

Westminster. Flood an area with a Westminster. Flood an area with a

:05:25.:05:27.

huge number of resources and huge number of resources and

:05:27.:05:28.

huge number of resources and activists for a longer, or

:05:28.:05:30.

activists for a longer, or activists for a longer, or

:05:30.:05:31.

relentless period of time than your relentless period of time than your

:05:31.:05:32.

relentless period of time than your opponents. It was very often

:05:32.:05:33.

opponents. It was very often opponents. It was very often

:05:33.:05:35.

successful. It would have a bitter successful. It would have a bitter

:05:35.:05:36.

successful. It would have a bitter successful. It would have a bitter

:05:36.:05:37.

sweet symmetry, if the man who for sweet symmetry, if the man who for

:05:38.:05:38.

sweet symmetry, if the man who for sweet symmetry, if the man who for

:05:38.:05:40.

so long was the Lib Dem's by- so long was the Lib Dem's by-

:05:40.:05:42.

election brain, ended up election brain, ended up

:05:42.:05:43.

overturning their by-election in overturning their by-election in

:05:43.:05:44.

overturning their by-election in overturning their by-election in

:05:44.:05:45.

the seat of eastly the Lib Dems had the seat of eastly the Lib Dems had

:05:45.:05:46.

the seat of eastly the Lib Dems had the seat of eastly the Lib Dems had

:05:46.:05:47.

been set to hold the seat, now both been set to hold the seat, now both

:05:47.:05:48.

been set to hold the seat, now both been set to hold the seat, now both

:05:48.:05:49.

sides agree it will be tighter. sides agree it will be tighter.

:05:49.:05:51.

sides agree it will be tighter. is extremely difficult to say how

:05:51.:05:53.

is extremely difficult to say how is extremely difficult to say how

:05:53.:05:54.

crucially important he was, nobody crucially important he was, nobody

:05:54.:05:55.

is ultimately irreplacable. But is ultimately irreplacable. But

:05:55.:05:57.

certainly, the Liberal Democrats certainly, the Liberal Democrats

:05:57.:05:59.

certainly, the Liberal Democrats would have wanted to retain Chris

:05:59.:06:01.

would have wanted to retain Chris would have wanted to retain Chris

:06:01.:06:01.

Rennard. He's respected, even if Rennard. He's respected, even if

:06:01.:06:02.

Rennard. He's respected, even if he's not a household name, he's

:06:02.:06:03.

he's not a household name, he's he's not a household name, he's

:06:03.:06:04.

respected in the Westminster bubble respected in the Westminster bubble

:06:04.:06:06.

respected in the Westminster bubble as one of the greatest campaigners

:06:06.:06:07.

as one of the greatest campaigners as one of the greatest campaigners

:06:07.:06:10.

of recent times. You don't kick of recent times. You don't kick

:06:10.:06:10.

of recent times. You don't kick somebody like that out of the

:06:11.:06:12.

somebody like that out of the Liberal Democrats without thinking

:06:12.:06:12.

Liberal Democrats without thinking Liberal Democrats without thinking

:06:12.:06:14.

Liberal Democrats without thinking about it long and very hard indeed.

:06:14.:06:15.

about it long and very hard indeed. about it long and very hard indeed.

:06:16.:06:16.

about it long and very hard indeed. Lord Rennard was not kicked out. He

:06:16.:06:17.

Lord Rennard was not kicked out. He Lord Rennard was not kicked out. He

:06:18.:06:18.

Lord Rennard was not kicked out. He left his role on account of ill-

:06:18.:06:20.

left his role on account of ill- left his role on account of ill-

:06:20.:06:21.

health. But those laying their health. But those laying their

:06:21.:06:22.

health. But those laying their allegations say there is a wider

:06:22.:06:24.

allegations say there is a wider problem within the Liberal

:06:24.:06:25.

problem within the Liberal Democrats. This culture is

:06:25.:06:27.

Democrats. This culture is Democrats. This culture is

:06:27.:06:28.

absolutely intolerable. For a start, absolutely intolerable. For a start,

:06:28.:06:29.

absolutely intolerable. For a start, absolutely intolerable. For a start,

:06:29.:06:30.

it is going beyond the pat on the it is going beyond the pat on the

:06:30.:06:30.

it is going beyond the pat on the it is going beyond the pat on the

:06:31.:06:31.

it is going beyond the pat on the knee a lot of the time. Even if it

:06:31.:06:32.

knee a lot of the time. Even if it knee a lot of the time. Even if it

:06:32.:06:33.

knee a lot of the time. Even if it was just a pat on the knee, who

:06:33.:06:35.

was just a pat on the knee, who was just a pat on the knee, who

:06:35.:06:36.

gets to decide what's an acceptable gets to decide what's an acceptable

:06:36.:06:37.

gets to decide what's an acceptable advance and what is not an

:06:38.:06:39.

advance and what is not an acceptable advance. The power

:06:39.:06:40.

acceptable advance. The power acceptable advance. The power

:06:40.:06:41.

dynamics in these situations are dynamics in these situations are

:06:41.:06:42.

dynamics in these situations are quite scary. The Liberal Democrats

:06:42.:06:44.

quite scary. The Liberal Democrats quite scary. The Liberal Democrats

:06:45.:06:46.

have a prowess for bagging by- have a prowess for bagging by-

:06:46.:06:47.

have a prowess for bagging by- elections. And they claim it is

:06:47.:06:48.

elections. And they claim it is elections. And they claim it is

:06:48.:06:49.

their party that without fail their party that without fail

:06:49.:06:51.

their party that without fail speaks up for the ignored. This

:06:51.:06:52.

speaks up for the ignored. This speaks up for the ignored. This

:06:52.:06:53.

week they are grappling to retain week they are grappling to retain

:06:53.:06:57.

week they are grappling to retain week they are grappling to retain

:06:57.:06:58.

both badges of honour. The Lib Dem both badges of honour. The Lib Dem

:06:58.:07:00.

both badges of honour. The Lib Dem deputy leader, Simon Hughes, joins

:07:00.:07:01.

deputy leader, Simon Hughes, joins deputy leader, Simon Hughes, joins

:07:01.:07:01.

deputy leader, Simon Hughes, joins me now. Thank you very much for

:07:01.:07:02.

me now. Thank you very much for me now. Thank you very much for

:07:02.:07:03.

me now. Thank you very much for coming in Simon. I want to start

:07:03.:07:04.

coming in Simon. I want to start coming in Simon. I want to start

:07:04.:07:05.

with a report in the Telegraph with a report in the Telegraph

:07:05.:07:07.

with a report in the Telegraph with a report in the Telegraph

:07:07.:07:08.

tomorrow morning, it is from one of tomorrow morning, it is from one of

:07:08.:07:09.

tomorrow morning, it is from one of your own councillors in Southwark,

:07:09.:07:11.

your own councillors in Southwark, your own councillors in Southwark,

:07:11.:07:13.

who made a complaint in 2008, who made a complaint in 2008,

:07:13.:07:14.

allegations of improper behaviour allegations of improper behaviour

:07:14.:07:15.

allegations of improper behaviour by Lord Rennard. Two months later,

:07:15.:07:17.

by Lord Rennard. Two months later, by Lord Rennard. Two months later,

:07:17.:07:18.

by Lord Rennard. Two months later, when she was pregnant, she was told

:07:18.:07:20.

when she was pregnant, she was told when she was pregnant, she was told

:07:20.:07:21.

her John was disappearing and she, her John was disappearing and she,

:07:22.:07:24.

her John was disappearing and she, her John was disappearing and she,

:07:24.:07:25.

as we understand, came to a setment, as we understand, came to a setment,

:07:25.:07:26.

as we understand, came to a setment, including a silence clause. What do

:07:26.:07:27.

including a silence clause. What do including a silence clause. What do

:07:27.:07:28.

you -- a settlement, including a you -- a settlement, including a

:07:28.:07:29.

you -- a settlement, including a silence clause. What do you

:07:29.:07:30.

silence clause. What do you silence clause. What do you

:07:30.:07:31.

understand of that? I have heard understand of that? I have heard

:07:31.:07:32.

understand of that? I have heard understand of that? I have heard

:07:32.:07:33.

nothing of it until what you have nothing of it until what you have

:07:33.:07:34.

nothing of it until what you have nothing of it until what you have

:07:34.:07:34.

just read to me. You have never just read to me. You have never

:07:34.:07:35.

just read to me. You have never heard about somebody who was

:07:35.:07:36.

heard about somebody who was heard about somebody who was

:07:36.:07:37.

heard about somebody who was working for the Lib Dems, signing a

:07:37.:07:38.

working for the Lib Dems, signing a working for the Lib Dems, signing a

:07:38.:07:39.

silence clause to not repeat silence clause to not repeat

:07:39.:07:40.

silence clause to not repeat allegations. This is news to you?

:07:40.:07:41.

allegations. This is news to you? allegations. This is news to you?

:07:41.:07:42.

allegations. This is news to you? This is news to me. This is from

:07:42.:07:43.

This is news to me. This is from This is news to me. This is from

:07:44.:07:44.

the Telegraph, this happened in the Telegraph, this happened in

:07:44.:07:45.

the Telegraph, this happened in the Telegraph, this happened in

:07:45.:07:46.

2008? That's news to me. I knew 2008? That's news to me. I knew

:07:46.:07:47.

2008? That's news to me. I knew 2008? That's news to me. I knew

:07:47.:07:48.

nothing about it at all. I served, nothing about it at all. I served,

:07:49.:07:49.

nothing about it at all. I served, nothing about it at all. I served,

:07:49.:07:50.

as you may remember, for four years as you may remember, for four years

:07:50.:07:52.

as you may remember, for four years as you may remember, for four years

:07:52.:07:53.

and a bit as party President, I can and a bit as party President, I can

:07:53.:07:56.

and a bit as party President, I can and a bit as party President, I can

:07:56.:07:57.

say, cat -- Party President, I can say, cat -- Party President, I can

:07:57.:07:59.

say, cat -- Party President, I can say categorically that no formal or

:07:59.:08:00.

say categorically that no formal or say categorically that no formal or

:08:00.:08:01.

informal allegation, no rumour or informal allegation, no rumour or

:08:01.:08:06.

informal allegation, no rumour or report reached me about the length

:08:06.:08:08.

report reached me about the length report reached me about the length

:08:08.:08:09.

report reached me about the length of those four, plus years, and I

:08:09.:08:10.

of those four, plus years, and I of those four, plus years, and I

:08:10.:08:10.

of those four, plus years, and I heard nothing that said this was an

:08:10.:08:11.

heard nothing that said this was an heard nothing that said this was an

:08:11.:08:13.

heard nothing that said this was an issue for an individual in the part.

:08:13.:08:15.

issue for an individual in the part. issue for an individual in the part.

:08:15.:08:16.

Tim Farron, the Lib Dem President Tim Farron, the Lib Dem President

:08:16.:08:18.

Tim Farron, the Lib Dem President today said "we screwed up" who

:08:18.:08:19.

today said "we screwed up" who today said "we screwed up" who

:08:19.:08:20.

today said "we screwed up" who screwed up? I think that is an

:08:20.:08:21.

screwed up? I think that is an screwed up? I think that is an

:08:21.:08:23.

unfair conclusion to reach given we unfair conclusion to reach given we

:08:23.:08:25.

have launched two investigations. have launched two investigations.

:08:25.:08:26.

have launched two investigations. He's entitled to choose his own

:08:26.:08:28.

He's entitled to choose his own language, but immediately the

:08:28.:08:30.

language, but immediately the language, but immediately the

:08:30.:08:31.

allegations were put to a allegations were put to a

:08:31.:08:32.

allegations were put to a television channel and put to the

:08:32.:08:33.

television channel and put to the television channel and put to the

:08:33.:08:34.

television channel and put to the party. That was the first time I

:08:34.:08:35.

party. That was the first time I party. That was the first time I

:08:35.:08:36.

heard about them, and the first heard about them, and the first

:08:36.:08:37.

heard about them, and the first time Nick Clegg heard about them.

:08:37.:08:38.

time Nick Clegg heard about them. Immediately that happened two

:08:38.:08:41.

Immediately that happened two inquiries were launched. An

:08:41.:08:42.

inquiries were launched. An inquiries were launched. An

:08:42.:08:44.

internal inquiry, which will have a internal inquiry, which will have a

:08:44.:08:46.

internal inquiry, which will have a internal inquiry, which will have a

:08:46.:08:46.

QC leading it. A very eminent QC QC leading it. A very eminent QC

:08:46.:08:50.

looking at the allegations. looking at the allegations.

:08:50.:08:51.

looking at the allegations. Listening to the complaints, and

:08:51.:08:52.

Listening to the complaints, and Listening to the complaints, and

:08:52.:08:54.

listening to the defendant. In a listening to the defendant. In a

:08:54.:08:56.

second investigation, led second investigation, led

:08:56.:08:57.

entirelyly independently for the entirelyly independently for the

:08:57.:08:59.

entirelyly independently for the party, which is into our processes.

:08:59.:09:00.

party, which is into our processes. party, which is into our processes.

:09:00.:09:02.

What was he talking about "screwed What was he talking about "screwed

:09:02.:09:03.

What was he talking about "screwed up", was he talking about party

:09:03.:09:04.

up", was he talking about party up", was he talking about party

:09:04.:09:05.

leadership, Nick Clegg in that? Who leadership, Nick Clegg in that? Who

:09:05.:09:07.

leadership, Nick Clegg in that? Who screwed up? I heard the same

:09:07.:09:09.

screwed up? I heard the same screwed up? I heard the same

:09:09.:09:12.

interview as you did. He clearly interview as you did. He clearly

:09:12.:09:13.

interview as you did. He clearly feels that an allegation made about

:09:13.:09:15.

feels that an allegation made about feels that an allegation made about

:09:15.:09:15.

feels that an allegation made about an event in 2003 before Nick Clegg

:09:16.:09:16.

an event in 2003 before Nick Clegg an event in 2003 before Nick Clegg

:09:16.:09:18.

was leader, before he was in was leader, before he was in

:09:18.:09:19.

was leader, before he was in parliament, and other things, were

:09:19.:09:21.

parliament, and other things, were parliament, and other things, were

:09:21.:09:21.

parliament, and other things, were not picked up somewhere at the time.

:09:21.:09:22.

not picked up somewhere at the time. not picked up somewhere at the time.

:09:22.:09:23.

not picked up somewhere at the time. There has clearly been a history of

:09:23.:09:25.

There has clearly been a history of There has clearly been a history of

:09:25.:09:26.

a few episodes reported by people a few episodes reported by people

:09:26.:09:27.

a few episodes reported by people like Alison Smith. I heard nothing

:09:27.:09:28.

like Alison Smith. I heard nothing like Alison Smith. I heard nothing

:09:28.:09:30.

like Alison Smith. I heard nothing about this until last week. If they

:09:30.:09:31.

about this until last week. If they about this until last week. If they

:09:31.:09:33.

were reported into the system, if were reported into the system, if

:09:33.:09:34.

were reported into the system, if they were, and if they weren't

:09:34.:09:35.

they were, and if they weren't they were, and if they weren't

:09:35.:09:36.

dealt with then clearly something dealt with then clearly something

:09:36.:09:37.

dealt with then clearly something dealt with then clearly something

:09:37.:09:38.

went wrong. That is why you have an went wrong. That is why you have an

:09:38.:09:39.

went wrong. That is why you have an went wrong. That is why you have an

:09:39.:09:39.

inquiry and seek to get to the inquiry and seek to get to the

:09:39.:09:41.

inquiry and seek to get to the inquiry and seek to get to the

:09:41.:09:43.

bottom of it. I'm not going to pre- bottom of it. I'm not going to pre-

:09:43.:09:44.

bottom of it. I'm not going to pre- bottom of it. I'm not going to pre-

:09:44.:09:46.

empt it. We have just been through empt it. We have just been through

:09:46.:09:47.

empt it. We have just been through the whole Leveson episode about

:09:47.:09:48.

the whole Leveson episode about the whole Leveson episode about

:09:48.:09:48.

whether press put names on the whether press put names on the

:09:49.:09:49.

whether press put names on the whether press put names on the

:09:49.:09:51.

front page and have a go and judge front page and have a go and judge

:09:51.:09:52.

front page and have a go and judge front page and have a go and judge

:09:52.:09:53.

and jury. We have a process, it is and jury. We have a process, it is

:09:53.:09:55.

and jury. We have a process, it is only fair both to the complainants

:09:55.:09:55.

only fair both to the complainants only fair both to the complainants

:09:55.:09:56.

and the person complained about and the person complained about

:09:56.:09:57.

and the person complained about that there is due process.

