Browse content similar to 25/04/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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The United States has decided that chemical weapons have been used in | :00:13. | :00:20. | |
the Civil War in Syria. What now? Remember this? If you make the | :00:20. | :00:23. | |
tragic mistake of using these weapons there will be consequences | :00:23. | :00:29. | |
and you will be held accountable. Today's accusation is incendiary, | :00:29. | :00:34. | |
can they prove it? We will speak to the former | :00:34. | :00:38. | |
presidential candidate, Senator John McCain, who believes the | :00:38. | :00:42. | |
United States has to act. Also tonight, official figures show the | :00:42. | :00:47. | |
economy isn't in recession, but does that add up to a growth | :00:47. | :00:52. | |
strategy. As rescuers continue the frantic | :00:52. | :00:58. | |
search for survivors of the Bangladesh garment factory fire. We | :00:58. | :01:04. | |
explore the appetite for cheap clothes has created there. With our | :01:04. | :01:14. | |
:01:14. | :01:17. | ||
guests we ask who is gaining most from this trade? | :01:17. | :01:21. | |
Chemical weapons have been used in the Civil War in Syria. Both | :01:21. | :01:25. | |
Washington and London say they believe the evidence is persuasive. | :01:25. | :01:30. | |
Now Barack Obama has already said that if President Assad were to | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
start using chemical weapons he would be crossing a red line which | :01:34. | :01:37. | |
would change everything. Yet the White House hasn't threatened | :01:37. | :01:41. | |
American military action in Syria. The approach is in great contrast | :01:41. | :01:45. | |
to the controversial assertions about Saddam Hussein's supposed | :01:45. | :01:49. | |
weapons of mass destruction. Senior Republican figures though say the | :01:49. | :01:53. | |
evidence is compelling enough for America now to start giving guns to | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
the opposition. Here is what the US Secretary of State of defence, | :01:57. | :02:03. | |
Chuck Hagel, said earlier. The US intelligence community assesss with | :02:03. | :02:07. | |
some degree of varying confidence that the Syrian regime has used | :02:07. | :02:14. | |
chemical weapons on a small scale in Syria. Specifically the chemical | :02:14. | :02:18. | |
agent sarin. As I have said, the intelligence community has been | :02:18. | :02:20. | |
assessing information for some time on this issue. The decision to | :02:20. | :02:26. | |
reach this conclusion was made within the past 24 hours. | :02:26. | :02:31. | |
diplomatic editor is here. What sort of attacks are we talking | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
about by the Syrians? There have been incidents we have known about, | :02:35. | :02:41. | |
if we plot them on the map one was late last year near Homs in central | :02:41. | :02:46. | |
Syria, another last month near Aleppo in the north. That at the | :02:46. | :02:51. | |
time many explained as a shell shitting a chemical depot and | :02:51. | :02:56. | |
releasing some chlorine, not nerve gas, not sarin. After that a couple | :02:56. | :03:01. | |
of villages near Damascus were said to be the site of the attacks. | :03:01. | :03:07. | |
Today's accusations about sarin. That is a nerve agent, a pin-head | :03:07. | :03:14. | |
drop sized bit of that could kill many people. These incidents only | :03:14. | :03:18. | |
involved a few people. So it is still a mystery whether the persons | :03:18. | :03:23. | |
have got something new. They have talked about an intelligence | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
assessment formed in the last few hours. The American line is very | :03:26. | :03:30. | |
uncertain? It is clearly uncertain. Today's news, sparked by the | :03:30. | :03:35. | |
release of a letter to Senator McCain and others from a White | :03:35. | :03:40. | |
House legal council. They say they assess with varying degrees of | :03:40. | :03:48. | |
confidence. That is an alluding to that there are agency differences | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
that what it means that the Syrian regime has used chemical weapons, | :03:52. | :03:57. | |
on a small scale, specifically sarin, that nerve agent. Then it | :03:57. | :04:04. | |
says this a sment is based, in part, on -- assessment is based, in part, | :04:04. | :04:07. | |
on physiological samples. There are suggestions there that the | :04:07. | :04:10. | |
Americans may have looked at people who might have been affected, maybe | :04:10. | :04:13. | |
blood or hair or other tissue. It is known that they have got people | :04:13. | :04:18. | |
on the ground, these different countries, looking for evidence. | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
With the opposition forces, and they have given them equipment like | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
this. This is a French chemical agent monitor, a French army one. A | :04:26. | :04:30. | |
more sophisticated version of the same. You can sample the air or put | :04:30. | :04:36. | |
a sample in here for analysis. Also looking for biological weapons this | :04:36. | :04:41. | |
device could help you detect the presence of those live agents like | :04:41. | :04:49. | |
antthrax and plague -- an thrak and plague. Even if you make the claim | :04:49. | :04:54. | |
as Britain and France did last week it is hard to butress it. According | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
to one export here. I wouldn't believe they would say that unless | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
they had seen credible evidence to that degree. The challenge and the | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
reason we haven't seen activity from the crossing of the red line | :05:06. | :05:11. | |
is because that evidence is not, it doesn't follow all the rules of | :05:11. | :05:21. | |
chain of forensic evidence. It is not absolutely conclusive. We don't | :05:21. | :05:25. | |
know who used the chemical weapons. It could be the regime, it could be | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
the Syrian opposition. That is the factor missing at the moment. | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
do you think the Americans will do about it? The political position | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
would seem to be quite clear, wouldn't it. Based on that | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
statement from President Obama late last year. Let's remind ourselves | :05:39. | :05:46. | |
of that have again. The world is watching. The use of chemical | :05:46. | :05:53. | |
