28/02/2013 Newsnight

Tonight, another year of failure at Tonight, another year of failure at

Tonight, another year of failure at Tonight, another year of failure at

the bank we all own as RBS the bank we all own as RBS

the bank we all own as RBS announces more than �5 billion in

announces more than �5 billion in announces more than �5 billion in

announces more than �5 billion in losses. Will we ever get our money

back? back?

back? Generous bonuses are still being

Generous bonuses are still being Generous bonuses are still being

Generous bonuses are still being paid to RBS bankers. We will speak

paid to RBS bankers. We will speak paid to RBS bankers. We will speak

paid to RBS bankers. We will speak to the chairman of RBS, and debate

to the chairman of RBS, and debate to the chairman of RBS, and debate

European Union plans to cap all European Union plans to cap all

bankers' bonuses, something David bankers' bonuses, something David

Cameron is against. Cameron is against.

And the Eastleigh by-election. And the Eastleigh by-election.

The Conservatives in Westminster The Conservatives in Westminster

The Conservatives in Westminster tonight are nervous they have come

tonight are nervous they have come tonight are nervous they have come

tonight are nervous they have come third, UKIP are saying they will be

third, UKIP are saying they will be third, UKIP are saying they will be

disappointed if they don't win here. disappointed if they don't win here.

disappointed if they don't win here. The lady's not for turning. And,

The lady's not for turning. And, The lady's not for turning. And,

despite some women getting to the despite some women getting to the

despite some women getting to the very top in politics, after this

very top in politics, after this very top in politics, after this

week's allegations of groping, just week's allegations of groping, just

week's allegations of groping, just how sexist is British politics.

how sexist is British politics. how sexist is British politics.

Another worry about the food chain, Another worry about the food chain,

Another worry about the food chain, the sheep virus which is

the sheep virus which is threatening this year's lambing

threatening this year's lambing threatening this year's lambing

season and heading towards the UK. season and heading towards the UK.

season and heading towards the UK. And goodbye to Pope Benedict, as

And goodbye to Pope Benedict, as And goodbye to Pope Benedict, as

And goodbye to Pope Benedict, as the Vatican lays on a show, we hear

the Vatican lays on a show, we hear the Vatican lays on a show, we hear

about the political manoeuvrings on about the political manoeuvrings on

about the political manoeuvrings on about the political manoeuvrings on

a new hope, that have already begun. a new hope, that have already begun.

a new hope, that have already begun. Good evening. For several years now

Good evening. For several years now Good evening. For several years now

bankers have been the pantomime bankers have been the pantomime

bankers have been the pantomime villains of British public life.

villains of British public life. villains of British public life.

Quite literally in some cases, with Quite literally in some cases, with

Quite literally in some cases, with banker jokes making an appearance

banker jokes making an appearance in Christmas pantomimes. The

in Christmas pantomimes. The in Christmas pantomimes. The

banking crisis, the fiddling of the banking crisis, the fiddling of the

Libor rate, crazy bonuses Libor rate, crazy bonuses

Libor rate, crazy bonuses apparently for failure. Plus from

apparently for failure. Plus from apparently for failure. Plus from

some top bankers an air of some top bankers an air of

some top bankers an air of infallability rarely matched by the

infallability rarely matched by the infallability rarely matched by the

Pope, all of these things have Pope, all of these things have

Pope, all of these things have outraged the public. The bank in

outraged the public. The bank in outraged the public. The bank in

which we, as tax-payers, have the which we, as tax-payers, have the

which we, as tax-payers, have the biggest stake, RBS, posted large

biggest stake, RBS, posted large biggest stake, RBS, posted large

biggest stake, RBS, posted large losses. But those at the top say a

losses. But those at the top say a losses. But those at the top say a

losses. But those at the top say a new dawn is planned. It comes as

new dawn is planned. It comes as new dawn is planned. It comes as

new dawn is planned. It comes as the EU plans to cap bonuses. We

the EU plans to cap bonuses. We the EU plans to cap bonuses. We

discover that one of the key discover that one of the key

players interested in perhaps players interested in perhaps

players interested in perhaps players interested in perhaps

taking a big slice of RBS has now taking a big slice of RBS has now

taking a big slice of RBS has now pulled out. The RBS boss, Stephen

pulled out. The RBS boss, Stephen pulled out. The RBS boss, Stephen

Hester, says the event return of Hester, says the event return of

Hester, says the event return of the bank to full private ownership

the bank to full private ownership the bank to full private ownership

the bank to full private ownership is the light at the end of the

is the light at the end of the tunnel. Tax-payers will doubtless

tunnel. Tax-payers will doubtless tunnel. Tax-payers will doubtless

tunnel. Tax-payers will doubtless feel the cost of bailing out that

feel the cost of bailing out that feel the cost of bailing out that

feel the cost of bailing out that bank has been too much and for too

bank has been too much and for too bank has been too much and for too

long. We enter this financial long. We enter this financial

long. We enter this financial tunnel in October 2008, the

tunnel in October 2008, the previous Government pumped �45

previous Government pumped �45 previous Government pumped �45

billion in emergency funding into billion in emergency funding into

billion in emergency funding into billion in emergency funding into

bank about to die. On top of that bank about to die. On top of that

bank about to die. On top of that bank about to die. On top of that

RBS was able to use the Government RBS was able to use the Government

RBS was able to use the Government Asamoah set protection scheme to

Asamoah set protection scheme to Asamoah set protection scheme to

shield �200 billion worth of toxic shield �200 billion worth of toxic

investments. In total, the investments. In total, the

Government provided implicit and Government provided implicit and

Government provided implicit and explicit support to the entire

explicit support to the entire explicit support to the entire

banking system worth �1.16 trillion. banking system worth �1.16 trillion.

banking system worth �1.16 trillion. banking system worth �1.16 trillion.

In doing so they put much of In doing so they put much of

In doing so they put much of Britain's balance sheet on the line,

Britain's balance sheet on the line, Britain's balance sheet on the line,

to protect its banks from complete collapse.

collapse. collapse.

Today the RBS boss said more Today the RBS boss said more

Today the RBS boss said more clearly than after that RBS was

clearly than after that RBS was clearly than after that RBS was

being primed for sale, almost being primed for sale, almost

being primed for sale, almost certainly starting next year.

certainly starting next year. certainly starting next year.

Government can sell their shares Government can sell their shares

Government can sell their shares tomorrow, as far as I'm concerned.

tomorrow, as far as I'm concerned. tomorrow, as far as I'm concerned.

But realistically speaking, we hope But realistically speaking, we hope

But realistically speaking, we hope But realistically speaking, we hope

that we can deliver a much more that we can deliver a much more

that we can deliver a much more normal-looking company, as we move

normal-looking company, as we move normal-looking company, as we move

through 2014. And if that is through 2014. And if that is

through 2014. And if that is coupled with the economy itself

coupled with the economy itself coupled with the economy itself

recovering, which I think is needed recovering, which I think is needed

recovering, which I think is needed to make the stock market cheerful,

to make the stock market cheerful, to make the stock market cheerful,

those two things should provide a those two things should provide a

those two things should provide a platform for the taxpayer to start

platform for the taxpayer to start platform for the taxpayer to start

recouping money. What are the recouping money. What are the

recouping money. What are the options facing the bank now to

options facing the bank now to options facing the bank now to

repay tax-payers? A trade sale is repay tax-payers? A trade sale is

repay tax-payers? A trade sale is the most viable option, where

the most viable option, where the most viable option, where

the most viable option, where tranches of the bank would be sold

tranches of the bank would be sold tranches of the bank would be sold

off. The Government hopes to have off. The Government hopes to have

off. The Government hopes to have at least started that before the

at least started that before the 2015 general election. Full

2015 general election. Full 2015 general election. Full

nationalisation has been mooted by nationalisation has been mooted by

nationalisation has been mooted by both left and right. That might

both left and right. That might both left and right. That might

both left and right. That might have worked two years a but now

have worked two years a but now have worked two years a but now

looking unlikely. Then there is the looking unlikely. Then there is the

looking unlikely. Then there is the plan to hand back shares directly

plan to hand back shares directly to tax-payers. George Osborne

to tax-payers. George Osborne to tax-payers. George Osborne

touted it, before he assumed high touted it, before he assumed high

touted it, before he assumed high office, but Vincent Cable and Nick

office, but Vincent Cable and Nick office, but Vincent Cable and Nick

Clegg still like the idea, despite Clegg still like the idea, despite

Clegg still like the idea, despite its impracticalities. But some in

its impracticalities. But some in its impracticalities. But some in

its impracticalities. But some in the City feel selling off any part

the City feel selling off any part the City feel selling off any part

the City feel selling off any part of the bank before 2015 is fanciful.