:09:57.:09:58.

that there is due process. that there is due process.

:09:58.:10:00.

that there is due process. haven't much time. I want to put to

:10:00.:10:01.

haven't much time. I want to put to haven't much time. I want to put to

:10:01.:10:04.

you a couple of things, Justin you a couple of things, Justin

:10:04.:10:06.

you a couple of things, Justin you a couple of things, Justin

:10:06.:10:07.

Jarod said this is not a Jimmy Jarod said this is not a Jimmy

:10:07.:10:13.

Savile thing, touching someone's Savile thing, touching someone's

:10:13.:10:14.

Savile thing, touching someone's knee overboard, pretty historic. Do

:10:14.:10:15.

knee overboard, pretty historic. Do knee overboard, pretty historic. Do

:10:15.:10:16.

knee overboard, pretty historic. Do you agree? I don't agree with that.

:10:16.:10:18.

you agree? I don't agree with that. Nobody should behave

:10:18.:10:20.

Nobody should behave inappropriately before their staff.

:10:20.:10:21.

inappropriately before their staff. inappropriately before their staff.

:10:21.:10:24.

inappropriately before their staff. One of your Lib Dem candidates has

:10:24.:10:26.

One of your Lib Dem candidates has One of your Lib Dem candidates has

:10:26.:10:27.

said that, is he representative of said that, is he representative of

:10:27.:10:29.

said that, is he representative of the modern party? No he's not.

:10:29.:10:30.

the modern party? No he's not. the modern party? No he's not.

:10:30.:10:32.

Should he be a candidate? Should he be a candidate?

:10:32.:10:33.

Should he be a candidate? separate issue. Possibly you think

:10:33.:10:33.

separate issue. Possibly you think separate issue. Possibly you think

:10:33.:10:35.

separate issue. Possibly you think he shouldn't if he says things like

:10:35.:10:36.

he shouldn't if he says things like he shouldn't if he says things like

:10:36.:10:37.

that? Employees in the party should that? Employees in the party should

:10:37.:10:38.

that? Employees in the party should that? Employees in the party should

:10:38.:10:39.

know they can go to work, senior know they can go to work, senior

:10:39.:10:39.

know they can go to work, senior know they can go to work, senior

:10:40.:10:40.

people in the party can deal with people in the party can deal with

:10:40.:10:41.

people in the party can deal with senior officers in the party

:10:41.:10:43.

senior officers in the party senior officers in the party

:10:43.:10:44.

without any fear of inappropriate without any fear of inappropriate

:10:44.:10:45.

behaviour either from their behaviour either from their

:10:45.:10:45.

behaviour either from their employers or senior members of the

:10:45.:10:47.

employers or senior members of the employers or senior members of the

:10:47.:10:48.

public. That clearly is wrong. It public. That clearly is wrong. It

:10:48.:10:50.

public. That clearly is wrong. It is unacceptable, in any walk of

:10:50.:10:51.

is unacceptable, in any walk of is unacceptable, in any walk of

:10:51.:10:53.

life, in any organisation, in this life, in any organisation, in this

:10:53.:10:54.

life, in any organisation, in this life, in any organisation, in this

:10:54.:10:55.

one, our party or any other party. one, our party or any other party.

:10:55.:10:55.

one, our party or any other party. one, our party or any other party.

:10:55.:10:56.

We are trying to get to the bottom, We are trying to get to the bottom,

:10:56.:10:57.

We are trying to get to the bottom, We are trying to get to the bottom,

:10:57.:10:58.

right now, of who knew and who right now, of who knew and who

:10:58.:11:00.

right now, of who knew and who right now, of who knew and who

:11:00.:11:01.

didn't know. Lax lax lax said last didn't know. Lax lax lax said last

:11:01.:11:01.

didn't know. Lax lax lax said last night, he said -- Danny Alexander

:11:01.:11:02.

night, he said -- Danny Alexander night, he said -- Danny Alexander

:11:02.:11:03.

night, he said -- Danny Alexander said last night, he said he put the

:11:04.:11:04.

said last night, he said he put the said last night, he said he put the

:11:04.:11:05.

concerns to Chris Rennard at the concerns to Chris Rennard at the

:11:05.:11:07.

concerns to Chris Rennard at the time, and warned him that such

:11:07.:11:09.

time, and warned him that such behaviour was unacceptable. Now

:11:09.:11:10.

behaviour was unacceptable. Now what behaviour was unacceptable,

:11:10.:11:11.

what behaviour was unacceptable, what behaviour was unacceptable,

:11:11.:11:12.

what was the behaviour that he what was the behaviour that he

:11:12.:11:14.

what was the behaviour that he warned about there? Let's be clear

:11:14.:11:15.

warned about there? Let's be clear warned about there? Let's be clear

:11:15.:11:16.

warned about there? Let's be clear about this. It is no good having

:11:16.:11:17.

about this. It is no good having about this. It is no good having

:11:17.:11:18.

inquiries and seeking to prejudge inquiries and seeking to prejudge

:11:18.:11:18.

inquiries and seeking to prejudge inquiries and seeking to prejudge

:11:18.:11:19.

it and me trying to tell you things it and me trying to tell you things

:11:19.:11:22.

it and me trying to tell you things it and me trying to tell you things

:11:22.:11:25.

I don't know about, because I knew I don't know about, because I knew

:11:25.:11:26.

I don't know about, because I knew I don't know about, because I knew

:11:26.:11:27.

nothing. All the things that I know nothing. All the things that I know

:11:27.:11:29.

nothing. All the things that I know appeared last week, one, that there

:11:29.:11:30.

appeared last week, one, that there were specific allegations made

:11:30.:11:31.

were specific allegations made recently, now being investigated.

:11:32.:11:33.

recently, now being investigated. recently, now being investigated.

:11:33.:11:34.

recently, now being investigated. And two, that five years ago a

:11:34.:11:35.

And two, that five years ago a And two, that five years ago a

:11:35.:11:38.

rumour or something like it reached rumour or something like it reached

:11:38.:11:39.

rumour or something like it reached the leaders's office. He asked the

:11:39.:11:41.

the leaders's office. He asked the the leaders's office. He asked the

:11:41.:11:42.

-- leader's office, he asked the -- leader's office, he asked the

:11:42.:11:43.

-- leader's office, he asked the -- leader's office, he asked the

:11:43.:11:44.

Chief of Staff to speak to the Chief of Staff to speak to the

:11:44.:11:45.

Chief of Staff to speak to the person about whom the rumour or

:11:45.:11:47.

person about whom the rumour or person about whom the rumour or

:11:47.:11:49.

allegation was made, not naming an allegation was made, not naming an

:11:49.:11:50.

allegation was made, not naming an allegation was made, not naming an

:11:50.:11:51.

and an event. He did that and was and an event. He did that and was

:11:51.:11:52.

and an event. He did that and was and an event. He did that and was

:11:52.:11:53.

told there was no truth in it as told there was no truth in it as

:11:53.:11:54.

told there was no truth in it as far as I understand it.

:11:54.:11:56.

far as I understand it. far as I understand it.

:11:56.:11:59.

Telegraph put five allegations of Telegraph put five allegations of

:11:59.:12:00.

incidents involving Chris Rennard. incidents involving Chris Rennard.

:12:00.:12:01.

incidents involving Chris Rennard. incidents involving Chris Rennard.

:12:01.:12:01.

We know that the story tomorrow is We know that the story tomorrow is

:12:01.:12:03.

We know that the story tomorrow is We know that the story tomorrow is

:12:03.:12:04.

just in the Telegraph and we must just in the Telegraph and we must

:12:04.:12:05.

just in the Telegraph and we must just in the Telegraph and we must

:12:05.:12:06.

say that. But we know that the say that. But we know that the

:12:06.:12:08.

say that. But we know that the Chief Whip, the Equalities Minister,

:12:08.:12:09.

Chief Whip, the Equalities Minister, Chief Whip, the Equalities Minister,

:12:09.:12:10.

Clegg's Chief of Staff, the former Clegg's Chief of Staff, the former

:12:10.:12:11.

Clegg's Chief of Staff, the former deputy Chief of Staff, the former

:12:12.:12:12.

deputy Chief of Staff, the former deputy Chief of Staff, the former

:12:13.:12:14.

Party President, from what we Party President, from what we

:12:14.:12:15.

Party President, from what we understand today, all knew. It

:12:15.:12:17.

understand today, all knew. It understand today, all knew. It

:12:17.:12:18.

wasn't a secret? Emily, we are wasn't a secret? Emily, we are

:12:18.:12:19.

wasn't a secret? Emily, we are having an investigation to discover

:12:19.:12:20.

having an investigation to discover having an investigation to discover

:12:20.:12:22.

who knew what. I'm telling you who knew what. I'm telling you

:12:22.:12:23.

who knew what. I'm telling you face-to-face I knew none of these

:12:23.:12:25.

face-to-face I knew none of these face-to-face I knew none of these

:12:25.:12:25.

face-to-face I knew none of these things. Do you find that odd, that

:12:25.:12:26.

things. Do you find that odd, that things. Do you find that odd, that

:12:26.:12:27.

things. Do you find that odd, that you were the President at the time,

:12:27.:12:28.

you were the President at the time, you were the President at the time,

:12:28.:12:28.

you were the President at the time, and all those senior Lib Dems knew

:12:29.:12:30.

and all those senior Lib Dems knew and all those senior Lib Dems knew

:12:30.:12:32.

and nobody told you? Find it and nobody told you? Find it

:12:32.:12:34.

and nobody told you? Find it strange if there was some regular

:12:34.:12:35.

strange if there was some regular and substantive complaint made

:12:35.:12:37.

and substantive complaint made and substantive complaint made

:12:37.:12:37.

about the chief executive, because about the chief executive, because

:12:37.:12:38.

about the chief executive, because the President on behalf of the

:12:38.:12:39.

the President on behalf of the the President on behalf of the

:12:40.:12:41.

party is the person that employs party is the person that employs

:12:41.:12:42.

party is the person that employs the chief executive. I find that

:12:42.:12:43.

the chief executive. I find that the chief executive. I find that

:12:44.:12:44.

odd. I'm not discounting the odd. I'm not discounting the

:12:44.:12:46.

odd. I'm not discounting the allegations made, but we have now

:12:46.:12:47.

allegations made, but we have now allegations made, but we have now

:12:47.:12:48.

allegations made, but we have now set up two processes, there is a

:12:48.:12:49.

set up two processes, there is a set up two processes, there is a

:12:49.:12:50.

whistle blowing process and a whistle blowing process and a

:12:50.:12:51.

whistle blowing process and a process looking into the party's

:12:51.:12:53.

process looking into the party's procedures and an independently-led

:12:53.:12:54.

procedures and an independently-led procedures and an independently-led

:12:54.:12:55.

procedures and an independently-led review. That must be the best way

:12:55.:12:56.

review. That must be the best way review. That must be the best way

:12:56.:12:57.

in everybody's interest. I hope in everybody's interest. I hope

:12:57.:12:58.

in everybody's interest. I hope people will let that process take

:12:58.:13:02.

people will let that process take its course. Thank you.

:13:02.:13:03.

its course. Thank you. its course. Thank you.

:13:03.:13:04.

its course. Thank you. When we had it, it was talked as

:13:04.:13:05.

When we had it, it was talked as When we had it, it was talked as

:13:05.:13:07.

the golden tailsman, now we have the golden tailsman, now we have

:13:07.:13:09.

the golden tailsman, now we have the golden tailsman, now we have

:13:09.:13:10.

lost the Government is doing it -- lost the Government is doing it --

:13:10.:13:11.

lost the Government is doing it -- lost the Government is doing it --

:13:11.:13:12.

lost the Government is doing it -- shrugging it off as if it is no big

:13:12.:13:13.

shrugging it off as if it is no big shrugging it off as if it is no big

:13:13.:13:14.

deal. What is the significance of deal. What is the significance of

:13:14.:13:15.

deal. What is the significance of Britain's triple-A rating, on the

:13:15.:13:16.

Britain's triple-A rating, on the Britain's triple-A rating, on the

:13:16.:13:17.

right they are pushing to cut right they are pushing to cut

:13:17.:13:18.

right they are pushing to cut faster, on the left they are

:13:18.:13:19.

faster, on the left they are faster, on the left they are

:13:19.:13:20.

pushing to cut less. Will the pushing to cut less. Will the

:13:20.:13:22.

downgrade make any concrete downgrade make any concrete

:13:22.:13:23.

difference to the Government's difference to the Government's

:13:23.:13:24.

difference to the Government's policies. What will it mean for

:13:24.:13:26.

policies. What will it mean for policies. What will it mean for

:13:26.:13:26.

next month's budget. Our Economics next month's budget. Our Economics

:13:26.:13:31.

Editor offers his thoughts. Editor offers his thoughts.

:13:31.:13:33.

Editor offers his thoughts. Editor offers his thoughts.

:13:34.:13:34.

We lived through an IMF bail out, a We lived through an IMF bail out, a

:13:34.:13:36.

We lived through an IMF bail out, a "Winter of Discontent", a slump, a

:13:36.:13:38.

"Winter of Discontent", a slump, a "Winter of Discontent", a slump, a

:13:38.:13:39.

big bang, a Black Wednesday, a big bang, a Black Wednesday, a

:13:39.:13:40.

big bang, a Black Wednesday, a dotcom crash, and the near collapse

:13:40.:13:42.

dotcom crash, and the near collapse dotcom crash, and the near collapse

:13:42.:13:44.

of the financial system. All while of the financial system. All while

:13:44.:13:45.

remaining triple-A. George Osborne remaining triple-A. George Osborne

:13:45.:13:47.

remaining triple-A. George Osborne remaining triple-A. George Osborne

:13:47.:13:48.

said it would be a disaster if said it would be a disaster if

:13:48.:13:49.

said it would be a disaster if Britain lost its triple-A credit

:13:49.:13:50.

Britain lost its triple-A credit Britain lost its triple-A credit

:13:50.:13:53.

rating, but today he shrugged it rating, but today he shrugged it

:13:53.:13:54.

rating, but today he shrugged it off. The credit rating is an

:13:54.:13:55.

off. The credit rating is an off. The credit rating is an

:13:55.:13:56.

important benchmark for any country, important benchmark for any country,

:13:56.:13:59.

but this Government's economic but this Government's economic

:13:59.:14:00.

but this Government's economic but this Government's economic

:14:00.:14:02.

policy is tested day in and day out policy is tested day in and day out

:14:02.:14:03.

policy is tested day in and day out policy is tested day in and day out

:14:03.:14:04.

in the markets. It is not been in the markets. It is not been

:14:05.:14:05.

in the markets. It is not been found wanting today. For the

:14:05.:14:06.

found wanting today. For the found wanting today. For the

:14:07.:14:09.

opposition, it was a bit more opposition, it was a bit more

:14:09.:14:11.

opposition, it was a bit more serious than that. The downgrading

:14:11.:14:13.

serious than that. The downgrading serious than that. The downgrading

:14:13.:14:15.

of Britain's credit rating is, in of Britain's credit rating is, in

:14:15.:14:17.

of Britain's credit rating is, in this Chancellor's own words, a

:14:17.:14:18.

this Chancellor's own words, a humiliation for this Government.

:14:19.:14:20.

humiliation for this Government. humiliation for this Government.

:14:20.:14:21.

humiliation for this Government. Let me remind the House what he

:14:21.:14:22.

Let me remind the House what he Let me remind the House what he

:14:22.:14:23.

promised at the general election. promised at the general election.

:14:23.:14:25.

promised at the general election. He said the British people will

:14:25.:14:27.

He said the British people will have transparent benchmarks against

:14:27.:14:28.

have transparent benchmarks against have transparent benchmarks against

:14:28.:14:30.

which they can judge the economic which they can judge the economic

:14:30.:14:31.

which they can judge the economic success or failure of the next

:14:31.:14:33.

success or failure of the next success or failure of the next

:14:33.:14:35.

Government. Number one we will Government. Number one we will

:14:35.:14:39.

safeguard Britain's credit rating. safeguard Britain's credit rating.

