05/03/2013 Newsnight


05/03/2013

Can the Chief Exec of the NHS see through its reforms? Also, why are suicide rates so much higher amongst men than women? And what's behind the Dow's all time high?


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This programme contains scenes of This programme contains scenes of

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This programme contains scenes of flash photography from the start.

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flash photography from the start. flash photography from the start.

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I promised both the Government and I promised both the Government and

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I promised both the Government and I promised both the Government and

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the NHS that I would see that through.

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through. through.

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Today the chief executive of the Today the chief executive of the

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Today the chief executive of the NHS faced down calls for his

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NHS faced down calls for his NHS faced down calls for his

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resignation, after his role in the resignation, after his role in the

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resignation, after his role in the Mid Staffs scandal. Is he really

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Mid Staffs scandal. Is he really Mid Staffs scandal. Is he really

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Mid Staffs scandal. Is he really the man to lead the health service

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the man to lead the health service the man to lead the health service

:00:23.:00:23.

in England through a massive in England through a massive

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in England through a massive overhaul? We will ask the

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Government. Government.

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Government. Government.

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Within the last hour it has been Within the last hour it has been

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announced that Venezuela's announced that Venezuela's

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announced that Venezuela's President, Hugo Chavez, has died.

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President, Hugo Chavez, has died. President, Hugo Chavez, has died.

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We will have the latest. We will have the latest.

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We will have the latest. Also tonight, why are middle-aged

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Also tonight, why are middle-aged Also tonight, why are middle-aged

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men so desperate that they take men so desperate that they take

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men so desperate that they take their own lives. What has gone

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their own lives. What has gone their own lives. What has gone

:00:40.:00:41.

their own lives. What has gone wrong? When you are there and you

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wrong? When you are there and you wrong? When you are there and you

:00:42.:00:42.

wrong? When you are there and you have that mental anguish, it is a

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have that mental anguish, it is a have that mental anguish, it is a

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cloud, a black cloud that cloud, a black cloud that

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cloud, a black cloud that completely envelops you. You can't

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completely envelops you. You can't see through it.

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see through it. see through it.

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see through it. What can we do about it? I will

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What can we do about it? I will What can we do about it? I will

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What can we do about it? I will speak to the Government and to the

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Samaritans. Samaritans.

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Samaritans. # We're an all-time high

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# We're an all-time high # We're an all-time high

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# We're an all-time high The Dow Jones hits an all-time high,

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The Dow Jones hits an all-time high, The Dow Jones hits an all-time high,

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The Dow Jones hits an all-time high, is it something to cheer or jeer.

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is it something to cheer or jeer. is it something to cheer or jeer.

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The markets are going good, but The markets are going good, but

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where's the growth. where's the growth.

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where's the growth. Good evening, just before we came

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Good evening, just before we came Good evening, just before we came

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Good evening, just before we came on air it was announced that Hugo

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on air it was announced that Hugo on air it was announced that Hugo

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Chavez, the fiery populist leader Chavez, the fiery populist leader

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Chavez, the fiery populist leader of Venezuela has died, after

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of Venezuela has died, after of Venezuela has died, after

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suffering from cancer for two years. suffering from cancer for two years.

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suffering from cancer for two years. suffering from cancer for two years.

:01:27.:01:28.

In power for 14 years, Chavez is In power for 14 years, Chavez is

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In power for 14 years, Chavez is wildly credited with championing a

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wildly credited with championing a leftist rerival across Latin

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America. America.

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America. America.

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We have the latest. First of all, We have the latest. First of all,

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We have the latest. First of all, Hugo Chavez hadn't been seen in

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Hugo Chavez hadn't been seen in Hugo Chavez hadn't been seen in

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public since December. It can't be public since December. It can't be

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public since December. It can't be unexpected, but what has the

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unexpected, but what has the reaction of Venezuelans within?

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reaction of Venezuelans within? reaction of Venezuelans within?

:01:48.:01:49.

They have been thinking that, the They have been thinking that, the

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They have been thinking that, the majority of the people have been

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majority of the people have been majority of the people have been

:01:51.:01:52.

thinking that Hugo Chavez might thinking that Hugo Chavez might

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thinking that Hugo Chavez might actually make it through once more.

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actually make it through once more. actually make it through once more.

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actually make it through once more. He has been sick, he was sick with

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He has been sick, he was sick with He has been sick, he was sick with

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He has been sick, he was sick with cancer for two years, and he came

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cancer for two years, and he came cancer for two years, and he came

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back several times saying he had back several times saying he had

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back several times saying he had been cured. A release last week

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been cured. A release last week been cured. A release last week

:02:09.:02:10.

showed that the majority of the showed that the majority of the

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showed that the majority of the people, 60%, thought he might make

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people, 60%, thought he might make people, 60%, thought he might make

:02:13.:02:14.

it through this time. Reactions it through this time. Reactions

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it through this time. Reactions will be very different. Chavez

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will be very different. Chavez will be very different. Chavez

:02:18.:02:19.

supporters are going to be morning supporters are going to be morning

:02:19.:02:21.

supporters are going to be morning supporters are going to be morning

:02:21.:02:22.

the President for a very long time. the President for a very long time.

:02:22.:02:23.

the President for a very long time. At the same time the opposition

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At the same time the opposition At the same time the opposition

:02:25.:02:26.

At the same time the opposition feels that they are finally rid of

:02:26.:02:27.

feels that they are finally rid of feels that they are finally rid of

:02:27.:02:29.

feels that they are finally rid of one of the worst leaders in the

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one of the worst leaders in the one of the worst leaders in the

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one of the worst leaders in the history of the country. He was a

:02:31.:02:33.

history of the country. He was a history of the country. He was a

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hugely divisive leader, a hero of hugely divisive leader, a hero of

:02:35.:02:36.

hugely divisive leader, a hero of hugely divisive leader, a hero of

:02:37.:02:38.

the poor, and not afraid of some the poor, and not afraid of some

:02:38.:02:40.

pretty strong anti-American rhetoric.

:02:40.:02:44.

rhetoric. rhetoric.

:02:44.:02:45.

That's right, just today the Vice That's right, just today the Vice

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That's right, just today the Vice President actually used some of the

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President actually used some of the President actually used some of the

:02:51.:02:52.

Chavez rhetoric. Talking about how Chavez rhetoric. Talking about how

:02:52.:02:54.

Chavez rhetoric. Talking about how Chavez rhetoric. Talking about how

:02:55.:02:55.

it was the western powers who had it was the western powers who had

:02:55.:02:56.

it was the western powers who had inoculated the cancer into the

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inoculated the cancer into the inoculated the cancer into the

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President, and he actually expelled President, and he actually expelled

:03:01.:03:01.

President, and he actually expelled two US military attaches, saying

:03:02.:03:05.

two US military attaches, saying two US military attaches, saying

:03:05.:03:06.

they were plotting against the Government.

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Government. Government.

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This kind of rhetoric was classic This kind of rhetoric was classic

:03:08.:03:10.

This kind of rhetoric was classic This kind of rhetoric was classic

:03:10.:03:11.

from Mr Chavez, it means that the from Mr Chavez, it means that the

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from Mr Chavez, it means that the Vice President is now continuing

:03:12.:03:14.

Vice President is now continuing with that tradition.

:03:14.:03:16.

with that tradition. Thank you very much.

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Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

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Thank you very much. We will come back to Hugo Chavez's

:03:18.:03:19.

We will come back to Hugo Chavez's We will come back to Hugo Chavez's

:03:19.:03:20.

We will come back to Hugo Chavez's Death In Venice wail la later in

:03:20.:03:22.

the programme. the programme.

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the programme. the programme.

:03:23.:03:24.

The man who was in charge of The man who was in charge of

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The man who was in charge of leading the NHS in England, through

:03:26.:03:27.

leading the NHS in England, through leading the NHS in England, through

:03:27.:03:28.

a major overhaul, today faced a major overhaul, today faced

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a major overhaul, today faced further calls for his resignation.

:03:29.:03:32.

further calls for his resignation. further calls for his resignation.

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further calls for his resignation. For it was the same man, David

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For it was the same man, David For it was the same man, David

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Nicholson, who, according to his Nicholson, who, according to his

:03:36.:03:37.

Nicholson, who, according to his critics, presided over one of the

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critics, presided over one of the critics, presided over one of the

:03:38.:03:39.

biggest scandals in the health biggest scandals in the health

:03:39.:03:43.

biggest scandals in the health service, the Mid Staffs Foundation

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service, the Mid Staffs Foundation service, the Mid Staffs Foundation

:03:44.:03:48.

Trust. Today as chief executive of Trust. Today as chief executive of

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Trust. Today as chief executive of Trust. Today as chief executive of

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the NHS he told the Commons Select the NHS he told the Commons Select

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the NHS he told the Commons Select Committee that he has apologised to

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Committee that he has apologised to Committee that he has apologised to

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the families affected. He may the families affected. He may

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the families affected. He may the families affected. He may

:03:53.:03:53.

continue to have the support of the continue to have the support of the

:03:53.:03:54.

continue to have the support of the Prime Minister, but does he have

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Prime Minister, but does he have Prime Minister, but does he have

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the confidence of NHS staff and patients.

:04:00.:04:01.

patients. patients.

:04:01.:04:03.

The scandal at Stafford Hospital The scandal at Stafford Hospital

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The scandal at Stafford Hospital rocked the NHS, years of horrific

:04:05.:04:07.

rocked the NHS, years of horrific rocked the NHS, years of horrific

:04:07.:04:08.

neglect of patients, that the QC neglect of patients, that the QC

:04:08.:04:09.

neglect of patients, that the QC Robert Francis examined and called

:04:09.:04:10.

Robert Francis examined and called Robert Francis examined and called

:04:10.:04:12.

an appalling failure at every level. an appalling failure at every level.

:04:12.:04:13.

an appalling failure at every level. an appalling failure at every level.

:04:13.:04:14.

He deened maed a change in culture He deened maed a change in culture

:04:14.:04:15.

He deened maed a change in culture -- demanded a change in culture

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-- demanded a change in culture -- demanded a change in culture

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that puts patients first. Just as that puts patients first. Just as

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that puts patients first. Just as the NHS in England faces arguably

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the NHS in England faces arguably the NHS in England faces arguably

:04:23.:04:24.

its biggest-ever shake had-up. This its biggest-ever shake had-up. This

:04:24.:04:25.

its biggest-ever shake had-up. This whole process is supposed to be

:04:25.:04:26.

whole process is supposed to be whole process is supposed to be

:04:26.:04:27.

whole process is supposed to be about finding the best way to run

:04:27.:04:28.

about finding the best way to run about finding the best way to run

:04:28.:04:28.

about finding the best way to run the NHS to benefit us, the patients.

:04:28.:04:29.

the NHS to benefit us, the patients. the NHS to benefit us, the patients.

:04:29.:04:30.

There have been so many There have been so many

:04:30.:04:31.

reorganisations in recent years, reorganisations in recent years,

:04:31.:04:32.

reorganisations in recent years, reorganisations in recent years,

:04:32.:04:33.

yet we still don't seem to have yet we still don't seem to have

:04:33.:04:34.

yet we still don't seem to have found the right prescription. And

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found the right prescription. And found the right prescription. And

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found the right prescription. And now, there is about to be yet

:04:37.:04:38.

now, there is about to be yet another major upheaval.

:04:38.:04:39.

another major upheaval. another major upheaval.

:04:39.:04:41.

another major upheaval. And the man in charge of making

:04:41.:04:43.

And the man in charge of making And the man in charge of making

:04:43.:04:44.

that reorganisation work is also that reorganisation work is also

:04:44.:04:46.

that reorganisation work is also the focus of patients' anger over

:04:46.:04:47.

the focus of patients' anger over the focus of patients' anger over

:04:47.:04:48.

Stafford. Sir David Nicholson was Stafford. Sir David Nicholson was

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Stafford. Sir David Nicholson was responsible for the Trust that ran

:04:49.:04:50.

responsible for the Trust that ran responsible for the Trust that ran

:04:50.:04:51.

responsible for the Trust that ran ZAF Ford Hospital, as head of its

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ZAF Ford Hospital, as head of its ZAF Ford Hospital, as head of its

:04:52.:04:54.

regional health authority, for part regional health authority, for part

:04:54.:04:55.

regional health authority, for part of the time when patients were

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of the time when patients were of the time when patients were

:04:58.:04:59.

neglected. He has been chief neglected. He has been chief

:04:59.:05:01.

neglected. He has been chief executive of England's NHS since

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executive of England's NHS since executive of England's NHS since

:05:03.:05:04.

executive of England's NHS since 22006. In front of MPs at the

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22006. In front of MPs at the Health Select Committee this

:05:05.:05:06.

Health Select Committee this Health Select Committee this

:05:06.:05:07.

Health Select Committee this morning, this was his moment to set

:05:07.:05:09.

morning, this was his moment to set morning, this was his moment to set

:05:09.:05:09.

morning, this was his moment to set out why he should stay. We will

:05:09.:05:10.

out why he should stay. We will out why he should stay. We will

:05:10.:05:13.

completely change the way in which completely change the way in which

:05:13.:05:14.

we allocate resources and we allocate resources and

:05:14.:05:15.

we allocate resources and incentivise the NHS. And at the

:05:15.:05:17.

incentivise the NHS. And at the incentivise the NHS. And at the

:05:17.:05:18.

incentivise the NHS. And at the same time, we are losing, we have

:05:18.:05:21.

same time, we are losing, we have already lost 13,500 administrative

:05:21.:05:22.

already lost 13,500 administrative already lost 13,500 administrative

:05:22.:05:23.

and managing staff, who have all and managing staff, who have all

:05:23.:05:25.

and managing staff, who have all that corporate memory in them. It

:05:25.:05:26.

that corporate memory in them. It that corporate memory in them. It

:05:26.:05:28.

that corporate memory in them. It is at maximum risk over the next

:05:28.:05:31.

is at maximum risk over the next is at maximum risk over the next

:05:31.:05:33.

is at maximum risk over the next few days. I said two years Agatha I

:05:33.:05:34.

few days. I said two years Agatha I few days. I said two years Agatha I

:05:34.:05:36.

would take the responsibility -- would take the responsibility --

:05:36.:05:37.

would take the responsibility -- ago that I would take the

:05:37.:05:39.

ago that I would take the ago that I would take the

:05:39.:05:41.

responsibility of leading the NHS responsibility of leading the NHS

:05:41.:05:41.

responsibility of leading the NHS through this enormously complex set

:05:41.:05:48.

through this enormously complex set through this enormously complex set

:05:48.:05:49.

of changes. I promised the of changes. I promised the

:05:49.:05:50.

of changes. I promised the of changes. I promised the

:05:50.:05:50.

Government and the NHS I would see Government and the NHS I would see

:05:51.:05:52.

Government and the NHS I would see Government and the NHS I would see

:05:52.:05:53.

it through. Sir David was asked if it through. Sir David was asked if

:05:53.:05:54.

it through. Sir David was asked if it through. Sir David was asked if

:05:54.:05:54.

he was a process man? He spent he was a process man? He spent

:05:55.:05:57.

he was a process man? He spent he was a process man? He spent

:05:57.:05:58.

years at the heart of an NHS system, years at the heart of an NHS system,

:05:58.:05:59.

years at the heart of an NHS system, years at the heart of an NHS system,

:05:59.:06:00.

which he said at the time of the which he said at the time of the

:06:00.:06:02.

which he said at the time of the deaths in Stafford wasn't equipped

:06:02.:06:05.

deaths in Stafford wasn't equipped deaths in Stafford wasn't equipped

:06:05.:06:06.

or capable of monitoring the people or capable of monitoring the people

:06:06.:06:07.

or capable of monitoring the people or capable of monitoring the people

:06:07.:06:08.

in its care. One member of the in its care. One member of the

:06:08.:06:09.

committee, clearly frustrated, committee, clearly frustrated,

:06:09.:06:11.

committee, clearly frustrated, committee, clearly frustrated,

:06:11.:06:14.

asked if he might have spent less asked if he might have spent less

:06:14.:06:14.

asked if he might have spent less time here at the Department of

:06:15.:06:16.

time here at the Department of time here at the Department of

:06:16.:06:17.

Health and more with patients. Health and more with patients.

:06:17.:06:18.

Health and more with patients. Health and more with patients.

:06:18.:06:19.

were there in the middle and you were there in the middle and you

:06:19.:06:19.

were there in the middle and you didn't understand it, we are trying

:06:20.:06:21.

didn't understand it, we are trying didn't understand it, we are trying

:06:21.:06:22.

didn't understand it, we are trying to work out how to make it better

:06:22.:06:24.

to work out how to make it better to work out how to make it better

:06:24.:06:25.

to work out how to make it better for the future F it means you come

:06:25.:06:26.

for the future F it means you come for the future F it means you come

:06:26.:06:27.

for the future F it means you come out of Richmond House and feed a

:06:27.:06:28.

out of Richmond House and feed a out of Richmond House and feed a

:06:28.:06:29.

out of Richmond House and feed a few more patients and see a few

:06:29.:06:30.

few more patients and see a few few more patients and see a few

:06:30.:06:31.

more patients, maybe that is what more patients, maybe that is what

:06:31.:06:32.

more patients, maybe that is what you should be doing. Do you

:06:32.:06:33.

you should be doing. Do you you should be doing. Do you

:06:33.:06:34.

understand my drift. You are a understand my drift. You are a

:06:34.:06:37.

understand my drift. You are a understand my drift. You are a

:06:37.:06:38.

process man? I'm no a process man, process man? I'm no a process man,

:06:38.:06:40.

process man? I'm no a process man, I went round those hospitals in

:06:40.:06:41.

I went round those hospitals in I went round those hospitals in

:06:41.:06:42.

Stafford. I was responsible for 50 Stafford. I was responsible for 50

:06:42.:06:43.

Stafford. I was responsible for 50 hospitals across that place, I

:06:43.:06:44.

hospitals across that place, I hospitals across that place, I

:06:44.:06:46.

probably visited all of them. probably visited all of them.

:06:46.:06:47.

probably visited all of them. probably visited all of them.

:06:47.:06:47.

David said that at the time things David said that at the time things

:06:47.:06:49.

David said that at the time things were going wrong at Stafford, the

:06:49.:06:51.

were going wrong at Stafford, the were going wrong at Stafford, the

:06:51.:06:52.

NHS had no culture of sharing NHS had no culture of sharing

:06:52.:06:53.