weapons is and would be totally unacceptable. If you make the | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
tragic mistake of using these weapons there will be consequences | :05:56. | :06:02. | |
and you will be held accountable. Now, that puts the President in a | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
very, very tricky situation. He can't suppress evidence that's | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
coming to light and hence you have today's disclosure. On the other | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
hand if you announce it, it creates an imperative for action. Could it | :06:14. | :06:19. | |
be military action? Well we know there are contingency teams of | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
specialists, Special Forces, chemical weapons experts in place | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
in Turkey and Jordan. But in the short-term he may be thinking of | :06:26. | :06:32. | |
something not quite as escaltory as that, perhaps a new diplomatic | :06:32. | :06:37. | |
offensive to try to get UN inspectors into the country. | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
Senator John McCain was the man who brought about today's revelations | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
after writing to President Obama asking him to reveal what evidence | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
is known about the use of chemical weapons. He received the White | :06:48. | :06:58. | |
:06:58. | :06:58. | ||
House's reply today. He joins us now. The samples referred to, | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
physiological samples, do you know anything more about what they were? | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
No, our chairperson of the Senate Intelligence Committee, who has | :07:05. | :07:09. | |
more information than I do said that it is without a doubt that he | :07:09. | :07:15. | |
has crossed the red line. The Israeli intelligence alleged the | :07:15. | :07:21. | |
same. Your British intelligence spokesman said we have limited but | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
persuasive information from various sources. But I would like to make | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
two points, one, why are we worried about that? We should have | :07:28. | :07:33. | |
intervened a long, long time ago. We have watched 70,000 people being | :07:33. | :07:38. | |
massacred, destablising the neighbouring countries, Jihadists | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
pouring into the country. Why should the litmus taste be a red | :07:42. | :07:48. | |
line of use of these weapons when the President has given these | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
people, Bashar al-Assad, the green light to massacre his own people | :07:52. | :07:57. | |
and destablise the entire region. And second of all, should anybody | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
be surprised if Bashar al-Assad used a chemical weapon. He has said | :08:01. | :08:06. | |
and shown he will do anything necessary to stay in power. In your | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
judgment, whatever the rights and wrongs of what President Obama has | :08:10. | :08:15. | |
or has not done, the tipping point has now been reached where he has | :08:15. | :08:23. | |
to act? I believe that he had to act two years ago. So I can't, I | :08:23. | :08:33. | |
wouldn't be surprised at all if the White House said well as your | :08:33. | :08:39. | |
people are discussing this saying we need more he have evidence -- | :08:39. | :08:44. | |
evidence and we need more evidence. They are very clear that this White | :08:44. | :08:49. | |
House, watching Iraq deteriorate, equiffcating on a force leaving | :08:49. | :08:55. | |
behind in Afghanistan and a statement that the "tide of war is | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
receding", doesn't want to be involved. I'm sorry if I'm cynical | :08:59. | :09:03. | |
but I have watched the withdrawal of the US and the consequences for | :09:03. | :09:09. | |
which we will pay a heavy price for in the future. Do you think his | :09:09. | :09:19. | |
:09:19. | :09:23. | ||
credibility is at stake? I don't know. He has an adoring media, so I | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
don't know. His credibility evaporated when he said he wouldn't | :09:27. | :09:32. | |
do anything to these people unless there was chemical weapons, giving | :09:32. | :09:37. | |
a green light for Bashar al-Assad to massacre his people. I wish the | :09:37. | :09:41. | |
BBC would go to these refugee camps and see the people who have been | :09:42. | :09:45. | |
raped, tortured skilled and driven out of their home. Destablising | :09:45. | :09:52. | |
Lebanon and Jordan where they have had to flee to. And Jihadists | :09:52. | :09:58. | |
fleeing in from all over the world. All the consequences that would | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
happen if we intervened have taken place if we didn't intervene. | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
would be equally unacceptable, would it not, if the chemical | :10:06. | :10:11. | |
weapons were to fall into the hands of the anti-Government forces? | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
depends on whose hands it falls into. If two years ago we had | :10:14. | :10:20. | |
established the safe zone, which we still need to do, helped organise, | :10:20. | :10:26. | |
train, equip and govern, as we did as in Benghazi in Libya we wouldn't | :10:26. | :10:32. | |
face the problem. Yet we need to be ready to go in or have, let me be | :10:32. | :10:38. | |
careful with my choice of words here, make sure these chemical | :10:38. | :10:43. | |
cachets of chemical weapons are secured and do not fall into the | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
wrong hands. The more Jihadists that go in, the greater their | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
influence and more likely they get hold of these weapons. You are | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
conceding that if the chemical weapons, which everyone is so | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
alarmed about, if they are such a risk, the only thing the United | :10:59. | :11:07. | |
States and her allies can do is to secure them herself? Well it | :11:07. | :11:12. | |
depends again. If we gave the resistance and the people that | :11:12. | :11:18. | |
should, the good people that are fighting for the freedom of the | :11:18. | :11:26. | |
Syrian people if we gave them the wherewithal to fight and defend | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