of the bank before 2015 is fanciful. of the bank before 2015 is fanciful.

of the bank before 2015 is fanciful. It is highly ambitious, and in fact,

It is highly ambitious, and in fact, It is highly ambitious, and in fact,

highly unrealistic. I don't foresee highly unrealistic. I don't foresee

highly unrealistic. I don't foresee the Government being able to sell

the Government being able to sell the Government being able to sell

any material portion of its any material portion of its

any material portion of its investment at anywhere close to its

investment at anywhere close to its investment at anywhere close to its

average acquisition price. And if average acquisition price. And if

average acquisition price. And if they were to sell, they should

they were to sell, they should they were to sell, they should

start selling now? Yeah, the shares start selling now? Yeah, the shares

start selling now? Yeah, the shares start selling now? Yeah, the shares

have been trading up in the �3.50- have been trading up in the �3.50-

have been trading up in the �3.50- have been trading up in the �3.50-

�3.60 range, my view is they are �3.60 range, my view is they are

�3.60 range, my view is they are currently worth �2.90, therefore a

currently worth �2.90, therefore a rational investor would go

rational investor would go rational investor would go

underweight to RBS. Shares rose 4% underweight to RBS. Shares rose 4%

underweight to RBS. Shares rose 4% since last September, they are

since last September, they are since last September, they are

since last September, they are still worth a tent of their 2008

still worth a tent of their 2008 still worth a tent of their 2008

value. If the Government were to value. If the Government were to

value. If the Government were to sell their RBS shares today, tax-

sell their RBS shares today, tax- sell their RBS shares today, tax-

payers would write off �15 billion payers would write off �15 billion

payers would write off �15 billion in losses. That sell-off process

in losses. That sell-off process in losses. That sell-off process

has been further affected, last has been further affected, last

has been further affected, last year Newsnight revealed that Abu

year Newsnight revealed that Abu year Newsnight revealed that Abu

year Newsnight revealed that Abu Dhabi was in talks with the British

Dhabi was in talks with the British Dhabi was in talks with the British

Dhabi was in talks with the British Government to buy a stake in RBS,

Government to buy a stake in RBS, Government to buy a stake in RBS,

Government to buy a stake in RBS, today we can reveal those talks are

today we can reveal those talks are today we can reveal those talks are

well and truly over. Doubtless they well and truly over. Doubtless they

well and truly over. Doubtless they and other would-be investors have

and other would-be investors have and other would-be investors have

and other would-be investors have been affected by a year of record

been affected by a year of record fines, scandal and political

fines, scandal and political fines, scandal and political

machinations, which has damaged the machinations, which has damaged the

machinations, which has damaged the entire British banking sector. And

entire British banking sector. And entire British banking sector. And

there is further trouble ahead. EU there is further trouble ahead. EU

there is further trouble ahead. EU agreed today that banker bonuses

agreed today that banker bonuses agreed today that banker bonuses

should, in future, not exceed their should, in future, not exceed their

fixed salaries, unless shareholders fixed salaries, unless shareholders

specifically approve. Britain specifically approve. Britain

specifically approve. Britain specifically approve. Britain

wasn't able to block it, so the wasn't able to block it, so the

wasn't able to block it, so the Treasury is now forced to

Treasury is now forced to passionately defend the banking

passionately defend the banking passionately defend the banking

passionately defend the banking fraternity in Brussels, in a way it

fraternity in Brussels, in a way it fraternity in Brussels, in a way it

wouldn't dare do back home. They wouldn't dare do back home. They

wouldn't dare do back home. They may be troublemakers, but they are

may be troublemakers, but they are our troublemakers. The Prime

our troublemakers. The Prime Minister reacted philosophically to

Minister reacted philosophically to Minister reacted philosophically to

the new cap, but his less the new cap, but his less

diplomatic Conservative colleague diplomatic Conservative colleague

diplomatic Conservative colleague was more forthright. You cannot

was more forthright. You cannot was more forthright. You cannot

bring in this type of regulation bring in this type of regulation

bring in this type of regulation without running the risk that these

without running the risk that these without running the risk that these

guys were fundamentally fleet of guys were fundamentally fleet of

guys were fundamentally fleet of guys were fundamentally fleet of

foot, a my grant people, going from foot, a my grant people, going from

foot, a my grant people, going from London, zur Rick, Hong Kong,

London, zur Rick, Hong Kong, London, zur Rick, Hong Kong,

Singapore, and the losers aren't Singapore, and the losers aren't

Singapore, and the losers aren't Singapore, and the losers aren't

just us in London, it is the whole just us in London, it is the whole

just us in London, it is the whole of the European Union. The banks

of the European Union. The banks of the European Union. The banks

could try to circumvent any new could try to circumvent any new

restrictions by simply raising restrictions by simply raising

restrictions by simply raising overall salary level, but many feel

overall salary level, but many feel overall salary level, but many feel

that the culture has now changed. that the culture has now changed.

that the culture has now changed. Bankers recognise the whole climate

Bankers recognise the whole climate Bankers recognise the whole climate

Bankers recognise the whole climate has changed. Look at the outcry the

has changed. Look at the outcry the has changed. Look at the outcry the

other day when some banks started other day when some banks started

other day when some banks started to contemplate pushing bonuses into

to contemplate pushing bonuses into to contemplate pushing bonuses into

next year, where some of their next year, where some of their

next year, where some of their people would have paid slightly

people would have paid slightly people would have paid slightly

people would have paid slightly less tax. They don't do t they have

less tax. They don't do t they have less tax. They don't do t they have

less tax. They don't do t they have got the integrity bug at the top,

got the integrity bug at the top, got the integrity bug at the top,

got the integrity bug at the top, we need to see it coming through

now. now.

now. The banking crisis has now caused

The banking crisis has now caused The banking crisis has now caused

more lasting damage than the Great more lasting damage than the Great

more lasting damage than the Great Depression, and so policy makers

Depression, and so policy makers Depression, and so policy makers

are doing everything to ensure that are doing everything to ensure that

are doing everything to ensure that the economy emerges from this

the economy emerges from this the economy emerges from this

current great recession. But how do current great recession. But how do

current great recession. But how do you do that without damaging

you do that without damaging Britain's most successful economic

Britain's most successful economic Britain's most successful economic

engine, banking? The fate of RBS engine, banking? The fate of RBS

may be a clue. may be a clue.

may be a clue. may be a clue.

Earlier today I went to RBS London Earlier today I went to RBS London

Earlier today I went to RBS London headquarters to meet the bank's

headquarters to meet the bank's headquarters to meet the bank's

chairman, Sir Philip Hampton. Would chairman, Sir Philip Hampton. Would

chairman, Sir Philip Hampton. Would you like to apologise to the

you like to apologise to the you like to apologise to the

British people as your shareholders British people as your shareholders

British people as your shareholders for what are you pretty dismal

for what are you pretty dismal for what are you pretty dismal

results? The results are in two results? The results are in two

results? The results are in two results? The results are in two

parts. The first part is that our parts. The first part is that our

core businesses, the long-term core businesses, the long-term

businesses, the businesses this businesses, the businesses this

businesses, the businesses this company has always had have

company has always had have company has always had have

actually delivered very good result. actually delivered very good result.

actually delivered very good result. Our core businesses have delivered

Our core businesses have delivered Our core businesses have delivered

Our core businesses have delivered a profit of �6.3 billion in 2012

a profit of �6.3 billion in 2012 a profit of �6.3 billion in 2012

that is really about the future. that is really about the future.

that is really about the future. Unfortunately we are still clearing

Unfortunately we are still clearing Unfortunately we are still clearing

up very substantial problems that up very substantial problems that

up very substantial problems that arose largely, but not entirely,

arose largely, but not entirely, arose largely, but not entirely,

largly before the financial crisis largly before the financial crisis

of mis-selling scandals, interest of mis-selling scandals, interest

of mis-selling scandals, interest rate swaps, PPI, things people know

rate swaps, PPI, things people know rate swaps, PPI, things people know

about. And this awful Libor scandal. about. And this awful Libor scandal.

about. And this awful Libor scandal. about. And this awful Libor scandal.

They have all hit our results very, They have all hit our results very,

They have all hit our results very, very hard. We don't expect charges

very hard. We don't expect charges very hard. We don't expect charges

very hard. We don't expect charges of that level to come in the future.

of that level to come in the future. of that level to come in the future.

of that level to come in the future. So, it is a mixed bag, and overall

So, it is a mixed bag, and overall So, it is a mixed bag, and overall

there is a substantial loss. We there is a substantial loss. We

there is a substantial loss. We don't expect to see this again.

don't expect to see this again. don't expect to see this again.

