18/04/2013 Newsnight


18/04/2013

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Gavin Esler.


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Transcript


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Tonight, the murder that shocked the country, shook up the criminal

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justice system and resulted as being institutionally racist, now

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20 years on from the killing of Steven Lawrence, we look at what

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has changed. The police are the people you go to when you are lost,

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the police are the nice people who will help you on the street. But

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after you have experienced stop- and-search your perception of them

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changes. We will hear from the Metropolitan Police and ask how

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British society and our views of race have changed. Also tonight, we

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have the very latest on the Boston bombings, the FBI have said they

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have identified two suspects. And it has taken 118 years. But now the

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American Marin Alsop will be the first woman to conduct that great

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British institution, the Last Night of the Proms. So why are there so

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few women conductors in top orchestras. We remember the artist

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who designed Pink Floyd's album covers.

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It was the moment that was supposed to change hout police in Britain

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look and behaviour, a moment that shocked the realities of racism.

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The murder of Stephen Lawrence 20 years ago next week saw a black

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teenager killed because of the colour of his skin. It also saw the

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Macpherson Inquiry into the competence of the police at the

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time. And the Metropolitan Police was accused of institutional racism.

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We want to devote a large part of the programme to explore what has

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changed in our institutions and society in those 20 years. First is

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some voices giving their answers and observations on relations

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between the police and part of the communities they serve.

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I don't feel the police are on my side. The police have almost

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severed their ties with us. They are not trusted and so the police

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will be expecting operation, but you don't co-operate with people

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you don't trust. If you have never had positive interactions with the

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police and you can't necessarily trust them, why should I or anyone

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else put my trust in you? There are a lot of good police officers, I

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have come across quite a few myself. I have also come across some who

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abuse their powers. I believe one of the things that changed the

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relationship between the and the community is that they were ready

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to listen. Le # I went to the house # Where I was.

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I was at university when Stephen was murdered. I identified with him

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because it absolutely could have been me.

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It took the experience of black communities and part of what were

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very often private conversations about how those communities felt

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about the police and it took the lid off that and showed it to white

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society. In such a way that was It was a moment in which a page

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turned on race relations. The quest for justice began. It took too long,

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but that has been a huge opportunity that still has to be

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seized. Here at Life magazine we deal with a range of youth issues,

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anything from music, fashion, news, politics. But one of the issues

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that keeps coming up is policing and how the police deal with the

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community. One of the issues that we are always discussing is the

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issue of stop-and-search. I can recall the first time I got stopped

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and search. I think I was 13. I was 11 I had been to go and see

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Harry Potter with my friend in Sutton. Because my school is where

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it is I have a season ticket to get there for the whole term. It was an

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expensive ticket. And when I came back from leaving the station the

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police were doing the ticket checks and the oyster card checks to make

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sure everyone had paid for their journey, when I gave the officer my

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ticket he was asking me where did I get the money for the ticket? He

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got me to empty out my pockets. can be quite humiliating for a

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person just to be put out in public while we are people are going about

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their business. It is not a great dealing. I think just my many times

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experience in that and the way the police interact with me it is

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tainted my relationship with the police. I was quite upset about the

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whole thing, it was quite scary, I didn't see what I had done wrong.

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In some ways I think that's when your innocence gets lost because,

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you know, it is the police, the police are the people you go to

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when you are lost, the police are those nice people that will help

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you on the street. But after you have experienced stop-and-search I

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think you are perception of them You have to look at stop-and-search

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in the context of the investigation of street crimes. That's the issue

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that you are looking at. You are either trying in the immediate

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aftermath of a crime to find a suspect and find evidence by

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flooding an area with police officers and then searching

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everybody that you come across. Or you are doing it in a way that you

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have had information that a certain group of people are selling drugs

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and you are hoping to intervene in that and maybe get the drugs

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recovered and get evidence for a prosecution Everything is that we

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know about policing requires the co-operation of the public. If the

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public are alienated, and the public aren't alienated just bus of

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police, but if the police are engaging with the public in ways

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that adds to that sense of alienation and humiliation, the

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public will not come forward and co-operate and not act as witnesses

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and give information in the same way they would. That is the life

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blood of policing. In 1993 I don't recognise collect a remember --

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recollect a serious concern about gang violence and gangs. There were

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not young people being stabbed in our streets, or gunned down. So I

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think that the political pressure to do something about that led to

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an increase in stop-and-search. And that stop-and-search was badly,

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badly mishandled. My cousin was murdered in October 2007 and the

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case was not solved. It was a situation as to where he was, I

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guess it came across that he was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

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Someone must have seen something, someone must have heard something.

