24/04/2013 Newsnight


24/04/2013

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Jeremy Paxman.


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Good evening, public health experts have decided that the outbreak of

:00:14.:00:19.

measles in Wales won't be contained there. Plans to vaccinate the

:00:19.:00:23.

unprotected are now expected across England. Can sufficient numbers be

:00:23.:00:27.

reached before the illness infects the vulnerable. It is probably of

:00:27.:00:30.

the order of a million to two million children who haven't had

:00:30.:00:37.

two doses of MMR vaccine which what is what you need for almost total

:00:37.:00:42.

protection. How do you persuade people who rejected advice at the

:00:42.:00:47.

time that they need to listen now. We all hoped he knew what he was

:00:47.:00:49.

doing, when so many are saying that George Osborne doesn't and he's

:00:49.:00:54.

making matters worse, should we listen to them? We will speak with

:00:54.:01:02.

the Nobel Prize winner, Joseph Spiglett. Put your eyes up and you

:01:02.:01:08.

have lines, this gets rid of them and prevents. Why shouldn't any Tom

:01:08.:01:11.

Dick or Harriet be able to inject whatever they like into the faces

:01:12.:01:18.

of those who think they need it. We will discuss why cosmetic surgery

:01:18.:01:22.

is so popular and so easy to get. The former MP, Louise Mensch, will

:01:22.:01:32.
:01:32.:01:34.

speak to us about why she has had treatment. Maybe the worst won't

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happen, but the Department of Health is preparing for it. A

:01:38.:01:42.

stockpile of vaccines has been gathered to offer protection

:01:42.:01:45.

against measles and a plan to vaccinate the vulnerable is being

:01:45.:01:50.

prepared against the moment when an outbreak in Swansea spreads.

:01:50.:01:53.

Experts have told Newsnight that the infection is likely to be

:01:53.:01:57.

carried across Britain. In England alone around a million children are

:01:57.:02:03.

thought to be unprotected. The NHS in Scotland said they will contact

:02:03.:02:08.

the vulnerable there. The disgraced doctor who caused the public health

:02:09.:02:12.

scare by encouraging parents not to get their children vaccinates is

:02:12.:02:15.

nowhere to be seen. But the damage is done, and now the challenge is

:02:15.:02:19.

to persuade people to do what they wrongly judged a few years ago to

:02:19.:02:25.

be dangerous for their children's health. In Wales this week

:02:25.:02:30.

secondary schools have started a catch-up campaign for teenagers to

:02:30.:02:36.

help contain the spread of measles. Almost 900 people have been

:02:36.:02:41.

infected in the Swansea outbreak, with 80 needing hospital treatment

:02:41.:02:46.

and one suspected death. In neighbouring Port Talbot teachers

:02:46.:02:50.

and pupils are coming forward. There has been a large outbreak in

:02:50.:02:54.

the nearby area, to be safe I thought I would get it. Figures

:02:54.:02:57.

here in Wales show it is the 10-14 age group that has the highest

:02:57.:03:01.

number of suspected cases of measles, which is why officials are

:03:01.:03:06.

so keen for this group to come forward for immunisation at catch-

:03:06.:03:10.

up clinics like this. Teenagers who didn't have the MMR vak zone when

:03:10.:03:14.

they were younger are proving most at risk. The catch-up campaign is

:03:14.:03:18.

not just to protect them, but vulnerable groups in the community,

:03:18.:03:25.

such as very young babies who have not yet been immunised, people with

:03:25.:03:31.

compromised immune systems, such as cancer patients. Yesterday the

:03:31.:03:35.

Government confirmed it has enough vaccine to cover those not yet

:03:35.:03:39.

protected. I want to reassure you we are taking this extremely

:03:39.:03:41.

seriously inside the Department of Health. We absolutely do want to

:03:41.:03:45.

make sure we do everything we can. If you are talking about a national

:03:45.:03:49.

plan, yes, making sure that we have sufficient numbers of vaccines,

:03:49.:03:53.

making sure that we are talking in a targeted way to communities and

:03:53.:03:58.

to schools, that is something that is absolutely going on. Experts

:03:58.:04:03.

have told Newsnight England and especially London cannot be

:04:03.:04:08.

complacent. The country as a whole is probably in the order of one

:04:08.:04:13.

million to two million children who haven't had two doses of MMR

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vaccine, which you need for total protection. London is a particular

:04:17.:04:21.

problem, there was lower uptake ten years ago. There will be pockets of

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very large pockets of susceptible children. The Government is

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preparing the nation to head off further outbreaks of measles, like

:04:30.:04:34.

the one we are seeing in Swansea. Public Health England will be

:04:34.:04:37.

responsible for making sure that runs smoothly. There is plenty of

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logistics to sort out, and perhaps their biggest challenge will be to

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change the mind set of some people about the vaccine itself.

:04:46.:04:51.

Experts trace the rise in cases to a fall in uptake of the MMR vaccine

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after a paper, published in 1998 in the medical journal the Lancet.

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This paper by Andrew Wakefield promptedst suggestions of a link

:05:03.:05:06.

between measles vaccine and bowel disease and autism, and concerns

:05:06.:05:12.

about the MMR jab. That has since been discredited. Population

:05:12.:05:20.

studies have found no link them. And the vaccine's benefits outweigh

:05:20.:05:25.

any risk. Before the current outbreak in Swansea vaccine uptake

:05:25.:05:31.

in two-year-olds was good at 95%, in older children there were 70,000

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youngsters across Wales who still needed the vaccine. Attention is

:05:34.:05:38.

now turning to areas of England at risk. London is of particular

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concern. Average uptake of the two doses of MMR across England is at

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86%. In parts of London it is much lower. Some former Primary Care

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Trusts, such as Lewisham, Camden, City and Hackney and Southwark were

:05:55.:06:01.

at the 70% mark last year. What I have discovered is it is very hard,

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it is a challenge to change beliefs. To get away the mind set that the

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MMR might not be safe. To engage parents again who actually had a

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different view of it when their children were little. The younger

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parpbts don't have that fear. -- parents don't have that fee, we can

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see that, because the uptake is 90% and00% in the Swansea area. They

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are not worried about it but the older parents are. We have to

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change the belief and recognise that the MMR is safe. This former

:06:30.:06:35.