There have been years of There have been years of

disappointment, and the official disappointment, and the official

disappointment, and the official statement said you were chastened

statement said you were chastened statement said you were chastened

statement said you were chastened by this, I think people at home

by this, I think people at home by this, I think people at home

by this, I think people at home will wonder how much will you need

will wonder how much will you need will wonder how much will you need

before things turn around? We have before things turn around? We have

before things turn around? We have taken �900 billion worth of assets

taken �900 billion worth of assets taken �900 billion worth of assets

off the balance sheet. We have off the balance sheet. We have

revamped processes for governance revamped processes for governance

revamped processes for governance revamped processes for governance

and risk, it is a huge turn around and risk, it is a huge turn around

taking place. Disappointingly, taking place. Disappointingly,

taking place. Disappointingly, taking place. Disappointingly,

things are coming back from a time things are coming back from a time

things are coming back from a time before the financial crisis, all

before the financial crisis, all before the financial crisis, all

this mis-selling stuff is from the this mis-selling stuff is from the

this mis-selling stuff is from the early noughties or up until 2008,

early noughties or up until 2008, early noughties or up until 2008,

early noughties or up until 2008, early noughties or up until 2008,

nearly all of it. In a way that is nearly all of it. In a way that is

nearly all of it. In a way that is nearly all of it. In a way that is

worse, in other words it will look worse, in other words it will look

worse, in other words it will look worse, in other words it will look

to people sitting at home as if to people sitting at home as if

to people sitting at home as if there is something still rotten in

there is something still rotten in there is something still rotten in

British banks, and they will look British banks, and they will look

British banks, and they will look British banks, and they will look

at this and think these are self- at this and think these are self-

at this and think these are self- inflicted wounds, as you say, mis-

inflicted wounds, as you say, mis- inflicted wounds, as you say, mis-

selling, and then attempts to fix selling, and then attempts to fix

selling, and then attempts to fix the Libor rate. Although it is

the Libor rate. Although it is the Libor rate. Although it is

coming out now and the financial coming out now and the financial

coming out now and the financial implications are now realised, it

implications are now realised, it implications are now realised, it

is important to remember the is important to remember the

is important to remember the is important to remember the

behaviour that led to it is very behaviour that led to it is very

largely in the past. largely in the past.

largely in the past. Can you explain to the British

Can you explain to the British Can you explain to the British

Can you explain to the British people who own in bank, or most of

people who own in bank, or most of people who own in bank, or most of

people who own in bank, or most of it, why it is appropriate to still

it, why it is appropriate to still it, why it is appropriate to still

pay bonuses to investment bankers, pay bonuses to investment bankers,

pay bonuses to investment bankers, pay bonuses to investment bankers,

when you are posting huge losses Of when you are posting huge losses Of

when you are posting huge losses Of when you are posting huge losses Of

our money? We have been leading the our money? We have been leading the

our money? We have been leading the way in reducing bonuses. Our

way in reducing bonuses. Our way in reducing bonuses. Our

bonuses in investment banking are bonuses in investment banking are

bonuses in investment banking are bonuses in investment banking are

less than a quarter of what they less than a quarter of what they

less than a quarter of what they were four or five years. People

were four or five years. People were four or five years. People

were four or five years. People will think you are just less bad

will think you are just less bad will think you are just less bad

will think you are just less bad than you used to be and less bad

than you used to be and less bad than you used to be and less bad

than the others, it doesn't mean than the others, it doesn't mean

than the others, it doesn't mean than the others, it doesn't mean

you are good? I still think some you are good? I still think some

you are good? I still think some you are good? I still think some

elements of pay in some places are elements of pay in some places are

elements of pay in some places are elements of pay in some places are

still too high, and will, in my still too high, and will, in my

still too high, and will, in my view, continue to come down. We

view, continue to come down. We view, continue to come down. We

view, continue to come down. We also have to live in the market

also have to live in the market also have to live in the market

also have to live in the market place that we are in. This is a

place that we are in. This is a place that we are in. This is a

very competitive market place for very competitive market place for

very competitive market place for very competitive market place for

talent. I can show you other banks talent. I can show you other banks

talent. I can show you other banks talent. I can show you other banks

in the City of London, in New York in the City of London, in New York

in the City of London, in New York and other places where we operate,

and other places where we operate, and other places where we operate,

where bonus levels are significant where bonus levels are significant

where bonus levels are significant where bonus levels are significant

low higher than at RBS. We have to low higher than at RBS. We have to

low higher than at RBS. We have to compete for the same talent. We

compete for the same talent. We compete for the same talent. We

compete for the same talent. We have to get people in, and we have

have to get people in, and we have have to get people in, and we have

to retain them. Can you understand to retain them. Can you understand

to retain them. Can you understand to retain them. Can you understand

why the European Union wants to cap why the European Union wants to cap

why the European Union wants to cap why the European Union wants to cap

banker bonuses? My own view is some banker bonuses? My own view is some

banker bonuses? My own view is some of the new regulation might have

of the new regulation might have of the new regulation might have

been more effective a few yearsing, been more effective a few yearsing,

been more effective a few yearsing, been more effective a few yearsing,

and now it looks a little -- a and now it looks a little -- a

and now it looks a little -- a and now it looks a little -- a

years ago, and now it looks like years ago, and now it looks like

years ago, and now it looks like closing the stable door after the

closing the stable door after the closing the stable door after the

closing the stable door after the horse has bolted. How do you say to

horse has bolted. How do you say to horse has bolted. How do you say to

David Cameron and Boris Johnson David Cameron and Boris Johnson

David Cameron and Boris Johnson David Cameron and Boris Johnson

that you do live in a competitive that you do live in a competitive

that you do live in a competitive interest, and if these measures go

interest, and if these measures go interest, and if these measures go

interest, and if these measures go forward you will lose out to the

forward you will lose out to the forward you will lose out to the

United States, Dubai and other United States, Dubai and other

United States, Dubai and other United States, Dubai and other

places? We have to take it as a places? We have to take it as a

places? We have to take it as a places? We have to take it as a

significant risk, in my view it is significant risk, in my view it is

significant risk, in my view it is overstated a lot. London has

overstated a lot. London has fantastic capablities that have

fantastic capablities that have fantastic capablities that have

endured all sorts of pressures over endured all sorts of pressures over

endured all sorts of pressures over endured all sorts of pressures over

a long period of time. London over a long period of time. London over

a long period of time. London over a long period of time. London over

the last 20 years in particular has the last 20 years in particular has

the last 20 years in particular has been building its capability. But

been building its capability. But been building its capability. But

London has also taken a big London has also taken a big

London has also taken a big reputational knock. It is big

reputational knock. It is big reputational knock. It is big

source of profit and taxation that source of profit and taxation that

source of profit and taxation that helps the UK economy enormously. It

helps the UK economy enormously. It helps the UK economy enormously. It

is very important we continue to is very important we continue to

is very important we continue to is very important we continue to

protect it. Can we end in the last protect it. Can we end in the last

protect it. Can we end in the last minute or two just talking about

minute or two just talking about minute or two just talking about

the tax-payers again. This is the tax-payers again. This is

the tax-payers again. This is really the issue, because of the

really the issue, because of the really the issue, because of the

really the issue, because of the way in which you are owned. When

way in which you are owned. When way in which you are owned. When

way in which you are owned. When 82% or so was bought by the British

82% or so was bought by the British 82% or so was bought by the British

taxpayer, the shares were at 500p, taxpayer, the shares were at 500p,

taxpayer, the shares were at 500p, taxpayer, the shares were at 500p,

now they have gone down, so that if now they have gone down, so that if

now they have gone down, so that if now they have gone down, so that if

you were to sell the whole company you were to sell the whole company

you were to sell the whole company today there would be another loss

today there would be another loss today there would be another loss

today there would be another loss of �15 billion. Why should we be

of �15 billion. Why should we be of �15 billion. Why should we be

confident that when this bank is confident that when this bank is

confident that when this bank is finally sold, perhaps in 2015, it

finally sold, perhaps in 2015, it finally sold, perhaps in 2015, it

finally sold, perhaps in 2015, it won't be another huge loss. Our job

won't be another huge loss. Our job won't be another huge loss. Our job

won't be another huge loss. Our job won't be another huge loss. Our job

is to fix the bank as soon as we is to fix the bank as soon as we

is to fix the bank as soon as we possibly can and give the options

possibly can and give the options possibly can and give the options

possibly can and give the options to the Government to sell as soon

to the Government to sell as soon to the Government to sell as soon

to the Government to sell as soon as they want to. Our target, which

as they want to. Our target, which as they want to. Our target, which

as they want to. Our target, which is a tough target is to try to

is a tough target is to try to is a tough target is to try to

finish the reconstruction of the finish the reconstruction of the

finish the reconstruction of the bank and have a profitable, sound,

bank and have a profitable, sound, bank and have a profitable, sound,

stable bank, during the course of stable bank, during the course of

stable bank, during the course of stable bank, during the course of

2014, so the Government can look at 2014, so the Government can look at

2014, so the Government can look at 2014, so the Government can look at

how it want to dispose of its how it want to dispose of its

how it want to dispose of its stakes. Finally 2014, if we come

stakes. Finally 2014, if we come stakes. Finally 2014, if we come

stakes. Finally 2014, if we come back next year you will be in

back next year you will be in back next year you will be in

profit? We expect to be profitable, profit? We expect to be profitable,

profit? We expect to be profitable, absolutely. We are profitable for

absolutely. We are profitable for absolutely. We are profitable for

the continuing business. We have the continuing business. We have

substantial and very regretable substantial and very regretable

substantial and very regretable legacy charges still coming through.

legacy charges still coming through. legacy charges still coming through.