themselves we wouldn't have had to worry about them if it happened a | :11:30. | :11:34. | |
year ago. A year on there may be a superiority of them. The trend is | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
in the wrong direction. Its our fault, not their's. I wonder if you | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
look at the experience of Afghanistan and indeed elsewhere in | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
the world, early days of Iraq for example, whether we actually know | :11:46. | :11:52. | |
for sure who the good guys are? sure I can tell you, I have met | :11:52. | :11:55. | |
with them. I have met with the good guy, I know who they are, and so | :11:55. | :12:00. | |
does everybody else. But they feel betrayed. They are bitter and angry. | :12:00. | :12:08. | |
I was in a refugee camp in Jordan and this woman said see all these | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
children they will take revenge on the people who refused to help them. | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
I know who she was talking about. These are the sort of people you | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
think you can trust with chemical weapons? I'm not saying I could | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
trust them with chemical weapons, but I could trust the people I know | :12:21. | :12:24. | |
that are the leaders of the National Council and the national | :12:24. | :12:29. | |
army that I could trust them, yes, I could trust them. They would need | :12:29. | :12:33. | |
our assistance, but I would be very reluctant to put American boots on | :12:33. | :12:38. | |
the ground. What about the position of Russia? We keep beating that | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
drum. How many times are we going to see that movie, it will be the | :12:42. | :12:45. | |
Russians, they will take Bashar al- Assad, that was two years ago. New | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
York Times still keeps saying it. It is becoming, if it wasn't so sad | :12:49. | :12:56. | |
it would be amusing. That we are relying on Russia to make Bashar | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
al-Assad behave. The Iranians are now training Syrians and bringing | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
them back. Hezbollah is there on the ground, the Iranians are on the | :13:03. | :13:10. | |
ground. Russian arms supplies have ined, that is doing a lot of good - | :13:10. | :13:13. | |
- increased, that is doing a lot of good isn't it. Hang out the bunting | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
and three cheers for George Osborne we are not in recession, we are not | :13:17. | :13:20. | |
in yet another recession right now, on the basis of figures which may | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
yet be modified. The fact that a growth rate in the first quarter of | :13:24. | :13:30. | |
this year of 0.3% can be treated like the second coming tells you a | :13:30. | :13:33. | |
lot about the state of the British economy. But we shouldn't be too | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
dismissive of small mercies for there aren't any bigger ones on | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
offer. One for Comrade Mason, I think. | :13:39. | :13:47. | |
If you are the kind of person that gets annoyed when economic stories | :13:47. | :13:55. | |
start nought point something. Today's nought 0.3% growth is small | :13:55. | :14:00. | |
but it is something we can expect. It means the UK economy has grown | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
by �5 billion more in the last three months than it did three | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
months before Christmas. It is not much, but politically it is enough. | :14:07. | :14:13. | |
It saved goorn a lot of trouble. -- George Osborne a lot of trouble. | :14:13. | :14:17. | |
This is a modern depression, the graph shows the size of the economy | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
which fell dramatically during the financial crisis of 2008 and has | :14:20. | :14:25. | |
not recovered. Despite today's positive figure. If you look at how | :14:25. | :14:30. | |
the economy expanded since 2000 you can see what's lost. This dotted | :14:30. | :14:33. | |
line shows the long-term trend. The gap between that and where we are | :14:33. | :14:40. | |
is growth that can never come back. I think it is more politically | :14:40. | :14:42. | |
important than economically important. Anything in the region | :14:42. | :14:49. | |
of minus two to plus two would have shown we were stagnant. Being | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
positive is fractionally better. It is only half the growth rate which | :14:53. | :14:56. | |
in the past we would have considered normal trend growth. It | :14:56. | :15:01. | |
is very slow indeed. If you look at the detail, nearly all the growth | :15:01. | :15:06. | |
from January to March came from the service sector, that added 0.5% to | :15:06. | :15:10. | |
GDP, but that was offset by stagnant manufacture and a | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
shrinking construction sector, together with agriculture, also | :15:14. | :15:22. | |
shrinking, subtracted 0.2%, leaving the final figure 0.3%. If you could | :15:23. | :15:25. | |
speed construction up, or even stop it shrinking you could have a | :15:25. | :15:31. | |
recovery. That is not what the plan is. When they designed the | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
austerity plan in 2010, the Government said really clearly it | :15:35. | :15:39. | |
wouldn't work unless the UK economy rebalanced, away from high finance | :15:39. | :15:44. | |
and house prices and towards exports and manufacturing. Today's | :15:44. | :15:48. | |
figure show really clearly that's not happening. That is why the | :15:48. | :15:54. | |
political size of relief -- sighs of relief were not that big. These | :15:54. | :15:57. | |
are encouraging signs the economy is healing. Despite a tough | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
economic situation we are making progress. Of course we have still | :16:00. | :16:04. | |
got difficult decisions to take, there aren't easy answers. People | :16:04. | :16:08. | |
understand that. But that's what we have to do. We have to go on taking | :16:08. | :16:10. | |
those difficult decisions and fronting those problems if we are | :16:10. | :16:15. | |
going to build an economy fit for the future. What can the Government | :16:15. | :16:20. | |
do? The UK's top civil servant recently let slip there are too | :16:20. | :16:23. | |