Welsh rugby prop forward, now a PE teacher, knows firsthand about the

:06:35.:06:38.

potential impact of measles. When I was younger I had measles in

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primary school, and I went deaf through it in my right ear. Now

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working in the school environment it was advised to have the

:06:46.:06:51.

injection just to better be safe than sorry and not having constant

:06:52.:06:56.

contact with the children. Harvey had the single measles

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vaccination as a toddler, because her mother was concerned after The

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Awakening paper, now she has changed her mind. When Amy was

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little we decided to pay for the single measles vaccination because

:07:08.:07:12.

of the scare around autism at the time. We have decided to go for the

:07:12.:07:16.

MMR now because there were some concerns about how the single

:07:16.:07:19.

measles vaccination was kept. So to make sure that she is covered for

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measles we wanted to have the MMR But the BBC's Week In Week Out has

:07:27.:07:31.

been investigating clinics in Wales and elsewhere selling single

:07:31.:07:36.

measles vaccines, which they claim are safer. Officials are reminding

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parents that their strong view is the combined MMR vaccine is the

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safest option. Chloe is here for the second MMR? GPs in Wales are

:07:45.:07:52.

helping with the catch-up too, here in Caerphilly, 40 miles east of

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Swansea people travel into the city to work. People do nowadays think

:07:55.:07:59.

of measles as one of those childhood viral illnesses that will

:07:59.:08:06.

pass quickly. I think we have to remember that measles is a killer

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and it is only in recent years with vaccination and MMR that we are

:08:10.:08:14.

avoiding childhood deaths. Do you think it almost take as situation

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like this to raise people's awareness? I think we almost had to

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get to where we are at for all of us, for parents, for schools, for

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health services to kind of think you know there is a wrong here that

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needs to be addressed. There is a population of children who are

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moving through our schools and some how, despite all the work, they are

:08:34.:08:39.

still not protected against measles, mumps and rubella. And we have an

:08:39.:08:44.

opportunity now to protect them in school for life. Past measles

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campaigns have tried to reach out to target groups. Today's challenge

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is to reach a generation of teenagers and their parents,

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especially those who may still be harbouring lingering doubts.

:09:00.:09:07.

We have a Trinity of doctors here to discuss some of those issues, Dr

:09:07.:09:13.

Helen Bedford, an expert in childhood immunisation, we have a

:09:13.:09:19.

GP and chair of the council of the Royal College of GPs, and a

:09:19.:09:23.

physician, academic and science writer. How much of a danger is

:09:23.:09:26.

this objectively? I think it is potentially a big danger. There is

:09:26.:09:31.

a large, very large group of susceptible children. These are

:09:31.:09:35.

children who are entering their teens who weren't immunised when

:09:35.:09:39.

toddlers, ten years ago. If it is a serious danger, the key group you

:09:39.:09:43.

have to convince that they should do something are the very people

:09:43.:09:48.

who decided they shouldn't do something when these young people,

:09:48.:09:53.

teenagers, were infants. How do you do that? The first thing, I think,

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we say it is a great shame isn't it that we nearly eradicated measles

:09:58.:10:03.

at the end of the 90s and here we are on the cusp yet again of an

:10:03.:10:07.

increase in cases. I think the people that didn't have it then,

:10:07.:10:10.

the parents clearly now, hopeful low, will be seeing that there is

:10:10.:10:17.

no evidence at all that MMR is dangerous. MMR is safe and MMR

:10:17.:10:20.

protects your children against measles, mumps and rubella.

:10:20.:10:25.

Hopefully they will be conadvised. The good thing is we know who --

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convinced. The good thing is we know who those children are, we

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have an electronic record and we can do a catch-up programme in

:10:33.:10:37.

Wales. It is not just about persuading the young person but the

:10:37.:10:42.

parents that it is a very, very safe and effective and as hisen

:10:42.:10:47.

said, measles is a nasty De-- Helen has said, measles is a nasty

:10:47.:10:53.

Disease, and if it doesn't kill you great, but it is a nasty Disease

:10:53.:10:57.

and leaves you very unwell. What experience should we draw from

:10:57.:11:02.

this? It is always very difficult to fix these problems after they

:11:02.:11:06.

have happened. With a healthcare they are like toothpaste once they

:11:06.:11:10.

are out it is hard to get the toothpaste back in the tube. We

:11:10.:11:15.

have learned firstly that Public Health and the professions have to

:11:15.:11:19.

be better at challenging misinformation from the media and

:11:19.:11:23.

also mischievous doctors, in the case of Andrew Wakefield and his

:11:23.:11:27.

research. I think to an extend we have learned those lessons, if you

:11:27.:11:36.

go to the NHS website and look at the news which checks the real

:11:37.:11:41.

story behind media reports of medicine. We have science helping

:11:41.:11:45.

to grow the reputation within newsrooms so they feel empowered to

:11:45.:11:48.

shut bad stories down. That doesn't make you popular, because you want

:11:48.:11:51.

to be the person with the exciting story rather than the person who

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shuts it down. We have to think about how to stop scares going in

:11:55.:12:00.

the future as well as making amends in the current one. Do you think

:12:00.:12:04.

there is a crisis of confidence in doctors, along with many other

:12:04.:12:09.

institutions in society that you are not trusted as much? I think

:12:09.:12:11.

individual parents trust their individual GP. That is evidenced by

:12:11.:12:18.

the fact that 93% of two-year-olds are immunised he against MMR.

:12:18.:12:21.

aren't? Some of those will be simply because they have poor

:12:21.:12:26.

access to services. Some may well be abroad. Ever since I have been a

:12:26.:12:30.

GP there are always people who will never get their children immunised

:12:30.:12:35.

T usually runs at 5%. People do trust their GPs, it is important

:12:35.:12:38.

that we continue with that trust and that we are honest to our

:12:38.:12:42.

patients and talk to them about the risks of not doing something.