:14:39.:14:41.

safeguard Britain's credit rating. The UK borrows money by issuing

:14:41.:14:43.

The UK borrows money by issuing The UK borrows money by issuing

:14:43.:14:44.

IOUs called bonds. These pay a IOUs called bonds. These pay a

:14:44.:14:45.

IOUs called bonds. These pay a fixed interest rate, but they are

:14:45.:14:46.

fixed interest rate, but they are fixed interest rate, but they are

:14:46.:14:46.

fixed interest rate, but they are bought and sold on the market. That

:14:46.:14:48.

bought and sold on the market. That bought and sold on the market. That

:14:48.:14:49.

means if their price rise, the means if their price rise, the

:14:49.:14:50.

means if their price rise, the effective interest rate, the yield,

:14:50.:14:52.

effective interest rate, the yield, effective interest rate, the yield,

:14:52.:14:53.

falls. And by last summer, this falls. And by last summer, this

:14:53.:14:54.

falls. And by last summer, this falls. And by last summer, this

:14:54.:14:55.

rate had fallen to its lowest ever. rate had fallen to its lowest ever.

:14:56.:14:57.

rate had fallen to its lowest ever. rate had fallen to its lowest ever.

:14:57.:15:00.

But now, it is edging up again. And But now, it is edging up again. And

:15:00.:15:02.

But now, it is edging up again. And the downgrade was a recognition of

:15:02.:15:03.

the downgrade was a recognition of the downgrade was a recognition of

:15:03.:15:04.

what's driving that graph. Worries what's driving that graph. Worries

:15:04.:15:07.

what's driving that graph. Worries about low growth and high

:15:07.:15:08.

about low growth and high Government borrowing. What the

:15:08.:15:10.

Government borrowing. What the Government borrowing. What the

:15:10.:15:10.

gloomiest economists fear is a gloomiest economists fear is a

:15:11.:15:12.

gloomiest economists fear is a spiral, like this. Bonds fall in

:15:12.:15:14.

spiral, like this. Bonds fall in spiral, like this. Bonds fall in

:15:14.:15:15.

spiral, like this. Bonds fall in value, banks, which hold a lot of

:15:15.:15:17.

value, banks, which hold a lot of value, banks, which hold a lot of

:15:17.:15:17.

bonds sudden lie have solvency bonds sudden lie have solvency

:15:18.:15:19.

bonds sudden lie have solvency problems and the Government --

:15:19.:15:20.

problems and the Government -- problems and the Government --

:15:20.:15:21.

suddenly have solvency problems and suddenly have solvency problems and

:15:21.:15:22.

suddenly have solvency problems and suddenly have solvency problems and

:15:22.:15:23.

the Government has to prop them up. the Government has to prop them up.

:15:23.:15:24.

the Government has to prop them up. the Government has to prop them up.

:15:24.:15:24.

The Bank of England prints a lot The Bank of England prints a lot

:15:24.:15:25.

The Bank of England prints a lot The Bank of England prints a lot

:15:25.:15:26.

more money to keep the value afloat, more money to keep the value afloat,

:15:26.:15:27.

more money to keep the value afloat, that depresses the value of the

:15:27.:15:28.

that depresses the value of the that depresses the value of the

:15:28.:15:29.

pound, which, in turn, means people pound, which, in turn, means people

:15:29.:15:31.

pound, which, in turn, means people don't want so many British bonds,

:15:31.:15:32.

don't want so many British bonds, don't want so many British bonds,

:15:32.:15:34.

don't want so many British bonds, and the value of them falls again.

:15:34.:15:37.

and the value of them falls again. and the value of them falls again.

:15:37.:15:37.

and the value of them falls again. The UK banks are forced to hold

:15:37.:15:38.

The UK banks are forced to hold The UK banks are forced to hold

:15:38.:15:40.

large amounts of Government bonds large amounts of Government bonds

:15:40.:15:41.

large amounts of Government bonds by regulation. That means if there

:15:42.:15:43.

by regulation. That means if there by regulation. That means if there

:15:43.:15:44.

were only fairly small falls in were only fairly small falls in

:15:44.:15:45.

were only fairly small falls in Government bond prices the banks

:15:45.:15:46.

Government bond prices the banks Government bond prices the banks

:15:46.:15:47.

would take large losses. The Bank would take large losses. The Bank

:15:47.:15:49.

would take large losses. The Bank of England estimates that UK banks

:15:49.:15:51.

of England estimates that UK banks of England estimates that UK banks

:15:51.:15:53.

are already �60 billion light. That are already �60 billion light. That

:15:53.:15:54.

are already �60 billion light. That are already �60 billion light. That

:15:54.:15:55.

is they hold too little capital, to is they hold too little capital, to

:15:55.:15:56.

is they hold too little capital, to the tune of �60 billion. Further

:15:56.:15:57.

the tune of �60 billion. Further the tune of �60 billion. Further

:15:57.:15:58.

the tune of �60 billion. Further losses could tip them over the edge

:15:58.:16:00.

losses could tip them over the edge losses could tip them over the edge

:16:00.:16:01.

losses could tip them over the edge and we could see banks going under.

:16:01.:16:02.

and we could see banks going under. and we could see banks going under.

:16:03.:16:03.

George Osborne's problem, as he George Osborne's problem, as he

:16:03.:16:04.

George Osborne's problem, as he tours British factories, is the

:16:04.:16:05.

tours British factories, is the tours British factories, is the

:16:05.:16:06.

growth he expected hasn't happened. growth he expected hasn't happened.

:16:06.:16:07.

growth he expected hasn't happened. The Conservatives would like to cut

:16:07.:16:08.

The Conservatives would like to cut The Conservatives would like to cut

:16:08.:16:09.

taxes, but can't, because of the taxes, but can't, because of the

:16:09.:16:10.

taxes, but can't, because of the taxes, but can't, because of the

:16:10.:16:11.

need to get the deficit down. They need to get the deficit down. They

:16:12.:16:13.

need to get the deficit down. They would like to shred employment law,

:16:13.:16:14.

would like to shred employment law, would like to shred employment law,

:16:14.:16:17.

would like to shred employment law, but the Lib Dems won't let them.

:16:17.:16:19.

but the Lib Dems won't let them. but the Lib Dems won't let them.

:16:19.:16:21.

And economists, once influential in And economists, once influential in

:16:21.:16:22.

And economists, once influential in the design of deficit reduction,

:16:22.:16:24.

the design of deficit reduction, the design of deficit reduction,

:16:24.:16:26.

are starting to say things like...I are starting to say things like...I

:16:26.:16:27.

are starting to say things like...I Think we are seeing disorientation

:16:27.:16:29.

Think we are seeing disorientation Think we are seeing disorientation

:16:29.:16:30.

Think we are seeing disorientation all over the place. The Bank of

:16:30.:16:30.

all over the place. The Bank of all over the place. The Bank of

:16:30.:16:31.

England is talking about money England is talking about money

:16:31.:16:32.

England is talking about money printing at a time when inflation

:16:32.:16:33.

printing at a time when inflation printing at a time when inflation

:16:33.:16:33.

printing at a time when inflation is high. We are seeing in respect

:16:33.:16:34.

is high. We are seeing in respect is high. We are seeing in respect

:16:34.:16:36.

of the banking regulation, the of the banking regulation, the

:16:36.:16:37.

of the banking regulation, the unwinding and delaying of many of

:16:37.:16:38.

unwinding and delaying of many of unwinding and delaying of many of

:16:38.:16:39.

the capital increases which they the capital increases which they

:16:39.:16:40.

the capital increases which they the capital increases which they

:16:40.:16:41.

proposed had to be coming in quite proposed had to be coming in quite

:16:41.:16:44.

proposed had to be coming in quite quickly. At the Treasury we have

:16:44.:16:46.

quickly. At the Treasury we have quickly. At the Treasury we have

:16:46.:16:48.

seen that their tax cuts were seen that their tax cuts were

:16:49.:16:49.

seen that their tax cuts were unwound in the last omnishambles

:16:49.:16:51.

unwound in the last omnishambles unwound in the last omnishambles

:16:51.:16:52.

unwound in the last omnishambles budget in 2012 they don't know how

:16:52.:16:53.

budget in 2012 they don't know how budget in 2012 they don't know how

:16:53.:16:54.

budget in 2012 they don't know how budget in 2012 they don't know how

:16:54.:16:55.

to do -- what to do any more. It is to do -- what to do any more. It is

:16:55.:16:56.

to do -- what to do any more. It is to do -- what to do any more. It is

:16:56.:16:57.

policy panic all over the place. policy panic all over the place.

:16:57.:16:58.

policy panic all over the place. until now arguments over growth

:16:58.:17:00.

until now arguments over growth until now arguments over growth

:17:00.:17:02.

strategy have divided the coalition strategy have divided the coalition

:17:02.:17:02.

strategy have divided the coalition along party lines. Vincent Cable

:17:02.:17:03.

along party lines. Vincent Cable along party lines. Vincent Cable

:17:03.:17:04.

saying famously that we don't have saying famously that we don't have

:17:04.:17:06.

saying famously that we don't have a growth strategy. Now with the

:17:06.:17:07.

a growth strategy. Now with the a growth strategy. Now with the

:17:07.:17:08.

a growth strategy. Now with the lost of the triple-A, it is the

:17:08.:17:09.

lost of the triple-A, it is the Conservative Party itself looking

:17:09.:17:10.

Conservative Party itself looking Conservative Party itself looking

:17:10.:17:11.

Conservative Party itself looking divided. In the end when you look

:17:12.:17:13.

divided. In the end when you look divided. In the end when you look

:17:13.:17:15.

at the 2012 budget figure, three- at the 2012 budget figure, three-

:17:15.:17:17.

at the 2012 budget figure, three- quarters of spending is education,

:17:17.:17:18.

quarters of spending is education, quarters of spending is education,

:17:18.:17:19.

health and welfare interest. We are health and welfare interest. We are

:17:19.:17:20.

health and welfare interest. We are already taking on the debt bought

:17:20.:17:20.

already taking on the debt bought already taking on the debt bought

:17:21.:17:21.

already taking on the debt bought by the Bank of England, if we are

:17:21.:17:22.

by the Bank of England, if we are by the Bank of England, if we are

:17:22.:17:25.

seriously going to cut spending and seriously going to cut spending and

:17:25.:17:26.

seriously going to cut spending and live within our means, eventually

:17:26.:17:27.

live within our means, eventually welfare, health and education

:17:28.:17:28.

welfare, health and education welfare, health and education

:17:28.:17:30.

spending will have to be reduced. spending will have to be reduced.

:17:30.:17:31.

spending will have to be reduced. Before the budget there is the

:17:31.:17:32.

Before the budget there is the Eastleigh by-election. If the

:17:32.:17:33.

Eastleigh by-election. If the Eastleigh by-election. If the

:17:33.:17:35.

Conservatives lose that, on top of Conservatives lose that, on top of

:17:35.:17:37.

the triple-A, those habitually the triple-A, those habitually

:17:37.:17:39.

the triple-A, those habitually critical of the Chancellor see

:17:39.:17:40.

critical of the Chancellor see critical of the Chancellor see

:17:40.:17:43.

pressurising further. I know of at pressurising further. I know of at

:17:43.:17:44.

least four separate leadership least four separate leadership

:17:44.:17:45.

least four separate leadership challenges that have been putting

:17:45.:17:47.

challenges that have been putting challenges that have been putting

:17:47.:17:49.

together the funding. There is huge together the funding. There is huge

:17:49.:17:50.

together the funding. There is huge degrees of unrest in parliament. On

:17:50.:17:51.

degrees of unrest in parliament. On degrees of unrest in parliament. On

:17:51.:17:54.

degrees of unrest in parliament. On the one hand the impact of losing

:17:54.:17:57.

the one hand the impact of losing the triple-A has concentrated

:17:57.:17:59.

the triple-A has concentrated conventional opinion. Conventional

:17:59.:18:00.

conventional opinion. Conventional conventional opinion. Conventional

:18:00.:18:01.

Tories think George Osborne hasn't Tories think George Osborne hasn't

:18:01.:18:02.

Tories think George Osborne hasn't cut the public sector enough, we

:18:02.:18:03.

cut the public sector enough, we cut the public sector enough, we

:18:03.:18:03.

cut the public sector enough, we need to do far more and pump it

:18:04.:18:05.

need to do far more and pump it need to do far more and pump it

:18:05.:18:06.

into the private sector. But into the private sector. But

:18:06.:18:07.

into the private sector. But thinking Tories are beginning to

:18:07.:18:07.

thinking Tories are beginning to thinking Tories are beginning to

:18:07.:18:09.

thinking Tories are beginning to wake up and realise that the old

:18:10.:18:11.

wake up and realise that the old wake up and realise that the old

:18:11.:18:13.

1980s diagnosis doesn't produce the 1980s diagnosis doesn't produce the

:18:13.:18:14.

1980s diagnosis doesn't produce the right medicine. After today what's

:18:14.:18:15.

right medicine. After today what's right medicine. After today what's

:18:15.:18:17.

obvious is how little pressure the obvious is how little pressure the

:18:17.:18:18.

obvious is how little pressure the Chancellor feels under from Labour,

:18:18.:18:19.

Chancellor feels under from Labour, Chancellor feels under from Labour,

:18:19.:18:20.

but how much pressure he feels but how much pressure he feels

:18:20.:18:21.

but how much pressure he feels under from his own party. Because

:18:21.:18:23.

under from his own party. Because under from his own party. Because

:18:23.:18:24.

if austerity isn't working, it if austerity isn't working, it

:18:24.:18:25.

if austerity isn't working, it either has to be toughened or

:18:25.:18:28.

abandoned. abandoned.

:18:28.:18:30.

abandoned. That's effectively what the ratings

:18:30.:18:34.

That's effectively what the ratings That's effectively what the ratings

:18:34.:18:37.

agencies are worried about. We have agencies are worried about. We have

:18:37.:18:38.

agencies are worried about. We have the Exchequer secretary to the

:18:38.:18:39.

the Exchequer secretary to the the Exchequer secretary to the

:18:39.:18:39.

secretary. There is nothing like secretary. There is nothing like

:18:40.:18:41.

secretary. There is nothing like being quoted back at yourself, is

:18:41.:18:43.

being quoted back at yourself, is being quoted back at yourself, is

:18:43.:18:44.

there. George Osborne then, the there. George Osborne then, the

:18:44.:18:45.

humiliating possibility of Britain humiliating possibility of Britain

:18:45.:18:47.

losing its international credit losing its international credit

:18:47.:18:49.

losing its international credit losing its international credit

:18:49.:18:54.

rating. Are we humiliated, or is he rating. Are we humiliated, or is he

:18:54.:18:55.

rating. Are we humiliated, or is he wrong? It is disappointing.It was

:18:55.:18:56.

wrong? It is disappointing.It was wrong? It is disappointing.It was

:18:56.:18:58.

a key manifesto pledge? It is a key manifesto pledge? It is

:18:58.:18:59.

a key manifesto pledge? It is disappointing we lost the triple-A

:18:59.:19:00.

disappointing we lost the triple-A disappointing we lost the triple-A

:19:00.:19:01.

disappointing we lost the triple-A rating. We have to bear in mind

:19:01.:19:02.

rating. We have to bear in mind rating. We have to bear in mind

:19:02.:19:04.

that the credit rating is an that the credit rating is an

:19:04.:19:05.

important benchmark, but one important benchmark, but one

:19:05.:19:07.

important benchmark, but one benchmark as to our international

:19:07.:19:07.

benchmark as to our international credibility. Of greater

:19:07.:19:09.

credibility. Of greater credibility. Of greater

:19:09.:19:09.

significance is the fact that every significance is the fact that every

:19:09.:19:10.

significance is the fact that every significance is the fact that every

:19:10.:19:12.

day there is a price for our bond day there is a price for our bond

:19:12.:19:13.

day there is a price for our bond yields and they remain very close

:19:13.:19:16.

yields and they remain very close yields and they remain very close

:19:16.:19:17.

yields and they remain very close to record lows It was a key pledge

:19:17.:19:18.

to record lows It was a key pledge to record lows It was a key pledge

:19:18.:19:20.

of our manifesto, we will safeguard of our manifesto, we will safeguard

:19:20.:19:21.

of our manifesto, we will safeguard Britain's credit rating with a

:19:21.:19:22.