many answers. Vince Cable wants to fix the banks, George Osborne to | :16:23. | :16:27. | |
fix the construction industry, David Cameron to boost exports and | :16:27. | :16:32. | |
Nick Clegg to boost the regions. think the Government recognises | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
that probably should have spoken more about growth at an earlier | :16:36. | :16:40. | |
stage, perhaps it should have pitched the whole strategy, | :16:40. | :16:45. | |
spending cuts and so on in terms of boosting growth. Now we are | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
flailing around trying a multistrand approach, four | :16:49. | :16:55. | |
different people pursuing four different basis for pursuing growth, | :16:55. | :17:00. | |
I don't think that is the best idea. One economist from a think-tank has | :17:00. | :17:03. | |
drawn handy map of all the options being presented to George Osborne. | :17:03. | :17:08. | |
What is your best guess at when we finally recover as an economy? | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
know I think it is just so hard to say. It really actually depends on | :17:12. | :17:20. | |
what George Osborne decides to do next, I think. What if he does | :17:20. | :17:24. | |
nothing? There is a danger we end up in the low-growth state bouncing | :17:24. | :17:32. | |
along the bottom. On a zero point something day, all | :17:33. | :17:38. | |
the data was sobering for manufacturing, it grew by a zer we | :17:38. | :17:44. | |
are becoming used to 0.0. David Gauke is here for his routine | :17:44. | :17:50. | |
appointment. When the Chancellor says the economy is healing, by | :17:50. | :17:55. | |
when will it be healed? It is an encouraging sign that the economy | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
is growing. That is what we have seen today. We have got a long way | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
to go, we have some fundamental problems that we have to address, | :18:02. | :18:09. | |
that built up over many years. We are making progress. We have seen a | :18:09. | :18:12. | |
1.25 million private sector jobs created, the deficit is down by a | :18:12. | :18:15. | |
third. We have low interest rates, there is encouraging signs but we | :18:15. | :18:21. | |
have a long way to go. Let's have a look at the chart this is the state | :18:21. | :18:26. | |
of the economy. You call that good do you? It is a difficult economic | :18:26. | :18:35. | |
climate and I don't look. That looks like a coma not a healing? | :18:35. | :18:38. | |
growth in the first quarter of the year. We are forecast to grow more | :18:38. | :18:42. | |
than France and Germany this year and next year. We want to be very | :18:42. | :18:46. | |
straight forward, these are difficult economic circumstances. | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
We see the eurozone in recession, we are recovering from a major | :18:51. | :18:55. | |
banking crisis. We have to deal with the big deficit. There is a | :18:55. | :19:01. | |
tiny bit of growth, a tiny bit of growth, negative growth, negative | :19:01. | :19:06. | |
growth, a bit more growth, negative growth, and a bit more growth. That | :19:06. | :19:11. | |
is not healing? We are forecast by the independent Office of Budget | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
Responsibility to grow this year. We have actually grown more than | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
people had predicted for this first quarter. And, as I say, we are | :19:18. | :19:22. | |
creating a lot of jobs in this country, private sector growth is | :19:22. | :19:29. | |
strong. We are also getting the deficit down by a third. If your | :19:29. | :19:31. | |
argument is these are difficult economic circumstances and growth | :19:31. | :19:35. | |
is not as strong as we would like it to be, I can't disagree with you. | :19:35. | :19:40. | |
I'm a taking you up on your leader's view that it is a healing. | :19:40. | :19:45. | |
I was wondering when we might be back to pre-crash levels? I'm not | :19:45. | :19:53. | |
here to make predictions. The forecast of the Office of Budget | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
Responsibility ...The Graph shows us what happens at least, you have | :19:56. | :20:00. | |
no idea what is going on. You have no idea what the next set of | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
figures are going to be like do you? I'm not making any predictions. | :20:04. | :20:07. | |
The Office of Budget Responsibility predicts we will grow as the year | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
goes on. It is an encouraging sign. We shouldn't deny that. But it is | :20:11. | :20:16. | |
in a climate that is difficult for the economy. Your bosses may made | :20:16. | :20:20. | |
predictions, I would like to remind you of his prediction of how we are | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
going to get out of the mess we are in. Let's hear what he had to say | :20:24. | :20:27. | |
about growth strategies? We want the words "made in Britain, created | :20:27. | :20:32. | |
in Britain, designed in Britain, invented in Britain" to drive our | :20:32. | :20:37. | |
nation forward. A Britain carried aloft by the march of the makers. | :20:37. | :20:41. | |
That is absolute rubbish, isn't it? What is striking about the | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
manufacturing numbers. I think the rubbish you are looking for is | :20:46. | :20:49. | |
"yes"! What is striking about the manufacturing numbers is if you | :20:49. | :20:54. | |
look at the domestic-facing parts of the economy, in the first | :20:54. | :20:57. | |
quarter of the year we did well, that is where the serves are. If | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
you look at manufacturing which relies on exports, it is a really | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
difficult time. There is another graph there, contribution of | :21:04. | :21:10. | |
manufacturing to growth of GDP, 0.0%, a negative quantity, a little | :21:10. | :21:16. | |
bit of positiveness, negative, neglective, 0.0, does that look to | :21:16. | :21:20. | |
you like growth? The position on manufacturing is clear. | :21:20. | :21:23. | |
Manufacturing depends to a very large extent upon our export | :21:24. | :21:28. | |
markets. That has been very, very difficult when the eurozone has | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
been in recession. It is also just worth pointing out that if you look | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
at the manufacturing numbers, we had a very, very bad January and a | :21:36. | :21:42. | |
bit of a recovery in February and March. Would you say we are being | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