:12:42.:12:46.

a degree of scepticism justified though. When you look at the sort

:12:46.:12:51.

of health scares we have lived through in the last 10-15 years,

:12:51.:12:58.

bird flu, Sars. I'm not sure they were health scares, they were

:12:58.:13:01.

dreadful times when you didn't know where it was going to end. We have

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lived through health scares, we have lived through mumps and

:13:05.:13:11.

electric lightbulbs and everything else. The doctors cried wolf?I

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think with bird flu and with Sars they certainly didn't cry wolf. We

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only knew in retrospect that bad things didn't happen. That is

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because the Department of Health and the Government took action very

:13:22.:13:26.

promptly. It is actually I think unfair to say we cried wolf. I

:13:26.:13:30.

think there are every Friday, in the news there is the healthcare.

:13:30.:13:34.

At the moment we have alcohol in pregnancy, is it or isn't it. All

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the time we have this. But the authorities, I recall is it

:13:38.:13:44.

something like 15 million doses of bird flu vaccine. It was just a

:13:44.:13:51.

huge reaction to a, what turned out to be a non-event? It is easy to

:13:51.:13:55.

say that in retrospect. I think it is likely we dodged a bullet. I

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think it is the other way round, the Public Health community has

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been reluctant to use scare tactics to get people to have their

:14:03.:14:08.

children vaccinated. That is the right way to play it, I think. They

:14:08.:14:11.

are fighting against an anti- vaccination community around since

:14:11.:14:16.

the dawn of time. They are using scare tactics now, saying get the

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MMR vaccine because measles is a horrible illness? That is quite

:14:20.:14:24.

right, measles is very nasty. Part of the problem is when this scare

:14:24.:14:29.

erupted we had forgotten about measles. We hadn't had measles for

:14:29.:14:33.

decades, it was well controlled. This outbreak in Swansea is a stark

:14:33.:14:37.

reminder of just how serious the disease is. If Claire is right, did

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you say 5% always? Always.How do you get to the people who have not

:14:42.:14:45.

had the shot? We need to make services accessible so people can

:14:45.:14:49.

get to them. We need to remind parents, because a lot of it is

:14:49.:14:53.

just the parents forget, they need to go and get the vaccine. For

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parents that are really, truly worried what they need is to have a

:14:57.:15:03.

discussion with a health adviser who can set their concerns and

:15:03.:15:08.

allay their fears. Why doesn't the country make it compulsory to have

:15:08.:15:11.

certain vaccinations? Because we do very well without. Not well enough?

:15:11.:15:17.

We do extremely well, we have very high rates. If we had compulsion

:15:17.:15:20.

ten years ago, the resistant parents would have become more

:15:20.:15:26.

resistant. That wouldn't have been the answer at all. You create

:15:26.:15:36.
:15:36.:15:38.

martyrs. You create martyrsThere There have been resistant people

:15:38.:15:44.

since the 1800s. There have always been stupid people about? We are

:15:44.:15:49.

still reaching 80%, to force parents would backfire. We have to

:15:49.:15:52.

use reason and the discussion with people they trust. And we have to

:15:52.:16:00.

use campaigns such as the one we have at the moment. Either it is a

:16:00.:16:05.

serious menace or it is not, if it is, why not make immunisation

:16:05.:16:08.

compulsory? If it is a serious menace the media could reflect on

:16:09.:16:12.

their part they have played on it. The constant campaigns that are

:16:12.:16:17.

being run around MMR, certainly not in the last two years, but before

:16:17.:16:20.

that, maybe it is a question of all of us reflecting on this.

:16:20.:16:24.

Absolutely, there are many of us in the media who are deeply

:16:24.:16:28.

embarrassed about what some newspapers and others did in this

:16:28.:16:32.

particular issue. But that has nothing to do with the question of

:16:32.:16:36.

the law? I don't know whether Helen will point out that it is nothing

:16:36.:16:40.

to do with the law, the fact is we managed to achieve, in some places

:16:40.:16:45.

we still do. 100% immunisation rates. We can continue to do that.

:16:45.:16:49.

We don't need to force people to get their children immunised.

:16:49.:16:52.

happens if this new campaign doesn't work? I think what we have

:16:52.:16:57.

to do is talk to parents who may have lingering doubt, one-to-one,

:16:57.:17:02.

that does work from my own experience and backed by research,

:17:02.:17:07.

that parents who in the past have rejected the vaccine actually do

:17:07.:17:13.

change their mind if they have reassurance from somebody they

:17:13.:17:17.

trust. It is an easier job than ten years a the peak of the scare has

:17:17.:17:24.

passed. People are more ameanable to persuasion. We have to remember

:17:24.:17:29.

that vaccine scares come in cycles. The French have a scare about

:17:29.:17:31.

hepatitis B vaccine causing multiple sclerosis that doesn't

:17:32.:17:35.

leave the borders of France. We have our scare about MMR, in

:17:35.:17:41.

Nigeria there is a scare about polio and infertility. We will have

:17:41.:17:44.

future scares so we need to plan for the future. It is very

:17:44.:17:52.

interesting that they are specific to different cultures? Undoubtedly.

:17:52.:17:56.

They respect cultural boundaries because they are social, cultural

:17:56.:18:01.

and political boundaries. Still to come, why do so many

:18:01.:18:04.

people want cosmetic surgery, we ask Louise Mensch and others about

:18:04.:18:13.

their experiences. If George Osborne hasn't at least

:18:14.:18:17.

poured himself a stiff whiskey tonight and got his hands on decent

:18:17.:18:22.

sleeping pills, then he must know something the rest of us don't know,

:18:22.:18:24.

tomorrow morning will come yet another verdict on how he's

:18:24.:18:27.

managing the economy. If it is anything like the last couple it

:18:27.:18:31.

will be miserable. It might even show we are back in recession again.

:18:31.:18:37.

Not only have we lost the triple-A status George Osborne used to boast

:18:37.:18:40.

about, even his friends in the International Monetary Fund think

:18:40.:18:48.

he should lay off the austerity. At a foodbank in Salisbury today is

:18:48.:18:53.

a milestone, the number reliant on these places has tripled, in a year.

:18:53.:18:57.

They don't just give out food, but advice, and these are becoming

:18:57.:19:01.

places for the working poor. They know what it is like to have a job,

:19:01.:19:05.

get sick and find that sick pay is not enough.

:19:05.:19:09.