There is a clear division between There is a clear division between

There is a clear division between There is a clear division between

those who think that if the banks those who think that if the banks

those who think that if the banks do not cut bonuses someone will

do not cut bonuses someone will do not cut bonuses someone will

do not cut bonuses someone will have to do it for them and those

have to do it for them and those have to do it for them and those

like the Prime Minister, David like the Prime Minister, David

like the Prime Minister, David Cameron, who worry that the result

Cameron, who worry that the result Cameron, who worry that the result

will be bankers leaving the UK, will be bankers leaving the UK,

will be bankers leaving the UK, taking their business with them.

taking their business with them. taking their business with them.

taking their business with them. I'm joined now from Brussels by the

I'm joined now from Brussels by the I'm joined now from Brussels by the

Lib Dem MEP Sharon Boles, who Lib Dem MEP Sharon Boles, who

chaired the European Parliament's chaired the European Parliament's

chaired the European Parliament's committee that proposed to cut

committee that proposed to cut committee that proposed to cut

bonuses. And we have Nicola Horlick, bonuses. And we have Nicola Horlick,

bonuses. And we have Nicola Horlick, investment manager, in the studio.

investment manager, in the studio. investment manager, in the studio.

investment manager, in the studio. Why is it that bankers hate what

Why is it that bankers hate what Why is it that bankers hate what

Why is it that bankers hate what they do so much that they wouldn't

they do so much that they wouldn't they do so much that they wouldn't

they do so much that they wouldn't do it if they don't get huge

do it if they don't get huge do it if they don't get huge

bonuss? I don't think they wouldn't bonuss? I don't think they wouldn't

bonuss? I don't think they wouldn't bonuss? I don't think they wouldn't

do it unless they get big bonuses. do it unless they get big bonuses.

do it unless they get big bonuses. do it unless they get big bonuses.

The way banks operated in the past The way banks operated in the past

The way banks operated in the past The way banks operated in the past

is a low fixed cost base by having is a low fixed cost base by having

lower salaries, and more lower salaries, and more

lower salaries, and more remuneration came through the bonus

remuneration came through the bonus remuneration came through the bonus

remuneration came through the bonus system. The idea was, if bank did

system. The idea was, if bank did system. The idea was, if bank did

system. The idea was, if bank did badly they wouldn't get a bonus and

badly they wouldn't get a bonus and badly they wouldn't get a bonus and

badly they wouldn't get a bonus and you have a lower cost base. Isn't

you have a lower cost base. Isn't you have a lower cost base. Isn't

that the point what sticks in that the point what sticks in

that the point what sticks in people's craw is partly the figures,

people's craw is partly the figures, people's craw is partly the figures,

people's craw is partly the figures, but some of these banks do terribly

but some of these banks do terribly but some of these banks do terribly

are still paying bonuses? I don't are still paying bonuses? I don't

are still paying bonuses? I don't are still paying bonuses? I don't

are still paying bonuses? I don't want to go into all. That it is a

want to go into all. That it is a want to go into all. That it is a

very emotive subject, the real very emotive subject, the real

very emotive subject, the real very emotive subject, the real

point here is what the EU is doing point here is what the EU is doing

point here is what the EU is doing point here is what the EU is doing

is going to make basic pay go up is going to make basic pay go up

is going to make basic pay go up very substantially. That is what

very substantially. That is what very substantially. That is what

very substantially. That is what will happen. To get round it.And

will happen. To get round it.And will happen. To get round it.And

will happen. To get round it.And by doing that, you are going to

by doing that, you are going to by doing that, you are going to

by doing that, you are going to have a much higher fixed cost base

have a much higher fixed cost base have a much higher fixed cost base

have a much higher fixed cost base for the banks, that's going to mean

for the banks, that's going to mean for the banks, that's going to mean

they have to have higher capital they have to have higher capital

they have to have higher capital ratio, which means it will be

ratio, which means it will be ratio, which means it will be

ratio, which means it will be harder for them to lend. We are

harder for them to lend. We are harder for them to lend. We are

already in a very difficult already in a very difficult

already in a very difficult position with the banks not lending

position with the banks not lending position with the banks not lending

enough. Why would any banker work enough. Why would any banker work

enough. Why would any banker work enough. Why would any banker work

in London for a capped bonus, when in London for a capped bonus, when

in London for a capped bonus, when in London for a capped bonus, when

in London for a capped bonus, when they can go to New York or you are

they can go to New York or you are they can go to New York or you are

they can go to New York or you are in -- zur Rick and make more money?

in -- zur Rick and make more money? in -- zur Rick and make more money?

in -- zur Rick and make more money? It depends why what they are going

It depends why what they are going It depends why what they are going

It depends why what they are going for. If it is a European bank it

for. If it is a European bank it for. If it is a European bank it

for. If it is a European bank it doesn't matter where it is in the

doesn't matter where it is in the doesn't matter where it is in the

doesn't matter where it is in the world they will have to have their

world they will have to have their world they will have to have their

world they will have to have their bonus capped. They will have to go

bonus capped. They will have to go bonus capped. They will have to go

bonus capped. They will have to go to a different bank. I don't think

to a different bank. I don't think to a different bank. I don't think

to a different bank. I don't think there is enough jobs in all the

there is enough jobs in all the there is enough jobs in all the

different banks. They might do that. different banks. They might do that.

different banks. They might do that. I don't subscribe to the notion

I don't subscribe to the notion I don't subscribe to the notion

I don't subscribe to the notion that there is only a select number

that there is only a select number that there is only a select number

that there is only a select number of people, there won't be a huge

of people, there won't be a huge migration. Realistically we don't

migration. Realistically we don't migration. Realistically we don't

know whether there will be this know whether there will be this

know whether there will be this migration. We will monitor it and

migration. We will monitor it and migration. We will monitor it and

migration. We will monitor it and take teps steps to reverse it if it

take teps steps to reverse it if it take teps steps to reverse it if it

take teps steps to reverse it if it is true. We have been here on other

is true. We have been here on other is true. We have been here on other

issues, with mobile phone roaming issues, with mobile phone roaming

issues, with mobile phone roaming issues, with mobile phone roaming

charges it was the end of mobile charges it was the end of mobile

charges it was the end of mobile telephony, and there was no such

telephony, and there was no such telephony, and there was no such

telephony, and there was no such thing with a cap on it. We have

thing with a cap on it. We have thing with a cap on it. We have

been here before, and we are been here before, and we are

been here before, and we are been here before, and we are

sceptical. Do you think there is a sceptical. Do you think there is a

sceptical. Do you think there is a sceptical. Do you think there is a

risk, and it was pointed out and I risk, and it was pointed out and I

risk, and it was pointed out and I risk, and it was pointed out and I

have spoken to bankers who say it have spoken to bankers who say it

have spoken to bankers who say it have spoken to bankers who say it

is exactly as she said, it is about is exactly as she said, it is about

increasing salaries and causing increasing salaries and causing

increasing salaries and causing problems with lending. Since the

problems with lending. Since the problems with lending. Since the

main problem today is lending, that main problem today is lending, that

main problem today is lending, that will make things worse? They would

will make things worse? They would will make things worse? They would

argue that, wouldn't they, when argue that, wouldn't they, when

argue that, wouldn't they, when they want to have their bonuses.

they want to have their bonuses. they want to have their bonuses.