carried aloft by the march of the makers, we are not? No. It was a | :21:46. | :21:51. | |
pretty Silvio thing to say? manufacturing has got to play an | :21:51. | :21:54. | |
important part in our recovery. It is very difficult when the eurozone | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
is in the state that it is in. When our manufacturing is quite so | :21:58. | :22:02. | |
dependant on that. That is why, for example, we need to do more to | :22:02. | :22:08. | |
export to the like of China and India and we have seen some drat | :22:08. | :22:12. | |
makes increases -- dramatic increases in exports to those | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
markets. We need to do more of that and that is a folks cuss of the | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
Government. But the strategy hasn't worked, clearly. You have just said | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
it hasn't worked because things are a bit difficult? The environment we | :22:22. | :22:27. | |
are in is difficult, nobody can deny that. Whoever was in | :22:27. | :22:29. | |
Government would have to wrestle with some of those prob epbl. I | :22:29. | :22:35. | |
come back to the point that we have create -- problems. I come back to | :22:35. | :22:39. | |
the point we have created 1.25 million private sector jobs. We | :22:39. | :22:42. | |
have low interest rates and maintained the credibility of the | :22:42. | :22:46. | |
markets, and we have reduced the deficit by a third. It would be | :22:46. | :22:51. | |
lovely if everything was rosy and the world economy was growing great | :22:51. | :22:54. | |
guns, that isn't the wags we are in, and it is difficult for the British | :22:54. | :23:03. | |
people. But the evidence we saw -- position we are n it is difficult | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
but there is evidence that the position we are in there is growth. | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
How about Chorley wood, are people happy there? They are, it is a | :23:11. | :23:14. | |
happy place. People think the economy is getting better and | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
better, because your experience is doubtless the same as most people's | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
experience in that they are very unhappy out there. There is a | :23:22. | :23:26. | |
microclimate in Chorleywood is it? It is a very nice place to live. | :23:26. | :23:30. | |
There are different experiences in different parts of the country, I | :23:30. | :23:36. | |
don't deny that. We face some significant challenges. The economy | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
is growing, it is forecast to continue to grow. It is forecast to | :23:40. | :23:45. | |
grow faster than in France or Germany. If we have huge steps to | :23:45. | :23:50. | |
take like the help to buy process, Funding For Lending, it is why we | :23:50. | :23:53. | |
are switching expenditure to current capital to improve our | :23:53. | :23:56. | |
infrastructure. It is why we have got ourselves the most competitive | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
tax system in the G20. That is the direction we are going in. That is | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
why we are looking at the rules and regulations that inhibit businesses | :24:04. | :24:07. | |
from growing. Those are steps a sensible Government has to take. | :24:07. | :24:14. | |
What isn't the answer and we haven't turned to this is to go on | :24:14. | :24:18. | |
some spending a borrowing splurge, that would be a huge mistake. | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
tiring being so optimistic all the time? We have some real challenges. | :24:22. | :24:27. | |
We have been realistic. It is healing? On the evidence of today's | :24:27. | :24:33. | |
numbers it is. On the evidence of the 1.25 new jobs created in the | :24:33. | :24:37. | |
private sector and the deficit has come down. You have no idea what | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
the figures will be next time round? Those are the figures we | :24:40. | :24:42. | |
have at the moment in difficult circumstances. This is a difficult | :24:42. | :24:47. | |
time for the economy. And we accept that, whether it is in Chorleywood | :24:47. | :24:51. | |
or elsewhere. But we are making difficult decision at a time when | :24:51. | :24:56. | |
there are big challenges. Thank you very much. The precise | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
figures are elusive, but it seems that about 250 people may have been | :25:00. | :25:04. | |
killed in the collapse of a building, where Bangladeshi workers | :25:04. | :25:09. | |
made western clothing. Household name companies are now suddenly | :25:09. | :25:13. | |
publicity shy for the tragedy raises nasty Questions. Whose fault | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
is it? The factory boss who is kept one of the people in one of the | :25:18. | :25:23. | |
poorest countries on earth at their machines despite warnings. The poor | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
construction that seems endemic in Bangladesh. The western retailers | :25:28. | :25:35. | |
whose appetite for profits keeps the orders rolling. You and my | :25:35. | :25:40. | |
guiltless pleasure in consuming. We have this report. The full scale of | :25:40. | :25:49. | |
this catastrophe is still emerging. The UK's Primark just one of many | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
western retailers buying clothes from factories inside the collapsed | :25:52. | :25:55. | |
building. The company says it is shocked and saddened by what | :25:55. | :26:00. | |
happened. But critics say the Bangladeshi | :26:00. | :26:10. | |
:26:10. | :26:12. | ||
garment industry was already cracking at the seams. This woman | :26:12. | :26:19. | |
has paid the price too. Thanks to the west's appetite for cheap | :26:19. | :26:27. | |
clothes she had a steady job in the industry. But then her daughter | :26:27. | :26:36. | |
started work in a factory too. Just a week later the plant caught fire, | :26:36. | :26:46. | |
:26:46. | :26:49. | ||
killing her and more than 100 other workers. From the charred ruins | :26:49. | :26:54. | |
emerged evidence of rampant cost cutting and safety abuses. Nearly | :26:54. | :27:03. | |
six months later no-one has been prosecuted or even arrested. Still | :27:03. | :27:12. | |
living near the abandoned factory her life is in ruins too. | :27:12. | :27:16. | |
TRANSLATION: I couldn't work after she died. Now I have to because we | :27:16. | :27:21. | |
are in debt. If I ever see the owner I will burn him alive. Just | :27:21. | :27:30. | |