NHS had no culture of sharing information. And that he was not

:06:53.:06:54.

information. And that he was not information. And that he was not

:06:54.:06:55.

information. And that he was not aware that death rates at the Trust

:06:55.:06:57.

aware that death rates at the Trust aware that death rates at the Trust

:06:57.:06:59.

were higher than expected. He were higher than expected. He

:06:59.:07:00.

were higher than expected. He didn't blame politicians, but said

:07:00.:07:01.

didn't blame politicians, but said constant reorganisations had

:07:01.:07:02.

constant reorganisations had created confusion about

:07:02.:07:03.

created confusion about created confusion about

:07:03.:07:05.

accountability. And now he's about accountability. And now he's about

:07:05.:07:09.

accountability. And now he's about to oversee the next one. The

:07:09.:07:10.

to oversee the next one. The to oversee the next one. The

:07:10.:07:12.

headline change will see a greater headline change will see a greater

:07:12.:07:13.

headline change will see a greater involvement for GPs. At the moment

:07:13.:07:14.

involvement for GPs. At the moment involvement for GPs. At the moment

:07:15.:07:15.

the Health Secretary sets NHS the Health Secretary sets NHS

:07:15.:07:16.

the Health Secretary sets NHS policies, which the Department of

:07:16.:07:19.

policies, which the Department of policies, which the Department of

:07:19.:07:19.

Health passes down through ten Health passes down through ten

:07:19.:07:21.

strategic health authorities. 152 strategic health authorities. 152

:07:21.:07:23.

strategic health authorities. 152 Primary Care Trusts see those

:07:23.:07:24.

Primary Care Trusts see those policies are implemented,

:07:24.:07:26.

policies are implemented, policies are implemented,

:07:26.:07:27.

controlling the lion's share of controlling the lion's share of

:07:27.:07:28.

controlling the lion's share of spending. From April those Trusts

:07:28.:07:31.

spending. From April those Trusts spending. From April those Trusts

:07:31.:07:32.

will be replaced by 212 Clinical will be replaced by 212 Clinical

:07:32.:07:32.

Commissioning Groupss, largely made Commissioning Groupss, largely made

:07:33.:07:34.

Commissioning Groupss, largely made Commissioning Groupss, largely made

:07:34.:07:35.

up of GPs, who will take over the up of GPs, who will take over the

:07:35.:07:36.

up of GPs, who will take over the responsibility for the majority of

:07:36.:07:37.

responsibility for the majority of responsibility for the majority of

:07:37.:07:39.

local spending. These groups will local spending. These groups will

:07:39.:07:40.

local spending. These groups will ultimately be answerable to a new

:07:41.:07:42.

ultimately be answerable to a new ultimately be answerable to a new

:07:42.:07:42.

NHS Commissioning Board, with Sir NHS Commissioning Board, with Sir

:07:43.:07:44.

NHS Commissioning Board, with Sir David Nicholson at its helm. Which

:07:44.:07:45.

David Nicholson at its helm. Which David Nicholson at its helm. Which

:07:46.:07:47.

will take charge of overseeing the will take charge of overseeing the

:07:47.:07:49.

will take charge of overseeing the NHS from the Department of Health.

:07:49.:07:50.

NHS from the Department of Health. NHS from the Department of Health.

:07:51.:07:51.

Then this afternoon, just weeks Then this afternoon, just weeks

:07:51.:07:52.

Then this afternoon, just weeks away from this wholesale change,

:07:52.:07:54.

away from this wholesale change, away from this wholesale change,

:07:54.:07:55.

the Government announced it will the Government announced it will

:07:55.:07:58.

the Government announced it will rewrite the rules, after medics and

:07:58.:08:02.

rewrite the rules, after medics and rewrite the rules, after medics and

:08:02.:08:03.

Labour claimed this these would Labour claimed this these would

:08:03.:08:04.

allow backdoor privatisation. Sir allow backdoor privatisation. Sir

:08:04.:08:05.

allow backdoor privatisation. Sir allow backdoor privatisation. Sir

:08:05.:08:07.

David said he does have regrets, he David said he does have regrets, he

:08:07.:08:09.

David said he does have regrets, he David said he does have regrets, he

:08:09.:08:11.

says he wished he had fete the cure says he wished he had fete the cure

:08:11.:08:12.

says he wished he had fete the cure says he wished he had fete the cure

:08:12.:08:13.

the NHS group. We need to listen to the NHS group. We need to listen to

:08:13.:08:14.

the NHS group. We need to listen to the NHS group. We need to listen to

:08:14.:08:16.

the frontline, that is all we need the frontline, that is all we need

:08:16.:08:18.

the frontline, that is all we need the frontline, that is all we need

:08:18.:08:20.

to do. What tends to happen, is we to do. What tends to happen, is we

:08:20.:08:22.

have initiative after initiative, have initiative after initiative,

:08:22.:08:24.

have initiative after initiative, all top-down, frontline are so

:08:24.:08:25.

all top-down, frontline are so all top-down, frontline are so

:08:25.:08:26.

confused as to what initiative they confused as to what initiative they

:08:26.:08:27.

confused as to what initiative they confused as to what initiative they

:08:27.:08:28.

are even working to this week. Put are even working to this week. Put

:08:28.:08:29.

are even working to this week. Put are even working to this week. Put

:08:29.:08:29.

it back into the hands of the it back into the hands of the

:08:29.:08:30.

it back into the hands of the frontline staff, nurses and doctors,

:08:30.:08:31.

frontline staff, nurses and doctors, frontline staff, nurses and doctors,

:08:31.:08:32.

frontline staff, nurses and doctors, they are the ones who know what

:08:32.:08:35.

patients need. patients need.

:08:35.:08:36.

patients need. Sir David said's made significant

:08:36.:08:37.

Sir David said's made significant Sir David said's made significant

:08:37.:08:38.

changes as a result of Robert changes as a result of Robert

:08:38.:08:39.

changes as a result of Robert Francis's inquiry, and said the

:08:39.:08:40.

Francis's inquiry, and said the Francis's inquiry, and said the

:08:40.:08:42.

system has never had the sharp system has never had the sharp

:08:42.:08:44.

system has never had the sharp accountability it has now. I think

:08:44.:08:45.

accountability it has now. I think accountability it has now. I think

:08:45.:08:47.

David Nicholson is a good manager. David Nicholson is a good manager.

:08:47.:08:48.

David Nicholson is a good manager. David Nicholson is a good manager.

:08:48.:08:50.

And in some respects he's done an And in some respects he's done an

:08:50.:08:51.

And in some respects he's done an And in some respects he's done an

:08:51.:08:52.

excellent job. But I think the real excellent job. But I think the real

:08:52.:08:53.

excellent job. But I think the real excellent job. But I think the real

:08:53.:08:54.

lesson that has come out of it, is lesson that has come out of it, is

:08:54.:08:55.

lesson that has come out of it, is lesson that has come out of it, is

:08:55.:08:56.

if even a good man and a good if even a good man and a good

:08:56.:08:57.

if even a good man and a good manager like David Nicholson can't

:08:57.:09:00.

manager like David Nicholson can't manager like David Nicholson can't

:09:00.:09:00.

actually run the system effectively, actually run the system effectively,

:09:00.:09:01.

actually run the system effectively, it shows us there is something

:09:01.:09:02.

it shows us there is something it shows us there is something

:09:02.:09:03.

it shows us there is something wrong with the system. What we need

:09:03.:09:04.

wrong with the system. What we need wrong with the system. What we need

:09:04.:09:05.

wrong with the system. What we need in the future is not another David

:09:05.:09:07.

in the future is not another David in the future is not another David

:09:07.:09:08.

in the future is not another David Nicholson, it may not even be David

:09:08.:09:09.

Nicholson, it may not even be David Nicholson, it may not even be David

:09:09.:09:11.

Nicholson himself, it is a Nicholson himself, it is a

:09:11.:09:12.

decentralised system that relies decentralised system that relies

:09:13.:09:13.

decentralised system that relies much more upon patients and local

:09:13.:09:14.

much more upon patients and local much more upon patients and local

:09:14.:09:17.

commissioners to do the job. commissioners to do the job.

:09:17.:09:18.

commissioners to do the job. It seems pretty unlikely that Sir

:09:18.:09:19.

It seems pretty unlikely that Sir It seems pretty unlikely that Sir

:09:19.:09:21.

It seems pretty unlikely that Sir It seems pretty unlikely that Sir

:09:21.:09:22.

David will go now, in the run up to David will go now, in the run up to

:09:22.:09:23.

structural change. Afterall, the structural change. Afterall, the

:09:23.:09:25.

structural change. Afterall, the structural change. Afterall, the

:09:25.:09:27.

plan for the NHS to make �20 plan for the NHS to make �20

:09:27.:09:28.

plan for the NHS to make �20 billion worth of efficiency savings

:09:28.:09:30.

billion worth of efficiency savings billion worth of efficiency savings

:09:30.:09:32.

carries his name, the Nicholson Challenge.

:09:32.:09:33.

Challenge. Challenge.

:09:33.:09:37.

The Health Minister, Norman Lam is with me.

:09:38.:09:42.

with me. with me.

:09:42.:09:43.

with me. -- Norman Lamb, is with me. How can

:09:43.:09:44.

-- Norman Lamb, is with me. How can -- Norman Lamb, is with me. How can

:09:44.:09:45.

-- Norman Lamb, is with me. How can -- Norman Lamb, is with me. How can

:09:45.:09:46.

a man who this went on under on his a man who this went on under on his

:09:46.:09:49.

a man who this went on under on his patch have your confidence?

:09:49.:09:50.

patch have your confidence? patch have your confidence?

:09:50.:09:51.

people questioning on the clip people questioning on the clip

:09:51.:09:52.

people questioning on the clip there got it absolutely right. What

:09:52.:09:53.

there got it absolutely right. What there got it absolutely right. What

:09:54.:09:55.

we need to do is devolve we need to do is devolve

:09:55.:09:56.

we need to do is devolve responsibility so the clinicians on

:09:56.:09:57.

responsibility so the clinicians on the frontline have responsibility

:09:57.:09:58.

the frontline have responsibility the frontline have responsibility

:09:59.:10:01.

for the services. This is the for the services. This is the

:10:01.:10:03.

Nicholson Challenge? The Nicholson Nicholson Challenge? The Nicholson

:10:03.:10:05.

Challenge is about echeefg Challenge is about echeefg

:10:05.:10:07.

efficiency changes across the efficiency changes across the

:10:07.:10:08.

efficiency changes across the system, which is necessary to

:10:08.:10:10.

system, which is necessary to system, which is necessary to

:10:10.:10:11.

ensure the NHS is sustainable. This ensure the NHS is sustainable. This

:10:11.:10:12.

ensure the NHS is sustainable. This ensure the NHS is sustainable. This

:10:12.:10:13.

idea that there is one man or idea that there is one man or

:10:13.:10:14.

idea that there is one man or idea that there is one man or

:10:14.:10:16.

individual in charge of the NHS, is individual in charge of the NHS, is

:10:16.:10:17.

individual in charge of the NHS, is the outdated thinking we have to

:10:17.:10:18.

the outdated thinking we have to the outdated thinking we have to

:10:18.:10:20.

the outdated thinking we have to move on from. Julie Bailey got it

:10:20.:10:21.

move on from. Julie Bailey got it right about frontline clinicians

:10:22.:10:23.

right about frontline clinicians right about frontline clinicians

:10:23.:10:24.

being responsible and in charge. being responsible and in charge.

:10:24.:10:25.

being responsible and in charge. All those deaths in Mid Staffs,

:10:25.:10:27.

All those deaths in Mid Staffs, All those deaths in Mid Staffs,

:10:27.:10:28.

either from abuse or neglect, how either from abuse or neglect, how

:10:28.:10:29.

either from abuse or neglect, how either from abuse or neglect, how

:10:29.:10:30.

can you look relatives in the eye can you look relatives in the eye

:10:30.:10:30.

can you look relatives in the eye can you look relatives in the eye

:10:31.:10:32.

can you look relatives in the eye and say this is the man for the job,

:10:32.:10:33.

and say this is the man for the job, and say this is the man for the job,

:10:33.:10:34.

and say this is the man for the job, to reform the whole of the NHS in

:10:34.:10:34.

to reform the whole of the NHS in to reform the whole of the NHS in

:10:35.:10:36.

to reform the whole of the NHS in England, this is the man? In a way

:10:36.:10:37.

England, this is the man? In a way England, this is the man? In a way

:10:37.:10:37.

England, this is the man? In a way England, this is the man? In a way

:10:37.:10:38.

it would be easy for us to make him it would be easy for us to make him

:10:38.:10:39.

it would be easy for us to make him the fall guy and make him

:10:39.:10:41.

the fall guy and make him the fall guy and make him

:10:41.:10:41.

responsible for everything. I think responsible for everything. I think

:10:41.:10:43.

responsible for everything. I think the problems go much deeper than

:10:43.:10:44.

the problems go much deeper than the problems go much deeper than

:10:44.:10:46.

the problems go much deeper than that. There has to be a bit of

:10:46.:10:47.

that. There has to be a bit of political accountability here. Who

:10:47.:10:48.

political accountability here. Who political accountability here. Who

:10:48.:10:49.

political accountability here. Who was in charge at that time. He was

:10:49.:10:50.

was in charge at that time. He was was in charge at that time. He was

:10:50.:10:51.

was in charge at that time. He was a civil servant carrying out, in a

:10:51.:10:53.

a civil servant carrying out, in a sense, his responsibility, but

:10:53.:10:54.

sense, his responsibility, but sense, his responsibility, but

:10:54.:10:55.

there has to be political there has to be political

:10:55.:10:56.

there has to be political responsibility for the way in which

:10:56.:10:58.

responsibility for the way in which responsibility for the way in which

:10:58.:10:59.

responsibility for the way in which the NHS was run. And the fact that

:10:59.:11:01.

the NHS was run. And the fact that the NHS was run. And the fact that

:11:01.:11:02.

targets in a way trumped everything. targets in a way trumped everything.

:11:02.:11:03.

targets in a way trumped everything. We lost sight of patient care,

:11:03.:11:04.

We lost sight of patient care, We lost sight of patient care,

:11:04.:11:05.

We lost sight of patient care, which has to be the most important

:11:05.:11:06.

which has to be the most important which has to be the most important

:11:06.:11:07.

which has to be the most important thing. A quick one before I finish

:11:07.:11:08.

thing. A quick one before I finish thing. A quick one before I finish

:11:08.:11:09.

thing. A quick one before I finish on this, this is days from this

:11:09.:11:10.

on this, this is days from this on this, this is days from this

:11:10.:11:11.

change, and he himself is saying change, and he himself is saying

:11:11.:11:12.

change, and he himself is saying these are the most critical days

:11:12.:11:13.

these are the most critical days these are the most critical days

:11:13.:11:14.

these are the most critical days for the NHS coming up. Yet there

:11:14.:11:16.

for the NHS coming up. Yet there for the NHS coming up. Yet there

:11:16.:11:16.

for the NHS coming up. Yet there was an abitary dismissal of a key

:11:16.:11:20.

was an abitary dismissal of a key was an abitary dismissal of a key

:11:20.:11:21.

element of the -- an arbitary element of the -- an arbitary

:11:21.:11:22.

element of the -- an arbitary element of the -- an arbitary

:11:22.:11:27.

dismissal of a key element of it. dismissal of a key element of it.

:11:27.:11:29.

dismissal of a key element of it. We gave clear commitments in the

:11:29.:11:30.

We gave clear commitments in the We gave clear commitments in the

:11:31.:11:31.

House of Lords about ensuring that House of Lords about ensuring that

:11:31.:11:32.

Clinical Commissioning Groupss Clinical Commissioning Groupss

:11:32.:11:33.

Clinical Commissioning Groupss Clinical Commissioning Groupss

:11:33.:11:34.

would be in charge of decisions and would be in charge of decisions and

:11:34.:11:35.

would be in charge of decisions and not forced to do competition where

:11:35.:11:36.

not forced to do competition where not forced to do competition where

:11:36.:11:37.

not forced to do competition where it was not appropriate. We want to

:11:37.:11:39.

it was not appropriate. We want to it was not appropriate. We want to

:11:39.:11:41.

make sure that the regulations make sure that the regulations

:11:41.:11:42.

faithfully implement that faithfully implement that

:11:42.:11:43.

faithfully implement that commitment. We will be back with

:11:43.:11:43.

commitment. We will be back with commitment. We will be back with

:11:43.:11:44.

commitment. We will be back with you in a few moments on another

:11:44.:11:46.

you in a few moments on another you in a few moments on another

:11:46.:11:47.

subject. With me is Sean Worth, subject. With me is Sean Worth,

:11:47.:11:48.

subject. With me is Sean Worth, former special adviser to David

:11:48.:11:50.

former special adviser to David former special adviser to David

:11:50.:11:51.

Cameron, who now works at the Cameron, who now works at the

:11:52.:11:53.

Cameron, who now works at the think-tank, Policy Exchange, and in

:11:53.:11:56.

think-tank, Policy Exchange, and in think-tank, Policy Exchange, and in

:11:56.:11:58.

Plymouth is Dr Heather Wood, who Plymouth is Dr Heather Wood, who

:11:58.:12:00.

led the healthcare investigation led the healthcare investigation

:12:00.:12:01.

led the healthcare investigation into the Mid Staffordshire Health

:12:01.:12:03.

into the Mid Staffordshire Health into the Mid Staffordshire Health

:12:03.:12:04.

Trust. It looks like David Trust. It looks like David

:12:04.:12:05.

Trust. It looks like David Trust. It looks like David

:12:05.:12:07.

Nicholson is here to stay? I find Nicholson is here to stay? I find

:12:07.:12:09.

Nicholson is here to stay? I find it extraordinary if the only person

:12:09.:12:11.

it extraordinary if the only person it extraordinary if the only person

:12:11.:12:13.

it extraordinary if the only person thought able to lead the NHS is the

:12:13.:12:16.

thought able to lead the NHS is the thought able to lead the NHS is the

:12:16.:12:17.

one who absolutely personifies the one who absolutely personifies the

:12:17.:12:19.

one who absolutely personifies the command and control culture, indeed

:12:19.:12:20.

command and control culture, indeed command and control culture, indeed

:12:20.:12:22.

command and control culture, indeed the culture of fear that has led

:12:22.:12:24.

the culture of fear that has led the culture of fear that has led

:12:24.:12:26.

our NHS into such troubled waters. our NHS into such troubled waters.

:12:26.:12:30.

our NHS into such troubled waters. I can't believe that the reforms

:12:30.:12:32.

I can't believe that the reforms I can't believe that the reforms

:12:32.:12:34.

are so stablising that only are so stablising that only

:12:34.:12:35.

are so stablising that only Nicholson is the answer. Because

:12:35.:12:38.

Nicholson is the answer. Because Nicholson is the answer. Because

:12:38.:12:39.

the truth is, that people will the truth is, that people will

:12:39.:12:41.

the truth is, that people will the truth is, that people will

:12:41.:12:44.

still be frightened while he is in still be frightened while he is in

:12:44.:12:45.

still be frightened while he is in still be frightened while he is in

:12:45.:12:46.

charge. I feel that. Let me put it charge. I feel that. Let me put it

:12:46.:12:47.

charge. I feel that. Let me put it to Sean Worth, people will be

:12:47.:12:49.

to Sean Worth, people will be to Sean Worth, people will be

:12:49.:12:49.

frightened, people will not have frightened, people will not have

:12:49.:12:51.

frightened, people will not have confidence in Sir David Nicholson?