There are various steps that you There are various steps that you

There are various steps that you There are various steps that you

can look at that should stop it can look at that should stop it

can look at that should stop it can look at that should stop it

going too far. First of all, the going too far. First of all, the

going too far. First of all, the management has to keep add handle

management has to keep add handle management has to keep add handle

on their fixed costs. Secondly, the on their fixed costs. Secondly, the

on their fixed costs. Secondly, the supervisers will look at the bank

supervisers will look at the bank supervisers will look at the bank

supervisers will look at the bank and say, right, well if you are

and say, right, well if you are and say, right, well if you are

and say, right, well if you are paying out too much, you can't do

paying out too much, you can't do paying out too much, you can't do

it because you are going unstable it because you are going unstable

it because you are going unstable it because you are going unstable

or you are going to have to find or you are going to have to find

or you are going to have to find more capital, which they won't

more capital, which they won't more capital, which they won't

more capital, which they won't necessarily be able to do all that

necessarily be able to do all that easily. And finally the

easily. And finally the easily. And finally the

shareholders can intervene and say, shareholders can intervene and say,

shareholders can intervene and say, shareholders can intervene and say,

hang on a minute, your fixed costs hang on a minute, your fixed costs

hang on a minute, your fixed costs hang on a minute, your fixed costs

are too high and you are not paying are too high and you are not paying

are too high and you are not paying are too high and you are not paying

any dividends. They have got to get any dividends. They have got to get

any dividends. They have got to get over all of those three hurdles.

over all of those three hurdles. over all of those three hurdles.

Bring anything Nicola Horlick on Bring anything Nicola Horlick on

Bring anything Nicola Horlick on Bring anything Nicola Horlick on

that, it is a scare to say they that, it is a scare to say they

that, it is a scare to say they will go somewhere else, because

will go somewhere else, because will go somewhere else, because

will go somewhere else, because there are not that many jobs, and

there are not that many jobs, and there are not that many jobs, and

there are not that many jobs, and it is not that easey to simply

it is not that easey to simply it is not that easey to simply

it is not that easey to simply increase pay? That is not true. It

increase pay? That is not true. It increase pay? That is not true. It

is a very competitive industry, is a very competitive industry,

is a very competitive industry, is a very competitive industry,

with a lot of major players, a lot with a lot of major players, a lot

with a lot of major players, a lot with a lot of major players, a lot

of whom are not European. The most of whom are not European. The most

of whom are not European. The most successful banks are American or

successful banks are American or successful banks are American or

successful banks are American or far eastern banks F they get our

far eastern banks F they get our far eastern banks F they get our

people it will undermine the people it will undermine the

people it will undermine the people it will undermine the

industry. Don't you think this is a industry. Don't you think this is a

industry. Don't you think this is a industry. Don't you think this is a

great idea from the UK and we will great idea from the UK and we will

great idea from the UK and we will great idea from the UK and we will

do it in the United States? If they do it in the United States? If they

do it in the United States? If they do it in the United States? If they

do it in the United States? If they do that is fine. We are on a level

do that is fine. We are on a level do that is fine. We are on a level

do that is fine. We are on a level playing field. If it is a global

playing field. If it is a global playing field. If it is a global

thing, this is the argument going thing, this is the argument going

thing, this is the argument going thing, this is the argument going

thing, this is the argument going on for the last few months F it is

on for the last few months F it is on for the last few months F it is

global that's fine, everybody then global that's fine, everybody then

global that's fine, everybody then global that's fine, everybody then

has to do the same thing. If it has to do the same thing. If it

has to do the same thing. If it only happens in Europe, of course

only happens in Europe, of course only happens in Europe, of course

it is going to undermine the it is going to undermine the

competitiveness of the European competitiveness of the European

competitiveness of the European banking industry. They won't be

banking industry. They won't be banking industry. They won't be

banking industry. They won't be able to get the best people. Do you

able to get the best people. Do you able to get the best people. Do you

think within Europe it penalises think within Europe it penalises

think within Europe it penalises Britain more than anyone else?

Britain more than anyone else? Britain more than anyone else?

because we are the financial centre because we are the financial centre

because we are the financial centre of Europe. It penalises Britain

of Europe. It penalises Britain of Europe. It penalises Britain

much more and listening to Boris much more and listening to Boris

much more and listening to Boris Johnson earlier today, saying this

Johnson earlier today, saying this Johnson earlier today, saying this

measure to come from Europe since measure to come from Europe since

measure to come from Europe since the Emperor Dioclecian tried to fix

the Emperor Dioclecian tried to fix the Emperor Dioclecian tried to fix

the Emperor Dioclecian tried to fix the price of groceries in the Roman

the price of groceries in the Roman the price of groceries in the Roman

empire? That is all very empire? That is all very

empire? That is all very interesting, isn't it. Hang on a

interesting, isn't it. Hang on a interesting, isn't it. Hang on a

interesting, isn't it. Hang on a minute, this is a very small part

minute, this is a very small part minute, this is a very small part

of regulation that deals with how of regulation that deals with how

of regulation that deals with how we capitalise our banks. Most of

we capitalise our banks. Most of we capitalise our banks. Most of

that regulation has things that the that regulation has things that the

that regulation has things that the UK has been driving forward, that

UK has been driving forward, that UK has been driving forward, that

many other member states don't want. many other member states don't want.

many other member states don't want. many other member states don't want.

So you can't actually say that this So you can't actually say that this

So you can't actually say that this So you can't actually say that this

is the UK being done down at the is the UK being done down at the

is the UK being done down at the expense of other member-state. It

expense of other member-state. It expense of other member-state. It

just happens n this one paragraph, just happens n this one paragraph,

just happens n this one paragraph, just happens n this one paragraph,

in the 1400 pages, we didn't get in the 1400 pages, we didn't get

in the 1400 pages, we didn't get in the 1400 pages, we didn't get

our way. We got our way on the our way. We got our way on the

our way. We got our way on the our way. We got our way on the

other four big issues out of the other four big issues out of the

other four big issues out of the five that were being discussed in

five that were being discussed in five that were being discussed in

the trial that went on until the trial that went on until

the trial that went on until midnight last night. We are not

midnight last night. We are not midnight last night. We are not

being isolated. You just have to being isolated. You just have to

being isolated. You just have to being isolated. You just have to

take this in context. I think that take this in context. I think that

take this in context. I think that somebody somewhere has to be brave

somebody somewhere has to be brave somebody somewhere has to be brave

enough. The moral dimension is enough. The moral dimension is

enough. The moral dimension is clear, there is outrage, nobody

clear, there is outrage, nobody clear, there is outrage, nobody

disagrees with this morally. We disagrees with this morally. We

don't know the practical don't know the practical

consequences. Europe has decided consequences. Europe has decided

consequences. Europe has decided consequences. Europe has decided

this is what we are going to do.S this is what we are going to do.S

this is what we are going to do.S this is what we are going to do.S

it is largely a done deal, there is it is largely a done deal, there is

it is largely a done deal, there is very little space for any fiddling

very little space for any fiddling very little space for any fiddling

very little space for any fiddling around the edges with this. Let me

around the edges with this. Let me around the edges with this. Let me

around the edges with this. Let me put that to the studio. They don't

put that to the studio. They don't know the practical consequences,

know the practical consequences, know the practical consequences,

interesting question as to what interesting question as to what

interesting question as to what will happen. It is popular, isn't

will happen. It is popular, isn't will happen. It is popular, isn't

will happen. It is popular, isn't it? I think people still feel very

it? I think people still feel very it? I think people still feel very

it? I think people still feel very angry with banks. You can't have a

angry with banks. You can't have a angry with banks. You can't have a

vibrant economy without banks that vibrant economy without banks that

vibrant economy without banks that vibrant economy without banks that

lend. And that's why, that is one lend. And that's why, that is one

lend. And that's why, that is one of the major reasons why our

of the major reasons why our of the major reasons why our

economy is really struggling, not economy is really struggling, not

economy is really struggling, not economy is really struggling, not

just ours but the whole of the just ours but the whole of the

just ours but the whole of the just ours but the whole of the

European economy. Hang on, we are a market.

market. market.

market. We are market of 500 million people.

We are market of 500 million people. Sorry, thank you.

Sorry, thank you. Sorry, thank you.

Sorry, thank you. In a moment, calling time on the

Eastleigh by-election. Eastleigh by-election.

Eastleigh by-election. Also coming up, how sexist is

British politics? British politics?

British politics? Pope Benedict has left office, but

Pope Benedict has left office, but Pope Benedict has left office, but

has he also left the Catholic has he also left the Catholic

Church in a mess? Church in a mess?