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They might have had the smallest bit of information but perhaps fear

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made them keep quiet. So because of that the police didn't really have

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enough to go on to solve the situation. The police kind of

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expect you to co-operate with them and tell them everything, but once

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you do that, they go back to their station and stuff, but it is you

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who still has to stay in the community. You have to deal with

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the aftermath of that. So if you were to tell them something in

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confidence and it comes out that it was you that told them, and they

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are not there to actually protect you then it is bad situation.

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often the police rely on reference groups and ways in which the

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community can speak to the police. In the end what we need is for the

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police to be the community. So that we have a Police Service not a

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police force. The 20-year-old was shot three times, the police say

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they have no motive for his killing. He was driving his car along this

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road in nearby Hulme. In 1999 I had a call one evening to say that my

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son was shot. And by the time I had reached the hospital he was dead.

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My son was shot three times in the back. One of the bullets was fatal.

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We have never actually heard anything about the case. We have

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heard rumours on the street. But I think rumours are just rumours. I

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don't like talking about them. I did not believe my son was part of

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a gang and no-one has ever said that before his death or after his

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death. I went out trying to find out where the gangs were hanging

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out, what I could do to meet them and talk to them. One of the things

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that happened quite a lot and was complained about a lot with young

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black men was the police and the way they treated them on the

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streets. Sometimes for no apparent reason they would be stopped and

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searched. I felt that what the police were doing, the relationship

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with the police and black men wasn't really very good. It was

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getting worse, really. The high proportion of murders, shootings

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has dropped drastically. That is all because the police and the

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community has come together, the police has listened to the

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community and now we are working together. Whenever you come

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together and work together then things will change. I think it is

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niave to believe that there aren't communities where the police are

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hated. If you start talking about trying to build trust in those

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kinds of areas you have a long way to go before you even get to the

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starting line. This mistrust has been built up over many, many years,

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with problems on both sides. Maybe problems on insensitive policing on

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the one hand, but also problems with a very high crime rate on the

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other hand. The fundamental question today is a question of

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trust. All public authorities actually, there are big questions

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of trust. We have seen this with MPs. We have seen this with the

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journalists, all sorts of sections of community there are questions of

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trust. But I think if policing by consent is to survive, then there

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need to be considerably more trust between young people and the police,

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and between parts of, not all of, but parts of the black community.

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I understand the police do have some difficult jobs to do. I

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understand that they might need the support of a community. But in

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order to get the support of a community you need the trust of a

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community. It is a hand in hand. Your community will support the

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police if the community trusts the police. And in order for the

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community to trust the police the police need to show that they are

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on the community's side and they are here to help. Stkpwhrfl for

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their thoughts on what has changed since the Stephen Lawrence case.

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I'm joined by Sean Leopold, a graduate who is a marketing

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executive. The writer Dreda Say Mitchell, Pastor Bishop Wayne Brown,

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the Reverend Rose Hudson-Wilkin, chaplain to the Speaker of the

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House of Commons and the Queen. Assistant Commissioner Simon Byrne

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of the Metropolitan Police. I want to begin talking about the police

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if we can. That was what much of the report was about. I just

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wondered what your thoughts were when you hear young people say it

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does change your perception of the police who we need, when you get

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stopped and searched and you get angry? It was a really interesting

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film. I take the cue from what you said in the introduction. You

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talked about the police on trial at the time of Macpherson and the

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Lawrence trial. We have been on probation ever since is my analogy.

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The stories were very powerful. I won't pretend personally that a

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police force and personally that we don't listen to those. The Police

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Commissioner has been struck by the story around about 18 months ago if

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you are a young black man in London your experience of stop-and-search

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of not a good one. The best thing we can do is demonstrate by deed

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rather than word. We have listened hard, I'm sure people have

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experienced both in the room and outside the studio about what the

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Met has done, I think we have done some significant things,

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particularly around stop-search. There is more to do. We do less,

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the number of stop-searches have fallen, we do it more effectively,

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one in five people we stop we get a result on. We either arrest them or

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find evidence. We do it more fairly because the number of complaints

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have fallen. If you take all that together in a context where serious

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crime in London has fallen quite dramatically. If you take the

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example again from the film, going back to Greater Manchester, my last

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force in actual fact. Serious youth crime, which affects young men

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under the age of 25 has fallen by a third last year. Street robbery in

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London, as I see it today is down by nearly a third. You presumably

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accept the young man who said he was coming from a Harry Potter film

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and he got stopped and searched, it changed his perception, that still

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goes on, that is not just a problem for him but a problem for you. You

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presumably want to police with his consent and the consent of the rest

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of the community? That story does not sound something I would be

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professionally proud of. You go back, as much as we are sitting

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hereed today, 20 years after an awful murder. We are also 200 years