:12:51.:12:52.

confidence in Sir David Nicholson? confidence in Sir David Nicholson?

:12:52.:12:53.

I'm not going to defend David I'm not going to defend David

:12:53.:12:54.

I'm not going to defend David I'm not going to defend David

:12:54.:12:54.

Nicholson, he needs to look in the Nicholson, he needs to look in the

:12:54.:12:56.

Nicholson, he needs to look in the Nicholson, he needs to look in the

:12:56.:12:56.

mirror and say did I do everything mirror and say did I do everything

:12:56.:12:58.

mirror and say did I do everything mirror and say did I do everything

:12:58.:12:59.

I could to prevent that. I think it I could to prevent that. I think it

:12:59.:12:59.

I could to prevent that. I think it I could to prevent that. I think it

:12:59.:13:01.

has to go much further than that. I has to go much further than that. I

:13:01.:13:02.

has to go much further than that. I think the campaigners, the families

:13:02.:13:03.

think the campaigners, the families think the campaigners, the families

:13:03.:13:05.

think the campaigners, the families of the victims of Mid Staffs, yes,

:13:05.:13:06.

of the victims of Mid Staffs, yes, of the victims of Mid Staffs, yes,

:13:06.:13:06.

of the victims of Mid Staffs, yes, they want their head on a spike but

:13:06.:13:07.

they want their head on a spike but they want their head on a spike but

:13:07.:13:08.

they want their head on a spike but if you look at the public inquiry,

:13:08.:13:09.

if you look at the public inquiry, if you look at the public inquiry,

:13:09.:13:10.

if you look at the public inquiry, if you look at the public inquiry,

:13:10.:13:11.

what it said was it is not just one what it said was it is not just one

:13:11.:13:12.

what it said was it is not just one individual, it is an entire system.

:13:12.:13:14.

individual, it is an entire system. individual, it is an entire system.

:13:14.:13:15.

It is an entire NHS establishment It is an entire NHS establishment

:13:15.:13:17.

It is an entire NHS establishment that denies people choice. It hides

:13:17.:13:19.

that denies people choice. It hides that denies people choice. It hides

:13:19.:13:21.

performance, it doesn't allow you performance, it doesn't allow you

:13:21.:13:21.

performance, it doesn't allow you to find out the comparative

:13:21.:13:23.

to find out the comparative differences between different

:13:23.:13:24.

differences between different differences between different

:13:24.:13:25.

differences between different hospitals, or even GPs, at a local

:13:25.:13:26.

hospitals, or even GPs, at a local hospitals, or even GPs, at a local

:13:26.:13:26.

hospitals, or even GPs, at a local level. This is a straw man, isn't

:13:26.:13:28.

level. This is a straw man, isn't level. This is a straw man, isn't

:13:28.:13:29.

level. This is a straw man, isn't it t you are really going after the

:13:29.:13:30.

it t you are really going after the it t you are really going after the

:13:30.:13:31.

wrong target? We are not going wrong target? We are not going

:13:31.:13:32.

wrong target? We are not going after the wrong target. Where did

:13:32.:13:34.

after the wrong target. Where did after the wrong target. Where did

:13:34.:13:35.

after the wrong target. Where did the system come from? He was at the

:13:35.:13:36.

the system come from? He was at the the system come from? He was at the

:13:36.:13:37.

heart of that system. I don't heart of that system. I don't

:13:37.:13:38.

heart of that system. I don't heart of that system. I don't

:13:38.:13:39.

accept for a minute that he didn't accept for a minute that he didn't

:13:39.:13:40.

accept for a minute that he didn't accept for a minute that he didn't

:13:40.:13:42.

know what was going on. I think know what was going on. I think

:13:42.:13:43.

know what was going on. I think David Nicholson knows if a chief

:13:43.:13:44.

David Nicholson knows if a chief executive sneezes. He certainly

:13:44.:13:46.

executive sneezes. He certainly executive sneezes. He certainly

:13:46.:13:47.

executive sneezes. He certainly knows if they are going to fail on

:13:47.:13:49.

knows if they are going to fail on knows if they are going to fail on

:13:49.:13:49.

finances or targets. It is finances or targets. It is

:13:49.:13:51.

finances or targets. It is finances or targets. It is

:13:51.:13:52.

ridiculous. He is at the heart of ridiculous. He is at the heart of

:13:52.:13:53.

ridiculous. He is at the heart of ridiculous. He is at the heart of

:13:53.:13:54.

it, I believe he did know what was it, I believe he did know what was

:13:54.:13:56.

it, I believe he did know what was it, I believe he did know what was

:13:56.:13:58.

going on. What worries me is this going on. What worries me is this

:13:58.:14:00.

going on. What worries me is this man, who epitomises the type of

:14:00.:14:02.

man, who epitomises the type of ruthless management that means

:14:02.:14:04.

ruthless management that means ruthless management that means

:14:04.:14:06.

succeed at all cost, those costs succeed at all cost, those costs

:14:06.:14:08.

succeed at all cost, those costs were too high for patients. Sean

:14:08.:14:10.

were too high for patients. Sean were too high for patients. Sean

:14:10.:14:13.

were too high for patients. Sean Worth, is there a danger that he is

:14:13.:14:15.

Worth, is there a danger that he is omnipotent, however much the

:14:15.:14:16.

omnipotent, however much the omnipotent, however much the

:14:17.:14:17.

Government talk about the system, Government talk about the system,

:14:17.:14:20.

Government talk about the system, Government talk about the system,

:14:20.:14:21.

it all comes back to command and it all comes back to command and

:14:22.:14:23.

control? Any seriously senior control? Any seriously senior

:14:23.:14:24.

control? Any seriously senior politicians are not calling for

:14:25.:14:26.

politicians are not calling for politicians are not calling for

:14:26.:14:27.

hissed head. He is incredibly hissed head. He is incredibly

:14:27.:14:28.

knowledgeable about the system. knowledgeable about the system.

:14:28.:14:28.

knowledgeable about the system. What I found really interesting

:14:28.:14:30.

What I found really interesting What I found really interesting

:14:30.:14:30.

What I found really interesting today was when he went through his

:14:30.:14:32.

today was when he went through his today was when he went through his

:14:32.:14:33.

evidence with the MPs in this evidence with the MPs in this

:14:33.:14:33.

evidence with the MPs in this committee, it was very clear that

:14:33.:14:34.

committee, it was very clear that committee, it was very clear that

:14:34.:14:35.

everybody is pointing the blame at everybody is pointing the blame at

:14:35.:14:36.

everybody is pointing the blame at everybody is pointing the blame at

:14:36.:14:37.

him, and he tried as far as he him, and he tried as far as he

:14:37.:14:39.

him, and he tried as far as he could, he couldn't quite do it,

:14:40.:14:40.

could, he couldn't quite do it, could, he couldn't quite do it,

:14:40.:14:41.

could, he couldn't quite do it, because he a civil servant, he was

:14:41.:14:42.

because he a civil servant, he was because he a civil servant, he was

:14:42.:14:43.

saying he's acting on behalf of saying he's acting on behalf of

:14:43.:14:44.

saying he's acting on behalf of politicians who set the framework.

:14:44.:14:46.

politicians who set the framework. politicians who set the framework.

:14:46.:14:48.

And the astonishing thing for me, And the astonishing thing for me,

:14:48.:14:50.

And the astonishing thing for me, as Norman Lamb said earlier, nobody

:14:50.:14:51.

as Norman Lamb said earlier, nobody as Norman Lamb said earlier, nobody

:14:51.:14:52.

is pointing the finger who anyone is pointing the finger who anyone

:14:52.:14:53.

is pointing the finger who anyone is pointing the finger who anyone

:14:53.:14:54.

who was actually in charge of the who was actually in charge of the

:14:54.:14:55.

who was actually in charge of the policy. Which is a political issue.

:14:55.:14:57.

policy. Which is a political issue. policy. Which is a political issue.

:14:57.:14:58.

That is interesting, isn't it. It That is interesting, isn't it. It

:14:58.:15:00.

That is interesting, isn't it. It was extraordinary that it rocked

:15:00.:15:02.

was extraordinary that it rocked was extraordinary that it rocked

:15:02.:15:03.

the NHS. People need to understand the NHS. People need to understand

:15:03.:15:04.

the NHS. People need to understand that Mid Staffs was a really

:15:04.:15:05.

that Mid Staffs was a really that Mid Staffs was a really

:15:05.:15:06.

watershed moment for the NHS, and watershed moment for the NHS, and

:15:06.:15:07.

watershed moment for the NHS, and relatives still don't feel they

:15:07.:15:10.

relatives still don't feel they relatives still don't feel they

:15:10.:15:10.

have had redress, or resolution? have had redress, or resolution?

:15:11.:15:11.

have had redress, or resolution? have had redress, or resolution?

:15:11.:15:12.

This is why it is so important not This is why it is so important not

:15:12.:15:13.

This is why it is so important not This is why it is so important not

:15:13.:15:14.

to focus on one individual. If the to focus on one individual. If the

:15:15.:15:16.

to focus on one individual. If the to focus on one individual. If the

:15:16.:15:17.

guy has got problems then he should guy has got problems then he should

:15:17.:15:17.

guy has got problems then he should guy has got problems then he should

:15:18.:15:18.

go, but I think he will have to go, but I think he will have to

:15:18.:15:19.

go, but I think he will have to look at himself and politicians

:15:19.:15:21.

look at himself and politicians look at himself and politicians

:15:21.:15:22.

look at himself and politicians have to do that. We need more voice

:15:22.:15:23.

have to do that. We need more voice have to do that. We need more voice

:15:23.:15:24.

in the NHS, much more information in the NHS, much more information

:15:25.:15:26.

in the NHS, much more information in the NHS, much more information

:15:26.:15:27.

about what it does, and the results about what it does, and the results

:15:27.:15:29.

about what it does, and the results it delivers for patients. I would

:15:29.:15:30.

it delivers for patients. I would say more competition between

:15:30.:15:32.

say more competition between say more competition between

:15:32.:15:34.

different providers, if you don't different providers, if you don't

:15:34.:15:36.

different providers, if you don't like one, like Mid Staffs. You

:15:36.:15:37.

like one, like Mid Staffs. You like one, like Mid Staffs. You

:15:37.:15:38.

could go somewhere else. You don't could go somewhere else. You don't

:15:39.:15:40.

could go somewhere else. You don't could go somewhere else. You don't

:15:40.:15:41.

like the roll back from the element like the roll back from the element

:15:41.:15:42.

like the roll back from the element of xetti, which you regard as

:15:42.:15:45.

of xetti, which you regard as of xetti, which you regard as

:15:45.:15:46.

simply being political? You mean simply being political? You mean

:15:46.:15:46.

simply being political? You mean the alleged U-turn on competition

:15:46.:15:48.

the alleged U-turn on competition the alleged U-turn on competition

:15:48.:15:48.

the alleged U-turn on competition today. The fact about that is there

:15:48.:15:49.

today. The fact about that is there today. The fact about that is there

:15:49.:15:50.

was a competition regime put in was a competition regime put in

:15:50.:15:51.

was a competition regime put in place by the previous Government,

:15:51.:15:53.

place by the previous Government, place by the previous Government,

:15:53.:15:53.

which did expose the NHS to which did expose the NHS to

:15:53.:15:54.

which did expose the NHS to competition for many years, that is

:15:54.:15:56.

competition for many years, that is competition for many years, that is

:15:56.:15:59.

fine. The exact is, however, that fine. The exact is, however, that

:15:59.:16:00.

fine. The exact is, however, that fine. The exact is, however, that

:16:00.:16:01.

the firm that is can come in and the firm that is can come in and

:16:01.:16:02.

the firm that is can come in and the firm that is can come in and

:16:02.:16:03.

try to compete in the NHS, got try to compete in the NHS, got

:16:03.:16:03.

try to compete in the NHS, got try to compete in the NHS, got

:16:03.:16:04.

signed off by a Secretary of State, signed off by a Secretary of State,

:16:04.:16:05.

signed off by a Secretary of State, a politician, rather than having

:16:05.:16:06.

a politician, rather than having a politician, rather than having

:16:06.:16:07.

a politician, rather than having a politician, rather than having

:16:07.:16:08.

that out in the open and done by a that out in the open and done by a

:16:08.:16:09.

that out in the open and done by a regulator. That is what the

:16:09.:16:09.

regulator. That is what the regulator. That is what the

:16:09.:16:12.

regulations were supposed to do regulations were supposed to do

:16:12.:16:13.

nobody quite understands that. nobody quite understands that.

:16:13.:16:14.

nobody quite understands that. Heather Wood what Sean Worth is

:16:14.:16:15.

Heather Wood what Sean Worth is Heather Wood what Sean Worth is

:16:15.:16:16.

Heather Wood what Sean Worth is saying that really in the end it is

:16:16.:16:16.

saying that really in the end it is saying that really in the end it is

:16:16.:16:17.

saying that really in the end it is saying that really in the end it is

:16:17.:16:18.

not down to one man, it is down to not down to one man, it is down to

:16:18.:16:19.

not down to one man, it is down to a whole host of reforms,

:16:19.:16:21.

a whole host of reforms, essentially by politicians, and

:16:21.:16:22.

essentially by politicians, and essentially by politicians, and

:16:22.:16:22.

essentially by politicians, and really you have just got to get on

:16:22.:16:23.

really you have just got to get on really you have just got to get on

:16:23.:16:24.

really you have just got to get on and deal with it? What I would say

:16:24.:16:26.

and deal with it? What I would say and deal with it? What I would say

:16:26.:16:28.

and deal with it? What I would say is we have nurses up before the NMC,

:16:28.:16:29.

is we have nurses up before the NMC, is we have nurses up before the NMC,

:16:29.:16:30.

I don't particularly want to plead I don't particularly want to plead

:16:30.:16:32.

I don't particularly want to plead their case, but they didn't fix

:16:32.:16:33.

their case, but they didn't fix their case, but they didn't fix

:16:33.:16:35.

those targets, or bully people on those targets, or bully people on

:16:35.:16:36.

those targets, or bully people on those targets, or bully people on

:16:36.:16:37.

their own. They did it because they their own. They did it because they

:16:37.:16:38.

their own. They did it because they their own. They did it because they

:16:38.:16:39.

were told to do it by their manager, were told to do it by their manager,

:16:39.:16:40.

were told to do it by their manager, were told to do it by their manager,

:16:40.:16:40.

were told to do it by their manager, who were told to do it by the SHA,

:16:40.:16:41.

who were told to do it by the SHA, who were told to do it by the SHA,

:16:42.:16:42.

who were told to do it by the SHA, who were told to do it by the

:16:42.:16:43.

who were told to do it by the who were told to do it by the

:16:43.:16:45.

Department of Health. We have been Department of Health. We have been

:16:45.:16:47.

Department of Health. We have been through this with Bristol. We need

:16:47.:16:49.

through this with Bristol. We need through this with Bristol. We need

:16:49.:16:51.

to get management back with to get management back with

:16:51.:16:53.

to get management back with clinicians and we need managers who

:16:53.:16:55.

clinicians and we need managers who clinicians and we need managers who

:16:55.:16:57.

support patients, not who run a support patients, not who run a

:16:57.:16:58.

support patients, not who run a service regardless of the cost to

:16:58.:17:02.

patients. patients.

:17:02.:17:03.

patients. Thank you very much indeed. Still

:17:03.:17:04.

Thank you very much indeed. Still Thank you very much indeed. Still

:17:04.:17:06.

Thank you very much indeed. Still to come on the programme, we will

:17:06.:17:07.

to come on the programme, we will to come on the programme, we will

:17:07.:17:08.

have more on the Venezuelan have more on the Venezuelan

:17:08.:17:09.

have more on the Venezuelan President, Hugo Chavez, whose death

:17:09.:17:10.

President, Hugo Chavez, whose death President, Hugo Chavez, whose death

:17:10.:17:11.

was announced a short time ago. was announced a short time ago.

:17:11.:17:12.

was announced a short time ago. Suicide is an issue not often

:17:12.:17:13.

Suicide is an issue not often Suicide is an issue not often

:17:13.:17:15.

discussed in our society. That, discussed in our society. That,

:17:15.:17:16.

discussed in our society. That, perhaps, is one reason why those

:17:16.:17:17.

perhaps, is one reason why those perhaps, is one reason why those

:17:17.:17:18.

perhaps, is one reason why those who contemplate it find it so hard

:17:18.:17:21.

who contemplate it find it so hard to seek help.

:17:21.:17:22.

to seek help. to seek help.

:17:22.:17:23.

And recent figures from the office And recent figures from the office

:17:23.:17:24.

And recent figures from the office of national statics, show in

:17:24.:17:25.

of national statics, show in particular suicides amongst middle-

:17:25.:17:27.

particular suicides amongst middle- particular suicides amongst middle-

:17:27.:17:29.

aged men are on the rise. aged men are on the rise.

:17:29.:17:30.

aged men are on the rise. Tonight we are talking about these

:17:30.:17:31.

Tonight we are talking about these Tonight we are talking about these

:17:31.:17:32.

suicides, and the question is why suicides, and the question is why

:17:32.:17:33.

suicides, and the question is why suicides, and the question is why

:17:33.:17:34.

and what can be done to bring it and what can be done to bring it

:17:34.:17:35.

and what can be done to bring it down. Historically, at least twice

:17:35.:17:36.

down. Historically, at least twice down. Historically, at least twice

:17:36.:17:37.

down. Historically, at least twice as many men and women have taken

:17:37.:17:39.

as many men and women have taken as many men and women have taken

:17:39.:17:40.

their own lives, a gap that's their own lives, a gap that's

:17:40.:17:41.

their own lives, a gap that's widened to nearly three-times as

:17:41.:17:43.

widened to nearly three-times as many in recent years.

:17:43.:17:45.

many in recent years. many in recent years.

:17:45.:17:47.

Over the past 30 years the Over the past 30 years the

:17:47.:17:48.