Church in a mess? The voter of Eastleigh, those who

The voter of Eastleigh, those who The voter of Eastleigh, those who

are interested, have now done their are interested, have now done their

are interested, have now done their are interested, have now done their

democratic duty, it is up to the democratic duty, it is up to the

democratic duty, it is up to the democratic duty, it is up to the

men and women at the count to let men and women at the count to let

men and women at the count to let us know the result. If poll

us know the result. If poll us know the result. If poll

predictions are night, it could be predictions are night, it could be

predictions are night, it could be predictions are night, it could be

a long night and close result. Our a long night and close result. Our

a long night and close result. Our political editor is in Eastleigh

political editor is in Eastleigh political editor is in Eastleigh

political editor is in Eastleigh for us. How close is it looking?

for us. How close is it looking? for us. How close is it looking?

is looking really close, even is looking really close, even

is looking really close, even allowing for the spin wars of

allowing for the spin wars of allowing for the spin wars of

evenings like this evening, both evenings like this evening, both

evenings like this evening, both UKIP and the Liberal Democrats

UKIP and the Liberal Democrats UKIP and the Liberal Democrats

UKIP and the Liberal Democrats agree they can't really say who has

agree they can't really say who has agree they can't really say who has

agree they can't really say who has come first. The Lib Dems will be

come first. The Lib Dems will be suppressing anticipation, UKIP, of

suppressing anticipation, UKIP, of suppressing anticipation, UKIP, of

course, will be building it up. course, will be building it up.

course, will be building it up. course, will be building it up.

They both agree on this, if it was They both agree on this, if it was

They both agree on this, if it was about postal votes, the votes cast

about postal votes, the votes cast about postal votes, the votes cast

right at the beginning when the right at the beginning when the

right at the beginning when the Liberal Democrats were first out of

Liberal Democrats were first out of Liberal Democrats were first out of

Liberal Democrats were first out of the traps it would have been a Lib

the traps it would have been a Lib the traps it would have been a Lib

the traps it would have been a Lib Dem hold. It is not about that, it

Dem hold. It is not about that, it Dem hold. It is not about that, it

Dem hold. It is not about that, it is about the last three weeks and

is about the last three weeks and is about the last three weeks and

is about the last three weeks and today, and today UKIP seem to have

today, and today UKIP seem to have today, and today UKIP seem to have

today, and today UKIP seem to have today, and today UKIP seem to have

had a very good day. It is a small had a very good day. It is a small

had a very good day. It is a small selection, but of the people we

selection, but of the people we selection, but of the people we

selection, but of the people we spoke to, a lot of the ones that

spoke to, a lot of the ones that spoke to, a lot of the ones that

spoke to, a lot of the ones that wanted to say how they voted did

wanted to say how they voted did wanted to say how they voted did

wanted to say how they voted did say UKIP. The Lib Dems this evening

say UKIP. The Lib Dems this evening say UKIP. The Lib Dems this evening

say UKIP. The Lib Dems this evening are saying, yes, it could have been

are saying, yes, it could have been are saying, yes, it could have been

are saying, yes, it could have been close for us. What you have to

close for us. What you have to close for us. What you have to

remember is that it is actually remember is that it is actually

remember is that it is actually about those votes that were cast

about those votes that were cast about those votes that were cast

about those votes that were cast today, and when UKIP say that they

today, and when UKIP say that they today, and when UKIP say that they

have, they will be disappointed if have, they will be disappointed if

have, they will be disappointed if they come first, that is an

extraordinary claim. extraordinary claim.

extraordinary claim. extraordinary claim.

I would like you to find out what I would like you to find out what

I would like you to find out what I would like you to find out what

sort of time people want to vote. sort of time people want to vote.

sort of time people want to vote. This lot have something to prove.

This lot have something to prove. Clipboards, highlighters, sticker,

Clipboards, highlighters, sticker, Clipboards, highlighters, sticker,

Clipboards, highlighters, sticker, they are not the most deadly of

they are not the most deadly of they are not the most deadly of

instruments. But Lib Dems are instruments. But Lib Dems are

instruments. But Lib Dems are instruments. But Lib Dems are

working the last few hours of this working the last few hours of this

working the last few hours of this by-election to settle a political

by-election to settle a political by-election to settle a political

score. The junior partner in score. The junior partner in

score. The junior partner in coalition beat back the big boys.

coalition beat back the big boys. coalition beat back the big boys.

Without you we couldn't do this, Without you we couldn't do this,

Without you we couldn't do this, Without you we couldn't do this,

thanks a lot. In the face of thanks a lot. In the face of

thanks a lot. In the face of horrible headlines the Lib Dems

horrible headlines the Lib Dems horrible headlines the Lib Dems

have sent wave after wave of have sent wave after wave of

have sent wave after wave of activists out into Eastleigh. The

activists out into Eastleigh. The activists out into Eastleigh. The

activists out into Eastleigh. The air war has been gruesome but the

air war has been gruesome but the air war has been gruesome but the

ground troops have carried on ground troops have carried on

ground troops have carried on Pluckley, and the results could

Pluckley, and the results could Pluckley, and the results could

scramble the political compass. The scramble the political compass. The

scramble the political compass. The Lib Dems have been methodical,

Lib Dems have been methodical, Lib Dems have been methodical,

postal votes cast early on were postal votes cast early on were

postal votes cast early on were thought to be two-thirds Lib Dem.

thought to be two-thirds Lib Dem. thought to be two-thirds Lib Dem.

The Tories are getting in their The Tories are getting in their

The Tories are getting in their excuses, they were never going to

excuses, they were never going to excuses, they were never going to

excuses, they were never going to compete with such a dug-in Lib Dem

compete with such a dug-in Lib Dem compete with such a dug-in Lib Dem

operation. Then there is UKIP, operation. Then there is UKIP,

operation. Then there is UKIP, Labour accused of not having worked

Labour accused of not having worked Labour accused of not having worked

hard enough. Eastleigh has seen hard enough. Eastleigh has seen

hard enough. Eastleigh has seen battles before, back in 1994 this

battles before, back in 1994 this battles before, back in 1994 this

man was the surprise victor. Nigel man was the surprise victor. Nigel

man was the surprise victor. Nigel man was the surprise victor. Nigel

Farage who stood against me got 946 Farage who stood against me got 946

Farage who stood against me got 946 Farage who stood against me got 946

votes, he would get more, I tried votes, he would get more, I tried

votes, he would get more, I tried votes, he would get more, I tried

to persuade him to stand but no way. to persuade him to stand but no way.

to persuade him to stand but no way. to persuade him to stand but no way.

As time moves on, come the general As time moves on, come the general

As time moves on, come the general election, things will settle down,

election, things will settle down, election, things will settle down,

I don't think UKIP will maintain I don't think UKIP will maintain

I don't think UKIP will maintain the charge they have done during

the charge they have done during the charge they have done during

the charge they have done during this campaign. It has always been a

this campaign. It has always been a this campaign. It has always been a

this campaign. It has always been a bat the here, since the 1950s any

bat the here, since the 1950s any bat the here, since the 1950s any

way, between Lib Dems, liberals way, between Lib Dems, liberals

then, and the Conservatives. then, and the Conservatives.

then, and the Conservatives. Tonight there was signs voters were

Tonight there was signs voters were Tonight there was signs voters were

rejecting the three main parties. rejecting the three main parties.

rejecting the three main parties. I'm voting UKIP, and mainly because

I'm voting UKIP, and mainly because I'm voting UKIP, and mainly because

I care about immigration. I care I care about immigration. I care

I care about immigration. I care about the amount of people coming

about the amount of people coming about the amount of people coming

about the amount of people coming into the country. I think we should

into the country. I think we should into the country. I think we should

have jobs for British people. Not have jobs for British people. Not

have jobs for British people. Not immigrants coming over. I'm voting

immigrants coming over. I'm voting immigrants coming over. I'm voting

immigrants coming over. I'm voting for UKIP they want for more the

for UKIP they want for more the for UKIP they want for more the

British people. It is right for British people. It is right for

British people. It is right for immigrants to come over, but not

immigrants to come over, but not immigrants to come over, but not

the type of immigrants that come the type of immigrants that come

the type of immigrants that come the type of immigrants that come

over and just scrounge off of us, over and just scrounge off of us,

over and just scrounge off of us, over and just scrounge off of us,

pretty much. But not in a horrible pretty much. But not in a horrible

pretty much. But not in a horrible pretty much. But not in a horrible

way. There has been a steady stream way. There has been a steady stream

way. There has been a steady stream of voters to this polling station

of voters to this polling station of voters to this polling station

in Eastleigh, perhaps turnout could in Eastleigh, perhaps turnout could

in Eastleigh, perhaps turnout could in Eastleigh, perhaps turnout could

end up being really good. They are end up being really good. They are

end up being really good. They are casting their vote and the media

casting their vote and the media casting their vote and the media

casting their vote and the media circus out of the town. On the high

circus out of the town. On the high circus out of the town. On the high

street UKIP had the most prominent street UKIP had the most prominent

street UKIP had the most prominent headquarters. Lib Dems say UKIP

headquarters. Lib Dems say UKIP headquarters. Lib Dems say UKIP

headquarters. Lib Dems say UKIP have given them a run for their

have given them a run for their have given them a run for their

money in terms of enthusiasm. But money in terms of enthusiasm. But

money in terms of enthusiasm. But not precision. All politics is

not precision. All politics is not precision. All politics is

local. But the consequences of this local. But the consequences of this

local. But the consequences of this by-election will be truly national.

by-election will be truly national. by-election will be truly national.

by-election will be truly national. Do you have a sense as to whoit

Do you have a sense as to whoit Do you have a sense as to whoit

Do you have a sense as to whoit just win it in the end? -- who

just win it in the end? -- who just win it in the end? -- who

just win it in the end? -- who might just win it in the end?

might just win it in the end? might just win it in the end?