Britain's credit rating with a Britain's credit rating with a

:19:22.:19:24.

credible plan. That is broken? credible plan. That is broken?

:19:24.:19:24.

credible plan. That is broken? credible plan. That is broken?

:19:24.:19:26.

if you look. We have a credible if you look. We have a credible

:19:26.:19:27.

if you look. We have a credible plan, and the fact that is

:19:27.:19:29.

plan, and the fact that is international markets still

:19:29.:19:29.

international markets still international markets still

:19:29.:19:30.

international markets still consider the UK to have a credible

:19:30.:19:31.

consider the UK to have a credible consider the UK to have a credible

:19:31.:19:33.

consider the UK to have a credible plan. It is going to plan?This is

:19:33.:19:34.

plan. It is going to plan?This is plan. It is going to plan?This is

:19:34.:19:35.

a disappointment, we are not a disappointment, we are not

:19:35.:19:37.

a disappointment, we are not dismissing it, it is an important

:19:37.:19:38.

dismissing it, it is an important dismissing it, it is an important

:19:38.:19:38.

benchmark. Clearly it is much benchmark. Clearly it is much

:19:38.:19:39.

benchmark. Clearly it is much better to have a triple-A rating

:19:39.:19:40.

better to have a triple-A rating better to have a triple-A rating

:19:40.:19:41.

better to have a triple-A rating than not. What went wrong?If you

:19:41.:19:42.

than not. What went wrong?If you than not. What went wrong?If you

:19:42.:19:44.

look at the explanation that look at the explanation that

:19:44.:19:45.

look at the explanation that Moody's have set out, their view

:19:45.:19:46.

Moody's have set out, their view Moody's have set out, their view

:19:46.:19:47.

Moody's have set out, their view that growth over the next few years

:19:47.:19:49.

that growth over the next few years that growth over the next few years

:19:49.:19:53.

will be sluggish, and in those will be sluggish, and in those

:19:53.:19:54.

will be sluggish, and in those circumstances that's why they have

:19:54.:19:55.

circumstances that's why they have circumstances that's why they have

:19:55.:19:57.

said that. What's gone wrong?The said that. What's gone wrong?The

:19:57.:19:58.

said that. What's gone wrong?The reason growth will be sluggish over

:19:58.:19:59.

reason growth will be sluggish over reason growth will be sluggish over

:19:59.:20:00.

reason growth will be sluggish over the next few years not because we

:20:00.:20:01.

the next few years not because we the next few years not because we

:20:01.:20:02.

have taken measures to deal with have taken measures to deal with

:20:02.:20:03.

have taken measures to deal with the deficit. Moody's are clear that

:20:03.:20:05.

the deficit. Moody's are clear that the deficit. Moody's are clear that

:20:05.:20:05.

the deficit. Moody's are clear that but for the fact we have taken

:20:06.:20:07.

but for the fact we have taken but for the fact we have taken

:20:07.:20:08.

but for the fact we have taken those measures we would be in a

:20:08.:20:08.

those measures we would be in a those measures we would be in a

:20:08.:20:09.

those measures we would be in a worse situation. It is to do with

:20:09.:20:10.

worse situation. It is to do with the international situation,

:20:10.:20:13.

the international situation, eurozone crisis, commodity crisis.

:20:13.:20:14.

eurozone crisis, commodity crisis. eurozone crisis, commodity crisis.

:20:14.:20:14.

It wasn't your plan, the It wasn't your plan, the

:20:14.:20:16.

It wasn't your plan, the Government's plan at all. The

:20:16.:20:17.

Government's plan at all. The Government's plan has gone

:20:17.:20:17.

Government's plan has gone Government's plan has gone

:20:17.:20:20.

according to plan and nothing will according to plan and nothing will

:20:20.:20:22.

change? The circumstances in which change? The circumstances in which

:20:22.:20:23.

change? The circumstances in which change? The circumstances in which

:20:23.:20:24.

we are in are clearly much worse we are in are clearly much worse

:20:24.:20:26.

than what independent forecasters than what independent forecasters

:20:26.:20:26.

than what independent forecasters than what independent forecasters

:20:26.:20:27.

had predicted in 2010. That is why had predicted in 2010. That is why

:20:27.:20:29.

had predicted in 2010. That is why had predicted in 2010. That is why

:20:29.:20:29.

had predicted in 2010. That is why the likes of the UK, as well as the

:20:30.:20:31.

the likes of the UK, as well as the the likes of the UK, as well as the

:20:31.:20:32.

US and France, have lost their US and France, have lost their

:20:32.:20:34.

US and France, have lost their triple-A status. Debt is going up.

:20:34.:20:35.

triple-A status. Debt is going up. triple-A status. Debt is going up.

:20:35.:20:36.

Not many people realise that. Debt Not many people realise that. Debt

:20:36.:20:37.

Not many people realise that. Debt Not many people realise that. Debt

:20:37.:20:40.

is going up, not set to peak until is going up, not set to peak until

:20:40.:20:41.

is going up, not set to peak until 2018. When you inherit a record

:20:41.:20:42.

2018. When you inherit a record 2018. When you inherit a record

:20:42.:20:43.

deficit, debt was always going to deficit, debt was always going to

:20:43.:20:44.

deficit, debt was always going to increase. What we have done is

:20:44.:20:45.

increase. What we have done is increase. What we have done is

:20:45.:20:46.

brought the deficit down. Which is brought the deficit down. Which is

:20:46.:20:48.

brought the deficit down. Which is brought the deficit down. Which is

:20:48.:20:49.

the year on year number. You are the year on year number. You are

:20:49.:20:50.

the year on year number. You are getting double the debt, you are

:20:50.:20:51.

getting double the debt, you are getting double the debt, you are

:20:51.:20:51.

getting double the debt, you are doubling the debt, how can you say

:20:51.:20:54.

doubling the debt, how can you say doubling the debt, how can you say

:20:54.:20:54.

doubling the debt, how can you say that is a credible plan? Debt is

:20:54.:20:56.

that is a credible plan? Debt is that is a credible plan? Debt is

:20:56.:20:57.

the accumulation of deficits, if the accumulation of deficits, if

:20:57.:20:58.

the accumulation of deficits, if you like, we inherited the largest

:20:58.:21:00.

you like, we inherited the largest you like, we inherited the largest

:21:00.:21:01.

you like, we inherited the largest deficit in our history, and we have

:21:02.:21:03.

deficit in our history, and we have deficit in our history, and we have

:21:03.:21:04.

deficit in our history, and we have reduced by 25% from the time that

:21:04.:21:05.

reduced by 25% from the time that reduced by 25% from the time that

:21:05.:21:05.

reduced by 25% from the time that we came into office. Now, we have

:21:05.:21:06.

we came into office. Now, we have we came into office. Now, we have

:21:06.:21:08.

done that by taking some difficult done that by taking some difficult

:21:08.:21:09.

decisions. There is clearly decisions. There is clearly

:21:09.:21:10.

decisions. There is clearly opposition to that. It is higher

:21:10.:21:11.

opposition to that. It is higher opposition to that. It is higher

:21:11.:21:11.

opposition to that. It is higher than last year. It is higher than

:21:11.:21:12.

than last year. It is higher than than last year. It is higher than

:21:12.:21:13.

last year? We don't have the last year? We don't have the

:21:14.:21:15.

last year? We don't have the deficit numbers yet for this year.

:21:15.:21:17.

deficit numbers yet for this year. deficit numbers yet for this year.

:21:17.:21:17.

The last time the independent The last time the independent

:21:17.:21:18.

The last time the independent Office of Budget Responsibility set

:21:18.:21:19.

Office of Budget Responsibility set Office of Budget Responsibility set

:21:19.:21:20.

Office of Budget Responsibility set out a comment it was lower. It is

:21:20.:21:21.

out a comment it was lower. It is out a comment it was lower. It is

:21:21.:21:23.

not going in the right direction, not going in the right direction,

:21:23.:21:24.

not going in the right direction, not going in the right direction,

:21:24.:21:25.

is it. What happens now? Is it is it. What happens now? Is it

:21:25.:21:26.

is it. What happens now? Is it faster cuts? What is important, and

:21:26.:21:27.

faster cuts? What is important, and faster cuts? What is important, and

:21:27.:21:28.

faster cuts? What is important, and I'm not going to tell what you's in

:21:28.:21:29.

I'm not going to tell what you's in I'm not going to tell what you's in

:21:30.:21:30.

I'm not going to tell what you's in the budget in three weeks or so

:21:30.:21:31.

the budget in three weeks or so the budget in three weeks or so

:21:31.:21:33.

the budget in three weeks or so time. What is very important is the

:21:33.:21:34.

time. What is very important is the Government doesn't abandon dealing

:21:34.:21:36.

Government doesn't abandon dealing Government doesn't abandon dealing

:21:36.:21:37.

with our deficit. We heard today, with our deficit. We heard today,

:21:37.:21:38.

with our deficit. We heard today, with our deficit. We heard today,

:21:38.:21:39.

in the House of Commons, Ed Balls in the House of Commons, Ed Balls

:21:39.:21:40.

in the House of Commons, Ed Balls essentially make an argument, we

:21:40.:21:41.

essentially make an argument, we essentially make an argument, we

:21:41.:21:42.

shouldn't worry about it. I'm not shouldn't worry about it. I'm not

:21:42.:21:45.

shouldn't worry about it. I'm not talking about Ed Balls I'm talking

:21:45.:21:46.

talking about Ed Balls I'm talking talking about Ed Balls I'm talking

:21:46.:21:46.

about you. It's really important about you. It's really important

:21:46.:21:47.

about you. It's really important about you. It's really important

:21:47.:21:48.

because we have a choice as a because we have a choice as a

:21:48.:21:49.

because we have a choice as a because we have a choice as a

:21:49.:21:49.

country. Do we try to deal with the country. Do we try to deal with the

:21:49.:21:50.

country. Do we try to deal with the country. Do we try to deal with the

:21:50.:21:51.

deficit? Do we try to get the deficit? Do we try to get the

:21:51.:21:52.

deficit? Do we try to get the public finances back in order? Do

:21:52.:21:53.

public finances back in order? Do public finances back in order? Do

:21:53.:21:54.

public finances back in order? Do we try to deal with some of the

:21:54.:21:55.

we try to deal with some of the we try to deal with some of the

:21:55.:21:56.

long-term issues? Or do we ignore long-term issues? Or do we ignore

:21:56.:21:57.

long-term issues? Or do we ignore long-term issues? Or do we ignore

:21:57.:21:58.

it and say let's not borrow about it and say let's not borrow about

:21:58.:21:59.

it and say let's not borrow about it and say let's not borrow about

:21:59.:22:01.

it and borrow our way out. It is it and borrow our way out. It is

:22:01.:22:03.

it and borrow our way out. It is the alternative, that is what Ed

:22:03.:22:04.

the alternative, that is what Ed the alternative, that is what Ed

:22:04.:22:05.

Balls is advocating. No going Balls is advocating. No going

:22:05.:22:06.

Balls is advocating. No going faster and making greater tax cuts

:22:06.:22:08.

faster and making greater tax cuts faster and making greater tax cuts

:22:08.:22:09.

faster and making greater tax cuts faster and making greater tax cuts

:22:09.:22:10.

s that on the cards now? A lot of s that on the cards now? A lot of

:22:10.:22:11.

s that on the cards now? A lot of s that on the cards now? A lot of

:22:11.:22:12.

your party would like to see that? your party would like to see that?

:22:12.:22:13.

your party would like to see that? your party would like to see that?

:22:13.:22:14.

I won't set out items in the budget I won't set out items in the budget

:22:14.:22:15.

I won't set out items in the budget which will be announced in three

:22:15.:22:16.

which will be announced in three which will be announced in three

:22:16.:22:18.

weeks time. You must be considering weeks time. You must be considering

:22:18.:22:19.

weeks time. You must be considering it, right? The important thing is

:22:19.:22:20.

it, right? The important thing is it, right? The important thing is

:22:20.:22:22.

it, right? The important thing is as a Government we focus on dealing

:22:22.:22:23.

as a Government we focus on dealing as a Government we focus on dealing

:22:23.:22:25.

with the public finances that we with the public finances that we

:22:25.:22:26.

with the public finances that we with the public finances that we

:22:26.:22:27.

stick to a plan. Are you stick to stick to a plan. Are you stick to

:22:27.:22:28.

stick to a plan. Are you stick to stick to a plan. Are you stick to

:22:28.:22:29.

go plan that has lost us the go plan that has lost us the

:22:29.:22:30.

go plan that has lost us the triple-A rating. That is what

:22:30.:22:31.

triple-A rating. That is what triple-A rating. That is what

:22:31.:22:32.

people are trying to understand. Is people are trying to understand. Is

:22:32.:22:33.

people are trying to understand. Is this the same plan you will

:22:33.:22:34.

this the same plan you will this the same plan you will

:22:34.:22:36.

continue with, which is losing us continue with, which is losing us

:22:36.:22:37.

continue with, which is losing us what you called "credibility"?

:22:37.:22:38.

what you called "credibility"? what you called "credibility"?

:22:38.:22:39.

what you called "credibility"? moody as made very clear in their

:22:39.:22:40.

moody as made very clear in their moody as made very clear in their

:22:40.:22:41.

statement on Friday, if it wasn't statement on Friday, if it wasn't

:22:41.:22:42.

statement on Friday, if it wasn't for the political will that this

:22:42.:22:44.

for the political will that this Government is demonstrating, our

:22:44.:22:45.

Government is demonstrating, our Government is demonstrating, our

:22:45.:22:47.

determination to get to grips with determination to get to grips with

:22:47.:22:50.

historically very, very high-def historically very, very high-def

:22:50.:22:52.

historically very, very high-def sits, then the prospects for our,

:22:53.:22:54.

sits, then the prospects for our, sits, then the prospects for our,

:22:54.:22:56.

for our credit rating and our for our credit rating and our

:22:56.:22:57.

market credibility, more market credibility, more

:22:57.:22:58.

market credibility, more importantly, would be much worse.

:22:58.:22:59.

importantly, would be much worse. importantly, would be much worse.

:22:59.:23:00.

We would see interest rates rising, We would see interest rates rising,

:23:00.:23:01.

We would see interest rates rising, We would see interest rates rising,

:23:01.:23:02.

we would see that having an impact we would see that having an impact

:23:02.:23:04.

on households with mortgages, on households with mortgages,

:23:04.:23:04.

on households with mortgages, businesses seeking finance. That is

:23:04.:23:05.

businesses seeking finance. That is businesses seeking finance. That is

:23:05.:23:06.

businesses seeking finance. That is a risk that we are not prepared to

:23:06.:23:07.

a risk that we are not prepared to a risk that we are not prepared to

:23:07.:23:08.

a risk that we are not prepared to take. I'm afraid that is what would

:23:08.:23:10.

take. I'm afraid that is what would take. I'm afraid that is what would

:23:10.:23:11.

take. I'm afraid that is what would happen if we took the Ed Balls

:23:11.:23:13.

happen if we took the Ed Balls happen if we took the Ed Balls

:23:13.:23:13.

approach and said borrow. I'm not approach and said borrow. I'm not

:23:13.:23:14.

approach and said borrow. I'm not talking about the Ed Balls approach,

:23:14.:23:16.

talking about the Ed Balls approach, talking about the Ed Balls approach,

:23:16.:23:17.

you have ignored my request. The you have ignored my request. The

:23:17.:23:18.

you have ignored my request. The alternative which many in the party

:23:18.:23:19.

alternative which many in the party alternative which many in the party

:23:19.:23:20.

are saying, and maybe elsewhere, is are saying, and maybe elsewhere, is

:23:20.:23:21.

are saying, and maybe elsewhere, is are saying, and maybe elsewhere, is

:23:21.:23:22.

that you could be doing this much that you could be doing this much

:23:22.:23:23.

that you could be doing this much quicker. If you could stop ring-

:23:23.:23:24.

quicker. If you could stop ring- quicker. If you could stop ring-

:23:24.:23:25.

fencing departments that you have fencing departments that you have

:23:25.:23:26.

fencing departments that you have made a big thing about ring-fencing

:23:26.:23:27.

made a big thing about ring-fencing made a big thing about ring-fencing

:23:27.:23:28.

made a big thing about ring-fencing and saying, we are not going to see

:23:28.:23:30.

and saying, we are not going to see and saying, we are not going to see

:23:30.:23:31.

and saying, we are not going to see any growth, until we do that?