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after Sir Robert Peel founded the police force on that principle, I'm

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a person in uniform, I get the authority to police the streets as

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do my officers from the people of London. We have to listen. Would it

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help you and the community if there were more black police officers,

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Macpherson wanted 7%, it is 5% in England and Wales the Met figures

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are different. You said greater man chest, the Chief Constable there

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said it is not about political correctness, it is about

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operational need. We need a more diverse Police Service, we haven't

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got it? No, we have made some improvements right through the

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ranks of the Police Service, over a period of time the number of police

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officers on the streets in London is 10%, as your film showed that

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doesn't reflect the population of London. The actual population of

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London and the demographics is changing rapidly we need to keep

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pace with that. How do you do that? I mean the whole question of

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positive discim nation -- discrimination usually comes up,

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and can you promote them. It is not just the police and other

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institutions too who fail to put ethically diverse people in the top

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ranks as well. That is certainly true of the police? Firstly, four

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of my senior colleagues are black and minority ethnic officers that

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is a lot, a team of 28 senior stprs. People will judge that from outside

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the Metropolitan Police. Outside of London, despite the as you tert we

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will bring in 5,000 officers into the Met. We will try to recruit

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those from the population of London. We want to reflect how the

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population looks. Be the community. You are a leader within your

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community, do you find that you should explain perhaps to some

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young people this is maybe irritating but it might cut down

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gun crime, drug crime and so on, things we are all too familiar

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with? I don't know if it is my duty to explain to those young people

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I'm not always with them. Their experience is so real and so true

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that I can't say it doesn't happen to them. I will tell you this

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though outside of my church on a Sunday evening at church service

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two guys were coming in who are members of the church and they were

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stopped by six police outside and they did not accept that they were

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coming into church. So what we do now as a church to combat that sort

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of approach is to say well let us organise ourselves so our church is

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maybe of the citizens UK, London citizens, and we work with the

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Metropolitan Police and the City Safe programmes, we say let's

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organise ourselves and get ourselves together. In truth we

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can't expect an institution to actually cater for the needs of our

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community. So you basically are saying the community has

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responsibility, you have responsibilities as well, it is not

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just pointing the finger? It is twofold, two prongs of a fork as it

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were. There is a job the police have to do. There is also a job

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that we as a community have to do, we have to organise. I wondered

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what you felt, the Assistant Commissioner is talking about

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things have changed in all sorts of ways. Do you see that stop-and-

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search is still a major irritant or something less of an irritant?

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is an irritant. I have to say. When you look at the Macpherson Report

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and the recommendations. He talked very explicitly about institutional

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racism, you have to keep the spotlight on the institution. In

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that instance you are talking about the police. I can talk about and

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search it happened to me four years ago when I was on my way to the BBC

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to be a guest on the show. It was interesting, it was a knife search

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at a tube station, I got searched, he didn't mind, I was really for

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that, I want to join in helping to fight knife crime, just like

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anybody else. However, when I got to the BBC, there was another guest

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there, she was white, similar age to me, she said what happened to

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her at the tube station was that the police waved her around the

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metal detector, you have to ask yourself why is that happening. She

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looked very different from me, I looked very much like I do today

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with my Jeannes and boot on. You have to ask yourself is there a

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type of look that people are looking for? But I have to say I

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was encouraged by this, when I phoned the police to complain I was

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actively advised to complain. were advised by the police to

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complain? Yes, and I don't think that would have happened years ago.

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But I have to say we were talking about complaints going down in

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relation to stop-and-search. When I spoke to my family a lot of them

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said they wouldn't have even bothered to phone the police.

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Complaints may have gone down, is that signifying that complaints are

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going down or people can't be bothered. Did you find out why?

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did, it was, you could take this as a compliment, they thought I was in

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the 18-30 age range and that I might have been a gang member's

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girlfriend carrying their weapons for them. But you have to put that

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alongside somebody else, similar group, different ethnicity gets

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waved around the metal detector I get stopped and search. That is a

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very good point. Going back four years a going through the facts and

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figures and you quoted some on the film. The most experience of stop-

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search with the Met is driven by two powers. One comes from when we

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generally want to look for people behaving suspiciously, and looking

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for stolen goods or drugs, that causes an sie. But the example you

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talk about is something we call a section 60 search, where there has

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been violence in a particular location and we fear it. That power

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which has to be signed off by a senior officer gives officers the

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permission to randomly search people. I'm guessing that's what

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happened to you. Randomly, I think you have to think, if you are going

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to do that, why not let everyone go through the metal detector, surely

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that is the fair thing. When you see somebody similar to you but the

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race is different? There must be profiling going on out there.