Liberal Democrats should win it, Liberal Democrats should win it,

Liberal Democrats should win it, they have the method and

they have the method and they have the method and

information about who lies where information about who lies where

information about who lies where information about who lies where

and how they will vote. They have and how they will vote. They have

and how they will vote. They have campaigned acidously, and they have

campaigned acidously, and they have campaigned acidously, and they have

campaigned acidously, and they have chosen how long they wanted it to

chosen how long they wanted it to chosen how long they wanted it to

chosen how long they wanted it to be because they knew how long they

be because they knew how long they be because they knew how long they

could last. UKIP is so Unoable, could last. UKIP is so Unoable,

could last. UKIP is so Unoable, that is the long-term implication

that is the long-term implication that is the long-term implication

for politics. They will scramble for politics. They will scramble

for politics. They will scramble the votes in all sorts of

the votes in all sorts of constituencies around the country,

constituencies around the country, constituencies around the country,

constituencies around the country, such that all of our clever clogs

such that all of our clever clogs such that all of our clever clogs

such that all of our clever clogs that like to know about this stuff

that like to know about this stuff that like to know about this stuff

that like to know about this stuff ant really -- can't really call it

ant really -- can't really call it ant really -- can't really call it

ant really -- can't really call it in future. If the Lib Dems are

in future. If the Lib Dems are in future. If the Lib Dems are

in future. If the Lib Dems are beaten to second and UKIP come or

beaten to second and UKIP come or beaten to second and UKIP come or

beaten to second and UKIP come or the Lib Dems win it, UKIP second

the Lib Dems win it, UKIP second the Lib Dems win it, UKIP second

and the Conservatives third, there and the Conservatives third, there

and the Conservatives third, there are people sharpening knives for

David Cameron. David Cameron.

David Cameron. David Cameron.

The other big story in politic this The other big story in politic this

The other big story in politic this week, the allegation about the Lib

week, the allegation about the Lib week, the allegation about the Lib

Dem poor Lord Rennard, allegations Dem poor Lord Rennard, allegations

Dem poor Lord Rennard, allegations which he very strongly denies, have

which he very strongly denies, have which he very strongly denies, have

raised the matter far wider than raised the matter far wider than

raised the matter far wider than simply the alleged conduct of one

simply the alleged conduct of one simply the alleged conduct of one

man in one political party. How man in one political party. How

man in one political party. How sexist is politics? Despite all-

sexist is politics? Despite all- sexist is politics? Despite all-

women shortlists, in some case, the women shortlists, in some case, the

unique position of Margaret unique position of Margaret

Thatcher, promises to make Thatcher, promises to make

parliament itself for family- parliament itself for family-

parliament itself for family- friendly this country still lags

friendly this country still lags friendly this country still lags

way behind anything near parity way behind anything near parity

way behind anything near parity between men and women in politics.

between men and women in politics. between men and women in politics.

between men and women in politics. It is reflected in the numbers of

It is reflected in the numbers of It is reflected in the numbers of

It is reflected in the numbers of MPs. Is it also reflected in the

MPs. Is it also reflected in the MPs. Is it also reflected in the

behaviour of those involved in behaviour of those involved in

behaviour of those involved in politics. Does it remain a sexist

politics. Does it remain a sexist politics. Does it remain a sexist

politics. Does it remain a sexist macho world, and if so, what would

macho world, and if so, what would macho world, and if so, what would

change that? Joining me now is change that? Joining me now is

change that? Joining me now is change that? Joining me now is

Baroness King, serving as an MP up Baroness King, serving as an MP up

Baroness King, serving as an MP up Baroness King, serving as an MP up

to 2005, and described as one of to 2005, and described as one of

to 2005, and described as one of to 2005, and described as one of

Blair Babes. And Peter Bone is with Blair Babes. And Peter Bone is with

Blair Babes. And Peter Bone is with me. Have you encountered sexism in

me. Have you encountered sexism in your political career? Yeah,

your political career? Yeah, your political career? Yeah,

absolutely I have. I have absolutely I have. I have

absolutely I have. I have encountered a lot of sexism, just

encountered a lot of sexism, just encountered a lot of sexism, just

encountered a lot of sexism, just as a regular women I have been

as a regular women I have been as a regular women I have been

as a regular women I have been attacked on the street by young men

attacked on the street by young men attacked on the street by young men

attacked on the street by young men in the work place I have been

in the work place I have been in the work place I have been

in the work place I have been groped by older men in a party

groped by older men in a party groped by older men in a party

political conference I have been political conference I have been

political conference I have been political conference I have been

dragged out of a lift by a very dragged out of a lift by a very

dragged out of a lift by a very senior political adviser. As a

senior political adviser. As a political assistant I was

political assistant I was indecently propositioned by an

indecently propositioned by an elected politician. So yeah it is

elected politician. So yeah it is elected politician. So yeah it is

elected politician. So yeah it is endemic, we know that. A lot of us

endemic, we know that. A lot of us endemic, we know that. A lot of us

endemic, we know that. A lot of us have said things like this for a

have said things like this for a have said things like this for a

have said things like this for a very long time. It is good people

very long time. It is good people very long time. It is good people

are taking notice. It is about are taking notice. It is about

are taking notice. It is about cultural change and about putting

cultural change and about putting cultural change and about putting

some actual concrete steps in place, some actual concrete steps in place,

some actual concrete steps in place, such as modernising the working

such as modernising the working such as modernising the working

practices of the parliament. Also practices of the parliament. Also

practices of the parliament. Also ensuring there are more women there.

ensuring there are more women there. ensuring there are more women there.

ensuring there are more women there. It is still an entirely, it is a

It is still an entirely, it is a It is still an entirely, it is a

male-dominated work place. Do you male-dominated work place. Do you

male-dominated work place. Do you male-dominated work place. Do you

accept that goes on, and that it accept that goes on, and that it

accept that goes on, and that it translates also into whether women

translates also into whether women translates also into whether women

translates also into whether women get safe seats and better jobs, and

get safe seats and better jobs, and get safe seats and better jobs, and

get safe seats and better jobs, and how they are treated perhaps in the

how they are treated perhaps in the how they are treated perhaps in the

how they are treated perhaps in the House? I don't think so. I think

House? I don't think so. I think House? I don't think so. I think

House? I don't think so. I think the times have changed. Una left as

the times have changed. Una left as the times have changed. Una left as

the times have changed. Una left as I was arriving. I had the first

I was arriving. I had the first I was arriving. I had the first

I was arriving. I had the first term in parliament when you know it

term in parliament when you know it term in parliament when you know it

term in parliament when you know it was very old school and maybe that

was very old school and maybe that was very old school and maybe that

was very old school and maybe that sort of thing went on. Then we had

sort of thing went on. Then we had sort of thing went on. Then we had

the expenses scandal. We had the the expenses scandal. We had the

the expenses scandal. We had the wholesale change of parliament in

wholesale change of parliament in wholesale change of parliament in

wholesale change of parliament in the last election. It is a much

the last election. It is a much the last election. It is a much

different parliament in the Commons, different parliament in the Commons,

different parliament in the Commons, different parliament in the Commons,

any way, than it was before. Do you any way, than it was before. Do you

any way, than it was before. Do you any way, than it was before. Do you

buy that? Not at all. Peter says it buy that? Not at all. Peter says it

buy that? Not at all. Peter says it buy that? Not at all. Peter says it

is very much changed T hasn't, it is very much changed T hasn't, it

is very much changed T hasn't, it is very much changed T hasn't, it

has gone from 20% of women MPs up has gone from 20% of women MPs up

has gone from 20% of women MPs up has gone from 20% of women MPs up

to 22%. What sort of change is that. to 22%. What sort of change is that.