Over the past 30 years the instances of female suicide have

:17:49.:17:49.

instances of female suicide have instances of female suicide have

:17:49.:17:50.

fallen further and more steadily fallen further and more steadily

:17:50.:17:51.

fallen further and more steadily fallen further and more steadily

:17:51.:17:53.

than those of men. The rate of male than those of men. The rate of male

:17:53.:17:56.

than those of men. The rate of male suicides is highest in the 30-44

:17:56.:17:57.

suicides is highest in the 30-44 suicides is highest in the 30-44

:17:57.:17:58.

age bracket. However, from 2007 age bracket. However, from 2007

:17:58.:18:00.

age bracket. However, from 2007 age bracket. However, from 2007

:18:00.:18:02.

there has been a marked increase in there has been a marked increase in

:18:02.:18:04.

there has been a marked increase in the 45-59 age group, which unlike

:18:04.:18:05.

the 45-59 age group, which unlike the 45-59 age group, which unlike

:18:05.:18:09.

any other age ranges hasn't dropped any other age ranges hasn't dropped

:18:09.:18:10.

any other age ranges hasn't dropped any other age ranges hasn't dropped

:18:10.:18:12.

since. So what is driving this male since. So what is driving this male

:18:12.:18:16.

since. So what is driving this male despair. We asked Radio 5 Men's

:18:16.:18:17.

despair. We asked Radio 5 Men's despair. We asked Radio 5 Men's

:18:17.:18:19.

Hour presenter to break down the taboo.

:18:19.:18:20.

taboo. taboo.

:18:20.:18:22.

taboo. It is very hard for men just simply

:18:22.:18:23.

It is very hard for men just simply It is very hard for men just simply

:18:23.:18:27.

to say, I need help. to say, I need help.

:18:27.:18:29.

to say, I need help. to say, I need help.

:18:29.:18:30.

It creeps up on you so slowly until It creeps up on you so slowly until

:18:30.:18:31.

It creeps up on you so slowly until It creeps up on you so slowly until

:18:31.:18:32.

all of a sudden, you know, you are all of a sudden, you know, you are

:18:32.:18:38.

at the edge. at the edge.

:18:38.:18:39.

at the edge. at the edge.

:18:39.:18:39.

He talked to his best friend half He talked to his best friend half

:18:39.:18:41.

He talked to his best friend half He talked to his best friend half

:18:41.:18:42.

an hour before he died, and he gave an hour before he died, and he gave

:18:42.:18:43.

an hour before he died, and he gave nothing away. We don't do this

:18:43.:18:47.

enough. enough.

:18:47.:18:49.

enough. Gather to talk openly about male

:18:49.:18:50.

Gather to talk openly about male emotional vunabilities, the

:18:50.:18:57.

emotional vunabilities, the emotional vunabilities, the

:18:57.:18:57.

emotional vunabilities, the pressures we face. To shed a little

:18:57.:18:59.

pressures we face. To shed a little pressures we face. To shed a little

:18:59.:19:01.

light on this darkest of statistics, light on this darkest of statistics,

:19:01.:19:02.

light on this darkest of statistics, that men are three-times more

:19:02.:19:04.

that men are three-times more that men are three-times more

:19:04.:19:05.

that men are three-times more likely to take their own lives. I

:19:05.:19:06.

likely to take their own lives. I likely to take their own lives. I

:19:06.:19:08.

have brought together a group with have brought together a group with

:19:08.:19:08.

have brought together a group with direct experience, men who have

:19:08.:19:12.

attempted suicide. attempted suicide.

:19:12.:19:14.

attempted suicide. The families left behind. And

:19:14.:19:19.

The families left behind. And mental health professionals.

:19:19.:19:21.

mental health professionals. mental health professionals.

:19:21.:19:21.

mental health professionals. It is coming up for a year almost

:19:21.:19:25.

It is coming up for a year almost It is coming up for a year almost

:19:25.:19:26.

It is coming up for a year almost to the week since you attempt today

:19:27.:19:30.

to the week since you attempt today to the week since you attempt today

:19:30.:19:32.

to the week since you attempt today to the week since you attempt today

:19:32.:19:33.

take your own life. It is, it is -- take your own life. It is, it is --

:19:33.:19:35.

take your own life. It is, it is -- take your own life. It is, it is --

:19:35.:19:36.

Attempted to take your own life. Attempted to take your own life.

:19:36.:19:38.

Attempted to take your own life. Attempted to take your own life.

:19:38.:19:40.

is, the mind is a funny thing. It is, the mind is a funny thing. It

:19:40.:19:41.

is, the mind is a funny thing. It is funny how you cannot forget

:19:41.:19:42.

is funny how you cannot forget is funny how you cannot forget

:19:42.:19:43.

is funny how you cannot forget things but put things to one side.

:19:43.:19:44.

things but put things to one side. things but put things to one side.

:19:44.:19:45.

things but put things to one side. When you say it like that it hits

:19:45.:19:46.

When you say it like that it hits When you say it like that it hits

:19:46.:19:54.

When you say it like that it hits you, I feel that very raw. It is

:19:54.:19:55.

you, I feel that very raw. It is you, I feel that very raw. It is

:19:55.:19:56.

amazing the progress you can make amazing the progress you can make

:19:56.:19:58.

amazing the progress you can make amazing the progress you can make

:19:58.:19:59.

in a year. What was going on with in a year. What was going on with

:19:59.:20:01.

in a year. What was going on with in a year. What was going on with

:20:01.:20:01.

in a year. What was going on with me, I had set up a new company, we

:20:02.:20:05.

me, I had set up a new company, we me, I had set up a new company, we

:20:05.:20:05.

me, I had set up a new company, we had gone through IVF, which is a

:20:05.:20:08.

had gone through IVF, which is a had gone through IVF, which is a

:20:08.:20:13.

very stressful thing to go through, very stressful thing to go through,

:20:13.:20:16.

very stressful thing to go through, very stressful thing to go through,

:20:16.:20:21.

very stressful thing to go through, I had a court case that I was being

:20:21.:20:24.

I had a court case that I was being I had a court case that I was being

:20:24.:20:27.

prosecuted for assault. My marriage prosecuted for assault. My marriage

:20:27.:20:31.

prosecuted for assault. My marriage prosecuted for assault. My marriage

:20:31.:20:32.

was not in a good place. If you was not in a good place. If you

:20:32.:20:34.

was not in a good place. If you was not in a good place. If you

:20:34.:20:35.

were to write down all those things were to write down all those things

:20:35.:20:38.

were to write down all those things were to write down all those things

:20:38.:20:40.

on a piece of paper even for the on a piece of paper even for the

:20:40.:20:43.

strongest people actually strongest people actually

:20:43.:20:44.

strongest people actually everything was crumbling apart. I

:20:44.:20:48.

everything was crumbling apart. I everything was crumbling apart. I

:20:48.:20:52.

couldn't cope. I tried to commit couldn't cope. I tried to commit

:20:52.:20:54.

couldn't cope. I tried to commit couldn't cope. I tried to commit

:20:54.:20:54.

suicide. It is very hard for men suicide. It is very hard for men

:20:54.:20:57.

suicide. It is very hard for men suicide. It is very hard for men

:20:57.:21:03.

just simply to say I need help. just simply to say I need help.

:21:03.:21:04.

just simply to say I need help. just simply to say I need help.

:21:04.:21:05.

Because men are meant to be tough. Because men are meant to be tough.

:21:05.:21:07.

Because men are meant to be tough. Sam's story is incredibly common,

:21:07.:21:09.

Sam's story is incredibly common, Sam's story is incredibly common,

:21:09.:21:10.

Sam's story is incredibly common, and I think that there will be

:21:10.:21:11.

and I think that there will be and I think that there will be

:21:11.:21:13.

thousands of men out there seeing thousands of men out there seeing

:21:13.:21:14.

thousands of men out there seeing that and knowing exactly where you

:21:14.:21:15.

that and knowing exactly where you that and knowing exactly where you

:21:16.:21:17.

that and knowing exactly where you that and knowing exactly where you

:21:17.:21:19.

have been. There is 12 men a day in have been. There is 12 men a day in

:21:19.:21:20.

have been. There is 12 men a day in have been. There is 12 men a day in

:21:20.:21:21.

the UK take their lives. That is the UK take their lives. That is

:21:21.:21:22.

the UK take their lives. That is the UK take their lives. That is

:21:22.:21:23.

for 2011. The last five years has for 2011. The last five years has

:21:23.:21:24.

for 2011. The last five years has seen a sharp rise in suicides

:21:24.:21:26.

seen a sharp rise in suicides seen a sharp rise in suicides

:21:26.:21:28.

seen a sharp rise in suicides amongst men in their 40s and early

:21:28.:21:29.

amongst men in their 40s and early amongst men in their 40s and early

:21:29.:21:30.

amongst men in their 40s and early 50s. In these times it is about

:21:30.:21:31.

50s. In these times it is about 50s. In these times it is about

:21:31.:21:32.

50s. In these times it is about economic loss. You know, loss of a

:21:32.:21:35.

economic loss. You know, loss of a economic loss. You know, loss of a

:21:35.:21:35.

economic loss. You know, loss of a job, debt, loss of a career, the

:21:35.:21:38.

job, debt, loss of a career, the job, debt, loss of a career, the

:21:38.:21:39.

profile of people who complete profile of people who complete

:21:39.:21:40.

profile of people who complete suicide is very different from the

:21:40.:21:41.

suicide is very different from the suicide is very different from the

:21:41.:21:42.

suicide is very different from the profile of people who come and look

:21:42.:21:43.

profile of people who come and look profile of people who come and look

:21:43.:21:46.

for help. There is this population for help. There is this population

:21:46.:21:46.

for help. There is this population out there that psychiatrists like

:21:46.:21:47.

out there that psychiatrists like out there that psychiatrists like

:21:48.:21:49.

out there that psychiatrists like myself don't get to see. The first

:21:49.:21:50.

myself don't get to see. The first myself don't get to see. The first

:21:50.:21:50.

myself don't get to see. The first family might hear of it is their

:21:51.:21:52.

family might hear of it is their family might hear of it is their

:21:52.:21:53.

family might hear of it is their life is lost. I can only speak for

:21:53.:21:54.

life is lost. I can only speak for life is lost. I can only speak for

:21:54.:21:56.

life is lost. I can only speak for Guy as I knew him. I often think

:21:56.:21:58.

Guy as I knew him. I often think Guy as I knew him. I often think

:21:58.:22:00.

had he spoken to people, friend, had he spoken to people, friend,

:22:00.:22:01.

had he spoken to people, friend, had he spoken to people, friend,

:22:01.:22:02.

you know, how different it would be. you know, how different it would be.

:22:03.:22:05.

you know, how different it would be. you know, how different it would be.

:22:05.:22:06.

you know, how different it would be. How long ago did he die? It will be

:22:06.:22:14.

How long ago did he die? It will be How long ago did he die? It will be

:22:14.:22:15.

six years this June. It hadn't six years this June. It hadn't

:22:15.:22:17.

six years this June. It hadn't six years this June. It hadn't

:22:17.:22:17.

crossed my mind, we did end up crossed my mind, we did end up

:22:17.:22:19.

crossed my mind, we did end up crossed my mind, we did end up

:22:19.:22:20.

separating, I know he did go down separating, I know he did go down

:22:20.:22:21.

separating, I know he did go down hill from there, and he became

:22:21.:22:23.

hill from there, and he became hill from there, and he became

:22:23.:22:24.

hill from there, and he became quite depressed, but he was very up

:22:24.:22:29.

quite depressed, but he was very up quite depressed, but he was very up

:22:29.:22:30.

and down. He had mentioned it and down. He had mentioned it

:22:30.:22:31.

and down. He had mentioned it before, and I had never believed

:22:31.:22:33.

before, and I had never believed before, and I had never believed

:22:33.:22:36.

before, and I had never believed that he would do that. I didn't.

:22:36.:22:37.

that he would do that. I didn't. that he would do that. I didn't.

:22:37.:22:38.

That is something I felt guilty That is something I felt guilty

:22:38.:22:39.

That is something I felt guilty That is something I felt guilty

:22:39.:22:40.

about for a very, very long time. I about for a very, very long time. I

:22:40.:22:41.

about for a very, very long time. I about for a very, very long time. I

:22:41.:22:41.

about for a very, very long time. I had no idea that he would do it. I

:22:41.:22:43.

had no idea that he would do it. I had no idea that he would do it. I

:22:43.:22:44.

had no idea that he would do it. I was so shocked when he actually did

:22:44.:22:45.

was so shocked when he actually did was so shocked when he actually did

:22:45.:22:47.

was so shocked when he actually did it. I just, you know, people say

:22:47.:22:48.

it. I just, you know, people say it. I just, you know, people say

:22:48.:22:49.

it. I just, you know, people say all sorts of things when they are

:22:49.:22:50.

all sorts of things when they are all sorts of things when they are

:22:50.:22:52.

going through a difficult time, and going through a difficult time, and

:22:52.:22:55.

breakdowns of relationships. But, breakdowns of relationships. But,

:22:55.:22:56.

breakdowns of relationships. But, breakdowns of relationships. But,

:22:56.:22:58.

no, I never thought he would do it. no, I never thought he would do it.

:22:58.:22:58.

no, I never thought he would do it. no, I never thought he would do it.

:22:58.:22:59.

If I thought he would have done it, If I thought he would have done it,

:23:00.:23:03.

If I thought he would have done it, If I thought he would have done it,

:23:03.:23:04.

I would have, you know... Done my I would have, you know... Done my

:23:04.:23:05.

I would have, you know... Done my I would have, you know... Done my

:23:05.:23:06.

best, what I know now, I would have best, what I know now, I would have

:23:06.:23:13.

best, what I know now, I would have best, what I know now, I would have

:23:13.:23:18.

tried to help him. When you heard tried to help him. When you heard

:23:18.:23:19.

tried to help him. When you heard tried to help him. When you heard

:23:20.:23:20.

the news, Sorry. There is anger and the news, Sorry. There is anger and

:23:20.:23:21.

the news, Sorry. There is anger and the news, Sorry. There is anger and

:23:21.:23:22.

upset and there is no-one to direct upset and there is no-one to direct

:23:22.:23:23.

upset and there is no-one to direct upset and there is no-one to direct

:23:23.:23:23.

it at other than the person. You it at other than the person. You

:23:23.:23:24.

it at other than the person. You don't want that because you miss

:23:24.:23:25.

don't want that because you miss don't want that because you miss

:23:25.:23:26.

don't want that because you miss them and care about them, but you

:23:26.:23:27.

them and care about them, but you them and care about them, but you

:23:27.:23:28.

them and care about them, but you are also so angry that they have

:23:28.:23:29.

are also so angry that they have are also so angry that they have

:23:29.:23:30.

left you in this situation. left you in this situation.

:23:30.:23:32.

left you in this situation. Eventually I did forgive him. I

:23:32.:23:33.

Eventually I did forgive him. I Eventually I did forgive him. I

:23:33.:23:34.

understood, and now I understand understood, and now I understand

:23:34.:23:36.

understood, and now I understand understood, and now I understand

:23:36.:23:37.

why he did it, and I accept the why he did it, and I accept the

:23:37.:23:39.

why he did it, and I accept the why he did it, and I accept the

:23:39.:23:40.

fact that he was unwell. I found a fact that he was unwell. I found a

:23:40.:23:43.

fact that he was unwell. I found a fact that he was unwell. I found a

:23:43.:23:44.

lot of peace now, with it all. I lot of peace now, with it all. I

:23:44.:23:46.

lot of peace now, with it all. I lot of peace now, with it all. I

:23:46.:23:47.

understand that he was just in such understand that he was just in such

:23:47.:23:48.

understand that he was just in such understand that he was just in such

:23:48.:23:52.

despair, and that was his only way. despair, and that was his only way.

:23:52.:23:53.

despair, and that was his only way. despair, and that was his only way.

:23:53.:23:54.

He honestly, and I know this, he He honestly, and I know this, he

:23:54.:23:56.

He honestly, and I know this, he He honestly, and I know this, he

:23:56.:23:57.

honestly felt that we would all be honestly felt that we would all be

:23:57.:23:59.

honestly felt that we would all be better off without him. Obviously

:23:59.:24:01.

better off without him. Obviously better off without him. Obviously

:24:01.:24:02.

better off without him. Obviously that's not the case. That's what he

:24:02.:24:11.

that's not the case. That's what he that's not the case. That's what he

:24:11.:24:12.

truly believed. I just feel really, truly believed. I just feel really,

:24:13.:24:13.

truly believed. I just feel really, really sad that he couldn't have

:24:13.:24:16.

really sad that he couldn't have really sad that he couldn't have

:24:16.:24:18.

come forward gone and spoken to come forward gone and spoken to

:24:18.:24:19.

come forward gone and spoken to somebody. He talked to his best

:24:19.:24:20.

somebody. He talked to his best somebody. He talked to his best

:24:20.:24:21.

somebody. He talked to his best friend half an hour before he died,

:24:21.:24:22.

friend half an hour before he died, friend half an hour before he died,

:24:22.:24:22.

friend half an hour before he died, he gave nothing away about what he

:24:22.:24:24.

he gave nothing away about what he was going to do.

:24:24.:24:25.

was going to do. was going to do.

:24:25.:24:26.

was going to do. I probably would like to tell you

:24:26.:24:28.

I probably would like to tell you I probably would like to tell you

:24:28.:24:29.

that whether it gives you some that whether it gives you some

:24:29.:24:30.

that whether it gives you some that whether it gives you some

:24:30.:24:30.

comfort or what I don't know, but comfort or what I don't know, but

:24:30.:24:31.

comfort or what I don't know, but comfort or what I don't know, but

:24:31.:24:33.

the truth is, when you are at that the truth is, when you are at that

:24:33.:24:35.

the truth is, when you are at that the truth is, when you are at that

:24:35.:24:37.

stage you don't have the ability to stage you don't have the ability to

:24:37.:24:39.

stage you don't have the ability to rationalise. So I have got two

:24:39.:24:40.

rationalise. So I have got two rationalise. So I have got two

:24:40.:24:41.

rationalise. So I have got two children who were, one was in his

:24:41.:24:42.

children who were, one was in his children who were, one was in his

:24:42.:24:43.

children who were, one was in his teen, one had just turned 20, you

:24:43.:24:44.

teen, one had just turned 20, you teen, one had just turned 20, you

:24:44.:24:45.

teen, one had just turned 20, you can't think of them. You don't have

:24:45.:24:47.

can't think of them. You don't have can't think of them. You don't have

:24:47.:24:48.

the ability to think rationally and the ability to think rationally and

:24:48.:24:50.

the ability to think rationally and put things into some sort of

:24:50.:24:51.

put things into some sort of put things into some sort of

:24:51.:24:52.

perspective where you can say how perspective where you can say how

:24:52.:24:53.

perspective where you can say how perspective where you can say how

:24:53.:24:55.

are they going to cope with it. How are they going to cope with it. How

:24:55.:24:55.

are they going to cope with it. How are they going to cope with it. How

:24:55.:24:58.

will they deal with what I have will they deal with what I have

:24:58.:25:00.

will they deal with what I have done. Those thoughts aren't there.

:25:00.:25:01.

done. Those thoughts aren't there. done. Those thoughts aren't there.