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it is a very interesting issue, I would say a few things, it is four

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years ago. Those powers that were probably used in that example, I

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don't know specifically, but they have reduced by nearly 99%. So that

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when it used to be almost a tick in the box and confetti, we don't do

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operations like that routinely any more. I have gone through this

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training myself. The guidance to frontline officers, we have an on-

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line training package that every officer in the Met has been asked

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to complete, it talks about no hunches and no stereotypes. We are

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learning from experiences like yours to be far more intelligent

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about it. I'm convinced some of the dramatic falls in crime this year

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is targeting the right people. help from the community I want to

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bring in everybody else, briefly do you think that is true, there is

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more help from the community now that things have changed or not?

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I'm not sure when I talk to the young men in my family so many are

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stopped and searched. They wear suits and drive cars. When I talk

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to people at the grassroots people are reticent about helping the

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police. We began by talking about how institutions have changed, you

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are part of various institutions, do you think that has changed and

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people see much more of a stake in society and there is more

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opportunities within various black communities to get on? There have

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been some changes over the 20 years. But not enough. If I was writing a

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school report I would say there is still a lot more work to be done.

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That is the reality. The police is only a small section of society so

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to speak. And they are from the community. I think that there is

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still profiling going on not just in your institution, but in other

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institutions. 17 years ago I approached a group, a religious

0:23:320:23:38

group, church group, I said to them if you have a vacancy and I apply

0:23:380:23:43

for it would you accept me? Would you offer me an interview and this

0:23:430:23:46

wonderful beautiful Christian woman looked at me and said we don't have

0:23:460:23:51

any black people here, so why would we think of having you! I smiled

0:23:510:23:56

and I said isn't that interesting. So you can go to the inner city or

0:23:560:24:01

Africa et and work with black people but -- et cetera and work

0:24:010:24:05

with black people but we can't work with you. There is something there

0:24:050:24:10

still in people's mind, that was 17 years ago. I can guarantee that

0:24:100:24:14

there is still that mentality today, it hasn't gone very far. There is

0:24:140:24:19

an issue still in society in terms of racism. You broke into one of

0:24:190:24:23

the great British institutions, Oxford for a start. Did you feel

0:24:240:24:28

when you looked around at the other students, did you feel you fitted

0:24:280:24:32

in, you don't fit in, you fit in intellectually but you are

0:24:320:24:36

different? It is really interesting point. I have never personally

0:24:360:24:39

experienced overt racism, never at my time at Oxford for example.

0:24:390:24:42

However, you do have to stop and think every now and again, you look

0:24:420:24:47

up from your books as it were and you realise there aren't all that

0:24:470:24:52

many people around me that look like me. You ask the question why

0:24:520:24:57

is that? Is it me who is overachieving, is it because this

0:24:570:25:01

is normal or I got lucky. Going into Oxford I went to a state

0:25:010:25:05

school and state secondary school, I live on a council estate. I did

0:25:050:25:10

for most of my life, I was raised by a single mother. From a

0:25:100:25:16

demographic perspective, I live in central London, from a demographic

0:25:160:25:20

perspective it shouldn't work, I did achieve T I didn't overtly feel

0:25:200:25:27

problems while I was there in terms of racial tension. From a

0:25:270:25:30

statistical perspective, statistically black males who get

0:25:300:25:34

into Oxford are less than 1% of the population. In your professional

0:25:340:25:39

life do you have the same thing of looking around and saying where are

0:25:390:25:44

the people who look like me? It is something you don't say or bring it

0:25:440:25:48

up. I have never felt uncomfortable. It is the sheer numbers, when you

0:25:480:25:51

stop and think it is just you and maybe one other person, it makes

0:25:520:25:55

you ask questions, that is all. was pointed out that everybody has

0:25:550:25:58

a responsibility here, including communities. Where is the problem,

0:25:590:26:03

do you see this as a problem, or do you see this as the beginning of

0:26:030:26:07

opportunities that might take a long time? I'm not sure I agree

0:26:070:26:12

with the whole premise that it is a two-way thing, that the community

0:26:120:26:15

has to do along with the institution. We have a clear signal

0:26:150:26:19

from the Fiorentina report and recommendations, institutional

0:26:190:26:23

racism. For the first time in society we had to wake up to racism

0:26:230:26:28

is not about one individual, it is not about a few rotten apples in a

0:26:280:26:31

barrel, you are talking about institution, and particularly in

0:26:310:26:34

that instance public institutions that are there to serve everyone.