to 22%. What sort of change is that. At this rate of progress, the

At this rate of progress, the At this rate of progress, the

Fawcett Society have said it will Fawcett Society have said it will

Fawcett Society have said it will Fawcett Society have said it will

take more than 100 years for there take more than 100 years for there

take more than 100 years for there take more than 100 years for there

to be parity. In that sense if it to be parity. In that sense if it

to be parity. In that sense if it is just about numbers, the quote

is just about numbers, the quote is just about numbers, the quote

is just about numbers, the quote "Blair babes" and a lot of women

"Blair babes" and a lot of women "Blair babes" and a lot of women

"Blair babes" and a lot of women coming in 1997 went out. When we

coming in 1997 went out. When we coming in 1997 went out. When we

came in we brought the total came in we brought the total

came in we brought the total came in we brought the total

numbers of women MPs up to 18%. numbers of women MPs up to 18%.

numbers of women MPs up to 18%. That still meant that 82% of

That still meant that 82% of That still meant that 82% of

That still meant that 82% of Britain's MPs were men, and yet it

Britain's MPs were men, and yet it Britain's MPs were men, and yet it

Britain's MPs were men, and yet it was our fault that we hadn't some

was our fault that we hadn't some how revolutionised parliament. It

how revolutionised parliament. It how revolutionised parliament. It

how revolutionised parliament. It is absolute nonsense. It can get a

is absolute nonsense. It can get a is absolute nonsense. It can get a

bit irritating after a while. I'm bit irritating after a while. I'm

bit irritating after a while. I'm bit irritating after a while. I'm

bit irritating after a while. I'm bored of it, and there are a lot of

bored of it, and there are a lot of bored of it, and there are a lot of

bored of it, and there are a lot of younger women who are too. It will

younger women who are too. It will younger women who are too. It will

younger women who are too. It will change. At the moment the MPs in

change. At the moment the MPs in change. At the moment the MPs in

parliament, if you talk about parliament, if you talk about

parliament, if you talk about parliament, if you talk about

change, look at the MPs under 30. change, look at the MPs under 30.

change, look at the MPs under 30. change, look at the MPs under 30.

There are 28 MPs under 30, half are There are 28 MPs under 30, half are

There are 28 MPs under 30, half are There are 28 MPs under 30, half are

women. What I'm saying is we can't women. What I'm saying is we can't

women. What I'm saying is we can't women. What I'm saying is we can't

afford to wait the decade that it afford to wait the decade that it

afford to wait the decade that it afford to wait the decade that it

will take for that change to play will take for that change to play

will take for that change to play will take for that change to play

out. I know the Labour Party isn't out. I know the Labour Party isn't

out. I know the Labour Party isn't changing but the Conservative Party

changing but the Conservative Party changing but the Conservative Party

changing but the Conservative Party is. If we just look at the current

is. If we just look at the current by-election, the Conservative

by-election, the Conservative by-election, the Conservative

candidate was a woman, the UKIP candidate was a woman, the UKIP

candidate was a woman, the UKIP candidate of a woman, Labour and

candidate of a woman, Labour and candidate of a woman, Labour and

candidate of a woman, Labour and liberals put up men. In the Corby

liberals put up men. In the Corby by-election the excellent

by-election the excellent by-election the excellent

Conservative candidate was a woman, Conservative candidate was a woman,

Conservative candidate was a woman, Conservative candidate was a woman,

Labour put up a man candidate. The Labour put up a man candidate. The

Labour put up a man candidate. The Conservative Party has changed.

Conservative Party has changed. Conservative Party has changed.

Conservative Party has changed. can you say that when 16% of your

can you say that when 16% of your can you say that when 16% of your

can you say that when 16% of your MPs are women. I have explained the

MPs are women. I have explained the MPs are women. I have explained the

MPs are women. I have explained the last two elections we had a chance

last two elections we had a chance last two elections we had a chance

of whelming -- winning were women. of whelming -- winning were women.

of whelming -- winning were women. of whelming -- winning were women.

It is very slow, and the Commons is It is very slow, and the Commons is

not factually a family-friendly not factually a family-friendly

not factually a family-friendly not factually a family-friendly

place? That is one of the issues. place? That is one of the issues.

place? That is one of the issues. place? That is one of the issues.

I'm sure my wife would have made a I'm sure my wife would have made a

I'm sure my wife would have made a very good MP. Mrs Bone probably

very good MP. Mrs Bone probably very good MP. Mrs Bone probably

very good MP. Mrs Bone probably would. She comes up a lot in Prime

would. She comes up a lot in Prime would. She comes up a lot in Prime

Minister's Questions, why is she Minister's Questions, why is she

Minister's Questions, why is she not here tonight? Because Peter's

not here tonight? Because Peter's not here tonight? Because Peter's

career was more important. She has career was more important. She has

career was more important. She has to do other things. She wouldn't

to do other things. She wouldn't to do other things. She wouldn't

say, that bringing up the three say, that bringing up the three

say, that bringing up the three children was more important to her.

children was more important to her. children was more important to her.

children was more important to her. I can't have children or bring them

I can't have children or bring them I can't have children or bring them

I can't have children or bring them up. I'm really against the idea of

up. I'm really against the idea of up. I'm really against the idea of

up. I'm really against the idea of quotas, do we have to have X number

quotas, do we have to have X number quotas, do we have to have X number

quotas, do we have to have X number of men and women. Do we have X

of men and women. Do we have X of men and women. Do we have X

number of people from state number of people from state

number of people from state education, and X number of people

education, and X number of people education, and X number of people

from minorities. You say you are from minorities. You say you are

from minorities. You say you are from minorities. You say you are

against quotas, and this is what is against quotas, and this is what is

against quotas, and this is what is against quotas, and this is what is

so irritating as W you want the so irritating as W you want the

so irritating as W you want the best person. How come that

best person. How come that best person. How come that

essentially for the last 500 years essentially for the last 500 years

essentially for the last 500 years we have had a male-only shortlist.

we have had a male-only shortlist. we have had a male-only shortlist.

we have had a male-only shortlist. Don't tell me a lot of those

Don't tell me a lot of those Don't tell me a lot of those

mediocre people that became MPs mediocre people that became MPs

mediocre people that became MPs because they were men some how

because they were men some how because they were men some how

deserved T they didn't. The system deserved T they didn't. The system

deserved T they didn't. The system deserved T they didn't. The system

works in their favour. It is about works in their favour. It is about

works in their favour. It is about changing the system. When the

changing the system. When the changing the system. When the

Labour had the leadership election Labour had the leadership election

Labour had the leadership election Labour had the leadership election

there was a token woman. There was there was a token woman. There was

there was a token woman. There was Diane Abbott. She was a stoken

Diane Abbott. She was a stoken Diane Abbott. She was a stoken

Diane Abbott. She was a stoken woman? You went from 9% up to 16%,

woman? You went from 9% up to 16%, woman? You went from 9% up to 16%,

woman? You went from 9% up to 16%, you are right, that is a change.

you are right, that is a change. you are right, that is a change.

you are right, that is a change. But it is a minuscule amount going

But it is a minuscule amount going But it is a minuscule amount going

But it is a minuscule amount going to a very small amount. It is

to a very small amount. It is to a very small amount. It is

to a very small amount. It is improvement. But you were so bad to

improvement. But you were so bad to improvement. But you were so bad to

improvement. But you were so bad to start with. Would you accept on the

start with. Would you accept on the start with. Would you accept on the

start with. Would you accept on the basis of what you said, that your

basis of what you said, that your basis of what you said, that your

wife wanting to bring up children, wife wanting to bring up children,

wife wanting to bring up children, that women have to make more

that women have to make more that women have to make more

sacrifices to get into parliament sacrifices to get into parliament

sacrifices to get into parliament sacrifices to get into parliament

and do you accept that? Yes, I had and do you accept that? Yes, I had

and do you accept that? Yes, I had and do you accept that? Yes, I had

to put my three kids to bed before to put my three kids to bed before

to put my three kids to bed before to put my three kids to bed before

I came here tonight, of course it I came here tonight, of course it

I came here tonight, of course it I came here tonight, of course it

is harder. But there are a lot of is harder. But there are a lot of

is harder. But there are a lot of is harder. But there are a lot of

male MPs who would prefer to be male MPs who would prefer to be

male MPs who would prefer to be male MPs who would prefer to be

able to spend more time with their able to spend more time with their

able to spend more time with their able to spend more time with their

kid. It would help men and women. kid. It would help men and women.

kid. It would help men and women. kid. It would help men and women.

kid. It would help men and women. It is an issue that I have at the