:25:01.:25:02.

done. Those thoughts aren't there. In a way that is comforting to hear.

:25:02.:25:03.

In a way that is comforting to hear. In a way that is comforting to hear.

:25:03.:25:03.

In a way that is comforting to hear. That is a question I have always

:25:03.:25:05.

That is a question I have always That is a question I have always

:25:05.:25:07.

That is a question I have always wondered. Was he thinking of me and

:25:07.:25:08.

wondered. Was he thinking of me and the children, particularly, having

:25:08.:25:09.

the children, particularly, having the children, particularly, having

:25:09.:25:12.

dropped them off at school that dropped them off at school that

:25:12.:25:12.

dropped them off at school that morning. Surely if you are thinking

:25:12.:25:14.

morning. Surely if you are thinking morning. Surely if you are thinking

:25:14.:25:16.

morning. Surely if you are thinking about that, you couldn't do it. You

:25:16.:25:18.

about that, you couldn't do it. You about that, you couldn't do it. You

:25:18.:25:19.

saying that I really appreciate. saying that I really appreciate.

:25:19.:25:20.

saying that I really appreciate. saying that I really appreciate.

:25:20.:25:22.

Because it helps kind put my mind a Because it helps kind put my mind a

:25:22.:25:23.

Because it helps kind put my mind a Because it helps kind put my mind a

:25:23.:25:25.

little bit more at peace that he little bit more at peace that he

:25:25.:25:25.

little bit more at peace that he was too far gone with the

:25:25.:25:31.

was too far gone with the was too far gone with the

:25:31.:25:32.

depression to really feel the depression to really feel the

:25:32.:25:34.

depression to really feel the depression to really feel the

:25:34.:25:35.

emotions. I guess you have to be emotions. I guess you have to be

:25:35.:25:36.

completely detatched emotion-wise completely detatched emotion-wise

:25:36.:25:39.

completely detatched emotion-wise completely detatched emotion-wise

:25:39.:25:40.

completely detatched emotion-wise to be able to do that. I mean I

:25:40.:25:42.

to be able to do that. I mean I to be able to do that. I mean I

:25:42.:25:44.

suppose in those moments part of suppose in those moments part of

:25:44.:25:45.

suppose in those moments part of the reason that would have pulled

:25:45.:25:46.

the reason that would have pulled the reason that would have pulled

:25:46.:25:47.

the reason that would have pulled you back was it your family, was it

:25:47.:25:49.

you back was it your family, was it you back was it your family, was it

:25:49.:25:49.

you back was it your family, was it thoughts of that, or was it just

:25:49.:25:52.

thoughts of that, or was it just thoughts of that, or was it just

:25:52.:25:53.

that you physically couldn't do that you physically couldn't do

:25:53.:25:54.

that you physically couldn't do that you physically couldn't do

:25:54.:25:55.

that? All you can think about is that? All you can think about is

:25:55.:25:56.

that? All you can think about is ending the anguish and the pain,

:25:56.:25:58.

ending the anguish and the pain, ending the anguish and the pain,

:25:58.:26:00.

ending the anguish and the pain, the mental pain, it is not a

:26:00.:26:01.

the mental pain, it is not a the mental pain, it is not a

:26:01.:26:01.

physical pain, which would be physical pain, which would be

:26:02.:26:03.

physical pain, which would be physical pain, which would be

:26:03.:26:04.

easier to deal with if it was a easier to deal with if it was a

:26:04.:26:04.

easier to deal with if it was a physical pain, you would have

:26:04.:26:05.

physical pain, you would have physical pain, you would have

:26:05.:26:06.

something that you could treat. something that you could treat.

:26:06.:26:07.

something that you could treat. something that you could treat.

:26:07.:26:08.

When you are there and you have When you are there and you have

:26:08.:26:09.

When you are there and you have When you are there and you have

:26:09.:26:10.

that mental anguish, it is a cloud, that mental anguish, it is a cloud,

:26:10.:26:11.

that mental anguish, it is a cloud, a black cloud that completely

:26:11.:26:13.

a black cloud that completely a black cloud that completely

:26:13.:26:15.

invessel lops you, and you can't invessel lops you, and you can't

:26:15.:26:17.

invessel lops you, and you can't see through -- invessel lops you

:26:17.:26:21.

see through -- invessel lops you see through -- invessel lops you

:26:21.:26:22.

see through -- invessel lops you and you can't -- venvelopes you and

:26:22.:26:24.

and you can't -- venvelopes you and and you can't -- venvelopes you and

:26:24.:26:25.

and you can't -- venvelopes you and you couldn't see through it. It was

:26:25.:26:27.

you couldn't see through it. It was you couldn't see through it. It was

:26:27.:26:28.

a redundancy, and a relationship a redundancy, and a relationship

:26:28.:26:28.

a redundancy, and a relationship breakdown, and I left the

:26:28.:26:30.

breakdown, and I left the breakdown, and I left the

:26:30.:26:31.

relationship with nothing, I became relationship with nothing, I became

:26:31.:26:31.

relationship with nothing, I became homeless. It is a horrible

:26:31.:26:32.

homeless. It is a horrible homeless. It is a horrible

:26:32.:26:33.

homeless. It is a horrible situation to think you are set in

:26:33.:26:34.

situation to think you are set in situation to think you are set in

:26:34.:26:35.

situation to think you are set in life, and all of a sudden it is

:26:35.:26:36.

life, and all of a sudden it is life, and all of a sudden it is

:26:36.:26:37.

life, and all of a sudden it is wiped out, you are in your mid-40s

:26:37.:26:38.

wiped out, you are in your mid-40s wiped out, you are in your mid-40s

:26:38.:26:39.

and suddenly you are thinking you and suddenly you are thinking you

:26:39.:26:41.

and suddenly you are thinking you have to start again with nothing.

:26:41.:26:42.

have to start again with nothing. have to start again with nothing.

:26:42.:26:43.

It was a frightening prospect. It It was a frightening prospect. It

:26:43.:26:45.

It was a frightening prospect. It was pure chance that stopped me.

:26:45.:26:46.

was pure chance that stopped me. was pure chance that stopped me.

:26:46.:26:47.

What happened was the night before What happened was the night before

:26:47.:26:48.

What happened was the night before What happened was the night before

:26:48.:26:49.

I happened to look on the Internet I happened to look on the Internet

:26:49.:26:51.

I happened to look on the Internet I happened to look on the Internet

:26:51.:26:53.

and got a number for the Samaritans. and got a number for the Samaritans.

:26:53.:26:54.

and got a number for the Samaritans. and got a number for the Samaritans.

:26:54.:26:55.

I rang the number on my mobile I rang the number on my mobile

:26:55.:26:56.

I rang the number on my mobile phone, but somebody answered and I

:26:56.:26:57.

phone, but somebody answered and I phone, but somebody answered and I

:26:57.:26:58.

disconnected the ball. I just disconnected the ball. I just

:26:58.:26:59.

disconnected the ball. I just disconnected the ball. I just

:26:59.:27:01.

didn't feel like I could speak to didn't feel like I could speak to

:27:01.:27:04.

didn't feel like I could speak to didn't feel like I could speak to

:27:04.:27:04.

anybody. So the next day when the anybody. So the next day when the

:27:04.:27:05.

anybody. So the next day when the anybody. So the next day when the

:27:05.:27:06.

event was just about to happen I event was just about to happen I

:27:06.:27:06.

event was just about to happen I event was just about to happen I

:27:06.:27:08.

got my phone out of the pocket and got my phone out of the pocket and

:27:08.:27:09.

got my phone out of the pocket and started going through the last

:27:09.:27:09.

started going through the last started going through the last

:27:09.:27:10.

started going through the last dialed number on there, and I was

:27:10.:27:11.

dialed number on there, and I was dialed number on there, and I was

:27:11.:27:12.

dialed number on there, and I was looking to see who I had been

:27:12.:27:13.

looking to see who I had been looking to see who I had been

:27:13.:27:13.

ringing recently I was going ringing recently I was going

:27:13.:27:14.

ringing recently I was going through it and thinking this person

:27:14.:27:16.

through it and thinking this person through it and thinking this person

:27:16.:27:17.

might miss me, and this person might miss me, and this person

:27:17.:27:18.

might miss me, and this person probably won't care, and whatever,

:27:18.:27:21.

probably won't care, and whatever, whatever. Eventually I scrolled

:27:21.:27:23.

whatever. Eventually I scrolled whatever. Eventually I scrolled

:27:23.:27:24.

down to the Samaritans number and down to the Samaritans number and

:27:24.:27:25.

down to the Samaritans number and down to the Samaritans number and

:27:25.:27:26.

to this day I still don't know what to this day I still don't know what

:27:26.:27:27.

to this day I still don't know what to this day I still don't know what

:27:27.:27:29.

made me press the dial button but I made me press the dial button but I

:27:29.:27:32.

made me press the dial button but I made me press the dial button but I

:27:32.:27:33.

did, you know that was what stopped did, you know that was what stopped

:27:33.:27:34.

did, you know that was what stopped did, you know that was what stopped

:27:34.:27:35.

me from doing what I was going to me from doing what I was going to

:27:35.:27:36.

me from doing what I was going to me from doing what I was going to

:27:36.:27:37.

me from doing what I was going to do. I must admit I do find it hard

:27:37.:27:40.

do. I must admit I do find it hard do. I must admit I do find it hard

:27:40.:27:41.

do. I must admit I do find it hard to look at you guys. Because you

:27:41.:27:44.

to look at you guys. Because you to look at you guys. Because you

:27:44.:27:45.

to look at you guys. Because you are a reminder of what my family

:27:45.:27:46.

are a reminder of what my family are a reminder of what my family

:27:47.:27:47.

could have been going through. That could have been going through. That

:27:47.:27:48.

could have been going through. That could have been going through. That

:27:48.:27:50.

is really tough to see you and see is really tough to see you and see

:27:50.:27:51.

is really tough to see you and see you suffering and thinking I could

:27:51.:27:52.

you suffering and thinking I could you suffering and thinking I could

:27:52.:28:01.

have put my family through that. have put my family through that.

:28:01.:28:02.

have put my family through that. Depression is a disease of

:28:02.:28:08.

Depression is a disease of Depression is a disease of

:28:08.:28:08.

isolation. When you isolate you isolation. When you isolate you

:28:08.:28:10.

isolation. When you isolate you isolation. When you isolate you

:28:11.:28:11.

disconnect. I think that the way we disconnect. I think that the way we

:28:11.:28:13.

disconnect. I think that the way we disconnect. I think that the way we

:28:13.:28:14.

are leading our lives at the moment, are leading our lives at the moment,

:28:14.:28:19.

are leading our lives at the moment, and in particular men, we are

:28:19.:28:20.

and in particular men, we are and in particular men, we are

:28:20.:28:21.

disconnecting with our fellow human disconnecting with our fellow human

:28:21.:28:22.

disconnecting with our fellow human disconnecting with our fellow human

:28:22.:28:23.

beings, and I think that is a beings, and I think that is a

:28:23.:28:24.

beings, and I think that is a beings, and I think that is a

:28:24.:28:25.

problem that we may be not looking problem that we may be not looking

:28:25.:28:26.

problem that we may be not looking problem that we may be not looking

:28:26.:28:28.

at. And we need to. We know from at. And we need to. We know from

:28:28.:28:30.

at. And we need to. We know from the studies from the work by

:28:30.:28:32.

the studies from the work by the studies from the work by

:28:32.:28:33.

Liverpool University, that we can Liverpool University, that we can

:28:33.:28:34.

Liverpool University, that we can Liverpool University, that we can

:28:34.:28:37.

see a thousand more suicides as a see a thousand more suicides as a

:28:37.:28:38.

see a thousand more suicides as a result of the economic recession,

:28:39.:28:41.

result of the economic recession, result of the economic recession,

:28:41.:28:42.

result of the economic recession, 800 of which will be men. But does

:28:42.:28:43.

800 of which will be men. But does 800 of which will be men. But does

:28:43.:28:44.

background play some factor in this, background play some factor in this,

:28:44.:28:46.

background play some factor in this, background play some factor in this,

:28:46.:28:49.

if you are poor and lower down the if you are poor and lower down the

:28:49.:28:49.

if you are poor and lower down the socioeconomic scale, are you more

:28:49.:28:50.

socioeconomic scale, are you more socioeconomic scale, are you more

:28:51.:28:52.

socioeconomic scale, are you more likely to end up taking your life?

:28:52.:28:54.

likely to end up taking your life? likely to end up taking your life?

:28:54.:28:55.

It is true that lower socioeconomic It is true that lower socioeconomic

:28:55.:28:56.

It is true that lower socioeconomic groups are more likely to take

:28:56.:28:58.

groups are more likely to take groups are more likely to take

:28:58.:28:59.

their lives. But suicide don't have their lives. But suicide don't have

:28:59.:29:00.

their lives. But suicide don't have great respect for people in the

:29:00.:29:02.

great respect for people in the great respect for people in the

:29:02.:29:03.

higher incomes. It just don't work higher incomes. It just don't work

:29:03.:29:05.

higher incomes. It just don't work higher incomes. It just don't work

:29:05.:29:06.

out that way. It might not be out that way. It might not be

:29:06.:29:08.

out that way. It might not be out that way. It might not be

:29:08.:29:08.

fashionable to say so, but do you fashionable to say so, but do you

:29:08.:29:09.

fashionable to say so, but do you think there is any correlation

:29:09.:29:11.

think there is any correlation think there is any correlation

:29:11.:29:12.

between feminism and the rise of between feminism and the rise of

:29:12.:29:22.
:29:22.:29:23.

between feminism and the rise of female equality and opportunity and

:29:23.:29:25.

female equality and opportunity and female equality and opportunity and

:29:25.:29:28.

female equality and opportunity and the rates of where men are now?

:29:28.:29:28.

the rates of where men are now? the rates of where men are now?

:29:28.:29:29.

think feminism and equality is think feminism and equality is

:29:30.:29:30.

think feminism and equality is great, but I think men have

:29:30.:29:32.

great, but I think men have great, but I think men have

:29:32.:29:33.

great, but I think men have forgotten a lot about what men have

:29:33.:29:34.

forgotten a lot about what men have forgotten a lot about what men have

:29:34.:29:35.

forgotten a lot about what men have to go through as well. Who do you

:29:35.:29:35.

to go through as well. Who do you to go through as well. Who do you

:29:35.:29:36.

to go through as well. Who do you talk to, you go for a pint with

:29:36.:29:37.

talk to, you go for a pint with talk to, you go for a pint with

:29:37.:29:38.

talk to, you go for a pint with your mate and you won't talk about

:29:38.:29:39.

your mate and you won't talk about your mate and you won't talk about

:29:39.:29:40.

those sorts of things with your those sorts of things with your

:29:40.:29:41.

those sorts of things with your those sorts of things with your

:29:41.:29:42.

mates, and start crying in front of mates, and start crying in front of

:29:42.:29:43.

mates, and start crying in front of your mates. Because when you are

:29:43.:29:44.

your mates. Because when you are your mates. Because when you are

:29:44.:29:45.

your mates. Because when you are out for a pint you phone will soon

:29:45.:29:47.

out for a pint you phone will soon out for a pint you phone will soon

:29:47.:29:48.

stop ringing and you would stop stop ringing and you would stop

:29:48.:29:49.

stop ringing and you would stop stop ringing and you would stop

:29:49.:29:50.

getting invited out, and it will be, getting invited out, and it will be,

:29:50.:29:51.

getting invited out, and it will be, getting invited out, and it will be,

:29:51.:29:53.

they don't know how to deal with they don't know how to deal with

:29:53.:29:54.

they don't know how to deal with they don't know how to deal with

:29:54.:29:55.

that. Then you have to try and seek that. Then you have to try and seek

:29:55.:29:56.

that. Then you have to try and seek professional help and you don't

:29:56.:29:57.

professional help and you don't professional help and you don't

:29:57.:29:58.

know what's happening for you. know what's happening for you.

:29:58.:30:00.

know what's happening for you. work its, what has made the

:30:00.:30:01.

work its, what has made the work its, what has made the

:30:01.:30:03.

difference for you, what has made difference for you, what has made

:30:03.:30:04.

difference for you, what has made difference for you, what has made

:30:04.:30:05.

you sat here a year later feeling you sat here a year later feeling

:30:05.:30:07.

you sat here a year later feeling much better about things? The one

:30:07.:30:09.

much better about things? The one much better about things? The one

:30:09.:30:10.

much better about things? The one key thing was group therapy. It is

:30:10.:30:13.

key thing was group therapy. It is key thing was group therapy. It is

:30:13.:30:19.

amazing the bond between you. That amazing the bond between you. That

:30:19.:30:20.

helps enormously. Cognitive helps enormously. Cognitive

:30:20.:30:21.

behavioural therapy really helped behavioural therapy really helped

:30:21.:30:22.

behavioural therapy really helped behavioural therapy really helped

:30:22.:30:23.

behavioural therapy really helped me, it made me look at what I was

:30:23.:30:24.

me, it made me look at what I was me, it made me look at what I was

:30:24.:30:26.

going through. It made me question going through. It made me question

:30:26.:30:28.

going through. It made me question my thought process. It is quite

:30:28.:30:30.

my thought process. It is quite my thought process. It is quite

:30:30.:30:32.

emotional sitting here with you guy emotional sitting here with you guy

:30:32.:30:34.

emotional sitting here with you guy emotional sitting here with you guy

:30:34.:30:36.

its, much the same -- guys, much its, much the same -- guys, much

:30:36.:30:37.

its, much the same -- guys, much its, much the same -- guys, much

:30:37.:30:41.

the same as I'm so glad you have the same as I'm so glad you have

:30:41.:30:42.

the same as I'm so glad you have the same as I'm so glad you have

:30:42.:30:43.

sought help. I just wish Guy could sought help. I just wish Guy could

:30:43.:30:52.

sought help. I just wish Guy could have done the same, really.

:30:53.:30:55.

have done the same, really. have done the same, really.

:30:55.:30:58.

For details of organisations which For details of organisations which

:30:58.:30:59.

For details of organisations which offer advice and support visit the

:30:59.:31:09.
:31:09.:31:27.

With me again is the Health With me again is the Health

:31:27.:31:29.

With me again is the Health Minister, Norman Lamb, and Claire

:31:29.:31:32.

Minister, Norman Lamb, and Claire Minister, Norman Lamb, and Claire

:31:32.:31:34.

Wiley from the Samaritans. These Wiley from the Samaritans. These

:31:34.:31:36.

are distressing stories and are distressing stories and

:31:36.:31:38.

statistics. Clearly, men in statistics. Clearly, men in

:31:38.:31:39.

statistics. Clearly, men in particular, don't know they need

:31:39.:31:41.

particular, don't know they need particular, don't know they need

:31:41.:31:42.

help, and aren't getting help? help, and aren't getting help?