like he burnt my child to ash and emptyed a mother's chest. | :27:30. | :27:35. | |
industry has grown fast, to fast say some. With new factories | :27:35. | :27:43. | |
opening all the time. Attacked by its cheap labour British retailers | :27:43. | :27:53. | |
:27:53. | :27:54. | ||
have flocked here. Turning Bangladesh into its bargain tamor | :27:54. | :27:59. | |
of choice. At this factory they make nearly 20 million garments a | :27:59. | :28:06. | |
year for major British brands. This plant is known for the high | :28:06. | :28:15. | |
standards. When the clothes leave here. They are ready to be put | :28:15. | :28:23. | |
straight on the shelves. You could say this is Bangladesh's Industrial | :28:23. | :28:28. | |
Revolution. Making cheap clothes for the UK and other western | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
markets, now employs millions of people. It is also helping to | :28:32. | :28:35. | |
empower Bangladeshi women. But the industry is under constant pressure | :28:35. | :28:40. | |
to keep costs down. While this is one of the better factories, in | :28:40. | :28:46. | |
others the practices that led to the fire still continue. The | :28:46. | :28:49. | |
capital, Dhaka, is full of smaller factories where safety standards | :28:49. | :28:57. | |
and working conditions are much worse. To keep costs down it is an | :28:57. | :29:00. | |
open secret that many companies often sub contract to these | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
sweatshop operations. The checking up is almost impossible. We have | :29:04. | :29:08. | |
learned that there are many back street operations in this part of | :29:08. | :29:12. | |
Dhaka doing sub-contracting work for other factories, including one | :29:12. | :29:16. | |
that has business with the UK. The only way to see for ourselves is to | :29:16. | :29:21. | |
use concealed cameras, some of our team are going to go inside, posing | :29:21. | :29:31. | |
:29:31. | :29:38. | ||
as local businessmen. The way in is the only exit, if there is a fire. | :29:38. | :29:45. | |
Buckets of sand the only equipment for fighting a blaze. On the shop | :29:45. | :29:55. | |
:29:55. | :29:56. | ||
floor we see children working, flouting the official ban. The | :29:56. | :30:01. | |
owner says almost all his work is sub-contracted from other factories | :30:01. | :30:05. | |
that use him secretly to fulfil their orders. Some of the clothes | :30:05. | :30:13. | |
made here have been destined for the UK. Even for factories with the | :30:13. | :30:17. | |
best reputations, the pressure is growing. Here they insist | :30:17. | :30:26. | |
everything is done in-house, with no sub-contractors. Our existing | :30:27. | :30:32. | |
customer, they are more vigilent now. They are frequently visiting | :30:32. | :30:38. | |
with notice and no notice. Wur also ourselves motivating people. We are | :30:38. | :30:42. | |
on high -- we are also ourselves motivating people, we are on high | :30:42. | :30:45. | |
alert and taking initiative. Definitely this is a wake-up call | :30:45. | :30:49. | |
for us. Do you think there needs to be more Government regulation? | :30:49. | :30:55. | |
have a regulation but the implementation is not about. From | :30:55. | :31:02. | |
the offices of her small labour union Nasma campaigns for better | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
conditions and workers' rights. It is risky work, last year one | :31:06. | :31:11. | |
organiser was found murdered. The case is still unsolved. She says | :31:11. | :31:16. | |
western buyers are complicit too for turning a blind eye to the | :31:16. | :31:23. | |
industry's cut-price practice. buyer is showing they are sleeping, | :31:23. | :31:30. | |
but really they are not sleeping. They know all the thing behind what | :31:30. | :31:35. | |
is going on and their showing they don't know anything. Their double | :31:35. | :31:38. | |
face is there. They are always cutting and asking for better | :31:39. | :31:44. | |
compliance. But some factories still have | :31:44. | :31:52. | |
questions to answer. We follow one of the Government's new fire | :31:52. | :32:02. | |
:32:02. | :32:14. | ||
This plant also make clothes for the UK. Then they test a smoke | :32:14. | :32:24. | |
:32:24. | :32:24. | ||
alarm. It doesn't work. It is an embarrassing and potentially deadly | :32:24. | :32:34. | |
:32:34. | :32:37. | ||
lapse. The plastic seals are still on the battery. With so many | :32:38. | :32:42. | |
Bangladeshis on the wrong side of the track, in this densely | :32:42. | :32:44. | |
populated country, it desperately needs the jobs the clothes business | :32:44. | :32:54. | |
provides. The Government says it is determined to improve conditions | :32:54. | :33:00. | |
and to close down the worst franc tros. But the message to -- | :33:00. | :33:04. | |
factories, but the message to western countries is "don't push us | :33:04. | :33:08. | |
too hard". If they really want this human rights to be maintained, that | :33:08. | :33:13. | |
is the biggest human right, the right for survival, the right for a | :33:13. | :33:16. | |
better life. That is very important. Number two is there must be also | :33:16. | :33:24. | |
ready to pay us the real wages. is not clear if any extra money | :33:24. | :33:34. | |
:33:34. | :33:38. | ||
would actually reach the people who need it most. Six months since her | :33:38. | :33:45. | |
daughter's death Rumana finally build up the courage to visit her | :33:45. | :33:54. | |
grave. Now hundreds of other Bangladeshis are mourning. And the | :33:54. | :34:01. | |
price of feeding the west's hunger for cheap clothes keeps rising. To | :34:01. | :34:08. | |
talk about this we are joined by Jeff Banks, a fashion designer and | :34:08. | :34:14. | |
who launched the fashion chain Warehouse, he also launched the | :34:14. | :34:20. | |
Clothes Show. Katharine Hammnett, who has campaigned since the 1980s | :34:20. | :34:25. | |
for better ethics in the fashion industry and a designer. And | :34:25. | :34:29. | |
Rushanara Ali, was born in Bangladesh and looks into the | :34:29. | :34:33. | |
industry in India. Who benefits most from the trade? | :34:33. | :34:38. | |
think it is 50/50. There is a desire in the west to keep on | :34:38. | :34:42. | |
buying economical clothes. I think we are all guilty of it. I would | :34:42. | :34:47. | |
like to say I think that the clothing industry generally tonight | :34:47. | :34:51. | |
is grossly ashamed of what's gone on in the last week in Bangladesh. | :34:51. | :34:57. | |
I think it's actually having a riveting effect on a lot of chief | :34:57. | :35:01. | |
executives as the way they handle their business going forward. | :35:01. | :35:05. | |