Very hard, it is not something that I'm used to. I normally have money

:19:09.:19:19.

in the pocket, at the moment we don't have any. Hopefully, now I'm

:19:19.:19:23.

back at work it is fine. If it wasn't for the foodbank, we

:19:23.:19:29.

wouldn't have eaten over the last couple of weeks. It is just another

:19:29.:19:32.

day on the economic crisis, tomorrow won't be, tomorrow George

:19:32.:19:39.

Osborne finds out if he's escaped a triple-dip recession. Even if he

:19:39.:19:44.

does growth is slow and the deficit falling slower than intended. He

:19:44.:19:49.

has lost the triple-A rating, even now the IMF are telling him to ease

:19:49.:19:52.

up on Austerty. Those who told him austerity wouldn't work are feeling,

:19:52.:19:57.

well, right. Some of the weakness of UK growth is down to the UK

:19:57.:20:01.

Government policy S some of it isn't. The fact that real wages are

:20:01.:20:04.

being squeezed, very high inflation, next to no pay growth, that is a

:20:04.:20:08.

very important factor keeping the UK economy subdued. Over and above

:20:08.:20:13.

that you have the UK Government tightening fiscal policy, trying to

:20:13.:20:19.

get the borrowing totals down. And at the time of a flat economy that

:20:19.:20:23.

tends not to succeed. What you are seeing is borrowing staying at the

:20:23.:20:28.

same levels, as the grip tightens on people's finances they spend

:20:28.:20:33.

less. We are learning to recognise what stagnant economy looks like.

:20:33.:20:40.

In Wiltshire the signs are there, shops closed, old stores prettyfied

:20:40.:20:46.

with council hoardings. Stall holders struggling to stay afloat.

:20:46.:20:49.

You have a few good days and the rest are bad, before it was the odd

:20:49.:20:57.

bad day and lot of good days. It is reversed. People that buy dolls'

:20:57.:21:01.

house furniture are enthusiasts. It is their way of I suppose hiding

:21:01.:21:06.

away from reality. It is a fantasy world. So you know some of them are

:21:06.:21:12.

quite happy to spend money doing that rather than buying essentials.

:21:12.:21:16.

But for policy makers there is no hiding from reality, and where it

:21:16.:21:21.

is starkest is in the banks. One of the most telling clues is this. The

:21:21.:21:26.

graph of bank lending to businesses. Since 2009 it has been negative,

:21:26.:21:29.

falling �4 billion a month back then, and falling in every year the

:21:29.:21:35.

coalition has been in office, the banks withdrew �2.8 billion of

:21:35.:21:38.

lending to businesses in February this year alone. In Salisbury

:21:38.:21:43.

businesses are putting a brave face on it. This event today designed to

:21:43.:21:49.

accentuate the positive, amid a credit drought not experienced in a

:21:49.:21:54.

lifetime. The banks aren't very helpful with small business, I'm

:21:54.:21:58.

afraid. A loans agreed terms take so much time to put in place you

:21:58.:22:05.

need to find other ways of securing finance. I have remortgaged

:22:05.:22:08.

properties et cetera to release cashflow to get me through the

:22:08.:22:11.

difficult times. It would clearly be helpful for all the chambers of

:22:11.:22:14.

commerce and other organisations to have a brief from Government saying

:22:14.:22:19.

this is what we would like you guys to do. This is what's round the

:22:19.:22:23.

corner, it is a danger it is made up on the hoof as we go along. It

:22:23.:22:27.

would be brilliant to know the strategy and we could buy into it.

:22:27.:22:31.

It is trying to do austerity when the banks are busted that the

:22:31.:22:35.

critics warned about. The crisis with regards to the banking system

:22:35.:22:38.

is absolutely profound. And nobody should underestimate the

:22:38.:22:41.

difficulties the Government faces in trying to overcome this problem.

:22:41.:22:45.

Having said that, they have not been as radical as they might have

:22:45.:22:50.

been with regards to tackling the banking problem. If you really

:22:50.:22:53.

think that an essential difficulty here is the broken banking system

:22:53.:22:57.

then I would have imagined they would adopt radical measure.

:22:57.:23:01.

truth is there is a global retreat from austerity going on, in Europe

:23:01.:23:05.

the economy isle cooling faster than expected. The appetite for

:23:05.:23:10.

cuts has diminished there. Even the academic case for austerity took a

:23:10.:23:15.

knock this month when a famous study was debunked. So the pressure

:23:15.:23:19.

on George Osborne is rising. The Chancellor has a plan to flood the

:23:19.:23:24.

housing market with cheaper loans and extend the Funding for Lending

:23:24.:23:28.

Scheme, where the Bank of England underwrites bank lending to

:23:29.:23:33.

businesses. If this plan fails, it is the free food economy that will

:23:33.:23:38.

be forced to grow. At the Salisbury foodbank they have stock for way

:23:38.:23:42.

into the future. Unless something changes they will need it.

:23:42.:23:48.

Joining us now from the Columbia Business School is the Nobel Prize-

:23:48.:23:54.

winning economist is Joseph Stiglett and my guest in the studio.

:23:54.:23:57.

If you were advising George Osborne tomorrow morning, what would you

:23:58.:24:05.

say to him? I would say to him that austerity has typically not worked.

:24:06.:24:10.

The few instances in which austerity has worked or not been a

:24:10.:24:14.

disaster have been instances where the hole in Government spending has

:24:14.:24:20.

been filled by increased exports. But with the global slowdown, with

:24:20.:24:24.

the weaknesses in Europe that will not happen. Clearly it wasn't going

:24:24.:24:29.

to happen in 20009/0/11 after he started the programme. If economic

:24:29.:24:36.

growth slows down, then the hope for benefits in terms of improved

:24:36.:24:39.

fiscal position turns out to be disappointed. That is exactly what

:24:39.:24:47.

we have seen. Let's bring in the studio. This is not a lone voice on

:24:47.:24:50.

this. One is hearing this advice, even from people who used to

:24:50.:24:53.

believe in what George Osborne was doing? Economists wouldn't be

:24:53.:24:58.

economists if we didn't disagree. But we do have an example from

:24:58.:25:02.

Britain where austerity worked. If you remember back in the early

:25:02.:25:07.