:31:42.:31:43.

help, and aren't getting help? help, and aren't getting help?

:31:43.:31:44.

I think we are often reluctant to I think we are often reluctant to

:31:44.:31:46.

I think we are often reluctant to come forward and admit any frailty.

:31:46.:31:48.

come forward and admit any frailty. come forward and admit any frailty.

:31:48.:31:49.

come forward and admit any frailty. come forward and admit any frailty.

:31:49.:31:50.

I think often we feel we have to be I think often we feel we have to be

:31:50.:31:51.

I think often we feel we have to be strong and cope with all

:31:51.:31:54.

strong and cope with all strong and cope with all

:31:54.:31:55.

circumstances, and yet, often we circumstances, and yet, often we

:31:55.:31:55.

circumstances, and yet, often we circumstances, and yet, often we

:31:55.:31:56.

can't. One of the things that I can't. One of the things that I

:31:56.:31:58.

can't. One of the things that I think is really important is to

:31:58.:32:00.

think is really important is to think is really important is to

:32:00.:32:01.

tackle the stigma of mental health. tackle the stigma of mental health.

:32:01.:32:01.

tackle the stigma of mental health. There is a brilliant campaign

:32:02.:32:03.

There is a brilliant campaign There is a brilliant campaign

:32:03.:32:04.

called Time To Change, which the called Time To Change, which the

:32:04.:32:05.

called Time To Change, which the Government is helping to fund. But

:32:05.:32:07.

Government is helping to fund. But Government is helping to fund. But

:32:07.:32:09.

Government is helping to fund. But it is to really tackle thised idea

:32:09.:32:10.

it is to really tackle thised idea it is to really tackle thised idea

:32:10.:32:11.

that mental health is anything to that mental health is anything to

:32:11.:32:12.

that mental health is anything to that mental health is anything to

:32:12.:32:14.

be embarrassed about. We have to be be embarrassed about. We have to be

:32:14.:32:15.

be embarrassed about. We have to be encouraging people to come forward

:32:15.:32:21.

encouraging people to come forward encouraging people to come forward

:32:21.:32:22.

encouraging people to come forward if they have -- to come forward if

:32:22.:32:24.

if they have -- to come forward if if they have -- to come forward if

:32:25.:32:25.

they have problems. Kevin was they have problems. Kevin was

:32:25.:32:26.

they have problems. Kevin was saying there he wouldn't have

:32:26.:32:27.

saying there he wouldn't have saying there he wouldn't have

:32:27.:32:28.

saying there he wouldn't have dreamt of going to the pub and

:32:28.:32:29.

dreamt of going to the pub and dreamt of going to the pub and

:32:29.:32:31.

telling his friends. There is a telling his friends. There is a

:32:31.:32:32.

telling his friends. There is a particular problem around men and

:32:32.:32:33.

particular problem around men and particular problem around men and

:32:33.:32:34.

particular problem around men and you call it a perfect storm? What

:32:34.:32:35.

you call it a perfect storm? What you call it a perfect storm? What

:32:35.:32:36.

you call it a perfect storm? What we have seen is a range of social

:32:36.:32:37.

we have seen is a range of social we have seen is a range of social

:32:37.:32:38.

and economic changes over the last and economic changes over the last

:32:38.:32:40.

and economic changes over the last and economic changes over the last

:32:40.:32:41.

40 years, which means men in mid- 40 years, which means men in mid-

:32:42.:32:43.

40 years, which means men in mid- life, from disadvantaged groups in

:32:43.:32:45.

life, from disadvantaged groups in particular, are experiencing a

:32:45.:32:46.

particular, are experiencing a particular, are experiencing a

:32:46.:32:47.

perfect storm of challenges. We perfect storm of challenges. We

:32:47.:32:50.

perfect storm of challenges. We have seen a decline of

:32:50.:32:52.

have seen a decline of traditionally male industry

:32:52.:32:54.

traditionally male industry traditionally male industry

:32:54.:32:55.

industries, and recessions, and men industries, and recessions, and men

:32:55.:32:56.

industries, and recessions, and men at mid-life are dependant on a

:32:56.:32:58.

at mid-life are dependant on a at mid-life are dependant on a

:32:58.:32:58.

woman for emotional support. So woman for emotional support. So

:32:58.:33:01.

woman for emotional support. So they are fish particularly affected

:33:01.:33:02.

they are fish particularly affected by relationship breakdown. In

:33:02.:33:03.

by relationship breakdown. In by relationship breakdown. In

:33:03.:33:04.

addition to that they are more addition to that they are more

:33:04.:33:06.

addition to that they are more addition to that they are more

:33:06.:33:06.

likely to turn to alcohol or drugs likely to turn to alcohol or drugs

:33:06.:33:08.

likely to turn to alcohol or drugs likely to turn to alcohol or drugs

:33:08.:33:09.

as a way of coping. All those as a way of coping. All those

:33:09.:33:11.

things together means that things together means that

:33:11.:33:13.

things together means that particular group is at risk of

:33:13.:33:14.

particular group is at risk of particular group is at risk of

:33:14.:33:16.

particular group is at risk of suicide. What needs to be done and

:33:16.:33:17.

suicide. What needs to be done and suicide. What needs to be done and

:33:17.:33:17.

presumably it is urgent? What is presumably it is urgent? What is

:33:17.:33:19.

presumably it is urgent? What is presumably it is urgent? What is

:33:19.:33:20.

crucial is we stop expecting men to crucial is we stop expecting men to

:33:20.:33:21.

crucial is we stop expecting men to come to traditional mental health

:33:21.:33:23.

come to traditional mental health come to traditional mental health

:33:23.:33:24.

services. Absolutely.It is really services. Absolutely.It is really

:33:24.:33:25.

services. Absolutely.It is really services. Absolutely.It is really

:33:25.:33:27.

emasculating for a man to think I emasculating for a man to think I

:33:27.:33:28.

emasculating for a man to think I emasculating for a man to think I

:33:28.:33:29.

need to see a councillor once a need to see a councillor once a

:33:29.:33:30.

need to see a councillor once a need to see a councillor once a

:33:30.:33:32.

week -- counsellor once a week to week -- counsellor once a week to

:33:32.:33:33.

week -- counsellor once a week to sort out my feelings. Samaritans

:33:34.:33:36.

sort out my feelings. Samaritans sort out my feelings. Samaritans

:33:36.:33:37.

sort out my feelings. Samaritans needs to go where men are, we are

:33:37.:33:39.

needs to go where men are, we are needs to go where men are, we are

:33:39.:33:40.

going into homeless centres and going into homeless centres and

:33:40.:33:40.

going into homeless centres and pubs. Volunteers are there to talk

:33:40.:33:42.

pubs. Volunteers are there to talk pubs. Volunteers are there to talk

:33:42.:33:43.

pubs. Volunteers are there to talk to men where they are. It seems the

:33:43.:33:44.

to men where they are. It seems the to men where they are. It seems the

:33:44.:33:44.

to men where they are. It seems the NHS seems to have put the problem,

:33:44.:33:45.

NHS seems to have put the problem, NHS seems to have put the problem,

:33:45.:33:46.

NHS seems to have put the problem, as it were, of dealing with this,

:33:47.:33:48.

as it were, of dealing with this, as it were, of dealing with this,

:33:48.:33:49.

as it were, of dealing with this, and coming to a solution on to

:33:49.:33:50.

and coming to a solution on to and coming to a solution on to

:33:50.:33:52.

councils in England, and only a councils in England, and only a

:33:52.:33:52.

councils in England, and only a third of councils actually have

:33:53.:33:54.

third of councils actually have third of councils actually have

:33:54.:33:54.

suicide prevention groups? There is suicide prevention groups? There is

:33:54.:33:55.

suicide prevention groups? There is a significant increase, first of

:33:56.:33:57.

a significant increase, first of a significant increase, first of

:33:57.:33:59.

all, in the funding for public all, in the funding for public

:33:59.:34:00.

all, in the funding for public health. Public health is going for

:34:00.:34:01.

health. Public health is going for health. Public health is going for

:34:01.:34:02.

the first time in local Government. the first time in local Government.

:34:02.:34:03.

the first time in local Government. the first time in local Government.

:34:03.:34:04.

I think that's the right place for I think that's the right place for

:34:04.:34:06.

I think that's the right place for I think that's the right place for

:34:06.:34:07.

it to be. Only a third of council, it to be. Only a third of council,

:34:07.:34:08.

it to be. Only a third of council, presumably you can't force the

:34:08.:34:09.

presumably you can't force the presumably you can't force the

:34:09.:34:10.

issue? That needs to change.Can issue? That needs to change.Can

:34:10.:34:11.

issue? That needs to change.Can issue? That needs to change.Can

:34:11.:34:14.

you force the issue? This has to be you force the issue? This has to be

:34:14.:34:15.

you force the issue? This has to be a collaboration. You asked who is

:34:15.:34:16.

a collaboration. You asked who is a collaboration. You asked who is

:34:16.:34:17.

responsible, we are all responsible. responsible, we are all responsible.

:34:17.:34:18.

responsible, we are all responsible. The whole of society. Government

:34:18.:34:19.

The whole of society. Government The whole of society. Government

:34:19.:34:20.

The whole of society. Government has a critical part to play, and as

:34:20.:34:22.

has a critical part to play, and as has a critical part to play, and as

:34:22.:34:22.

the minister responsible for mental the minister responsible for mental

:34:22.:34:24.

the minister responsible for mental health. I have a profound interest

:34:24.:34:25.

health. I have a profound interest health. I have a profound interest

:34:25.:34:27.

in this. And I am absolutely in this. And I am absolutely

:34:27.:34:29.

in this. And I am absolutely determined that we give mental

:34:29.:34:31.

determined that we give mental determined that we give mental

:34:31.:34:32.

health services a higher priority health services a higher priority

:34:32.:34:33.

health services a higher priority health services a higher priority

:34:33.:34:35.

in the first mandate, this is the in the first mandate, this is the

:34:35.:34:36.

in the first mandate, this is the Government's priorities for the NHS,

:34:36.:34:38.

Government's priorities for the NHS, Government's priorities for the NHS,

:34:38.:34:38.

Government's priorities for the NHS, we are saying mental health has to

:34:38.:34:39.

we are saying mental health has to we are saying mental health has to

:34:39.:34:41.

have parity of esteem with physical have parity of esteem with physical

:34:41.:34:42.

have parity of esteem with physical have parity of esteem with physical

:34:43.:34:44.

health. In your film there was a health. In your film there was a

:34:44.:34:45.

reference to cognitive behavioural reference to cognitive behavioural

:34:45.:34:46.

reference to cognitive behavioural they werey. Over half a million

:34:46.:34:47.

they werey. Over half a million they werey. Over half a million

:34:47.:34:49.

they werey. Over half a million people got access last year, we are

:34:49.:34:50.

people got access last year, we are people got access last year, we are

:34:50.:34:51.

massively expanding this. That is massively expanding this. That is

:34:51.:34:52.

massively expanding this. That is massively expanding this. That is

:34:52.:34:53.

one of the routes to help people one of the routes to help people

:34:53.:34:54.

one of the routes to help people deal with profound challenges they

:34:54.:34:55.

deal with profound challenges they deal with profound challenges they

:34:55.:34:56.

face. I think what is really face. I think what is really

:34:56.:34:57.

face. I think what is really important is we don't just see

:34:57.:34:58.

important is we don't just see important is we don't just see

:34:58.:34:59.

important is we don't just see suicide purely as an issue of mem

:34:59.:35:00.

suicide purely as an issue of mem suicide purely as an issue of mem

:35:00.:35:01.

health, and it needs to be health, and it needs to be

:35:01.:35:03.

health, and it needs to be addressed early by mental health

:35:03.:35:05.

addressed early by mental health addressed early by mental health

:35:05.:35:06.

addressed early by mental health services. It is one element, and a

:35:06.:35:07.

services. It is one element, and a services. It is one element, and a

:35:07.:35:08.

very important element, we can see very important element, we can see

:35:08.:35:09.

very important element, we can see these men were facing social

:35:10.:35:12.

these men were facing social challenges, issues with social

:35:12.:35:14.

challenges, issues with social eyesation, relationship breakdown,

:35:14.:35:15.

eyesation, relationship breakdown, debt, economic problems, alcohol,

:35:16.:35:16.

debt, economic problems, alcohol, debt, economic problems, alcohol,

:35:17.:35:17.

debt, economic problems, alcohol, at local level you need a whole

:35:17.:35:19.

at local level you need a whole range of different services,

:35:19.:35:23.

range of different services, range of different services,

:35:23.:35:25.

statutory and third sector. 75% of statutory and third sector. 75% of

:35:25.:35:26.

statutory and third sector. 75% of those who commit suicide have no

:35:26.:35:27.

those who commit suicide have no those who commit suicide have no

:35:27.:35:28.

contact with mental health services. contact with mental health services.

:35:28.:35:29.

contact with mental health services. Isn't this outreach, at a local

:35:29.:35:31.

Isn't this outreach, at a local Isn't this outreach, at a local

:35:31.:35:31.

Isn't this outreach, at a local level, as you say you would expect

:35:31.:35:32.

level, as you say you would expect level, as you say you would expect

:35:32.:35:33.

level, as you say you would expect to have this outreach, only a third

:35:33.:35:34.

to have this outreach, only a third to have this outreach, only a third

:35:35.:35:35.

to have this outreach, only a third of councils have taken up the idea

:35:35.:35:36.

of councils have taken up the idea of councils have taken up the idea

:35:36.:35:38.

of a suicide prevention group? of a suicide prevention group?

:35:38.:35:39.

of a suicide prevention group? is a serious worry. It is

:35:39.:35:39.

is a serious worry. It is is a serious worry. It is

:35:40.:35:40.

absolutely correct that there is a absolutely correct that there is a

:35:41.:35:41.

absolutely correct that there is a whole range of actors and agencies

:35:42.:35:43.

whole range of actors and agencies whole range of actors and agencies

:35:43.:35:43.

that play a role in suicide that play a role in suicide

:35:44.:35:46.

that play a role in suicide prevention, but we do think that

:35:46.:35:46.

prevention, but we do think that prevention, but we do think that

:35:46.:35:47.

Government at local level needs it Government at local level needs it

:35:47.:35:49.

Government at local level needs it take the lead. Thinking about a

:35:49.:35:50.

take the lead. Thinking about a take the lead. Thinking about a

:35:50.:35:53.

Samaritan's branch. We need to know Samaritan's branch. We need to know

:35:53.:35:54.

Samaritan's branch. We need to know who in the local structure is

:35:54.:35:55.

who in the local structure is responsible for suicide prevention,

:35:55.:35:57.

responsible for suicide prevention, responsible for suicide prevention,

:35:57.:35:58.

responsible for suicide prevention, to make sure our efforts are linked

:35:58.:35:59.

to make sure our efforts are linked to make sure our efforts are linked

:35:59.:36:00.

to make sure our efforts are linked in with a whole range of other

:36:00.:36:01.

in with a whole range of other in with a whole range of other

:36:01.:36:03.

services that need to take action. services that need to take action.

:36:03.:36:04.

services that need to take action. services that need to take action.

:36:04.:36:05.

One example of an at-risk group are One example of an at-risk group are

:36:05.:36:07.

One example of an at-risk group are those who self-harm, much more

:36:07.:36:08.

those who self-harm, much more those who self-harm, much more

:36:09.:36:10.

likely to end up committing suicide. likely to end up committing suicide.

:36:10.:36:11.

likely to end up committing suicide. In Birmingham there is a brilliant

:36:11.:36:14.

In Birmingham there is a brilliant In Birmingham there is a brilliant

:36:14.:36:16.

scheme called RAID, you have the scheme called RAID, you have the

:36:16.:36:18.

scheme called RAID, you have the mental Health Trust working closely

:36:18.:36:20.

mental Health Trust working closely mental Health Trust working closely

:36:20.:36:21.

mental Health Trust working closely with A&E, anyone who comes to A&E

:36:22.:36:22.

with A&E, anyone who comes to A&E with A&E, anyone who comes to A&E

:36:22.:36:24.

with mental health problems or who with mental health problems or who

:36:24.:36:25.

has self-harmed, immediately gets has self-harmed, immediately gets

:36:25.:36:27.

has self-harmed, immediately gets has self-harmed, immediately gets

:36:27.:36:28.

in touch with services who can help in touch with services who can help

:36:28.:36:30.

in touch with services who can help them through that crisis. Is self-

:36:30.:36:31.

them through that crisis. Is self- them through that crisis. Is self-

:36:31.:36:33.

harm prevalent among an older age harm prevalent among an older age

:36:33.:36:35.

harm prevalent among an older age group? This is particularly to

:36:35.:36:36.

group? This is particularly to group? This is particularly to

:36:36.:36:37.

group? This is particularly to younger men. It is this age group

:36:37.:36:43.

younger men. It is this age group younger men. It is this age group

:36:43.:36:47.

that has this emmasslation? that has this emmasslation?

:36:47.:36:48.

that has this emmasslation? really Emasculation?They need the

:36:48.:36:49.

really Emasculation?They need the really Emasculation?They need the

:36:49.:36:50.

really Emasculation?They need the help we were talking about. Do we

:36:50.:36:52.

help we were talking about. Do we help we were talking about. Do we

:36:52.:36:54.

help we were talking about. Do we need to focus on older men? It is

:36:54.:36:55.

need to focus on older men? It is need to focus on older men? It is

:36:55.:36:57.

the biggest single cause of death the biggest single cause of death

:36:57.:36:58.

the biggest single cause of death the biggest single cause of death

:36:58.:36:59.

in younger men. We need to be in younger men. We need to be

:36:59.:37:00.

in younger men. We need to be conscious of all of the challenges.

:37:00.:37:01.

conscious of all of the challenges. conscious of all of the challenges.

:37:01.:37:02.

Absolutely, we have seen this trend Absolutely, we have seen this trend

:37:02.:37:04.

Absolutely, we have seen this trend that has been growing over ten

:37:04.:37:05.

that has been growing over ten that has been growing over ten

:37:05.:37:06.

that has been growing over ten years now. And we need to respond

:37:06.:37:07.

to that. to that.

:37:07.:37:10.

to that. Thank you both very much indeed.

:37:10.:37:11.

Thank you both very much indeed. Thank you both very much indeed.

:37:11.:37:12.

Thank you both very much indeed. More on the death of Hugo Chavez in

:37:12.:37:13.

More on the death of Hugo Chavez in More on the death of Hugo Chavez in

:37:13.:37:14.

More on the death of Hugo Chavez in a moment. First the words, "the Dow

:37:14.:37:17.

a moment. First the words, "the Dow a moment. First the words, "the Dow

:37:17.:37:19.

Jones has reached an all-time high", Jones has reached an all-time high",

:37:19.:37:20.