:23:31.:23:32.

any growth, until we do that? any growth, until we do that?

:23:32.:23:33.

have taken some difficult decisions have taken some difficult decisions

:23:33.:23:35.

have taken some difficult decisions when it comes to public spending.

:23:35.:23:37.

when it comes to public spending. Departments are seeing reductions

:23:37.:23:38.

Departments are seeing reductions Departments are seeing reductions

:23:38.:23:39.

Departments are seeing reductions Departments are seeing reductions

:23:39.:23:39.

in a way that we have not seen in in a way that we have not seen in

:23:39.:23:41.

in a way that we have not seen in this country since the 1920s. We

:23:41.:23:42.

this country since the 1920s. We this country since the 1920s. We

:23:43.:23:44.

have no choice but to make have no choice but to make

:23:44.:23:45.

difficult decisions on public difficult decisions on public

:23:45.:23:46.

difficult decisions on public difficult decisions on public

:23:46.:23:47.

spending. It is right that we stick spending. It is right that we stick

:23:47.:23:49.

spending. It is right that we stick spending. It is right that we stick

:23:49.:23:51.

to that path. What I'm saying is to that path. What I'm saying is

:23:51.:23:52.

to that path. What I'm saying is that we really cannot abandon

:23:52.:23:54.

that we really cannot abandon that we really cannot abandon

:23:54.:23:54.

focusing on our deficit, dealing focusing on our deficit, dealing

:23:54.:23:55.

focusing on our deficit, dealing with the public finances and the

:23:55.:23:56.

with the public finances and the with the public finances and the

:23:56.:23:57.

with the public finances and the argument we heard in the House of

:23:57.:23:58.

argument we heard in the House of argument we heard in the House of

:23:58.:23:58.

argument we heard in the House of Commons today from Ed Balls is that

:23:58.:23:59.

Commons today from Ed Balls is that Commons today from Ed Balls is that

:23:59.:24:00.

Commons today from Ed Balls is that we abandon that. That would be a

:24:00.:24:01.

huge mistake. huge mistake.

:24:01.:24:02.

huge mistake. Thank you for coming in.

:24:02.:24:04.

Thank you for coming in. Thank you for coming in.

:24:04.:24:04.

Thank you for coming in. If you wanted to be really tabloid

:24:04.:24:06.

If you wanted to be really tabloid If you wanted to be really tabloid

:24:06.:24:07.

If you wanted to be really tabloid about the whole thing you could say

:24:07.:24:08.

about the whole thing you could say about the whole thing you could say

:24:08.:24:10.

the Italian elections have been Dom the Italian elections have been Dom

:24:10.:24:11.

the Italian elections have been Dom the Italian elections have been Dom

:24:11.:24:12.

it nad by a comedian and a it nad by a comedian and a

:24:12.:24:13.

it nad by a comedian and a billionare accused of having under-

:24:13.:24:14.

billionare accused of having under- billionare accused of having under-

:24:14.:24:15.

billionare accused of having under- age sex with dancer. If you didn't

:24:15.:24:16.

age sex with dancer. If you didn't age sex with dancer. If you didn't

:24:16.:24:17.

age sex with dancer. If you didn't want to be tabloid it looks like

:24:17.:24:19.

want to be tabloid it looks like want to be tabloid it looks like

:24:19.:24:20.

that from some angles. Silvio that from some angles. Silvio

:24:20.:24:22.

that from some angles. Silvio Berlusconi looks set to take the

:24:22.:24:23.

Berlusconi looks set to take the Berlusconi looks set to take the

:24:23.:24:25.

Upper House in the Senate elections, Upper House in the Senate elections,

:24:25.:24:26.

Upper House in the Senate elections, Upper House in the Senate elections,

:24:26.:24:26.

the lower house looks like it is the lower house looks like it is

:24:26.:24:27.

the lower house looks like it is going to Pier Luigi Bersani. What

:24:27.:24:28.

going to Pier Luigi Bersani. What going to Pier Luigi Bersani. What

:24:28.:24:29.

going to Pier Luigi Bersani. What does it mean for Italy or the rest

:24:30.:24:31.

does it mean for Italy or the rest does it mean for Italy or the rest

:24:31.:24:32.

of Europe. We're in Rome tonight. of Europe. We're in Rome tonight.

:24:32.:24:38.

of Europe. We're in Rome tonight. Take us through Italy first.

:24:38.:24:40.

Take us through Italy first. Take us through Italy first.

:24:40.:24:41.

Take us through Italy first. The last exit polls and all the

:24:41.:24:42.

The last exit polls and all the The last exit polls and all the

:24:42.:24:43.

votes counted show there is hardly votes counted show there is hardly

:24:43.:24:44.

votes counted show there is hardly votes counted show there is hardly

:24:44.:24:45.

a point in it between the centre a point in it between the centre

:24:45.:24:46.

a point in it between the centre left and right between the lower

:24:46.:24:47.

left and right between the lower left and right between the lower

:24:47.:24:48.

house of parliament and the Upper house of parliament and the Upper

:24:48.:24:49.

house of parliament and the Upper House of parliament. This is very

:24:49.:24:50.

House of parliament. This is very House of parliament. This is very

:24:50.:24:52.

worrying for the Italians and the worrying for the Italians and the

:24:52.:24:54.

worrying for the Italians and the worrying for the Italians and the

:24:54.:24:55.

eurozone as a whole. Italy is the eurozone as a whole. Italy is the

:24:55.:24:57.

third-largest economy in the third-largest economy in the

:24:57.:24:58.

third-largest economy in the eurozone, what matters here matters

:24:58.:24:59.

eurozone, what matters here matters eurozone, what matters here matters

:24:59.:25:00.

outside. Italy is in deep, deep outside. Italy is in deep, deep

:25:00.:25:02.

outside. Italy is in deep, deep recession, the public debt is 120%

:25:02.:25:04.

recession, the public debt is 120% recession, the public debt is 120%

:25:04.:25:05.

of GDP. Italians and the of GDP. Italians and the

:25:05.:25:06.

international financial markets international financial markets

:25:06.:25:07.

international financial markets want reforms to improve the

:25:07.:25:08.

want reforms to improve the want reforms to improve the

:25:08.:25:10.

situation. If we have a hung situation. If we have a hung

:25:10.:25:11.

situation. If we have a hung parliament here, or some kind of

:25:11.:25:12.

parliament here, or some kind of fractious, uncomfortable coalition,

:25:12.:25:14.

fractious, uncomfortable coalition, fractious, uncomfortable coalition,

:25:14.:25:15.

that is unlikely to happen. There that is unlikely to happen. There

:25:15.:25:16.

that is unlikely to happen. There is even talk here tonight of

:25:16.:25:18.

is even talk here tonight of is even talk here tonight of

:25:18.:25:19.

possible fresh elections before too possible fresh elections before too

:25:19.:25:20.

possible fresh elections before too possible fresh elections before too

:25:20.:25:21.

long. To the outside viewer it is a long. To the outside viewer it is a

:25:21.:25:23.

long. To the outside viewer it is a bit like Dallas, isn't it? You

:25:23.:25:24.

bit like Dallas, isn't it? You think Berlusconi's finished and

:25:24.:25:25.

think Berlusconi's finished and think Berlusconi's finished and

:25:25.:25:27.

think Berlusconi's finished and gone away, and then up he pops, and

:25:27.:25:28.

gone away, and then up he pops, and gone away, and then up he pops, and

:25:28.:25:30.

gone away, and then up he pops, and it looks like he has done it again.

:25:30.:25:33.

it looks like he has done it again. it looks like he has done it again.

:25:33.:25:34.

How? This really has been an How? This really has been an

:25:34.:25:35.

How? This really has been an astonishing night for two men who

:25:35.:25:36.

astonishing night for two men who astonishing night for two men who

:25:36.:25:39.

really, not very long ago, were really, not very long ago, were

:25:39.:25:41.

really, not very long ago, were dismissed by much of the Italian

:25:41.:25:41.

dismissed by much of the Italian political establishment and

:25:41.:25:43.

political establishment and political establishment and

:25:43.:25:45.

international leaders as a joke. international leaders as a joke.

:25:45.:25:47.

international leaders as a joke. You mentioned earlier the Italian

:25:47.:25:49.

You mentioned earlier the Italian You mentioned earlier the Italian

:25:49.:25:50.

comedian and the five-star movement, comedian and the five-star movement,

:25:50.:25:51.

comedian and the five-star movement, comedian and the five-star movement,

:25:51.:25:52.

he has managed to suck up protest he has managed to suck up protest

:25:52.:25:54.

he has managed to suck up protest in Italy. People disgusted by the

:25:54.:25:55.

in Italy. People disgusted by the in Italy. People disgusted by the

:25:55.:25:55.

political status quo. He's now political status quo. He's now

:25:55.:25:56.

political status quo. He's now political status quo. He's now

:25:56.:25:59.

going to be able to pepper the going to be able to pepper the

:25:59.:26:00.

going to be able to pepper the Upper and Lower House of the

:26:00.:26:02.

Upper and Lower House of the Italian parliament with his

:26:02.:26:03.

Italian parliament with his political novices. They include

:26:03.:26:04.

political novices. They include housewives and the unemployed.

:26:04.:26:05.

housewives and the unemployed. housewives and the unemployed.

:26:05.:26:05.

housewives and the unemployed. There is no way of knowing how

:26:05.:26:07.

There is no way of knowing how There is no way of knowing how

:26:07.:26:09.

these people will act in parliament. these people will act in parliament.

:26:09.:26:10.

these people will act in parliament. Italy's most famous modern day

:26:10.:26:11.

Italy's most famous modern day politician, Silvio Berlusconi, back

:26:11.:26:13.

politician, Silvio Berlusconi, back politician, Silvio Berlusconi, back

:26:13.:26:15.

from the political dead. He was from the political dead. He was

:26:15.:26:16.

booted uncermoniously out of booted uncermoniously out of

:26:16.:26:19.

booted uncermoniously out of Government just 18 months ago. And

:26:19.:26:21.

Government just 18 months ago. And Government just 18 months ago. And

:26:21.:26:22.

opinion polls shows that most opinion polls shows that most

:26:22.:26:23.

opinion polls shows that most opinion polls shows that most

:26:23.:26:24.

Italians were happy to see him go, Italians were happy to see him go,

:26:24.:26:25.

Italians were happy to see him go, what a comeback in the election

:26:25.:26:27.

what a comeback in the election campaign, tirelessly appearing on

:26:27.:26:28.

campaign, tirelessly appearing on campaign, tirelessly appearing on

:26:28.:26:30.

campaign, tirelessly appearing on TV chat show after TV chat show.

:26:30.:26:31.

TV chat show after TV chat show. TV chat show after TV chat show.

:26:31.:26:32.

Not just on his "friendly "channel Not just on his "friendly "channel

:26:32.:26:33.

Not just on his "friendly "channel Not just on his "friendly "channel

:26:33.:26:34.

that is he owns as well. Repeating that is he owns as well. Repeating

:26:34.:26:35.

that is he owns as well. Repeating again and again his economic

:26:35.:26:37.

again and again his economic again and again his economic

:26:37.:26:39.

message. His promise that he will message. His promise that he will

:26:39.:26:40.

message. His promise that he will rid Italy of unpopular austerity

:26:40.:26:41.

rid Italy of unpopular austerity rid Italy of unpopular austerity

:26:41.:26:43.

taxes introduced over the last one- taxes introduced over the last one-

:26:43.:26:44.

taxes introduced over the last one- and-a-half years by Mario Monti's

:26:44.:26:46.

and-a-half years by Mario Monti's technocrat Government. And even,

:26:46.:26:47.

technocrat Government. And even, technocrat Government. And even,

:26:47.:26:49.

this is a real Berlusconi populist this is a real Berlusconi populist

:26:49.:26:49.

this is a real Berlusconi populist touch, promising to pay back

:26:49.:26:51.

touch, promising to pay back touch, promising to pay back

:26:51.:26:52.

touch, promising to pay back Italians in cash for what they paid

:26:52.:26:56.

Italians in cash for what they paid in those taxes already.

:26:56.:26:58.

in those taxes already. in those taxes already.

:26:58.:27:00.

Preposterous say his critics, but Preposterous say his critics, but

:27:00.:27:01.

Preposterous say his critics, but clearly millions of Italians have

:27:01.:27:04.

listened. listened.

:27:04.:27:05.

listened. Name Britain's most senior Catholic

:27:05.:27:06.

Name Britain's most senior Catholic Name Britain's most senior Catholic

:27:06.:27:08.

by the Vatican, and something by the Vatican, and something

:27:08.:27:09.

by the Vatican, and something rather less complimentry by a gay

:27:09.:27:11.

rather less complimentry by a gay rather less complimentry by a gay

:27:11.:27:12.

charity last year, Cardinal Keith charity last year, Cardinal Keith

:27:12.:27:13.

O'Brien brought forward his O'Brien brought forward his

:27:13.:27:14.

O'Brien brought forward his resignation today and said he

:27:14.:27:15.

resignation today and said he wouldn't be representing this

:27:15.:27:17.

wouldn't be representing this wouldn't be representing this

:27:17.:27:20.

country at the papal conclave next country at the papal conclave next

:27:20.:27:22.

country at the papal conclave next country at the papal conclave next

:27:22.:27:23.

month. The speed of events has been month. The speed of events has been

:27:23.:27:23.

month. The speed of events has been astonished. On Friday he said

:27:23.:27:24.

astonished. On Friday he said marriage should be considered

:27:24.:27:26.

marriage should be considered marriage should be considered

:27:26.:27:26.

within the priesthood, at the within the priesthood, at the

:27:27.:27:28.

within the priesthood, at the within the priesthood, at the

:27:28.:27:30.

weekend he was the centre of sexual weekend he was the centre of sexual

:27:30.:27:31.

weekend he was the centre of sexual allegations which he contests, by

:27:31.:27:32.

allegations which he contests, by allegations which he contests, by

:27:32.:27:34.

lunchtime he was gone today. What lunchtime he was gone today. What

:27:34.:27:35.

lunchtime he was gone today. What lunchtime he was gone today. What

:27:35.:27:36.

is going on in the Catholic Church? is going on in the Catholic Church?

:27:36.:27:37.

is going on in the Catholic Church? Cardinal O'Brien was due to retire

:27:37.:27:39.

Cardinal O'Brien was due to retire Cardinal O'Brien was due to retire

:27:39.:27:40.

Cardinal O'Brien was due to retire when he turned 75 next month. His

:27:40.:27:41.

when he turned 75 next month. His decision today leaves Britain

:27:41.:27:43.

decision today leaves Britain decision today leaves Britain

:27:43.:27:45.

without any vote in the imminent without any vote in the imminent

:27:45.:27:47.

without any vote in the imminent conclave to choose Pope Benedict's

:27:47.:27:48.

conclave to choose Pope Benedict's conclave to choose Pope Benedict's

:27:48.:27:50.

successor. The Cardinal was accused successor. The Cardinal was accused

:27:50.:27:52.

in yesterday's Observer of in yesterday's Observer of

:27:52.:27:52.

inappropriate behaviour towards inappropriate behaviour towards

:27:52.:27:54.

inappropriate behaviour towards inappropriate behaviour towards

:27:54.:27:56.

four priests in the 1980s. He says four priests in the 1980s. He says

:27:56.:27:57.

four priests in the 1980s. He says he contests the allegation, and is

:27:57.:27:58.

he contests the allegation, and is he contests the allegation, and is

:27:58.:28:00.

taking legal advice. He also used taking legal advice. He also used

:28:00.:28:02.

his resignation statement to his resignation statement to

:28:02.:28:04.

his resignation statement to apologise to all whom he had

:28:04.:28:06.

apologise to all whom he had apologise to all whom he had

:28:06.:28:07.

offended. Ordained as a priest in offended. Ordained as a priest in

:28:07.:28:09.

offended. Ordained as a priest in 1965, Keith O'Brien was pro-

:28:09.:28:11.

1965, Keith O'Brien was pro- 1965, Keith O'Brien was pro-

:28:11.:28:12.

claimeded a Cardinal by Pope John claimeded a Cardinal by Pope John

:28:12.:28:13.

claimeded a Cardinal by Pope John claimeded a Cardinal by Pope John

:28:13.:28:13.