Regretably it has had an effect. On the other side, I do believe that | :35:05. | :35:10. | |
nations that are actually endeavouring to pull themselves up | :35:10. | :35:16. | |
by the bootstraps do look forward to this kind of manufacturing and | :35:16. | :35:21. | |
I'm afraid these indiscretions, even though the majority of | :35:21. | :35:26. | |
companies retain companies to look after the efficiency with which | :35:26. | :35:31. | |
things are dealt with, some slip through the net. Katharine Hammnett | :35:31. | :35:37. | |
who do you think benefits from this trade? From this, the people at the | :35:37. | :35:43. | |
top of the big brands, the people that are floating around in their | :35:43. | :35:47. | |
�100 million yachts. You would accept that clearly in terms of the | :35:47. | :35:50. | |
employment and national income it has benefits for a country like | :35:50. | :35:54. | |
Bangladesh this trade? It is one of their biggest exports. Wait the | :35:54. | :35:58. | |
workers are paid and treated, it is hard to say whether they are better | :35:58. | :36:04. | |
off. I suppose they just manage to eat. But a lot of this | :36:04. | :36:09. | |
manufacturing goes on in export processing zones which are actually | :36:09. | :36:16. | |
exempt from even local labour laws. Any dissent or demands for higher | :36:16. | :36:21. | |
wage or attempts at collective bargaining are assessed by the | :36:21. | :36:25. | |
military. It has a he will had of a long way to go. Rushanara Ali, | :36:25. | :36:29. | |
would you accept it is a lot to do with corruption in Bangladesh and | :36:29. | :36:32. | |
people not implementing regulation that should be, it is not entirely | :36:32. | :36:37. | |
the fault of western retailers? think that the fault lies with both | :36:37. | :36:44. | |
the companies of those countries, like Bangladesh, as well as the | :36:44. | :36:50. | |
businesses, western businesses that are involved in there. I do believe | :36:50. | :36:53. | |
they have a much greater responsibility to work toward | :36:53. | :36:58. | |
having basic minimum standard. These are multibillion pound | :36:58. | :37:04. | |
operations. Around the world. In garments factories. If they | :37:04. | :37:08. | |
exercised their influence and power to ensure the conditions were met | :37:08. | :37:12. | |
you would have better results. Countries like Bangladesh need the | :37:12. | :37:16. | |
inLuiz Eduardo investment. The Governments would take action if | :37:16. | :37:19. | |
business applied its pressure appropriately. That is not | :37:19. | :37:23. | |
happening. It is very peace meal what they do. -- piecemeal had a | :37:23. | :37:26. | |
they. Do I have seen some of the work they do, it is good work but | :37:26. | :37:31. | |
insignificant compared to the scale of the problem. In the case of this | :37:31. | :37:34. | |
particular tragedy, we know there was a crack in the building, | :37:34. | :37:38. | |
warnings were given about it, the warnings were ignored, people felt | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
compelled to go to work. What responsibility is that of a British | :37:42. | :37:45. | |
or European retailer or importer? There should be, I believe there | :37:45. | :37:50. | |
should be international agreements on basic minimum labour standards | :37:50. | :37:54. | |
and conditions, within which businesses can operate effectively. | :37:54. | :37:57. | |
It is true businesses can't enforce those changes on their own, they | :37:58. | :38:02. | |
have a very important role to play. Reputationally there is huge damage | :38:02. | :38:08. | |
to businesses and their brands. It is not really in the interests of | :38:08. | :38:11. | |
the business or the country concerned, if there is a case of | :38:11. | :38:14. | |
irresponsible capitalism, this is a clear example of it and business | :38:14. | :38:18. | |
need to step up. You said some businesses are beginning to | :38:18. | :38:24. | |
recognise it? Many of the companies named there Next, Tesco, they | :38:24. | :38:31. | |
employ a group called Suvaro, based in Hong Kong, they would have | :38:31. | :38:35. | |
170,000 employees that are retained to go and ensure that standards of | :38:35. | :38:39. | |
minimum wages, hospital arrangements, number of toilets per | :38:39. | :38:44. | |
head, all of those things are abided by. And they what advise | :38:44. | :38:49. | |
companies to withdraw should shows not be complied with. The question | :38:49. | :38:56. | |
mark over this build something would that organisation have had a | :38:56. | :38:59. | |
structural engineer look at the safety of the building. I think not. | :39:00. | :39:03. | |
We don't know that? Having said that, the chairman of Matalan | :39:03. | :39:07. | |
issued a directive to awful his procurement people that in future | :39:07. | :39:13. | |
that has to be added to the list. The what are son is, you think | :39:13. | :39:19. | |
about the old sweat -- comparisons is this, you think about the old | :39:19. | :39:22. | |
factories here and weaving factories and the like, conditions | :39:22. | :39:26. | |
were pretty terrible. Can we expect to have similar conditions in the | :39:26. | :39:30. | |
developing world to the sort of conditions we expect to take for | :39:30. | :39:32. | |
granted here? We should have similar standards. I think we | :39:32. | :39:39. | |
should have a decent living minimum wage, we should have freedom of | :39:39. | :39:43. | |
association, access to healthcare, building regulation check. I think | :39:44. | :39:46. | |
that actually you could have legislation in those countries, but | :39:46. | :39:50. | |
it doesn't seem to work, we actually need to have legislation | :39:50. | :39:55. | |
in our countries that goods coming into our countries are certificated | :39:56. | :39:59. | |
to these standards and inspected properly to force the change. The | :39:59. | :40:03. | |
problem is, the big brands are really happy. The Chinese | :40:03. | :40:08. | |
Government official told me once that the reason they haven't | :40:08. | :40:12. | |
improved their labour standards, their human rights, is because the | :40:12. | :40:17. | |
big brands were pressuring them not to. The key thing will be, let me | :40:17. | :40:22. | |
play you a bit of tape, this afternoon we went out to talk to | :40:22. | :40:25. | |
the people just outside Primark. Their views are quite interesting. | :40:25. | :40:31. | |
It is very short, just listen to it. Have you heard about the factory | :40:31. | :40:36. | |
collapseded in Bangladesh? No. people have been killed. One of the | :40:36. | :40:44. | |
shops they supply to is Primark. didn't know that. Will that affect | :40:44. | :40:49. | |