Jones has reached an all-time high", Jones has reached an all-time high",

:37:20.:37:21.

sounds like optistic ones and to be sounds like optistic ones and to be

:37:21.:37:24.

sounds like optistic ones and to be sounds like optistic ones and to be

:37:24.:37:25.

celebrated as we look to other to celebrated as we look to other to

:37:25.:37:26.

celebrated as we look to other to follow suit. Should they strike a

:37:26.:37:27.

follow suit. Should they strike a follow suit. Should they strike a

:37:27.:37:36.

note of caution or even dread. note of caution or even dread.

:37:36.:37:37.

note of caution or even dread. note of caution or even dread.

:37:37.:37:40.

Dow Jones is his name, money is his Dow Jones is his name, money is his

:37:40.:37:41.

Dow Jones is his name, money is his game. Americans monitor the Dow

:37:41.:37:42.

game. Americans monitor the Dow game. Americans monitor the Dow

:37:42.:37:43.

Jones industrial index far more Jones industrial index far more

:37:43.:37:44.

Jones industrial index far more than we scrutinise the FTSE over

:37:44.:37:45.

than we scrutinise the FTSE over than we scrutinise the FTSE over

:37:45.:37:46.

here. That is because ordinary here. That is because ordinary

:37:46.:37:47.

here. That is because ordinary plaerpbs often manage their own

:37:47.:37:49.

plaerpbs often manage their own plaerpbs often manage their own

:37:49.:37:50.

savings or mention -- Americans savings or mention -- Americans

:37:50.:37:51.

savings or mention -- Americans often manage their own savings or

:37:51.:37:52.

often manage their own savings or often manage their own savings or

:37:52.:37:53.

pensions, rather than trusting them pensions, rather than trusting them

:37:53.:37:55.

pensions, rather than trusting them to banks or insurance firms.

:37:55.:37:56.

to banks or insurance firms. to banks or insurance firms.

:37:56.:37:57.

Following a precipitous fall in Following a precipitous fall in

:37:57.:37:59.

Following a precipitous fall in shares after the financial crisis

:38:00.:38:01.

shares after the financial crisis shares after the financial crisis

:38:01.:38:03.

shares after the financial crisis of 2007, the Dow Jones began its

:38:03.:38:04.

of 2007, the Dow Jones began its of 2007, the Dow Jones began its

:38:04.:38:05.

inexorable rise four years ago, inexorable rise four years ago,

:38:06.:38:08.

inexorable rise four years ago, inexorable rise four years ago,

:38:08.:38:09.

since then it has risen 114%. In since then it has risen 114%. In

:38:09.:38:10.

since then it has risen 114%. In theory, this new high should be

:38:10.:38:11.

theory, this new high should be theory, this new high should be

:38:11.:38:12.

theory, this new high should be good news. That is until you look

:38:12.:38:13.

good news. That is until you look good news. That is until you look

:38:13.:38:14.

good news. That is until you look at why it has peaked. People with

:38:14.:38:16.

at why it has peaked. People with at why it has peaked. People with

:38:16.:38:16.

savings or money to invest savings or money to invest

:38:16.:38:17.

traditionally have four main traditionally have four main

:38:17.:38:19.

traditionally have four main options, they can put their money

:38:19.:38:20.

options, they can put their money options, they can put their money

:38:20.:38:21.

options, they can put their money into a savings account and rely on

:38:21.:38:22.

into a savings account and rely on into a savings account and rely on

:38:22.:38:24.

interest for regular income. But interest for regular income. But

:38:24.:38:25.

interest for regular income. But interest for regular income. But

:38:25.:38:26.

rates are at an all-time low and rates are at an all-time low and

:38:26.:38:27.

rates are at an all-time low and rates are at an all-time low and

:38:27.:38:28.

not set to rise for a few years. not set to rise for a few years.

:38:28.:38:30.

not set to rise for a few years. They could also invest in super-

:38:30.:38:31.

They could also invest in super- They could also invest in super-

:38:31.:38:32.

safe Government bonds, but the safe Government bonds, but the

:38:32.:38:33.

safe Government bonds, but the safe Government bonds, but the

:38:33.:38:33.

returns on them are also at record returns on them are also at record

:38:33.:38:34.

returns on them are also at record lows, thanks mostly to the printing

:38:35.:38:36.

lows, thanks mostly to the printing lows, thanks mostly to the printing

:38:36.:38:37.

of new money, or quanative easing. of new money, or quanative easing.

:38:37.:38:38.

of new money, or quanative easing. A third option for would-be

:38:38.:38:40.

A third option for would-be A third option for would-be

:38:40.:38:41.

investors is property. But that's investors is property. But that's

:38:41.:38:42.

investors is property. But that's investors is property. But that's

:38:42.:38:43.

out as well. Real estate prices in out as well. Real estate prices in

:38:44.:38:45.

out as well. Real estate prices in out as well. Real estate prices in

:38:45.:38:45.

the US are still well below the the US are still well below the

:38:45.:38:46.

the US are still well below the level seen before the financial

:38:46.:38:48.

level seen before the financial level seen before the financial

:38:48.:38:48.

crisis. That leaves stocks, shares crisis. That leaves stocks, shares

:38:48.:38:51.

crisis. That leaves stocks, shares crisis. That leaves stocks, shares

:38:51.:38:53.

or equities, they all mean the same or equities, they all mean the same

:38:53.:38:58.

thing. They traditionally out- thing. They traditionally out-

:38:58.:38:59.

thing. They traditionally out- perform the other sectors, are they

:38:59.:39:00.

perform the other sectors, are they perform the other sectors, are they

:39:00.:39:02.

perform the other sectors, are they too high and is this another bubble.

:39:02.:39:03.

too high and is this another bubble. too high and is this another bubble.

:39:03.:39:03.

too high and is this another bubble. This is not an equity bubble. We

:39:03.:39:04.

This is not an equity bubble. We This is not an equity bubble. We

:39:04.:39:05.

This is not an equity bubble. We have certainly seen a new high on

:39:05.:39:07.

have certainly seen a new high on have certainly seen a new high on

:39:07.:39:08.

have certainly seen a new high on have certainly seen a new high on

:39:08.:39:09.

the DOw, but if you look at the -- the DOw, but if you look at the --

:39:09.:39:10.

the DOw, but if you look at the -- the DOw, but if you look at the --

:39:10.:39:11.

Dow, but if you look at the Dow, but if you look at the

:39:11.:39:12.

Dow, but if you look at the valuations, what matters for stocks

:39:12.:39:13.

valuations, what matters for stocks valuations, what matters for stocks

:39:13.:39:14.

is interest rates and earnings. is interest rates and earnings.

:39:14.:39:15.

Relative to five-and-a-half years Relative to five-and-a-half years

:39:15.:39:17.

Relative to five-and-a-half years Relative to five-and-a-half years

:39:17.:39:18.

ago, the last time we had these ago, the last time we had these

:39:18.:39:20.

ago, the last time we had these level, we had earnings that were

:39:20.:39:21.

level, we had earnings that were level, we had earnings that were

:39:21.:39:22.

15% higher, and interest rates 15% higher, and interest rates

:39:22.:39:23.

15% higher, and interest rates three percentage points lower. It

:39:23.:39:25.

three percentage points lower. It three percentage points lower. It

:39:25.:39:26.

three percentage points lower. It is a much cheaper market than five-

:39:26.:39:27.

is a much cheaper market than five- is a much cheaper market than five-

:39:27.:39:31.

and-a-half years ago. What is the and-a-half years ago. What is the

:39:31.:39:33.

and-a-half years ago. What is the and-a-half years ago. What is the

:39:33.:39:35.

matter Dow. The Dow is down baby! matter Dow. The Dow is down baby!

:39:35.:39:36.

matter Dow. The Dow is down baby! Just how representative is the Dow

:39:36.:39:36.

Just how representative is the Dow Just how representative is the Dow

:39:36.:39:37.

Just how representative is the Dow Jones of the US economy. It is only

:39:37.:39:39.

Jones of the US economy. It is only Jones of the US economy. It is only

:39:39.:39:40.

Jones of the US economy. It is only made up of 30 large companies, it

:39:40.:39:42.

made up of 30 large companies, it made up of 30 large companies, it

:39:42.:39:43.

exclude household brands such as exclude household brands such as

:39:43.:39:45.

exclude household brands such as Apple or Microsoft. Is there a

:39:45.:39:47.

Apple or Microsoft. Is there a disconnect with mainstream America.

:39:47.:39:49.

disconnect with mainstream America. disconnect with mainstream America.

:39:49.:39:50.

A recent national survey found 63% A recent national survey found 63%

:39:50.:39:50.

A recent national survey found 63% of Americans believed their country

:39:50.:39:51.

of Americans believed their country of Americans believed their country

:39:51.:39:52.

to still be in recession, even to still be in recession, even

:39:52.:39:53.

to still be in recession, even to still be in recession, even

:39:53.:39:54.

though it is not. And well they though it is not. And well they

:39:54.:39:55.

though it is not. And well they though it is not. And well they

:39:55.:39:56.

might feel that way. The number of might feel that way. The number of

:39:56.:39:57.

might feel that way. The number of unemployed people has doubled to 12

:39:57.:39:58.

unemployed people has doubled to 12 unemployed people has doubled to 12

:39:58.:39:58.

unemployed people has doubled to 12 million in the last five years. The

:39:58.:40:00.

million in the last five years. The million in the last five years. The

:40:00.:40:01.

million in the last five years. The number of people on food stamps is

:40:01.:40:02.

number of people on food stamps is number of people on food stamps is

:40:02.:40:04.

now 48 million, and the national now 48 million, and the national

:40:04.:40:07.

now 48 million, and the national American debt has jumped in five

:40:07.:40:09.

American debt has jumped in five American debt has jumped in five

:40:09.:40:11.

years from $9 trillion, to $16 years from $9 trillion, to $16

:40:11.:40:13.

years from $9 trillion, to $16 trillion. It is strange there will

:40:13.:40:14.

trillion. It is strange there will trillion. It is strange there will

:40:14.:40:15.

always be, by definition, a always be, by definition, a

:40:15.:40:15.

always be, by definition, a disconnect between the market and

:40:15.:40:16.

disconnect between the market and disconnect between the market and

:40:16.:40:17.

disconnect between the market and the economy. The market is what you

:40:17.:40:19.

the economy. The market is what you the economy. The market is what you

:40:19.:40:20.

call a discounting mechanism. It is call a discounting mechanism. It is

:40:20.:40:21.

call a discounting mechanism. It is trying to look anything from 12-18

:40:22.:40:23.

trying to look anything from 12-18 trying to look anything from 12-18

:40:23.:40:23.

months in advance. There have been months in advance. There have been

:40:23.:40:25.

months in advance. There have been rather more than just green shoots

:40:25.:40:26.

rather more than just green shoots rather more than just green shoots

:40:26.:40:27.

in terms of economic recovery in in terms of economic recovery in

:40:27.:40:29.

the states. Unemployment generally the states. Unemployment generally

:40:29.:40:30.

the states. Unemployment generally speaking is going in the right

:40:30.:40:33.

speaking is going in the right direction, downwards, and set

:40:33.:40:34.

direction, downwards, and set direction, downwards, and set

:40:34.:40:35.

alongside that there are increasing alongside that there are increasing

:40:35.:40:36.

alongside that there are increasing alongside that there are increasing

:40:36.:40:37.

signs of a recovery in the housing signs of a recovery in the housing

:40:37.:40:38.

signs of a recovery in the housing market. That is very important in

:40:38.:40:39.

market. That is very important in market. That is very important in

:40:39.:40:39.

market. That is very important in terms of the US economy. Unless we

:40:39.:40:41.

terms of the US economy. Unless we terms of the US economy. Unless we

:40:41.:40:43.

start getting cocky over here, the start getting cocky over here, the

:40:43.:40:45.

start getting cocky over here, the FTSE share hit an all-time high

:40:45.:40:47.

FTSE share hit an all-time high FTSE share hit an all-time high

:40:47.:40:48.

FTSE share hit an all-time high today, with the FTSE 100 not far

:40:48.:40:49.

today, with the FTSE 100 not far today, with the FTSE 100 not far

:40:49.:40:50.

today, with the FTSE 100 not far off its own peak too. Just like the

:40:50.:40:51.

off its own peak too. Just like the off its own peak too. Just like the

:40:51.:40:53.

states, big British firms are doing states, big British firms are doing

:40:53.:40:55.

states, big British firms are doing very well, while the economy stares

:40:55.:40:56.

very well, while the economy stares very well, while the economy stares

:40:56.:40:58.

down the barrel of a triple-dip down the barrel of a triple-dip

:40:58.:40:59.

down the barrel of a triple-dip recession. One of the problems both

:40:59.:41:00.

recession. One of the problems both recession. One of the problems both

:41:00.:41:02.

in continental Europe and also the in continental Europe and also the

:41:02.:41:03.

in continental Europe and also the UK, is the austerity necessary to

:41:03.:41:06.

UK, is the austerity necessary to UK, is the austerity necessary to

:41:06.:41:07.

bring down deficits is really bring down deficits is really

:41:07.:41:08.

bring down deficits is really impacting the economy that is weak

:41:08.:41:09.

impacting the economy that is weak impacting the economy that is weak

:41:09.:41:10.

impacting the economy that is weak to start with. It is preventing the

:41:10.:41:11.

to start with. It is preventing the to start with. It is preventing the

:41:11.:41:12.

UK economy and the continental UK economy and the continental

:41:12.:41:13.

UK economy and the continental European economy from growing. That

:41:13.:41:14.

European economy from growing. That European economy from growing. That

:41:14.:41:18.

European economy from growing. That does mean the backdrop is a lot

:41:18.:41:20.

does mean the backdrop is a lot does mean the backdrop is a lot

:41:20.:41:21.

more pessimistic. The last two more pessimistic. The last two

:41:21.:41:23.

more pessimistic. The last two stock market peaks were followed

:41:23.:41:24.

stock market peaks were followed stock market peaks were followed

:41:24.:41:26.

closely by recessions, that will closely by recessions, that will

:41:26.:41:28.

affect big companies, but disproportionately tax-payers,

:41:28.:41:29.

disproportionately tax-payers, disproportionately tax-payers,

:41:29.:41:30.

already reeling from the worst already reeling from the worst

:41:30.:41:33.

downturn in a century. downturn in a century.

:41:33.:41:34.

downturn in a century. Back to the announcement of the

:41:34.:41:35.

Back to the announcement of the Back to the announcement of the

:41:35.:41:36.

Back to the announcement of the death of Hugo Chavez. On the phone

:41:36.:41:37.

death of Hugo Chavez. On the phone death of Hugo Chavez. On the phone

:41:37.:41:39.

death of Hugo Chavez. On the phone is my guest, head of Latin American

:41:39.:41:42.

is my guest, head of Latin American Studies at Middlesex University,

:41:42.:41:43.

Studies at Middlesex University, Studies at Middlesex University,

:41:43.:41:43.

Studies at Middlesex University, from New York we have our guest

:41:43.:41:45.

from New York we have our guest from New York we have our guest

:41:46.:41:47.

from the Council for Foreign from the Council for Foreign

:41:47.:41:50.

from the Council for Foreign Relations, and the editor of BBC

:41:50.:41:52.

Relations, and the editor of BBC Relations, and the editor of BBC

:41:52.:41:53.

Relations, and the editor of BBC Mundo. You met him, how is this

:41:53.:41:55.

Mundo. You met him, how is this Mundo. You met him, how is this

:41:55.:41:56.

being received in Venezuela? I met being received in Venezuela? I met

:41:56.:41:59.

being received in Venezuela? I met him here in London, actually, when

:41:59.:42:01.

him here in London, actually, when him here in London, actually, when

:42:01.:42:03.

he came over, invited by Ken he came over, invited by Ken

:42:03.:42:03.

he came over, invited by Ken Livingston, the Mayor of London at

:42:03.:42:04.

Livingston, the Mayor of London at Livingston, the Mayor of London at

:42:04.:42:05.

Livingston, the Mayor of London at the time. How did he seem to you,

:42:05.:42:06.

the time. How did he seem to you, the time. How did he seem to you,

:42:06.:42:08.

the time. How did he seem to you, what kind of man did you think he

:42:08.:42:09.

what kind of man did you think he what kind of man did you think he

:42:09.:42:14.

what kind of man did you think he was? Well he was quite a jolly,

:42:14.:42:16.

was? Well he was quite a jolly, was? Well he was quite a jolly,

:42:16.:42:18.

open and chatty person. He tended open and chatty person. He tended

:42:18.:42:20.

open and chatty person. He tended to break protocol and was quite

:42:21.:42:22.

to break protocol and was quite approachable in every possible

:42:22.:42:23.

approachable in every possible approachable in every possible

:42:23.:42:24.

respect. He was an ordinary, very respect. He was an ordinary, very

:42:24.:42:26.

respect. He was an ordinary, very respect. He was an ordinary, very

:42:26.:42:27.

nice person. What do you think the nice person. What do you think the

:42:27.:42:28.

nice person. What do you think the nice person. What do you think the

:42:28.:42:29.

legacy is in Venezuela? I think the legacy is in Venezuela? I think the

:42:29.:42:30.

legacy is in Venezuela? I think the legacy is one of immense

:42:30.:42:32.

legacy is one of immense progressiveness. The transformation

:42:32.:42:33.

progressiveness. The transformation progressiveness. The transformation

:42:33.:42:34.

of our society through social of our society through social

:42:34.:42:35.

of our society through social progress and expansion of democracy

:42:35.:42:37.

progress and expansion of democracy progress and expansion of democracy

:42:37.:42:37.

progress and expansion of democracy is just incredible. I think we will

:42:37.:42:40.

is just incredible. I think we will is just incredible. I think we will

:42:40.:42:41.

is just incredible. I think we will be able to see in the next coming

:42:41.:42:42.

be able to see in the next coming be able to see in the next coming

:42:42.:42:43.

be able to see in the next coming years, there is no question of it,

:42:43.:42:44.

years, there is no question of it, years, there is no question of it,

:42:45.:42:46.

millions and millions of people millions and millions of people

:42:46.:42:46.

millions and millions of people millions and millions of people

:42:46.:42:47.

have benefited so much as a result have benefited so much as a result

:42:47.:42:48.

have benefited so much as a result of the various policies that were

:42:48.:42:50.

of the various policies that were of the various policies that were

:42:50.:42:53.

implemented. In that sense, the implemented. In that sense, the

:42:53.:42:53.

legacy symbolises the possibility legacy symbolises the possibility

:42:53.:42:56.

legacy symbolises the possibility of doing something much better. I

:42:56.:42:58.

of doing something much better. I of doing something much better. I

:42:58.:42:59.

think this radiates in the whole think this radiates in the whole

:42:59.:43:00.

think this radiates in the whole continent, and much further afield

:43:00.:43:03.

continent, and much further afield continent, and much further afield

:43:03.:43:05.

in that. This has been closely in that. This has been closely

:43:05.:43:06.

in that. This has been closely in that. This has been closely

:43:06.:43:07.

watched in a lot of other soit watched in a lot of other soit

:43:07.:43:08.

watched in a lot of other soit American countries, Cuba is looking

:43:08.:43:09.