0:26:340:26:38

That is what we should be really talking about I feel. An American

0:26:380:26:43

politician once talked about the bigotry of low expectation, that

0:26:430:26:46

does affect the community, if people think you are not going to

0:26:460:26:49

achieve you might not achieve? There has to be something to be

0:26:490:26:53

said. And I'm not disagreeing with you, I understand your point. There

0:26:530:26:58

has to be something said about what we are doing for ourselves. Are we

0:26:580:27:02

educating ourselves. Are we mentoring ourselves. And that quote

0:27:020:27:10

that you said from the report, there is another guy called Dr

0:27:100:27:15

Woodson, he wrote the book The Miseducation of the Growing negro,

0:27:150:27:18

he said if you train someone to use the back door they will never seek

0:27:180:27:22

to use the front door. What has happened over a generation is

0:27:220:27:29

unfortunately we have not as a community not taken hold of

0:27:290:27:34

ourselves. What do you think about that? Racism is about having the

0:27:340:27:38

power over an individual, it is not just about I don't like you because

0:27:380:27:42

of the colour of your skin. What we are dealing with today is a legacy

0:27:420:27:46

of empire that says the black person is of no worth is of no

0:27:460:27:50

value. So for example every time we talk about why don't we have more

0:27:500:27:57

black people in the police, in the church in the BBC for example, then

0:27:570:28:01

we get to oh but we need to have the right person as implying that

0:28:010:28:06

we haven't got the skills and the ability et cetera to do it. We are

0:28:060:28:10

capable of being trained just like you are. You know, and so there is

0:28:100:28:16

a real issue. We need to change the tunes in our head and stop

0:28:160:28:20

impacting on the lives of people. We have just a couple of minutes

0:28:200:28:24

left, you give one definition of racism, the one thing that probably

0:28:240:28:29

strikes all of us is the football chants, the overtness of it is

0:28:290:28:33

still there, but it is much, much diminished? It is but I think we

0:28:330:28:36

keep talking about that too much. That is not what we are talking

0:28:360:28:40

about, it is an issue about power, institutions, there is only so much

0:28:400:28:44

a community can do. At the end of the day if they are blocked what

0:28:440:28:46

more can they do it is the institution that has to change.

0:28:460:28:51

also need to look, it is interesting sports, interesting

0:28:510:28:57

music, those fields, loads and loads of people from ethnic

0:28:570:29:00

backgrounds because there is an expectation. There was a time when

0:29:000:29:03

institutions like education used to channel our children into those

0:29:030:29:06

areas. And what we have seen is that young black people growing up

0:29:060:29:09

have seen reflections of themselves in those areas, so they know they

0:29:090:29:14

can do it. But they are not seeing reflection of themselves in other

0:29:140:29:20

areas. I think that is a very interesting point. Of yesteryear,

0:29:200:29:23

particularly from ThatGrapeJuice perspective, in the music industry

0:29:230:29:28

you will find in the 1990s we went through an era of rappers, it was

0:29:280:29:33

very bling, and the black people represented were flamboyant and

0:29:330:29:36

uneducated, they flashed their money. It wasn't the best

0:29:360:29:41

representation of black people. I feel like what you have seen over

0:29:410:29:44

time the perfect example is rapper Jay-Z, he has been around for a

0:29:450:29:48

long time and made the transition to the modern day. I believe he has

0:29:480:29:53

been respected more as a businessman and entrepeneur. All

0:29:530:29:56

that previous culture of what it meant to be successful and black

0:29:570:30:00

has diminished. Your sense from the start of the conversation is the

0:30:000:30:04

Met has a long way to go? It has some way to go in some things. The

0:30:040:30:08

best people to judge are the people in the room and the people we

0:30:080:30:12

police in London. If I'm inside looking out I will be tainted by my

0:30:120:30:16

own personal experience. In terms of optimisim, we are listening, the

0:30:160:30:20

last bit of the discussion, the Met is on the cusp of ideas around

0:30:200:30:23

direct entry. If you are looking at the point about having role models

0:30:240:30:27

and encouraging people there is a future in policing for people from

0:30:270:30:30

all sorts of communities across London. There is probably some

0:30:300:30:34

people in the room to look at the direct entry scheme when it is

0:30:340:30:41

launched. Thank you. Coming up, music to the

0:30:410:30:47

ears of the Proms fans, Doctor Who and the Daleks will return. The

0:30:470:30:52

last night will be conducted by a woman! We will be composing an

0:30:520:30:55

interview with her. Barack Obama returned to the city where he and

0:30:550:30:59

his wife went to university. Boston, to more on those who lost their

0:30:590:31:05

lives and consoled those injured in the marathon. The FBI have been

0:31:050:31:12

speaking and released images of two suspects. We're in Boston.