whether or not you go to Primark? Yes. Why? That is outrageous. If I | :40:49. | :40:53. | |
had known that before I went in I wouldn't have gone in. Why do you | :40:53. | :40:59. | |
shop in Primark? Because it is cheap. For the price. Do you worry | :40:59. | :41:06. | |
about where and how it is made? Not at all. What a pity, but not at | :41:06. | :41:11. | |
all. Do you ever think about where they are made? I know they are made | :41:11. | :41:20. | |
in Bangladesh and I have heard the news about it collapsing. I'm a | :41:20. | :41:24. | |
lecturer and we were talking about it today. Why did you still go in? | :41:24. | :41:29. | |
These don't say Bangladesh I don't know where they were made. What did | :41:29. | :41:34. | |
you buy? A T-shirt and basic things. What did you make of the story when | :41:34. | :41:39. | |
you saw the pictures of the factory collapse, more than 200 people | :41:39. | :41:45. | |
died? I felt bad for them, then I thought a person alone not buying a | :41:45. | :41:49. | |
T-shirt in one shop wouldn't make a difference. What if everyone | :41:49. | :41:52. | |
stopped buying T-shirts? I hope they do, but I don't think that | :41:52. | :41:56. | |
time will come soon. We have got a different attitude to clothe, | :41:56. | :42:01. | |
haven't we. To the fact that you should be able some how to buy | :42:01. | :42:04. | |
cheap clothes. They are not intrinsically cheap? I think they | :42:04. | :42:09. | |
are cheap. When you look at prices back in the 1980s that if you look | :42:09. | :42:17. | |
at the price of a Lewin shirt at �20 these days, it was probably �79 | :42:17. | :42:21. | |
back in the 80s. The cost of clothing, relative to the rest of | :42:21. | :42:25. | |
the economy has remained permanently cheap. That is the | :42:25. | :42:28. | |
desire of the consumer. It is interesting what those people are | :42:28. | :42:33. | |
saying. I think if you don't comply, socially, I think the consumer will | :42:33. | :42:37. | |
vote with their wallet. I think a lot of people will be turned off | :42:37. | :42:42. | |
Primark as a result. The one thing I would like to say is that only 35 | :42:42. | :42:48. | |
years ago in streets not too far from here was the centre of the rag | :42:48. | :42:55. | |
trade. With sweat shops on every flour. In 1976 the minimum leaving | :42:55. | :43:01. | |
school age of a schoolgirl was raised to 16. Prior to that there | :43:01. | :43:06. | |
would be rows of 15-year-olds sitting on sewing machines. What we | :43:06. | :43:10. | |
expect in the west is the rest of the planet will catch up with the | :43:11. | :43:15. | |
situation today. When Katherine talks about Chinese situations, in | :43:15. | :43:21. | |
fact the Chinese textile development council employ over | :43:21. | :43:26. | |
2,500 people that look after the way human rights are actually | :43:26. | :43:30. | |
activated in China. A lot of the manufacturing that you go to now, | :43:30. | :43:33. | |
theity and standard of manufacturing and factories there | :43:33. | :43:37. | |
is higher than you would certainly get in a lot of western European | :43:37. | :43:43. | |
factories. Let's leave the Chinese, because we are at a bit of a loss | :43:43. | :43:47. | |
and specific references to China. When you look at the question of | :43:47. | :43:51. | |
consumer pressure and this industry, do you believe that such a thing as | :43:51. | :43:59. | |
an ethical rag trade is feasible? think consumers are driving it. The | :43:59. | :44:04. | |
rag trade by itself would probably have done nothing. But increased | :44:04. | :44:08. | |
consumer awareness of these issues is making people not buy things | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
because they are concerned about where they come from and how they | :44:11. | :44:15. | |
are made. Marks & Spencers have got figures on this which are | :44:15. | :44:18. | |
surprisingly high H something like 60% of consumers have not bought | :44:18. | :44:23. | |
something because of these kinds of concerns. I disagree. These are the | :44:23. | :44:29. | |
ones that are driving the industry to remove. Clothes have come down | :44:29. | :44:33. | |
and are incredibly cheap. They are not cheap when you consider the | :44:33. | :44:37. | |
true cost is paid in human suffering and environmental | :44:37. | :44:42. | |
degradation in the bottom of the ply chain. When you look at the | :44:42. | :44:47. | |
role of Government, the British Government or the EU, what can they | :44:47. | :44:52. | |
do? They have a very important responsibility to set the standards. | :44:52. | :45:01. | |
We have seen that with child labour. Years ago there was much concern | :45:01. | :45:05. | |
about child labour. Governments came together and companies worked | :45:05. | :45:08. | |
with the Governments to effect change. You need people to campaign | :45:08. | :45:13. | |
and Governments to act. I think it does concern me the comments that | :45:13. | :45:17. | |
Jeff has made. If we don't have high expectations, we are never | :45:17. | :45:22. | |
going to change anything. The idea that people's lives should be at | :45:22. | :45:26. | |
risk in those countries is just unacceptable. I represent the | :45:26. | :45:31. | |
constituency that had the rag trade. That doesn't make it OK that you | :45:31. | :45:36. | |
have the kinds of deaths and destruction in factories in those | :45:36. | :45:41. | |
countries. The pay is less than �1 a week in some of these places. The | :45:41. | :45:45. | |
majority of garments workers are women. It is clear those countries | :45:45. | :45:48. | |
need the investment and the economic development. But you | :45:48. | :45:53. | |
cannot have the kind of damage to people's lives that we have seen, | :45:53. | :45:57. | |
not just in Bangladesh, but Pakistan, numerous accidents. We | :45:57. | :46:00. | |
need business to work responsibly with Governments and we need | :46:00. | :46:04. | |
international agreements that are properly honoured. Businesses will | :46:04. | :46:09. | |
need to be required to act if they don't show results. We haven't seen | :46:09. | :46:13. | |
the kind of results we need to protect people. You have an | :46:13. | :46:17. | |
organisation that employs 170,000 people, acting own behalf of | :46:17. | :46:22. | |
companies like Tesco and Next, that are actually ensuring that the | :46:22. | :46:29. | |
requirement? They are the exemption peculiars. They are standard, it is | :46:29. | :46:33. | |
the odd few not necessarily doing T again the restriction in law, it | :46:33. | :46:37. | |
happened in India that the law was changed about people and | :46:37. | :46:40. | |
responsibilities in employment and pensions and immediately hundreds | :46:40. | :46:45. |