American countries, Cuba is looking American countries, Cuba is looking

:43:09.:43:11.

American countries, Cuba is looking at it, because that is where he is?

:43:11.:43:12.

at it, because that is where he is? at it, because that is where he is?

:43:12.:43:13.

at it, because that is where he is? At the moment Cuba is looking very

:43:13.:43:15.

At the moment Cuba is looking very At the moment Cuba is looking very

:43:15.:43:16.

careful low. Because actually some careful low. Because actually some

:43:16.:43:17.

careful low. Because actually some people in Cuba think that they

:43:17.:43:18.

people in Cuba think that they people in Cuba think that they

:43:18.:43:20.

remember the collapse of the Soviet remember the collapse of the Soviet

:43:20.:43:21.

remember the collapse of the Soviet Union, why? Because Hugo Chavez

:43:21.:43:24.

Union, why? Because Hugo Chavez Union, why? Because Hugo Chavez

:43:24.:43:25.

Union, why? Because Hugo Chavez decided to give 100 barrels of --

:43:25.:43:27.

decided to give 100 barrels of -- decided to give 100 barrels of --

:43:27.:43:30.

100,000 barrels of oil to Cuba 100,000 barrels of oil to Cuba

:43:30.:43:32.

100,000 barrels of oil to Cuba 100,000 barrels of oil to Cuba

:43:32.:43:32.

every day. Its economy depend on it. every day. Its economy depend on it.

:43:32.:43:34.

every day. Its economy depend on it. They will be watching carefully

:43:34.:43:35.

They will be watching carefully They will be watching carefully

:43:35.:43:36.

what happened. We know if the what happened. We know if the

:43:36.:43:38.

what happened. We know if the Chavez revolution is a one-man show

:43:38.:43:39.

Chavez revolution is a one-man show Chavez revolution is a one-man show

:43:39.:43:40.

Chavez revolution is a one-man show or he has a successor or not, we

:43:40.:43:41.

or he has a successor or not, we or he has a successor or not, we

:43:41.:43:42.

or he has a successor or not, we will see that in the next 30 days

:43:42.:43:43.

will see that in the next 30 days will see that in the next 30 days

:43:43.:43:43.

will see that in the next 30 days before we need to call an election.

:43:43.:43:44.

before we need to call an election. before we need to call an election.

:43:44.:43:45.

before we need to call an election. What is your bet on that?

:43:45.:43:46.

What is your bet on that? What is your bet on that?

:43:46.:43:46.

What is your bet on that? wouldn't be able to put any money

:43:46.:43:47.

wouldn't be able to put any money wouldn't be able to put any money

:43:48.:43:49.

wouldn't be able to put any money on that. We need to watch this

:43:49.:43:50.

on that. We need to watch this on that. We need to watch this

:43:50.:43:51.

carefully, because in the last more carefully, because in the last more

:43:51.:43:52.

carefully, because in the last more carefully, because in the last more

:43:52.:43:53.

than ten years he was in power, he than ten years he was in power, he

:43:53.:43:54.

than ten years he was in power, he controlled the whole estate, he was

:43:54.:43:56.

controlled the whole estate, he was controlled the whole estate, he was

:43:56.:43:57.

controlled the whole estate, he was a one-man show, and he was a big

:43:57.:44:02.

a one-man show, and he was a big a one-man show, and he was a big

:44:02.:44:04.

personality. Hugo Chavez is famed personality. Hugo Chavez is famed

:44:04.:44:05.

personality. Hugo Chavez is famed for calling the ex-President gush,

:44:05.:44:07.

for calling the ex-President gush, for calling the ex-President gush,

:44:07.:44:10.

for calling the ex-President gush, for calling the ex-President gush,

:44:10.:44:13.

a devil. Is this a point to reset - a devil. Is this a point to reset -

:44:13.:44:14.

a devil. Is this a point to reset - a devil. Is this a point to reset -

:44:14.:44:17.

- George Bush a devil. Is this a - George Bush a devil. Is this a

:44:17.:44:17.

- George Bush a devil. Is this a point to reset relationships?

:44:17.:44:20.

point to reset relationships? point to reset relationships?

:44:20.:44:21.

a point to reset the relationships. a point to reset the relationships.

:44:22.:44:22.

a point to reset the relationships. We heard the heir apparent to

:44:22.:44:24.

We heard the heir apparent to We heard the heir apparent to

:44:24.:44:25.

Chavez within his party, coming out Chavez within his party, coming out

:44:25.:44:26.

Chavez within his party, coming out with strong words against the

:44:26.:44:28.

with strong words against the with strong words against the

:44:28.:44:29.

United States, accusing two US United States, accusing two US

:44:29.:44:29.

United States, accusing two US diplomats of spying on Venezuela

:44:29.:44:32.

diplomats of spying on Venezuela diplomats of spying on Venezuela

:44:32.:44:32.

and causing Chavez's cancer. I and causing Chavez's cancer. I

:44:32.:44:36.

and causing Chavez's cancer. I don't see a re prochment

:44:36.:44:37.

don't see a re prochment don't see a re prochment

:44:37.:44:38.

immediately between the two -- immediately between the two --

:44:38.:44:39.

reproachment between the two reproachment between the two

:44:39.:44:40.

reproachment between the two countries. There is a chance to

:44:40.:44:42.

countries. There is a chance to countries. There is a chance to

:44:42.:44:43.

rebegin the space between the two rebegin the space between the two

:44:43.:44:45.

rebegin the space between the two countries to find areas to work

:44:45.:44:46.

countries to find areas to work countries to find areas to work

:44:46.:44:48.

together on. Both privately and together on. Both privately and

:44:48.:44:49.

together on. Both privately and publicly. By extension, because he

:44:49.:44:51.

publicly. By extension, because he publicly. By extension, because he

:44:51.:44:52.

was close, Bolivia, Argentina, do was close, Bolivia, Argentina, do

:44:52.:44:53.

was close, Bolivia, Argentina, do was close, Bolivia, Argentina, do

:44:53.:44:54.

you think there will be a possible you think there will be a possible

:44:54.:44:56.

you think there will be a possible change in relations with these

:44:56.:44:56.

change in relations with these change in relations with these

:44:56.:45:00.

change in relations with these other countries, and the US? We may

:45:00.:45:02.

other countries, and the US? We may other countries, and the US? We may

:45:02.:45:04.

see some change, very few other see some change, very few other

:45:04.:45:06.

see some change, very few other countries got into the real vitriol,

:45:06.:45:07.

countries got into the real vitriol, countries got into the real vitriol,

:45:07.:45:08.

the name-calling between the two the name-calling between the two

:45:08.:45:08.

the name-calling between the two countries. You haven't seen that

:45:08.:45:11.

countries. You haven't seen that countries. You haven't seen that

:45:11.:45:13.

from the most important neighbours, from the most important neighbours,

:45:13.:45:14.

from the most important neighbours, to Venezuela, Brazil or Columbia,

:45:14.:45:17.

to Venezuela, Brazil or Columbia, to Venezuela, Brazil or Columbia,

:45:17.:45:18.

or even Argentina, where there are or even Argentina, where there are

:45:18.:45:19.

or even Argentina, where there are some issues of tension between the

:45:19.:45:20.

some issues of tension between the some issues of tension between the

:45:20.:45:22.

nations. It is not about Venezuela. nations. It is not about Venezuela.

:45:22.:45:24.

nations. It is not about Venezuela. nations. It is not about Venezuela.

:45:24.:45:25.

Tell me, do you think that the Vice Tell me, do you think that the Vice

:45:25.:45:26.

Tell me, do you think that the Vice President, is a strong enough

:45:26.:45:27.

President, is a strong enough President, is a strong enough

:45:27.:45:28.

character to come forward, or do character to come forward, or do

:45:28.:45:29.

character to come forward, or do character to come forward, or do

:45:29.:45:31.

you think there will be a serious you think there will be a serious

:45:31.:45:31.

you think there will be a serious challenge? He's trying to look very

:45:31.:45:33.

challenge? He's trying to look very challenge? He's trying to look very

:45:34.:45:35.

challenge? He's trying to look very strong. We need to put this into

:45:35.:45:37.

strong. We need to put this into strong. We need to put this into

:45:37.:45:38.

context. The last election the context. The last election the

:45:38.:45:40.

context. The last election the opposition came very strong 45% of

:45:40.:45:41.

opposition came very strong 45% of opposition came very strong 45% of

:45:41.:45:42.

opposition came very strong 45% of the vote. That was the best time,

:45:42.:45:44.

the vote. That was the best time, the vote. That was the best time,

:45:44.:45:44.

the vote. That was the best time, last October, for them. Now he has

:45:44.:45:46.

last October, for them. Now he has last October, for them. Now he has

:45:46.:45:46.

a real challenge, but the a real challenge, but the

:45:46.:45:47.

a real challenge, but the opposition at the same time is

:45:47.:45:48.

opposition at the same time is opposition at the same time is

:45:48.:45:49.

pretty week. Although they got 45% pretty week. Although they got 45%

:45:49.:45:50.

pretty week. Although they got 45% pretty week. Although they got 45%

:45:50.:45:52.

of the vote last time. We have 30 of the vote last time. We have 30

:45:52.:45:53.

of the vote last time. We have 30 of the vote last time. We have 30

:45:53.:45:54.

days, that is going to be a days, that is going to be a

:45:54.:45:57.

days, that is going to be a days, that is going to be a

:45:57.:45:57.

campaign, and then we will see how campaign, and then we will see how

:45:57.:45:59.

campaign, and then we will see how campaign, and then we will see how

:45:59.:46:01.

strong they will come out when they strong they will come out when they

:46:01.:46:03.

go to the polls. go to the polls.

:46:03.:46:05.

go to the polls. From your perspective, what loader

:46:05.:46:06.

From your perspective, what loader From your perspective, what loader

:46:06.:46:09.

do you think might emerge. Because do you think might emerge. Because

:46:09.:46:10.

do you think might emerge. Because do you think might emerge. Because

:46:10.:46:11.

it was just said that election in it was just said that election in

:46:11.:46:13.

it was just said that election in October was the most closely-fought

:46:13.:46:14.

October was the most closely-fought October was the most closely-fought

:46:14.:46:15.

October was the most closely-fought election there had been? I think it

:46:15.:46:16.

election there had been? I think it election there had been? I think it

:46:16.:46:18.

election there had been? I think it will be very hard for anyone except

:46:18.:46:20.

will be very hard for anyone except will be very hard for anyone except

:46:20.:46:21.

for the Chavez candidate, exit for for the Chavez candidate, exit for

:46:21.:46:22.

for the Chavez candidate, exit for for the Chavez candidate, exit for

:46:22.:46:23.

the Vice President to win this next the Vice President to win this next

:46:23.:46:24.

the Vice President to win this next the Vice President to win this next

:46:24.:46:25.

election. It is only 30 days from election. It is only 30 days from

:46:25.:46:26.

election. It is only 30 days from election. It is only 30 days from

:46:26.:46:26.

now. The next two or three weeks now. The next two or three weeks

:46:27.:46:29.

now. The next two or three weeks will be dominated by a state

:46:29.:46:31.

will be dominated by a state funeral, by Hall of

:46:31.:46:33.

funeral, by Hall of funeral, by Hall of

:46:33.:46:35.

Remembranceances of Chavez. And his Remembranceances of Chavez. And his

:46:35.:46:36.

Remembranceances of Chavez. And his -- by other remembrances of Chavez.

:46:36.:46:37.

-- by other remembrances of Chavez. -- by other remembrances of Chavez.

:46:37.:46:38.

-- by other remembrances of Chavez. And his party almost had a Queen

:46:38.:46:40.

And his party almost had a Queen And his party almost had a Queen

:46:40.:46:41.

sleep in elections recently, they sleep in elections recently, they

:46:41.:46:42.

sleep in elections recently, they only lost one governor. I think

:46:42.:46:44.

only lost one governor. I think only lost one governor. I think

:46:44.:46:45.

Chavez's party will remain on top. Chavez's party will remain on top.

:46:45.:46:47.

Chavez's party will remain on top. Chavez's party will remain on top.

:46:47.:46:48.

If you look at several months, the If you look at several months, the

:46:48.:46:48.

medium-to-long-term, the opposition medium-to-long-term, the opposition

:46:48.:46:49.

medium-to-long-term, the opposition medium-to-long-term, the opposition

:46:49.:46:50.

may be able to come together and may be able to come together and

:46:50.:46:52.

may be able to come together and give a run for their moneyor

:46:52.:46:53.

give a run for their moneyor give a run for their moneyor

:46:53.:46:54.

Chavez's party, when Chavez is not there.

:46:54.:46:56.

there. there.

:46:56.:46:56.

there. Thank you very much, that is us

:46:56.:46:57.

Thank you very much, that is us Thank you very much, that is us

:46:57.:46:58.

Thank you very much, that is us right out of time, from all of us

:46:58.:46:59.

right out of time, from all of us right out of time, from all of us

:46:59.:47:09.
:47:09.:47:11.

It has been a day of contrast, up It has been a day of contrast, up

:47:11.:47:13.

It has been a day of contrast, up It has been a day of contrast, up

:47:13.:47:13.

to 17 degrees in the sunshine. Two to 17 degrees in the sunshine. Two

:47:13.:47:14.

to 17 degrees in the sunshine. Two degrees where it stayed fogy. We

:47:14.:47:15.

degrees where it stayed fogy. We degrees where it stayed fogy. We

:47:15.:47:15.

degrees where it stayed fogy. We start the day on Wednesday with a

:47:16.:47:17.

start the day on Wednesday with a start the day on Wednesday with a

:47:17.:47:17.

start the day on Wednesday with a lot of cloud. Not anything like as

:47:17.:47:18.

lot of cloud. Not anything like as lot of cloud. Not anything like as

:47:18.:47:20.

lot of cloud. Not anything like as much sunshine as many of us saw son

:47:20.:47:21.

much sunshine as many of us saw son much sunshine as many of us saw son

:47:21.:47:23.

Tuesday. Dampness too out west. Tuesday. Dampness too out west.

:47:23.:47:23.

Tuesday. Dampness too out west. Tuesday. Dampness too out west.

:47:23.:47:24.

Further east there won't be much in Further east there won't be much in

:47:24.:47:25.

Further east there won't be much in Further east there won't be much in

:47:25.:47:26.

the rain. There will be cloud we the rain. There will be cloud we

:47:26.:47:27.

the rain. There will be cloud we will notice. Any brightness will be

:47:27.:47:29.

will notice. Any brightness will be will notice. Any brightness will be

:47:29.:47:30.

will notice. Any brightness will be at a premium. It might brighten up

:47:30.:47:31.

at a premium. It might brighten up at a premium. It might brighten up

:47:31.:47:32.

later on across southern counties, later on across southern counties,

:47:32.:47:35.

later on across southern counties, we will probably reach 11-12, not

:47:35.:47:36.

we will probably reach 11-12, not we will probably reach 11-12, not

:47:36.:47:37.

as warm in places during Tuesday. as warm in places during Tuesday.

:47:37.:47:38.

as warm in places during Tuesday. Further dampness, on and off,

:47:38.:47:39.

Further dampness, on and off, Further dampness, on and off,

:47:39.:47:40.

affecting the more western parts of affecting the more western parts of

:47:40.:47:41.

affecting the more western parts of affecting the more western parts of

:47:41.:47:42.

England and Wales. It won't be a England and Wales. It won't be a

:47:42.:47:43.

England and Wales. It won't be a washout, there will be some dry

:47:43.:47:44.

washout, there will be some dry washout, there will be some dry

:47:44.:47:45.

washout, there will be some dry spells, but not much in the way of

:47:45.:47:45.

spells, but not much in the way of spells, but not much in the way of

:47:45.:47:46.

sunshine. There will be the threat sunshine. There will be the threat

:47:47.:47:48.

sunshine. There will be the threat sunshine. There will be the threat

:47:48.:47:50.

of rain on and off through the day of rain on and off through the day

:47:50.:47:51.

of rain on and off through the day across parts of Wales and England.

:47:51.:47:53.

across parts of Wales and England. across parts of Wales and England.

:47:53.:47:53.

The threat of rain increases across The threat of rain increases across

:47:53.:47:54.

The threat of rain increases across Northern Ireland as we go through

:47:54.:47:56.

Northern Ireland as we go through Northern Ireland as we go through

:47:56.:47:56.

Northern Ireland as we go through the day. For Scotland some of the

:47:56.:47:58.

the day. For Scotland some of the the day. For Scotland some of the

:47:58.:47:59.

the day. For Scotland some of the best of the sunshine will be across

:47:59.:48:00.

best of the sunshine will be across best of the sunshine will be across

:48:00.:48:01.

the Highlands and Ireland, with the Highlands and Ireland, with

:48:01.:48:02.

the Highlands and Ireland, with shelter from the mountains from the

:48:02.:48:04.

shelter from the mountains from the shelter from the mountains from the

:48:04.:48:04.

nagging Eastleigh breeze. That will nagging Eastleigh breeze. That will

:48:04.:48:06.

nagging Eastleigh breeze. That will be a cold breeze. That will

:48:06.:48:07.

be a cold breeze. That will be a cold breeze. That will

:48:07.:48:08.

continue across many northern areas continue across many northern areas

:48:08.:48:11.

through Wednesday, and Thursday. through Wednesday, and Thursday.

:48:11.:48:11.

through Wednesday, and Thursday. Bleak across eastern parts of

:48:11.:48:13.

Bleak across eastern parts of Scotland and north-east England.

:48:13.:48:14.

Scotland and north-east England. Scotland and north-east England.

:48:14.:48:15.

Head southwards, not so cold, but Head southwards, not so cold, but

:48:16.:48:17.

Head southwards, not so cold, but Head southwards, not so cold, but

:48:17.:48:18.

not much in the way of brightness not much in the way of brightness

:48:18.:48:19.

not much in the way of brightness here either. A cloudy scene through

:48:19.:48:20.

here either. A cloudy scene through Wednesday and Thursday, with

:48:20.:48:22.

Wednesday and Thursday, with Wednesday and Thursday, with

:48:22.:48:23.

outbreak of rain. This is outbreak of rain. This is

:48:23.:48:24.

outbreak of rain. This is Thursday's picture. Blobs of blue

:48:24.:48:26.

Thursday's picture. Blobs of blue Thursday's picture. Blobs of blue

:48:26.:48:27.

around, you will notice. Don't take around, you will notice. Don't take

:48:27.:48:28.