0:31:120:31:17

For the past 36 hours it has been known that the FBI had images from

0:31:170:31:20

surveillance cameras around the bomb sites of people they had taken

0:31:210:31:24

a strong interest in. But they haven't shown them to us, and last

0:31:240:31:28

night a press conference where it was expected that would happen was

0:31:280:31:33

cancelled, leaving the field open to rampant speculation from all

0:31:330:31:37

quarters as to who these individuals might be and what they

0:31:370:31:41

might look like. Tonight the FBI tried to regain control of the

0:31:410:31:47

initiative in this information campaign with this announcement.

0:31:470:31:51

They are identified as suspect 1 and suspect 2. They appear to be

0:31:510:31:56

associated. Suspect 1 is wearing a dark hat, suspect 2 is wearing a

0:31:570:32:01

white hat. Suspect 2 set down a back pack at the site of the second

0:32:020:32:08

explosive, just in front of the Forum Restaurant.

0:32:080:32:12

Now we have seen them, the men were described by the FBI as being

0:32:120:32:16

potentially armed and dangerous. And they urged the public not to

0:32:170:32:21

approach them. To what extent does this fill some of the pretty big

0:32:220:32:29

gaps. Let's assume the FBI is correct in

0:32:290:32:34

naming these two people as suspects, it hasn't been a terrible mistake.

0:32:340:32:38

Presumably this is what part of the delay was about, really trying to

0:32:380:32:42

drill and make sure they couldn't identify these people by the

0:32:420:32:47

methods. In the first place this dispels the Lone Wolf theory. They

0:32:470:32:51

talk about the two suspects, one of whom is seen to place a rucksack in

0:32:510:32:56

a place where one of the bomb went off. In the second place it will,

0:32:560:33:00

if you like give some clues as to their possible identity. This is a

0:33:000:33:05

difficult one though, you can look at those pictures very closely as

0:33:050:33:11

we have during the past 45-minutes, these people could be of middle

0:33:110:33:15

eastern origin or European origin. There are still many questions open

0:33:150:33:21

and there will be a continuation of a good deal of uneasiness and fear

0:33:210:33:28

and speculation of a kind that we have seen here in recent days.

0:33:280:33:32

sought to intimidate us, terrorise us, well it should be pretty clear

0:33:320:33:36

by now that they picked the wrong city to do it. Outside the

0:33:360:33:41

Cathedral of the Holy Cross, people listened to the service. Many wore

0:33:410:33:46

the black of mourning. They had been drawn there by an on-line

0:33:460:33:50

appeal to thwart anti-Obama protestors who might try to hijack

0:33:510:33:55

the event. I started a group on Facebook to get people to come down

0:33:550:33:58

to show solidarity and support for the victims. As of this morning

0:33:580:34:02

there is 7,000 people or so part of the movement. As you can see there

0:34:020:34:06

is several thousand people that showed up today for support. Inside

0:34:060:34:11

the President attended a multifaith service for the victims. An action

0:34:110:34:15

his adviser felt was best calibrated neither to reLuiz

0:34:150:34:20

Eduardo the perpetrator nor to arouse accusations of political

0:34:200:34:25

opportunism. Your city is with you, your

0:34:250:34:29

Commonwealth is with you, your country is with you, we will all be

0:34:290:34:35

with you as you learn to stand and walk, and yes run again, of that I

0:34:350:34:45
0:34:450:34:47

have no doubt you will run again. APPLAUSE

0:34:470:34:53

You will run again. This is a city in which many

0:34:530:35:00

versions of what happened on Monday, who did it and why now vie for

0:35:000:35:05

attention. Do you think there are dangers in the rush to look for

0:35:050:35:07

culprits? Surely there are, and the President is trying to be cautious

0:35:070:35:17

and say let as not point fingers until we really know. There is a

0:35:170:35:27
0:35:270:35:28

vigilante kind of instinct here, find the people and string them up.