1980s when there was a very deep recession. 364 economists called

:25:07.:25:11.

upon the Government to reverse policy, the Government didn't, but

:25:11.:25:15.

the economy recovered and it recovered strongly. Because the

:25:15.:25:18.

essence of any successful economic recovery is not what the Government

:25:18.:25:23.

does, it is what business does. It is about business confidence. It is

:25:23.:25:31.

about psychology. This is what Cains wrote about, he talked about

:25:31.:25:34.

spontaneous optimisim, animal spirits, this should be the prime

:25:34.:25:38.

concern of a Government policy. What we have is spontaneous alarm

:25:38.:25:43.

that the policy isn't working? Mainstream economists in my view

:25:43.:25:46.

pay insufficient attention to psychology. We have to look at

:25:46.:25:49.

economies in Europe where psychology has turned negative. We

:25:49.:25:59.
:25:59.:26:00.

look at Italy, Spain, Greece and business confidence has collapsed.

:26:00.:26:03.

In fact there is a good reason why it collapsed. There is a widespread

:26:03.:26:09.

understanding of the basic economics. As I said, you can find

:26:09.:26:12.

instances where there were cutbacks in Government spending and the

:26:12.:26:17.

economy didn't go into a tail spin, when and only when the gap is

:26:17.:26:22.

picked up by experts. It is not going to happen now. I think the

:26:22.:26:26.

business community is realistic, it understands what is going on. There

:26:26.:26:34.

is not going to be any spontaneous burst of an animal spirit to get

:26:34.:26:38.

you out of this. How much of a stimulus would the Chancellor of

:26:38.:26:41.

the Exchequer have to apply to the economy and where exactly would he

:26:41.:26:48.

find it? One of the points that you are discussing before I came on and

:26:48.:26:51.

it emphasised, that what is going on right now in the UK and many the

:26:51.:26:55.

other countries in Europe is not only a fiscal austerity but a

:26:55.:26:58.

construction of the financial system with the banking system. It

:26:58.:27:04.

is these two together which are really disastrous. One of the

:27:04.:27:07.

things the Government ought to be doing is taking more active

:27:07.:27:13.

measures to increase lending. It has the position and ability to do

:27:13.:27:16.

that because it is the owner of some of the financial institutions.

:27:16.:27:21.

That is to say it has a very large share in the ownership. Both in the

:27:21.:27:24.

United States and the UK, and many other countries, Governments, even

:27:24.:27:28.

when they were very active and providing money to the banking

:27:28.:27:33.

system have been reluctant to exercise their role as owner.

:27:33.:27:37.

know perfectly well they have been trying to do that for years now,

:27:37.:27:41.

they haven't had much success? think the real risk of altering

:27:41.:27:46.

policy is really on interest rates, how the markets judge this. George

:27:46.:27:50.

Osborne has had bad news, but the good news is the British Government

:27:50.:27:55.

can still borrow cheaply. Despite the fact it has lost its triple-A

:27:55.:27:59.

record. Long-dated bonds issue by the British Government can still be

:27:59.:28:04.

issued at around 2%. If there is a fiscal expansion and the markets

:28:04.:28:09.

lose confidence then interest rates will rise to 4-5%, or up to 8%

:28:09.:28:13.

which we have seen in some of the Mediterranean countries. That would

:28:13.:28:17.

have a devastating impact on business confidence. I think Joe

:28:17.:28:22.

would have to agree, we don't know the correct answer but there are

:28:22.:28:27.

very real risks in abandoning this policy of restraint and austerity.

:28:27.:28:30.

There is a fundamental difference between the Mediterranean countries,

:28:30.:28:34.

where they joined the euro, they have lost control of their monetary

:28:34.:28:38.

system, and the United States and the UK where they still control

:28:38.:28:43.

their monetary system. The fact is in both the United States and the

:28:43.:28:47.

UK monetary policy has been active and successful in keeping interest

:28:47.:28:53.

rates down. Both the short-term and the long-term. They have the

:28:53.:28:56.

ability to intervene and continue to intervene to keep interest rates

:28:56.:29:04.

low. Do you think we worry too much about debt? Yes, I do. I don't

:29:04.:29:09.

think you can completely ignore it, but I certainly think in the United

:29:09.:29:15.

States markets have made it very clear that they are not worried. We

:29:15.:29:22.

have inflation index bonds, we look at the difference between unindexed

:29:22.:29:26.

bonds and indexed bonds. We can see with the market expectation of

:29:26.:29:29.

inflation is very, very low. The United States in real terms is

:29:29.:29:35.

borrowing at a negative rate. ask in the studio thoughts about

:29:35.:29:39.

that? I think it is slightly irresponseable to say we shouldn't

:29:39.:29:44.

worry about debt at all. There should be restrictions on what the

:29:44.:29:49.

Government do. The whole financial crisis is about sectors getting far

:29:49.:29:54.

too indebted. If I can mention America, the American economy has

:29:54.:29:57.

indeed recovered, but there have been contractions in the public

:29:57.:30:02.

sector. Since 2010 half a million public sector jobs have been cut in

:30:02.:30:07.

America and the gap has been filled by the private sector. By response

:30:07.:30:15.

tain us optimism. So it has -- spontaneous optimisim so it has

:30:15.:30:20.

been with fiscal restraint. United States has very serious

:30:20.:30:23.

unemployment and record low participation rate in the labour

:30:23.:30:28.

force. Nobody looking at the American policy today would say we

:30:28.:30:32.

are recovered. Thank you very much indeed. If you have ever aspired to

:30:32.:30:37.

one of those pouting expressionless faces, favoured by reality

:30:37.:30:40.

television performers and increasing numbers of news readers

:30:40.:30:45.

help may be at hand, right now. Cosmetic surgery in Britain is

:30:45.:30:52.

about as tightly regulated as a Millwall fan's temper. Even a news

:30:52.:30:57.

right researcher is able to inject anything into anyone. After

:30:57.:31:00.

suggestions today those in the business are more interested money

:31:00.:31:03.

than medicine the Government proposes to regulate the activity.

:31:03.:31:08.