Paul II in 2003. He has been, at Paul II in 2003. He has been, at

:28:13.:28:15.

Paul II in 2003. He has been, at times, a controversial figure, most

:28:15.:28:15.

times, a controversial figure, most times, a controversial figure, most

:28:15.:28:17.

recently with his opposition to the recently with his opposition to the

:28:17.:28:21.

Scottish Government's plans to Scottish Government's plans to

:28:21.:28:22.

legalise same-sex marriage. His legalise same-sex marriage. His

:28:22.:28:23.

legalise same-sex marriage. His resignation statement said the Pope

:28:23.:28:24.

resignation statement said the Pope resignation statement said the Pope

:28:24.:28:25.

would appoint someone to govern the would appoint someone to govern the

:28:25.:28:27.

would appoint someone to govern the would appoint someone to govern the

:28:27.:28:29.

arch dieies in his place until his arch dieies in his place until his

:28:29.:28:31.

arch dieies in his place until his arch dieies in his place until his

:28:31.:28:31.

sublg -- -- diocese in his place, sublg -- -- diocese in his place,

:28:31.:28:33.

sublg -- -- diocese in his place, until his successor was appointed.

:28:34.:28:35.

until his successor was appointed. until his successor was appointed.

:28:35.:28:36.

until his successor was appointed. We have with us our guest, a

:28:36.:28:37.

We have with us our guest, a We have with us our guest, a

:28:37.:28:39.

Catholic priest who writes for the Catholic Herald.

:28:39.:28:42.

Catholic Herald. Catholic Herald.

:28:42.:28:42.

Catholic Herald. What do you think happened here?

:28:42.:28:44.

What do you think happened here? What do you think happened here?

:28:44.:28:46.

think it's, the Vatican always think it's, the Vatican always

:28:46.:28:48.

think it's, the Vatican always speaks in a rather elaborate code.

:28:48.:28:49.

speaks in a rather elaborate code. speaks in a rather elaborate code.

:28:49.:28:50.

He handed in his resignation, the He handed in his resignation, the

:28:50.:28:51.

He handed in his resignation, the Pope requested him to resign.

:28:51.:28:53.

Pope requested him to resign. Pope requested him to resign.

:28:53.:28:54.

Pope actually asked him to resign? Pope actually asked him to resign?

:28:54.:28:55.

Pope actually asked him to resign? Pope actually asked him to resign?

:28:55.:28:56.

That is what we were told. When the That is what we were told. When the

:28:56.:28:56.

That is what we were told. When the That is what we were told. When the

:28:56.:28:57.

Pope asks you to resign, you don't Pope asks you to resign, you don't

:28:57.:28:59.

Pope asks you to resign, you don't Pope asks you to resign, you don't

:28:59.:28:59.

have a choice about that. The Pope have a choice about that. The Pope

:29:00.:29:00.

have a choice about that. The Pope have a choice about that. The Pope

:29:00.:29:01.

is a supreme power in the Catholic is a supreme power in the Catholic

:29:01.:29:02.

is a supreme power in the Catholic is a supreme power in the Catholic

:29:02.:29:03.

Church, when he speaks, you do what Church, when he speaks, you do what

:29:03.:29:05.

Church, when he speaks, you do what he says. He was, effectively sacked.

:29:05.:29:06.

he says. He was, effectively sacked. he says. He was, effectively sacked.

:29:06.:29:07.

he says. He was, effectively sacked. Why? Who knows, you would have to

:29:07.:29:09.

Why? Who knows, you would have to Why? Who knows, you would have to

:29:09.:29:10.

Why? Who knows, you would have to ask the Pope that. Not me, one of

:29:10.:29:11.

ask the Pope that. Not me, one of ask the Pope that. Not me, one of

:29:11.:29:12.

the humble foot soldiers of the the humble foot soldiers of the

:29:12.:29:13.

the humble foot soldiers of the Catholic Church. People make up

:29:13.:29:14.

Catholic Church. People make up Catholic Church. People make up

:29:14.:29:15.

Catholic Church. People make up their own mind about that. The Pope

:29:15.:29:16.

their own mind about that. The Pope their own mind about that. The Pope

:29:16.:29:17.

would have had his reasons for would have had his reasons for

:29:17.:29:18.

would have had his reasons for sacking him. Are you suggesting it

:29:18.:29:19.

sacking him. Are you suggesting it sacking him. Are you suggesting it

:29:19.:29:20.

sacking him. Are you suggesting it was on the back of the allegations

:29:20.:29:21.

was on the back of the allegations was on the back of the allegations

:29:21.:29:22.

was on the back of the allegations was on the back of the allegations

:29:22.:29:23.

at the weekend, or is it more to do at the weekend, or is it more to do

:29:23.:29:24.

at the weekend, or is it more to do at the weekend, or is it more to do

:29:24.:29:26.

with the dogma of what he thought with the dogma of what he thought

:29:26.:29:27.

with the dogma of what he thought or believed? I think to understand

:29:27.:29:28.

or believed? I think to understand or believed? I think to understand

:29:28.:29:29.

what has happened here one would what has happened here one would

:29:29.:29:30.

what has happened here one would what has happened here one would

:29:30.:29:31.

have to go back to the only other have to go back to the only other

:29:31.:29:32.

have to go back to the only other have to go back to the only other

:29:32.:29:34.

time the Pope has done this. When time the Pope has done this. When

:29:34.:29:38.

time the Pope has done this. When he condemned father Ma rien Golgado

:29:38.:29:39.

he condemned father Ma rien Golgado he condemned father Ma rien Golgado

:29:40.:29:41.

he condemned father Ma rien Golgado to a life of prayer and penance

:29:41.:29:44.

to a life of prayer and penance to a life of prayer and penance

:29:44.:29:45.

without due process. There is no without due process. There is no

:29:45.:29:46.

without due process. There is no due process here, he uses this

:29:46.:29:48.

due process here, he uses this due process here, he uses this

:29:48.:29:49.

power very rarely, he decided very power very rarely, he decided very

:29:49.:29:50.

power very rarely, he decided very swiftly to act. That is most

:29:50.:29:52.

swiftly to act. That is most swiftly to act. That is most

:29:52.:29:52.

unusual. It is very interesting. We unusual. It is very interesting. We

:29:52.:29:54.

unusual. It is very interesting. We unusual. It is very interesting. We

:29:54.:29:56.

are often being told we try to are often being told we try to

:29:56.:29:57.

are often being told we try to bring our own ideals of democracy

:29:57.:29:58.

bring our own ideals of democracy bring our own ideals of democracy

:29:59.:30:00.

and fairness to an institution that and fairness to an institution that

:30:00.:30:01.

and fairness to an institution that doesn't pretend to be particularly

:30:02.:30:03.

doesn't pretend to be particularly doesn't pretend to be particularly

:30:03.:30:06.

democratic. Does it seem to you democratic. Does it seem to you

:30:06.:30:08.

democratic. Does it seem to you democratic. Does it seem to you

:30:08.:30:10.

that this has been a very heavily that this has been a very heavily

:30:10.:30:15.

that this has been a very heavily butter ox advertised event here? --

:30:15.:30:17.

butter ox advertised event here? -- butter ox advertised event here? --

:30:17.:30:17.

b bureaucracyised here? I don't b bureaucracyised here? I don't

:30:17.:30:19.

b bureaucracyised here? I don't b bureaucracyised here? I don't

:30:19.:30:20.

think it is that, but a sudden think it is that, but a sudden

:30:20.:30:22.

think it is that, but a sudden death. As I understand it Cardinal

:30:22.:30:23.

death. As I understand it Cardinal death. As I understand it Cardinal

:30:23.:30:24.

Keith O'Brien had indicated he Keith O'Brien had indicated he

:30:24.:30:25.

Keith O'Brien had indicated he wanted to go because of ill-health.

:30:25.:30:26.

wanted to go because of ill-health. wanted to go because of ill-health.

:30:26.:30:27.

The thing that is rather different The thing that is rather different

:30:27.:30:28.

The thing that is rather different The thing that is rather different

:30:28.:30:29.

is in the way he wasn't allowed to is in the way he wasn't allowed to

:30:29.:30:39.
:30:39.:30:41.

is in the way he wasn't allowed to is in the way he wasn't allowed to

:30:41.:30:42.

stay there until the The next month stay there until the The next month

:30:42.:30:42.

stay there until the The next month stay there until the The next month

:30:42.:30:44.

stay there until the The next month and he was asked to go now. He has

:30:44.:30:48.

and he was asked to go now. He has and he was asked to go now. He has

:30:48.:30:50.

changed his mind on certain things? changed his mind on certain things?

:30:50.:30:51.

changed his mind on certain things? He has recently spoken about

:30:51.:30:53.

He has recently spoken about He has recently spoken about

:30:53.:30:55.

homosexuality in relation to gay homosexuality in relation to gay

:30:55.:30:55.

homosexuality in relation to gay marriage in very intemperate terms

:30:55.:30:57.

marriage in very intemperate terms marriage in very intemperate terms

:30:57.:30:59.

which quite shocked some people and which quite shocked some people and

:30:59.:31:00.

which quite shocked some people and hurt others. Looking back now it

:31:00.:31:01.

hurt others. Looking back now it hurt others. Looking back now it

:31:01.:31:02.

hurt others. Looking back now it seemed a rather unwise thing to do.

:31:02.:31:03.

seemed a rather unwise thing to do. seemed a rather unwise thing to do.

:31:04.:31:05.

seemed a rather unwise thing to do. Do you think he hardened that line

:31:05.:31:07.

Do you think he hardened that line Do you think he hardened that line

:31:07.:31:09.

in his position under the current in his position under the current

:31:09.:31:11.

in his position under the current in his position under the current

:31:11.:31:11.

Pope? He used to have a reputation Pope? He used to have a reputation

:31:11.:31:13.

Pope? He used to have a reputation Pope? He used to have a reputation

:31:13.:31:15.

as being a great liberal. How does as being a great liberal. How does

:31:15.:31:17.

as being a great liberal. How does that change within a priest, within

:31:17.:31:18.

that change within a priest, within that change within a priest, within

:31:18.:31:19.

that change within a priest, within a Cardinal? I don't know. I think

:31:19.:31:20.

a Cardinal? I don't know. I think a Cardinal? I don't know. I think

:31:21.:31:21.

a Cardinal? I don't know. I think we all try to be consistent if we

:31:21.:31:23.

we all try to be consistent if we we all try to be consistent if we

:31:23.:31:25.

are true to ourselves. But maybe are true to ourselves. But maybe

:31:25.:31:26.

are true to ourselves. But maybe are true to ourselves. But maybe

:31:26.:31:27.

the Cardinal got a bit carried away the Cardinal got a bit carried away

:31:27.:31:28.

the Cardinal got a bit carried away by his position. You know. The

:31:28.:31:30.

by his position. You know. The by his position. You know. The

:31:30.:31:31.

people around him. Who knows? people around him. Who knows?

:31:31.:31:32.

people around him. Who knows? was put under certain pressure,

:31:32.:31:34.

was put under certain pressure, was put under certain pressure,

:31:34.:31:35.

wasn't he. When he became Cardinal wasn't he. When he became Cardinal

:31:35.:31:37.

wasn't he. When he became Cardinal wasn't he. When he became Cardinal

:31:37.:31:38.

back in 2003, he had to swear an back in 2003, he had to swear an

:31:38.:31:39.

back in 2003, he had to swear an additional oath, which was very

:31:39.:31:39.

additional oath, which was very additional oath, which was very

:31:40.:31:40.

additional oath, which was very unusual, that he would stick to the

:31:40.:31:42.

unusual, that he would stick to the unusual, that he would stick to the

:31:42.:31:43.

teachings of the church. Because teachings of the church. Because

:31:43.:31:44.

teachings of the church. Because teachings of the church. Because

:31:44.:31:45.

they had seen him, up until then, they had seen him, up until then,

:31:45.:31:46.

they had seen him, up until then, they had seen him, up until then,

:31:46.:31:48.

as a liberal. Do you think the as a liberal. Do you think the

:31:48.:31:49.

as a liberal. Do you think the church needs to re-examine these

:31:49.:31:51.

church needs to re-examine these church needs to re-examine these

:31:51.:31:52.

issues. For example the whole issues. For example the whole

:31:52.:31:54.

issues. For example the whole question of celibacy? I think that

:31:54.:31:56.

question of celibacy? I think that question of celibacy? I think that

:31:56.:31:57.

question of celibacy? I think that there is an issue over celibacy. On

:31:57.:31:58.

there is an issue over celibacy. On there is an issue over celibacy. On

:31:58.:32:02.

there is an issue over celibacy. On the other hand, we have seen with

:32:02.:32:04.

the other hand, we have seen with the other hand, we have seen with

:32:04.:32:04.

some of the other scandals around some of the other scandals around

:32:04.:32:05.

some of the other scandals around some of the other scandals around

:32:05.:32:06.

at the moment, be it Lib Dems, or at the moment, be it Lib Dems, or

:32:07.:32:09.

at the moment, be it Lib Dems, or at the moment, be it Lib Dems, or

:32:09.:32:12.

things going on in the BBC or things going on in the BBC or

:32:12.:32:12.

things going on in the BBC or CheethamSchool of Music, that sex

:32:12.:32:14.

CheethamSchool of Music, that sex CheethamSchool of Music, that sex

:32:14.:32:15.

scandals are not only in the scandals are not only in the

:32:15.:32:16.

scandals are not only in the Catholic Church. I don't think

:32:16.:32:18.

Catholic Church. I don't think celibacy equals problems. However,

:32:18.:32:19.

celibacy equals problems. However, celibacy equals problems. However,

:32:19.:32:20.

celibacy is clearly something that celibacy is clearly something that

:32:20.:32:22.

celibacy is clearly something that is incredibly hard for many people.

:32:22.:32:22.

is incredibly hard for many people. is incredibly hard for many people.

:32:22.:32:24.

is incredibly hard for many people. One of the problems with it is that

:32:24.:32:26.

One of the problems with it is that One of the problems with it is that

:32:26.:32:28.

One of the problems with it is that the Catholic Church has lost a very

:32:28.:32:29.

the Catholic Church has lost a very the Catholic Church has lost a very

:32:29.:32:30.

the Catholic Church has lost a very lot of good priests who have left

:32:30.:32:31.

lot of good priests who have left lot of good priests who have left

:32:31.:32:32.

to get married. And priests are to get married. And priests are

:32:32.:32:34.

to get married. And priests are to get married. And priests are

:32:34.:32:34.

becoming a bit of a rare breed. becoming a bit of a rare breed.

:32:34.:32:36.

becoming a bit of a rare breed. becoming a bit of a rare breed.

:32:36.:32:38.

What about what is happening in the What about what is happening in the

:32:38.:32:38.

What about what is happening in the Vatican theself. We have seen

:32:38.:32:39.

Vatican theself. We have seen Vatican theself. We have seen

:32:39.:32:40.

several scandals at the moment, and several scandals at the moment, and

:32:40.:32:41.

several scandals at the moment, and several scandals at the moment, and

:32:41.:32:43.

of course we expect to be able to of course we expect to be able to

:32:43.:32:44.

of course we expect to be able to ask for transparency, and that has

:32:44.:32:44.

ask for transparency, and that has ask for transparency, and that has

:32:44.:32:46.

never been part of the currency, never been part of the currency,

:32:46.:32:47.

never been part of the currency, never been part of the currency,

:32:47.:32:49.

right? I think we have had too much right? I think we have had too much

:32:49.:32:50.

right? I think we have had too much transparency, in the sense that a

:32:50.:32:51.

transparency, in the sense that a transparency, in the sense that a

:32:51.:32:52.

whole load of things people would whole load of things people would

:32:53.:32:54.

whole load of things people would whole load of things people would

:32:54.:32:54.

have loved to have seen hidden and have loved to have seen hidden and

:32:54.:32:56.

have loved to have seen hidden and have loved to have seen hidden and

:32:56.:32:57.

remain hidden have come out in the remain hidden have come out in the

:32:57.:32:58.

remain hidden have come out in the wash. The bank, all these things,

:32:59.:32:59.

wash. The bank, all these things, wash. The bank, all these things,

:32:59.:33:01.

far too much information has come far too much information has come

:33:01.:33:04.

far too much information has come out. They are supposed to be

:33:04.:33:04.

out. They are supposed to be confidentiality clauses. It would

:33:05.:33:05.

confidentiality clauses. It would confidentiality clauses. It would

:33:05.:33:07.

confidentiality clauses. It would be better silent? I think so. What

:33:07.:33:09.

be better silent? I think so. What be better silent? I think so. What

:33:09.:33:10.

has happened is the Vatican has happened is the Vatican

:33:10.:33:11.

has happened is the Vatican bureaucracy is no longer fit for

:33:11.:33:13.

bureaucracy is no longer fit for bureaucracy is no longer fit for

:33:13.:33:13.

purpose. Most people recognise this. purpose. Most people recognise this.