0:35:280:35:33

On social media many theories are flagged up, and people pointed out

0:35:330:35:39

as potential bombers. Here we have blurred them, some look middle

0:35:390:35:48

eastern, and others an grow white men. The theories show shown in the

0:35:480:35:52

posters. Yesterday the feebbriel atmosphere could be seen, it wasn't

0:35:520:35:57

a lynch mob, more the crowd of the curious driven by rumour and

0:35:570:36:01

supposition. An hour ago rumours spread that a man was in custody

0:36:010:36:06

and about to be charged here at the courthouse. Run hundreds of people

0:36:060:36:10

have appeared -- hundreds of people have appeared and dozens of TV

0:36:100:36:13

crews. They are staying here even though now it has been officially

0:36:130:36:17

denied by the police and the Government that anybody at all is

0:36:170:36:20

in custody. It is a measure of how much the atmosphere is driven by

0:36:200:36:25

rumour, and in a way a secondary affect that a terrorist would have

0:36:250:36:34

wanted to create. Evacuate, I'm not asking I'm telling you to. Then the

0:36:340:36:38

temperature went up another notch, everyone was evacuated, including

0:36:380:36:43

the court's creche. Someone had phoned in a bomb hoax. This crowd

0:36:430:36:47

persisted for hours. Even when it ought to have been clear there was

0:36:470:36:53

no prisoner and no bomb. But people go by gut instinct and prejudice in

0:36:530:36:58

this climate. You have 300 million people in this country, you don't

0:36:580:37:07

need more than a few whackos to do something like that. They know the

0:37:070:37:10

heightened sense of security and their intention was to get

0:37:100:37:15

publicity and attention, what better time to do it. The forensic

0:37:150:37:19

teams combing the sites are still finding clues. It is their quest

0:37:190:37:23

for hard fact that provides the fuel that ought to resolve the

0:37:230:37:27

theories about who did it and why. Most Bostonians meanwhile are

0:37:270:37:33

trying to press on regardless. this town the three things we care

0:37:330:37:37

about most are sports, politics and revenge. But when I say revenge I

0:37:370:37:43

don't mean it in a violent sense at all. The best revenge we can take

0:37:430:37:47

against these people is to not let them change the way we live our

0:37:470:37:55

lives. With feelings still inflaipltd and little coming from

0:37:550:37:59

the inquiry, the -- inflamed and little coming from the inquiry, the

0:37:590:38:02

vacuum has been filled with speculation, and the affect

0:38:020:38:05

amplified by media old and new. There will be answers, but some

0:38:050:38:08

will choose to believe other explanations. Those that emerged

0:38:080:38:17

during these days of the aftermath. An American conductor, Marin Alsop,

0:38:170:38:20

will make history this summer as the first woman in more than a

0:38:210:38:23

hundred years to conduct that great British institution, the Last Night

0:38:230:38:27

of the Proms. This year's Proms begin in July and will include

0:38:270:38:30

anything from the Tardis, celebrating the 50th anniversary of

0:38:300:38:36

Doctor Who, to hip hop, Nigel Kennedy and Wagner's Ring Cycle.

0:38:360:38:40

The last night will include Rule Britannia, pomp and circumstance

0:38:400:38:47

and a lot of flags. This is the woman who will conduct

0:38:470:38:54

the Last Night of the Proms this year. Strangely it tends to be men

0:38:540:39:00

who wagle a little stick around in public. Is there a fraudian doctor

0:39:000:39:09

in the house! Freudian doctor in the house! Marin Alsop is the

0:39:090:39:14

conductor of the Symphony Orchestra, and has done a lot to bring music

0:39:140:39:18

to the underprivileged. But conducting a last night, some say

0:39:180:39:23

Proms director Roger Wright fears a backlash.

0:39:230:39:27

It is wonderful to have McAllister all McAllister as the conductor for

0:39:270:39:31

the last night. It seems such a -- to have Marin Alsop as the

0:39:310:39:35

conductor of the last night. It seems a natural development, she

0:39:350:39:39

was loved by the audience and a big hit with the Sao Paulo orchestra

0:39:390:39:43

last year, and then arriving at the extraordinary moment at the end of

0:39:440:39:48

the festival. She's going to be a perfect conductor for the last

0:39:480:39:52

night in terms of the confidence and the range of music that she

0:39:520:40:02
0:40:020:40:02

conducts so magnificently. Proms will include a selection of

0:40:020:40:08

themes from Doctor Who. Would you like a cup of tea! It was fantastic,

0:40:080:40:12

and I did it a couple of years ago and I had a great time and I did a

0:40:120:40:17

little sketch there as well. I love the Albert Hall, I love the Proms,

0:40:170:40:24

I love classical music. Prom-goers love the eccentric character who

0:40:240:40:32

seems to have arrived from outer space. And violinist Nigel Kennedy

0:40:320:40:42
0:40:420:40:47

will be there too. And the Proms have gone punk. The

0:40:470:40:51

Stranglers will be likely to be swatting away Union Jacks rather

0:40:510:40:57

than dry ice on one of the nights. Is it true, punk as respectable as

0:40:580:41:05

Brahms, Beethoven, Sir Mick Jagger. With Proms audiences and with

0:41:050:41:09

audiences in general now, they are much less used to putting music in

0:41:090:41:15

particular boxes. What it is about is a quality music experience. When

0:41:150:41:20

Jamie Cullumwas at the Proms and Soft Machine was at the Proms many

0:41:200:41:24

years ago, it is about developing an audience for quality music.