As the law currently stands you could have a Botox party at your

:31:08.:31:12.

house, invite me around and inject filler into my face, and presumably

:31:12.:31:17.

do a terrible job of it. Whilst that would all be very bizarre, it

:31:17.:31:20.

would be perfectly legal. Its that lack of regulation of the cosmetic

:31:20.:31:25.

industry that has shocked the authors of this report. They are

:31:25.:31:29.

worried that non-surgical pro procedures have become so every-day

:31:29.:31:34.

that people doesn't understand the risks. For this they blame TV shows

:31:34.:31:43.

such as The Only Way Is Essex. are going to a Botox party. What is

:31:43.:31:48.

that? It is injections to paralyse the nerve so you can't frown.

:31:48.:31:53.

would you want that? You don't get lines. So you are paralysed.

:31:53.:31:58.

your eyebrows up, you have two lines, this gets rid of them and

:31:58.:32:04.

prevents. So by now I should have probably four lines. Why, because

:32:04.:32:11.

you have that done you don't have it? No because I can't move my head.

:32:11.:32:16.

The producers of TOWIE say they never seek to glamorise plastic

:32:16.:32:20.

surgery and have highlighted the dangers. Nevertheless there is

:32:20.:32:22.

concern about the impact that celebrity culture could be having

:32:22.:32:27.

on the young. The report quotes a survey carried out last year and in

:32:27.:32:34.

that poll 41% of girls aged 7-10 and 62% of girls aged 11-16 said

:32:34.:32:37.

they felt some pressure to look the way celebrities do. What is clear

:32:37.:32:44.

is even when the economy is tanking this industry is booming. Brits

:32:44.:32:48.

spent �2.3 billion on procedures like Botox and breast implants in

:32:48.:32:54.

2010. In two years time they are expecting to spend �3.6 billion. So,

:32:54.:32:59.

what this report is recommending is that the Government makes sure that

:32:59.:33:03.

anyone carrying out cosmetic procedures is registered, qualified

:33:03.:33:07.

and insured. They want products such as facial fillers to be

:33:07.:33:10.

prescription-only, they want the remit of the parliamentary and

:33:10.:33:14.

health ombudsman to be expanded so it covers private healthcare. Well

:33:14.:33:18.

earlier today, in order to test just how easy it is to get hold of

:33:18.:33:22.

facial fillers, we called several cosmetic surgeries and beauty

:33:22.:33:25.

saloons across the country, all of them said we could make an

:33:26.:33:29.

appointment immediately. For a consultation with a doctor or nurse

:33:29.:33:33.

who could give us the fillers, and for as little as �175. We ask

:33:34.:33:38.

should we seek advice from a GP first, several told us that wasn't

:33:38.:33:43.

necessary. Dr Rosemary Leonard is a GP who sat on the Government

:33:44.:33:48.

commission which produced today's recommendations. Kat Banyard is a

:33:48.:33:52.

feminist author who has campaigned for an end to cosmetic surgery

:33:52.:33:56.

advertising. Alicia Douvall is a former glamour model who spent more

:33:56.:34:02.

than a million pound she said on at least 500 plastic surgery

:34:02.:34:06.

procedures before realiseing she was addicted to the business and

:34:06.:34:10.

taking herself off to rehab. And Louise Mensch is a former

:34:10.:34:14.

Conservative MP who has also had plastic surgery and joining us

:34:14.:34:17.

tonight from New York. Louise Mensch, what did you have done?

:34:17.:34:26.

had had a little tighten in my face, I remember being asked about it by

:34:26.:34:32.

the Guardian, and asking me had I had it because I had a scar under

:34:32.:34:37.

my chin. I refused to answer it because people are always trying to

:34:38.:34:45.

trivialise women's -- women in politics, but as I'm no longer a

:34:45.:34:52.

politician and I want to support this report. Why did you do it?

:34:52.:34:57.

was fully aware of the risks and reLuiz Eduardos and I knew what I

:34:57.:35:02.

was doing. And when they asked had I had a face lift they ran pictures

:35:02.:35:05.

pre-procedure and they couldn't tell the difference. It can be an

:35:05.:35:09.

informed choice for many women. There are certainly great dangers,

:35:09.:35:13.

I don't believe anybody who isn't a doctor or at the very least a nurse,

:35:13.:35:17.

I would prefer a doctor, be able to carry out any of these procedure,

:35:17.:35:21.

even the surgeons should have train anything that specific area.

:35:21.:35:25.

still don't understand why you had it done? As I have said for

:35:25.:35:29.

maintenance. I'm, I like the way I look, I would prefer to keep it

:35:29.:35:34.

that way. I had a very, very good surgeon, the difference is subtle

:35:34.:35:39.

if you get someone who knows what they are doing. I'm relatively

:35:39.:35:44.

happy, I'm very happy with the results. Alicia Douvall you had an

:35:44.:35:49.

awful lot of operations of one kind or another, why did you have them?

:35:49.:35:57.

I started off when I was 17 when I had my first procedure. I was very

:35:57.:36:01.

niave and believed that cosmetic surgery was the answer to changing

:36:01.:36:06.

from an average-looking girl to this Barbie-looking appearance. I

:36:06.:36:12.

didn't understand the limitations that surgery has. I wasn't informed,

:36:12.:36:16.

I wasn't an intelligent lady that was able to do my research and

:36:16.:36:21.

everything else. I unfortunately was in the hand of special offers

:36:21.:36:29.

and the "cowboy" surgeries out there. Was price a factor in your

:36:29.:36:33.

decision? Yes, after my first operation I had a special offer if

:36:33.:36:38.

you booked more than one you got the second one cheaper.

:36:38.:36:44.

Subsequently I had to have more surgery after that to correct it.

:36:44.:36:49.

Do you, as a feminist are you troubled that so many women want

:36:49.:36:54.

this sort of procedure? troubled that the cosmetic surgery

:36:54.:36:58.

industry has been able to flourish unrestricted and unaccountable in

:36:58.:37:03.

the way it has. The reasons we are talking about this is women and

:37:03.:37:08.

girls from a very young age are subject to a highly sexist culture

:37:08.:37:13.

that tells them their value lies in what they look like, not what they.

:37:13.:37:18.