:33:13.:33:14.

purpose. Most people recognise this. purpose. Most people recognise this.

:33:14.:33:15.

The first thing the new hope will The first thing the new hope will

:33:15.:33:16.

The first thing the new hope will The first thing the new hope will

:33:16.:33:21.

have to do is go in there and have to do is go in there and

:33:21.:33:24.

have to do is go in there and reform the Roman Couria. Do you

:33:24.:33:26.

reform the Roman Couria. Do you reform the Roman Couria. Do you

:33:26.:33:28.

want IRA forming Pope? Yes, Father want IRA forming Pope? Yes, Father

:33:28.:33:29.

want IRA forming Pope? Yes, Father want IRA forming Pope? Yes, Father

:33:29.:33:31.

Alexander has said that is one of Alexander has said that is one of

:33:31.:33:32.

Alexander has said that is one of the absolute priorities of the next

:33:32.:33:33.

the absolute priorities of the next the absolute priorities of the next

:33:33.:33:34.

papacy. That was the priority of papacy. That was the priority of

:33:34.:33:35.

the last one. the last one.

:33:36.:33:37.

the last one. the last one.

:33:37.:33:38.

Thank you very much. East calf is Thank you very much. East calf is

:33:38.:33:39.

Thank you very much. East calf is experiencing something of an en--

:33:39.:33:41.

experiencing something of an en-- experiencing something of an en--

:33:41.:33:43.

Africa is experiencing something of Africa is experiencing something of

:33:43.:33:45.

Africa is experiencing something of an energy revolution, two different

:33:45.:33:47.

an energy revolution, two different technologies are emerging. The

:33:47.:33:50.

technologies are emerging. The technologies are emerging. The

:33:50.:33:51.

biggest technology in Kenya is biggest technology in Kenya is

:33:51.:33:52.

biggest technology in Kenya is tapping huge reservoirs of steam as

:33:52.:33:56.

tapping huge reservoirs of steam as the country's massive geothermal

:33:56.:33:58.

the country's massive geothermal the country's massive geothermal

:33:58.:34:02.

resources are coming on stream. resources are coming on stream.

:34:02.:34:03.

resources are coming on stream. resources are coming on stream.

:34:03.:34:04.

Sales are soaring. We have been to Sales are soaring. We have been to

:34:04.:34:11.

Sales are soaring. We have been to Kenya to see the power surge.

:34:11.:34:15.

Kenya to see the power surge. Kenya to see the power surge.

:34:15.:34:16.

Kenya to see the power surge. The African Rift Valley. A split in

:34:16.:34:18.

The African Rift Valley. A split in The African Rift Valley. A split in

:34:18.:34:20.

the earth nearly 4,000 miles long. the earth nearly 4,000 miles long.

:34:20.:34:21.

the earth nearly 4,000 miles long. the earth nearly 4,000 miles long.

:34:21.:34:22.

The cradle of mankind and now the The cradle of mankind and now the

:34:22.:34:28.

The cradle of mankind and now the birth place of an energy revolution.

:34:28.:34:34.

birth place of an energy revolution. birth place of an energy revolution.

:34:34.:34:35.

birth place of an energy revolution. This is Kenya. A place where the

:34:35.:34:38.

This is Kenya. A place where the This is Kenya. A place where the

:34:38.:34:40.

land collapsed as the crust tore land collapsed as the crust tore

:34:40.:34:42.

land collapsed as the crust tore apart. This crater was once the

:34:42.:34:43.

apart. This crater was once the apart. This crater was once the

:34:43.:34:45.

scene of regular volcanic eruptions, scene of regular volcanic eruptions,

:34:45.:34:46.

scene of regular volcanic eruptions, scene of regular volcanic eruptions,

:34:46.:34:48.

at least the size of crack toe what, at least the size of crack toe what,

:34:48.:34:53.

at least the size of crack toe what, shooting rocks like this -- Kratoa,

:34:54.:34:55.

shooting rocks like this -- Kratoa, shooting rocks like this -- Kratoa,

:34:55.:34:59.

shooting rocks like this into the shooting rocks like this into the

:34:59.:35:00.

shooting rocks like this into the shooting rocks like this into the

:35:00.:35:02.

air, a whole caldron of ash and air, a whole caldron of ash and

:35:02.:35:04.

air, a whole caldron of ash and molten lava. Now that very same

:35:04.:35:06.

molten lava. Now that very same molten lava. Now that very same

:35:06.:35:07.

power is being harnessed for energy power is being harnessed for energy

:35:07.:35:09.

power is being harnessed for energy power is being harnessed for energy

:35:09.:35:10.

for Africa. This is home to the for Africa. This is home to the

:35:10.:35:11.

for Africa. This is home to the for Africa. This is home to the

:35:11.:35:12.

power hungry. With a few shops and power hungry. With a few shops and

:35:12.:35:14.

power hungry. With a few shops and power hungry. With a few shops and

:35:14.:35:18.

farms, life goes on, but not as we farms, life goes on, but not as we

:35:18.:35:20.

know it. Without electricity know it. Without electricity

:35:20.:35:25.

aspirations are cut short. aspirations are cut short.

:35:25.:35:27.

aspirations are cut short. Sylvester works by hand, slow for

:35:27.:35:30.

Sylvester works by hand, slow for him, unpopular and occasionally

:35:30.:35:33.

him, unpopular and occasionally painful for customers.

:35:33.:35:35.

painful for customers. painful for customers.

:35:35.:35:35.

painful for customers. His aunt makes clothes by hand. And

:35:35.:35:45.
:35:45.:35:46.

foot. foot.

:35:46.:35:47.

foot. foot.

:35:47.:35:48.

foot. What Can you do for me? I can shave

:35:48.:35:49.

What Can you do for me? I can shave What Can you do for me? I can shave

:35:49.:35:50.

What Can you do for me? I can shave you. Not too much.There is another

:35:50.:35:52.

you. Not too much.There is another you. Not too much.There is another

:35:52.:35:54.

business in my mind, a vision business in my mind, a vision

:35:54.:35:55.

business in my mind, a vision whereby on getting electricity, I

:35:55.:35:59.

whereby on getting electricity, I whereby on getting electricity, I

:35:59.:36:00.

may start welding. Welding?Welding. may start welding. Welding?Welding.

:36:00.:36:02.

may start welding. Welding?Welding. You are a businessman with ideas.

:36:02.:36:03.

You are a businessman with ideas. You are a businessman with ideas.

:36:03.:36:05.

You are a businessman with ideas. But you can't get on, how does that

:36:05.:36:07.

But you can't get on, how does that happen? Without electricity I'm

:36:07.:36:09.

happen? Without electricity I'm happen? Without electricity I'm

:36:09.:36:10.

happen? Without electricity I'm very much board. For I have the

:36:10.:36:11.

very much board. For I have the very much board. For I have the

:36:11.:36:17.

ability, but I have no power. ability, but I have no power.

:36:17.:36:18.

ability, but I have no power. ability, but I have no power.

:36:18.:36:19.

Very neat, but not sure about the Very neat, but not sure about the

:36:19.:36:21.

Very neat, but not sure about the choir boy look. This on-line

:36:21.:36:22.

choir boy look. This on-line choir boy look. This on-line

:36:22.:36:24.

magazine depends on electricity for magazine depends on electricity for

:36:24.:36:25.

magazine depends on electricity for its very existence, yet its creator,

:36:25.:36:28.

its very existence, yet its creator, its very existence, yet its creator,

:36:28.:36:30.

Peter, finds grid power unreliable. Peter, finds grid power unreliable.

:36:30.:36:31.

Peter, finds grid power unreliable. A surge once killed his computer.

:36:31.:36:32.

A surge once killed his computer. A surge once killed his computer.

:36:32.:36:34.

A surge once killed his computer. The lack of power is choking his

:36:34.:36:37.

The lack of power is choking his The lack of power is choking his

:36:37.:36:39.

ambitions. I compare it to a ambitions. I compare it to a

:36:39.:36:41.

ambitions. I compare it to a ambitions. I compare it to a

:36:41.:36:42.

student who doesn't have a book or student who doesn't have a book or

:36:42.:36:42.

student who doesn't have a book or pen. Electricity drives all our

:36:42.:36:44.

pen. Electricity drives all our pen. Electricity drives all our

:36:44.:36:45.

equipment, from the phones, the equipment, from the phones, the

:36:45.:36:46.

equipment, from the phones, the Internet connections we have, and

:36:46.:36:47.

Internet connections we have, and Internet connections we have, and

:36:47.:36:48.

Internet connections we have, and the computers that we use. It is

:36:48.:36:51.

the computers that we use. It is the computers that we use. It is

:36:51.:36:56.

very important at a time whener very important at a time whener

:36:56.:36:59.

very important at a time whener exploding when we are exploding in

:36:59.:37:01.

exploding when we are exploding in internet usage. The entrepeneurs

:37:01.:37:02.

internet usage. The entrepeneurs internet usage. The entrepeneurs

:37:02.:37:03.

have to be savvy and conducting have to be savvy and conducting

:37:03.:37:05.

their business transactions at their business transactions at

:37:05.:37:08.

their business transactions at night. This place, known as Hell's

:37:08.:37:09.

night. This place, known as Hell's night. This place, known as Hell's

:37:09.:37:12.

Gate, could deliver the power they crave.

:37:12.:37:14.

crave. crave.

:37:14.:37:16.

crave. The earth is still young here, as

:37:16.:37:19.

The earth is still young here, as The earth is still young here, as

:37:19.:37:20.

The earth is still young here, as the rift rally widens crack -- Rift

:37:20.:37:21.

the rift rally widens crack -- Rift the rift rally widens crack -- Rift

:37:21.:37:22.

Valley widens and the heat escapes Valley widens and the heat escapes

:37:23.:37:24.

Valley widens and the heat escapes Valley widens and the heat escapes

:37:24.:37:26.

to the surface. You can smell the to the surface. You can smell the

:37:26.:37:27.

to the surface. You can smell the sulfur here, and the rocks, toastie.

:37:27.:37:28.

sulfur here, and the rocks, toastie. sulfur here, and the rocks, toastie.

:37:28.:37:31.

They are drilling to discover we They are drilling to discover we

:37:31.:37:32.

They are drilling to discover we wills of super-heated water, under

:37:32.:37:33.

wills of super-heated water, under wills of super-heated water, under

:37:33.:37:34.

massive pressure. Once found the massive pressure. Once found the

:37:34.:37:36.

massive pressure. Once found the massive pressure. Once found the

:37:36.:37:38.

steam is piped up into turbines to steam is piped up into turbines to

:37:38.:37:39.

generate electricity. We are generate electricity. We are

:37:39.:37:40.

generate electricity. We are generate electricity. We are

:37:40.:37:41.

drilling and we are using water and drilling and we are using water and

:37:41.:37:42.

drilling and we are using water and the circulation medium to subdue

:37:42.:37:44.

the circulation medium to subdue the circulation medium to subdue

:37:44.:37:45.

the pressure and temperatures to the pressure and temperatures to

:37:45.:37:48.

the pressure and temperatures to enable us to drill ahead. Daniel

:37:48.:37:51.

enable us to drill ahead. Daniel enable us to drill ahead. Daniel

:37:51.:37:53.

leads the hunt. This is something leads the hunt. This is something

:37:53.:37:55.

leads the hunt. This is something leads the hunt. This is something

:37:55.:37:56.

that can put power on-line as fast that can put power on-line as fast

:37:56.:37:56.

that can put power on-line as fast as possible, geothermal is doing

:37:56.:37:57.

as possible, geothermal is doing as possible, geothermal is doing

:37:57.:37:58.

as possible, geothermal is doing that for us. Everyone is trying to

:37:58.:37:59.

that for us. Everyone is trying to that for us. Everyone is trying to

:37:59.:38:00.

that for us. Everyone is trying to find out what is going on in the

:38:00.:38:01.

find out what is going on in the find out what is going on in the

:38:01.:38:02.

power sector. We are having people power sector. We are having people

:38:02.:38:03.

power sector. We are having people power sector. We are having people

:38:03.:38:04.

coming from all over Kenya and the coming from all over Kenya and the

:38:04.:38:05.

coming from all over Kenya and the coming from all over Kenya and the

:38:05.:38:06.

world to see what we are doing in world to see what we are doing in

:38:06.:38:07.

world to see what we are doing in world to see what we are doing in

:38:07.:38:08.

geothermal. It is a huge scale what geothermal. It is a huge scale what

:38:08.:38:09.

geothermal. It is a huge scale what geothermal. It is a huge scale what

:38:09.:38:11.

you are doing here? Yes it is. you are doing here? Yes it is.

:38:11.:38:12.

you are doing here? Yes it is. Because it is a single biggest

:38:12.:38:13.

Because it is a single biggest Because it is a single biggest

:38:13.:38:17.

investment in Kenya. It will cost investment in Kenya. It will cost

:38:17.:38:21.

investment in Kenya. It will cost about $1.3 billion US. It has

:38:21.:38:23.

about $1.3 billion US. It has about $1.3 billion US. It has

:38:23.:38:24.

generated excitement all over. generated excitement all over.

:38:24.:38:26.

generated excitement all over. drill is bothering down two miles

:38:26.:38:29.

drill is bothering down two miles drill is bothering down two miles

:38:29.:38:30.

drill is bothering down two miles into the earth, -- boring down two

:38:30.:38:32.

into the earth, -- boring down two into the earth, -- boring down two

:38:32.:38:33.

miles into the earth, there are miles into the earth, there are

:38:33.:38:34.

miles into the earth, there are miles into the earth, there are

:38:34.:38:36.

eight of these drills at the moment, eight of these drills at the moment,

:38:37.:38:38.

eight of these drills at the moment, eight of these drills at the moment,

:38:38.:38:39.

they want to drill over 100 wells. they want to drill over 100 wells.

:38:39.:38:40.

they want to drill over 100 wells. they want to drill over 100 wells.

:38:40.:38:41.

When they hit a reservoir of water When they hit a reservoir of water

:38:41.:38:42.

When they hit a reservoir of water When they hit a reservoir of water

:38:42.:38:45.

and get a pipe in, the results are spectacular.

:38:45.:38:46.

spectacular. spectacular.

:38:46.:38:48.

spectacular. That is so much more than just a

:38:48.:38:49.

That is so much more than just a That is so much more than just a

:38:49.:38:51.

deafening roar. It is an elemental deafening roar. It is an elemental

:38:51.:38:52.

deafening roar. It is an elemental power that makes the ground tremble

:38:52.:38:53.

power that makes the ground tremble power that makes the ground tremble

:38:53.:38:54.

power that makes the ground tremble and shakes your chest. Truly it is

:38:54.:39:01.

and shakes your chest. Truly it is a force of nature.

:39:01.:39:03.

a force of nature. a force of nature.

:39:03.:39:05.

Taming that force requires roads, Taming that force requires roads,

:39:05.:39:06.

Taming that force requires roads, pipelines and big earth moving.

:39:06.:39:07.

pipelines and big earth moving. pipelines and big earth moving.

:39:07.:39:09.

Scaring what is a National Park. Scaring what is a National Park.

:39:09.:39:10.

Scaring what is a National Park. But the developers insist they will

:39:10.:39:14.

But the developers insist they will But the developers insist they will

:39:14.:39:15.

restore it. The scalding water and restore it. The scalding water and

:39:15.:39:17.

restore it. The scalding water and steam come here to turn turbines

:39:17.:39:19.

steam come here to turn turbines steam come here to turn turbines

:39:19.:39:19.

and make electricity. This power and make electricity. This power

:39:19.:39:21.

and make electricity. This power and make electricity. This power

:39:21.:39:22.

station has been going for 20 years. station has been going for 20 years.

:39:22.:39:24.

station has been going for 20 years. But the new wells being drilled

:39:24.:39:25.