0:41:240:41:27

the story making the headlines tomorrow, and who knows making one

0:41:270:41:33

or two of you fill your Mont Blancs with green ink is Marin Alsop's

0:41:330:41:37

turn on the rostrum on the last night. Things need to change, say

0:41:370:41:43

some. In the institutions we don't have very many women who are

0:41:430:41:47

teachers, professors and so on. And I think if that changed, if the

0:41:470:41:54

balance changed a little bit there, then it may help to inspire women

0:41:540:42:04
0:42:040:42:04

composers. In the sex war Miss Alsop's turn on the podium souoints

0:42:040:42:14
0:42:140:42:19

counts as a kind of baton round. Points as a kind of baton round.

0:42:190:42:22

Marin Alsop joins me now from Baltimore. Congratulations, how did

0:42:220:42:29

it come about, the first woman in 118 years? Well that sound quite

0:42:290:42:32

daunting doesn't it. But I have had the great privilege of conducting

0:42:320:42:38

at the Proms when I was the chief conductor of the symphony. I

0:42:380:42:42

appeared twice with that great orchestra. And last summer with my

0:42:420:42:47

orchestra from Brazil, we had an incredible evening at the Proms. So

0:42:470:42:51

I think this was just a natural outgrowth of that. It is great news.

0:42:510:43:00

I don't know if you could hear Dame Evelyn Glenni reflecting the fact

0:43:000:43:05

there is so few women and Musical Directors of major orchestras. Why

0:43:050:43:09

is that? It is a matter of comfort level. As a society we don't see

0:43:090:43:16

women in these roles frequently enough. It is changing but it is a

0:43:160:43:19

slow change. It is up to us, the women that are in these positions

0:43:190:43:22

and the men in these positions to create more opportunities for

0:43:220:43:27

audiences and the public to see more women in these roles.

0:43:270:43:30

Particularly as conductor, I mean, you really have to have more

0:43:300:43:34

opportunities to give it a try. are talking to us from the great

0:43:340:43:40

city of Baltimore, which musically people might remember Francis Scott

0:43:400:43:45

Key, a couple of hundred years ago composed The National Anthem after

0:43:450:43:49

being shelled by the Britain. I hope you are not going to play

0:43:490:43:52

something American at the end of the Proms? I have a lot of ambition,

0:43:520:43:58

let's just say. Are you really looking forward to it, audiences

0:43:580:44:02

are terrific, but the last night is extraordinary? I can't tell you

0:44:020:44:06

what a thrill it is, I love working with the British musicians and the

0:44:060:44:11

audiences have been incredible. I really feel as though the UK has

0:44:110:44:14

been a second home to me. I felt that way since the moment I

0:44:140:44:18

conducted. I can't wait. Tell us a bit about outreach and how, we

0:44:180:44:23

heard a little bit there about how people put music less in boxing

0:44:230:44:29

than they used to. But you are also quite influenced by the Venezuelan

0:44:290:44:33

system of trying to get people in poorer areas where they might not

0:44:330:44:37

be interested in classical music to get involved. Tell us about that?

0:44:370:44:44

feel strongly as do so many of my colleagues that music and art

0:44:440:44:48

should be accessible to everyone human being and include everyone.

0:44:480:44:55

Part of the issue is enabling kids to play instruments and be part of

0:44:550:45:00

a musical ensemble from a very early age. So here in Baltimore we

0:45:000:45:06

started an afterschool programme called Or-Kids, we started with 25

0:45:060:45:11

kids five years ago and now we have 600 kid. As a matter of fact

0:45:110:45:16

tonight I have a Scottish precussionists, Colin Curry

0:45:160:45:25

performing with me and my kids are doing an encore with him after his

0:45:250:45:29

concerto, you will be well represented tonight. We will expect

0:45:290:45:31

Jerusalem and Land of Hope and Glory and all the favourites. What

0:45:310:45:35

else can we expect? Absolutely, but as you say I will bring a little

0:45:360:45:41

bit of America with me. Doing some music by Len nerd Bernstein, the

0:45:410:45:51
0:45:510:45:52

wonderful mezzo soprano Joyce will be appearing, and others, we have

0:45:520:45:56

Wagner and something for everybody, a great evening. Just a final

0:45:560:46:03

thought, is this a big deal for you? Yeah it is a big deal. I think

0:46:030:46:06

people in America don't quite get it, but I have spent enough time in

0:46:070:46:11

Britain and especially in London. I get it. Thank you very much for

0:46:110:46:16

talking to us. That's it for tonight, we wanted to

0:46:160:46:20

leave you with the news that the artist whose album covers plink

0:46:200:46:30
0:46:300:46:44

Floyd's the Dark Side of the Moon In a way artists are intul gent and

0:46:440:46:48

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