Do the cosmetic industry spent the last few decades spending millions

:37:18.:37:22.

of pounds marketing itself as the solution to this. You don't think

:37:22.:37:25.

that a successful, confident woman like Mensch MEPs, member of

:37:25.:37:28.

parliament, is really that influenced by sexist assumptions in

:37:28.:37:32.

society do you? There are various differences obviously between no

:37:32.:37:36.

individual woman will have exactly the same experience and same

:37:36.:37:41.

motivations. But we know that by the age of 10, a third of girls say

:37:41.:37:45.

that the biggest worry is their body. And it is therefore no

:37:45.:37:49.

surprise that the same proportion of girls would consider havings

:37:49.:37:53.

could mtic surgery. This is an industry -- cosmetic surgery. This

:37:53.:37:57.

is an industry that has spent millions telling people, by

:37:57.:38:02.

spaceing adverts on public transport, in magazine -- placing

:38:02.:38:06.

adverts in public transport and magazines that it is the solution

:38:06.:38:11.

by going under the knife. Not changing the culture and tell women

:38:11.:38:18.

they have to aspire to ideals. you feel under pressure? Not at all.

:38:18.:38:22.

That isn't to say that I don't entirely agree with the thrust of

:38:22.:38:25.

the report. I can't see you in the studio, it is disheartening to hear

:38:25.:38:31.

the young lady, the model to say at 17 she felt pressurised to have

:38:31.:38:35.

procedures again and again and again. We need this tightening up.

:38:35.:38:39.

A respectable surgery will not offer a procedure to a woman who

:38:39.:38:43.

has body image problems and has done it millions of times and

:38:44.:38:47.

appears to be addicted. That is why I'm glad we have someone in the

:38:47.:38:51.

health office who is a doctor and we need to look at this. There have

:38:51.:38:55.

been problems, but also it had been a sovereign decision that a woman

:38:55.:38:58.

makes about her own appearance. If informed it can be a good choice.

:38:58.:39:02.

Here you are, let's be realistic about it, you are a highly

:39:03.:39:06.

successful, highly intelligent woman who achieved power? Keep

:39:06.:39:12.

going! And yet you choose to do this to your body. Are you worried

:39:12.:39:16.

about what example you will set? Again the question arose because a

:39:16.:39:21.

reporter at an ostensibly left-wing and feminist pap, in the middle of

:39:21.:39:27.

a political profile depieded to ask me had I had something done to my

:39:27.:39:30.

face which is entirely my own decision and not something I was

:39:30.:39:33.

writing about. I think the publicity was thrust upon me, it

:39:33.:39:37.

wasn't something I was forcing on anybody. The desire to look good is

:39:37.:39:43.

not in of itself negative. But look good to whom? It doesn't all come

:39:43.:39:47.

from plastic surgery. I find it interesting you focus so heavily on

:39:47.:39:51.

the individual woman's motivations for getting cosmetic surgery, let's

:39:51.:39:55.

be clear the lived experience from girls at an early age is their body

:39:55.:39:59.

is held up as the post important thing about them. The ideals thrust

:39:59.:40:04.

upon them through popular culture, through advertising are huge. And

:40:04.:40:09.

body hatred among women is rampant. It is no surprise that so many

:40:09.:40:12.

women want cosmetic surgery, the reason the review is important is

:40:12.:40:18.

because it puts the spotlight on the industry for once, not on the

:40:18.:40:20.

individual's choices. Were you shocked by what you found? Yes, the

:40:20.:40:25.

pen you hold in your hand has the same controls as a cosmetic filler.

:40:25.:40:29.

Interestingly in America where they are ahead of the game on us they

:40:29.:40:36.

have made fillers prescription-only medicines. There are only a few

:40:36.:40:40.

teens, 14, 15 available. In this country we have 190 available

:40:40.:40:44.

because they are not subject to any more controls than floor cleaner.

:40:44.:40:48.

filler is injected into you? It is injected into your face to plump it

:40:48.:40:53.

up. When people say what's in them, the answer is at the moment is an

:40:54.:40:57.

awful lot of things could be in them. Did you know what was being

:40:57.:41:02.

put into your face? No not at all. I have countless amounts of filler.

:41:02.:41:08.

I have had it also removed. I have got scaring from trying to get it

:41:08.:41:12.

out. It is very difficult to remove it once it is in. They have told me

:41:13.:41:20.

it is not permanent. How can you let somebody who is not medically

:41:20.:41:23.

qualified stick something into your body? I trust a doctor and the

:41:23.:41:27.

surgeon in front of me. He's telling me it will be dissolved

:41:27.:41:31.

within six month it is great, it will be great for my face. This is

:41:31.:41:34.

the story we have heard time and time again, the British public

:41:34.:41:38.

assumed the industry is controlled. They assumed the practitioners know

:41:38.:41:43.

what they are doing. Did you discover why it isn't controlled?

:41:43.:41:46.

It is not my job to point the finger. It isn't helpful now, we

:41:46.:41:50.

need to control it for now. It has to be said, in fairness to the

:41:50.:41:53.

Government this is an industry that has exploded over the last few

:41:53.:41:58.

years. It has gone up exponentially, probably ten years ago there wasn't

:41:58.:42:01.

that much to control, there certainly is now. We need to get on

:42:01.:42:06.

with it as quickly as possible. have to say I don't accept that

:42:06.:42:10.

there simply hasn't been efforts to, or desire to control it, there have

:42:10.:42:15.

been repeated calls for a clampdown on this exploitive industry which

:42:15.:42:18.

have been batted away with assurances that the industry can

:42:18.:42:20.

govern itself. It is brilliant that these recommendations have been

:42:20.:42:25.

made. I will set up an open goal for you, do you think it was

:42:25.:42:29.

regulated if it was a process that was seen applying mainly to men?

:42:30.:42:33.