But the new wells being drilled But the new wells being drilled

:39:25.:39:27.

But the new wells being drilled will need a far bigger power plant.

:39:27.:39:29.

will need a far bigger power plant. will need a far bigger power plant.

:39:29.:39:31.

As this geothermal field alone will As this geothermal field alone will

:39:31.:39:33.

As this geothermal field alone will produce more than Kenya's entire

:39:33.:39:35.

produce more than Kenya's entire produce more than Kenya's entire

:39:35.:39:35.

current electricity output and more current electricity output and more

:39:35.:39:38.

current electricity output and more are being explored. Power is the

:39:38.:39:39.

are being explored. Power is the are being explored. Power is the

:39:39.:39:40.

engine for the Government. And we engine for the Government. And we

:39:40.:39:42.

engine for the Government. And we are really looking at geothermal

:39:42.:39:44.

are really looking at geothermal are really looking at geothermal

:39:44.:39:45.

being really the driver for that being really the driver for that

:39:45.:39:46.

being really the driver for that expansion that we need to have

:39:46.:39:47.

expansion that we need to have expansion that we need to have

:39:47.:39:48.

enough power in this country to enough power in this country to

:39:48.:39:50.

enough power in this country to drive the economy, and therefore

:39:50.:39:52.

drive the economy, and therefore drive the economy, and therefore

:39:52.:39:53.

achieve our vision. The picture achieve our vision. The picture

:39:53.:39:55.

achieve our vision. The picture achieve our vision. The picture

:39:55.:39:57.

will look very green in ten years will look very green in ten years

:39:57.:39:58.

will look very green in ten years will look very green in ten years

:39:58.:40:00.

time. We reckon about 07% of our time. We reckon about 07% of our

:40:00.:40:02.

time. We reckon about 07% of our power supply will come from green

:40:02.:40:03.

power supply will come from green power supply will come from green

:40:03.:40:05.

power supply will come from green sources. That is a figure that most

:40:05.:40:06.

sources. That is a figure that most sources. That is a figure that most

:40:06.:40:07.

western countries will really envy. western countries will really envy.

:40:07.:40:10.

western countries will really envy. We have the natural resources, wind,

:40:10.:40:14.

We have the natural resources, wind, solar, geothermals. But making

:40:14.:40:15.

solar, geothermals. But making solar, geothermals. But making

:40:15.:40:16.

electricity is only half of electricity is only half of

:40:16.:40:16.

electricity is only half of Africa's problem, how do you

:40:16.:40:18.

Africa's problem, how do you Africa's problem, how do you

:40:18.:40:20.

deliver it. Only one third of deliver it. Only one third of

:40:20.:40:30.
:40:30.:40:30.

deliver it. Only one third of Kenya's population have mains power.

:40:30.:40:32.

Kenya's population have mains power. Kenya's population have mains power.

:40:32.:40:33.

Kenya's population have mains power. As night falls in the village, Lina

:40:33.:40:35.

As night falls in the village, Lina As night falls in the village, Lina

:40:35.:40:36.

As night falls in the village, Lina makes the tea, while her boys do

:40:36.:40:40.

makes the tea, while her boys do makes the tea, while her boys do

:40:40.:40:42.

their homework. Light for both their homework. Light for both

:40:42.:40:44.

their homework. Light for both comes from burning pricey paraffin.

:40:44.:40:47.

comes from burning pricey paraffin. comes from burning pricey paraffin.

:40:47.:40:51.

comes from burning pricey paraffin. How much does it cost you? 100

:40:51.:40:53.

How much does it cost you? 100 How much does it cost you? 100

:40:53.:40:53.

How much does it cost you? 100 shillings in a week. That is 80p

:40:53.:40:55.

shillings in a week. That is 80p shillings in a week. That is 80p

:40:55.:40:56.

she would like to save. And she would like to save. And

:40:56.:40:58.

she would like to save. And paraffin comes with health CoS too.

:40:58.:40:59.

paraffin comes with health CoS too. paraffin comes with health CoS too.

:40:59.:41:01.

An evening's lighting produces as An evening's lighting produces as

:41:01.:41:07.

An evening's lighting produces as much pollution as 40 cigarettes.

:41:07.:41:09.

much pollution as 40 cigarettes. much pollution as 40 cigarettes.

:41:09.:41:10.

much pollution as 40 cigarettes. But there is one source of energy

:41:10.:41:12.

But there is one source of energy But there is one source of energy

:41:12.:41:22.
:41:22.:41:24.

that powers the parts that others that powers the parts that others

:41:24.:41:25.

that powers the parts that others that powers the parts that others

:41:25.:41:26.

cannot reach. The sun is coming and cannot reach. The sun is coming and

:41:26.:41:27.

cannot reach. The sun is coming and cannot reach. The sun is coming and

:41:27.:41:34.

the solar roller is on the road. the solar roller is on the road.

:41:34.:41:35.

the solar roller is on the road. Delivering the next batch of solar

:41:35.:41:37.

Delivering the next batch of solar Delivering the next batch of solar

:41:37.:41:38.

lights to remote villages. Sales of lights to remote villages. Sales of

:41:38.:41:40.

lights to remote villages. Sales of these in Africa are more than

:41:40.:41:42.

these in Africa are more than these in Africa are more than

:41:43.:41:51.

doubling every year. Driven by doubling every year. Driven by

:41:51.:41:52.

doubling every year. Driven by plummeting prices. Yes a couple of

:41:52.:41:54.

plummeting prices. Yes a couple of plummeting prices. Yes a couple of

:41:54.:41:55.

plummeting prices. Yes a couple of years ago, within one year we used

:41:55.:41:57.

years ago, within one year we used years ago, within one year we used

:41:57.:41:58.

years ago, within one year we used to sell about 7,000 lights. In 2012

:41:58.:42:00.

to sell about 7,000 lights. In 2012 to sell about 7,000 lights. In 2012

:42:00.:42:01.

to sell about 7,000 lights. In 2012 we did a record of about 20,000

:42:01.:42:02.

we did a record of about 20,000 we did a record of about 20,000

:42:02.:42:05.

lights, within one month. That is lights, within one month. That is

:42:05.:42:06.

lights, within one month. That is four weeks. Every part of solar

:42:06.:42:08.

four weeks. Every part of solar four weeks. Every part of solar

:42:08.:42:10.

technology has got cheaper and technology has got cheaper and

:42:10.:42:13.

technology has got cheaper and better. Panels, bat trees and LED

:42:13.:42:17.

better. Panels, bat trees and LED better. Panels, bat trees and LED

:42:17.:42:19.

bulbs, turning -- batteries and LED bulbs, turning -- batteries and LED

:42:19.:42:25.

bulbs turning into affordable products.

:42:25.:42:26.

products. products.

:42:26.:42:28.

Customers listen to the pitch, but Customers listen to the pitch, but

:42:28.:42:38.
:42:38.:42:39.

Customers listen to the pitch, but really thrilled to the demo.

:42:39.:42:41.

really thrilled to the demo. really thrilled to the demo.

:42:41.:42:43.

It is still working, isn't it. It is still working, isn't it.

:42:44.:42:44.

It is still working, isn't it. It is still working, isn't it.

:42:44.:42:46.

Sales are brisk. Most of the buyers Sales are brisk. Most of the buyers

:42:46.:42:47.

are teachers, shopping for are teachers, shopping for

:42:47.:42:51.

themselves and parents. themselves and parents.

:42:51.:42:53.

themselves and parents. themselves and parents.

:42:53.:42:57.

At a nearby school, you can see the At a nearby school, you can see the

:42:57.:42:59.

At a nearby school, you can see the attraction. During the break, I

:42:59.:43:01.

attraction. During the break, I attraction. During the break, I

:43:01.:43:02.

catch up with headteacher Stanly, catch up with headteacher Stanly,

:43:02.:43:03.

catch up with headteacher Stanly, who has distributed over 1,000

:43:03.:43:05.

who has distributed over 1,000 who has distributed over 1,000

:43:05.:43:10.

lights to his pupils' families. lights to his pupils' families.

:43:10.:43:11.

lights to his pupils' families. gives them extra time reading in

:43:11.:43:12.

gives them extra time reading in gives them extra time reading in

:43:12.:43:13.

gives them extra time reading in the night. That is why the school

:43:13.:43:15.

the night. That is why the school the night. That is why the school

:43:15.:43:17.

the night. That is why the school is coming up from where it was.

:43:17.:43:18.

is coming up from where it was. is coming up from where it was.

:43:19.:43:20.

is coming up from where it was. can put it down to the solar lights.

:43:20.:43:21.

can put it down to the solar lights. can put it down to the solar lights.

:43:21.:43:23.

Your results have improved? It has Your results have improved? It has

:43:23.:43:24.

Your results have improved? It has improved, yeah. You think it is

:43:24.:43:25.

improved, yeah. You think it is improved, yeah. You think it is

:43:25.:43:26.

improved, yeah. You think it is down to lots of people having light

:43:26.:43:30.

down to lots of people having light down to lots of people having light

:43:30.:43:31.

at home? Yeah. After buying this at home? Yeah. After buying this

:43:31.:43:32.

at home? Yeah. After buying this at home? Yeah. After buying this

:43:32.:43:34.

one the children are now coming up one the children are now coming up

:43:34.:43:36.

one the children are now coming up one the children are now coming up

:43:36.:43:38.

with good marks. So they can change their lives.

:43:38.:43:42.

their lives. their lives.

:43:42.:43:45.

their lives. Here is a star pupil. In recent

:43:45.:43:46.

Here is a star pupil. In recent Here is a star pupil. In recent

:43:46.:43:50.

Here is a star pupil. In recent exams Enoch came 55th in the whole

:43:50.:43:51.

exams Enoch came 55th in the whole exams Enoch came 55th in the whole

:43:51.:43:51.

of Kenya. He's a modest character. of Kenya. He's a modest character.

:43:51.:43:55.

of Kenya. He's a modest character. of Kenya. He's a modest character.

:43:55.:43:56.

Yes I did very well. His prospects Yes I did very well. His prospects

:43:56.:43:57.

Yes I did very well. His prospects brightened last year when his

:43:57.:43:59.

brightened last year when his brightened last year when his

:43:59.:44:00.

brightened last year when his mother bought him a light. You will

:44:00.:44:03.

mother bought him a light. You will mother bought him a light. You will

:44:03.:44:06.

limbating the dreams of a teenage limbating the dreams of a teenage

:44:06.:44:08.

limbating the dreams of a teenage boy with an appetite for study.

:44:08.:44:08.

boy with an appetite for study. boy with an appetite for study.

:44:09.:44:09.

boy with an appetite for study. Before there was daylight I used to

:44:09.:44:12.

Before there was daylight I used to Before there was daylight I used to

:44:12.:44:13.

Before there was daylight I used to read up until 7.00 only, when it

:44:13.:44:14.

read up until 7.00 only, when it read up until 7.00 only, when it

:44:14.:44:17.

read up until 7.00 only, when it was bought I read up to 10.00.

:44:17.:44:19.

was bought I read up to 10.00. was bought I read up to 10.00.

:44:19.:44:22.

three more hours of reading every three more hours of reading every

:44:22.:44:25.

three more hours of reading every night. You have got very good

:44:25.:44:26.

night. You have got very good night. You have got very good

:44:26.:44:27.

night. You have got very good results. What do you want to do in

:44:27.:44:28.

results. What do you want to do in results. What do you want to do in

:44:28.:44:30.

results. What do you want to do in your future, what is your hope?

:44:30.:44:31.

your future, what is your hope? your future, what is your hope?

:44:31.:44:41.
:44:41.:44:48.

The economy of Kenya, like many The economy of Kenya, like many

:44:48.:44:49.

The economy of Kenya, like many African countries, is picking up.

:44:49.:44:51.

African countries, is picking up. African countries, is picking up.

:44:51.:44:52.

African countries, is picking up. Last year's growth rate of 4-5% is

:44:52.:44:54.

Last year's growth rate of 4-5% is Last year's growth rate of 4-5% is

:44:54.:44:57.

something Britain can only dream of. something Britain can only dream of.

:44:57.:44:59.

something Britain can only dream of. Demand for electricity is insatible.

:44:59.:45:01.

Demand for electricity is insatible. Demand for electricity is insatible.

:45:01.:45:02.

But if geothermal is going to But if geothermal is going to

:45:02.:45:03.

But if geothermal is going to generate most of the watts to

:45:03.:45:04.

generate most of the watts to generate most of the watts to

:45:04.:45:06.

brighten the future, it will need brighten the future, it will need

:45:06.:45:12.

brighten the future, it will need huge amounts of money. �12-20

:45:13.:45:14.

huge amounts of money. �12-20 huge amounts of money. �12-20

:45:14.:45:17.

billion across the country. Here at billion across the country. Here at

:45:17.:45:18.

billion across the country. Here at the African Development Bank, they

:45:18.:45:20.

the African Development Bank, they the African Development Bank, they

:45:20.:45:21.

are charged with ensuring that are charged with ensuring that

:45:21.:45:22.

are charged with ensuring that investment isn't snuffed out.

:45:22.:45:24.

investment isn't snuffed out. investment isn't snuffed out.

:45:24.:45:26.

you are running a small you are running a small

:45:26.:45:29.

hairdressers or small photocopying hairdressers or small photocopying

:45:29.:45:32.

hairdressers or small photocopying hairdressers or small photocopying

:45:32.:45:34.

shop, to a large factory, energy is shop, to a large factory, energy is

:45:34.:45:34.

shop, to a large factory, energy is shop, to a large factory, energy is

:45:34.:45:35.

the major drain. This could be a the major drain. This could be a

:45:35.:45:37.

large economic zone exporting large economic zone exporting

:45:37.:45:39.

large economic zone exporting consumption, it could be a robust

:45:39.:45:42.

consumption, it could be a robust economy with factories, with

:45:42.:45:43.

economy with factories, with universities, with full economic

:45:43.:45:44.

universities, with full economic universities, with full economic

:45:44.:45:46.

universities, with full economic activities. And all of it will be

:45:46.:45:49.

activities. And all of it will be activities. And all of it will be

:45:49.:45:50.

powered by geothermal and renewable powered by geothermal and renewable

:45:50.:45:52.

powered by geothermal and renewable powered by geothermal and renewable

:45:52.:45:53.

energy. As they say what was once energy. As they say what was once

:45:53.:45:54.

energy. As they say what was once the dark continent will hence forth

:45:54.:45:55.

the dark continent will hence forth the dark continent will hence forth

:45:55.:45:56.

be known as the brightest continent. be known as the brightest continent.

:45:56.:45:57.

be known as the brightest continent. be known as the brightest continent.

:45:57.:45:58.

That will be the reason for all of That will be the reason for all of

:45:58.:46:08.

us to celebrate. us to celebrate.

:46:08.:46:09.

Britain's steam-powered move into Britain's steam-powered move into

:46:09.:46:11.

Britain's steam-powered move into the industrial age relied on a

:46:11.:46:13.

the industrial age relied on a the industrial age relied on a

:46:13.:46:18.

geological luck of abundant coal. geological luck of abundant coal.

:46:18.:46:19.

geological luck of abundant coal. What lies beneath the Rift Valley

:46:19.:46:19.

What lies beneath the Rift Valley What lies beneath the Rift Valley

:46:20.:46:21.

What lies beneath the Rift Valley could do the same for East Africa,

:46:21.:46:22.

could do the same for East Africa, could do the same for East Africa,

:46:22.:46:24.

driving a seismic shift in the driving a seismic shift in the

:46:24.:46:26.

driving a seismic shift in the fortunes of its people. Just time

:46:26.:46:27.

fortunes of its people. Just time fortunes of its people. Just time

:46:27.:46:37.
:46:37.:47:06.

to take you through the papers That's all from us tomorrow. Kirsty

:47:06.:47:07.

That's all from us tomorrow. Kirsty That's all from us tomorrow. Kirsty

:47:07.:47:08.

has a special programme, ten years has a special programme, ten years

:47:08.:47:09.

has a special programme, ten years has a special programme, ten years

:47:09.:47:10.

on from the Iraq War. We will hear on from the Iraq War. We will hear

:47:10.:47:11.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Emily Maitlis.

A Lib Dem, a cardinal and an Italian former prime minister; all accused of sexual misconduct.

A government economic policy with no AAA rating.

And geothermal energy in Africa.


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