Interesting question, it is difficult to draw an exact on

:42:33.:42:37.

collision from this, but it is an important point. Issues that mainly

:42:37.:42:40.

affect women, it is no surprise that when we get more women in

:42:40.:42:45.

parliament those kinds of issues are addressed. Issues such as body

:42:45.:42:50.

image is left off the political agenda and it affects so many

:42:50.:42:54.

women's lives. We are talking about this as if it is women only,

:42:54.:42:57.

increase league there are more and more men who are going to the

:42:57.:43:04.

cosmetic industry now. It is not just a feminine issue. It is across

:43:04.:43:07.

the board. Louise Mensch surprising that you and fellow female MPs

:43:07.:43:11.

didn't do anything about it? Well I think that you know when I was in

:43:11.:43:16.

parliament the issue of the breast implants scandal came up, I'm very

:43:16.:43:18.

glad the government is doing something about it now. My job

:43:18.:43:22.

really was on the Culture, Media and Sport Commitee, perhaps if I

:43:22.:43:26.

had been on the health committee I would have asked people to look at

:43:26.:43:30.

it. It is great the Government is doing something about it. We can't

:43:30.:43:33.

totally level the blame at the plastic surgery, when we talk about

:43:33.:43:38.

body image, let's talk about Photoshop in magazines. Women are

:43:38.:43:41.

held to an impossible ideal because they are constantly shown aim

:43:41.:43:45.

imagines of women's bodies that are impossible to achieve, day in day

:43:45.:43:49.

out by the fashion and beauty industry. I think that Photoshop,

:43:49.:43:55.

which some women MPs have been campaigning against, and air

:43:55.:43:58.

brushed pictures contribute to the problem that many young women have.

:43:58.:44:02.

We looked at advertising very, very careful on the committee. One of

:44:02.:44:07.

the things that was alarming was some of the adverts of before and

:44:07.:44:11.

after, they are clearly not the same person. This is for cosmetic

:44:11.:44:15.

surgery? Before and after is clearly not the same person. The

:44:15.:44:17.

Advertising Standards Authority have to tighten up controls of this.

:44:17.:44:22.

We would like to see a ban on misleading adverts entirely. This

:44:22.:44:26.

is where the review falls down, while it is brilliant to see it,

:44:26.:44:29.

there is a significant inconsistency in the report which

:44:29.:44:34.

could mean that it falls far short of making any kind of inroads, we

:44:34.:44:39.

could end up if these recommendations are implemented

:44:39.:44:43.

where non-invasive procedures, the advertising of them is more heavily

:44:43.:44:48.

regulated than invasive procedures. Because the recommendation is that

:44:48.:44:53.

non-invasive ones, such as injections that they are treated as

:44:53.:44:56.

prescription-only medicine which means they can't be advertised.

:44:56.:45:01.

have been portraying women as victims of a particular sort of

:45:01.:45:04.

representation. There is an argument that says we have become a

:45:04.:45:10.

more narcissistic society? All of us? OK, but in the case of, that's

:45:10.:45:14.

an abstract debate that you can have. Let's be clear what we are

:45:14.:45:18.

talking about, we are talking about an industry that makes millions

:45:18.:45:22.

every year and at the heart of that has been a relentless, aggressive,

:45:22.:45:27.

marketing campaign which actively works to persuade women to undergo

:45:27.:45:32.

medically unnecessary invasive surgery. I would like to see the

:45:32.:45:36.

Government take this report and make sure it is consistent so that

:45:36.:45:40.

we end the advertising of invasive cosmetic surgery. We certainly want

:45:40.:45:44.

to put far more controls, particularly on the consent

:45:44.:45:47.

procedure. We have to stop people going for cosmetic surgery and

:45:47.:45:50.

having it sold to them like it is double glazing. That really has to

:45:50.:45:55.

stop. One of the things we have recommended is a two-stage consent

:45:55.:46:00.

process with a cooling off prd. And your consent -- period. And the

:46:00.:46:04.

consent is done bit surgeon doing your surgery. We can't have a

:46:04.:46:08.

situation where a person going to a clinic and seen by a sales person,

:46:08.:46:11.

told they could have a proceed du, then the doctor flies in, does the

:46:11.:46:17.

operation and flies out again. That has to stop. The same doctor after

:46:17.:46:21.

the procedure. Very often I have had cosmetic surgery and not seen

:46:21.:46:24.

the same doctor afterLuiz Eduardo. What do you hope will come out of

:46:24.:46:27.

it? I hope they tighten the regulations and you have a

:46:27.:46:30.

consultation and you have a certain amount of cooling off period of

:46:30.:46:35.

time. I do hope that the advertising cools down. It is

:46:35.:46:39.

ridiculous to say that we should stop retouching magazines and it is

:46:40.:46:42.

all the problem is media and everything else. That's ridiculous,

:46:42.:46:47.

what are you going to do, put ugly people on TV. Where did you get an

:46:47.:46:51.

idea of what you should look like? I think that's, there is loads of

:46:51.:46:54.

different reasons isn't there. There is upbringing, there is

:46:54.:46:57.

schools, you can see a beautiful girl in the Post Office and aspire

:46:58.:47:04.

to be her, it is ridiculous to blame it on the media. The thing is

:47:04.:47:08.

let's put the rules in place, let's tighten it up and that would

:47:08.:47:13.

certainly help. Make it safe. you all very much. That's all we

:47:13.:47:23.
:47:23.:47:31.

Hello, on Thursday a typical spring day across the northern part of the

:47:31.:47:36.

UK. With lots of sunshine and some showers, April showers, heavy one,

:47:36.:47:40.

with hail and thunder in places too. Let's look at the scene across the

:47:40.:47:43.

north. As we go through Thursday afternoon, here it is, some

:47:43.:47:48.

sunshine here, one or two heavy showers. Across Scotland it will be

:47:48.:47:53.

noticable if you catch them. Temperatures 10 in Aberdeen, nine

:47:53.:47:56.

in Edinburgh. An increasing breeze as well. Northern England,

:47:56.:48:01.

different story here, nor layered cloud, bits and pieces of rain, the

:48:01.:48:05.

real warmth will be across East Anglia and the south-east. This is

:48:05.:48:12.

the last day with recent temperatures across the south

:48:12.:48:18.

eet,up to 23 degrees in some places. We get into Wales, lots of cloud

:48:18.:48:23.

and a bit of rain too. Western fringes of Wales will get a little

:48:23.:48:26.

brightness towards the second half of the afternoon. This is the

:48:26.:48:30.

outlooks a we head towards the end of the week. Temperatures in the

:48:30.:48:34.

north with single figures with hail and thunder in places. A dip in the

:48:34.:48:38.

temperature for southern part of the UK. London will feel a big

:48:38.:48:43.

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